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ClayInHisHands
Oct 25th 2010, 02:23 AM
This could deal with any decision, but I'm going to use this as the example.
When I am faced with the temptation to look at a woman....is it not my choice to take that thought captive and make it obedient to Christ. I pray for the strength to overcome this temptation but what if keeps pushing in my mind and nesting....who's making that decision? I am choosing to let the temptation to lust happen and advance...right? God's grace and a way of escape to overcome the temptation has been made available....now it's up to me to make the choice to turn away from it or not. And if I do resist the temptation, I don't boast and take credit for it, but give God Glory for strengthening me to do it? How do you reconcile this in your mind?
If I need to be more patient, God's not just going to snap His fingers and give me patience. He's going to allow opportunities for me to be patient, right? Use situations for me to grow in patience.
So when I, over time become more patient and have more 'self' control, then isn't that counted toward me as being obedient?
I've been pondering the imputing of righteousness here recently and I've wondered, because I've always believed when God looks at us He sees the Blood of Christ and His righteousness. But how can that be when at times I'm choosing(deliberately) to not resist temptations in my life sometimes.
Wouldn't that make there a difference between imputed righteousness and just plain being obedient?

Wouldn’t being imputed or having Christ’s righteousness transferred to me make it hard to accept the concept that while I make decisions sometimes to fulfill the flesh when tempted that I can fall into the trap of thinking that “I’m okay”, “I struggle”, “I’m just human”, “God knows I’m not perfect”? All the while God just looks at me and can’t really see my SIN because when He looks upon me He only sees the blood of Christ; the righteousness of Christ. How can we reconcile that obedience is integral in our walk if the aforementioned quotations I made are used frequently by the vast majority of Christians?

Why would Jesus say those who are my disciples will follow my commands if I can’t really follow them - at least consistently? Why would Paul repeat over and over that those who practice lawlessness such as the sins of sexual immorality, malice, etc. and know full well that we would struggle and do these things. Did Paul struggle with these things? I guess that depends on your understanding of Romans 7. Why would he describe himself to the church in Romans as the Chief Sinner and not in any of his other letters. Why wouldn’t Peter touch on these struggles within himself too?

Why not James and John also? They speak of working out our Salvation and basically say “if you love the Lord Jesus you will show it in your actions and you will strive to be obedient and utterly hate SIN. Because after all, God hates SIN no matter what and doesn’t condone it in any shape or form. Meaning when He sees me sin, can I really think that He simply shrugs His shoulders and says, come on Joel, get back up and move forward, it‘s alright I don‘t really see your sin, I see the blood of My Son and His righteousness has been transferred to you so I see you as clean. I know that we don’t earn our Salvation through works, and we don’t make ourselves righteous by our works either.

Another example, and I know this is an extreme but bare with me….Adolf Hitler said that Jesus Christ was his Lord and Savior…Are we to believe that because Hitler believed upon the name of Jesus and let’s say he accepted him when he was a young teen, that he was imputed with Christ’s Righteousness and passed onto Glory or because he was later disobedient obviously and therefore what was transferred was taken away? I know that one is a stretch, but there are many people who accept Christ at a young age and later in their adult life it’s evident that there is no fruit and they live very immoral lifestyles(practicing lawlessness). If that’s the case what was the determining factor when Jesus tells them to depart from Him because of their iniquity? How does He not know them or say that He never knew them?
 
 
 
In Christ’s Love

Beautiful Loser
Oct 25th 2010, 03:32 PM
This could deal with any decision, but I'm going to use this as the example.
When I am faced with the temptation to look at a woman....is it not my choice to take that thought captive and make it obedient to Christ. I pray for the strength to overcome this temptation but what if keeps pushing in my mind and nesting....who's making that decision? I am choosing to let the temptation to lust happen and advance...right? God's grace and a way of escape to overcome the temptation has been made available....now it's up to me to make the choice to turn away from it or not. And if I do resist the temptation, I don't boast and take credit for it, but give God Glory for strengthening me to do it? How do you reconcile this in your mind?
If I need to be more patient, God's not just going to snap His fingers and give me patience. He's going to allow opportunities for me to be patient, right? Use situations for me to grow in patience.
So when I, over time become more patient and have more 'self' control, then isn't that counted toward me as being obedient?
I've been pondering the imputing of righteousness here recently and I've wondered, because I've always believed when God looks at us He sees the Blood of Christ and His righteousness. But how can that be when at times I'm choosing(deliberately) to not resist temptations in my life sometimes.
Wouldn't that make there a difference between imputed righteousness and just plain being obedient?

Let's start with two verses that are always key for me and my understanding:

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; ... 2 Cor 4:7

... indeed we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; ... 2 Cor 1:9

The reason why we have our treasure (Spirit) in bodies of death is so that there is no doubt where our salvation is from. Our self is a constant reminder to trust in God and not in ourselves.

The idea of choice that you are struggling with is talked about in Rom chapter 8.

... for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:13

And a few chapters later:

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. Rom 12:1

And:

... but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. 1 Cor 9:27

You don't choose in the sense of I'll follow good or I'll follow evil.

If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. Rom 8:10

Your spirit will fight against your flesh, because it is no longer of the flesh, but of the Spirit... and the Spirit cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13); its one directional unable to direct to sin, but only good.

Sanctification, that ongoing walk with God, being constantly set apart for God, is about God showing you what He has given you (1 Thess 5:23 Heb 2:11). If you remember when Paul was talking about the gifts of the Spirit and how each person was to limit themselves according to the measure each had been given (Rom 12:3-8). So too are the other aspects of our lives. You may have been given a great measure when it comes to self control and anger, others have not. You may have been given no measure when it comes to coveting physical items, while others have. Your daily walk in Christ is God showing you what He has done (your triumphs) and showing you its all Him and His grace is sufficient (your defeats 2 Cor 12:9).

So you do not choose to either good or evil. But using what the Spirit has given you beat down your flesh. What gets beaten down is by grace, as it is not from yourself, but the Spirit; its the Spirit showing you His work in your life. And when you fail it is God allowing evil to triumph to remind you Jesus triumphed and it is not of yourself. Both are to the glory of God.


How can we reconcile that obedience is integral in our walk if the aforementioned quotations I made are used frequently by the vast majority of Christians?



Why would Jesus say those who are my disciples will follow my commands if I can’t really follow them - at least consistently?



To go along with what I wrote above, you will not be obedient until our renewed spirit is conjoined with our promised bodies of the resurrection. Remember it isn't just that we must be obedient, but that we must be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect (Matt 5:48).

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. Is that a statement saying God's judgment relies upon how you judge? Or is it a reflection that, those who have faith will not judge. In other words if one judges it shows he does not have faith, while not judging shows there is faith (Jam 2:18). The tree is known by its fruit (Luke 6:43-45). And this is not in full yet, as we live in bodies of death, incapable of doing good (Rom 7:18).

Your actions are a shadow of what is to come because they are done in the flesh, but arise from the Spirit. You only point to them showing what God is doing (from inside) never what you are doing... because if you do, you point at death. They are a shadow of what is to come, a promise of the Spirit of what you will have, but do not yet have.

It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself. 2 Tim 2:11-13

I like this statement. It shows how faith is our anchor and how God is our anchor. If we have faith we will endure, if we do not have faith we will deny Him. But if we our faithless He will not deny Himself (those of His Spirit). The fruit will reflect the tree, but because the tree (Spirit) is being reflected through flesh (ourselves) it will not be faithful; its just a mere shadow of what is inside of us. But God isn't faithful because of these actions, but because of Himself.




Another example, and I know this is an extreme but bare with me….Adolf Hitler said that Jesus Christ was his Lord and Savior…Are we to believe that because Hitler believed upon the name of Jesus and let’s say he accepted him when he was a young teen, that he was imputed with Christ’s Righteousness and passed onto Glory or because he was later disobedient obviously and therefore what was transferred was taken away? I know that one is a stretch, but there are many people who accept Christ at a young age and later in their adult life it’s evident that there is no fruit and they live very immoral lifestyles(practicing lawlessness). If that’s the case what was the determining factor when Jesus tells them to depart from Him because of their iniquity? How does He not know them or say that He never knew them?


Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ; 2 Per 1:1

Is the faith of the same type as Peters? It depends where it comes from. If it comes from God, it will reflect God. God knows you because God knows Himself.

If your faith stems from yourself, it will reflect yourself. And that type of faith is no different than any other faith in a different religion as it is you doing things for favor with God. Its a different faith entirely, it just uses the same nomenclature.

I like to differentiate them as Christianity versus Christendom (authors like Michael Brown use this language as well). One is Christ according to God the other is Christ according to the world.

John D
Oct 25th 2010, 04:40 PM
Righteousness comes down to being declared righteous by somebody who has the power to do so. In our case God is the Judge giving the verdict. We are found guilty and sentence to death, Somebody did die, the price was paid. We are therefore found righteous before God because of the execution of Jesus Christ. The proof that God accepted the death of Jesus as enough is the fact that He raised Him from the dead!
While we are still in this earthly body, sin will be our companion till our dying day. We must rule over our fleshly desires and viles. There is forgiveness when we fail - thank God for that!

Pillar
Oct 25th 2010, 06:29 PM
Sexual sins are in a category of their own according to Paul.

1 Cor 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.


But you were talking about just looking at women, not touching them. Looking at clothed women who are not your wife, or nude women who are not your wife?

BroRog
Oct 25th 2010, 06:53 PM
I've been pondering the imputing of righteousness here recently and I've wondered, because I've always believed when God looks at us He sees the Blood of Christ and His righteousness. But how can that be when at times I'm choosing(deliberately) to not resist temptations in my life sometimes.
Wouldn't that make there a difference between imputed righteousness and just plain being obedient?Some Christians (Catholics I think) teach that Christ's moral purity is somehow transfered or credited to the believer such that when God saves us, he is looking at Christ's righteousness not the believer's moral condition. I don't think this is the Biblical view. These theologians seem to find it incredulous that God would simply have mercy on a sinner and save him on THAT basis. The concern of these theologians seems to be the righteous judgment of God, and seek to preserve God's justice in their theory that God must be judging me, but giving me credit for what Christ did. For them, salvation is a matter of justice and that the saved were aquitted on some mystical technical grounds. However, the Biblical view, as I read it, is that our salvation isn't a matter of justice but a matter of mercy and forgiveness.

Paul explains this in terms of a declaration of "not to be punished", which he labels as "dikaiosune" the state of being "in the right". If we picture the courtroom scene, rather than acquitting the accused, the judge convicts the accused. But during the sentencing phase, the judge, due to mitigating circumstances, declares the defendant, "not to be punished." The good news is that God will declare those who have faith in Jesus "not to be punished" in view of their faith. Thus, what is imputed to us is not "moral purity" but "not to be punished."

You are right. The other interpretation makes no sense out of our experience.

notuptome
Oct 25th 2010, 07:09 PM
2 Cor 5:21 God has made Christ Who knew no sin to be sin in our place that we who know no righteousness might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

The vicarious atonement of Christ.

Resisting temptation is not about salvation but about sanctification.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Doge
Oct 25th 2010, 11:26 PM
I think is a process of growth .. you cant just say i blelieve and thats the end of it go on a rampage or do what you like..you have to grow in faith .. by growing in faith you give more control to God and less to you.. you get empowered.
Not being able to do what you like is not works because you can only give yourself freely... your actions (resisting temptation .. seeking him ect) is a gesture reaching out to God he does the actual grabbing and lifting.
This chapter has a good parable .. hopefully you're one of those that turns the pound into 10 .. Hitler obviously wrapped it in a napkin .

Luke 19: (King James Version)

1 And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

MoreMercy
Oct 26th 2010, 12:22 AM
Howdy ClayInHisHands
Five-star thread !

My opinion: We do not have imputed righteousness UNTIL that great day of God's judgement.... now please, before your head starts spinning read my explanation first, please.

If/when I am born from above/born again by my repentance of my old life and acceptance of Christ work on my behalf, then I am a new creature but still an infant-new creature and in dire continuous need of 'His' light, truth, food and drink to mature into His likeness.

If my new creature's stomach will not accept/digest/agree with His light, truth, food and drink then I am reprobate and in need of repentance again, which would shame the blood of Christ, Father's sacrifice for my justification to allow me eternal fellowship with Him.

(note) Not saying that if I still sin that I will shame the blood of Christ, but saying that if still sin and think that I do not sin, then I will shame the blood of Christ, Father's sacrifice for my justification to allow me eternal fellowship with Him.
IE: A goat, leading others astray.

If I sin after becoming a new creature by Christ work, then I need to confess/know and admit that I sinned and know too that if I continue in that sin I will have fallen away/become reprobate/became a goat.
IE: A sheep, easily lead astray.

Hence my opinion that we do not have imputed righteousness, UNTIL that great day of God's judgement.
We will be separated on that great day: sheep on one side, goats on the other side on that great day.
The sheep will be imputed with righteousness and judged for rewards for their works on that great day.
The goats will be imputed with righteous-judgement/wrath and rewarded justly for their works on that great day.

Now those who had no chance to feed or drink of Him before that great day, I believe will be judged by His mercy alone.


Father bless.

christseeker
Oct 26th 2010, 01:57 AM
Some Christians (Catholics I think) teach that Christ's moral purity is somehow transfered or credited to the believer such that when God saves us, he is looking at Christ's righteousness not the believer's moral condition. I don't think this is the Biblical view. These theologians seem to find it incredulous that God would simply have mercy on a sinner and save him on THAT basis. The concern of these theologians seems to be the righteous judgment of God, and seek to preserve God's justice in their theory that God must be judging me, but giving me credit for what Christ did. For them, salvation is a matter of justice and that the saved were aquitted on some mystical technical grounds. However, the Biblical view, as I read it, is that our salvation isn't a matter of justice but a matter of mercy and forgiveness.


I was just looking that up in relation to Catholicism and here is wiki's take on it:


"The Catholic idea maintains that the formal cause of justification does not consist in an exterior imputation of the justice of Christ, but in a real, interior sanctification effected by grace, which abounds in the soul and makes it permanently holy before God. Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him or her the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he or she is formally justified and made holy by his or her own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis)." Although internal and proper to the one justified, this justice and holiness are still understood as a gift of grace through the Holy Spirit rather than something earned or acquired independently of God's salvific work. Put starkly, the Roman Catholic Church rejects the teaching of imputed righteousness as being a present reality. This is at the very center of the disagreements between the Roman Catholic Church and Lutherans, and remains the primary sticking point to a unification of these traditions to this day.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_righteousness#Roman_Catholic_view)

Butch5
Oct 26th 2010, 02:02 PM
This could deal with any decision, but I'm going to use this as the example.
When I am faced with the temptation to look at a woman....is it not my choice to take that thought captive and make it obedient to Christ. I pray for the strength to overcome this temptation but what if keeps pushing in my mind and nesting....who's making that decision? I am choosing to let the temptation to lust happen and advance...right? God's grace and a way of escape to overcome the temptation has been made available....now it's up to me to make the choice to turn away from it or not. And if I do resist the temptation, I don't boast and take credit for it, but give God Glory for strengthening me to do it? How do you reconcile this in your mind?
If I need to be more patient, God's not just going to snap His fingers and give me patience. He's going to allow opportunities for me to be patient, right? Use situations for me to grow in patience.
So when I, over time become more patient and have more 'self' control, then isn't that counted toward me as being obedient?
I've been pondering the imputing of righteousness here recently and I've wondered, because I've always believed when God looks at us He sees the Blood of Christ and His righteousness. But how can that be when at times I'm choosing(deliberately) to not resist temptations in my life sometimes.
Wouldn't that make there a difference between imputed righteousness and just plain being obedient?

Wouldn’t being imputed or having Christ’s righteousness transferred to me make it hard to accept the concept that while I make decisions sometimes to fulfill the flesh when tempted that I can fall into the trap of thinking that “I’m okay”, “I struggle”, “I’m just human”, “God knows I’m not perfect”? All the while God just looks at me and can’t really see my SIN because when He looks upon me He only sees the blood of Christ; the righteousness of Christ. How can we reconcile that obedience is integral in our walk if the aforementioned quotations I made are used frequently by the vast majority of Christians?

Why would Jesus say those who are my disciples will follow my commands if I can’t really follow them - at least consistently? Why would Paul repeat over and over that those who practice lawlessness such as the sins of sexual immorality, malice, etc. and know full well that we would struggle and do these things. Did Paul struggle with these things? I guess that depends on your understanding of Romans 7. Why would he describe himself to the church in Romans as the Chief Sinner and not in any of his other letters. Why wouldn’t Peter touch on these struggles within himself too?

Why not James and John also? They speak of working out our Salvation and basically say “if you love the Lord Jesus you will show it in your actions and you will strive to be obedient and utterly hate SIN. Because after all, God hates SIN no matter what and doesn’t condone it in any shape or form. Meaning when He sees me sin, can I really think that He simply shrugs His shoulders and says, come on Joel, get back up and move forward, it‘s alright I don‘t really see your sin, I see the blood of My Son and His righteousness has been transferred to you so I see you as clean. I know that we don’t earn our Salvation through works, and we don’t make ourselves righteous by our works either.

Another example, and I know this is an extreme but bare with me….Adolf Hitler said that Jesus Christ was his Lord and Savior…Are we to believe that because Hitler believed upon the name of Jesus and let’s say he accepted him when he was a young teen, that he was imputed with Christ’s Righteousness and passed onto Glory or because he was later disobedient obviously and therefore what was transferred was taken away? I know that one is a stretch, but there are many people who accept Christ at a young age and later in their adult life it’s evident that there is no fruit and they live very immoral lifestyles(practicing lawlessness). If that’s the case what was the determining factor when Jesus tells them to depart from Him because of their iniquity? How does He not know them or say that He never knew them?
 
 
 
In Christ’s Love

Hi Clay,

You've made some excellent points. While righteousness is imputed to us, it is not Christ's righteousness that is imputed to us. We are imputed (counted, credited, considered) righteous by God based on what we do. If we are obedient to God He counts that toward us a being righteous. James tells us that the Scripture, 'Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness', was fulfilled when Abraham "Obeyed" God. So, it was Abraham's actions that were the basis for God's counting him righteous. Scripture doesn't teach that Christ's righteousness is imputed to believers, that idea came from the reformers understanding of the atonement and their introduction of the Penal model of it.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 03:08 PM
Hi Clay,

You've made some excellent points. While righteousness is imputed to us, it is not Christ's righteousness that is imputed to us. We are imputed (counted, credited, considered) righteous by God based on what we do. If we are obedient to God He counts that toward us a being righteous. James tells us that the Scripture, 'Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness', was fulfilled when Abraham "Obeyed" God. So, it was Abraham's actions that were the basis for God's counting him righteous. Scripture doesn't teach that Christ's righteousness is imputed to believers, that idea came from the reformers understanding of the atonement and their introduction of the Penal model of it.
2 Cor 5:21 clearly states that you are wrong. We are made the righteousness of God in Christ. Obedience has nothing to do with God making us righteous in Christ, save the obedience to heed the gospel.

I'm certain you have heard of vicarious atonement.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Oct 26th 2010, 03:26 PM
I was just looking that up in relation to Catholicism and here is wiki's take on it:



Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_righteousness#Roman_Catholic_view)Suprisin g to me is the fact that I am in agreement with the Catholics on this, if I understand their position. But not so surprising that such a theology is submersed and drowns in a sea of contradictory rites, rituals, paganism, superstitions, and darkness found in the Catholic churches. I have come to expect the contradiction between what a person believes and what he actually does.

ClayInHisHands
Oct 26th 2010, 10:38 PM
Thanks to everyone for their replies. Beautiful Loser I thank you for all the verses you posted too.

After reading and studying some more I believe that when Jesus was righteous through and through.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2 Corinthians 6:1-7
1 We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all [things] approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;

6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,


I believe the Word teaches that if we believe in Jesus Christ, God declares us righteous because of Him(Jesus). I do not think that God sees us as righteous in our physical lives the way Jesus lived His life. We are not righteous the way Jesus was because Jesus was perfect and never sinned. Abraham was credited with righteousness, I'm sure everyone would agree that Abraham was not all of the sudden on the same level of righteousness of Jesus. I mean when I‘m forgiven He throws my sin into the sea of forgetfulness, but if I sin again, it’s not automatically forgiven where I can just simply shrug it off and claim the blood and say “I’m forgiven” or “God sees Jesus on me when I sin from time to time” and then pretend it didn’t just happen. But on the day of Judgment He will judge us guilty and deserving of death but those who have believed upon the name of Jesus and followed His commands(not works)...I mean they REALLY LIVED for Jesus.....they will have their sentence revoked . They will inherit eternal life and then be the likeness of Christ because we believed...and belief is reflected in our obedience.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2010, 11:12 PM
2 Cor 5:21 clearly states that you are wrong. We are made the righteousness of God in Christ. Obedience has nothing to do with God making us righteous in Christ, save the obedience to heed the gospel.

I'm certain you have heard of vicarious atonement.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I guess you need to erase James chapter two also.

The passage you qutoed "Does Not" say that Christ's righteousness is imputedto believers.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 11:28 PM
I guess you need to erase James chapter two also.

The passage you qutoed "Does Not" say that Christ's righteousness is imputedto believers.
We are made righteous by what Christ did not what we do. James knew and believed that.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
Oct 26th 2010, 11:32 PM
Thanks to everyone for their replies. Beautiful Loser I thank you for all the verses you posted too.

After reading and studying some more I believe that when Jesus was righteous through and through.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2 Corinthians 6:1-7
1 We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all [things] approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;

6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,


I believe the Word teaches that if we believe in Jesus Christ, God declares us righteous because of Him(Jesus). I do not think that God sees us as righteous in our physical lives the way Jesus lived His life. We are not righteous the way Jesus was because Jesus was perfect and never sinned. Abraham was credited with righteousness, I'm sure everyone would agree that Abraham was not all of the sudden on the same level of righteousness of Jesus. I mean when I‘m forgiven He throws my sin into the sea of forgetfulness, but if I sin again, it’s not automatically forgiven where I can just simply shrug it off and claim the blood and say “I’m forgiven” or “God sees Jesus on me when I sin from time to time” and then pretend it didn’t just happen. But on the day of Judgment He will judge us guilty and deserving of death but those who have believed upon the name of Jesus and followed His commands(not works)...I mean they REALLY LIVED for Jesus.....they will have their sentence revoked . They will inherit eternal life and then be the likeness of Christ because we believed...and belief is reflected in our obedience.

Hi Clay,

It seems you understand it correctly, except it seems you are afraid to say works. It was Abraham's obedience (Works) that God counted as righteousness. You are correct Abraham was not actually righteous, neither are we. We are all guilty of the sins we commit, however, God has promised to acquit those who will place their faith in Jesus and be obedient to Him. As has been pointed out in other threads there are numerous passages of Scripture that state the one who does not obey will not see live, therefore obedience is absolutely necessary in order to see life. James tells how faith and works (obedience) work together to create a faith that is of saving quality.

James 2:20-24 ( KJV )
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

In this passage James is referring to Genesis 22,

Genesis 22:11-18 ( KJV )
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

God swore an oath to Abraham because Abraham "Obeyed" God. The promises that all Christians have are the promises made to Abraham and the God swore the oath because Abraham obeyed God. Notice above I highlighted the promises that God made to Abraham, God makes the same promise to Isaac, and look at the reason He gives for doing it.


Genesis 26:1-5 ( KJV )
And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The promise to Isaac is based on the obedience of Abraham. Once Abraham believed and obeyed God and God swore the oath, nothing could change that. God swore an oath and it is certain He will perform it, but He swore it based on Abraham's obedience.

Servant89
Oct 26th 2010, 11:40 PM
Oh please!!!!

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:9 … for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.How do we measure the righteousness of God? It is inputed on us though faith in his Son. We that believe, have his righteousness. Actually, we shall have that name written on us ...

Now notice we will have a name written on us... and that name is: the name of God = name of the city of God which is Jerusalem = his new name

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

And what name in the Bible is the name of God and at the same time the name of the city of God? It just so happens that the only name given to the city Jerusalem that is also given to Jesus is THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

We do not measure up our righteousness, it is his righteousness which is applied to us. His righteousness can not be measured, it is infinite.

The Bible is about the goodness of God, not about the goodness of man. The self-righteous love to talk about the goodness of man. Not us.

Shalom

Butch5
Oct 27th 2010, 12:07 AM
Oh please!!!!

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:9 … for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.How do we measure the righteousness of God? It is inputed on us though faith in his Son. We that believe, have his righteousness. Actually, we shall have that name written on us ...

Now notice we will have a name written on us... and that name is: the name of God = name of the city of God which is Jerusalem = his new name

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

And what name in the Bible is the name of God and at the same time the name of the city of God? It just so happens that the only name given to the city Jerusalem that is also given to Jesus is THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

We do not measure up our righteousness, it is his righteousness which is applied to us. His righteousness can not be measured, it is infinite.

The Bible is about the goodness of God, not about the goodness of man. The self-righteous love to talk about the goodness of man. Not us.

Shalom

No my friend it is not His righteousness that is applied to us. None of the verses you posted say any such thing. It also in not our righteousness, it righteousness that God imputes to the believer based on the believers first placing faith in Christ and following with obedience. If you look at the passages you quoted all of the NT passages are contrasting faith with the Law of Moses, not faith with obedience. The passage from Jeremiah is not saying that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, it says He is our righteousness, first of all Jeremiah was speaking of Israel, secondly, Christ is their righteousness, it was through His obedience that Salvation was made possible, this passage does not say His righteousness is imputed to the believer.

You quoted a very that say the opposite of what you are saying,

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

whose faith is counted for righteousness? It doesn't say Christ's faith it says the one who believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, that is the believer.

ClayInHisHands
Oct 27th 2010, 11:22 AM
Hi Clay,

except it seems you are afraid to say works.



Not afraid, just meant that our works don't earn our Salvation. I wholeheartedly agree and believe that our works prove our faith. I'm a stay at home Dad. We live in a big city 14 hours away from any family and friends, the church we went to down here was a psyhco babble church and it had me testing everything under the moon and I have let it discourage me for the last 2 years. We only have one vehicle. When 2 of my kids are at school and my wife is at work she obviously has the vehicle. So me and my 3 year old boy are at home. We have a 5 week old baby. Now when my wife will go back to work I will be at home with the baby and my 3 three year old. By no means am I complaining about being home, far from it. My point is, I don't have adult contact very much. I feel as if I'm sitting here looking up stuff on the computer all the time that's got me twisting and turning and pondering things I've never pondered before. Some have been for good and opened my eyes. Alot has been bad and as I said, it has discouraged me. Even things on this board have made me question things. These things have made me start questioning my Salvation, and questioning if I'm not producing fruit the way I'm supposed to so of course then, I must be in trouble and so forth. I feel like I'm the evil and lazy slave in the parable of the talents. I'm afraid of God and fear what He could do, but I don't love Him enough because I'm not going to church or even more so, having any fellowship with other Christian men and serving in some compacity.

It's a dangerous time in my mind right now. And I am praying for God to reveal His truth in everything. I find myself quite often saying "have I believed in lies all my life and then been corrected and in other cases feel stuck like I can't figure out what the Spirit is saying to me." What if I'm just going through the motions and don't even know it? Or worse yet, what if I do know it and I'm not really doing anything about it or feel cornered like I don't know how to do anything about it.

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 12:17 PM
whose faith is counted for righteousness? It doesn't say Christ's faith it says the one who believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, that is the believer.
Good question if you arrive at the correct answer. Where does faith come from? Does it come from man? Jer 17:9 Does faith come from God? Rom 10:17 Who was the One Who was faithful? Has any apart from God's Anointed ever been faithful? Who beleived God other than Christ?

The only thing man can be obedient to is sin. In Christ by grace through faith man is made faithful and obedience follows. Eph 2:10

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Servant89
Oct 27th 2010, 01:21 PM
No my friend it is not His righteousness that is applied to us. None of the verses you posted say any such thing. It also in not our righteousness, it righteousness that God imputes to the believer based on the believers first placing faith in Christ and following with obedience. If you look at the passages you quoted all of the NT passages are contrasting faith with the Law of Moses, not faith with obedience. The passage from Jeremiah is not saying that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, it says He is our righteousness, first of all Jeremiah was speaking of Israel, secondly, Christ is their righteousness, it was through His obedience that Salvation was made possible, this passage does not say His righteousness is imputed to the believer.

You quoted a very that say the opposite of what you are saying,

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

whose faith is counted for righteousness? It doesn't say Christ's faith it says the one who believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, that is the believer.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The Bible is not about the goodness of man, it is about the goodness of God. I want to be found not with my own righteousness which is of the law, but with that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. How about you? Do you want to be found with your own righteousness? Haven't you read? Israel blew it in that department.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Shalom

Butch5
Oct 27th 2010, 02:25 PM
Good question if you arrive at the correct answer. Where does faith come from? Does it come from man? Jer 17:9 Does faith come from God? Rom 10:17 Who was the One Who was faithful? Has any apart from God's Anointed ever been faithful? Who beleived God other than Christ?

The only thing man can be obedient to is sin. In Christ by grace through faith man is made faithful and obedience follows. Eph 2:10

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Where faith comes from is not the issue, the issue is whose faith was counted as righteousness? The Scriptures are clear, it was Abraham's faith, it was not Christ's faith imputed to Abraham, it was Abraham's faith. If you read the passage that both Paul and James are referring to you can easily see that both belief and obedience are present in Abraham. Both Paul and James quote the same passage, one proving the necessity of belief the other proving the necessity of obedience. I don't think it is a coincidence that they both quoted the same passage. God makes Himself absolutely clear when He says 'Because Abraham obeyed my voice.' You have the possibility of being saved today because Abraham "Obeyed" God's voice.

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 02:33 PM
Where faith comes from is not the issue, the issue is whose faith was counted as righteousness?
It's an essential issue. Good water cannot come from a bitter well.

The Scriptures are clear, it was Abraham's faith, it was not Christ's faith imputed to Abraham, it was Abraham's faith. If you read the passage that both Paul and James are referring to you can easily see that both belief and obedience are present in Abraham. Both Paul and James quote the same passage, one proving the necessity of belief the other proving the necessity of obedience. I don't think it is a coincidence that they both quoted the same passage. God makes Himself absolutely clear when He says 'Because Abraham obeyed my voice.' You have the possibility of being saved today because Abraham "Obeyed" God's voice.
If and when we obey God's voice it is because His Spirit is within us not because of our efforts. We can do no good thing without the Spirit of God working through us. Was Abram obeying God when he went into Hagar and begat Ishmael?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
Oct 27th 2010, 02:37 PM
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The Bible is not about the goodness of man, it is about the goodness of God. I want to be found not with my own righteousness which is of the law, but with that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. How about you? Do you want to be found with your own righteousness? Haven't you read? Israel blew it in that department.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Shalom

Yes, righteousness is imputed to the believe, however, it is not Christ's righteous acts that are attributed to the believer, it is their obedience to the commands of God. Did you read the passage from Genesis 22, God makes it clear, the promised messiah came through Abraham because Abraham, "Obeyed" God's voice. God tells this to Isaac in chapter 26.

Genesis 26:1-5 ( KJV )
And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

God makes it clear here that He will fulfill the promise He made to Abraham because Abraham obeyed his commands. If you look at Genesis, the promises start out as just that promises, however, when Abraham is obedient to the point of Isaac's death God then swears an oath to Abraham, it is no longer just a promise but now it is an oath, there is nothing that can change it at this point, God will perform the oath. So, it is clear that the promise becomes an oath upon Ab raham's obedience to God's commands.

When Paul speaks of his own righteousness he says it is of the Law, he means to attempt to gain salvation by keeping the Law is to attempt to obtain salvation through one's own righteousness. That is not possible, the only way one can have righteousness imputed to them is by God. No one is righteous, even if righteousness is imputed to us that does not mean we are righteous, it means we're considered righteous, we are acquitted of our sins. We have committed those sins so we cannot be truly righteous, however God counts of not guilty because we have placed our faith in Christ and follow him in obedience.

Butch5
Oct 27th 2010, 02:43 PM
It's an essential issue. Good water cannot come from a bitter well.

No, it is not essential to the issue. The issue is the righteousness that is imputed to the believer.


If and when we obey God's voice it is because His Spirit is within us not because of our efforts. We can do no good thing without the Spirit of God working through us. Was Abram obeying God when he went into Hagar and begat Ishmael?

That is simply not correct. We can do nothing good??? Really? Can you supply Scripture for this? These reformed statements get repeated over and over and over without and Scriptural support. So many times a verse is taken out of context and used to support a reformed idea when in reality the verse does not say what the poster is claiming.

Let me ask you a question, does the Spirit of God dwell in wicked men?

Servant89
Oct 27th 2010, 02:45 PM
When Paul speaks of his own righteousness he says it is of the Law, he means to attempt to gain salvation by keeping the Law is to attempt to obtain salvation through one's own righteousness. That is not possible, the only way one can have righteousness imputed to them is by God. No one is righteous, even if righteousness is imputed to us that does not mean we are righteous, it means we're considered righteous, we are acquitted of our sins. We have committed those sins so we cannot be truly righteous, however God counts of not guilty because we have placed our faith in Christ and follow him in obedience.

We agree. You just don't know it.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

We have been inputted with righteousness (and that means my own resume, which stinks, is erased from God's point of view, and now I have the righteousness of Jesus Christ).

Ps 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

That is the only way we can be holy and blameless before Him, it is because of the blood of the Lamb, not because we are righteous on our own merit.

Shalom

Butch5
Oct 27th 2010, 03:24 PM
We agree. You just don't know it.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

We have been inputted with righteousness (and that means my own resume, which stinks, is erased from God's point of view, and now I have the righteousness of Jesus Christ).

Ps 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

That is the only way we can be holy and blameless before Him, it is because of the blood of the Lamb, not because we are righteous on our own merit.

Shalom

No, we don't agree, it is not the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to the believer. Righteousness is imputed to the believe by God, based on the faith of the believer. The Greek word for righteous means to acquit, find not guilty. The believer is found not guilty based on placing his faith in Christ. That is the righteousness which is from God that Paul speaks of, he is not saying that when one places faith in Christ that God takes the righteous acts of Christ and imputes (credits) those acts to the believer. We are guilty fo the sins we commit, however, if one places faith in Christ God has promised to acquit (determine not guilty) the guilty sinner of those sins. Christ had no sin, He is truly righteous, we are not are forgiven the sins (Determine not guilty) that we have committed. That is why Paul says that it was Abraham's faith that was counted as righteousness, Abraham was not righteous, he sinned like other men, however, because he believed (Had faith in) God, God counted that faith as righteousness. In other words because Abraham had faith God acquitted him of the sins that he had committed.

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 03:32 PM
No, it is not essential to the issue. The issue is the righteousness that is imputed to the believer.



That is simply not correct. We can do nothing good??? Really? Can you supply Scripture for this? These reformed statements get repeated over and over and over without and Scriptural support. So many times a verse is taken out of context and used to support a reformed idea when in reality the verse does not say what the poster is claiming.

Let me ask you a question, does the Spirit of God dwell in wicked men?
Rom 7:18

2 Cor 4:7

For the cause of Christ
Roger

MoreMercy
Oct 27th 2010, 04:06 PM
Not afraid, just meant that our works don't earn our Salvation. I wholeheartedly agree and believe that our works prove our faith. I'm a stay at home Dad. We live in a big city 14 hours away from any family and friends, the church we went to down here was a psyhco babble church and it had me testing everything under the moon and I have let it discourage me for the last 2 years. We only have one vehicle. When 2 of my kids are at school and my wife is at work she obviously has the vehicle. So me and my 3 year old boy are at home. We have a 5 week old baby. Now when my wife will go back to work I will be at home with the baby and my 3 three year old. By no means am I complaining about being home, far from it. My point is, I don't have adult contact very much. I feel as if I'm sitting here looking up stuff on the computer all the time that's got me twisting and turning and pondering things I've never pondered before. Some have been for good and opened my eyes. Alot has been bad and as I said, it has discouraged me. Even things on this board have made me question things. These things have made me start questioning my Salvation, and questioning if I'm not producing fruit the way I'm supposed to so of course then, I must be in trouble and so forth. I feel like I'm the evil and lazy slave in the parable of the talents. I'm afraid of God and fear what He could do, but I don't love Him enough because I'm not going to church or even more so, having any fellowship with other Christian men and serving in some compacity.

It's a dangerous time in my mind right now. And I am praying for God to reveal His truth in everything. I find myself quite often saying "have I believed in lies all my life and then been corrected and in other cases feel stuck like I can't figure out what the Spirit is saying to me." What if I'm just going through the motions and don't even know it? Or worse yet, what if I do know it and I'm not really doing anything about it or feel cornered like I don't know how to do anything about it.
Hey ClayInHisHands I really hear what you said here.

What I want to share with you is; I too was and am still discouraged by the lack of any observable fruit, from my past and even today too still.
I have called that insecure attitude in my self: The 'Isaiah syndrome' because some of his what I call arguments between himself and God were basically: Man oh man Father why do not I see any fruit coming from the instructions you gave me to do, but in my case it is: Man oh man Father why do I not see any fruit from me trying to abide under the instructions that you left for us.
But in reality, there was fruit and there still is fruit being produced by me trying to continue to abide under His instructions that He left for us.
It is still hard and even impossible for me to see or realize any current fruit coming from my efforts to be obedient to His instructions, but when I look back at my history since I decided to actually follow Christ and not just agree He is Lord but actually follow Him (just as you are doing) then I can see the good fruit He produced out of my 'efforts' to please Him in my 'efforts' to abide in obedience to His instructions.
I personally can see your fruit by just reading your words in the quote above, I can see good fruit from you brother !
...being humility, an obedient stewardship of your family and your growing understanding of Father's works in your life and also your understanding of His work's in His fallen creation/the world we live in.

I too do not have any mature Christian adults to interact with currently (besides some who I converse with here on the forums) and also from since five or six years ago too I have had none. So, I know what you mean there.
Do not let that discourage you brother. Stand your ground and do not compromise just for mature Christian adult fellowship, or you will actually be selling your inheritance for a bowl of soup for your apatite as Esau did in our bible. Genesis chapter 25 an on.

And I also totally understand what you say about "psycho babbling church" too, Amen !
I have forsaken fellowship in gathering together unto Him in our modern what we call "church" for that same reason, although in the past two years I feel Him pulling me out of that attitude once I have learned what He desired I learn first. Trust Him, stand your ground and look to Him, not look for Him for specific answers but look for Him and He will show you Him, and when He shows you Him, all and every answer you desire: the answer will be illuminated by what He showed you of Him from you looking for Him, the timing of this process for us individually is incomprehensible (for any man) but is dependent on what He desires you to learn to equip you to work His will in and on His fallen creation.

I hope all my babbling has not wearied you brother and I hope it is understandable to you personally, because what you have posted in the quote above is VERY UNDERSTANDABLE to me personally.


Father bless you and yours more and more, good servant of my Master. Allowing you to bless us in return.

Butch5
Oct 27th 2010, 04:50 PM
Rom 7:18

2 Cor 4:7

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, please, context. Are you seriusly saying that Paul never did a single good thing before he became a Christian? When he obeyed the commands of the Law was was that not being obedient to God?

Servant89
Oct 27th 2010, 08:30 PM
No, we don't agree, it is not the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to the believer. Righteousness is imputed to the believe by God, based on the faith of the believer. The Greek word for righteous means to acquit, find not guilty. The believer is found not guilty based on placing his faith in Christ. That is the righteousness which is from God that Paul speaks of, he is not saying that when one places faith in Christ that God takes the righteous acts of Christ and imputes (credits) those acts to the believer. We are guilty fo the sins we commit, however, if one places faith in Christ God has promised to acquit (determine not guilty) the guilty sinner of those sins. Christ had no sin, He is truly righteous, we are not are forgiven the sins (Determine not guilty) that we have committed. That is why Paul says that it was Abraham's faith that was counted as righteousness, Abraham was not righteous, he sinned like other men, however, because he believed (Had faith in) God, God counted that faith as righteousness. In other words because Abraham had faith God acquitted him of the sins that he had committed.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Trust me we agree. But on your mind, you actually think that I said or was talking about the righteous ACTS of Jesus Christ. No one said that, except you. Please, do not add to my words.

I agree with what you stated. I do not believe God thinks I went to the cross to pay for the sins of many or shed my blood as payment for anything.

Shalom

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 09:26 PM
Roger, please, context. Are you seriusly saying that Paul never did a single good thing before he became a Christian? When he obeyed the commands of the Law was was that not being obedient to God?
Yes especially when you obey expecting reward. Obeying the law to the Jew was the minimum requirement not done for extra credit. Paul wrote in Romans 3:12 that there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Isaiah wrote all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Isa 64:6

Christ is the context.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

MoreMercy
Oct 27th 2010, 09:31 PM
Isaiah wrote all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Isa 64:6

Wow, I remember Paul saying the same thing in one of His letters to a church but using a much more descriptive Greek word for the filthy rags , I did not know until now that he was quoting from Isaiah.
Cool beans... thanks, notuptome.


Father blesses.

Servant89
Oct 27th 2010, 09:59 PM
Self righteousness is the second worst sin ever. Those that think of themselves holier than the rest based on the works of the law... those that measure righteousness relative to how well people keep the law are the self righteous, those that count on their own resume in the law.

Is 65:5 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

This is how we can be perfectly holy (admit you need a Savior)...

Jn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

This is how we can be perfect for ever...

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Consider why Jesus had so much patience with the self proclaimed sinners and such a short fuse with the self proclaimed righteous. consider that ...

Shalom

Butch5
Oct 27th 2010, 11:25 PM
[QUOTE=notuptome;2538440]Yes especially when you obey expecting reward. Obeying the law to the Jew was the minimum requirement not done for extra credit. Paul wrote in Romans 3:12 that there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Isaiah wrote all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Isa 64:6

Christ is the context.

For the cause of Christ

You didn't answer the question Roger, are you seriously saying that Paul never did a single good thing before he became a Christian?

Again, your quotes, context please. It appears you don't understand Paul becuase you using his quote out of context. In Romans 3:12 Paul is addressing the Jewish believer and comparing the Jew and the Gentile, He says prior to verse twelve, 'are we any better than they' (The Gentiles). Then he draws a conclusion, no we are not there is none that does good, but his statement is in the context of Jew and Gentile.

Romans 3:8-18 ( KJV )
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Paul says "As it is written" which means he quoting the OT, this passage is a reference to Israel. Look at the next statement Paul makes.


Romans 3:19 ( KJV )
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Paul's quotes come from the OT, the Law and he says that they pertain to those who are under the Law, that was Israel. Paul is not saying every single person who will ever live is incapable of doing a single good act.

Likewise the quote from Isaiah is speaking of Israel. You just quoted verse 6 out of context. Let's put it back in context and we can see that Isaiah is contrasting those who wait on the Lord with the the sinning Israelites.

Isaiah 64:4-7 ( KJV )
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

We can see the contrast, Israel had sinned causing God to be angry, however, we see that Isaiah says that God is patient with those who do righteousness, Israel had sinned.

Butch5
Oct 27th 2010, 11:30 PM
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Trust me we agree. But on your mind, you actually think that I said or was talking about the righteous ACTS of Jesus Christ. No one said that, except you. Please, do not add to my words.

I agree with what you stated. I do not believe God thinks I went to the cross to pay for the sins of many or shed my blood as payment for anything.

Shalom

That is not what I was saying. What I was saying is that many Christians think that Christ lived the perfect life and therefore is righteous, that is correct. However, they also believe that when they have faith that this same righteousness is transferred to their account (as it is so often put) that is not correct. The righteousness that is imputed to the believe by God is God's declaring the believer righteous based upon his placing faith in Christ, a faith that includes obedience.

Butch5
Oct 27th 2010, 11:33 PM
Self righteousness is the second worst sin ever. Those that think of themselves holier than the rest based on the works of the law... those that measure righteousness relative to how well people keep the law are the self righteous, those that count on their own resume in the law.

Is 65:5 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

This is how we can be perfectly holy (admit you need a Savior)...

Jn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

This is how we can be perfect for ever...

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Consider why Jesus had so much patience with the self proclaimed sinners and such a short fuse with the self proclaimed righteous. consider that ...

Shalom

Except that the Gentiles were no under the law and I don't think the Jews of today abide by it either, so what is your point?

Butch5
Oct 27th 2010, 11:37 PM
Wow, I remember Paul saying the same thing in one of His letters to a church but using a much more descriptive Greek word for the filthy rags , I did not know until now that he was quoting from Isaiah.
Cool beans... thanks, notuptome.


Father blesses.

Hi MM,

That passage from Isaiah is "Not" quoted in the NT. It is a favorite of the Reformed. It is funny that having such a passage available Paul never did quote it, yet the reformed use it like John 3:16. One would think that if Paul was trying to say that there was absolutely nothing of value in a man this would be the perfect passage to quote, yet Paul doesn't do so.

MoreMercy
Oct 27th 2010, 11:52 PM
Hi MM,

That passage from Isaiah is "Not" quoted in the NT. It is a favorite of the Reformed. It is funny that having such a passage available Paul never did quote it, yet the reformed use it like John 3:16. One would think that if Paul was trying to say that there was absolutely nothing of value in a man this would be the perfect passage to quote, yet Paul doesn't do so.
Hmm, ok thank you.
I will try and find the NT verse where I thought Paul said almost the exact same thing.

Father bless.

Servant89
Oct 28th 2010, 12:17 AM
That is not what I was saying. What I was saying is that many Christians think that Christ lived the perfect life and therefore is righteous, that is correct. However, they also believe that when they have faith that this same righteousness is transferred to their account (as it is so often put) that is not correct. The righteousness that is imputed to the believe by God is God's declaring the believer righteous based upon his placing faith in Christ, a faith that includes obedience.

Christ is perfect and we were made perfect. Christ is holy and we were made holy. That is why Rom 4:11 states that righteousness was imputed to us, the righteousness of God by Faith. I will be satisfied when I shall awake with his likeness, perfect and holy as he is and that righteousness will not come from me, it will be imputed on me by the grace of God.

Shalom

MoreMercy
Oct 28th 2010, 12:18 AM
Hey Butch5


Isaiah wrote all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Isa 64:6


Hi MM,

Wow, I remember Paul saying the same thing in one of His letters to a church but using a much more descriptive Greek word for the filthy rags , I did not know until now that he was quoting from Isaiah.
Cool beans... thanks, notuptome.


Father blesses.
That passage from Isaiah is "Not" quoted in the NT. It is a favorite of the Reformed. It is funny that having such a passage available Paul never did quote it, yet the reformed use it like John 3:16. One would think that if Paul was trying to say that there was absolutely nothing of value in a man this would be the perfect passage to quote, yet Paul doesn't do so. I think this is the one Im looking for by Paul:

Phil 3:7-9
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, [B]and do count them [but] dung/σκύβαλον skybalon, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness/δικαιοσύνη dikaiosynē, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness/δικαιοσύνη dikaiosynē which is of God by faith

That to me looks Like Paul quoting Isaiah 64:6, but in Paul's own paraphrased choloacial Greek.


Father bless.

Servant89
Oct 28th 2010, 12:20 AM
Except that the Gentiles were no under the law and I don't think the Jews of today abide by it either, so what is your point?

The title of this thread is: Are we really imputed with righteousness?

Either we are or we have to earn it ourselves and count on our own. That's my point. I want to be found not having my own righteousness but the righteousness which comes from God by faith.

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Shalom

Sirus
Oct 28th 2010, 12:36 AM
The title of this thread is: Are we really imputed with righteousness?

Either we are or we have to earn it ourselves and count on our own. That's my point. I want to be found not having my own righteousness but the righteousness which comes from God by faith.

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

ShalomIt says "And be found in him". It doesn't say And be found having His righteousness.

MoreMercy
Oct 28th 2010, 12:47 AM
It says "And be found in him". It doesn't say And be found having His righteousness.

When a person abides in Christ/His truth and light, then that person has that same righteousness imparted to them, I happen to think not until the day of judgement, but still the same (the person abiding in Christ has that righteousness of Christ in them when/if they abide in Him)


Father bless.

Sirus
Oct 28th 2010, 01:15 AM
But it doesn't say that anywhere. It says He is the justifier, not the imputer [EDIT -imputer of His personal righteousness].

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
..............
.......
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
I'm working on a post for Butch5. Hopefully then my position will be better understood.

MoreMercy
Oct 28th 2010, 01:39 AM
But it doesn't say that anywhere. It says He is the justifier, not the imputer.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
..............
.......
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
I'm working on a post for Butch5. Hopefully then my position will be better understood.
Thank you for all of the colorful emotes.

I agree...Father is the imputor
But... Christ is the vessel of the righteousness, if we abide in Him/Christ we recieve that imputed righteousness. I happen to think not imputed until the day of judgement, but still the same (the person abiding in Christ has that righteousness of Christ imputed by Father upon/in the account of them if they abide in Him/Christ)

Father bless

Sirus
Oct 28th 2010, 02:13 AM
Ah, but the Father has given all judgment to Jesus. Judge by the resurrection from the dead. If righteousness is imputed it is done by Jesus. That's what it says. Notice the color for righteousness, justified, just, and justifier is the same. There's a reason for that. Same word. I didn't take the time with all the different colors for the fun of it.
blue all represent the same thing.
the gospel of Christ
therein
[the] faith
but now
at this time

green is the law/old economy

gold is believe and continued belief (believeth)

what righteousness by faith is based on, is pink

Beautiful Loser
Oct 28th 2010, 03:07 AM
My mouth shall tell of Your righteousness and of Your salvation all day long; for I do not know the sum of them. I will come with the mighty deeds of the Lord God; I will make mention of Your righteousness, Yours alone. Psa 71:15,16

Pretty simple. If your pointing to a righteousness that isn't God's, it isn't righteousness, but evil.

Jesus literally is our righteousness (among other aspects):

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption. 1 Cor 1:30

Or you can keep it really basic (and really correct):

I said to the LORD, "You are my Lord; I have no good besides You". Psa 16:2

If your pointing to anything 'good' that is not from, through, and to God (Rom 11:36) you are pointing to a false good; otherwise known as an idol. In other words, if you are pointing at yourself for anything good, you are viewing yourself just like you would an idol.

MoreMercy
Oct 28th 2010, 03:29 AM
Ah, but the Father has given all judgment to Jesus. Judge by the resurrection from the dead. If righteousness is imputed it is done by Jesus. That's what it says. Notice the color for righteousness, justified, just, and justifier is the same. There's a reason for that. Same word. I didn't take the time with all the different colors for the fun of it.
blue all represent the same thing.
the gospel of Christ
therein
[the] faith
but now
at this time

green is the law/old economy

gold is believe and continued belief (believeth)

what righteousness by faith is based on, is pink


Ok, first you say in your post prior to this quoted one that Christ does not impute.
Now on this post you say He does ?

I cannot dialog with that, unless I misunderstood one of the last two post of yours ?

Thank you
Father bless.

Sirus
Oct 28th 2010, 03:42 AM
Ok, first you say in your post prior to this quoted one that Christ does not impute.that's...He is justifier not the imputer of His personal righteousness
Sorry

MoreMercy
Oct 28th 2010, 04:06 AM
Ok I can agree, He is and will be our/all of humanities judge on that day.
So, where does that leave our discussion of: Are we really imputed with righteousness?
This is where me and you disagreed:



Originally Posted by Sirus
It says "And be found in him". It doesn't say And be found having His righteousness.
When a person abides in Christ/His truth and light, then that person has that same righteousness imparted to them, I happen to think not until the day of judgement, but still the same (the person abiding in Christ has that righteousness of Christ in them when/if they abide in Him)

Father bless.

Sirus
Oct 28th 2010, 04:08 AM
Ok, first you say in your post prior to this quoted one that Christ does not impute.
Now on this post you say He does ?

I cannot dialog with that, unless I misunderstood one of the last two post of yours ?

Thank you
Father bless.Put simply, For the Just One to count us in right standing with God because of our faith in His blood, is not counting us to have His record. Scripture simply does not says this. I did not live a sinless life for 33 years and die for the sins of the world. That is not what counted righteous and what made and having the righteousness of God means.

Sirus
Oct 28th 2010, 04:12 AM
Ok I can agree, He is and will be our/all of humanities judge on that day.
So, where does that leave our discussion of: Are we really imputed with righteousness?
This is where me and you disagreed:The discussion isn't about being counted righteous. No one disputes that. The question is are we imputed His personal righteousness.

Wouldn’t being imputed or having Christ’s righteousness transferred to me make it hard to accept the concept that while I make decisions sometimes to fulfill the flesh when tempted that I can fall into the trap of thinking that “I’m okay”, “I struggle”, “I’m just human”, “God knows I’m not perfect”? All the while God just looks at me and can’t really see my SIN because when He looks upon me He only sees the blood of Christ; the righteousness of Christ. How can we reconcile that obedience is integral in our walk if the aforementioned quotations I made are used frequently by the vast majority of Christians?

MoreMercy
Oct 28th 2010, 04:29 AM
The discussion isn't about being counted righteous. No one disputes that. The question is are we imputed His personal righteousness.
Ah, thank you for the redirection, I am a bit scattered hopping from board to board and thread to thread to post, forgive me please...

Ok so I will redirect the conversation to what I introduced earlier on the first page of this thread, my OP:

My opinion: We do not have imputed righteousness UNTIL that great day of God's judgement.... now please, before your head starts spinning read my explanation first, please.

If/when I am born from above/born again by my repentance of my old life and acceptance of Christ work on my behalf, then I am a new creature but still an infant-new creature and in dire continuous need of 'His' light, truth, food and drink to mature into His likeness.

If my new creature's stomach will not accept/digest/agree with His light, truth, food and drink then I am reprobate and in need of repentance again, which would shame the blood of Christ, Father's sacrifice for my justification to allow me eternal fellowship with Him.

(note) Not saying that if I still sin that I will shame the blood of Christ, but saying that if still sin and think that I do not sin, then I will shame the blood of Christ, Father's sacrifice for my justification to allow me eternal fellowship with Him.
IE: A goat, leading others astray.

If I sin after becoming a new creature by Christ work, then I need to confess/know and admit that I sinned and know too that if I continue in that sin I will have fallen away/become reprobate/became a goat.
IE: A sheep, easily lead astray.

Hence my opinion that we do not have imputed righteousness, UNTIL that great day of God's judgement.
We will be separated on that great day: sheep on one side, goats on the other side on that great day.
The sheep will be imputed with righteousness and judged for rewards for their works on that great day.
The goats will be imputed with righteous-judgement/wrath and rewarded justly for their works on that great day.

Now those who had no chance to feed or drink of Him before that great day, I believe will be judged by His mercy alone.
Does that quote in blue suffice the question on:
The question is are we imputed His personal righteousness. I say yes but, with a but. IE: the quote above in blue


Thank you again for sharing your time and energy here with me to resolve.
Father blesses.

Sirus
Oct 28th 2010, 04:38 AM
Ah, thank you for the redirection, I am a bit scattered hopping from board to board and thread to thread to post, forgive me please...

Ok so I will redirect the conversation to what I introduced earlier on the first page of this thread, my OP:

Does that quote in blue suffice the question on:
The question is are we imputed His personal righteousness. I say yes but, with a but. IE: the quote above in blue


Thank you again for sharing your time and energy here with me to resolve.
Father blesses.OK, but I don't see you saying Christ's righteousness is imputed there in blue. You just say imputed righteousness.
Thank you for putting up with my bad wording and trying to understand it!

MoreMercy
Oct 28th 2010, 05:00 AM
OK, but I don't see you saying Christ's righteousness is imputed there in blue. You just say imputed righteousness.
Thank you for putting up with my bad wording and trying to understand it!
I have had no problem with your wording friend, I think I have understood your communication and points so far, I just seem to disagree with them a bit.

Yes, I do believe we are imputed with His/Christ's personal righteousness, it Is His robe(persay) to cover our iniquity/sin from Father's eyes for us to be restored to eternal fellowship with God.
But, it is an option not a given. It has a clause IE: We must agree/confess Christ as Father's sacrifice for our iniquity/sin And follow Christ instructions of obedience/love of Father and our fellows.

Also another but, That righteousness that is imparted to us, is imparted to us by Father.
IE: Christ is Fathers sacrifice for our transgressions in iniquity/sin.
Purposed to restore humanities (same option clause again) purposed to restore humanities eternal fellowship with/to God.


Whew, sorry so wordy
Thank you
Father bless.

percho
Oct 28th 2010, 05:01 AM
It is better said here in the King James Version

Galatians 2:16,17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

There we are imputed with the righteousness of God causing this.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. See Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

The just shall live by faith taken from Hab.2:4 The just shall live by his faith. Read Coffman's commentary on Hab.2:4 He is not totally correct but close and you can see where that it is by the faithfulness/faith of Jesus that justifies and makes righteous man allowing God to give him the gift of eternal life. That is the reason the KJV is correct in using of.

That is the reason Jesus is called the author and finisher of the faith in Heb. 12:2

To see Coffman go to studylight.org.

Sirus
Oct 29th 2010, 12:22 AM
Yes, I do believe we are imputed with His/Christ's personal righteousness, it Is His robe(persay) to cover our iniquity/sin from Father's eyes for us to be restored to eternal fellowship with God.His robe? It says we have/are the righteousness of God because we believe and obey Jesus and will be given a white robe. It never says it is His righteousness accomplished while here on earth and it never says it is His robe. Abraham and Noah obtained the righteousness of God which is by faith. How did they get Jesus' righteousness accomplished while here on earth then if Jesus had not come?

Butch5
Oct 29th 2010, 12:48 AM
The title of this thread is: Are we really imputed with righteousness?

Either we are or we have to earn it ourselves and count on our own. That's my point. I want to be found not having my own righteousness but the righteousness which comes from God by faith.

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Shalom

We are imputed with righteousness, it is being declared not guilty by God based on our belief and obedience to Christ. When Paul says, 'my own righteousness,' he is speaking of keeping the Mosaic Law. He is not speaking of being obedient to Christ. It is imperative that we keep these passages in context.

Butch5
Oct 29th 2010, 12:53 AM
Christ is perfect and we were made perfect. Christ is holy and we were made holy. That is why Rom 4:11 states that righteousness was imputed to us, the righteousness of God by Faith. I will be satisfied when I shall awake with his likeness, perfect and holy as he is and that righteousness will not come from me, it will be imputed on me by the grace of God.

Shalom

No, we were not made perfect. Are you saying that you no longer sin? If you sin you are not perfect. Christ was perfect, He did not sin. You are holy if you live holy. God has set the believer apart for His purpose, yet it is incumbent upon the believer to live that wasy.

Sirus
Oct 29th 2010, 12:57 AM
Hi Clay,

It seems you understand it correctly, except it seems you are afraid to say works. It was Abraham's obedience (Works) that God counted as righteousness.This is wrong. There's no works here. Abraham believed God, that he would have a son and would be the father of a great nation. That's all.


Gen 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

We are imputed (counted, credited, considered) righteous by God based on what we do. If we are obedient to God He counts that toward us a being righteous.It doesn't say this for when Abraham believed the promise. It said, and reiterates in the NT for our belief in the gospel, that Abraham believed God and was counted righteous. It was not specifically because of anything he did. Only what he believed.


God has promised to acquit those who will place their faith in Jesus and be obedient to Him.Abraham's faith in what God said, that counted him righteous, was later and continued to be counted righteous by works 7 chapters later. Lets not confuse the two incidents. You even quoted it.
"by works was faith made perfect"
Which is why it says
"the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:"
Which is why you said
"faith in Jesus and be obedient
.......As has been pointed out in other threads there are numerous passages of Scripture that state the one who does not obey will not see live, therefore obedience is absolutely necessary in order to see life. James tells how faith and works (obedience) work together to create a faith that is of saving quality."
and I agree. The same faith Abraham had when he only believed what God said was later seen in Abraham's actions. We walk by faith. The same faith Abraham had when he was counted righteous, was the same faith when he offered Isaac. Circumcision, was 2 chapters after being counted righteous by faith only as well. Romans 4:10 makes this very clear as well. That Abraham only believed and was counted righteous. James simply points out this continued in a walk. Paul points out the same in Romans 4.


James 2:20-24 ( KJV )
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

In this passage James is referring to Genesis 22,

Genesis 22:11-18 ( KJV )
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Actually, we see it is not just chapter 22 but also chapter 15. Which came first? Faith or works? Faith. He was counted righteous in uncircumcision simply believing what God said. The works that came later were a result of and a continuation of the same faith, because Abraham walked by faith.

There's not different levels of the righteousness of God. The righteousness of God is what it is and it is perfect righteousness and only the man Christ Jesus accomplished that for mankind to offer as a gift for all and to give to all that believe -Rom 3:22. So for us it's called the righteousness of God that is in Christ. I agree that level of righteousness, His level of righteousness, is not imputed to us. The position -righteousness of God- is given as a gift by the only man to ever achieve it -Rom 5:17-18.

The idea that were are not righteous until we have works is contrary to the gospel of Christ. The thief on the cross and Abraham come to mind. You say the thief is the exception not the rule, but that doesn't change the fact that he was counted righteous when he believed and confessed Christ, as all believers are. Those that have the opportunity to perfect faith by works either do or don't. That's a completely different debate. If they do they do, if they don't they are bad ground, squander the gift of righteousness, and have shipwrecked faith.

Butch5
Oct 29th 2010, 01:01 AM
Hey Butch5



I think this is the one Im looking for by Paul:

Phil 3:7-9
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, [B]and do count them [but] dung/σκύβαλον skybalon, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness/δικαιοσύνη dikaiosynē, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness/δικαιοσύνη dikaiosynē which is of God by faith

That to me looks Like Paul quoting Isaiah 64:6, but in Paul's own paraphrased choloacial Greek.


Father bless.

There is a major difference here, Paul is speaking on his own behalf, Isaiah is speaking on behalf of all Israel. Paul is saying that he has suffered the loss of all things and counts them as dung. He is speaking of the loss of things, he is not saying that everything he has done is dung. In other words Paul has given up everything for the cause of Christ and counts the cause of Christ more valuable.

Isaiah on the other hand is speaking on behalf of Israel, who had sinned against God. God was angry with Israel and Isaiah pleads their case. It is in this context that he says all of our (Israel's) righteousnesses are as filthy rags. It is "Not" God who says that but Isaiah, on behalf of Israel.

percho
Oct 29th 2010, 01:12 AM
No, we were not made perfect. Are you saying that you no longer sin? If you sin you are not perfect. Christ was perfect, He did not sin. You are holy if you live holy. God has set the believer apart for His purpose, yet it is incumbent upon the believer to live that wasy.

I agree Butch5 we have not been made perfect. However we are seen as perfect in Christ. That is the difference between being an heir and an inheritor. Because when we are in Christ we are heirs. There will be a time when we shall be made perfect. That is when we become inheritors. The dead in Christ are still heirs not inheritors. See Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. We become inheritors in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. Perfection = can not sin. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Sirus
Oct 29th 2010, 01:13 AM
We are imputed with righteousness, it is being declared not guilty by God based on our belief and obedience to Christ. When Paul says, 'my own righteousness,' he is speaking of keeping the Mosaic Law. He is not speaking of being obedient to Christ. It is imperative that we keep these passages in context.I agree. I would just add "alone" to
"When Paul says, 'my own righteousness,' he is speaking of keeping the Mosaic Law" -alone

MoreMercy
Oct 29th 2010, 04:29 AM
There is a major difference here, Paul is speaking on his own behalf, Isaiah is speaking on behalf of all Israel. Paul is saying that he has suffered the loss of all things and counts them as dung. He is speaking of the loss of things, he is not saying that everything he has done is dung. In other words Paul has given up everything for the cause of Christ and counts the cause of Christ more valuable.

Isaiah on the other hand is speaking on behalf of Israel, who had sinned against God. God was angry with Israel and Isaiah pleads their case. It is in this context that he says all of our (Israel's) righteousnesses are as filthy rags. It is "Not" God who says that but Isaiah, on behalf of Israel.

Ok, I thought Paul was speaking of his own personal accomplishments and kind of still do but anyway, I see your point.
Thank you for indulging me.


Father blesses.

MoreMercy
Oct 29th 2010, 04:46 AM
His robe? It says we have/are the righteousness of God because we believe and obey Jesus and will be given a white robe. It never says it is His righteousness accomplished while here on earth and it never says it is His robe. Abraham and Noah obtained the righteousness of God which is by faith. How did they get Jesus' righteousness accomplished while here on earth then if Jesus had not come?
First,
I used robe symbolically as it is used in OT scripture, I used it here to symbolize Christ spilt blood/His sacrifice which covers our sins from Father's eyes making it possible to approach Him/Father now, and eternally after our resurection through our faith in and our obedience to Christ.

Second,
Christ Jesus was/is GOD in the flesh, Father said in OT scripture that they will call/name Him 'Emanuel' transliterated means GOD with us. So in that respect you are correct it is God's righteousness but I do not want it took away from Christ because it is His/Christ sacrifice that Father offered for us to be restore to eternal fellowship to Himself. Christ was righteous/perfect when He walked earth among us even until He willingly offered His flesh life/blood, otherwise He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice for our redemption.

Third,
Abraham, Noah and all our biblical patriarchs pre-Christ works, who were accounted righteous by Father were by their own faith in Father's spoken word. <----

So now we in the age of Grace, any and all post-Christ's works saints/redeemed men or women are accounted righteous by Father through Christ's faith in the "spoken word" which is equated as righteousness to Christ. So we are accounted righteous by our faith in the living Word/Christ.<---- because Christ was perfect righteousness by His perfect obedience/faith the "spoken word" just as Abraham and Noah were by their faith in the "spoken word".
....Making Him/Christ Father's acceptable sacrifice to redeem us in this age of Grace, by our faith in the living word/Christ through Christ's faith in the spoken word by His perfect obedience to it.

Please don't ever try to make me repeat that one again, that was laybor. :lol:


Father bless.

Servant89
Oct 29th 2010, 05:09 AM
Put simply, For the Just One to count us in right standing with God because of our faith in His blood, is not counting us to have His record. Scripture simply does not says this. I did not live a sinless life for 33 years and die for the sins of the world. That is not what counted righteous and what made and having the righteousness of God means.

Oh ! But there is the goodness of God !!! If you take the phrase: "and died for the sins of the world" out of your statement, I beg to disagree. Because even though I have not lived a sinless life, because of his blood, I now have a record that states I am sinless and holy, just as holy and sinless as Jesus Christ, and as long as I remain abiding in him and his seed remains in me, it will be like that. Here it is.

1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And that same book of 1John explains that when it is referring of never commiting sin, it is not talking about our own resume. See it.

1 Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The way we are kept from sinning in God's book when we become Christians is because he removed the law for us.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

ROM 4:15 … for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1JO 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ROM 5:13 … but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

That is how we have his resume in terms of living a sinless life (even thou we sin, in his book we have the same level of holiness as Jesus Christ).

Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Shalom

percho
Oct 29th 2010, 05:13 PM
I do not think we can resolve this as long as we use the word our relative to the word faith. No one commented on my post no. 57. In Hebrews 12:2 the word our KJV should not be there. It should be the faith. The faith of? The Christian religion, God, Christ who/what? Does this verse not make faith of Christ a clearer understanding where used by KJV? Course it causes chapter 11 to mean those spoken of acted according to the will and faithfulness of God instead of on their own accord. Again see post 57 and Coffmen's comments.

Relative to Coffmen's comments and on obedience of faith coincides with Phillippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. and Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

By the way the righteousness of God and the faith of God work hand in hand causing see post 63.

MoreMercy
Oct 29th 2010, 05:45 PM
I do not think we can resolve this as long as we use the word our relative to the word faith. No one commented on my post no. 57. In Hebrews 12:2 the word our KJV should not be there. It should be the faith. The faith of? The Christian religion, God, Christ who/what? Does this verse not make faith of Christ a clearer understanding where used by KJV? Course it causes chapter 11 to mean those spoken of acted according to the will and faithfulness of God instead of on their own accord. Again see post 57 and Coffmen's comments.

Relative to Coffmen's comments and on obedience of faith coincides with Phillippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. and Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

By the way the righteousness of God and the faith of God work hand in hand causing see post 63.

I tried to explain that same thing, it is Christ faith in the spoken word of God that is His perfect/righteousness, that when we have faith in Him/Christ we recieve that same righteousness of Christ's, it is imparted/imputed to us by Father, through Christ's faith/righteousness. ?



Abraham, Noah and all our biblical patriarchs pre-Christ works, who were accounted righteous by Father were by their own faith in Father's spoken word. <----

So now we in the age of Grace, any and all post-Christ's works saints/redeemed men or women are accounted righteous by Father through Christ's faith in the "spoken word" which is equated as righteousness to Christ. So we are accounted righteous by our faith in the living Word/Christ.<---- because Christ was perfect righteousness by His perfect obedience/faith the "spoken word" just as Abraham and Noah were by their faith in the "spoken word".

....Making Him/Christ Father's acceptable sacrifice to redeem us in this age of Grace, by our faith in the living word/Christ through Christ's faith in the spoken word by His perfect obedience to it.


Father bless.

Butch5
Oct 29th 2010, 07:18 PM
This is wrong. There's no works here. Abraham believed God, that he would have a son and would be the father of a great nation. That's all.



Gen 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
It doesn't say this for when Abraham believed the promise. It said, and reiterates in the NT for our belief in the gospel, that Abraham believed God and was counted righteous. It was not specifically because of anything he did. Only what he believed.

Abraham's faith in what God said, that counted him righteous, was later and continued to be counted righteous by works 7 chapters later. Lets not confuse the two incidents. You even quoted it.

"by works was faith made perfect"
Which is why it says

"the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:"
Which is why you said

"faith in Jesus and be obedient
.......As has been pointed out in other threads there are numerous passages of Scripture that state the one who does not obey will not see live, therefore obedience is absolutely necessary in order to see life. James tells how faith and works (obedience) work together to create a faith that is of saving quality."
and I agree. The same faith Abraham had when he only believed what God said was later seen in Abraham's actions. We walk by faith. The same faith Abraham had when he was counted righteous, was the same faith when he offered Isaac. Circumcision, was 2 chapters after being counted righteous by faith only as well. Romans 4:10 makes this very clear as well. That Abraham only believed and was counted righteous. James simply points out this continued in a walk. Paul points out the same in Romans 4.

Actually, we see it is not just chapter 22 but also chapter 15. Which came first? Faith or works? Faith. He was counted righteous in uncircumcision simply believing what God said. The works that came later were a result of and a continuation of the same faith, because Abraham walked by faith.

There's not different levels of the righteousness of God. The righteousness of God is what it is and it is perfect righteousness and only the man Christ Jesus accomplished that for mankind to offer as a gift for all and to give to all that believe -Rom 3:22. So for us it's called the righteousness of God that is in Christ. I agree that level of righteousness, His level of righteousness, is not imputed to us. The position -righteousness of God- is given as a gift by the only man to ever achieve it -Rom 5:17-18.

The idea that were are not righteous until we have works is contrary to the gospel of Christ. The thief on the cross and Abraham come to mind. You say the thief is the exception not the rule, but that doesn't change the fact that he was counted righteous when he believed and confessed Christ, as all believers are. Those that have the opportunity to perfect faith by works either do or don't. That's a completely different debate. If they do they do, if they don't they are bad ground, squander the gift of righteousness, and have shipwrecked faith.

I think you overlooked a few key facts. One, Abraham obeyed God from the very beginning before he was ever counted righteous. God told Abraham to leave the land he dwelt in and he did. This act of obedience came before his being counted righteous, so I don't think there is any grounds for your statement that Abraham was justified by belief only. Do you think if Abraham had said no, I'm not leaving the land that he would have been considered righteous, even if he believed God? I also believe James whole argument is that one is not justified by simply believing. Two, James makes it a point to mention that the Scripture was fulfilled that said Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. James specifically says this was when Abraham offered Isaac, which seems to suggest that his being considered righteous here has more significance. I believe this is born out by the fact that upon this act of obedience God goes from giving Abraham a promise to swearing an oath to him. Once God swore that oath it was set in stone. No matter what Abraham did from that point it was not going to change that oath. This was more than simply a promise and it was based on Abraham's obedience to God's command.

You said Abraham was considered righteous based sole on his belief in what God said.


There's no works here. Abraham believed God, that he would have a son and would be the father of a great nation. That's all.

I'm curious what you base that conclusion on.

Are you basing it solely on the fact that the passage doesn't mention any works? It is obvious by this time that Abraham has been obedient to God's commands, don't you think that God is taking that into account? Suppose we used that line of reasoning on another passage. Consider Pharaoh, by the end of the plagues that God brought against Egypt don't you think that when Moses said to Pharaoh, God said, that Pharaoh believed what God said? I mean I think by the end Pharaoh was believing what God said, surely we wouldn't consider him righteous because he believe God.

MoreMercy
Oct 29th 2010, 07:47 PM
:hmm:
When I acknowledge a bridge, I believe in the bridge.

When I walk across the bridge I have faith in the bridge.


Father bless.

Butch5
Oct 29th 2010, 07:48 PM
I agree Butch5 we have not been made perfect. However we are seen as perfect in Christ. That is the difference between being an heir and an inheritor. Because when we are in Christ we are heirs. There will be a time when we shall be made perfect. That is when we become inheritors. The dead in Christ are still heirs not inheritors. See Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. We become inheritors in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. Perfection = can not sin. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

The word perfect does not mean without flaw, it meas complete. That is one of the points I was making in the post you quoted. By pointing out that we still sin I was trying to show that the word perfect does not mean without flaw. It means to be complete. or mature. And, I disagree that we are seen as perfect (Flawless) in Christ. God knows we sin and He sees our sin.

The passage you quoted does not mean it is impossible for the believer to sin.


1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is under the actions of the believer. The word "Commit" is in the active voice which means that it is the action of the believer. If it were God's doing it would be in the passive voice. The word "Cannot" is in the middle voice which means that the believer is both doing and receiving the action of the verb. This means that the action of "Cannot" is being done by the believer, not God. If God were doing it, it would be in the passive voice.

Butch5
Oct 29th 2010, 07:55 PM
I do not think we can resolve this as long as we use the word our relative to the word faith. No one commented on my post no. 57. In Hebrews 12:2 the word our KJV should not be there. It should be the faith. The faith of? The Christian religion, God, Christ who/what? Does this verse not make faith of Christ a clearer understanding where used by KJV? Course it causes chapter 11 to mean those spoken of acted according to the will and faithfulness of God instead of on their own accord. Again see post 57 and Coffmen's comments.

Relative to Coffmen's comments and on obedience of faith coincides with Phillippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. and Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

By the way the righteousness of God and the faith of God work hand in hand causing see post 63.

I read your post 57, the faith of Christ is the gospel message, it is not Jesus placing his faith in something and that faith saving us. The faith of Jesus Christ it what the apostles taught. The reason He is the author and finisher of our faith is because He is the one who determined it and He is the one who bought it to completion by going and dying on the cross freeing mankind and reconciling him to God. The passage is not saying that Jesus is controlling our believing or not believing the gospel message.

Butch5
Oct 29th 2010, 08:03 PM
Ok, I thought Paul was speaking of his own personal accomplishments and kind of still do but anyway, I see your point.
Thank you for indulging me.


Father blesses.

He may be, my point it that he is speaking for himself, not for all of mankind, likewise, Isaiah is speaking for Israel not all of mankind. However, Paul says he has suffered the loss of all things, I don't think he lost the good deeds he had done in his life. I think he is referring to things like the position he had among the Pharisees, remember he was Pharisee of the Pharisees. Apparently he had quite a bit of pull and authority. He lost all of that when he began to serve Christ. He may also have lost material things such as a home or other things. As A Pharisee he probably had a rather well to do life and when he became a Christian all of that would have been lost.

MoreMercy
Oct 29th 2010, 10:01 PM
He may be, my point it that he is speaking for himself, not for all of mankind, likewise, Isaiah is speaking for Israel not all of mankind. However, Paul says he has suffered the loss of all things, I don't think he lost the good deeds he had done in his life. I think he is referring to things like the position he had among the Pharisees, remember he was Pharisee of the Pharisees. Apparently he had quite a bit of pull and authority. He lost all of that when he began to serve Christ. He may also have lost material things such as a home or other things. As A Pharisee he probably had a rather well to do life and when he became a Christian all of that would have been lost.Amen !
I do see what you mean, and agree.

But for the benefit of some of the readers here about deeds/works because it does somewhat relate to the topic of imputed righteousness:

I know Paul knew this but does not speak to it that I know of.
I am wondering, that if I meet the mark and Christ recognizes me before the Father on that Great Day.
Then I will be rewarded for my deeds/works, as opposed to judged by my deeds/works if I am not recognized by Christ before the Father on that Great Day.
And, if rewarded and not judged by my deeds/works then I will be given and wearing a white as snow robe, and I hope be given a crown too, but I remember reading and hearing that those with said crowns will offer those crowns at Christ feet.

What are your thoughts on this...
Is the reward for the deeds/works of the ones Christ recognized before the Father on that Great Day: is the reward the "crown" or the "robe" ?


Father bless.

percho
Oct 29th 2010, 11:00 PM
I read your post 57, the faith of Christ is the gospel message, it is not Jesus placing his faith in something and that faith saving us. The faith of Jesus Christ it what the apostles taught. The reason He is the author and finisher of our faith is because He is the one who determined it and He is the one who bought it to completion by going and dying on the cross freeing mankind and reconciling him to God. The passage is not saying that Jesus is controlling our believing or not believing the gospel message.

So the KJV boys were wrong. Not the first time someone thought so and wont be the last. Needless to say I agree with them.

Just for info. Coffman is CofC. I am not. However did you read his comments on Hab. 2:4?

I guess the faith = The Christian religion for you. I believe it is deeper that that.

We are reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus. Faith, Righteouness Puts us in Christ heirs

While we are heirs we will remain fawed. imperfect, uncomplete still sining

We shall be saved by his life. Future when we become inheritors we will stand before God perfect as he is perfect without and unable to sin.

Butch5
Oct 29th 2010, 11:26 PM
Amen !
I do see what you mean, and agree.

But for the benefit of some of the readers here about deeds/works because it does somewhat relate to the topic of imputed righteousness:

I know Paul knew this but does not speak to it that I know of.
I am wondering, that if I meet the mark and Christ recognizes me before the Father on that Great Day.
Then I will be rewarded for my deeds/works, as opposed to judged by my deeds/works if I am not recognized by Christ before the Father on that Great Day.
And, if rewarded and not judged by my deeds/works then I will be given and wearing a white as snow robe, and I hope be given a crown too, but I remember reading and hearing that those with said crowns will offer those crowns at Christ feet.

What are your thoughts on this...
Is the reward for the deeds/works of the ones Christ recognized before the Father on that Great Day: is the reward the "crown" or the "robe" ?


Father bless.

I don't know if there will be actual crowns and robes, I suspect that the crown of life is eternal life. The white robes and the wedding garments according to John are the righteousness of the saints.


Revelation 19:6-8 ( KJV )
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Butch5
Oct 30th 2010, 12:13 AM
So the KJV boys were wrong. Not the first time someone thought so and wont be the last. Needless to say I agree with them.

What I am suggesting is a misunderstanding which sometimes happens when we translate from Greek to English. The Greek word that has been translated "of" is "Ek" and means from or out from. The definite article "The" specifies a specific faith, not just faith in general. The faith refers to the body of Christian doctrine.

2 Corinthians 13:5 ( KJV )
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Galatians 3:22-23 ( KJV )
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Ephesians 3:9-12 ( KJV )
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

What faith is "from" Him? The Christian faith.

Ephesians 4:13 ( KJV )
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Just for info. Coffman is CofC. I am not. However did you read his comments on Hab. 2:4?

No, I haven't



I guess the faith = The Christian religion for you. I believe it is deeper that that.

Do you have a Scriptural basis for believing it is deeper than that? You see this is how we get off track. If we start to interject things into the Scriptures that are not there we can wind of with doctrines that are not Scriptural. That is a major problem in American Christianity. Paul tells us what "The faith" is.

Philippians 1:27 ( KJV )
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Surely the gospel can't have faith, it's not alive, it is the message that Christ brought, the body of Christian doctrine. Paul calls it "The gospel of Christ" and tells hie Philippian readers to strive for "The Faith" of the Gospel, this is the faith of Jesus Christ. the faith that come "From" Jesus Christ.

Here again,

Colossians 2:12 ( KJV )
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

the operation of God is not a living thing that can have faith, it is the working of God, which believers partake of in holding to the body of Christian doctrine, the Faith.

Paul says it again to the Romans.

Romans 16:25-27 ( KJV )
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Again the preaching of Jesus Christ is the body of Christan doctrine that He gave.


We are reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus. Faith, Righteousness Puts us in Christ heirs
Agreed


While we are heirs we will remain flawed. imperfect, incomplete still sinning

Agreed


We shall be saved by his life. Future when we become inheritors we will stand before God perfect as he is perfect without and unable to sin.

Are you suggesting that Christ is unable to sin?

Sirus
Oct 30th 2010, 12:18 AM
First,
I used robe symbolically as it is used in OT scripture, I used it here to symbolize Christ spilt blood/His sacrifice which covers our sins from Father's eyes making it possible to approach Him/Father now, and eternally after our resurection through our faith in and our obedience to Christ.

Second,
Christ Jesus was/is GOD in the flesh, Father said in OT scripture that they will call/name Him 'Emanuel' transliterated means GOD with us. So in that respect you are correct it is God's righteousness but I do not want it took away from Christ because it is His/Christ sacrifice that Father offered for us to be restore to eternal fellowship to Himself. Christ was righteous/perfect when He walked earth among us even until He willingly offered His flesh life/blood, otherwise He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice for our redemption.

Third,
Abraham, Noah and all our biblical patriarchs pre-Christ works, who were accounted righteous by Father were by their own faith in Father's spoken word. <----

So now we in the age of Grace, any and all post-Christ's works saints/redeemed men or women are accounted righteous by Father through Christ's faith in the "spoken word" which is equated as righteousness to Christ. So we are accounted righteous by our faith in the living Word/Christ.<---- because Christ was perfect righteousness by His perfect obedience/faith the "spoken word" just as Abraham and Noah were by their faith in the "spoken word".
....Making Him/Christ Father's acceptable sacrifice to redeem us in this age of Grace, by our faith in the living word/Christ through Christ's faith in the spoken word by His perfect obedience to it.

Please don't ever try to make me repeat that one again, that was laybor. :lol:


Father bless.I agree with this, but none of it says we have been given anything other than a position of righteous.

Sirus
Oct 30th 2010, 12:25 AM
Oh ! But there is the goodness of God !!! If you take the phrase: "and died for the sins of the world" out of your statement, I beg to disagree. Because even though I have not lived a sinless life, because of his blood, I now have a record that states I am sinless and holy, just as holy and sinless as Jesus Christ, and as long as I remain abiding in him and his seed remains in me, it will be like that. Here it is.

1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And that same book of 1John explains that when it is referring of never commiting sin, it is not talking about our own resume. See it.

1 Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The way we are kept from sinning in God's book when we become Christians is because he removed the law for us.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

ROM 4:15 … for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1JO 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ROM 5:13 … but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

That is how we have his resume in terms of living a sinless life (even thou we sin, in his book we have the same level of holiness as Jesus Christ).

Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

ShalomYou are still just talking about a position not something you actually possess -hold in your hand. You are counted righteous. That position was given to you. A record was not. For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to account for the deeds done in the body whether good or evil. If your record says you are sinless, that verse and others would not and could not say what they do. You don't have one record for eternity and another record for reward or loss of reward. You have one record of deeds and salvation is a gift. To be counted righteous is a gift -Rom 5:17-18.

MoreMercy
Oct 30th 2010, 01:56 AM
I agree with this, but none of it says we have been given anything other than a position of righteous.
Ok, now I am starting to think our points are issues of vocabulary more than ideology issues.

Its your turn to do the explaining.

a position of righteous
I happen to think my explanations are adequate and accurate.


Father bless.

percho
Oct 30th 2010, 02:26 AM
Butch5 For the sake of time and space lets look at one or two. They are all about the same. Probably are the same.

2 Corinthians 13:5 ( KJV )
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Are the two the same color the same thing? I say yes. How did this come about. There was a promise made to Abraham and his one seed the Word made flesh Christ. When did the Word made flesh receive this promise? Was he born of Mary his mother with it? What is the promise? Is it not what is stated in Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Actually the should be ahead of faith. I agree with you of could be from but I don't think it could be in as the NIV and others have it. Of or from implies it comes from somewhere other than within a human. Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Because of the faithfulness of God to a promise made the one seed received the promise giving it to us which puts Christ in us because his faith is also part of the gift. It makes us heirs of God and a joint heir of Christ.

Galatians 3:22-23 ( KJV )
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Now I could be wrong. Would not be the first time. But I believe that saving (do not really like to put it that way) faith is also a gift of God and not something that wells up in us.

Sirus
Oct 30th 2010, 02:49 AM
I think you overlooked a few key facts. One, Abraham obeyed God from the very beginning before he was ever counted righteous. God told Abraham to leave the land he dwelt in and he did. This act of obedience came before his being counted righteous, so I don't think there is any grounds for your statement that Abraham was justified by belief only. Do you think if Abraham had said no, I'm not leaving the land that he would have been considered righteous, even if he believed God?Didn't overlook it. There's a reason God said "fear not" and Abraham questioned his reward, having no seed -Gen 15:1-4.


I also believe James whole argument is that one is not justified by simply believing.I agree. James is talking to those that have had respect of persons and have despised the poor. Context. His argument is not faith only without works of the flesh to receive the gift of righteousness, because these individuals claim to believe, have had the opportunity to perfect their faith, and have failed to do so.


Two, James makes it a point to mention that the Scripture was fulfilled that said Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. James specifically says this was when Abraham offered Isaac, which seems to suggest that his being considered righteous here has more significance. I believe this is born out by the fact that upon this act of obedience God goes from giving Abraham a promise to swearing an oath to him. Once God swore that oath it was set in stone. No matter what Abraham did from that point it was not going to change that oath. This was more than simply a promise and it was based on Abraham's obedience to God's command.

You said Abraham was considered righteous based sole on his belief in what God said.Doesn't change the fact God said he was righteous by belief only. James is simply pointing out the same faith, in the same promise, in both accounts. James' "by works" is equivalent to Paul's "by faith" -just shall live by faith -we walk by faith, not by sight -faith is evidence. So James by works is works by faith. God told Abraham to sacrifice the promise. Abraham knew God would raise the promise from the dead because God cannot lie. Abraham’s offering of Isaac was not just an act of obedience, but an act of faith. It was in Isaac Abraham's seed should be called. Abraham believed Isaac, born of him and Sarah miraculously by God as promised, was the promised son. We will return from the mountain. Isaac, God will provide a sacrifice.


I'm curious what you base that conclusion on.

Are you basing it solely on the fact that the passage doesn't mention any works?It says it very plainly. I don't have any scriptural reason to inject anything into to it scripture does not inject, in order to justify a belief in salvation by works.


It is obvious by this time that Abraham has been obedient to God's commands, don't you think that God is taking that into account?Again, not for counting him righteous, no I don't -Gen 15:1-3, 15:6, 22:12.


Suppose we used that line of reasoning on another passage. Consider Pharaoh, by the end of the plagues that God brought against Egypt don't you think that when Moses said to Pharaoh, God said, that Pharaoh believed what God said? I mean I think by the end Pharaoh was believing what God said, surely we wouldn't consider him righteous because he believe God.You don't need to go to another, and there's no comparison with Pharaoh in the least. Jas 2:19 is not about a special kind of faith called 'saving faith'.



Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Abraham had the opportunity to perfect faith. What if he didn't have that opportunity? If he was pursued by his enemies (and the Lord was not his shield) and killed him the next day. According to the text, he would have died righteous just as he was in offering the promise by faith, simply because he believed God, that he would have a son and be the father of a great nation.

Sirus
Oct 30th 2010, 02:55 AM
Ok, now I am starting to think our points are issues of vocabulary more than ideology issues.

Its your turn to do the explaining.

I happen to think my explanations are adequate and accurate.

Father bless.What's to explain? I am not righteous, but I am counted righteous. That's not something I am, that is somthing I am called, or counted as. That's a position. If I am righteous in possession, why do I still sin?

MoreMercy
Oct 30th 2010, 03:46 AM
What's to explain? I am not righteous, but I am counted righteous. That's not something I am, that is somthing I am called, or counted as. That's a position. If I am righteous in possession, why do I still sin?

Exactly, those are the same terms I have been using in my explanations: Imputed, imparted, accounted....
That is why I do not understand your replies such as this:

You are still just talking about a position not something you actually possess -hold in your hand. You are counted righteous. That position was given to you. A record was not. For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to account for the deeds done in the body whether good or evil. If your record says you are sinless, that verse and others would not and could not say what they do. You don't have one record for eternity and another record for reward or loss of reward. You have one record of deeds and salvation is a gift. To be counted righteous is a gift -Rom 5:17-18.


Or are you reffering to this post of mine directed at Butch5 ?


He may be, my point it that he is speaking for himself, not for all of mankind, likewise, Isaiah is speaking for Israel not all of mankind. However, Paul says he has suffered the loss of all things, I don't think he lost the good deeds he had done in his life. I think he is referring to things like the position he had among the Pharisees, remember he was Pharisee of the Pharisees. Apparently he had quite a bit of pull and authority. He lost all of that when he began to serve Christ. He may also have lost material things such as a home or other things. As A Pharisee he probably had a rather well to do life and when he became a Christian all of that would have been lost.Amen !
I do see what you mean, and agree.

But for the benefit of some of the readers here about deeds/works because it does somewhat relate to the topic of imputed righteousness:

I know Paul knew this but does not speak to it that I know of.
I am wondering, that if I meet the mark and Christ recognizes me before the Father on that Great Day.
Then I will be rewarded for my deeds/works, as opposed to judged by my deeds/works if I am not recognized by Christ before the Father on that Great Day.
And, if rewarded and not judged by my deeds/works then I will be given and wearing a white as snow robe, and I hope be given a crown too, but I remember reading and hearing that those with said crowns will offer those crowns at Christ feet.

What are your thoughts on this...
Is the reward for the deeds/works of the ones Christ recognized before the Father on that Great Day: is the reward the "crown" or the "robe" ?


Father bless.
Because if you are, then this quote is from a different line of discussion than you and I have been in on this thread, so I can see why you are asking the question or confused as to my position of who's righteousness we wear in the eyes of our Father.
I thought your question comes out of context from our discussion because I thought I made it abundantly clear that I know who's righteousness we are imputed, accounted..... but you seemed to keep asking the same question four or five different ways, honestly it was getting exhausting communicating the same thing over and over to you, so forgive me if that showed in my replies friend.

Father bless.

Sirus
Oct 30th 2010, 04:35 AM
Exactly, those are the same terms I have been using in my explanations: Imputed, imparted, accounted....
That is why I do not understand your replies such as this:



Or are you reffering to this post of mine directed at Butch5 ?

Because if you are, then this quote is from a different line of discussion than you and I have been in on this thread, so I can see why you are asking the question or confused as to my position of who's righteousness we wear in the eyes of our Father.
I thought your question comes out of context from our discussion because I thought I made it abundantly clear that I know who's righteousness we are imputed, accounted..... but you seemed to keep asking the same question four or five different ways, honestly it was getting exhausting communicating the same thing over and over to you, so forgive me if that showed in my replies friend.

Father bless.No. My contention is with the idea that we are given a righteous record that has been lived out on earth. Namely Jesus' record he lived on earth. That Jesus has been given my record and He has given me His record. You jumped in after I said this
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/216541-Are-we-really-imputed-with-righteousness?p=2538524#post2538524
and said this
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/216541-Are-we-really-imputed-with-righteousness?p=2538528#post2538528
So it seemed to me you believe we are given Jesus' "same" record. If not, I guess we've misunderstood each other.

MoreMercy
Oct 30th 2010, 04:49 AM
No. My contention is with the idea that we are given a righteous record that has been lived out on earth. Namely Jesus' record he lived on earth. That Jesus has been given my record and He has given me His record. You jumped in after I said this
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/216541-Are-we-really-imputed-with-righteousness?p=2538524#post2538524
and said this
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/216541-Are-we-really-imputed-with-righteousness?p=2538528#post2538528
So it seemed to me you believe we are given Jesus' "same" record. If not, I guess we've misunderstood each other.
:hmm: Uh'mmm...

Ok, now I am starting to think our points are issues of vocabulary more than ideology issues.

I believe we if we endure to the end, will be accounted Christ's righteousness by Father, to be restored to eternal fellowship with Him, through His sacrifice for that purpose of restoration.
I have tried explaining that to you over five times now on this thread, several different ways. If you disagree that is fine by me...

If I have any righteousness of myself at all, then I believe it would be seen by my Father as a pile of filthy, stinking, diseased soak, abominable pile of used toilet paper my friend !


Father bless.

ClayInHisHands
Oct 30th 2010, 05:06 AM
pile of filthy, stinking, diseased soak, abominable pile of used toilet paper my friend !


Oh come on now, you can come up with more than that. :D

MoreMercy
Oct 30th 2010, 05:10 AM
Oh come on now, you can come up with more than that. :D

:blush:......................

Sirus
Oct 30th 2010, 06:28 AM
I believe we if we endure to the end, will be accounted Christ's righteousness by Father,That's what I thought you believed.


If you disagree that is fine by me...I do

Servant89
Oct 30th 2010, 12:47 PM
You are still just talking about a position not something you actually possess -hold in your hand. You are counted righteous. That position was given to you. A record was not. For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to account for the deeds done in the body whether good or evil. If your record says you are sinless, that verse and others would not and could not say what they do. You don't have one record for eternity and another record for reward or loss of reward. You have one record of deeds and salvation is a gift. To be counted righteous is a gift -Rom 5:17-18.

True!!! But there are good news!!!

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Amen, I'll take that.

Shalom

Sirus
Oct 30th 2010, 03:21 PM
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: You keep posting this verse and in past posts putting in bold....
"that righteousness might be imputed unto them also"
It says
"that he might be the father of all them that believe"
This is showing us the same that happened to Abraham happens to us. So what does it say happened to Abraham?


Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
........
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Then it tells us what our faith, that is counted for righteousness means. Here is the definition of being counted righteous. It is being forgiven and not imputed with our sin.


Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
There is 'no thing' counted to us here. We are forgiven and our sin is not counted. Which is what Rom 8:1 says. So when you read......


Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
How do you think it is 'a thing' or 'His record'? This says righteousness -sinless position, obtained through the law cannot save but righteousness -sinless position, through believing on Jesus does.

Butch5
Oct 30th 2010, 07:30 PM
Didn't overlook it. There's a reason God said "fear not" and Abraham questioned his reward, having no seed -Gen 15:1-4.

How then can you say it is strictly based on belief when obedience came before his being counted righteous?


I agree. James is talking to those that have had respect of persons and have despised the poor. Context. His argument is not faith only without works of the flesh to receive the gift of righteousness, because these individuals claim to believe, have had the opportunity to perfect their faith, and have failed to do so.

Sorry, I don’t follow you here. James says that because they had no works their faith was dead and unable to save. James says that in faith must have works in order to save.


Doesn't change the fact God said he was righteous by belief only. James is simply pointing out the same faith, in the same promise, in both accounts. James' "by works" is equivalent to Paul's "by faith" -just shall live by faith -we walk by faith, not by sight -faith is evidence. So James by works is works by faith. God told Abraham to sacrifice the promise. Abraham knew God would raise the promise from the dead because God cannot lie. Abraham’s offering of Isaac was not just an act of obedience, but an act of faith. It was in Isaac Abraham's seed should be called. Abraham believed Isaac, born of him and Sarah miraculously by God as promised, was the promised son. We will return from the mountain. Isaac, God will provide a sacrifice.


Doesn't change the fact God said he was righteous by belief only.

Again, where is the evidence to support this? You claim it is a fact but have not supplied the evidence. Your argument is based on silence.

You said we need to look at the context, let’s. In Paul’s argument the context is justification via faith or the works of the Mosaic Law, he does not deal with obedience in this argument. He looks at the Law and the promise made to Abraham and concludes that Abraham was justified by faith and not the works of the Mosaic Law. The only mention of obedience is in Abraham’s believing God. In James’ argument the context is the does faith without works of obedience save. James looks at the same passage as Paul did and concludes that Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac and says that the Scripture was fulfilled at this is time. As I pointed out this is also the point where God goes from giving Abraham a promise to swearing an oath to him.

Given the title of the thread, is obedience necessary, we have to conclude that Paul’s argument in Romans 4 does not address the issue, simply because his argument is not dealing with obedience but is contrasting faith with the works of the Mosaic Law. James’ argument on the other hand deals directly with the issue of obedience.

Also, you didn’t answer my question. If Abraham had said he believed God, but did not leave the land, do you think he would still have been considered righteous?

Another question, is repentance necessary for one to be considered justified?


It says it very plainly. I don't have any scriptural reason to inject anything into to it scripture does not inject, in order to justify a belief in salvation by works.

One doesn’t have to inject anything; we see that Abraham was already obedient by this point. As one who looks at the entirety of Scripture your conclusion doesn’t follow, just because one part of the process may not be mentioned in a passage does not mean it is not necessary. For instance, Paul writes,

Romans 8:24 ( KJV )
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Faith is not mentioned here, do I surmise that it is not necessary to be saved? What about repentance? It also is not mentioned, do we negate its necessity also? What about calling on the name of the Lord?

No, we take all of these passages and combine them to form a doctrine of salvation. Just because Paul does not mention works of obedience does not necessitate that Abraham was justified without them. We must take Paul words and combine them with the words of Moses and James to form a doctrine of justification. Paul says Abraham was justified by faith apart from the works of the Mosaic Law, so we know the Mosaic Law is not necessary. James says that works of obedience are necessary, so we must add these to the words of Paul.

Again, not for counting him righteous, no I don't -Gen 15:1-3, 15:6, 22:12.

Are you serious? So, then would you say anyone who believes God, is justified, no matter what else they do? If one doesn’t repent they are still justified if they believe what God said is true?


You don't need to go to another, and there's no comparison with Pharaoh in the least. Jas 2:19 is not about a special kind of faith called 'saving faith'.

I didn’t say there was any kind of special faith. Saving faith is simply faith that is alive, as James says without works faith is dead.

There is a comparison with Pharaoh, don't you think he believed what God said by the end of those plagues? Wouldn't that mean he was justified?


Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Abraham had the opportunity to perfect faith. What if he didn't have that opportunity? If he was pursued by his enemies (and the Lord was not his shield) and killed him the next day. According to the text, he would have died righteous just as he was in offering the promise by faith, simply because he believed God, that he would have a son and be the father of a great nation.

So, simply believing that God would give him a son and make him a great nation is the basis of his receiving eternal life?

So, then, if anyone believes God about anything will they receive eternal life?

Then we have the issue of the permanence of Justification. Just because Abraham was counted righteous at one time does not necessitate that he would continue to be considered righteous. That requires continued belief and obedience.

Ezekiel 18:24 ( KJV )
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

I believe that is the reason James makes the point, that when Abraham obeyed the Scripture was fulfilled, because it was at this point that God swore the oath, setting the promise in stone.

Sirus
Oct 30th 2010, 10:28 PM
How then can you say it is strictly based on belief when obedience came before his being counted righteous?You tell me why. Hebrews 11 makes it clear it was by faith he obeyed.


Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Sorry, I don’t follow you here. James says that because they had no works their faith was dead and unable to save. James says that in faith must have works in order to save.James is not addressing the state of an individual before they are given the opportunity to perfect their faith. He's addressing those that already had the opportunity so their state before the opportunity is irrelevant to him.


Again, where is the evidence to support this? You claim it is a fact but have not supplied the evidence. Your argument is based on silence.Every passage supports this. Abraham never obeyed w/o faith. Faith always comes first. ALL scripture supports this. Hebrews 11 makes it clear it was by faith he obeyed. If he didn't have faith he would not have obeyed. Faith is the reason he obeyed. How many different ways should I say the same thing?


You said we need to look at the context, let’s. In Paul’s argument the context is justification via faith or the works of the Mosaic Law, he does not deal with obedience in this argument.This is absolutely absurd. He does, you just don't know what context is.


Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

He looks at the Law and the promise made to Abraham and concludes that Abraham was justified by faith and not the works of the Mosaic Law.Actually, his argument is that Abraham obeyed, therefore had faith. Israel trusted in the Law, not God.


The only mention of obedience is in Abraham’s believing God.Correct!


Given the title of the thread, is obedience necessaryThat thread was two weeks ago.


[is obedience necessary] we have to conclude that Paul’s argument in Romans 4 does not address the issue, simply because his argument is not dealing with obedienceSure it does.


Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

but is contrasting faith with the works of the Mosaic LawNo. Like James it is contrasting having faith in God or not.


In James’ argument the context is the does faith without works of obedience save.I wholeheartedly disagree. His argument is faith in God produces works. If you don't have works you don't have faith. you may believe there is one God, but bid deal, the devils believe that. Belief that there is one God [judgment] doesn't guarantee obedience. Believing in that one God does.


James looks at the same passage as Paul did and concludes that Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac and says that the Scripture was fulfilled at this is time.Again, James is not talking about initial belief as Paul does, but both Paul and James agree there is a walk the believer will walk, if he really trusts God.


As I pointed out this is also the point where God goes from giving Abraham a promise to swearing an oath to him.Then you need to re-read chapter 15 when God passed between the sacrifice and actually made the covenant and swore by Himself.


Also, you didn’t answer my question. If Abraham had said he believed God, but did not leave the land, do you think he would still have been considered righteous?Are liars righteous? It's a baseless question.


Another question, is repentance necessary for one to be considered justified?A change of mind? Sure! However, that's not what you mean by repentance is it? If so, I can't help you if you have an unbiblical understanding of repentance.

I'll have to address the rest later.

MoreMercy
Oct 30th 2010, 11:04 PM
We/man cannot keep what Father requires for obedience in His spoken word. We fail at righteousness.

Christ can, did and does keep that obedience by the works of His "faith" in Father's spoken word.
Christ is righteous by those works of faith and obedience to Father's spoken word. Hence Father's acceptable sacrifice to cover our sins.

Our/man's faith in our savior Christ's faith and obedience to Father's spoken word.
That faith of ours in Christ, is what imputes Christ's righteousness to us by Father.


Father bless.

Servant89
Oct 31st 2010, 12:31 AM
How do you think it is 'a thing' or 'His record'? This says righteousness -sinless position, obtained through the law cannot save but righteousness -sinless position, through believing on Jesus does.

When someone asks the question, name the sins that Jesus is guilty of and must pay by going to hell; the answer is zero, nothing, nada, none, not one.

When someone asks the question, name the sins that Servant89 is guilty of and must pay by going to hell; the answer coming back will be zero, nothing, nada, none, not one.

1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Jn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

When someone asks the question, did Jesus fulfilled the law? The answer back is YES.

When someone asks the question, did Servant89 fulfilled the law? The answer back is YES, not the actual letter of the law, but the impartation given to those that do business in accordance to the NT law of love (empowered by the HS power in us).

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

That is how we have been imputted the righteousness of Christ. Not his actual actions, but the bottom line of his resume. But that is my opinion, you should base doctrine on the Word of God alone.

Shalom

Butch5
Oct 31st 2010, 01:07 AM
You tell me why. Hebrews 11 makes it clear it was by faith he obeyed.


Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

The issue isn't why Abraham believed, it is was he counted righteous without obedience.




James is not addressing the state of an individual before they are given the opportunity to perfect their faith. He's addressing those that already had the opportunity so their state before the opportunity is irrelevant to him.

Neither are Paul or Moses addressing an individual before they are given the opportunity to perfect their faith. As I said Abraham had already obeyed God or he wouldn't have been there.


Every passage supports this. Abraham never obeyed w/o faith. Faith always comes first. ALL scripture supports this. Hebrews 11 makes it clear it was by faith he obeyed. If he didn't have faith he would not have obeyed. Faith is the reason he obeyed. How many different ways should I say the same thing?

I never said belief didn't come first, however we are discussing which came first. The issue is whether or not Abraham was justified without obedience.


This is absolutely absurd. He does, you just don't know what context is.


Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Actually, his argument is that Abraham obeyed, therefore had faith. Israel trusted in the Law, not God.

OK, you've just proven my point. If you say that Paul is talking about obedience in this passages then faith contains obedience, therefore if Abraham was justified by faith, that faith contained obedience. Which is what James says.



That thread was two weeks ago.

sorry, I was thinking of the wrong thread.


Sure it does.


Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

It does, I was thinking of the wrong thread.


No. Like James it is contrasting having faith in God or not.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

James 2:18 ( KJV )
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.


I wholeheartedly disagree. His argument is faith in God produces works. If you don't have works you don't have faith. you may believe there is one God, but bid deal, the devils believe that. Belief that there is one God [judgment] doesn't guarantee obedience. Believing in that one God does.

Not so, He says if faith does not have works it is dead. If faith is dead it cannot produce works, it cannot produce anything. In order for faith to produce anything it must have works, he makes this abundantly clear.

James 2:22 ( KJV )
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Faith was made complete by works, and incomplete faith cannot produce anything, it cannot save, it is dead. It must have works in order to be a faith that can produce.
Again, James is not talking about initial belief as Paul does, but both Paul and James agree there is a walk the believer will walk, if he really trusts God.


Then you need to re-read chapter 15 when God passed between the sacrifice and actually made the covenant and swore by Himself.

I didn't see anything in chapter 15 about God swearing an oath.


Are liars righteous? It's a baseless question.

It's not a baseless question, I just don't think you want to answer it. Abraham could have believed every word that God said and said, no thanks. Do you think he would have been counted righteous?


A change of mind? Sure! However, that's not what you mean by repentance is it? If so, I can't help you if you have an unbiblical understanding of repentance.

Even if we accept your definition of repentance, a change of mind, it still require and act of obedience on ones part before they can be considered justified, therefore it cannot be by belief alone. God says repent, that is a command and your repenting is an act of obedience.

Sirus
Oct 31st 2010, 03:59 AM
One doesn’t have to inject anything; we see that Abraham was already obedient by this point.yes, obedient by faith, so why wasn't he counted righteous here?


As one who looks at the entirety of Scripture your conclusion doesn’t follow,It doesn't? I said it's by faith and scripture says he was obedient because of faith. What did I say that is wrong?


just because one part of the process may not be mentioned in a passage does not mean it is not necessary.That's what I am saying.


Just because Paul does not mention works of obedience does not necessitate that Abraham was justified without them.but he did mention Abraham's walk of faith, hope, and obedience.


Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
.........
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

We must take Paul words and combine them with the words of Moses and James to form a doctrine of justification.That's what I have done.


Paul says Abraham was justified by faith apart from the works of the Mosaic LawMany that did the works of the law were justified by faith. Paul is not ignoring obedience. He's emphasizing faith.


James says that works of obedience are necessaryNo, he says faith is necessary. Faith is not a legitimate claim w/o proof. Faith w/o proof is not faith.


so we must add these to the words of Paul.There's no reason to add to Paul. We just need to understand Paul. It's there already. There is a walk.....the just shall live by faith, having [biblical] patience of hope. Patience is enduring faith.
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
.....
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Are you serious?Sure. I don't know why Abraham previously obeyed by faith but it was not said and is not recorded that he was counted righteous. Was he or not? All I know is it is not recorded until later. Makes no sense to me. Do you know why? I mean, by faith he obeyed (chapter 12) -it's not said that he was righteous. Later, he just believed (chapter 15) -it is said he was righteous. Still later, by faith he continued to obeyed (chapter 22) -it's not said he was righteous. Yet, the last is when you expect me to believe he was actually considered righteous when chapter 22 says nothing about Abraham's condition or state, just that God would bless him and fulfill his previous promise and covenant made in chapters 12 and 15.


So, then would you say anyone who believes God, is justified, no matter what else they do?Why would anyone? Funny though, because earlier you said after God made an oath it didn't matter what Abraham did after that. hmmm....


If one doesn’t repent they are still justified if they believe what God said is true?One that has not repented is never justified to begin with.


There is a comparison with Pharaoh, don't you think he believed what God said by the end of those plagues? Wouldn't that mean he was justified?Obviously not. He chased the children of Israel into the Red Sea, eh? If he believed, that would have been the last thing he'd have done.


So, simply believing that God would give him a son and make him a great nation is the basis of his receiving eternal life?That is what it says.


So, then, if anyone believes God about anything will they receive eternal life?Noah built a big boat -Heb 11:7.


Then we have the issue of the permanence of Justification. Just because Abraham was counted righteous at one time does not necessitate that he would continue to be considered righteous. That requires continued belief and obedience.That's kinda the point of Hebrews 11 isn't it?


I believe that is the reason James makes the point, that when Abraham obeyed the Scripture was fulfilled, because it was at this point that God swore the oath, setting the promise in stone.Certainly Abraham continued to have faith in God for the same promise first given in chapter 12. He continued to have faith for about 25 years before Isaac was born then Isaac was about 14 or so in chapter 22? Almost 40 years. Did his faith and obedience mean nothing until ch 22? God's unconditional covenant in chapter 15 when He called Abraham righteous meant nothing either? Is that really what James 2 and Hebrews 6 is saying? That we really aren't saved until we reach that certain special moment of ....call it whatever, even though we have faith and obedience for 40 years?

Sirus
Oct 31st 2010, 05:45 PM
The issue isn't why Abraham believed, it is was he counted righteous without obedience.Stop ignoring why he obeyed -by faith.


Neither are Paul or Moses addressing an individual before they are given the opportunity to perfect their faith. As I said Abraham had already obeyed God or he wouldn't have been there.Paul speaks in terms of faith as a walk. That one believes the gospel and continues to believe the gospel. James is talking to those that claim to believe but have had respect of persons and despised the poor.


I never said belief didn't come first, however we are discussing which came first. The issue is whether or not Abraham was justified without obedience.But we are. Why was Abraham obedient?


OK, you've just proven my point. If you say that Paul is talking about obedience in this passages then faith contains obedience, therefore if Abraham was justified by faith, that faith contained obedience. Which is what James says.Right.


I don't know how you came to that conclusion.But you just agreed those that have faith have obedience.


James 2:18 ( KJV )
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.This doesn't mean all that claim to have faith have it. It's like this

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

This doesn't mean all that claim to have faith have it.

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Those judged by the law of liberty speak faith and perfect faith by works. They are hears and doers.

Jas 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Not so, He says if faith does not have works it is dead. If faith is dead it cannot produce works, it cannot produce anything.Can faith be dead? Of course not. This means you don't have faith, not that trust in God is dead.


In order for faith to produce anything it must have worksFaith produces works. You just said as much
"faith contains obedience, therefore if Abraham was justified by faith, that faith contained obedience. Which is what James says"

James 2:22 ( KJV )
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? This doesn't mean they are completely separate. We know Abraham obeyed because he had faith.


Faith was made complete by works, and incomplete faith cannot produce anything, it cannot save, it is dead.Again, trust in God that is dead is not trust in God at all.


I didn't see anything in chapter 15 about God swearing an oath.Chapter 22 says 'by myself I have sworn'. This was done in chapter 15. Throughout scripture this covenant is sighted as the reason for God's faithfulness for this reason.


It's not a baseless question, I just don't think you want to answer it. Abraham could have believed every word that God said and said, no thanks.I did and do again. Abraham could not have believed what God said and then said no thanks to what God said. People can believe and obey, then later decide to stop believing and then stop obeying.


Even if we accept your definition of repentance, a change of mind, it still require and act of obedience on ones part before they can be considered justified, therefore it cannot be by belief alone. God says repent, that is a command and your repenting is an act of obedience.Yes, changing your mind is obeying, but it is not an act.

Butch5
Nov 1st 2010, 12:26 AM
yes, obedient by faith, so why wasn't he counted righteous here?

How do you know he wasn't. Just because it is not stated does not mean God didn't consider him righteous.



It doesn't? I said it's by faith and scripture says he was obedient because of faith. What did I say that is wrong?

What you're saying is that he was considered righteous without obedience.


That's what I am saying.

No it's not, you said Abraham was counted righteous strictly on belief.


but he did mention Abraham's walk of faith, hope, and obedience.
[INDENT][INDENT]Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
.........
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

From what you've said that falls under faith, belief.


That's what I have done.

Then how do you come to a conclusion that is counter to James?



No, he says faith is necessary. Faith is not a legitimate claim w/o proof. Faith w/o proof is not faith.

He is not saying works are proof of faith, he is saying that works are a part of a living faith. He acknowledges that there are those who faith is dead, they have belief without works. James on the other hand shows that his faith is alive by works.

James has left no way around this issue. He says clearly that faith and works work together to produce a living faith. Faith that does not have works cannot produce works, therefore works are not a product of faith they are a part of it. He also says the Abraham was justified by his works. Paul says Abraham was justified by faith and James says Abraham was justified by works, therefore we must conclude that Abraham was justified by faith and works together.



There's no reason to add to Paul. We just need to understand Paul. It's there already. There is a walk.....the just shall live by faith, having [biblical] patience of hope. Patience is enduring faith.[INDENT]Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
.....
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Yes, we need to put the words of Jesus and all of the apostles together to form doctrine.


Sure. I don't know why Abraham previously obeyed by faith but it was not said and is not recorded that he was counted righteous. Was he or not? All I know is it is not recorded until later. Makes no sense to me. Do you know why? I mean, by faith he obeyed (chapter 12) -it's not said that he was righteous. Later, he just believed (chapter 15) -it is said he was righteous. Still later, by faith he continued to obeyed (chapter 22) -it's not said he was righteous. Yet, the last is when you expect me to believe he was actually considered righteous when chapter 22 says nothing about Abraham's condition or state, just that God would bless him and fulfill his previous promise and covenant made in chapters 12 and 15.

Just because it is not recorded we cannot assume that he was not considered righteous before chapter 15. However, we must take all of the Scriptures as I said, no it is not recorded in chapter 22 that Abraham was righteous, but it is recorded in James chapter 2 that at this point Abraham was counted righteous.James makes a point that Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac and the Scripture was fulfilled, and he quote the Scripture in Genesis 15, 'Abraham believed God'.

James 2:23 ( KJV )
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.




Why would anyone? Funny though, because earlier you said after God made an oath it didn't matter what Abraham did after that. hmmm....

Yes, when God swore the oath to Abraham it was unconditional. God placed no conditions upon it.


One that has not repented is never justified to begin with.

OK, so if one is not obedient they cannot be justified correct?


That is what it says.

No, that's not what it says. It says he was counted righteous. The act of believing God was credited as being righteous. It doesn't mean he received eternal life. One can be considered righteous and then later can be considered unrighteous.




Noah built a big boat -Heb 11:7.

building the boat is not why he was righteous, it was because he obeyed God, If God had not told him to build the boat and he had built one anyway that would not have made him righteous.


That's kinda the point of Hebrews 11 isn't it?

That's my point. Being considered righteous one time in Genesis 15 did not mean he Abraham would remain righteous for eternity, it was not a one time deal.


Certainly Abraham continued to have faith in God for the same promise first given in chapter 12. He continued to have faith for about 25 years before Isaac was born then Isaac was about 14 or so in chapter 22? Almost 40 years. Did his faith and obedience mean nothing until ch 22? God's unconditional covenant in chapter 15 when He called Abraham righteous meant nothing either? Is that really what James 2 and Hebrews 6 is saying? That we really aren't saved until we reach that certain special moment of ....call it whatever, even though we have faith and obedience for 40 years?

That's not what I said. James makes the point that the oath was sworn when Abraham acted out of Obedience and God himself says that he swore the oath because Abraham obeyed, him.

Butch5
Nov 1st 2010, 12:57 AM
Stop ignoring why he obeyed -by faith.

I'm going to bite. The issue is whether or not Abraham was justified solely on belief. The reason for his obedience has no bearing on that.


Paul speaks in terms of faith as a walk. That one believes the gospel and continues to believe the gospel. James is talking to those that claim to believe but have had respect of persons and despised the poor.

Neither are Paul or Moses addressing an individual before they are given the opportunity to perfect their faith. As I said Abraham had already obeyed God or he wouldn't have been there.



But we are. Why was Abraham obedient?

Again, I'm not going to bite.

I never said belief didn't come first, however we are discussing which came first. The issue is whether or not Abraham was justified without obedience.

The reason for his obedience has no bearing on the issue.


Right.

OK, then Abraham was not justified on belief alone.


But you just agreed those that have faith have obedience.

James is not contrasting those who have faith in God and those who don't, he is contrasting those who have faith with and without works.



This doesn't mean all that claim to have faith have it. It's like this

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

This doesn't mean all that claim to have faith have it.

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Those judged by the law of liberty speak faith and perfect faith by works. They are hears and doers.

Jas 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

His whole point being the necessity of works.



Can faith be dead? Of course not. This means you don't have faith, not that trust in God is dead.

Well, you've just completely contradicted James, he says faith without works is dead, it would appear that faith can be dead.



Faith produces works. You just said as much
"faith contains obedience, therefore if Abraham was justified by faith, that faith contained obedience. Which is what James says"

No, friend, I did not say that. My whole argument has been the opposite. I agree with James, if there are no works faith is dead, therefore works are "Part Of" "NOT" the product of faith. An engine is a part of a car not a product of it. If you have faith (Belief) and you do not have works that belief is not sufficient to be justified.



This doesn't mean they are completely separate. We know Abraham obeyed because he had faith.

He obeyed because he believed, however, that belief alone did not get him justified.


Again, trust in God that is dead is not trust in God at all.

Trust in God? I thought it was believing what God said. They are two very different things. I can believe what some says without trusting in them. James is speaking of one who says he believes what God says yet does not do the things that Christ said to do.


Chapter 22 says 'by myself I have sworn'. This was done in chapter 15. Throughout scripture this covenant is sighted as the reason for God's faithfulness for this reason.

No it wasn't. it was done in chapter 22, God said because you have done this thing.


Genesis 22:16 ( KJV )
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:



I did and do again. Abraham could not have believed what God said and then said no thanks to what God said. People can believe and obey, then later decide to stop believing and then stop obeying.

How can you say this?


Abraham could not have believed what God said and then said no thanks to what God said.


Yes, changing your mind is obeying, but it is not an act.

I'm pretty much at a loss for words here. Changing your mind is obeying but it is not an act. Even if I agreed, are you not still obeying God? Doesn't that mean that one must be obedient before they are justified? If so, doesn't that mean that one cannot be justified by belief alone?

4Gsake
Nov 1st 2010, 02:25 AM
Hi Clay;
Please forgive my bluntness especially while been new in here.

Why is it that we Christians always seem to be over burden with guilt and, think we must be perfect in order to please the Lord and/or be saved by him.

Even we,as humans, would not hesitate to forgive and incourage our children should they come to us and say: Mom/Dad, please forgive me as I have made a mistake, out of love for them we will take the time to listen and to guide them so they may not repeat the mistake.

Jesus Christ come in the flesh in order to also show us He understand how difficult it is to be in the flesh and choosed to make the last sacrifice by dyeing on the cross, He understand our human nature much more than we think He does.

Love your neighbor as you love your self seem to be the additional command he added to the Law knowing very well it would be impossible for us, as human, to follow the Law how ever, by taking is advice and love our neighbor as we love our selves than, it is impossible for us to intentionally do wrong to one another therefore, pleasing God our Father.

One of the statements Jesus made before passing on the Cross was: " FATHER, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME ", if this does not imply He knows what it mean to be human, I do not know what else does.

We, Christians, seem to be very much willing to take one verse of the Bible here and there and go ahead use it to make our selves feel guilty, I am sure God does not want us to do so.

In my humble opinion, all that God want us to do is, go to Him with all our problems and sorrows and ask Him: " Dad help me I have made a mistake " God would not hesitate one millisecond to help, He would love to hear that especially if you say Dad, He would be thrilled.

Christians should stop been afraid of God, He send His Son Jesus Christ to die for them so they may be saved, that is how much He love us, what else does He need to do for us that we finally understand He really is our Father and Jesus our brother.

By the way, God/Jesus have a great sense of humor also, there is nothing they enjoy more than to spend time with each one of us and laugh smile and be happy, try it and you be surprised.

God is our Dad/Mom for He said so, please don't forget that.

Sirus
Nov 1st 2010, 05:45 AM
How do you know he wasn't. Just because it is not stated does not mean God didn't consider him righteous.Other than what Scripture says I don't. Since you say we are only righteous after faith and works, and both existed in chapter 12, I asked you why.


What you're saying is that he was considered righteous without obedience.That is what it says in chapter 15, yes.


No it's not, you said Abraham was counted righteous strictly on belief.In chapter 15 he was, but it was the same promise as chapter 12 when he believed and obeyed. Yet, he questioned and asked for proof in chapter 15, believed only, and God then called him righteous for believing only. That's what is says. Why do you ask me to believe otherwise?


Then how do you come to a conclusion that is counter to James?I haven't. I have come to a different conclusion than you.


He is not saying works are proof of faith, he is saying that works are a part of a living faith.Living faith? Where's that at? Oh, that's right, the opposite of 'dead faith'.....gotcha.


He acknowledges that there are those who faith is dead, they have belief without works.According to scripture, faith is evidence. No evidence? No faith.


He says clearly that faith and works work together to produce a living faith.living faith?


Faith that does not have works cannot produce worksThis gets crazier with every post.


He also says the Abraham was justified by his worksWhich means, as Paul says, justified by faith. Same thing. If it's not we have a contradiction.


Paul says Abraham was justified by faith and James says Abraham was justified by works, therefore we must conclude that Abraham was justified by faith and works together.Like I said, this gets crazier with each post. That's not how scripture works. You can come up with all kinds of strange doctrine like that.


Yes, we need to put the words of Jesus and all of the apostles together to form doctrine.If they do not stand on their own they do not stand. If you need to fit them together you are not understanding them individually. Romans was not required reading to James' audience.


Just because it is not recorded we cannot assume that he was not considered righteous before chapter 15. However, we must take all of the Scriptures as I said, no it is not recorded in chapter 22 that Abraham was righteous, but it is recorded in James chapter 2 that at this point Abraham was counted righteous.Yes, but he was also and first counted righteous in chapter 15.


OK, so if one is not obedient they cannot be justified correct?repentance and faith is not a work


No, that's not what it says. It says he was counted righteous. The act of believing God was credited as being righteous. It doesn't mean he received eternal life.Yea, well I was wondering why you said it was eternal life, but I let it go because I figured it was a rabbit trail.


building the boat is not why he was righteous, it was because he obeyed Goddifference?


Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

That's my point. Being considered righteous one time in Genesis 15 did not mean he Abraham would remain righteous for eternity, it was not a one time deal.Pretty irrelevant point for the thread, eh? No, your point is that works justify.


The issue is whether or not Abraham was justified solely on belief. The reason for his obedience has no bearing on that.Since having faith was the reason he obeyed, I'll have to disagree.


Neither are Paul or Moses addressing an individual before they are given the opportunity to perfect their faith.You agreed Paul was earlier. I have no idea why you keep mentioning Moses. We haven't even discussed him.


OK, then Abraham was not justified on belief alone.Genesis 12, 15, Romans 4, and James 1-2 all say he was.


James is not contrasting those who have faith in God and those who don't, he is contrasting those who have faith with and without works.Same thing.


His whole point being the necessity of works.No, the point is looking into the perfect law of liberty, and continuing therein.


Well, you've just completely contradicted James, he says faith without works is dead, it would appear that faith can be dead.Is wisdom a her? Is faith a thing that it can be dead? Or does it either exists or not?


An engine is a part of a car not a product of it.The engine produces power to move the car.


Trust in God? I thought it was believing what God said. They are two very different things.I suppose you used two authors of two book to come to this conclusion? Re-read Romans 4:5. believe/faith -same.


I can believe what some says without trusting in them.we are not talking about what some man says.


No it wasn't. it was done in chapter 22, God said because you have done this thing.Wrong -I have sworn- not I swear, but what? Because you have done this what? What did God say he was going to do because of what Abraham did? Is it applicable to the discussion? No.

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:41 PM
Other than what Scripture says I don't. Since you say we are only righteous after faith and works, and both existed in chapter 12, I asked you why.

That is what it says in chapter 15, yes.

In chapter 15 he was, but it was the same promise as chapter 12 when he believed and obeyed. Yet, he questioned and asked for proof in chapter 15, believed only, and God then called him righteous for believing only. That's what is says. Why do you ask me to believe otherwise?

I haven't. I have come to a different conclusion than you.

Living faith? Where's that at? Oh, that's right, the opposite of 'dead faith'.....gotcha.

According to scripture, faith is evidence. No evidence? No faith.

living faith?

This gets crazier with every post.

Which means, as Paul says, justified by faith. Same thing. If it's not we have a contradiction.

Like I said, this gets crazier with each post. That's not how scripture works. You can come up with all kinds of strange doctrine like that.

If they do not stand on their own they do not stand. If you need to fit them together you are not understanding them individually. Romans was not required reading to James' audience.

Yes, but he was also and first counted righteous in chapter 15.

repentance and faith is not a work

Yea, well I was wondering why you said it was eternal life, but I let it go because I figured it was a rabbit trail.

difference?



Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Pretty irrelevant point for the thread, eh? No, your point is that works justify.

Since having faith was the reason he obeyed, I'll have to disagree.

You agreed Paul was earlier. I have no idea why you keep mentioning Moses. We haven't even discussed him.

Genesis 12, 15, Romans 4, and James 1-2 all say he was.

Same thing.

No, the point is looking into the perfect law of liberty, and continuing therein.

Is wisdom a her? Is faith a thing that it can be dead? Or does it either exists or not?

The engine produces power to move the car.

I suppose you used two authors of two book to come to this conclusion? Re-read Romans 4:5. believe/faith -same.

we are not talking about what some man says.

Wrong -I have sworn- not I swear, but what? Because you have done this what? What did God say he was going to do because of what Abraham did? Is it applicable to the discussion? No.

With all due respect I think I'm just going to let it end here. I really don't see that much progress will be made. If you are not even going to acknowledge what the Scriptures say,

The Holy Bible, King James Version
Genesis 22:15-18 ( KJV )
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Are you going to tell me that Abraham offered Isaac back in chapter 15 before Isaac was even born?


Genesis 15:2-6 ( KJV )
And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Sirus
Nov 4th 2010, 03:32 AM
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/216972-Justified-Scripture-Paul-and-James