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Firefighter
Sep 28th 2010, 05:10 PM
I hear this a lot, but I am not real sure I get it in the context of believing is not enough. I just don't think you can get there from here. Thoughts?

Vhayes
Sep 28th 2010, 05:12 PM
The demons believe that Jesus Christ is God the son. I would say they actually know it beyond the shadow of a doubt. The difference in my mind is that they have not acknowledged Him AS God of the Universe as well as their lives. It's the difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge.

HisLeast
Sep 28th 2010, 05:14 PM
I guess it shows precedence for believing, yet being opposed to God. If the demons can do it, why not people?

Firefighter
Sep 28th 2010, 05:26 PM
Because the fallen angels were never included in salvation's plan. ;)

ProDeo
Sep 28th 2010, 05:44 PM
I hear this a lot, but I am not real sure I get it in the context of believing is not enough. I just don't think you can get there from here. Thoughts?

Demons believe because they know (we don't) and yet they don't obey. Typical James using strong language in order to make his point: faith without works is dead, one the main theme's of his letter. Apparently the addressed people needed that message?

Firefighter
Sep 28th 2010, 05:49 PM
OK, suppose they decide to obey. Then what?

The Mighty Sword
Sep 28th 2010, 05:49 PM
I hear this a lot, but I am not real sure I get it in the context of believing is not enough. I just don't think you can get there from here. Thoughts?

No, no thoughts..............

HisLeast
Sep 28th 2010, 05:50 PM
OK, suppose they decide to obey. Then what?

I'll worry about the theological rammifications of that if it ever happens.

Firefighter
Sep 28th 2010, 05:54 PM
How do you know it hasn't?

HisLeast
Sep 28th 2010, 05:59 PM
How do you know it hasn't?

Having no insight into any realms beyond the purely physical, I can't say for certain that it hasn't. However, various truths lead me to believe it hasn't. Chiefly, we understand that for whatever purpose angels were created, they are not the same as man, and not for the same purpose as man. Given that angels (fallen or otherwise) are not part of the salvation plan, any choice angels truly had to be united with God was made in the distant past. Also given that we know what's in store for the fallen angels, its safe to assume their fate is already determined.

ProDeo
Sep 28th 2010, 06:04 PM
OK, suppose they decide to obey. Then what?

They have done the least.

Firefighter
Sep 28th 2010, 06:06 PM
Having no insight into any realms beyond the purely physical, I can't say for certain that it hasn't. However, various truths lead me to believe it hasn't. Chiefly, we understand that for whatever purpose angels were created, they are not the same as man, and not for the same purpose as man. Given that angels (fallen or otherwise) are not part of the salvation plan, any choice angels truly had to be united with God was made in the distant past. Also given that we know what's in store for the fallen angels, its safe to assume their fate is already determined.

EXACTLY. That is precisely why I don't get the comparison.

Redeemed by Grace
Sep 28th 2010, 07:42 PM
I hear this a lot, but I am not real sure I get it in the context of believing is not enough. I just don't think you can get there from here. Thoughts?

Let me give it a shot in explaining the value. James is all about testing for genuine faith, for it was written to the 12 tribes who are scattered... so these where real early Christians.

James does not assume salvation as sometimes Paul and Peter does within their writings to the churches, but sets out challenging the 12 tribes with pretty strong instruction for his readers to know truth from fiction throughout his entire letter.

There are many - but if any of you... and... prove yourselves, and... do nots and let nots within the letter -- and when James arrives to Chapter 2, he is showing that there are two types of faith, carnal [or temporal] faith and God-breathed faith.

It becomes more clear past James examples of chapter 2 with Abraham's and Rahab the harlot's faith to showing that real faith is God breathed, for which the demon's lacked.

James 3:15 explains the variance between the two faiths/lifes and verse 17 confirms that the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

So the demons believed, but their belief wasn't God breathed, yet they knew God, but were not of God in faith. That is what James is trying to convey -- know the metal of your faith and always test to see if it's real or phony. Again, James refrains from open acknowledgment to the faith of his audience, and writes to his readers to challenge them to examine what they believe and why they believe it and that it's the right thing to believe.

Butch5
Sep 28th 2010, 09:52 PM
The demons believe that Jesus Christ is God the son. I would say they actually know it beyond the shadow of a doubt. The difference in my mind is that they have not acknowledged Him AS God of the Universe as well as their lives. It's the difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge.

Hi V,

I've heard this a lot also, can you explain the difference?

Butch5
Sep 28th 2010, 09:58 PM
I hear this a lot, but I am not real sure I get it in the context of believing is not enough. I just don't think you can get there from here. Thoughts?

You probably won't like my answer but, James uses the same word for believe that John does in John 3:16, so the belief they speak of is the same. Why were the demons condemned? It was because they rebelled against God, it was their works that got them condemned. This is the point that James is making in his letter, believing simply is not enough, one must also obey.

Vhayes
Sep 28th 2010, 10:07 PM
Hi V,

I've heard this a lot also, can you explain the difference?
Knowing something with my head means I acknowledge it to be true. It's still a theory - as in, "I will love my children," said by a person who has yet to have children.

Heart knowledge is in the trenches. It's the person who says, "I love my children!" because they have just sacrificed a promotion at work because it meant they would spend time away from their children.

Does that makes sense?

I prove my faith by my works. My faith does not depend ON my works. Faith will always have an outgrowth of love. Works will MOST times have an outgrowth of self-righteousness unless it is founded on Christ.

Firefighter
Sep 28th 2010, 10:51 PM
This is the point that James is making in his letter, believing simply is not enough, one must also obey.

I am willing to agree that the point James was making is simply believing is not enough, one must believe enough to obey. :D

RogerW
Sep 28th 2010, 11:22 PM
I hear this a lot, but I am not real sure I get it in the context of believing is not enough. I just don't think you can get there from here. Thoughts?

What do they believe?

Jas*2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

There is but One God, proved by the light of nature, the works of creation, providence (conscience) and natural knowledge. The devils have this same natural, historical faith and knowledge that every human naturally have.

Ro*1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro*1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Ro*1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ro*1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Ro*1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Ro*1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

To have salvation or life in Christ, His righteousness must first be found, for God is holy, just and righteous, and in order to be "loved" by God, accepted in the Beloved, and justified before God, we MUST become righteous; not by our righteousness, which is filthy rags (Isa 64:6), but by His righteousness (Mt. 5:20; Ro 10:1-4). We obtain salvation through the gospel of Christ, for therein is the righteousness of God revealed (Ro 5:19; 2Co 5:21). This righteousness is not revealed by the light of nature, or through natural revelation, but IS revealed supernaturally by the power of the Word and Spirit (1Co 2:9,10). Salvation in Christ is reserved for people, not spirit beings.

Heb*2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb*2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

ThyWordIsTruth
Sep 29th 2010, 04:46 AM
I hear this a lot, but I am not real sure I get it in the context of believing is not enough. I just don't think you can get there from here. Thoughts?

It becomes clear when you look at the 2 examples of real saving faith in action - Abraham and Rahab. Real saving faith produces actions and choices which demonstrate that faith.

Abraham believed God's promise of raising a nation from his seed. In fact he believed God so much, he was willing to sacrifice Isaac on the altar because Hebrews 11 told us that he believed with all his heart that even if he killed Isaac, God would raise him up from the dead again.

Rahab similarly believed that the God of Israel is the real God. She believed so much that she was willing to risk her life to save the spies in order to free her from the coming destruction of Jericho. If she didn't believe, she wouldn't have done it, because she doesn't really know if Jericho was going to fall. Yet she believed it because God had promised to give all the nations in Canaan into the hands of Israel. She believed so much she risked her life on that belief, and her faith resulted in action.

The demons believe God also. They shudder when they think of Him. Yet their actions do not show they truly believe, because they rebelled against God and they constantly rebel.

Similarly many people claim they believe in God. Yet do their actions and choices in life show it? E.g. do they live for this world or the next? When adversity and hardship comes around, do they trust in God's promises and act in a way that demonstrate that they really do believe, or do they go about things their own way? That's what James is essentially saying I think.

Sirus
Sep 29th 2010, 05:14 AM
OK, suppose they decide to obey. Then what?scripture does not speak of this.

Sirus
Sep 29th 2010, 05:19 AM
You probably won't like my answer but, James uses the same word for believe that John does in John 3:16, so the belief they speak of is the same. Why were the demons condemned? It was because they rebelled against God, it was their works that got them condemned. This is the point that James is making in his letter, believing simply is not enough, one must also obey.Correct!
This is not a carnal or worldly belief. Belief is belief. There's only one. This is belief. They do in fact believe there is one God. Meaning, Judgment. They just don't do works that prove it and rebel against him. Like most professed christians.

tango
Sep 29th 2010, 07:40 AM
I hear this a lot, but I am not real sure I get it in the context of believing is not enough. I just don't think you can get there from here. Thoughts?

It's possible to believe that God exists without worshipping God... as indeed the devils do.

I guess it addresses the argument a lot of people make that they believe in God, they go to church, they seem to do all the right things on the outside but there's no sign of God on the inside.

Butch5
Sep 29th 2010, 12:42 PM
Knowing something with my head means I acknowledge it to be true. It's still a theory - as in, "I will love my children," said by a person who has yet to have children.

Heart knowledge is in the trenches. It's the person who says, "I love my children!" because they have just sacrificed a promotion at work because it meant they would spend time away from their children.

Does that makes sense?

I prove my faith by my works. My faith does not depend ON my works. Faith will always have an outgrowth of love. Works will MOST times have an outgrowth of self-righteousness unless it is founded on Christ.

That makes sense and goes to my point, works. That is exactly what James is talking about. The demons believe just like other who "only" believe. The difference between James and the demons is works. James has them the demons don't, or they do but they are evil works. James is kind of hitting on Jesus' statement in Matthew 7, ' Not everyone that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven'. The heart knowledge requires action on our part.

notuptome
Sep 29th 2010, 01:47 PM
I tried to post this earlier but the server went down...the devil musta not liked what I wrote.

James is speaking to his brother Jews when he says even the demons believe in God. The Jews believe in Jehovah God but deny Jesus Christ. Consider that the demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God Mat 8:29 and Son of the Holy One Mark 1:24 Felix beleived and trembled yet he would not receive Christ Acts 24:25 The demons knew that Paul was a servant of the Most High God Acts 16:17 also Acts 19:15. Athiests believe in God or else they would not strive against Him.

To be a Christian one must believe according to Rom 10:9-10 Vs 9 confess is homo, the same and logeo, to speak. to speak the same of Christ is to believe all that the scripture teaches of Him. His vicarious atonement, His resurrection from the tomb, and His ascention to the right hand of the Father on high. It is not enough to believe that Jesus is a great prophet or a moral man. Believe and receive a right knowledge of Christ according to the scriptures. John 17:13

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProDeo
Sep 29th 2010, 01:54 PM
EXACTLY. That is precisely why I don't get the comparison.

No comparison (metaphor) is 100% bullet proof. It's main use is to reduce the complicated to the simple.

Matt 13:24 The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:.......

It does not mean God is a farmer.

That would expand the simple to the complicated. ;)

Firefighter
Sep 29th 2010, 02:34 PM
I fear of pointing out the obvious, "even the demons believe and tremble" is not a metaphor.

ProDeo
Sep 29th 2010, 05:18 PM
I fear of pointing out the obvious, "even the demons believe and tremble" is not a metaphor.

:huh:

Then skip the word metaphor, the message of my contribution still stands. James's comparison is just fine with me. If you read more in James's words as intended by him complications start. James's message was: faith without works is dead. To strengthen his point he used a spicy fact.

embankmentlb
Sep 29th 2010, 11:14 PM
Believing Jesus is the son of God gets you know place. Countless devils have known this from Jesus birth. King Herod, the Pharisees, 99% of Jews & Satin himself knew Jesus was the Chosen one. They all rejected him. Excepting him as your savior is what is important.

losthorizon
Sep 30th 2010, 02:01 AM
Believing Jesus is the son of God gets you know place.


Believing Jesus is the Son of God is required if one is to be His disciple.

Sirus
Sep 30th 2010, 04:02 AM
Given that angels (fallen or otherwise) are not part of the salvation plan,no part of the salvation plan?


1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
If you mean they don't get to believe, having not seen, and desire to look into the faith, then I agree.


any choice angels truly had to be united with God was made in the distant past.they cannot disobey today?
What Scripture do you base any of this on? What? Are they robots or something? Weren't but are now? This just doesn't make any sense.

And how do you say

'are not part of the salvation plan'
then

'any choice angels truly had to be united with God'
Sounds like a contradiction to me.

kay-gee
Oct 2nd 2010, 03:13 AM
Trouble is...many Believe IN Him, but do not BELIEVE HIM (as in believe in what He says) This is why I believe Mark 16:16 and other verses are so difficult for many.

all the best...

ProjectPeter
Oct 2nd 2010, 03:16 AM
Demons believe because they know (we don't) and yet they don't obey. Typical James using strong language in order to make his point: faith without works is dead, one the main theme's of his letter. Apparently the addressed people needed that message?
Actually... they obey much better than most Christian's do. Ponder that. :)

What they believe... God is God. The One God. Jame's point... you believe that too... so what?

-SEEKING-
Oct 2nd 2010, 03:25 AM
Trouble is...many Believe IN Him, but do not BELIEVE HIM (as in believe in what He says) This is why I believe Mark 16:16 and other verses are so difficult for many.

all the best...

Seems pretty simple to me. Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." - NASB

Slug1
Oct 2nd 2010, 03:37 AM
Believing Jesus is the Son of God is required if one is to be His disciple.If a demon believes that Jesus is the Savior and a person believes that Jesus is the Savior... what does this get either of them?

Nothing!

They have to believe that Jesus is "their" Savior... then discipleship begins.

Sirus
Oct 2nd 2010, 04:15 AM
Actually... they obey much better than most Christian's do. Ponder that. :)

What they believe... God is God. The One God. Jame's point... you believe that too... so what?:thumbsup:
.......

Firstfruits
Oct 2nd 2010, 03:06 PM
I hear this a lot, but I am not real sure I get it in the context of believing is not enough. I just don't think you can get there from here. Thoughts?

They believe but thet do not obey.

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Jn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

God bless!

Firstfruits