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Bruthaman
Aug 19th 2010, 01:55 AM
Your end reasoning... I don't disagree with at all.

Well the rest is just speculation anyway. I'm not saying the rest is fact at all. But my end reasoning is based on scripture. I just think that when the honey is flowing and the milk is churning, people as a whole tend to forget about where they come from or what God brought them out of. We grow complacent, selfish, and arrogant. I believe we live in that kind of generation, or at least that is the kind of generation that is being raised up today. We lived in a spoiled generation. What happens when all of that comes crashing down. What happens when civilization falls apart. Who do they turn to? What do you think Peter? It is only speculation, but I would like to know your opinion on the church and where it is currently headed.

amazzin
Aug 19th 2010, 02:04 AM
Well the rest is just speculation anyway. I'm not saying the rest is fact at all. But my end reasoning is based on scripture. I just think that when the honey is flowing and the milk is churning, people as a whole tend to forget about where they come from or what God brought them out of. We grow complacent, selfish, and arrogant. I believe we live in that kind of generation, or at least that is the kind of generation that is being raised up today. We lived in a spoiled generation. What happens when all of that comes crashing down. What happens when civilization falls apart. Who do they turn to? What do you think Peter? It is only speculation, but I would like to know your opinion on the church and where it is currently headed.

I'd hate to see a derail. Maybe a topic for a new thread. This is an area I love and would love to share my experiences.

ProjectPeter
Aug 19th 2010, 02:17 AM
Well the rest is just speculation anyway. I'm not saying the rest is fact at all. But my end reasoning is based on scripture. I just think that when the honey is flowing and the milk is churning, people as a whole tend to forget about where they come from or what God brought them out of. We grow complacent, selfish, and arrogant. I believe we live in that kind of generation, or at least that is the kind of generation that is being raised up today. We lived in a spoiled generation. What happens when all of that comes crashing down. What happens when civilization falls apart. Who do they turn to? What do you think Peter? It is only speculation, but I would like to know your opinion on the church and where it is currently headed.
Let's put it this way. I asked the church tonight... How many of you, looking around at what's going on around us, truly believe that the return of the Lord is very, very near and judgment on this world is certain... as in I'm likely going to see it happen? Every hand in the church went up. I then explained to them that I agree... but the rub is this. Before God judges this world... He will first judge His own house. The church. as it stands today and as a whole, will be judged and found seriously wanting. I was speaking primarily of Western Churches. We like to thank God that we're not like those third world nations... soon, those 3rd world nations will thank God they weren't like the western nations.

When it does come crashing down... we won't handle it well at all. We love our stuff too much... we'll be lost without it. We'll pine away over it... complain like the children of Israel and ultimately... many will simply curse God and die. Sadly... I figure that is how it will be and it is heart breaking.

ProjectPeter
Aug 19th 2010, 02:18 AM
Maybe not a bad idea... I can do some moving if I can remember how! :lol:

ProjectPeter
Aug 19th 2010, 02:22 AM
Okay... I actually remembered! Share away!

And folks... let's not use this to bash the church. It's still the body of Christ even though it's in a mess. I don't want to hamstring folks making it where they have to be so guarded they can't speak freely. Say what you say in love and again remember... it's the body of Christ and not something we just rag for giggles. It's a serious matter.

amazzin
Aug 19th 2010, 02:22 AM
Let's put it this way. I asked the church tonight... How many of you, looking around at what's going on around us, truly believe that the return of the Lord is very, very near and judgment on this world is certain... as in I'm likely going to see it happen? Every hand in the church went up. I then explained to them that I agree... but the rub is this. Before God judges this world... He will first judge His own house. The church. as it stands today and as a whole, will be judged and found seriously wanting. I was speaking primarily of Western Churches. We like to thank God that we're not like those third world nations... soon, those 3rd world nations will thank God they weren't like the western nations.

When it does come crashing down... we won't handle it well at all. We love our stuff too much... we'll be lost without it. We'll pine away over it... complain like the children of Israel and ultimately... many will simply curse God and die. Sadly... I figure that is how it will be and it is heart breaking.

Dang, I knew you' drag me into this screaming!!!!

The church! as a pastor with over 35 years of offical church minstry can say is damed. The church, as we see it today, is no different than the children of Israel that as long as there were miracles and manifestations they were happy. They pat themselves on the way out and say "wasn't that a great service"? Rather then staying behind all night in repentence for being found lacking. I'm not against a Holy Spirit filled altar time but alas its become the norm and true repentence the exception. It all production, copy cat TBN preaching and self anointed. The church today is a "whore" and when judgement comes the persecuted church will get the exalted positions and the western church will be found wanting.

Now excuse me, I think I just busted the soap box. I need to repair it for round 2

TrustingFollower
Aug 19th 2010, 03:41 AM
Now I am not a pastor, but I played one in a dream once so I must be qualified to have an opinion (just a little joke to lighten the mood). I agree with both ProjectPeter and Amazzin here. I think the church today is more concerned about stuff and how long it takes to get something done than we are about the souls affected by what we do. If we look at what just the apostle Paul went through for the cause of Christ I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that most people would have abandoned the faith. Not many people today would be willing to even sacrifice most of their possessions for the faith let alone their safety or health.

Most people today have conditional love for conditional grace from God. What I mean by that is most will except God's grace, but it has to be on their terms and thus makes it conditional. This is not just the fault of the pastors or evangelists, it's the fault of every Christian who claims the badge. We the everyday Christians probably have the most fault because we don't have any backbone to stand up to our friends about the way they act. It is a sad story and sadly it will only change after the judgment starts.

1United
Aug 19th 2010, 06:01 AM
Now I am not a pastor, but I played one in a dream once so I must be qualified to have an opinion (just a little joke to lighten the mood). I agree with both ProjectPeter and Amazzin here. I think the church today is more concerned about stuff and how long it takes to get something done than we are about the souls affected by what we do. If we look at what just the apostle Paul went through for the cause of Christ I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that most people would have abandoned the faith. Not many people today would be willing to even sacrifice most of their possessions for the faith let alone their safety or health.

Most people today have conditional love for conditional grace from God. What I mean by that is most will except God's grace, but it has to be on their terms and thus makes it conditional. This is not just the fault of the pastors or evangelists, it's the fault of every Christian who claims the badge. We the everyday Christians probably have the most fault because we don't have any backbone to stand up to our friends about the way they act. It is a sad story and sadly it will only change after the judgment starts.

I agree with the sentiments presented (For the most part) thus far. The church, and those who represent the church aren't going to like the judgment when Christ returns. Yes, I am one who believes it will be very soon. While most believe they will escape the great tribulation, the truth is that their very beliefs are going to be challenged to such a degree that they will be hard pressed to accept the coming Christ and the judgment he passes on the church body.

All religions are false (Including Christianity as it is practiced today). Yes, Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, but there are many falsehoods being perpetrated by our religious leaders, and the flock have embraced them hook, line, and sinker. Scripture tells us that 'many' are called, but 'few' are chosen after all, and at His return He will seperate the sheep from the goats. The sheep (Gods children) will be blessed and they will inherit the kingdom, while the goats (Children of the devil) will face a great infliction (Torment) during this time of tribulation. Christianity as practiced today by 'most' Christians is false, and this false religion will face the great tribulation at His return. Christianity was never meant to be a religion, but rather a way of life (Demonstrated by Jesus).

Bear with me for a moment ....

If God is love, and God is also Spirit, and the Spirit is truth, then isn't it the Spirit of love (God) that we ought to be honoring? Jesus did, so why not us? He did show us how to live [for] God after all, just as He showed us the importance of living [for] others. We do so by submitting to God, who is our true "Father".

Why then did Jesus suggest that the Scribes and Pharisees father was the devil? We cannot serve two masters and expect to stand, nor are we to be "luke warm". We pay homage to the 'force' we desire most (Good "God" or evil "Devil") whereby we (By our own desires) become the children thereof, which is why Jesus was so hard on the Scribes and Pharisees.

They were extremely religious (As are many) but the truth was not in them because their father was the devil (Evil) and he was a liar, and murderer from the 'beginning'. Liar meaning one whom lies against the truth, which is to say against the Spirit (Love), which is the "truth" the NT scriptures speaks of.

Jesus spoke the truth, yet they (And many still) rejected it (Love) in favor of evil. God is love, and it is only through His Spirit that any of us have any hope at all. We are called to worship (Honor) God in Spirit and in truth, and forsake our vain idols (False gods) in favor of the one "True" God who is love.

All religions are false. There is but one truth and that truth is "love", and the only moral standard that we (Mankind) are expected to utilize and live through in our daily lives. Love is our moral compass, and the only "moral" standard able to govern our ethical behavior (For all time).

What it comes down to is our desires. Do we desire "Love or Lust"/"Good or Evil"/"God or Devil". Both forces certainly exist, and it is through us that one or the other rules on earth. We are the vessels through which these forces operate, and it is through our actions that they are released upon mankind.

In the end (If we want to be counted among the sheep) we must desire, and then live through Gods Spirit (Love) above the (Lusts) of our flesh.

"Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death." Prov 8:32-36 (KJV)

Does wisdom not cry out? Is it not obvious that the Spirit (Love) is in opposition to our flesh (Lusts), and that those who find love find life, whereby we obtain favor of the Lord? And likewise, is it not obvious that he who sins against love wrongs his own soul? God love, and in His love is wisdom, and those who hate wisdom love death.

[I]"Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew." Prov 3:13-20 (KJV)

God is love, His love is wisdom, and His wisdom is a tree of life. Gods Spirit (Love) leads us into all truth, while the lusts of our flesh lead us to destruction. It is a battle between two opposing forces (Good "God" and Evil "Devil). Anything that is opposition to God (Who is love) is evil, and of the devil, stemming from the lusts of our (Mankinds) hearts.

James

RabbiKnife
Aug 19th 2010, 12:50 PM
I think the true church is flourishing, that Jesus is building it upon the rock of the revelation of his Deity, and that the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

I also believe that millions that sit in pews and stand behind pulpits each Sunday will be sadly, tragically shocked when they assume room temperature to find that they had a great religion and no relationship.

HisLeast
Aug 19th 2010, 02:07 PM
Ah... this must be the "hope" talked about in 1 Peter 3:15.

ClayInHisHands
Aug 19th 2010, 02:52 PM
I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts



Over the last two weeks I have seen this said in multiple posts. Where are these said doughnuts.....and is there coffee too? :confused :help:

HisLeast
Aug 19th 2010, 02:56 PM
Over the last two weeks I have seen this said in multiple posts. Where are these said doughnuts.....and is there coffee too? :confused :help:

The expression means that you are willing to bet your own money (dollars) against something totally useless (donuts) in a wager. It means you're so certain of your wager you don't require the other party to reciprocate.

ClayInHisHands
Aug 19th 2010, 03:11 PM
The expression means that you are willing to bet your own money (dollars) against something totally useless (donuts) in a wager. It means you're so certain of your wager you don't require the other party to wager.


I know....oops, I forgot to put a :lol:

amazzin
Aug 19th 2010, 04:31 PM
Over the last two weeks I have seen this said in multiple posts. Where are these said doughnuts.....and is there coffee too? :confused :help:

You don't want to go there. Stand down!!!!!

BrianW
Aug 19th 2010, 05:40 PM
Rabiknife wrote:

I think the true church is flourishing, that Jesus is building it upon the rock of the revelation of his Deity, and that the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

I also believe that millions that sit in pews and stand behind pulpits each Sunday will be sadly, tragically shocked when they assume room temperature to find that they had a great religion and no relationship.

-----------------------------------------------------

I agree.

The body is just fine. The ones who had a spiritual, supernatural, Holy Spirit filling, believing the deity of Christ, Repenting change into a new being ones that is. And by their fruits you will know them.


Its the pseudo Christians and pseudo pastors that are in a sad state.

Its the cowards who want Christ on their own terms that congregate with other people just like them to listen to people just like them preach and that are afraid to offend people by actually living the word of God.

The ones who say they believe in the deity of Christ, have read and heard the truth and that he is the light of the world and that no man comes to the Father and into heaven except through him and yet still want to look at scripture and their salvation as a smorgasbord and pick out only what they deem the good things and leave behind the things that can't bear to change or live without.

The ones who don't really love the truth but instead just want to be comforted and appeased in what they call their life but is really their death.

HisLeast
Aug 19th 2010, 06:05 PM
The body is just fine. The ones who had a spiritual, supernatural, Holy Spirit filling, believing the deity of Christ, Repenting change into a new being ones that is. And by their fruits you will know them.

I've never had a supernatural experience in my walk. Am I a pseudo Christian?

RabbiKnife
Aug 19th 2010, 06:07 PM
Nope. You have had a supernatural experience, which was the new birth, but apparently that doesn't count unless you felt all goose pimply, too.

I have never had a "supernatural experience" either, because I don't know what that means.

ProjectPeter
Aug 19th 2010, 06:59 PM
I've never had a supernatural experience in my walk. Am I a pseudo Christian?


Nope. You have had a supernatural experience, which was the new birth, but apparently that doesn't count unless you felt all goose pimply, too.

I have never had a "supernatural experience" either, because I don't know what that means.Okay... minus that use of the words "supernatural experience" (he can define it however he does)... do you at least agree with his point?

Dang HisLeast... I can understand that from a lawyer because they are the type to find a word and toss aside the point just to get the wording right... are you also a lawyer?

RabbiKnife
Aug 19th 2010, 07:11 PM
Jesus said "let your 'yea' be 'yea' and your 'nay' be 'nay'.

We should all strive for accuracy and completeness in our communication, especially in a forum in which the written text is all we have to see without the additional input of facial expression, vocal tone, etc...

ProjectPeter
Aug 19th 2010, 07:32 PM
Jesus said "let your 'yea' be 'yea' and your 'nay' be 'nay'.

We should all strive for accuracy and completeness in our communication, especially in a forum in which the written text is all we have to see without the additional input of facial expression, vocal tone, etc...
I see... check your rep.

HisLeast
Aug 19th 2010, 07:46 PM
Okay... minus that use of the words "supernatural experience" (he can define it however he does)... do you at least agree with his point?
It makes all the difference in the world to me. What if he said "white skinned"? Would you have been able to overlook that to some point beneath the surface?


Dang HisLeast... I can understand that from a lawyer because they are the type to find a word and toss aside the point just to get the wording right... are you also a lawyer?
I'm sorry ProjectPeter. I'm sorry that I struggle with "real Christianity" and the multitude of mutually exclusive definitions of it offered by the church today. I'm sorry my questions are such a burden for you. You see, I can't go a week amongst Christians (in real life mind you, not just cyberspace) telling me how supernatural experience is essential to being Christian. If your church ain't having supernatural healings, its not a real church. If you haven't had some powerfull supernatural experience of the holy spirit, you aren't really saved (or you aren't as cool a Christian as those who have). If you have cancer, then you don't "know who you are in Christ".

I keep thinking of that time in my teens ... all of us huddled in the living room praying for my mom and waiting for the ambulance to come. I think of the "pastor", that "wise" "elder" and "sheppard" for our "church" and how with that poop eating smile on his face told my mother that God frequently sends this kind of pain for unrepentant and hidden sin... and if she'd just repent of whatever she was hiding it would be removed. I see 20 years hasn't wisened the church up any. If you're afflicted its because you damn well deserve to be. Real Christians are supernaturally awesome.

So please ProjectPeter, excuse me if I want some clarity on whether or not the experience of the supernatural is a critical element to my being a real Christian.

Given how you rag on lawyers, what makes you think I'm stupid enough to tell you what I do to put food on my family's table? Find something else to leverage against me.

amazzin
Aug 19th 2010, 07:50 PM
Hey HL

Calm down my friend. PP is not your enemy. Maybe have an espresso on me


It makes all the difference in the world to me. What if he said "white skinned"? Would you have been able to overlook that to some point beneath the surface?


I'm sorry ProjectPeter. I'm sorry that I struggle with "real Christianity" and the multitude of different mutually exclusive definitions of it offered by the church today. I'm sorry my questions are such a burden for you. You see, I can't go a week amongst Christians (in real life mind you, not just cyberspace) telling me how supernatural experience is essential to being Christian. If your church ain't having supernatural healings, its not a real church. If you haven't had some powerfull supernatural experience of the holy spirit, you aren't really saved (or you aren't as cool a Christian as those who have). If you have cancer, then you don't "know who you are in Christ".

I keep thinking of that time in my teens ... all of us huddled in the living room praying for my mom and waiting for the ambulance to come. I think of the "pastor", that "wise" "elder" and "sheppard" for our "church" and how with that poop eating smile on his face told my mother that God frequently sends this kind of pain for unrepentant and hidden sin... and if she'd just repent of whatever she was hiding it would be removed. I see 20 years hasn't wisened the church up any. If you're afflicted its because you damn well deserve to be. Real Christians are supernaturally awesome.

So please ProjectPeter, excuse me if I want some clarity on whether or not the experience of the supernatural is a critical element to my being a real Christian.

Given how you rag on lawyers, what makes you think I'd be stupid enough to tell you what I do from 9-5? Find something else to leverage against me.

BrianW
Aug 19th 2010, 07:51 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I did not mean to use the word supernatural to describe or impart anything like "supernatural experience is essential to being Christian. If your church ain't having supernatural healings, its not a real church. If you haven't had some powerfull supernatural experience of the holy spirit, you aren't really saved (or you aren't as cool a Christian as those who have)."


I meant it only as in describing being born again and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

HisLeast
Aug 19th 2010, 08:06 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I did not mean to use the word supernatural to describe or impart anything like "supernatural experience is essential to being Christian. If your church ain't having supernatural healings, its not a real church. If you haven't had some powerfull supernatural experience of the holy spirit, you aren't really saved (or you aren't as cool a Christian as those who have)."
I realize the text you quoted is not what you were saying. However, those kinds of statements (the ones I stated which you quoted) are the kinds of things I've experienced so frequently I can't help but ask when I hear "supernatural" as a necessary component of genuine Christianity.


I meant it only as in describing being born again and being filled with the Holy Spirit.
Ok. That's much clearer, and thank you.

TrustingFollower
Aug 19th 2010, 09:03 PM
It makes all the difference in the world to me. What if he said "white skinned"? Would you have been able to overlook that to some point beneath the surface?


I'm sorry ProjectPeter. I'm sorry that I struggle with "real Christianity" and the multitude of mutually exclusive definitions of it offered by the church today. I'm sorry my questions are such a burden for you. You see, I can't go a week amongst Christians (in real life mind you, not just cyberspace) telling me how supernatural experience is essential to being Christian. If your church ain't having supernatural healings, its not a real church. If you haven't had some powerfull supernatural experience of the holy spirit, you aren't really saved (or you aren't as cool a Christian as those who have). If you have cancer, then you don't "know who you are in Christ".

I keep thinking of that time in my teens ... all of us huddled in the living room praying for my mom and waiting for the ambulance to come. I think of the "pastor", that "wise" "elder" and "sheppard" for our "church" and how with that poop eating smile on his face told my mother that God frequently sends this kind of pain for unrepentant and hidden sin... and if she'd just repent of whatever she was hiding it would be removed. I see 20 years hasn't wisened the church up any. If you're afflicted its because you damn well deserve to be. Real Christians are supernaturally awesome.

So please ProjectPeter, excuse me if I want some clarity on whether or not the experience of the supernatural is a critical element to my being a real Christian.

Given how you rag on lawyers, what makes you think I'd be stupid enough to tell you what I do to put food on my family's table? Find something else to leverage against me.

It is obvious that you have been hurt in the past HL and so have I. The one thing I can tell you for certain is you will never get over it until you decide to let it go. We live in an evil world with all kinds of evil stuff. It will only affect you if you let it affect you. I was angery for many many years and it only got me more angry. When I let it go and forgave those who hurt me then I was able to be healed and become the new person I am today. If you don't believe me just ask my wife, she saw it all happen.

ProjectPeter
Aug 20th 2010, 12:36 AM
It makes all the difference in the world to me. What if he said "white skinned"? Would you have been able to overlook that to some point beneath the surface?He didn't say "white skinned" now did he? He said supernatural which hey... can mean a lot of stuff. Ask him to clarify before making an assumption. Stops a lot of unnecessary hurt feelings and testy post etc.


I'm sorry ProjectPeter. I'm sorry that I struggle with "real Christianity" and the multitude of mutually exclusive definitions of it offered by the church today. I'm sorry my questions are such a burden for you. You see, I can't go a week amongst Christians (in real life mind you, not just cyberspace) telling me how supernatural experience is essential to being Christian. If your church ain't having supernatural healings, its not a real church. If you haven't had some powerfull supernatural experience of the holy spirit, you aren't really saved (or you aren't as cool a Christian as those who have). If you have cancer, then you don't "know who you are in Christ".Next time it happens here... shoot me a PM with a link and watch me crawl on whoever says that. Folks need to get a grip on that end of the doctrine too.


I keep thinking of that time in my teens ... all of us huddled in the living room praying for my mom and waiting for the ambulance to come. I think of the "pastor", that "wise" "elder" and "sheppard" for our "church" and how with that poop eating smile on his face told my mother that God frequently sends this kind of pain for unrepentant and hidden sin... and if she'd just repent of whatever she was hiding it would be removed. I see 20 years hasn't wisened the church up any. If you're afflicted its because you damn well deserve to be. Real Christians are supernaturally awesome.If that really happened that was a pastor that needed a boot in his fanny. Had I been there... I'd offered the foot and the power behind the foot needed to drive it in his fanny.


So please ProjectPeter, excuse me if I want some clarity on whether or not the experience of the supernatural is a critical element to my being a real Christian.

Given how you rag on lawyers, what makes you think I'm stupid enough to tell you what I do to put food on my family's table? Find something else to leverage against me.Rag? Goodness... don't be so hypersensitive. It was ragging and you don't see any post where I rag on lawyers. I said I can understand hanging on a word from a lawyer. That's what they do. Goodness... ragging? Far from it... just stated a fact. If you were a lawyer too then I suppose I would at least understand your comment. But fact... his point was totally blown over because of that one phrase. All the while... the guy was agreeing with you.

BrianW
Aug 20th 2010, 01:11 AM
It seems we just had a different view of what the word supernatural meant in this case and I have no problem explaining what I meant by it.

My understanding is that when you beleive that Jesus is the one and only way to salvation and repent of your sins and become born again that you are transformed and become filled with the Holy Spirit. The transformation and infilling of the Holy Spirit can be said to be supernatural.

Beyond the visible universe. What skeptics would say to be impossible. A miracle in and of itself.

My apologies that you view the word with bad connotations.

I still stand by everything I wrote in the original post, controversial wording or not.

BroRog
Aug 20th 2010, 05:02 PM
In my view, the state of the "body" is a different question than the state of the "church". Jesus told us that tares would grow up among the wheat and that we wouldn't recognize the tares from the wheat until the crop matured. So it shouldn't surprise us to find at church, a mixture of committed followers of Jesus Christ and others who aren't.

And I don't think we can judge the Body, by how the Church looks to us. The Body, by definition are all wheat, each member being in Christ and a child of God. But the church, being a field of both wheat and tares, is going to look pretty much like the world does.

So, my brothers and sisters, don't be discouraged by what you see. Don't judge the Church by what you see on the outside, and don't be surprised or disappointed to see the Church acting like the world. Again, the Church is a mixture of tares and wheat.

RabbiKnife
Aug 20th 2010, 05:06 PM
The Church and the Body are the same.

ProjectPeter
Aug 20th 2010, 05:48 PM
The Church and the Body are the same.You'd sure think so reading the writings of Paul! Just goes to show you... no matter the use of wording... someone will debate it! :lol:

Slug1
Aug 20th 2010, 05:51 PM
The Church and the Body are the same.I agree. One Body of Christ made up of all "church".

1 Cor 12:12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

RabbiKnife
Aug 20th 2010, 05:52 PM
You'd sure think so reading the writings of Paul! Just goes to show you... no matter the use of wording... someone will debate it! :lol:

Have to be careful about that Paul guy...he "changed" the "words in red", remember? He hijacked Christianity!

Or so I've been told.

:eek:

BroRog
Aug 20th 2010, 05:53 PM
Forest for the trees gentlemen.

ProjectPeter
Aug 20th 2010, 05:58 PM
Have to be careful about that Paul guy...he "changed" the "words in red", remember? He hijacked Christianity!

Or so I've been told.

:eek:

Yeah well... tell me something. Does even saying that jokingly make you feel the need to take a shower and repent! Did me when I said it last! :lol:

ProjectPeter
Aug 20th 2010, 06:00 PM
Forest for the trees gentlemen.Absolutely not. Unless of course you can scripturally show where the body of Christ is not the church. I do hope you go on into 1 Corinthians 14 with this especially with the Reformed doctrine as your belief... I can guarantee some fun times! :D

RabbiKnife
Aug 20th 2010, 06:00 PM
Yeah well... tell me something. Does even saying that jokingly make you feel the need to take a shower and repent! Did me when I said it last! :lol:

Not really. I was a Baptist for a lot of years. My conscience if fairly well seared!

:)

ProjectPeter
Aug 20th 2010, 06:03 PM
Not really. I was a Baptist for a lot of years. My conscience if fairly well seared!

:)
I did the Baptist thing... was a bloody disaster! Go figure! :D

Slug1
Aug 20th 2010, 06:03 PM
Absolutely not. Unless of course you can scripturally show where the body of Christ is not the church. I do hope you go on into 1 Corinthians 14 with this especially with the Reformed doctrine as your belief... I can guarantee some fun times! :D14? Here I started with scripture from 12 :P

ProjectPeter
Aug 20th 2010, 06:05 PM
14? Here I started with scripture from 12 :P
Yeah... really should say 12-14. We;d of gotten there. :D

Slug1
Aug 20th 2010, 06:06 PM
Yeah... really should say 12-14. We;d of gotten there. :DWe would have :lol:

BroRog
Aug 20th 2010, 06:10 PM
Absolutely not. Unless of course you can scripturally show where the body of Christ is not the church. I do hope you go on into 1 Corinthians 14 with this especially with the Reformed doctrine as your belief... I can guarantee some fun times! :DI'm worried and disappointed to have to explain myself. I would have thought that anyone reading my post would understand that I wasn't using the term "church" the way the Bible uses it, but according to the common, modern vernacular.

The premise of this thread assumes that one can evaluate "the state of the body" by looking at the behavior of the members in a church. I don't think this is valid and according to Jesus we shouldn't expect the "church" to look any different than the world. Do you all get this or are you just trying to be argumentative?

ProjectPeter
Aug 20th 2010, 06:32 PM
I'm worried and disappointed to have to explain myself. I would have thought that anyone reading my post would understand that I wasn't using the term "church" the way the Bible uses it, but according to the common, modern vernacular.

The premise of this thread assumes that one can evaluate "the state of the body" by looking at the behavior of the members in a church. I don't think this is valid and according to Jesus we shouldn't expect the "church" to look any different than the world. Do you all get this or are you just trying to be argumentative?You didn't give any indication of such really. So not sure why the worry or disappointment. You know on here... folks say a lot of odd stuff and they really, really do mean it oddly! ;)

RabbiKnife
Aug 20th 2010, 06:48 PM
I'm worried and disappointed to have to explain myself. I would have thought that anyone reading my post would understand that I wasn't using the term "church" the way the Bible uses it, but according to the common, modern vernacular.

The premise of this thread assumes that one can evaluate "the state of the body" by looking at the behavior of the members in a church. I don't think this is valid and according to Jesus we shouldn't expect the "church" to look any different than the world. Do you all get this or are you just trying to be argumentative?

I don't get this. Where does Jesus say that we shouldn't expect the church to look any different that the world?

Slug1
Aug 20th 2010, 06:58 PM
We like to thank God that we're not like those third world nations... soon, those 3rd world nations will thank God they weren't like the western nations.


Here's something about the Body of Christ... while the world "hates" the Body of Christ in 3rd world countries and are thus, persecuting them to actual "death"... seems here in the states, we don't have that. Sure, slander, maybe vandalism, political moves against the Body of Christ (legally limiting God while allowing freedom of false gods in society) ... but here in the states, we don't know what persecution really is. To be hated and be killed by such hate.

Most Christians in the states just tend to themselves, only within the walls of church and don't get out of that safety net. Preach to the choir only, only according to their rules/doctrine as well and not by the lead of the Holy Spirit.

Get out into the world and then they'll know if Christ is with them.

Anyway... most flack (persecution) most Christians receive here in the states... is from other Christians :rolleyes: :hmm:

BroRog
Aug 20th 2010, 09:16 PM
I don't get this. Where does Jesus say that we shouldn't expect the church to look any different that the world?The parable of the wheat and tares

Bruthaman
Aug 23rd 2010, 02:19 AM
The true church looks like a church. It consists of people who are born again. I wouldn't be caught dead in a church where people talk and act like the world. I get my daily dose of the world just trying to make it through college. My opinion of the so called body of Christ today is there is an increasing lack of conviction amongst so called "believers." Which tells me the Holy Spirit is not with them. It is almost as if the younger generation wears the title "Christian" as if it is a fashion statement. It is not a fashion statement or just a logo, it is a lifestyle of dieing everyday and taking up your cross. Living by the Spirit of God and not in the works of the flesh.

As far as supernatural experiences. That can take on a wide view. Generally though, we mean having the baptism of the Holy Spirit when you first recieve Christ. What I mean by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is that your eyes are opened like Paul's eyes were opened. You get the revelation of who Christ is. There is that change. Life takes on new meaning, you have a new purpose, and God becomes real to you. You attitude, intentions, thoughts, and overall character changes to look more and more like Christ each day. I take up the view that if your not progressing and growing in your faith, your backsliding.

ProjectPeter
Aug 23rd 2010, 02:50 AM
The true church looks like a church. It consists of people who are born again. I wouldn't be caught dead in a church where people talk and act like the world. I get my daily dose of the world just trying to make it through college. My opinion of the so called body of Christ today is there is an increasing lack of conviction amongst so called "believers." Which tells me the Holy Spirit is not with them. It is almost as if the younger generation wears the title "Christian" as if it is a fashion statement. It is not a fashion statement or just a logo, it is a lifestyle of dieing everyday and taking up your cross. Living by the Spirit of God and not in the works of the flesh.

As far as supernatural experiences. That can take on a wide view. Generally though, we mean having the baptism of the Holy Spirit when you first recieve Christ. What I mean by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is that your eyes are opened like Paul's eyes were opened. You get the revelation of who Christ is. There is that change. Life takes on new meaning, you have a new purpose, and God becomes real to you. You attitude, intentions, thoughts, and overall character changes to look more and more like Christ each day. I take up the view that if your not progressing and growing in your faith, your backsliding.

Yeah... the word supernatural conjures up a lot of meaning now days but even those that aren't that comfortable with the word... they'll start talking about how regeneration works and lo and behold... it too is supernatural. :lol:

RabbiKnife
Aug 23rd 2010, 01:26 PM
I don't find the parable of the wheat and the tares to be describing the church, but instead of the entire harvest field.

BroRog
Aug 23rd 2010, 03:38 PM
I don't find the parable of the wheat and the tares to be describing the church, but instead of the entire harvest field.Jesus is drawing an analogy between The kingdom of heaven and a field planted with wheat and tares. Unless the kingdom of heaven is the world, it has to be a church.

RabbiKnife
Aug 23rd 2010, 04:08 PM
No, he is not saying that the Kingdom of Heaven = a harvest field. He is saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man that plants a field, (the world) and the evil one attacks (sin), and both good grain (Church) and tares (non-church) grow up together. There is no way that you can ever make a tare a part of the church.

BroRog
Aug 23rd 2010, 05:01 PM
No, he is not saying that the Kingdom of Heaven = a harvest field. He is saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man that plants a field, (the world) and the evil one attacks (sin), and both good grain (Church) and tares (non-church) grow up together. There is no way that you can ever make a tare a part of the church.It depends on what connotation of church we are using doesn't it?