PDA

View Full Version : Hypothetical Scenario



VerticalReality
Oct 11th 2010, 07:11 PM
A boy at the age of 13 loses his parents to a violent crime and is sent to live with his uncle who is a Christian. His uncle teaches the boy and equips him with sound biblical truth and the boy eventually grows into a strong believer in the Lord and teaches the gospel to hundreds of thousands of people seeing lives changed dramatically.

Question:

Did God cause the death of the boy's parents so that the boy would eventually grow into the strong man of God that he was? In a situation like this did God plan for the parents to die a horrible and violent death so that the boy could be used for a greater good?

Fenris
Oct 11th 2010, 07:12 PM
I believe everything that God does is for the greater good, although it may be impossible to understand this with our limited human intellect.

Vhayes
Oct 11th 2010, 07:17 PM
Hi Vertical - good to "see" you again!

I don't think God "caused" the death of the parents as much as He used what was intended for evil for the good.

As I have said before, God knows all things (all that will happen) He just doesn't force all things (that DO happen).

VerticalReality
Oct 11th 2010, 07:18 PM
I believe everything that God does is for the greater good, although it may be impossible to understand this with our limited human intellect.

Certainly everything that God does is good. However, would God cause the violent death in the scenario above in order to work the good in the boy?

VerticalReality
Oct 11th 2010, 07:19 PM
Hi Vertical - good to "see" you again!

I don't think God "caused" the death of the parents as much as He used what was intended for evil for the good.

As I have said before, God knows all things (all that will happen) He just doesn't force all things (that DO happen).

Hello, good to "see" you as well.

Fenris
Oct 11th 2010, 07:20 PM
Certainly everything that God does is good. However, would God cause the violent death in the scenario above in order to work the good in the boy?

I don't pretend to understand God's motives. All we can see is the effect of what He does.

MoreMercy
Oct 11th 2010, 07:21 PM
'All things' work toward the good of those who love/are obedient to Him.


Father bless.

Slug1
Oct 11th 2010, 07:24 PM
Certainly everything that God does is good. However, would God cause the violent death in the scenario above in order to work the good in the boy?Why not? He caused the death of many... even the entire world once short 8 people so the human race could have a new start. He also allowed satan to pester Job only to glorify Himself through Job in the end. I don't see anything wrong with God allowing the death of parents to glorify Himself through their son who is mentored by the uncle.

Br. Barnabas
Oct 11th 2010, 07:27 PM
A boy at the age of 13 loses his parents to a violent crime and is sent to live with his uncle who is a Christian. His uncle teaches the boy and equips him with sound biblical truth and the boy eventually grows into a strong believer in the Lord and teaches the gospel to hundreds of thousands of people seeing lives changed dramatically.

Question:

Did God cause the death of the boy's parents so that the boy would eventually grow into the strong man of God that he was? In a situation like this did God plan for the parents to die a horrible and violent death so that the boy could be used for a greater good?

No God did not cause the death of the parents, however, God can and usually does bring good out of evil. One of my favorite scholars describes God's plans like a GPS direction system. There is a set plan but we can, and I would add often do, go off course and so God reworks the route so that we get to the same place. The example N.T. Wright gives, the scholar referenced above, is that of Israel's exodus. Did God plan for them to spend 40 years wandering in the desert, no, but stuff happened so he made a different route to get them there. Also the plan was for Adam and Eve to live in the garden and not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Once this happened God, reworked the plan and Christ came to redeem us.

Human action and evil affect God's plans because he allows us to have free will. It does not mean that God did not foresee it happening or that it was the most direct route that he had planned for us. It just shows that we live in a fallen world and are fallen people. The world would be great and perfect is everyone always did the will of God and did exactly what he told them to do. The reality is that there is evil in the world, people usually don't follow God's will, and a lot of people, including Christians, either don't listen for God, or don't know how to hear from him. Thus, it seems that the God GPS of life is doing a lot of recalculating routes for us.

Reynolds357
Oct 11th 2010, 07:27 PM
A boy at the age of 13 loses his parents to a violent crime and is sent to live with his uncle who is a Christian. His uncle teaches the boy and equips him with sound biblical truth and the boy eventually grows into a strong believer in the Lord and teaches the gospel to hundreds of thousands of people seeing lives changed dramatically.

Question:

Did God cause the death of the boy's parents so that the boy would eventually grow into the strong man of God that he was? In a situation like this did God plan for the parents to die a horrible and violent death so that the boy could be used for a greater good?

No. God most definitely did not. The thief comes to Steal, kill, and destroy.

Reynolds357
Oct 11th 2010, 07:28 PM
Why not? He caused the death of many... the entire world once even short 8 people so the human race could have a new start. He also allowed satan to pester Job only to glorify Himself through Job in the end. I don't see anything wrong with God allowing the death of parents to glorify Himself through their son who is mentored by the uncle.

There is a huge difference between the word "allow" and the word "cause."

VerticalReality
Oct 11th 2010, 07:28 PM
'All things' work toward the good of those who love/are obedient to Him.


Father bless.

The first question that arises from this passage of scripture . . .

Does God use all things to work together for good for those who love Him or does God cause all things in order to work together for good?

Slug1
Oct 11th 2010, 07:33 PM
There is a huge difference between the word "allow" and the word "cause."So if God "allows" the death of the parents, does this mean He caused it? To me, the result in the end is God's will. God caused Ananias and his wife to die so I don't see how anyone can say He won't or can't cause someone to die for His ultimate will in the end.

VerticalReality
Oct 11th 2010, 07:34 PM
Why not? He caused the death of many... the entire world once even short 8 people so the human race could have a new start.

Okay. Let's change that scenario. Let's say the rest of the world at that time wasn't totally wicked. Let's say that many of those outside of the 8 saved were just as they were. What would you think then?


He also allowed satan to pester Job only to glorify Himself through Job in the end.

Is that the only reason? Do you think, for example, that God would have my Christian wife murdered in order to teach me a greater good?


I don't see anything wrong with God allowing the death of parents to glorify Himself through their son who is mentored by the uncle.

Okay. Let's add to the scenario then with another realistic example. Let's say that the boy has a brother, and this brother reacts to the death of his parents the exact opposite of his brother. Let's say that this boy totally rejects and despises God from that point forward, and eventually goes on to lead countless people away from God through his research in the field science and physics?

Slug1
Oct 11th 2010, 07:36 PM
Okay. Let's change that scenario. Let's say the rest of the world at that time wasn't totally wicked. Let's say that many of those outside of the 8 saved were just as they were. What would you think then?



Is that the only reason? Do you think, for example, that God would have my Christian wife murdered in order to teach me a greater good?



Okay. Let's add to the scenario then with another realistic example. Let's say that the boy has a brother, and this brother reacts to the death of his parents the exact opposite of his brother. Let's say that this boy totally rejects and despises God from that point forward, and eventually goes on to lead countless people away from God through his research in the field science and physics?We can "let's add" this to death and you will be the cause of this threads end :P

MoreMercy
Oct 11th 2010, 07:37 PM
The first question that arises from this passage of scripture . . .

Does God use all things to work together for good for those who love Him or does God cause all things in order to work together for good?

I think sometimes both, and sometimes one or the other.
All depends on if it fits into Fathers will and purpose in His plan of restoration of His fallen creations.


Father bless.

VerticalReality
Oct 11th 2010, 07:39 PM
We can "let's add" this to death and you will be the cause of this threads end :P

I think the addition is quite realistic. Take Charles Darwin, for example. It was tragedy in his life that brought about his questions in God's existence. Ted Turner is a very vocal opponent of God. The reason is because of the tragedy he experienced with his sister. These tragedies did not work a greater good in the life of Darwin. Additionally, at least as of right now, it has not worked a greater good in the life of Ted Turner.

Did God kill Turner's sister?

Reynolds357
Oct 11th 2010, 07:47 PM
So if God "allows" the death of the parents, does this mean He caused it? To me, the result in the end is God's will. God caused Ananias and his wife to die so I don't see how anyone can say He won't or can't cause someone to die for His ultimate will in the end.

When you say God caused it, you are saying that there is nothing the person could have done that would have kept it from happening.
When you say God allowed it, you are saying God gave them free will and the choices of that free will played out yielding the final results. God did not cause Ananias and Saphira to lie to The Holy Spirit. He allowed them to Lie to Him.

notuptome
Oct 11th 2010, 07:54 PM
Is there another reason for your question?

Does God love all men and is it Gods will that all men should be saved? 2 Pet 3:9

Sin is the reason that men die. Our adversary delights in destroying sinful men. Only by Gods mercy are we preserved.

The death of Gods saints is precious in His sight. Ps 116:15 The death of the wicked is not so. Ezek 33:11

Romans 1:21-23 gives the reason for why men do what they do. God owes no one an apology for what He does. God is soverign and merciful toward men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

VerticalReality
Oct 11th 2010, 08:02 PM
Is there another reason for your question?

Another reason for the question aside from what?

Athanasius
Oct 11th 2010, 08:07 PM
I believe God is in the business of sacrificing himself for the 'good' of the many, rather than others (unless it were their choice).

VerticalReality
Oct 12th 2010, 12:07 PM
I ask this question because I am finishing a book right now where the author asserts that God "orchestrated" the deaths of Esther's parents in order for her to do what she ended up doing for the Jews.

Doge
Oct 12th 2010, 03:34 PM
It seems to me you are trying to work out God from a human prospective ie why a and not b why b and not c.
What you can be sure of is that all works of God are good, of works of man on the other hand not so.
So therefore the focus should be on what people do when faced trial and tribulation, as God is known to test people.
Why you may ask since he knows all.

notuptome
Oct 12th 2010, 04:52 PM
I ask this question because I am finishing a book right now where the author asserts that God "orchestrated" the deaths of Esther's parents in order for her to do what she ended up doing for the Jews.
Assuming that his reasoning is true why would that be a problem? God can take something meant by our adversary for evil and use it for His glory. God certainly knew Esthers heart and exactly how she would respond in the given circumstances. Esthers parents obviously did a good job in raising her to know of Jehovah God. They doubtless received their reward in heaven so where is the problem?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

VerticalReality
Oct 12th 2010, 04:58 PM
Assuming that his reasoning is true why would that be a problem? God can take something meant by our adversary for evil and use it for His glory. God certainly knew Esthers heart and exactly how she would respond in the given circumstances. Esthers parents obviously did a good job in raising her to know of Jehovah God. They doubtless received their reward in heaven so where is the problem?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What scripture can we reference that infers that God will arrange the premature death of His people for some other person's grand purpose?

Who can I expect God to kill in order for me to accomplish something greater? Or even better news, when should I expect God to kill me so that some other person can do something cool?

By the way, I think you misunderstood what I stated. I didn't say the author of this book stated that the devil orchestrated the death of Esther's parents and God used it for good. I said the author stated that God orchestrated the death of Esther's parents.

notuptome
Oct 12th 2010, 05:10 PM
What scripture can we reference that infers that God will arrange the premature death of His people for some other person's grand purpose?
The book of Job perhaps.

Who can I expect God to kill in order for me to accomplish something greater? Or even better news, when should I expect God to kill me so that some other person can do something cool?
Are not some questions better left unasked? What do you value above the Lord?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

VerticalReality
Oct 12th 2010, 05:14 PM
The book of Job perhaps.

I don't know where in the book of Job it states that God orchestrated the death of others in order to work out a great purpose in someone else. I do know where it says the devil brought the death of someone, though.


Are not some questions better left unasked? What do you value above the Lord?

Are we not to seek to know the will and ways of God? How are we to know when we should fight the good fight against our enemy or submit to the will of God? What you are proposing is lunacy. What you are proposing suggests that it may be God and not our enemy that is trying to kill us.

What do I value above the Lord? How does that question even make any sense? Where did I suggest that I value something above the Lord?

notuptome
Oct 12th 2010, 05:19 PM
I don't know where in the book of Job it states that God orchestrated the death of others in order to work out a great purpose in someone else. I do know where it says the devil brought the death of someone, though.

God was allowing Job to be tested. It was God Who asked Satan if he had considered Gods servant Job. This led to Jobs children being wiped out.

Are we not to seek to know the will and ways of God? How are we to know when we should fight the good fight against our enemy or submit to the will of God? What you are proposing is lunacy. What you are proposing suggests that we have no way of knowing whether the one trying to kill us is God or our enemy.
Rom 11:33

For the cause of Christ
Roger

VerticalReality
Oct 12th 2010, 05:22 PM
I find it disheartening that Christians today do not know the love of their God better than to suggest he would bring about the death in His own people in order to further someone else. What I also find disheartening is this false sense of humility Christians are displaying when they talk about this subject. It doesn't make you humble to say things like, "Who can know the unsearchable will of God," when God wants us to know His will, and He wants us to understand His character as opposed to our enemy. He wants us to understand who it is that brings destruction our way. He wants us to understand what causes and brings about death in our lives. We have an adversary, and God is not it.

VerticalReality
Oct 12th 2010, 05:25 PM
God was allowing Job to be tested. It was God Who asked Satan if he had considered Gods servant Job. This led to Jobs children being wiped out.

The subject of this thread is not whether or not God will allow testing.


Rom 11:33

See my other post. This scripture is not applicable to this subject, nor does it make one humble when declaring so. Only ignorant to our enemy's tactics.

notuptome
Oct 12th 2010, 05:40 PM
The subject of this thread is not whether or not God will allow testing.
Ezek 33:11 The Lord has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. The Lord has pleasure in the death of His saints. Ps 116:15 Dying should not be a fearful matter for the Christian.

See my other post. This scripture is not applicable to this subject, nor does it make one humble when declaring so. Only ignorant to our enemies tactics.
Would you not gladly lay down your life if it meant that another would come to know Christ as Saviour? Paul said he could wish himself accursed if his brethren Israel would come to Christ. Rom 9:1-3 What do we make of those who were martyred for Christ? Overcome by the enemy or surrendered to the glory of God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

VerticalReality
Oct 12th 2010, 05:57 PM
Ezek 33:11 The Lord has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. The Lord has pleasure in the death of His saints. Ps 116:15 Dying should not be a fearful matter for the Christian.

Again, how does this apply? What you are referencing does not at all state that God causes the death of His people.


Would you not gladly lay down your life if it meant that another would come to know Christ as Saviour?

If I did would that mean that God caused my death?


Rom 9:1-3 What do we make of those who were martyred for Christ? Overcome by the enemy or surrendered to the glory of God?

How about both? Surrendered to God in the fact that they were willing to give their life for the gospel, and brought to a point of death because the enemy was filling and inspiring the murderers who took their lives.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Oct 12th 2010, 06:58 PM
I think the addition is quite realistic. Take Charles Darwin, for example. It was tragedy in his life that brought about his questions in God's existence. Ted Turner is a very vocal opponent of God. The reason is because of the tragedy he experienced with his sister. These tragedies did not work a greater good in the life of Darwin. Additionally, at least as of right now, it has not worked a greater good in the life of Ted Turner.

Did God kill Turner's sister?

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." -Romans 8:28

Allowed. Not caused. God's not the roaring lion.

VerticalReality
Oct 12th 2010, 08:14 PM
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." -Romans 8:28

Allowed. Not caused. God's not the roaring lion.

Agree to a point. However, one question. Does God have to allow the death of all people or do many people partake in the process of their death without God's assistance?

In other words, can someone actively and willingly participate in their destruction without God saying, "Yes, I will allow this to happen."?

PneumaPsucheSoma
Oct 12th 2010, 09:19 PM
Agree to a point. However, one question. Does God have to allow the death of all people or do many people partake in the process of their death without God's assistance?

In other words, can someone actively and willingly participate in their destruction without God saying, "Yes, I will allow this to happen."?

Yes. The "allow" was simply a semantic neutral contrasted to "cause". There needn't be initiating or intervening individual works from/by God. Man is in a position of delegated dominion authority that has been usurped and subrogated.

Death came with sin (not the resulting acts of sin: sins). This can ultimately be quite a deep and divergent rabbit hole.