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ProDeo
Sep 8th 2010, 12:54 PM
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.; 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If I understand verse 13 right there will be a lot of shame on that day.

Individual shame, perhaps even collective shame? Collective shame in the sense that everybody will be eyewitness of your (my) shame?

BroRog
Sep 8th 2010, 04:47 PM
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.; 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If I understand verse 13 right there will be a lot of shame on that day.

Individual shame, perhaps even collective shame? Collective shame in the sense that everybody will be eyewitness of your (my) shame?Any reason to believe this is talking about judgment day?

ProjectPeter
Sep 8th 2010, 04:53 PM
Any reason to believe this is talking about judgment day?

It isn't talking about Joe Schmucky the Christian in there... speaking of those who build on the foundation. The workers... not the field... The builders... not the building. Lot's of folks use it wrongly.

As to judgment day... Yeah... I think if you read on that is evident.

1 Corinthians 4:1 *Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 *In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy.
3 *But to me it is a very small thing that I should be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.
4 *For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
5 *Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

the rookie
Sep 8th 2010, 04:59 PM
It isn't talking about Joe Schmucky the Christian in there... speaking of those who build on the foundation. The workers... not the field... The builders... not the building. Lot's of folks use it wrongly.

As to judgment day... Yeah... I think if you read on that is evident.

1 Corinthians 4:1 *Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 *In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy.
3 *But to me it is a very small thing that I should be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.
4 *For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
5 *Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

Of course, if Joe Schmucky the Christian isn't building, working, laboring, one could say that "anyone who puts their hand to the plow and looks back is not fit to..." et cetera, et cetera. :)

In other words, even if used "rightly", if this passage doesn't apply to you, what are you doing? Probably not the Great Commisson...

So - I'd love some clarity on how Joe gets out of sweating this passage... :)

BroRog
Sep 8th 2010, 04:59 PM
It isn't talking about Joe Schmucky the Christian in there... speaking of those who build on the foundation. The workers... not the field... The builders... not the building. Lot's of folks use it wrongly.

As to judgment day... Yeah... I think if you read on that is evident.

1 Corinthians 4:1 *Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 *In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy.
3 *But to me it is a very small thing that I should be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.
4 *For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
5 *Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.But why can't a man's work (not the man himself) be tested during his own life time?

ProjectPeter
Sep 8th 2010, 05:03 PM
But why can't a man's work (not the man himself) be tested during his own life time?

In ways I am certain it can and is. Nevertheless... this one in speaking of judgment day. The final testing if you will. You asked why one would think it speaking of that day... I think context clearly shows it is speaking of that day what with that whole "wait until the Lord comes" comment and all. So you know... it's there. It's context. We can argue if Paul really really meant it I guess... but it says pretty much what it says and says it pretty clearly.

the rookie
Sep 8th 2010, 05:06 PM
But why can't a man's work (not the man himself) be tested during his own life time?

No one. But are you saying that the phrase "before the time, before the Lord comes" is metaphorical? Verse 5 seems to indicate that the time of reward after judgment is actual.

ProjectPeter
Sep 8th 2010, 05:10 PM
No one. But are you saying that the phrase "before the time, before the Lord comes" is metaphorical? Verse 5 seems to indicate that the time of reward after judgment is actual.

Yeah it does... and good to see you again man! :)

ProjectPeter
Sep 8th 2010, 05:13 PM
Of course, if Joe Schmucky the Christian isn't building, working, laboring, one could say that "anyone who puts their hand to the plow and looks back is not fit to..." et cetera, et cetera. :)

In other words, even if used "rightly", if this passage doesn't apply to you, what are you doing? Probably not the Great Commisson...

So - I'd love some clarity on how Joe gets out of sweating this passage... :)

Technically... Joe has a lot of other issues in the Corinth church. :lol: As to the great commission... that's just setting the foundation so to speak... once one has that foundation... it is built upon.

The foundation being laid out clear in 1 Cor. 15.

1 Corinthians 15:1 *Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 *by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 *For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 *and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 *and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
6 *After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
7 *then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
8 *and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

ProjectPeter
Sep 8th 2010, 05:16 PM
Of course, if Joe Schmucky the Christian isn't building, working, laboring, one could say that "anyone who puts their hand to the plow and looks back is not fit to..." et cetera, et cetera. :)

In other words, even if used "rightly", if this passage doesn't apply to you, what are you doing? Probably not the Great Commisson...

So - I'd love some clarity on how Joe gets out of sweating this passage... :)
Let me add too... this is speaking of "stewards of the mysteries of God" etc.... not to cheapen the fact that there is plenty of labor for even Joe.

TomH
Sep 8th 2010, 05:19 PM
[FONT=Comic Sans MS]13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.; 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. [/FONTIf
I understand verse 13 right there will be a lot of shame on that day
]Individual shame, perhaps even collective shame? Collective shame in the sense that everybody will be eyewitness of your (my) shame?

Not necessarily. Verse 14 is righteous works, verse 15 deals with human good works that were intended just because your a nice guy. Then there are the other good works intended to maintain salvation.

Righteous works were deeds performed because of salvation carried out through instruction from the Holy Spirit. We shall receive a reward.

Good works performed simply out of human nature didn't do anything for you, so you simply lost them. You held doors open for women and elders. You may have gotten an attaboy for it, but no one going to feel shame for the loss.

Then there's the good works performed to maintain salvation in verse 15. It may be embarrassing to a few, yes, and even the rest may feel embarrassment for those individuals, for an instant.

But look at this portion of this verse...but he himself shall be saved. There may be a fleeting moment of shame,(I'd rather call it embarrassment) but it will be overwhelmed with great joy for the Grace of God.

ProjectPeter
Sep 8th 2010, 05:20 PM
Not necessarily. Verse 14 is righteous works, verse 15 deals with human good works that were intended just because your a nice guy. Then there are the other good works intended to maintain salvation.

Righteous works were deeds performed because of salvation carried out through instruction from the Holy Spirit. We shall receive a reward.

Good works performed simply out of human nature didn't do anything for you, so you simply lost them. You held doors open for women and elders. You may have gotten an attaboy for it, but no one going to feel shame for the loss.

Then there's the good works performed to maintain salvation in verse 15. It may be embarrassing to a few, yes, and even the rest may feel embarrassment for those individuals, for an instant.

But look at this portion of this verse...but he himself shall be saved. There may be a fleeting moment of shame,(I'd rather call it embarrassment) but it will be overwhelmed with great joy for the Grace of God.

Help me out here. Where do you get all of this from in this text?

BroRog
Sep 8th 2010, 05:35 PM
No one. But are you saying that the phrase "before the time, before the Lord comes" is metaphorical? Verse 5 seems to indicate that the time of reward after judgment is actual.No, I'm suggesting that the "judgment" of chapter 3 might be both temporal, and an evaluation of a man's work, even as the judgment of chapter 4, is eternal and an evaluation of a man's motives.

ProjectPeter
Sep 8th 2010, 05:46 PM
No, I'm suggesting that the "judgment" of chapter 3 might be both temporal, and an evaluation of a man's work, even as the judgment of chapter 4, is eternal and an evaluation of a man's motives.

Where does context allow them to be two different judgments? THe only case you might make there is that one is in "Chapter 3" and the other "Chapter 4" but you know better than that I am sure!

notuptome
Sep 8th 2010, 05:57 PM
If this passage is refering to the judging of a believers works then we need to look at 2 Cor 5:10 as well. Christ will judge the works of the believer. The believer does not come into condemnation only his/her works are examined. Now if we fail to confess our sins to Christ we will accrue works of wood hay and stubble which will be burned. If we keep close accounts sin wise with Christ we will have gold silver and precious stones.

vs 13 in 1 Cor 3 does say every man not just some. Eph 2:10 says that we all are His workmanship created unto good works. Believers like Christ are to work. Not working for salvation but working because our Father and our Christ work.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Sep 8th 2010, 06:00 PM
Where does context allow them to be two different judgments? THe only case you might make there is that one is in "Chapter 3" and the other "Chapter 4" but you know better than that I am sure!The difference is in the language being used. In chapter three, Paul talks about the quality of a man's work and that his work will be evaluated by a test. And if his work fails the test, he will not be harmed. In chapter 4, on the other hand, it isn't a man's work that is evaluated but his motives, and the comparison is between the Corinthian church's evaluation of Paul's motives and Christ's evaluation of his motives. Paul is asking the Corinthians to stop evaluating his motives and to wait until the return of Christ who will evaluted Paul's motives. Why? Because the Corinthians aren't really in a position to evaluate Paul's motives since, unlike Christ, they are not "able to disclose the motives of a man's heart."

So then, in chapter 3, a man's works are being evaluated but in chapter 4 his motives are being evaluated. In chapter 3, his works are being tested by animate but impersonal forces such as "a day" or "fire" but in chapter 4, his motives are being evaluated by a person who can read the heart of a man. The change in vocabulary and emphsis is what alerts me of the difference.

ProDeo
Sep 8th 2010, 06:36 PM
Any reason to believe this is talking about judgment day?
Is it not then?

BroRog
Sep 8th 2010, 07:35 PM
Is it not then?I'm not sure, I don't think so.

ProjectPeter
Sep 8th 2010, 08:16 PM
If this passage is refering to the judging of a believers works then we need to look at 2 Cor 5:10 as well. Christ will judge the works of the believer. The believer does not come into condemnation only his/her works are examined. Now if we fail to confess our sins to Christ we will accrue works of wood hay and stubble which will be burned. If we keep close accounts sin wise with Christ we will have gold silver and precious stones.

vs 13 in 1 Cor 3 does say every man not just some. Eph 2:10 says that we all are His workmanship created unto good works. Believers like Christ are to work. Not working for salvation but working because our Father and our Christ work.

For the cause of Christ
RogerEvery man who though. Every man as in every builder or planter/waterer etc. The building doesn't build themselves nor does the field plant themselves. This text is talking about builders and planters. The every man is every man that is a builder and a planter. It's there contextually and to try and make the building and field part of this text is taking the text totally out of context.

As to the 2 Corinthians passage... that is speaking of believers being judged for deeds in the body. Different context now. In the 1 Corinthians passage it is speaking of judgment of how one builds onto the foundation... the foundation being Christ.

That's the context guys... it's there if you just read it. I've fought with folks on this for years. Some admit they had it wrong because reading it in context it is clear. Problem is... one has to sort of kick a sacred doctrinal cow because of past teachings on this passage. But reading it shows... it's speaking of builders and planters... not the building or field.

ProjectPeter
Sep 8th 2010, 08:28 PM
The difference is in the language being used. In chapter three, Paul talks about the quality of a man's work and that his work will be evaluated by a test. And if his work fails the test, he will not be harmed. In chapter 4, on the other hand, it isn't a man's work that is evaluated but his motives, and the comparison is between the Corinthian church's evaluation of Paul's motives and Christ's evaluation of his motives. Paul is asking the Corinthians to stop evaluating his motives and to wait until the return of Christ who will evaluted Paul's motives. Why? Because the Corinthians aren't really in a position to evaluate Paul's motives since, unlike Christ, they are not "able to disclose the motives of a man's heart."

So then, in chapter 3, a man's works are being evaluated but in chapter 4 his motives are being evaluated. In chapter 3, his works are being tested by animate but impersonal forces such as "a day" or "fire" but in chapter 4, his motives are being evaluated by a person who can read the heart of a man. The change in vocabulary and emphsis is what alerts me of the difference.Uh... okay.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to babes in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?
4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
10 ¶According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it.
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 ¶Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
18 ¶Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become foolish that he may become wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";
20 and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."
21 So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you,
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,
23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy.
3 But to me it is a very small thing that I should be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.
4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.
6 ¶Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.



The entire passage is speaking of the builder's works being either works that survive the fire... good works with good motives... or works that don't survive... bad works include good works with bad motive. The bold typed text makes it clear that Paul is talking about the same thing through all of it while using him and Apollos as the example.

ProDeo
Sep 8th 2010, 11:23 PM
I'm not sure, I don't think so.

I am inclined to think Paul providing us here some extra information what's going to happen on Judgement Day. Although Christians are in the Book of Live of the Lamb their works will be judged anyway. My question is if the judgement will be private or public.

"Every man's work shall be made manifest" together with Rev 20:12 seems to point to a public event. I don't think it is something to look forward although we will "be saved; yet so as by fire".

Another point, the word "works" is interesting, I tend to take it literal, but suppose it includes our thoughts as well..... Loads of more shame then, but perhaps that is unavoidable meeting God in person. His light will go through every scrap of our soul.

After the shame, fortunately, rewards.

But maybe I am reading too much in it.

the rookie
Sep 8th 2010, 11:29 PM
Let me add too... this is speaking of "stewards of the mysteries of God" etc.... not to cheapen the fact that there is plenty of labor for even Joe.

Thanks, by the way - good to be back! I could say the same in regards to you...:)

Yes, I agree - in the narrow context of this passage, "fellow workers", "stewards of the mysteries", etc. is speaking of one group (Paul's guys) and "God's field", "God's building", etc. is speaking of the other group (the Corinthian folks). This also, by the way, should cause tons of folks to re-look at the way they interpret the "temple of the Holy Spirit" passage in relationship to those who would destroy it, etc. as it's often interpreted apart from the context of the rest of 1 Cor. 3-4.

In the broader sense, though? The Great Commission extends a fairly in-depth invitation to all believers to do what Paul and his guys were doing across the earth; the GC speaks of "discipling all nations" by teaching "all that Jesus taught" along with baptizing with water and the Holy Spirit. That's a bit deeper than "foundation laying", "convert making", or "church planting". That's a fairly deep and comprehensive - and a command given to all believers. Which means that, to some degree and to some level, the 1 Cor 3-4 passage has some application related to all believers and the conversation they'll have with Jesus in the future.

I've missed ya bro!

amazzin
Sep 8th 2010, 11:31 PM
Thanks, by the way - good to be back! I could say the same in regards to you...:)

Yes, I agree - in the narrow context of this passage, "fellow workers", "stewards of the mysteries", etc. is speaking of one group (Paul's guys) and "God's field", "God's building", etc. is speaking of the other group (the Corinthian folks). This also, by the way, should cause tons of folks to re-look at the way they interpret the "temple of the Holy Spirit" passage in relationship to those who would destroy it, etc. as it's often interpreted apart from the context of the rest of 1 Cor. 3-4.

In the broader sense, though? The Great Commission extends a fairly in-depth invitation to all believers to do what Paul and his guys were doing across the earth; the GC speaks of "discipling all nations" by teaching "all that Jesus taught" along with baptizing with water and the Holy Spirit. That's a bit deeper than "foundation laying", "convert making", or "church planting". That's a fairly deep and comprehensive - and a command given to all believers. Which means that, to some degree and to some level, the 1 Cor 3-4 passage has some application related to all believers and the conversation they'll have with Jesus in the future.

I've missed ya bro!

Rookie!!!!

Dude how have you been? You are missed. Still going hard for the kingdom?

the rookie
Sep 8th 2010, 11:38 PM
The difference is in the language being used. In chapter three, Paul talks about the quality of a man's work and that his work will be evaluated by a test. And if his work fails the test, he will not be harmed. In chapter 4, on the other hand, it isn't a man's work that is evaluated but his motives, and the comparison is between the Corinthian church's evaluation of Paul's motives and Christ's evaluation of his motives. Paul is asking the Corinthians to stop evaluating his motives and to wait until the return of Christ who will evaluted Paul's motives. Why? Because the Corinthians aren't really in a position to evaluate Paul's motives since, unlike Christ, they are not "able to disclose the motives of a man's heart."

So then, in chapter 3, a man's works are being evaluated but in chapter 4 his motives are being evaluated. In chapter 3, his works are being tested by animate but impersonal forces such as "a day" or "fire" but in chapter 4, his motives are being evaluated by a person who can read the heart of a man. The change in vocabulary and emphsis is what alerts me of the difference.

There is a difference between the intensity of the "day" of His coming and the "fire" that accompanies it - and the manner in which that fire will expose the reality of what the builders built on Christ and His words and what they built related to the temporal, etc. - while the language of ch. 4 speaks of Christ in a more personal sense. But why does the grammatical shift have to indicate a temporal one? That part seems to have been deduced rather than induced, if I can say it that way. :)

In other words, what Paul built has endured into our day related to his ministry - the eternal nature of his ministry and words has real continuity and isn't an etherial or metaphysical idea. The coming of the Lord will reveal, in part, the wisdom of how Paul built; but this could be true of many of the great saints of old - think Jonathan Edwards, John & Charles Wesley, the Moravians, the Quakers, etc. Some of their ministry has endured (built right) some of it has not (built wrong) and the fire of his coming will reveal the wisdom of how they built - for some of "their people" are around today. John Piper would be an example of a "Jonathan Edwards disciple" and the fire and shaking of the day would reveal a man of character knit to the ministry of Edwards. We have the same invitation, and so forth. Edward's work was "good quality" and will be shown as such in the days to come.

the rookie
Sep 8th 2010, 11:43 PM
Rookie!!!!

Dude how have you been? You are missed. Still going hard for the kingdom?

Hey friend!

I've missed you all. I've been GREAT. The last 9 months have been an adventure unlike any I've ever experienced. I've been going really hard - I've been on the road every weekend since January leading meetings, etc. (Let the reader understand the "etc." :) ) But we've seen some "amazzin" things that you don't often see on this side of the pond. So I'm encouraged. I think the season is shifting again, though - and the joy of Ps. 27:4 may just be my portion for a while again. :)

Great to be back!!

amazzin
Sep 8th 2010, 11:52 PM
Hey friend!

I've missed you all. I've been GREAT. The last 9 months have been an adventure unlike any I've ever experienced. I've been going really hard - I've been on the road every weekend since January leading meetings, etc. (Let the reader understand the "etc." :) ) But we've seen some "amazzin" things that you don't often see on this side of the pond. So I'm encouraged. I think the season is shifting again, though - and the joy of Ps. 27:4 may just be my portion for a while again. :)

Great to be back!!

You following what's happening with Kilpatrick in AL?

BroRog
Sep 9th 2010, 12:16 AM
There is a difference between the intensity of the "day" of His coming and the "fire" that accompanies it - and the manner in which that fire will expose the reality of what the builders built on Christ and His words and what they built related to the temporal, etc. - while the language of ch. 4 speaks of Christ in a more personal sense. But why does the grammatical shift have to indicate a temporal one? That part seems to have been deduced rather than induced, if I can say it that way. :)

In other words, what Paul built has endured into our day related to his ministry - the eternal nature of his ministry and words has real continuity and isn't an etherial or metaphysical idea. The coming of the Lord will reveal, in part, the wisdom of how Paul built; but this could be true of many of the great saints of old - think Jonathan Edwards, John & Charles Wesley, the Moravians, the Quakers, etc. Some of their ministry has endured (built right) some of it has not (built wrong) and the fire of his coming will reveal the wisdom of how they built - for some of "their people" are around today. John Piper would be an example of a "Jonathan Edwards disciple" and the fire and shaking of the day would reveal a man of character knit to the ministry of Edwards. We have the same invitation, and so forth. Edward's work was "good quality" and will be shown as such in the days to come.I noticed that you spoke of the "day of his coming", which isn't in view in chapter 3. Paul says there will be a "day" when a man's works will be tested. Why does this "day" need to be the "day of his coming"? Why not "the day the works are tested"? If the stone, wood, and etc. are symbolic, then the fire is too.

What are the "works" of Edwards, for instance, according to this analogy? Aren't they the teachings, books and sermons of Edwards, that is, the ideas and beliefs of Edwards? And how are ideas and beliefs put to the test? I don't imagine that ideas can be destroyed in an actual fire. However ideas and teachings can be tested, and they can be tested right away. If I believe that I can fly, all I need do is stand on the edge of my bed and jump in order to put my ideas to the test. A test of faith, which is more relevant to the text, might be more extreem, and feel like fire when under such a test. And again, a test of faith can take place anytime.

the rookie
Sep 9th 2010, 12:30 AM
I noticed that you spoke of the "day of his coming", which isn't in view in chapter 3. Paul says there will be a "day" when a man's works will be tested. Why does this "day" need to be the "day of his coming"? Why not "the day the works are tested"? If the stone, wood, and etc. are symbolic, then the fire is too.

What are the "works" of Edwards, for instance, according to this analogy? Aren't they the teachings, books and sermons of Edwards, that is, the ideas and beliefs of Edwards? And how are ideas and beliefs put to the test? I don't imagine that ideas can be destroyed in an actual fire. However ideas and teachings can be tested, and they can be tested right away. If I believe that I can fly, all I need do is stand on the edge of my bed and jump in order to put my ideas to the test. A test of faith, which is more relevant to the text, might be more extreem, and feel like fire when under such a test. And again, a test of faith can take place anytime.

I'm seeing 3:1-4:6 as one unit of thought - thus "THE day" knit to the later "the Lord comes" seems to be knit to that one unit of thought. And no, ideas cannot burn or be destroyed by fire - but Paul was speaking of a fire that reveals knit to the analogy of wood, stubble, hay, gold, etc. Metaphorical fire and burning knit to a tangible event ("the day") leading to a tangible moment ("the judgment") - not etherial or metaphysical but analogous to "shaking everything that can be shaken" which then reveals the depth of the work of the builders related to "God's building" - metaphor for "people" who, on "the day" declare the wisdom of how the builders built. Same unit of thought, same analogies, same time frame in Paul's mind though the grammar reveals nuance that you identified in a way I like and agree with related to "works" and "motives".

ProjectPeter
Sep 9th 2010, 05:27 AM
Thanks, by the way - good to be back! I could say the same in regards to you...:)

Yes, I agree - in the narrow context of this passage, "fellow workers", "stewards of the mysteries", etc. is speaking of one group (Paul's guys) and "God's field", "God's building", etc. is speaking of the other group (the Corinthian folks). This also, by the way, should cause tons of folks to re-look at the way they interpret the "temple of the Holy Spirit" passage in relationship to those who would destroy it, etc. as it's often interpreted apart from the context of the rest of 1 Cor. 3-4.

In the broader sense, though? The Great Commission extends a fairly in-depth invitation to all believers to do what Paul and his guys were doing across the earth; the GC speaks of "discipling all nations" by teaching "all that Jesus taught" along with baptizing with water and the Holy Spirit. That's a bit deeper than "foundation laying", "convert making", or "church planting". That's a fairly deep and comprehensive - and a command given to all believers. Which means that, to some degree and to some level, the 1 Cor 3-4 passage has some application related to all believers and the conversation they'll have with Jesus in the future.

I've missed ya bro!

It does change totally the outlook of the "body is the temple" passage! As to Joe... Joe ain't out of judgment because he is Joe sure enough and Joe has plenty to do... no doubt of that! Missed you too man... tis good to be back on my end. Feels funny being in the red again but hey! What's a color! :lol:

Tons more to say on the topic but not this late in the night. Just popped in before going off to bed. Had a late night planning for the weekend. Jennifer has kicked off an older youth and young adult service here (we are back in Minnesota) and she's had them all over town... even in the city park today doing street work and preaching. This is a hard little town.. kids are messed up and drugs are insane here for such a small place. We've been back about four months now and have seen six suicides by young people... drug and booze related and that isn't counting the attempts. Per capita ... the numbers are staggering considering the city is now smaller than 9,000 people. Not much life in the churches here but now we're seeing a fire kindling. It's fun to watch but still a lot of work ahead. We're not in Cleveland Tennessee any longer sure enough! Last year you are working with pretty much unlimited resources... this year it's scrape and scrounge! But in all honesty... I enjoy this much better. Gotta love a challenge! :lol:

the rookie
Sep 9th 2010, 05:34 AM
It does change totally the outlook of the "body is the temple" passage! As to Joe... Joe ain't out of judgment because he is Joe sure enough and Joe has plenty to do... no doubt of that! Missed you too man... tis good to be back on my end. Feels funny being in the red again but hey! What's a color! :lol:

Absolutely - it shifts the analogy to a corporate one to an individual one; it then shifts the "defilement" in the same manner. The one that defiles what Paul is speaking of in the corporate sense ("the building of God") is the one that operates in unclean speech, religious opinion, and / or haughty words and arguments causing factions and division (one of the reasons for the letter). It's not at all about the individual with the indwelling Holy Spirit who smokes cigarettes, for example. There's other passages that speak of the indwelling Spirit - but in the flow of what Paul's talking about, this isn't one of them.

Love the red, and I love Joe!

ProjectPeter
Sep 9th 2010, 05:47 AM
Absolutely - it shifts the analogy to a corporate one to an individual one; it then shifts the "defilement" in the same manner. The one that defiles what Paul is speaking of in the corporate sense ("the building of God") is the one that operates in unclean speech, religious opinion, and / or haughty words and arguments causing factions and division (one of the reasons for the letter). It's not at all about the individual with the indwelling Holy Spirit who smokes cigarettes, for example. There's other passages that speak of the indwelling Spirit - but in the flow of what Paul's talking about, this isn't one of them.

Love the red, and I love Joe!

And I edited the post... didn't figure you'd be as nuts as I am and up this late. :lol:

And no... the Pentecostal and basically fundamental Christian folk have totally messed that passage up, using it for a catch-all passage to cover things they didn't particularly care for. A lot like the "avoid even the very appearance of evil" passage that gets flung around as another catch-all passage.

the rookie
Sep 9th 2010, 05:51 AM
Ah! Just caught the edit - appreciated the update! You're more in MY neck of the woods now. Love it!

Gotta miss those crazy Lee kids though...

ProjectPeter
Sep 9th 2010, 06:04 AM
Ah! Just caught the edit - appreciated the update! You're more in MY neck of the woods now. Love it!

Gotta miss those crazy Lee kids though...

Yeah... straight shot up the highway! Just a long, very windy, straight shot! :D

Hawkins
Sep 9th 2010, 08:17 AM
That's how we are rewarded instead of how we are saved.

We made spiritual contributions, as assigned by Christ. Paul was assigned to lay a theological foundation, that's his assigned task.

Then we will be rewarded accordingly after being saved. Similarly, it is said that when you receive a prophet you'll get a prophet's reward. We store up treasures in heaven.