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BroRog
Oct 6th 2010, 05:25 PM
I'd like to explore the concept of the fruits of the Spirit in terms of our "cooperation" with the Spirit and what that might look like. Is it possible to see the fruits of the spirit in terms of the believer and the Holy Spirit working together to produce love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control, which is a result not obtainable by either the believer or the Holy Spirit independently? And if so, can we give examples of how this works in practical terms in everyday life?

To start the discussion, I would like to copy and paste a point I made in another thread.

The spiritual gift of faith, it seems to me, relates to the ability to perform miracles under God's direction. We get a hint of this from Paul's word on the primacy of love,


If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. (1Cor. 13:1-2)Paul associates the spiritual gift of faith with removing mountains, which he contrasts with love, which if a man does the first without having the second, he is nothing.

Following this, he describes love and how love manifests itself and in that description he says that love "rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things." In this we learn that there is a kind of faith that removes mountains, but there is also a kind of faith that rejoices in the truth and believes all things. Paul considers the first apart from love, but he considers the second to be an aspect of love and a rejoicing in the truth.

The fruit of faith, then, must be substantially different than the gift of faith, in so much as a man with the gift of faith is nothing without love, which rejoices with the truth and believes all things. The man with the gift of faith, which will pass away, who does not also have the fruit of faith which will never pass away is empty and nothing.

If there are "fruits" of the spirit, there must also be a "tree" of the spirit in the sense that love, hope, faith, gentleness, kindness etc. must be the consequence of something substantial in the inner man of the one who loves, hopes, etc. So, in some sense, these qualities of the spirit are characteristics of the man or woman, who is also in cooperation with the Holy Spirit who dwells with the believer.

We can take this discussion any way you want to go. What are your thoughts?

Zack702
Oct 6th 2010, 06:26 PM
What about the parable of the sower of seed.
Are we like the soil or the place where the seed falls ?
In that even though the seed will do what it purposed the elements of the place where it falls may cause the fruit of the seed a early fate.

Or is there another way to see the soil or the place where the seed falls ?

Slug1
Oct 6th 2010, 06:26 PM
I'd like to explore the concept of the fruits of the Spirit in terms of our "cooperation" with the Spirit and what that might look like. Is it possible to see the fruits of the spirit in terms of the believer and the Holy Spirit working together to produce love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control, which is a result not obtainable by either the believer or the Holy Spirit independently? And if so, can we give examples of how this works in practical terms in everyday life? This portion may need to be addressed more indepth. Here is why I say this... many secular people display all these examples of Fruit of the Holy Spirit, STRONGER in their lives, than many Christians. We know that any secular person has no Holy Spirit in them to enable them in any way, yet they are loving, full of joy, peacful, very patient etc.

Now, I know when a Christian is weak and the world is falling on their shoulders yet through the enablement of of the Holy Spirit they display all the examples of Fruit you listed... then we can know it's through this enablement. A person who has lost their job, is loosing their home, car... about to be put out on the street yet they can go to curch and the faith they display and the joy they have "in" them and all this shines from them so others are lifted by the faith and joy from a Christian in such a bad situation... here we have something not attainable without the Holy Spirit.

When we are put through such dire a trial as this example, the real us may emerge and if we give it all to God, rest in His hand. Then God will be allowed to shine forth as we are filled by Him to the point of overflowing.

We all hear the "less of me, more of YOU" spoken by many Christians... well, the less of us... the more of Him we will be and by the Fruit, will be the evidence.

Some of my thoughts... so far :lol:

BroRog
Oct 6th 2010, 08:46 PM
What about the parable of the sower of seed.
Are we like the soil or the place where the seed falls ?
In that even though the seed will do what it purposed the elements of the place where it falls may cause the fruit of the seed a early fate.

Or is there another way to see the soil or the place where the seed falls ?If I understand you correctly, you are associating the fruit of the Spirit found in Galatians with the fruit of perseverence found in the parable of the soils. Is this correct? If so, I think I like this and makes sense, though I think salvation is the ultimate fruit in Jesus' parable. The fruits of the Spirit would also seem to be the result of hearing God's word with a good an honest heart.

notuptome
Oct 6th 2010, 08:47 PM
The fruits of the Holy Spirit cannot be produced without the Holy Spirits presence in the life of the believer. The works of the flesh are produced by those who have not the Holy Spirit.

We are cautioned that we cannot serve two masters. Either we serve Christ and produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit or we serve the flesh and those works are manifest.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

MoreMercy
Oct 6th 2010, 08:48 PM
I know, I know the bible list 7 gifts and preachers teach the seven gifts, but I say to you who have that deposit of His Spirit in you, that every ability you posses, from language to walking, from owning a business to working your skills. All of them are gifts and if you do not use them to glorify your Father IE; building His kingdom on earth then you will be rewarded accordingly and justly.
AND using those gifts will produce said Fruit.

I say: That every ability that a person possess once having the Spirit of God deposited in them. ALL of their abilities become His gifts (the gifts of the Holy Spirit of God) and we will be rewarded according to how we use said gifts.
Every part of you, if you have the deposit of His Spirit in you is to be used as a gift to our fellows, to work Fathers will upon this earth, not just the 7 gifts commonly refereed to as "the gifts" of the Holy Spirit, but every, EVERY single ability you posses is now a gift of His Holy Spirit.
AND using those gifts will produce said Fruit.

BroRog
Oct 6th 2010, 08:51 PM
This portion may need to be addressed more indepth. Here is why I say this... many secular people display all these examples of Fruit of the Holy Spirit, STRONGER in their lives, than many Christians. We know that any secular person has no Holy Spirit in them to enable them in any way, yet they are loving, full of joy, peacful, very patient etc.

Now, I know when a Christian is weak and the world is falling on their shoulders yet through the enablement of of the Holy Spirit they display all the examples of Fruit you listed... then we can know it's through this enablement. A person who has lost their job, is loosing their home, car... about to be put out on the street yet they can go to curch and the faith they display and the joy they have "in" them and all this shines from them so others are lifted by the faith and joy from a Christian in such a bad situation... here we have something not attainable without the Holy Spirit.

When we are put through such dire a trial as this example, the real us may emerge and if we give it all to God, rest in His hand. Then God will be allowed to shine forth as we are filled by Him to the point of overflowing.

We all hear the "less of me, more of YOU" spoken by many Christians... well, the less of us... the more of Him we will be and by the Fruit, will be the evidence.

Some of my thoughts... so far :lol:I think I hear what you are saying. You seem to be saying that since the Holy Spirit is working with us, our love, joy, peace and etc. goes beyond what the world would expect or experience, since by cooperation with the Spirit, we experience love, joy, peace, etc. even during the real hard times of suffering and hardship. Is that right?

BroRog
Oct 6th 2010, 08:54 PM
The fruits of the Holy Spirit cannot be produced without the Holy Spirits presence in the life of the believer. The works of the flesh are produced by those who have not the Holy Spirit.

We are cautioned that we cannot serve two masters. Either we serve Christ and produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit or we serve the flesh and those works are manifest.

For the cause of Christ
RogerIsn't it true, though, that the believer has a "holy spirit" of sorts? I agree with you that the fruits of the Spirit are produced in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, but at the same time, I think that the Holy Spirit changes us such that we are different in some way. I mean, when we became believers wasn't there some kind of inner change that took place also?

BroRog
Oct 6th 2010, 08:59 PM
I know, I know the bible list 7 gifts and preachers teach the seven gifts, but I say to you who have that deposit of His Spirit in you, that every ability you posses, from language to walking, from owning a business to working your skills. All of them are gifts and if you do not use them to glorify your Father IE; building His kingdom on earth then you will be rewarded accordingly and justly.
AND using those gifts will produce said Fruit.

I say: That every ability that a person possess once having the Spirit of God deposited in them. ALL of their abilities become His gifts (the gifts of the Holy Spirit of God) and we will be rewarded according to how we use said gifts.
Every part of you, if you have the deposit of His Spirit in you is to be used as a gift to our fellows, to work Fathers will upon this earth, not just the 7 gifts commonly refereed to as "the gifts" of the Holy Spirit, but every, EVERY single ability you posses is now a gift of His Holy Spirit.
AND using those gifts will produce said Fruit.Okay, I see what you are saying and I agree with you in a general sense. But the fruits of the spirit seem to be attributes that would apply in any area of life, whether personal life, business life or whatever. I mean, I understand what you are saying about how we are using our very existence to glorify God. And that is true, and I agree with it. But the fruits of the Spirit also describe something special about those who experience them, right?

MoreMercy
Oct 6th 2010, 09:10 PM
Okay, I see what you are saying and I agree with you in a general sense. But the fruits of the spirit seem to be attributes that would apply in any area of life, whether personal life, business life or whatever. I mean, I understand what you are saying about how we are using our very existence to glorify God. And that is true, and I agree with it. But the fruits of the Spirit also describe something special about those who experience them, right?

Thank you I am ever guessing if I leave my opinions understandable.
The fruit of the spirit is literally what its description implies 'its fruit'
IE;
Disobedient trees produce disobedient fruit of its own spirit.
Obedient trees produce obedient fruit of its own spirit. <--- fruit of the Holy Spirit


Do I understand your question correctly ?
Father bless.

BroRog
Oct 6th 2010, 10:32 PM
Thank you I am ever guessing if I leave my opinions understandable.
The fruit of the spirit is literally what its description implies 'its fruit'
IE;
Disobedient trees produce disobedient fruit of its own spirit.
Obedient trees produce obedient fruit of its own spirit. <--- fruit of the Holy Spirit


Do I understand your question correctly ?
Father bless.
Yes, you have. And I understand your point about the trees. Thanks.

watchinginawe
Oct 7th 2010, 04:52 AM
I'd like to explore the concept of the fruits of the Spirit in terms of our "cooperation" with the Spirit and what that might look like. Is it possible to see the fruits of the spirit in terms of the believer and the Holy Spirit working together to produce love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control, which is a result not obtainable by either the believer or the Holy Spirit independently? And if so, can we give examples of how this works in practical terms in everyday life? I think that is exactly how it works. The fruit of the Spirit is yielded by us, so that in the least defines our participation in the matter. I believe that since Paul is teaching on the topic it shows that our understanding and cooperation in the Spirit is how this fruit is yielded. I don't think this means that patience is only found as a fruit of the Spirit, but rather that godly patience (that which is of and pleases God) is only found as a fruit of the Spirit.

Let's consider 2 Peter 1 on the matter as well: 2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Peter says that we are partakers of the Holy Spirit (divine nature). I won't go into that passage in depth but I wanted to offer a lexicon for that word "partakers": ( http://studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=2844 (http://studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=2844) )


Strongs 2844
a partner, associate, comrade, companion


To start the discussion, I would like to copy and paste a point I made in another thread.



The spiritual gift of faith, it seems to me, relates to the ability to perform miracles under God's direction. We get a hint of this from Paul's word on the primacy of love,


If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. (1Cor. 13:1-2)
Paul associates the spiritual gift of faith with removing mountains, which he contrasts with love, which if a man does the first without having the second, he is nothing.

Following this, he describes love and how love manifests itself and in that description he says that love "rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things." In this we learn that there is a kind of faith that removes mountains, but there is also a kind of faith that rejoices in the truth and believes all things. Paul considers the first apart from love, but he considers the second to be an aspect of love and a rejoicing in the truth.

The fruit of faith, then, must be substantially different than the gift of faith, in so much as a man with the gift of faith is nothing without love, which rejoices with the truth and believes all things. The man with the gift of faith, which will pass away, who does not also have the fruit of faith which will never pass away is empty and nothing.

If there are "fruits" of the spirit, there must also be a "tree" of the spirit in the sense that love, hope, faith, gentleness, kindness etc. must be the consequence of something substantial in the inner man of the one who loves, hopes, etc. So, in some sense, these qualities of the spirit are characteristics of the man or woman, who is also in cooperation with the Holy Spirit who dwells with the believer.

We can take this discussion any way you want to go. What are your thoughts? I agree that the fruit of the Spirit are not "gifted" and are separate than a manifested Spiritual gift.

I was reading some commentaries recently on this fruit of faith, or faithfulness, so I will offer a couple of them since you brought it up. They differ a bit but I like the points given by each:

Martin Luther's Commentary on Galatians (love believes all things): ( http://studylight.org/com/mlg/view.cgi?book=ga&chapter=005 )

FAITH In listing faith among the fruits of the Spirit, Paul obviously does not mean faith in Christ, but faith in men. Such faith is not suspicious of people but believes the best. Naturally the possessor of such faith will be deceived, but he lets it pass. He is ready to believe all men, but he will not trust all men. Where this virtue is lacking men are suspicious, forward, and wayward and will believe nothing nor yield to anybody. No matter how well a person says or does anything, they will find fault with it, and if you do not humor them you can never please them. It is quite impossible to get along with them. Such faith in people therefore, is quite necessary. What kind of life would this be if one person could not believe another person?


Barnes' Notes on the New Testament (faithfulness): (http://studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=ga&chapter=005&verse=001#Ga5_1 )

Faith. On the meaning of the word faith, See Barnes "Mark 16:16 (http://studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=mr&chapter=16#Mr16_16)". The word here may be used in the sense of fidelity, and may denote that the Christian will be a faithful man--a man faithful to his word and promises; a man who can be trusted or confided in. It is probable that the word is used in this sense because the object of the apostle is not to speak of the feelings which we have towards God, so much as to illustrate the influences of the Spirit in directing and controlling our feelings towards men. True religion makes a man faithful. The Christian is faithful as a man; faithful as a neighbour, friend, father, husband, son. He is faithful to his contracts; faithful to his promises. No man can be a Christian who is not thus faithful; and all pretensions to being under the influences of the Spirit, when such fidelity does not exist, are deceitful and vain.

BroRog
Oct 7th 2010, 03:33 PM
I think that is exactly how it works. The fruit of the Spirit is yielded by us, so that in the least defines our participation in the matter. I believe that since Paul is teaching on the topic it shows that our understanding and cooperation in the Spirit is how this fruit is yielded. I don't think this means that patience is only found as a fruit of the Spirit, but rather that godly patience (that which is of and pleases God) is only found as a fruit of the Spirit.

Let's consider 2 Peter 1 on the matter as well: 2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Peter says that we are partakers of the Holy Spirit (divine nature). I won't go into that passage in depth but I wanted to offer a lexicon for that word "partakers": ( http://studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=2844 (http://studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=2844) )


Strongs 2844
a partner, associate, comrade, companion

I agree that the fruit of the Spirit are not "gifted" and are separate than a manifested Spiritual gift.

I was reading some commentaries recently on this fruit of faith, or faithfulness, so I will offer a couple of them since you brought it up. They differ a bit but I like the points given by each:

Martin Luther's Commentary on Galatians (love believes all things): ( http://studylight.org/com/mlg/view.cgi?book=ga&chapter=005 )

FAITH In listing faith among the fruits of the Spirit, Paul obviously does not mean faith in Christ, but faith in men. Such faith is not suspicious of people but believes the best. Naturally the possessor of such faith will be deceived, but he lets it pass. He is ready to believe all men, but he will not trust all men. Where this virtue is lacking men are suspicious, forward, and wayward and will believe nothing nor yield to anybody. No matter how well a person says or does anything, they will find fault with it, and if you do not humor them you can never please them. It is quite impossible to get along with them. Such faith in people therefore, is quite necessary. What kind of life would this be if one person could not believe another person?


Barnes' Notes on the New Testament (faithfulness): (http://studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=ga&chapter=005&verse=001#Ga5_1 )

Faith. On the meaning of the word faith, See Barnes "Mark 16:16 (http://studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=mr&chapter=16#Mr16_16)". The word here may be used in the sense of fidelity, and may denote that the Christian will be a faithful man--a man faithful to his word and promises; a man who can be trusted or confided in. It is probable that the word is used in this sense because the object of the apostle is not to speak of the feelings which we have towards God, so much as to illustrate the influences of the Spirit in directing and controlling our feelings towards men. True religion makes a man faithful. The Christian is faithful as a man; faithful as a neighbour, friend, father, husband, son. He is faithful to his contracts; faithful to his promises. No man can be a Christian who is not thus faithful; and all pretensions to being under the influences of the Spirit, when such fidelity does not exist, are deceitful and vain.I'm not sure where Martin Luther is coming from. It appears to me as if he thinks that "faith" in this instance is "saying you believe a person, whether you do or not, in order to make peace with him." I don't agree with that idea. I think we should believe those who are believable, trust the trustworthy, have faith in the faithful, and such.

I like where Barnes was going with his interpretation but after further reflection, I'm not certain that each item on the list must necessarily apply to our feelings for human beings. Our motivation for being faithful, it seems to me, can be our wish to imitate God and walk as his children, rather than a concern for the feelings of other people. I will be faithful because God is faithful, not because it will go well with my fellow man, though this is also a good thing. I'm not saying that being concerned for the welfare of others isn't a good thing. It is. But I'm asking whether faithfulness necessarily falls under that category, i.e. being concerned for the welfare of others, or whether faithfulness isn't something we do independantly of how it will affect others?

notuptome
Oct 7th 2010, 03:45 PM
Isn't it true, though, that the believer has a "holy spirit" of sorts? I agree with you that the fruits of the Spirit are produced in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, but at the same time, I think that the Holy Spirit changes us such that we are different in some way. I mean, when we became believers wasn't there some kind of inner change that took place also?
We were completely changed by our new birth in Christ. 2 Cor 5:17 We could do no good thing in our unregenerate state. All of our water was from a bitter well if you will. Rom 3:10-12 Every believer has The Holy Spirit as I do not know what you mean by "a holy spirit".

Our working is now done not by our will but by the will of God. Eph 2:10 describs us a His workmanship created unto good works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Oct 7th 2010, 04:20 PM
We were completely changed by our new birth in Christ. 2 Cor 5:17 We could do no good thing in our unregenerate state. All of our water was from a bitter well if you will. Rom 3:10-12 Every believer has The Holy Spirit as I do not know what you mean by "a holy spirit".

Our working is now done not by our will but by the will of God. Eph 2:10 describs us a His workmanship created unto good works.

For the cause of Christ
RogerWhat I mean is that each of us has our own spirit. The spirit of each child of God has become sanctified by the Holy Spirit. And as such, each child of God has a "holy spirit" of his own, if you will. (I'm not trying to be weird, it's just a play on words, based on Romans 8.)

MoreMercy
Oct 8th 2010, 03:31 PM
I have thought and still do that Adam was the ONLY man in history to have the Spirit of God/the Holy Spirit breathed into him.
Whether Adam can pass that same Spirit to his prodigy is not recorded in scripture that I am aware of at the moment.
Each of us still walking are flesh vessels, period. Vessels to be inhabited, period. Inhabited by spirits, period.
And from what I see, saw and read in scripture each of these said vessels are inhabited by a spirit, spirits or Spirit.
Before anyone jumps to any conclusions of what I am trying to communicate: please allow me to drag you here first.
I have a friend who I probably admire more than I should, this friend of mine is a confessing non-believer in God, but that is not the point. The point I want to bring from this example is this:
This friend I mentioned has all but forsaken God but only because of the way God has been presented to Him by Gods creatures in this present day, BUT this same friend displays more attributes of the Holy Spirit than most of Gods confessing believers do.
That friend of mine even shows/produces evidence of good fruit from his spirit.
I see more good fruit come from my friends humble spirit than I see good fruit coming from most who do confess to believe....

Confessing Father as the creator and Christ as His son, our King and Savior does not breath Fathers Spirit into a man.
Walking in or under obedience to Father's Words is what inhabits us with His Spirit

Please don't take one of my sentences and draw conclusions from that one sentence out of context of what I am communicating as a whole in this post.
Please chew on the first and last of what I communicated in this post to understand what I try to communicate.

We all are vessels of spirits friends, Adam is the only man I know of who had Fathers Spirit breathed into him.
We get inhabited by Fathers Spirit when we are and stay obedient to Him, period.
And, we can grieve that same Spirit and it will depart from us when grieved. We do not have Fathers Spirit breathed into us as Adam did, we are free to walk under Fathers Spirit/be inhabited by His Spirit by our obedience to Him, but are also free to walk under another spirit at the same time, which will grieve Fathers Spirit and it will depart from us until we repent and return under the wing of His Spirit again by remaining obedient.
Fruits do come from the spirits we walk under, good fruit and bad fruit too, depending upon which spirit we walk under/are obedient to at any particular moment.

Father allows me credibility among my fellows, when I allow my fellows the chance to sharpen me.



Father bless.
pray for my friend.

Beautiful Loser
Oct 8th 2010, 06:23 PM
What I mean is that each of us has our own spirit. The spirit of each child of God has become sanctified by the Holy Spirit. And as such, each child of God has a "holy spirit" of his own, if you will. (I'm not trying to be weird, it's just a play on words, based on Romans 8.)

Or it could be Paul is using the word spirit more like soul is used elsewhere. Take this verse for instance:

If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. Rom 8:10

Now there isn't any linguistics to back this up. Pneuma (spirit) is pretty universal in the NT and Paul doesn't use psuche (soul) much (or the NT for that matter) but he does make distinctions with it when he wants to (1 Thess 5:23). But I bring it up as it is always the soul that is redeemed and we are given a new Spirit. Which the above verse conforms to if we read 'spirit' more akin to how 'soul' is used. Sometimes the lines are clear between spirit and soul and others not so much. Just a thought.



Please don't take one of my sentences and draw conclusions from that one sentence out of context of what I am communicating as a whole in this post.
Please chew on the first and last of what I communicated in this post to understand what I try to communicate.


I truly hope I did not. If I did I apologize.




I have thought and still do that Adam was the ONLY man in history to have the Spirit of God/the Holy Spirit breathed into him.
Whether Adam can pass that same Spirit to his prodigy is not recorded in scripture that I am aware of at the moment.


If you are referring to Gen 2:7

Then the LORD God formed man of the dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Gen 2:7

This breath of life is also found in everything that is alive:

All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Gen 7:21,22

As for it only happening one time we have these:

You send forth your Spirit, they are created; and You renew the face of the ground. Psa 104:30

Thus says God the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it. Isa 42:5

For each of us God's Spirit was sent to create us and for each of us it says God gives us our breath. Is giving us our breath the same as breathing it into us?


Each of us still walking are flesh vessels, period. Vessels to be inhabited, period. Inhabited by spirits, period.


Our vessels are inhabited for sure, we have an inner and an outer. And our inner can exist without the outer shell (although we will get another). But look at Gen 2:7 closely it is interesting.

Then the LORD God formed man of the dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Gen 2:7

First 'living being' is nephesh the word for soul. Literally it says man became a living soul. Since I am not a Hebrew scholar I refer you to Paul:

So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life giving spirit. 1 Cor 15:45

God formed man from the ground, then breathed life into that form and from those two, the breath of life giving life to formed ground, arose a soul. The soul isn't just plopped into a ready container, the container is a necessary part for the creation of the soul. Pretty cool.

BroRog
Oct 8th 2010, 06:33 PM
Or it could be Paul is using the word spirit more like soul is used elsewhere. Take this verse for instance:

If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. Rom 8:10

Now there isn't any linguistics to back this up. Pneuma (spirit) is pretty universal in the NT and Paul doesn't use psuche (soul) much (or the NT for that matter) but he does make distinctions with it when he wants to (1 Thess 5:23). But I bring it up as it is always the soul that is redeemed and we are given a new Spirit. Which the above verse conforms to if we read 'spirit' more akin to how 'soul' is used. Sometimes the lines are clear between spirit and soul and others not so much. Just a thought.Good thought. I think he used the term "spirit" so as to keep his comparison balanced, but you are right, he was probably using the term to speak about our inner life, whether we call this a spirit or a soul.

P.S. did you take your screen name from the Be Attitudes? Blessed are the losers? :)

Beautiful Loser
Oct 8th 2010, 07:33 PM
P.S. did you take your screen name from the Be Attitudes? Blessed are the losers? :)

Can I claim a measure of grace on this one?

Bob Seger's song Beautiful Loser is where the idea came from. Not so much his lyrics but we are losers, which God has made beautiful.

But the idea is based off of this passage which Jesus' message comes from:

... thus says the Lord God, 'Remove the turban and take off the crown; this will no longer be the same. Exalt that which is low and abase that which is high. Ezek 21:26

BroRog
Oct 8th 2010, 11:18 PM
Can I claim a measure of grace on this one?

Bob Seger's song Beautiful Loser is where the idea came from. Not so much his lyrics but we are losers, which God has made beautiful.

But the idea is based off of this passage which Jesus' message comes from:

... thus says the Lord God, 'Remove the turban and take off the crown; this will no longer be the same. Exalt that which is low and abase that which is high. Ezek 21:26Yeah, no problem. :) I'll have to give the song a listen. Welcome to the forum. :)

watchinginawe
Oct 9th 2010, 05:08 PM
I'm not sure where Martin Luther is coming from. It appears to me as if he thinks that "faith" in this instance is "saying you believe a person, whether you do or not, in order to make peace with him." I don't agree with that idea. I think we should believe those who are believable, trust the trustworthy, have faith in the faithful, and such. I don't think that is what Martin Luther was suggesting at all. Martin Luther isn't suggesting merely being agreeable in all circumstances.

Reading your original post again I am not quite sure now what your point was regarding the difference between the gift of faith and the fruit of faith and your examples of each, especially with regards to "believeth all things". Your original post provoked my memory of Martin Luther's commentary, but now I am not so sure we were thinking along the same lines after all. :lol: Regardless, I believe Martin Luther makes the point that it is the fruit of faith which is in the same vein as:

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Charity... thinketh no evil;... believeth all things

You ask where perhaps Martin Luther was coming from. He begins this section of discussion by first addressing love, so that is where the rest comes from. Consider his first point to see where he was coming from in his commentary regarding the fruit of faith: ( http://studylight.org/com/mlg/view.cgi?book=ga&chapter=005 )

LOVE
It would have been enough to mention only the single fruit of love, for love embraces all the fruits of the Spirit. In I Corinthians 13, Paul attributes to love all the fruits of the Spirit: "Charity suffereth long, and is kind," etc. Here he lets love stand by itself among other fruits of the Spirit to remind the Christians to love one another, "in honor preferring one another," to esteem others more than themselves because they have Christ and the Holy Ghost within them.

So Martin Luther emphasizes the fruit of having faith in others that is found in loving others. He isn't suggesting to pretend to believe someone just for the sake of agreeableness, but rather we should extend what many of us claim to do when we give another the benefit of the doubt. We are to be prejudiced to believe others in love (believeth all things) and we are not to be prejudiced in suspicion of kindness or in maliciousness of rumor (thinketh no evil). I think the later means that we don't look gift horses in the mouth (thinketh no eveil). :lol:


The point is that the two (or at least the two) must work in conjunction. When we hear gossip concerning another do we "believeth all things" and thus yield the fruit of faith? Of course not. We are to "believeth all things" and "thinketh no evil" at the same time and thus yield the fruit of faith.

Paul's example might be made a bit earlier in the chapter:

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.


I like where Barnes was going with his interpretation but after further reflection, I'm not certain that each item on the list must necessarily apply to our feelings for human beings. Our motivation for being faithful, it seems to me, can be our wish to imitate God and walk as his children, rather than a concern for the feelings of other people. I will be faithful because God is faithful, not because it will go well with my fellow man, though this is also a good thing. I'm not saying that being concerned for the welfare of others isn't a good thing. It is. But I'm asking whether faithfulness necessarily falls under that category, i.e. being concerned for the welfare of others, or whether faithfulness isn't something we do independantly of how it will affect others? :hmm: The fruit is of the Spirit, not us. I like your point about our motivation, but I don't think our motivation need be anything other than willing submission. What is God's motivation for what He desires to do within and through us? As you offered, we are faithful as a result of God being faithful. That is why faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit. Otherwise it would be the fruit of something else. We are faithful to God, and God through us makes us faithful in many other things.

To the idea that walking in the Spirit means something other than God dwelling and working Himself within us, I don't think there are many ways to understand this other than God actively interacting within us Spiritually. This is not, IMO, merely the result of ideas, scripture, or a different way of looking at things working within us. (NOTE: I am not saying that others are offering this, I am just discussing my strong conviction of Paul meaning in Galatians 5 that there is an active cooperation between God and man when we "walk in the Spirit".) Those things might work within us but only with the direction of the Holy Spirit will they bring forth fruit of the Spirit.

Jesus put it like this in John 14:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

BroRog
Oct 9th 2010, 07:15 PM
I don't think that is what Martin Luther was suggesting at all. Martin Luther isn't suggesting merely being agreeable in all circumstances.

Reading your original post again I am not quite sure now what your point was regarding the difference between the gift of faith and the fruit of faith and your examples of each, especially with regards to "believeth all things". Your original post provoked my memory of Martin Luther's commentary, but now I am not so sure we were thinking along the same lines after all.The distinction I see between the fruits of the Spirit and the Gifts of the Spirit is essentially the difference between the eternal and the transitory. In 1Corinthians 13, Paul contrasts the transitory, i.e. things that pass away, with the eternal, i.e. things that endure. Love never fails, he says. But prophecies, tongues, and words of knowledge will pass away. While other things will pass with this age, faith, hope, and love will endure into the next age.

The gifts of the spirit function to edify each believer and to bring each believer to a full knowledge of Christ. As such the gifts of the Spirit will no longer be necessary in the next age where each believer will be fully edified and have a complete knowledge of Jesus Christ. Once we reach our maturity in the next age, the gifts of the Spirit will no longer be need in just the same way that we no longer need our school work from grade school.

By contrast, the fruits of the Spirit describe eternal virtues that will always be applicable, whether in this age or the next. It will always be appropriate to love others. It will always be appropriate to be gentile, and kind, and find joy, etc. These fruits will always last and always be with us. There will never be a time when it will be said, "there is a time for love and a time where love is not necessary." Love is always necessary, always appropriate, and as eternal as God is.


LOVE
It would have been enough to mention only the single fruit of love, for love embraces all the fruits of the Spirit. In I Corinthians 13, Paul attributes to love all the fruits of the Spirit: "Charity suffereth long, and is kind," etc. Here he lets love stand by itself among other fruits of the Spirit to remind the Christians to love one another, "in honor preferring one another," to esteem others more than themselves because they have Christ and the Holy Ghost within them.

So Martin Luther emphasizes the fruit of having faith in others that is found in loving others. He isn't suggesting to pretend to believe someone just for the sake of agreeableness, but rather we should extend what many of us claim to do when we give another the benefit of the doubt. We are to be prejudiced to believe others in love (believeth all things) and we are not to be prejudiced in suspicion of kindness or in maliciousness of rumor (thinketh no evil). I think the later means that we don't look gift horses in the mouth (thinketh no eveil). :lol:
Given my criteria above, then, I ask myself whether "giving another person the benefit of the doubt" is as eternal as love is. To ask it another way, when Paul says that love "believes all things" is he saying that love takes another person's word on trust, or is he saying that love believes everything that ought to be believed, such as the gospel message etc.? This is a little harder to answer.

The fact that Paul is looking at the idea of Love, coming at this central point from different angles is apparent to me. When he says that love is patient, kind, etc. as a list of attributes, one can ask whether "believes all things" is on that list as a unique item, or whether "believes all things" modifies the concept of "rejoices with the truth." I think "believes all things" is not a unique item on the list, but modifies and describes the concept "rejoices with the truth." In outline form the difference would look like this.

Luther's interpretation:

Love is:
a) patient
b) kind
c) not jealous
. . .
j) rejoices with the truth
k) bears all things
l) believes all things
m) hopes all things
n)endures all things

My interpretation:

Love is:
a) patient
b) kind
c) not jealous
. . .
j) rejoices with the truth
j.1) bears all things
j.2) believes all things
j.3) hopes all things
j.4) endures all thingsIn other words, to bear, believe, hope, and endure all things is just as eternal as love is, and are subcategories that fall under the category of "rejoices with the truth." If I am right, then, to believe all things isn't to give another person the benefit of the doubt, but to share in his or her appreciation of the truth. Since I rejoice in the truth, I will bear all hardships in support of the truth, I will believe all things that the apostles have taught us, hope in the things that the apostles anticipated, and endure in the truth.



The fruit is of the Spirit, not us. I like your point about our motivation, but I don't think our motivation need be anything other than willing submission. What is God's motivation for what He desires to do within and through us? As you offered, we are faithful as a result of God being faithful. That is why faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit. Otherwise it would be the fruit of something else. We are faithful to God, and God through us makes us faithful in many other things.Why do you say the fruit of the Spirit is not the fruit of us? If we are cooperating with the Spirit, then in a certain sense it is our fruit also, just as surely as in tennis doubles each player takes credit for winning. I resist the philosophical view of some Christians who think that cooperation with the Spirit of God means annihilation of the believer. It isn't the case, as in Star Wars, where we get ourselves out of the way so that the Spirit (force) can act. I may be cooperating with the Spirit but it's me doing it.


To the idea that walking in the Spirit means something other than God dwelling and working Himself within us, I don't think there are many ways to understand this other than God actively interacting within us Spiritually. This is not, IMO, merely the result of ideas, scripture, or a different way of looking at things working within us. (NOTE: I am not saying that others are offering this, I am just discussing my strong conviction of Paul meaning in Galatians 5 that there is an active cooperation between God and man when we "walk in the Spirit".) Those things might work within us but only with the direction of the Holy Spirit will they bring forth fruit of the Spirit.I understand this point of view and since I am sympathetic with it, I cautiously raise this next point. I wonder if it is fair to say that without the Holy Spirit, one can not love, or be kind, or generous, or patient, etc. As I look around, I see that most human beings are capable of these things without the help of the Holy Spirit. And I think it wouldn't change Paul's point at all if we didn't capitalize the term Spirit, as in Holy Spirit, but understood these as fruits of the spirit, as in the human spirit.

It depends on the actual point Paul was trying to make. Was he saying that without supernatural aid, we can't love or be kind, etc.? Or was he attempting to contrast Law with Virtue? If so, then the question is, "am I loving you because God commanded it, or because I genuinely want to do so?" Love as a fruit of the spirit, as opposed to a legal obligation, is a whole different thing.