PDA

View Full Version : Raising you hands during worship



Pages : [1] 2

Gypsy
Oct 26th 2010, 01:20 AM
I was taught, at the first church I attended after being saved, that this was a sign of surrender and abandoning ourselves to God. I was more than a bit uncomfortable doing so at first. Now, after moving and joining a new church home where it's not as common, I find I miss it. Only a few members of our current will, very conservativly, raise their hands to about shoulder height. I feel as though it would be considered 'over the top' or showie to do so.

I'm wondering if there is scriptural support to the practice.

tango
Oct 26th 2010, 01:43 AM
I'm not sure I'd call it necessarily a sign of surrender. Some people (myself included occasionally) raise their hands during worship or prayer as an act of worship. Some people (myself included in the past) raise their hands during worship because everybody else is doing it.

Honestly, I think this is the kind of thing that I don't see any compelling instruction for or against it so I'd say do what you are comfortable doing. If you're looking for a Biblical example of going all-out take a look at David (I'm sure you'll find many more as well as this one)

2Sa 6:14-15 NKJV Then David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was wearing a linen ephod. (15) So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting and with the sound of the trumpet.

I'll bet that in most churches dancing with all your might would have you labelled as some kind of crackpot.

amazzin
Oct 26th 2010, 01:47 AM
Not all churches tango are crackpots

TomH
Oct 26th 2010, 02:08 AM
Being raised in a small church environment and having circuit preachers coming around, the preachers seemed to rely much more on the Holy Spirit for his sermons, usually being quite busy Monday through Saturday, ministering and making a living.

It wasn't unusual for him to be led by the Spirit and speak personally to a few of the members and generally to the rest of the congregation. I'v seen your typical stoic farmer who was the strong silent type, raise his voice with an involuntary "Amen brother". Everyone who knew this man, knew the Spirit was speaking especially for this man, and the one "Amen brother" could be infectious to both the pastor and the congregation. Nothing extreme. A few raised hands, a few "Praise the Lords", but definitely a filling of the Holy Spirit during the services.

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 02:29 AM
Tango, dear, I may not be the best dancer in the world but a crackpot? Nah, not really! :lol:

Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary and praise the Lord.
Psa 28:2 Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place.
Psa 63:4 I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands.
Psa 119:48 I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees.
Lam 3:41 Let us lift up our hearts and our hands to God in heaven
1Ti 2:8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

as for dancing:
Exd 15:20 Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing.
Psa 30:11 You turned my wailing into dancing;
Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp.
Psa 150:4 praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,

GitRDunn
Oct 26th 2010, 02:35 AM
I was taught, at the first church I attended after being saved, that this was a sign of surrender and abandoning ourselves to God. I was more than a bit uncomfortable doing so at first. Now, after moving and joining a new church home where it's not as common, I find I miss it. Only a few members of our current will, very conservativly, raise their hands to about shoulder height. I feel as though it would be considered 'over the top' or showie to do so.

I'm wondering if there is scriptural support to the practice.
I have to agree with Tango on this one. I don't know of any scriptures for or against it, so I would go with what you feel comfortable with. If you are uncomfortable with it, as the first part of your post indicated, then by all means don't do it. But, if you want to do it, then go ahead. Personally, I prefer to sit and focus on the message of the sermon and don't wave my hands in the air or dance around or anything. I'm not saying it is wrong for those that do, it just isn't right for me.

moonglow
Oct 26th 2010, 02:36 AM
Tango, dear, I may not be the best dancer in the world but a crackpot? Nah, not really! :lol:

Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary and praise the Lord.
Psa 28:2 Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place.
Psa 63:4 I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands.
Psa 119:48 I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees.
Lam 3:41 Let us lift up our hearts and our hands to God in heaven
1Ti 2:8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

as for dancing:
Exd 15:20 Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing.
Psa 30:11 You turned my wailing into dancing;
Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp.
Psa 150:4 praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,

She got the verses..lol...I cheated and highlight the lifting of hands part. In our church they do this too..raise hands in worship. (well many do but certainly not most or everyone). That was hard for me to do too because I didn't attend churches that was common in. I am not big about sticking my whole arm up in the air either actually..lol.

But anyway, yea their are verses for it. :)

God bless

TomH
Oct 26th 2010, 02:39 AM
Dancing? I'd like to see a Tango in church!:hmm:;)

tango
Oct 26th 2010, 02:44 AM
Dancing? I'd like to see a Tango in church!:hmm:;)

In Salisbury Cathedral (that's Salisbury, England) they used to do contemporary worship evenings that were aimed at the younger folks who weren't interested in traditional hymns. One of them was dubbed "Rave in the Nave" and another "In-spire-ation". I attended one of them (this was many many years ago) where at one point a load of people joined up and danced the conga through the Nave. The then Bishop of Salisbury looked on and just beamed.

crossnote
Oct 26th 2010, 03:02 AM
Whatever, please keep it spontaneous and not part of the liturgy. I can just see it now 'After the Invocation and before the Sanctus everyone raise hands'.

tango
Oct 26th 2010, 03:17 AM
Whatever, please keep it spontaneous and not part of the liturgy. I can just see it now 'After the Invocation and before the Sanctus everyone raise hands'.

It conjures up images of the organised "Spontanous Show of Affection for our Dear Leader" processions that might be expected in a communist country.

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 03:26 AM
Whatever, please keep it spontaneous and not part of the liturgy. I can just see it now 'After the Invocation and before the Sanctus everyone raise hands'.

Well, you have to keep in mind that outside of the liturgical denoms, we aren't that programed. I've attended services in a RCC and a Presbyterian church and had to have someone explain that in the bulletin the * meant "stand" and the bold meant kneel, etc. :lol: See, our bulletin is for event announcements! So, "hand raising" and "dancing" are not listed in a bulletin schedule....we just do it because.....

kay-gee
Oct 26th 2010, 04:00 AM
Tango, dear, I may not be the best dancer in the world but a crackpot? Nah, not really! :lol:

Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary and praise the Lord.
Psa 28:2 Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place.
Psa 63:4 I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands.
Psa 119:48 I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees.
Lam 3:41 Let us lift up our hearts and our hands to God in heaven
1Ti 2:8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

as for dancing:
Exd 15:20 Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing.
Psa 30:11 You turned my wailing into dancing;
Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp.
Psa 150:4 praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,

Just because you can find in the Bible where somebody did something, does not mean it should be a part of church.

all the best...

kay-gee
Oct 26th 2010, 04:03 AM
What is wrong with sitting still and letting our spirits do the dancing?!

all the best...

-SEEKING-
Oct 26th 2010, 04:05 AM
What is wrong with sitting still and letting our spirits do the dancing?!

all the best...

Nothing at all. At the same time, what's wrong with dancing.

-SEEKING-
Oct 26th 2010, 04:07 AM
Just because you can find in the Bible where somebody did something, does not mean it should be a part of church.

all the best...

Where exactly do you draw the line then?

tango
Oct 26th 2010, 04:19 AM
Where exactly do you draw the line then?

Honestly, I think with a bit of common sense.

The fact something was done in the Bible means we are allowed to do it rather than we have an obligation to do it. The fact something was not done in the Bible means not doing it is acceptable and not that doing it is unacceptable.

David danced before God, which suggests it is acceptable if we were to dance before God. It doesn't mean we have to.

We have no specific record of anyone in the Bible eating hazelnuts and bananas together while balancing a duck on their head but that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to if we so choose.

TomH
Oct 26th 2010, 04:22 AM
Just because you can find in the Bible where somebody did something, does not mean it should be a part of church.

all the best...


Then we have the Quakers as the extreme. I just think everyone is trying to say, we all have our level of comfort, and our own desires of expression. When it comes to praising God we are all led by the Spirit according to our Faith.

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 11:59 AM
Just because you can find in the Bible where somebody did something, does not mean it should be a part of church.

all the best...

Careful there Kay-Gee, that sentence could be used against you in a court of BF law! ;)

Edit: and, how is 1Ti 2:8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. not a direction for us to follow?

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 12:02 PM
Honestly, I think with a bit of common sense.

The fact something was done in the Bible means we are allowed to do it rather than we have an obligation to do it. The fact something was not done in the Bible means not doing it is acceptable and not that doing it is unacceptable.

David danced before God, which suggests it is acceptable if we were to dance before God. It doesn't mean we have to.

We have no specific record of anyone in the Bible eating hazelnuts and bananas together while balancing a duck on their head but that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to if we so choose.

It amazes me that the same gentlemen who can be in a stadium full of football fans (or at home watching on TV) and yell and raise their hands and jump and dance around won't do the same before their God. If football can get you so excited that you raise your hands in praise of the players, why can you not do the same for God? Is God so boring....or perhaps He doesn't do enough for you to get you excited? Just wondering.....

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 12:33 PM
Just because you can find in the Bible where somebody did something, does not mean it should be a part of church.

all the best...


What is wrong with sitting still and letting our spirits do the dancing?!

all the best...This is what "freedom" in the Holy Spirit is all about Kay-gee. I grew up in churches where if a person praised above a whisper, they were looked at the first time and if they praised above a whisper a second time... they were asked to be quiet. If they praised above a whisper a third time... well, you're not welcomed in the church. God forbid you raised your hand... they'd call on you because they would think you had something to say or that something was wrong :lol:

NO FREEDOM! The Holy Spirit was fully quenched.

A church that allows the Holy Spirit to move in freedom, you will have some quiet, some with just a hand raised yet they are silently praising, some with a hand up and they are praising outloud, some with two hands held high (some quietly, some loudly), some will dance, some will not, some will just sit while others stand. Some dance at their seat, or jump and cry out in jubilation, some move out into areas of openess and dance freely around and some may be jubilant and some are not and dance in silence (usually crying), some just cry, some do not, some sing, some do not, some stand there and watch, some stand there and just listen, some watch there watch waiting for the singing to stop (they don't want to worship).

The point is, it's "our" choice to allow the Holy Spirit to move us in praise and worship and if we allow the Holy Spirit that freedom, then we praise and worship as God is leading and the way He wants us to. Not praising and worshiping the way, we want to or the way that the church has dictated that all worship and praise will be conducted.

Believe me... I have sat there or stood there and my heart has felt like it was bursting from my chest and short of the stream of tears running down my face, no one would know that I was so deep into worship I wasn't in the church for all practical purposes (I've worshiped this way at my home as well)... I was in God's presence and I didn't want to leave from His presence. The Holy Spirit was leading me, I didn't move in any physical way. So yeah, that was the way the Holy Spirit was leading me but all around me people are doing many of the examples I wrote above... FREEDOM in the Holy Spirit and all are allowing the Holy Spirit to move them.

tango
Oct 26th 2010, 01:21 PM
It amazes me that the same gentlemen who can be in a stadium full of football fans (or at home watching on TV) and yell and raise their hands and jump and dance around won't do the same before their God. If football can get you so excited that you raise your hands in praise of the players, why can you not do the same for God? Is God so boring....or perhaps He doesn't do enough for you to get you excited? Just wondering.....

If God scored a touchdown from the opponent's 5-yard line that might change things...

Seriously, you make a good point. I don't follow sports so I just don't get excited about them at all but it's an entirely fair call. Of course part of it comes back to pleasing people and fitting in with the crowd - in a football game presumably it's expected that people wave their arms and shout, whereas in many churches it's expected that people sit in their pew and only speak when the order of service tells them what to say.

As Slug said, if we pour enough cold water on the Spirit's fire we'll feel no inclination to raise our hands and get excited.

divaD
Oct 26th 2010, 01:59 PM
Nothing at all. At the same time, what's wrong with dancing.



2 Samuel 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.


Could you imagine if some professed Christians of today had witnessed this? No doubt, many of them would have been as Michal Saul's daughter looking through a window, and despising David in their hearts. And I'm talking about professed Christians. So, getting back to raising one's hands fully in the air during worship..who cares if no one else does it..who cares if others look at you as whatever? Is one there to please man, or is one there to worship the King of kings? What I'm wondering, why is anyone even looking around to see what others are doing or not doing in the first place?
Shouldn't one be focusing on what they themselves are doing instead? If one feels led to raise their hands and praise the Lord at the tops of their voice, then who cares if anyone else is not doing it, who cares if anyone is despising you in their hearts because of it? I seriously doubt that David gave it a moment of thought as to what others would think of him, when he basically danced in the streets for all to see. But notice, David was leaping and dancing before the LORD..that's the point. Clearly he was focused on the Lord and His greatness, and not on what others may or may not have thought about it. Something else to note here. This was a king doing the leaping and dancing. Out in public even.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 02:07 PM
What I'm wondering, why is anyone even looking around to see what others are doing or not doing in the first place?
Shouldn't one be focusing on what they themselves are doing instead? If one feels led to raise their hands and praise the Lord at the tops of their voice, then who cares if anyone else is doing it, who cares if anyone is despising you in their hearts because of it?Hooah... when the Holy Spirit leads, you won't even know that others are looking at you and despising what you are doing and on the flip side as you said, any led in the Spirit will not even care that you ARE raising your hands and shouting out to the Lord in jubilation, praise, worship, and in adoration.

The moment a person looks around to see what others are doing, OR a person is worried about what others are gonna think of them if they do or don't raise their hands, sing/cry out or not, dance or not... they are in the flesh and the Holy Spirit is not being given the freedom to move them.

divaD
Oct 26th 2010, 02:19 PM
The moment a person looks around to see what others are doing, OR a person is worried about what others are gonna think of them if they do or don't raise their hands, sing/cry out or not, dance or not... they are in the flesh and the Holy Spirit is not being given the freedom to move them.

I 100% agree. In the flesh is exactly what state they would be in.

kay-gee
Oct 26th 2010, 02:32 PM
It amazes me that the same gentlemen who can be in a stadium full of football fans (or at home watching on TV) and yell and raise their hands and jump and dance around won't do the same before their God. If football can get you so excited that you raise your hands in praise of the players, why can you not do the same for God? Is God so boring....or perhaps He doesn't do enough for you to get you excited? Just wondering.....

Athletes need that. It fires them up to win games. God does not need that. He doesn't care about hands or any other part of you. He is interested in heart only.

all the best...

kay-gee
Oct 26th 2010, 02:34 PM
Then we have the Quakers as the extreme. I just think everyone is trying to say, we all have our level of comfort, and our own desires of expression. When it comes to praising God we are all led by the Spirit according to our Faith.

Yes, I were not such a hard nosed CofC'er, I would become a Quaker. I think they have it right concerning quiet reverance in the assembly.

all the best...

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 02:37 PM
Yes, I were not such a hard nosed CofC'er, I would become a Quaker. I think they have it right concerning quiet reverance in the assembly.

all the best...Kay-gee, is worship to ONLY be reverent? Can the Lord be joyfull and by His Holy Spirit inpire those in Christ to also be joyfull in worship? Or must it always/only be reverent?

GitRDunn
Oct 26th 2010, 02:38 PM
This is what "freedom" in the Holy Spirit is all about Kay-gee. I grew up in churches where if a person praised above a whisper, they were looked at the first time and if they praised above a whisper a second time... they were asked to be quiet. If they praised above a whisper a third time... well, you're not welcomed in the church. God forbid you raised your hand... they'd call on you because they would think you had something to say or that something was wrong :lol:

NO FREEDOM! The Holy Spirit was fully quenched.

A church that allows the Holy Spirit to move in freedom, you will have some quiet, some with just a hand raised yet they are silently praising, some with a hand up and they are praising outloud, some with two hands held high (some quietly, some loudly), some will dance, some will not, some will just sit while others stand. Some dance at their seat, or jump and cry out in jubilation, some move out into areas of openess and dance freely around and some may be jubilant and some are not and dance in silence (usually crying), some just cry, some do not, some sing, some do not, some stand there and watch, some stand there and just listen, some watch there watch waiting for the singing to stop (they don't want to worship).

The point is, it's "our" choice to allow the Holy Spirit to move us in praise and worship and if we allow the Holy Spirit that freedom, then we praise and worship as God is leading and the way He wants us to. Not praising and worshiping the way, we want to or the way that the church has dictated that all worship and praise will be conducted.

Believe me... I have sat there or stood there and my heart has felt like it was bursting from my chest and short of the stream of tears running down my face, no one would know that I was so deep into worship I wasn't in the church for all practical purposes (I've worshiped this way at my home as well)... I was in God's presence and I didn't want to leave from His presence. The Holy Spirit was leading me, I didn't move in any physical way. So yeah, that was the way the Holy Spirit was leading me but all around me people are doing many of the examples I wrote above... FREEDOM in the Holy Spirit and all are allowing the Holy Spirit to move them.
You make some good points, however, I think you are wrong in assuming that if the Holy Spirit is allowed to move freely you will necessarily have people dancing and shouting, etc. It is just as easy to worship God while sitting still, just as you professed.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 02:39 PM
You make some good points, however, I think you are wrong in assuming that if the Holy Spirit is allowed to move freely you will necessarily have people dancing and shouting, etc. It is just as easy to worship God while sitting still, just as you professed.I didn't say that the Holy Spirit would have you ONLY dancing and shouting... reread all I wrote please.

OK... yes, as I wrote... so why do those who do dance get strange looks from those who don't dance and visa verse?

It's because they are all in the flesh and not in the Spirit if they're having any care about what others are doing OR thinking about what others think of them... they are in the flesh and not worshiping at all.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 02:45 PM
When David danced he did not dance in the tabernacle. When Israel danced before the golden calf they were orgiastic and very sensual for which God judged them severely. Dance that is sensuous has no place in the church.

Was Paul in 2 Tim 2:8 speaking literaly or figuratively as to the lifting up of holy hands? What are holy hands?

I have no personal problem with lifting up hands and praising the Lord as long as it is done decently and in an orderly fashion. In some old Church of God congregations I have heard of folks getting blessed and waiving their hankies and glorifying God. As long as it does not disrupt the preaching of Gods word I say have at it. If the preacher cannot preach then I say it needs to be reigned in.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
Oct 26th 2010, 02:46 PM
Not all churches tango are crackpots

I would be willing to bet that if I danced out of my suit down to my underwear all but a few churches would label me as a crackpot. :D

kay-gee
Oct 26th 2010, 02:46 PM
[
[QUOTE]QUOTE=Slug1;2536518]This is what "freedom" in the Holy Spirit is all about Kay-gee. I grew up in churches where if a person praised above a whisper, they were looked at the first time and if they praised above a whisper a second time... they were asked to be quiet. If they praised above a whisper a third time... well, you're not welcomed in the church. God forbid you raised your hand... they'd call on you because they would think you had something to say or that something was wrong :lol:


I don't think it would hurt any of us to get back to more of this kind of service. We are a royal priesthood. I see no reason why we need to dance and be noisy. I'm sure Paul woud have asked you to cool it also when this unruliness begins. He said we need to be "orderly" (1Cor 14:40)

all the best...

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 02:47 PM
When David danced he did not dance in the tabernacle. When Israel danced before the golden calf they were orgiastic and very sensual for which God judged them severely. Dance that is sensuous has no place in the church.
Of course it was Roger because they were not worshiping God. They were all in the flesh and worshiping a piece of metal. So, yes, it would not be anything to be done in church.

Did God punish David for his freedom in worship like He did the Israeli nation in their freedom?

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 02:51 PM
[[QUOTE]

I don't think it would hurt any of us to get back to more of this kind of service. We are a royal priesthood. I see no reason why we need to dance and be noisy. I'm sure Paul woud have asked you to cool it also when this unruliness begins. He said we need to be "orderly" (1Cor 14:40)

all the best...I've experienced God move a church during worship from outloud and dancing to silent and crying as all were aligned with the Holy Spirit. It's the Holy Spirit that moves the Body of Christ... all the way from song and praise and dance to dropping to the knees and sobbing while in His presence.

I understand God will have reverance but ONLY this? No outward expression as we see in scripture so much?

See, you dropped the "orderly" card... the only time anything is unorderly is when a church has an agenda and this agenda doesn't allow the Holy Spirit to move freely because if the Holy Spirit did move a person.... then that person would be out of order of MAN'S ORDER.

When the Holy Spirit is moving, NOTHING is out of order because by the lead of the Holy Spirit, ALL IS in God's order... not man's order of a service.

Firefighter
Oct 26th 2010, 02:52 PM
If the preacher cannot preach then I say it needs to be reigned in.

Sometimes the preacher don't need to preach. The Holy Spirit is a FAR better at ministering to the church than I am.

For example: I was sitting in a deacon's chair at the beginning of the service looking over my notes to preach. As the service got started, the Holy Spirit started ministering to the church through testimonies and through worship. People started spontaneously filling the altars. When it came time to preach, I stood up and said that I was no dummy. God was doing what He wanted to do, so I was going to sit down and shut up, and that the altar would continue to be open. I then prayed with the people (probably 3/4 of the church at this point) for the rest of the service. Saints were edified, sinners were asking for forgiveness (without prompting). It was a truly AWESOME move of God. Over 20 people got saved that day.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 02:54 PM
Of course it was Roger because they were not worshiping God. They were all in the flesh and worshiping a piece of metal. So, yes, it would not be anything to be done in church.

Did God punish David for his freedom in worship like He did the Israeli nation in their freedom?
Jesus rebuked the Pharaisees for turning the house of God into a den of theives. Are we at liberty to turn the house of God into a sports arena or a dance hall? Idols do not need to be made of gold for people to worship them. What will be next? Disco Jesus? God should not be seen as a "good time charlie". Try listening to what God has said in His word...Be ye holy as IAM holy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

-SEEKING-
Oct 26th 2010, 02:55 PM
Jesus rebuked the Pharaisees for turning the house of God into a den of theives. Are we at liberty to turn the house of God into a sports arena or a dance hall? Idols do not need to be made of gold for people to worship them. What will be next? Disco Jesus? God should not be seen as a "good time charlie". Try listening to what God has said in His word...Be ye holy as IAM holy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

From a house of thieves, to dancing before the Lord is quite a difference. Be ye Holy means we can't dance?

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 03:02 PM
Jesus rebuked the Pharaisees for turning the house of God into a den of theives. Are we at liberty to turn the house of God into a sports arena or a dance hall? Idols do not need to be made of gold for people to worship them. What will be next? Disco Jesus? God should not be seen as a "good time charlie". Try listening to what God has said in His word...Be ye holy as IAM holy.

For the cause of Christ
RogerYou're beating around the bush Roger. You pull one example of what not to do and using that ONE example to make people believe that ANY dancing is not of God.

Did David EVER get told by God to stop the style of worship that he was led to do?

Are not the Psalms FULL of worshipful dance and praise as well as quiet reverent worship and praise?

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 03:03 PM
Did God punish David for his freedom in worship like He did the Israeli nation in their freedom?
There is no evidence that David's dancing was made part of the tabernacle worship service. If you want to dance before the Lord at home knock youself out. Dance till you drop. Dance with your wife till you both drop. Dance in church with your neighbors wife and there is going to be problems. Dancing especially modern dance is far too sensuous for church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 03:05 PM
Sometimes the preacher don't need to preach. The Holy Spirit is a FAR better at ministering to the church than I am.

For example: I was sitting in a deacon's chair at the beginning of the service looking over my notes to preach. As the service got started, the Holy Spirit started ministering to the church through testimonies and through worship. People started spontaneously filling the altars. When it came time to preach, I stood up and said that I was no dummy. God was doing what He wanted to do, so I was going to sit down and shut up, and that the altar would continue to be open. I then prayed with the people (probably 3/4 of the church at this point) for the rest of the service. Saints were edified, sinners were asking for forgiveness (without prompting). It was a truly AWESOME move of God. Over 20 people got saved that day.Hooah... I've experienced this also... the Holy Spirit was moving in a mighty way!

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 03:07 PM
There is no evidence that David's dancing was made part of the tabernacle worship service. If you want to dance before the Lord at home knock youself out. Dance till you drop. Dance with your wife till you both drop. Dance in church with your neighbors wife and there is going to be problems. Dancing especially modern dance is far too sensuous for church.

For the cause of Christ
RogerAnswer the question Roger and please stop beating around the bush... you're very good at it and never even face the question.

Did God EVER stop David from dancing the way that he was led to worship the Lord?

Hahaha, and tossing in the dancing with your neighbors wife helps this discussion how?

Besides... we're ALL not talking about dancing in the flesh or worldly, we're talking about how the Holy Spirit leads dance and praise and worship. In the SPIRIT Roger, not in the flesh or sensual.

The Mighty Sword
Oct 26th 2010, 03:08 PM
I lift and raise up my hands to Adore GOD, surrender to GOD and to recieve GOD.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 03:17 PM
Answer the question Roger and please stop beating around the bush... you're very good at it and never even face the question.

Did God EVER stop David from dancing the way that he was led to worship the Lord?
I have given you answers you cannot accept so you deem then as not answered. When you develop the heart of a David then you may dance before the Lord. Did David have the royal rock band play while he danced?

Hahaha, and tossing in the dancing with your neighbors wife helps this discussion how?

Besides... we're ALL not talking about dancing in the flesh or worldly, we're talking about how the Holy Spirit leads dance and praise and worship. In the SPIRIT Roger, not in the flesh or sensual.
It is a warning of where this attitude leads.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 03:21 PM
I have given you answers you cannot accept so you deem then as not answered. When you develop the heart of a David then you may dance before the Lord. Did David have the royal rock band play while he danced?

It is a warning of where this attitude leads.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger... nothing about a rock band.

Did God ever tell David to stop the style of dance, praise, and worship that he lifted up to Him?

It's really a Yes, or No answer.... quite easy actually... yes or no?

Vhayes
Oct 26th 2010, 03:24 PM
I would be willing to bet that if I danced out of my suit down to my underwear all but a few churches would label me as a crackpot. :D
You don't wear a suit.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 03:26 PM
You don't wear a suit.See, he's already there then :lol:

Bladers
Oct 26th 2010, 03:32 PM
I was taught, at the first church I attended after being saved, that this was a sign of surrender and abandoning ourselves to God. I was more than a bit uncomfortable doing so at first. Now, after moving and joining a new church home where it's not as common, I find I miss it. Only a few members of our current will, very conservativly, raise their hands to about shoulder height. I feel as though it would be considered 'over the top' or showie to do so.

I'm wondering if there is scriptural support to the practice.

Ha, same here. I'm so used to raising my hands during worship or prayer, whether in church or privately, that if I don't raise my hands it feels awkward, like something is missing...

Another thing about raising hands is, I don't know if other people have noticed this. But It helps you concentrate on the one whom you are worshiping.
Less distraction, more concentration because you are reaching out to Him!

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 03:32 PM
Just because you can find in the Bible where somebody did something, does not mean it should be a part of church.

all the best...

:pray: I pray the LORD to break the shackles off your feet and set them adancing :)

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 03:36 PM
I would be willing to bet that if I danced out of my suit down to my underwear all but a few churches would label me as a crackpot. :D

And, do we allow the opinions of mortal men to affect how we worship the immortal God? Since when do we concern ourselves with the opinions of mere men?

Let me be even more undignified than this!!!

Firefighter
Oct 26th 2010, 03:36 PM
Actually, someone said something about David's dancing and I don't think it worked out to well for her... ;)

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 03:36 PM
Honestly, I think with a bit of common sense.

The fact something was done in the Bible means we are allowed to do it rather than we have an obligation to do it. The fact something was not done in the Bible means not doing it is acceptable and not that doing it is unacceptable.

David danced before God, which suggests it is acceptable if we were to dance before God. It doesn't mean we have to.

.
I think Frecs did cover that in the verses she quoted :) Ps150 ;)

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 03:37 PM
It amazes me that the same gentlemen who can be in a stadium full of football fans (or at home watching on TV) and yell and raise their hands and jump and dance around won't do the same before their God. If football can get you so excited that you raise your hands in praise of the players, why can you not do the same for God? Is God so boring....or perhaps He doesn't do enough for you to get you excited? Just wondering.....
Are you sure you are not my twin sister?? :hmm:

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 03:38 PM
Ha, same here. I'm so used to raising my hands during worship or prayer, whether in church or privately, that if I don't raise my hands it feels awkward, like something is missing...

Another thing about raising hands is, I don't know if other people have noticed this. But It helps you concentrate on the one whom you are worshiping.
Less distraction, more concentration because you are reaching out to Him!Amen...

It sure seems that the enemy mocks our surrender to God in our raising our hands high in the air to God. Ya know how? When a person is held up by a mugger and they raise their hands up in surrender to that mugger... satan is mocking God as he can get people to raise their hands in surrender to him as well.

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 03:38 PM
Actually, someone said something about David's dancing and I don't think it worked out to well for her... ;)

Nope. Because David was man enough to humble himself and be undignified in his worship of God.

Firefighter
Oct 26th 2010, 03:38 PM
You don't wear a suit.

It depends on the church. I have actually been seen in a "collar", robe and stole. :o

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 03:39 PM
2 Samuel 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
.....23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.


Could you imagine if some professed Christians of today had witnessed this? No doubt, many of them would have been as Michal Saul's daughter looking through a window, and despising David in their hearts. And I'm talking about professed Christians. So, getting back to raising one's hands fully in the air during worship..who cares if no one else does it..who cares if others look at you as whatever? Is one there to please man, or is one there to worship the King of kings? What I'm wondering, why is anyone even looking around to see what others are doing or not doing in the first place?
Shouldn't one be focusing on what they themselves are doing instead? If one feels led to raise their hands and praise the Lord at the tops of their voice, then who cares if anyone else is not doing it, who cares if anyone is despising you in their hearts because of it? I seriously doubt that David gave it a moment of thought as to what others would think of him, when he basically danced in the streets for all to see. But notice, David was leaping and dancing before the LORD..that's the point. Clearly he was focused on the Lord and His greatness, and not on what others may or may not have thought about it. Something else to note here. This was a king doing the leaping and dancing. Out in public even. This scripture also puts emphasis on how God looks on those who who despises those who worship Him in Spirit and in truth :idea:

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 03:39 PM
Are you sure you are not my twin sister?? :hmm:

Twins in Spirit, my sister! Sisters from different mothers! :D

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 03:39 PM
Actually, someone said something about David's dancing and I don't think it worked out to well for her... ;)Look, I'm just trying to get a straight answer from Roger!

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 03:40 PM
Look, I'm just trying to get a straight answer from Roger!

Snowballs chance in....

Firefighter
Oct 26th 2010, 03:41 PM
FRECS!!!! :o

Let's all be nice now...

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 03:43 PM
Sometimes the preacher don't need to preach. The Holy Spirit is a FAR better at ministering to the church than I am.

For example: I was sitting in a deacon's chair at the beginning of the service looking over my notes to preach. As the service got started, the Holy Spirit started ministering to the church through testimonies and through worship. People started spontaneously filling the altars. When it came time to preach, I stood up and said that I was no dummy. God was doing what He wanted to do, so I was going to sit down and shut up, and that the altar would continue to be open. I then prayed with the people (probably 3/4 of the church at this point) for the rest of the service. Saints were edified, sinners were asking for forgiveness (without prompting). It was a truly AWESOME move of God. Over 20 people got saved that day.
So based on this instance we should radically change our methodology and stop preaching altogether? Just kidding.

It was nice of the deacon to let you sit in is chair.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 03:48 PM
FRECS!!!! :o

Let's all be nice now...

You are right. I'm sorry. :sad:

Firefighter
Oct 26th 2010, 03:50 PM
So based on this instance we should radically change our methodology and stop preaching altogether? Just kidding.

When we get in the way of God moving for the sake of our order of service, YES!!!

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 03:53 PM
When we get in the way of God moving for the sake of our order of service, YES!!!Notice the point Roger made.... OUR methodology! Man's way and when the Holy Spirit moves in God's ORDER it's gonna always be out of OUR methodologies ORDER.

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 03:59 PM
I would be willing to bet that if I danced out of my suit down to my underwear all but a few churches would label me as a crackpot. :D
David stripped out of his royal robes, and was dressed the same as the priests... in a linen ephod.. :D underwear there only ,means the common clothes under his royal robes....

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 04:00 PM
David stripped out of his royal robes, and was dressed the same as the priests... in a linen ephod.. :D underwear there only ,means the common clothes under his royal robes.... People will see my commoed or M&M boxers then :lol:

karenoka27
Oct 26th 2010, 04:02 PM
It's getting hot in here.
I was brought up in the Catholic church. You didn't even smile during mass.
After salvation, I went to a Baptist church, you could smile but stand very still and don't show your teeth.
I have been to Pentecostal churches where you can smile, laugh, dance and shout.
I am now in a Baptist Church that plays contemporary music. I can smile, be glad in my heart and lift my hands before my God and give Him the glory due unto His name.
I think we all have to find what helps us to worship at our best in the best way we know how to worship.
When you allow the Holy Spirit to fill your heart with praise, it's really hard to just stand there and sing something like How Great Thou Art, when your insides are screaming "HOW GREAT THOU ART!"
I wonder why we argue about who is right in how they go about worship...is this pleasing to God? He knows our heart...He knows if we are praising Him or just going through some expected emotion brought on by those around us.

Worship on Sunday or any service is us coming together to glorify Him in all of His fulness...Praise the Name of the Lord!:pp (oops...I lost control for a minute there...);)

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 04:13 PM
When you allow the Holy Spirit to fill your heart with praise, it's really hard to just stand there and sing something like How Great Thou Art, when your insides are screaming "HOW GREAT THOU ART!"


If that ain't the truth I don't know what is! I used to sing that song in a Southern Baptist church and it was solumn and respectful but somehow singing it now, all these years later, and that song makes my bones dance! I can't stand still when I sing it, I just can't!

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 04:13 PM
FRECS!!!! :o

Let's all be nice now...
Don't go all soft on me. I won't be able to type if my hands are in the air.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 04:14 PM
It's getting hot in here.
I was brought up in the Catholic church. You didn't even smile during mass.
After salvation, I went to a Baptist church, you could smile but stand very still and don't show your teeth.I was brought up the same way basically.

I never got to know God through worship. You can never "teach" a person how to worship, it has to be experienced and for a child to watch all the adults not be allowed to do NOTHING except sit there and listen to the music, that sure didn't help me any.

Not until I allowed the Holy Spirit to move me, then I found myself before God and in His presence and the praise and worship don't stop until He says, enough for now... time for me to speak through your pastor and you can be fed as well through the message I have given him.

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 04:17 PM
If you don't like the dancing/lifting of arms, close your eyes...just don't judge them,,,,

ProDeo
Oct 26th 2010, 04:17 PM
It amazes me that the same gentlemen who can be in a stadium full of football fans (or at home watching on TV) and yell and raise their hands and jump and dance around won't do the same before their God. If football can get you so excited that you raise your hands in praise of the players, why can you not do the same for God? Is God so boring....or perhaps He doesn't do enough for you to get you excited? Just wondering.....

You just described me. I am wondering about this for 30+ years. I think it's a character thing. I prefer to experience my relationship with the Lord in silence and private. For that same reason I seldom pray in public and if I do after all it's because I feel pressured because everyone else present has already, which makes it unreal and dishonest for me.

In private I have no inhibitions, in public I have.

So either I am a weirdo, something is wrong with me, or I am just different. I am happy with 1 & 3 ;)

karenoka27
Oct 26th 2010, 04:19 PM
How Great is our God! Sing with me! Seriously...just take a minute and sing! Lift your hands or don't....just praise Him!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOgQBgDdy6o&feature=related

http://www.cardensdesign.com/photography/fractals3003.jpg

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 04:22 PM
You just described me. I am wondering about this for 30+ years. I think it's a character thing. I prefer to experience my relationship with the Lord in silence and private. For that same reason I seldom pray in public and if I do after all it's because I feel pressured because everyone else present has already, which makes it unreal and dishonest for me.

In private I have no inhibitions, in public I have.

So either I am a weirdo, something is wrong with me, or I am just different. I am happy with 1 & 3 ;)I was the EXACT same way. Brother... it's a bondage. God ins't only in the privacy of your home... He's in you so when you're outside and He feels jubilant and wants to express it... that bondage stops you. Usually embarrasment is the lead bondage and you just have to bind it in the name of Jesus and loose a boldness to be free and allow the Holy Spirit to move ya.

That's another problem... the opposite effect. People go to chuch and allow the Holy Spirit to move them in praise and dance but the moment they walk out the door of the church, they turn it all off and quench the Holy Spirit from moving them anywhere else.

It's all forms of bondage.

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 04:24 PM
How Great is our God! Sing with me! Seriously...just take a minute and sing! Lift your hands or don't....just praise Him!


http://www.cardensdesign.com/photography/fractals3003.jpg
I have choreographed a dance to this :)

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 04:26 PM
Notice the point Roger made.... OUR methodology! Man's way and when the Holy Spirit moves in God's ORDER it's gonna always be out of OUR methodologies ORDER.
I can always count on the nuances of communication being lost on you. It was a halfway facetious comment. We often on Wed eve prayer services have the entire time used up with testimones of what God is doing and blessing in individual beleivers hearts so no preaching is done except that done by the testifiers. That does not mean we should adopt this for our Sunday worship time.

If a church congregation is not interested in expository preaching of Gods word they will readily accept any substitute including dancing. These are they who lack a firm rooting in Gods word and are readily tossed about with every wind of doctrine. The Spirit is here or the Spirit is there and they chase that which they can never apprehend.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 04:28 PM
I can always count on the nuances of communication being lost on you. It was a halfway facetious comment. We often on Wed eve prayer services have the entire time used up with testimones of what God is doing and blessing in individual beleivers hearts so no preaching is done except that done by the testifiers. That does not mean we should adopt this for our Sunday worship time.

If a church congregation is not interested in expository preaching of Gods word they will readily accept any substitute including dancing. These are they who lack a firm rooting in Gods word and are readily tossed about with every wind of doctrine. The Spirit is here or the Spirit is there and they chase that which they can never apprehend.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Cool...

I'm a sterotypical dumb grunt... that my excuse and I'm sticking to it :lol:

Did God tell David to stop praising, dancing, and worshiping the way he did to God? Please, yes or no!

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 04:56 PM
Cool...

I'm a sterotypical dumb grunt... that my excuse and I'm sticking to it :lol:
Somehow the image of you dancing in your cammo bvds is more than I desire to know. According to R. Lee Ermy retired drill sgts make poor therapists anyhow.

Did God tell David to stop praising, dancing, and worshiping the way he did to God? Please, yes or no!
Did you read the entire chapter to see what it cost David? Michal was barren all her days and Uzzah died.

In the NT when Herodias danced John the Baptist lost his head. Interesting contrast of types of dancing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 05:02 PM
Did you read the entire chapter to see what it cost David? Michal was barren all her days and Uzzah died.



But, was Michal's barrenness due to David's dancing, or her ridicule of it? ummm???

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 05:07 PM
Did you read the entire chapter to see what it cost David? Michal was barren all her days NO you are reading it wrong!! It is NOT what it cost David, it is what it cost Michal, David had many other children... :idea:

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 05:07 PM
Somehow the image of you dancing in your cammo bvds is more than I desire to know. According to R. Lee Ermy retired drill sgts make poor therapists anyhow.

Did you read the entire chapter to see what it cost David? Michal was barren all her days and Uzzah died.

In the NT when Herodias danced John the Baptist lost his head. Interesting contrast of types of dancing.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger did YOU read that chapter? Uzzah touched that which was not to be touched (the Arc) and he died. And Michal wasn't barren, she CHOSE not to bare him children because not only did she despise Davids praise to God but she was spiteful as well. Or, looking at it from another point of view... did David CHOOSE not to mate with her?

The scripture is perfectly clear in one thing though... his dancing and praise didn't cause Uzzah's death, nor the reason for Michal to never bare a child.

So... did God ever tell David to stop praising, dancing, and worshiping Him the way that he did? Yes or no, please.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 05:14 PM
But, was Michal's barrenness due to David's dancing, or her ridicule of it? ummm???
She was offended by David abasing himself before the people. We as Christians are also the representatives of the King ought we to abase ourselves before the world? Nowhere in the passage does it indicate that the Lord was pleased with Davids dancing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 05:21 PM
She was offended by David abasing himself before the people. We as Christians are also the representatives of the King ought we to abase ourselves before the world? Nowhere in the passage does it indicate that the Lord was pleased with Davids dancing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Her pride was afronted. I'm not going to let someone else's sin (pride) stop me from worshipping my God.
Show me where God says He is displeased with David's dancing?
Show me where God says He is displeased with anyone's dancing before Him?

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 05:23 PM
She was offended by David abasing himself before the people. We as Christians are also the representatives of the King ought we to abase ourselves before the world? Nowhere in the passage does it indicate that the Lord was pleased with Davids dancing.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger... in an earlier post you presented examples of dancing that the Lord reacted to in negative ways. You brought up two examples and they are good examples BUT they are examples of dancing that is not of God and IS in the flesh. So, no wonder God was angry.

BUT, we're talking about David and NOW you state, was God pleased with Davids dancing... He sure wasn't pleased with the dancing done in your other two examples and reacted to it.

So... did God ever tell David to stop praising, dancing, and worshiping Him the way that he did? Yes or no, please.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 05:24 PM
Roger did YOU read that chapter? Uzzah touched that which was not to be touched (the Arc) and he died. And Michal wasn't barren, she CHOSE not to bare him children because not only did she despise Davids praise to God but she was spiteful as well. Or, looking at it from another point of view... did David CHOOSE not to mate with her?

The scripture is perfectly clear in one thing though... his dancing and praise didn't cause Uzzah's death, nor the reason for Michal to never bare a child.

So... did God ever tell David to stop praising, dancing, and worshiping Him the way that he did? Yes or no, please.
David was moving the arc but not according to the methodology prescribed by the Lord. The arc was not to be hauled on a cart. The arc was to be carried on staves Num 4:1-15

God never told David to dance in the first place. Davids dancing surely caused an offense which resulted in Michal never bearing a child. Unintended consequence, perhaps, but the result remains.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 05:27 PM
David was moving the arc but not according to the methodology prescribed by the Lord. The arc was not to be hauled on a cart. The arc was to be carried on staves Num 4:1-15

God never told David to dance in the first place. Davids dancing surely caused an offense which resulted in Michal never bearing a child. Unintended consequence, perhaps, but the result remains.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger... it's because of her despite of the dancing, not because of the dancing... it was the despising. The despite in her caused her to be offended. Clearly sure seems that she was unforgiving as well since she didn't bare him any kids.

Pillar
Oct 26th 2010, 05:38 PM
Just because you can find in the Bible where somebody did something, does not mean it should be a part of church.

all the best...

I agree.

David was not in a church service with his other brothers and sisters in Christ when he was worshiping the Lord with lifted hands, singing, music, and dancing. But this does not mean these things can't be done in a church service either I would wager. Paul never touches much on these things in his church order epistles on how things are to be done in church services. Raising of hands, etc....

Problem comes when churches tell people how they have to worship, and every church I have been a member of does this in one way or another. Which of course leads to Incensarity in worship services. People do what they think they "ought to do" to please others, rather then what their spirit leads them to do, for fear of being thought of as a non conformer and being rejected in any number of ways by their brothers and sisters in Christ and the music leaders who are giving the commands.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 05:43 PM
Her pride was afronted. I'm not going to let someone else's sin (pride) stop me from worshipping my God.
Show me where God says He is displeased with David's dancing?
Show me where God says He is displeased with anyone's dancing before Him?
There is nothing in the entire chapter to indicate that God was in this operation from begining to end. David was acting of his own volition and not at the prompting of the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 05:47 PM
Roger... it's because of her despite of the dancing, not because of the dancing... it was the despising. The despite in her caused her to be offended. Clearly sure seems that she was unforgiving as well since she didn't bare him any kids.
She was offended that the King acted like a vain fellow shamelessly uncovering himself. vs 20 In vs 22 David was unrepentant. Where do we find the Lord in this? Nothing but silence...David was happy and the people got a free lunch but the Lord is silent. Make of it what you will but I'm not seeing this as a glowing report for dancing especially in public.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 06:09 PM
She was offended that the King acted like a vain fellow shamelessly uncovering himself. He was dressed like the Priests :D
vs 20 In vs 22 David was unrepentant.He did not need to repent, if he did, he would have been a "Peoples Pleaser" and he was not, David pleased God!

Where do we find the Lord in this? Nothing but silence...David was happy and the people got a free lunch but the Lord is silent. Make of it what you will but I'm not seeing this as a glowing report for dancing especially in public.
Roger Michal was filled with pride, and embarrassed because David did not stand out as the King, but as a common man.:idea: her barrenness was punishment from God because she judged David who was a man after God's own heart

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 06:12 PM
She was offended that the King acted like a vain fellow shamelessly uncovering himself. vs 20 In vs 22 David was unrepentant. Where do we find the Lord in this? Nothing but silence...David was happy and the people got a free lunch but the Lord is silent. Make of it what you will but I'm not seeing this as a glowing report for dancing especially in public.

For the cause of Christ
RogerIt was because of what was in his heart for God he really could care less. Just like a person moved by their heart for God today and they did the same... it's ONLY what's in any observer's heart that find it wrong, is where the problem is and our example is Michal. God didn't find David's praise wrong, she did... God clearly punished praise and dancing that was wrong. To many exampeles in the Bible to say otherwise... you even produce two of them for this thread.

So, based on this and God's clear wrathful response to praise that ins't true to Him... was David's praise, dance, and worship wrong?

Besides... God was very loud and clear and was not silent about David's praise, dance, and worship... again we have Michal. What happened to her... you say she was barren, not because of David's dancing. It was because of her REACTION to David's dancing before the Lord. Imagine how God is going to feel towards you if the Lord moves a person in your church the same as David and you feel in your heart the same as Michal felt towards David. You don't think that God is going to allow that person to continue in obedience to Him and punish you for even attempting to stop them as Michal ATTEMPTED to stop David?

Don't get in God's way, dude. Let the Holy Spirit move fellow Christians who are not ashamed.

Dani H
Oct 26th 2010, 06:18 PM
Raise your hands, but don't judge those who don't.

Dance, but don't judge those who don't.

Sit quietly, but don't judge those who don't.

And etc.

Worship is for God, not you. You've therefore no opinion about it. :D

Vhayes
Oct 26th 2010, 06:27 PM
Inexplicable tears streaming down cheeks. Smiles plastered all over faces. Heads bowed. Hands raised.

If it's all to recognize the wonder and love of our Father, it's good.

But please, don't tell people who do not raise their hands they are not worshipping. It's heart God sees - not actions.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 06:28 PM
But please, don't tell people who do not raise their hands they are not worshipping. It's heart God sees - not actions.No one has said that...

karenoka27
Oct 26th 2010, 06:35 PM
Raise your hands, but don't judge those who don't.

Dance, but don't judge those who don't.

Sit quietly, but don't judge those who don't.

And etc.

Worship is for God, not you. You've therefore no opinion about it. :D

If only that ended the conversation....:lol:

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 06:37 PM
But please, don't tell people who do not raise their hands they are not worshipping. It's heart God sees - not actions.

I'm wondering where this comes from. I've seen this same kind of reaction on other threads--miracles, healings, gifts....etc. I'm wondering why you seem resistant and why you assume people are passing judgment.

karenoka27
Oct 26th 2010, 06:40 PM
I was taught, at the first church I attended after being saved, that this was a sign of surrender and abandoning ourselves to God. I was more than a bit uncomfortable doing so at first. Now, after moving and joining a new church home where it's not as common, I find I miss it. Only a few members of our current will, very conservativly, raise their hands to about shoulder height. I feel as though it would be considered 'over the top' or showie to do so.

I'm wondering if there is scriptural support to the practice.

Back to the OP....
when I raise my hands, I don't lift my hands over my head, (I couldn't if I tried)...I just quietly open my hands and lift them up to the Lord..not showy, just worship...from heart to God's.

Vhayes
Oct 26th 2010, 06:43 PM
No one has said that...

Really? Then why say this?

I never got to know God through worship. You can never "teach" a person how to worship, it has to be experienced and for a child to watch all the adults not be allowed to do NOTHING except sit there and listen to the music, that sure didn't help me any.

Not until I allowed the Holy Spirit to move me, then I found myself before God and in His presence and the praise and worship don't stop until He says, enough for now... time for me to speak through your pastor and you can be fed as well through the message I have given him.


You went on to say that it is a form of bondage.

We are all different people. I cry easily. I laugh even more easily. Some people are stoic and allow little emotion to show. But for all either of us know, the stoic stone-face is praising God in his heart a whole lot more than a person dancing in the aisle.

Maybe I am reading you wrong, Slug. If so, I apologize. I'm weary of being told I have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit because I don't "worship" in a certain way or "act" a certain way or have the "gifts" that they feel I should have. If I wasn't such a stubborn person, if God had not yanked my chain REALLY hard, I would have walked totally away from Christianity shortly after becoming a Christian.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 06:44 PM
Back to the OP....
when I raise my hands, I don't lift my hands over my head, (I couldn't if I tried)...I just quietly open my hands and lift them up to the Lord..not showy, just worship...from heart to God's.Hooah, when I worship I'll end up finding my hands raised like this sometimes. In praise, I'll find them held up high(er).

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 06:46 PM
Really? Then why say this?


You went on to say that it is a form of bondage.

We are all different people. I cry easily. I laugh even more easily. Some people are stoic and allow little emotion to show. But for all either of us know, the stoic stone-face is praising God in his heart a whole lot more than a person dancing in the aisle.

Maybe I am reading you wrong, Slug. If so, I apologize. I'm weary of being told I have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit because I don't "worship" in a certain way or "act" a certain way or have the "gifts" that they feel I should have. If I wasn't such a stubborn person, if God had not yanked my chain REALLY hard, I would have walked totally away from Christianity shortly after becoming a Christian.Go to my post #21 then.... that bondage reply was in direct reply to Rebel's post.

Nothing to do with baptism nor gifts.

When a church orders people to NOT lift hands in praise/worship and then you grow up in this and when you discover that you are in freedom to do it if you want and are led to but you DON'T because of what the church MADE you do to suit their rules and order of worship... that is bondage. What their rules were and what their order was stops you from any freedom to worship as led and just can't do it or feel wrong when you do it? Then the bondage is holding you back.

That's what my answer was all about.

Vhayes
Oct 26th 2010, 06:48 PM
I'm wondering where this comes from. I've seen this same kind of reaction on other threads--miracles, healings, gifts....etc. I'm wondering why you seem resistant and why you assume people are passing judgment.

Is this judgemental?



It amazes me that the same gentlemen who can be in a stadium full of football fans (or at home watching on TV) and yell and raise their hands and jump and dance around won't do the same before their God. If football can get you so excited that you raise your hands in praise of the players, why can you not do the same for God? Is God so boring....or perhaps He doesn't do enough for you to get you excited? Just wondering.....

I see that all the time in threads dealing with miracles and healing and etc.

karenoka27
Oct 26th 2010, 06:48 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SHMmvK-EcaE/SkfGi4_VrgI/AAAAAAAADA4/IxNqWUsEGVM/s400/praying-with-open-hands.jpgOh Lord, You are worthy to be Praised!

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 06:53 PM
You have to be Obedient to God's guidance in worship :idea:
God U and I Dance

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 06:57 PM
I'd like to challenge each one of you :idea:
Find the music to Ps 23 somewhere.... and where it comes to :"anoint my head with oil" you scoop your hands and rub it over your face.... and share with me the experience :)

I did hand worship at a meeting of the elderly at our church, and invited them to follow what I was doing..... and some did, and their experience.....!!!

One old guy stood up in church and witnessed about what happened :"Never in my life will I be the same again...."

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 07:00 PM
I'd like to challenge each one of you :idea:
Find the music to Ps 23 somewhere.... and where it comes to :"anoint my head with oil" you scoop your hands and rub it over your face.... and share with me the experience :)Seems like a praise dance pantomime motion.

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 07:03 PM
Is this judgemental?

Lord, howdy, no! It was an observation and a concern. And, I think I managed to word it in a very non-confrontational, concerned manner. If you read judgement in it, it's not coming from here. This is exactly why I am expressing concern...you are seeing judgment where no exists.



I see that all the time in threads dealing with miracles and healing and etc.

Again, observation. If the shoe don't fit....

karenoka27
Oct 26th 2010, 07:04 PM
I'd like to challenge each one of you :idea:
Find the music to Ps 23 somewhere.... and where it comes to :"anoint my head with oil" you scoop your hands and rub it over your face.... and share with me the experience :)

I did hand worship at a meeting of the elderly at our church, and invited them to follow what I was doing..... and some did, and their experience.....!!!

One old guy stood up in church and witnessed about what happened :"Never in my life will I be the same again...."

Found one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-qLa_2GPcM&feature=related

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 07:08 PM
Found one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-qLa_2GPcM&feature=related
Thanks Karen!! .

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 07:09 PM
Seems like a praise dance pantomime motion.

I think I need to post the link to you dancing again Slug :idea:

divaD
Oct 26th 2010, 07:11 PM
It was because of what was in his heart for God he really could care less. Just like a person moved by their heart for God today and they did the same... it's ONLY what's in any observer's heart that find it wrong, is where the problem is and our example is Michal. God didn't find David's praise wrong, she did... God clearly punished praise and dancing that was wrong. To many exampeles in the Bible to say otherwise... you even produce two of them for this thread.

So, based on this and God's clear wrathful response to praise that ins't true to Him... was David's praise, dance, and worship wrong?

Besides... God was very loud and clear and was not silent about David's praise, dance, and worship... again we have Michal. What happened to her... you say she was barren, not because of David's dancing. It was because of her REACTION to David's dancing before the Lord. Imagine how God is going to feel towards you if the Lord moves a person in your church the same as David and you feel in your heart the same as Michal felt towards David. You don't think that God is going to allow that person to continue in obedience to Him and punish you for even attempting to stop them as Michal ATTEMPTED to stop David?

Don't get in God's way, dude. Let the Holy Spirit move fellow Christians who are not ashamed.



Slug1, you got it all figured out. I believe the way you interpret those passages, is pretty much how the majority of us do as well. After what happened with Uzzah, and the fact that David became afraid of the LORD that day, do you really think David would do something as foolish as dancing unto the LORD, if the LORD found it displeasing? Verse 12 says they brought the ark with gladness. This was after they were afraid to even move it for 3 months, verse 10 and 11. Context...it's all about overall context.

Vhayes
Oct 26th 2010, 07:22 PM
Lord, howdy, no! It was an observation and a concern. And, I think I managed to word it in a very non-confrontational, concerned manner. If you read judgement in it, it's not coming from here. This is exactly why I am expressing concern...you are seeing judgment where no exists.
I have stated repeatedly that I have no problem with people worshipping however they see fit so long as it is decently and with order. If you dance, then dance. If you sway and lift your arms above your head, so be it. If you sit completely still and commune with the Lord that way - then fine.


Again, observation. If the shoe don't fit....
You do realize i could say the same here about you. Concern? Why are you concerned?

You say:

I'm wondering where this comes from. I've seen this same kind of reaction on other threads--miracles, healings, gifts....etc. I'm wondering why you seem resistant and why you assume people are passing judgment.

Resistant to WHAT exactly?

We all come from different backgrounds. Many things is a familiarity issue. Not just in religious worship but in life. I try very hard not to judge others and the way they handle things, the way they celebrate things. Each person is responsible for their own walk, each person has a unique walk with the Lord.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 07:23 PM
I think I need to post the link to you dancing again Slug :idea:Which link ?

Dani H
Oct 26th 2010, 07:24 PM
If only that ended the conversation....:lol:

It does for me. Which is why "you" really means "me having no opinion about it." Far as God's opinion, it's in Isaia 58 already. :)

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 07:26 PM
Which link ?

In the army gear remember??

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 07:27 PM
In the army gear remember??My brain is cramping... ??

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 07:27 PM
Concern? Why are you concerned?

Because I care about my sister....

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 07:38 PM
It was because of what was in his heart for God he really could care less. Just like a person moved by their heart for God today and they did the same... it's ONLY what's in any observer's heart that find it wrong, is where the problem is and our example is Michal. God didn't find David's praise wrong, she did... God clearly punished praise and dancing that was wrong. To many exampeles in the Bible to say otherwise... you even produce two of them for this thread.
This has become your go to excuse for all kinds of questionable behaviour. God always care what is in the heart.

So, based on this and God's clear wrathful response to praise that ins't true to Him... was David's praise, dance, and worship wrong?
If Davids actions caused another to sin was David wrong?

Besides... God was very loud and clear and was not silent about David's praise, dance, and worship... again we have Michal. What happened to her... you say she was barren, not because of David's dancing. It was because of her REACTION to David's dancing before the Lord. Imagine how God is going to feel towards you if the Lord moves a person in your church the same as David and you feel in your heart the same as Michal felt towards David. You don't think that God is going to allow that person to continue in obedience to Him and punish you for even attempting to stop them as Michal ATTEMPTED to stop David?

How was Davids behaviour obedience to God? The Lord did not instruct David to move the ark. You are hearing what you want to hear not what is there.

Don't get in God's way, dude. Let the Holy Spirit move fellow Christians who are not ashamed.
David was not allowing God to lead. David was way out in front doing what he thought was best. This is an example of a great man of God acting in the power of his flesh. When David was good he did really well and when David was wrong he really stunk up the place.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

kay-gee
Oct 26th 2010, 07:39 PM
If that ain't the truth I don't know what is! I used to sing that song in a Southern Baptist church and it was solumn and respectful but somehow singing it now, all these years later, and that song makes my bones dance! I can't stand still when I sing it, I just can't!

You gotta try Frecs. really really try! I know you can resist.

all th best...

TomH
Oct 26th 2010, 07:41 PM
I would hate to sit through a church service and think that people are wondering why I am resisting the Holy Spirit if I'm sitting between two people who are either raising their hands or dancing, and I am sitting quietly. My greatest joy in church services is watching other people react in their own way. It's the reason I sit quietly. It has nothing to do with resistance, or my quantity, or quality of faith.
I accept the fact that God has created us uniquely. The way I am is simply Gods creation.

God may be able to tell someone why I appear to be such a "stuck in the mud", quiet individual. I sure can't.

But I can assure you of one thing, it has nothing to do with how much I'm led by the Spirit.

Enjoy the dance and rest assured that I am with you in Spirit.

Vhayes
Oct 26th 2010, 07:41 PM
Because I care about my sister....
What is your concern regarding? What do you feel that I am resistant to?

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 07:43 PM
What is your concern regarding? What do you feel that I am resistant to?

I expressed that as best I could before and it upset you. I'll leave it at that.

(oh, and your PM is full and not accepting messages.)

karenoka27
Oct 26th 2010, 07:43 PM
I would hate to sit through a church service and think that people are wondering why I am resisting the Holy Spirit if I'm sitting between two people who are either raising their hands or dancing, and I am sitting quietly. My greatest joy in church services is watching other people react in their own way. It's the reason I sit quietly. It has nothing to do with resistance, or my quantity, or quality of faith.
I accept the fact that God has created us uniquely. The way I am is simply Gods creation.

God may be able to tell someone why I appear to be such a "stuck in the mud", quiet individual. I sure can't.

But I can assure you of one thing, it has nothing to do with how much I'm led by the Spirit.

Enjoy the dance and rest assured that I am with you in Spirit.

well said! Thanks for sharing!:hug:

Vhayes
Oct 26th 2010, 07:46 PM
I expressed that as best I could before and it upset you. I'll leave it at that.

(oh, and your PM is full and not accepting messages.)
Thank you for letting me know about the pm box.

And no - I am not upset. When I get upset, there is no doubt in ANYONE'S mind that I am. What I am is confused.

You may have expressed it but this is what I see/hear.
You are resistant to the way "I" worship so I'm really concerned about you.

Allow people the grace to be moved as the Spirit wills. If that means sitting completely motionless, then that can be just as filled with God as dancing or shouting.

kay-gee
Oct 26th 2010, 07:50 PM
Roger... in an earlier post you presented examples of dancing that the Lord reacted to in negative ways. You brought up two examples and they are good examples BUT they are examples of dancing that is not of God and IS in the flesh. So, no wonder God was angry.

BUT, we're talking about David and NOW you state, was God pleased with Davids dancing... He sure wasn't pleased with the dancing done in your other two examples and reacted to it.

So... did God ever tell David to stop praising, dancing, and worshiping Him the way that he did? Yes or no, please.

DANCING IS OF THE FLESH!!!! That is what notuptome and I have been saying all along. It is a fleshly activity. God isn't interested. Just because David did something, does not make it a tenet of NT church. Ding ding! surprise!!!
Ummm Slug1 There was a change over. We are in the NT church. New rules new pattern. We now worship IN Spirit and truth. If God was placated and appeased with noise and dancing, then He could have just stuck with that. We're told He is seeking a completely diffrent kind of worshipper. One that worhips in spiit and in TRUTH! Besides. David was an adulterer and a killer. She we copy that as well? I mean good grief slug!

all the best...

divaD
Oct 26th 2010, 07:52 PM
Just for the record, I have never danced before the Lord, but I see nothing wrong with it, as long as it's not taken way out of hand, such as being so immersed in it, that a person couldn't stop if they wanted to.

Notice in that passage 2 Samuel 6, that even tho David was expressing his joy unto the LORD via dancing, he was also in very control of his senses. Notice what he then did in verses 16-19.

2 Samuel 6:17 And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.
18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts.
19 And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.


The point I'm trying to make, when I was Charismatic I witnessed many folks dancing while being in like a trance for very long periods of time. This would be unlike what David was doing. He wasn't in a trance like state waiting to snap out of it. Otherwise he couldn't have performed the burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. Would he have still been dancing during the offerings?

-SEEKING-
Oct 26th 2010, 07:53 PM
DANCING IS OF THE FLESH!!!!

What does that mean? Isn't eating, of the flesh as well? Can you explain a little more?

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 07:54 PM
Then David was good he did really well and when David was wrong he really stunk up the place.

For the cause of Christ
RogerNo doubt on that.

We're talking about the praise, dance and worship that he did though. Michal got the wrath of God because of her attitude and reaction toward David for his open and selfless worship before the Lord.

You don't think that if a person is doing the same in your church and you're attitude toward them is the same as Michal's toward David... that you won't have a bad day or maybe a bad year, or maybe a bad rest of your life?

God was real serious in His reaction (and punishment) for Michal's reaction toward David's freedom before the Lord in praise to Him.

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 07:55 PM
DANCING IS OF THE FLESH!!!! ..Everything you do involves the flesh!!

kay-gee
Oct 26th 2010, 07:58 PM
In 1st Corinthians 11 Paul is scolding the church for abuses of the Lords supper. In verse 22, he says do you not have houses to eat and drink in. You see...eating and drinking are flesh activities. I think this statement is very telling and lays down a good principle for us.

Do you not have dance halls to dance in?

Do you not have sporting events to hoot and holler at?

That does not belong in the assembly of the saints. Leave that outside.

all the best...

Slug1
Oct 26th 2010, 07:58 PM
DANCING IS OF THE FLESH!!!! That is what notuptome and I have been saying all along. It is a fleshly activity. God isn't interested. Just because David did something, does not make it a tenet of NT church. Ding ding! surprise!!!
Ummm Slug1 There was a change over. We are in the NT church. New rules new pattern. We now worship IN Spirit and truth. If God was placated and appeased with noise and dancing, then He could have just stuck with that. We're told He is seeking a completely diffrent kind of worshipper. One that worhips in spiit and in TRUTH! Besides. David was an adulterer and a killer. She we copy that as well? I mean good grief slug!

all the best...I commited sexual immorality to... I repented, I paid my consequence God laid on me... I move forward and God is using me in ways I never imagined... miraclulous ways. I speak my testimony openly before any and all who listen.

I am a killer too... do you want to know how many I have killed? God kills all the time and I was nothing but a means He used to remove evil from this earth. I will go so far as to say that I am very proficient in killing evil doers.

Your point about David's sin? Did God take away the heart in David that was like His own heart?

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 07:59 PM
Everything you do involves the flesh!!

Speak for yourself. Some of us have been elevated to the level of pure energy. Keep working at it and you too can leave your flesh behind! ;) :lol:

Firefighter
Oct 26th 2010, 08:00 PM
DANCING IS OF THE FLESH!!!! That is what notuptome and I have been saying all along. It is a fleshly activity. God isn't interested. Just because David did something, does not make it a tenet of NT church. Ding ding! surprise!!!
Ummm Slug1 There was a change over. We are in the NT church. New rules new pattern. We now worship IN Spirit and truth. If God was placated and appeased with noise and dancing, then He could have just stuck with that. We're told He is seeking a completely diffrent kind of worshipper. One that worhips in spiit and in TRUTH! Besides. David was an adulterer and a killer. She we copy that as well? I mean good grief slug!

all the best...

I grew up in a church that thought pianos and drums were "of the flesh", so who decides? At least we are told to dance in the Bible. I am not sure if drums are mentioned at all, and I know pianos aren't.

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 08:07 PM
Do you not have dance halls to dance in?

Why do you have drums as an avatar?? Playing that music is of the flesh you know?? :hmm:

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 08:10 PM
Speak for yourself. Some of us have been elevated to the level of pure energy. Keep working at it and you too can leave your flesh behind! ;) :lol:

YES!!!!!

:lol:

I am spirit captured in the flesh :yes: for now at least :D

amazzin
Oct 26th 2010, 08:10 PM
I grew up in a church that thought pianos and drums were "of the flesh", so who decides? At least we are told to dance in the Bible. I am not sure if drums are mentioned at all, and I know pianos aren't.

Just so everyone knows and doesn't get offended. I raised my hands, shouted and danced in church on Sunday. Next week I'll do the same. Behind me there are some who do not and I love them and WILL lay down my life for them because I know their hearts are right with God.

On the platform the music is loud, electric guitars blasting, drums pounding and bass so low that it would kick start anyone who has a heart attack. Behind me there are those who cover their ears and mumble beneath their breath. I love them and WILL lay down my life for them because I know their hearts are right with God.

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 08:13 PM
Do you not have dance halls to dance in?

Do you not have sporting events to hoot and holler at?


I'd rather worship my God with dance than go to a dance hall and dance as the world dances.
I'd rather hoot and holler for my God and send the Enemy running...than give all my energys...and praises...to a bunch of athletes.

I've been set apart from the world. I am in the world but not of it. I do not find my pleasure in worldly things but in heavenly things. Why should I cheapen myself in the world's venues thus devaluing what I give to my God?

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 08:17 PM
Just so everyone knows and doesn't get offended. I raised my hands, shouted and danced in church on Sunday. Next week I'll do the same. Behind me there are some who do not and I love them and WILL lay down my life for them because I know their hearts are right with God.

On the platform the music is loud, electric guitars blasting, drums pounding and bass so low that it would kick start anyone who has a heart attack. Behind me there are those who cover their ears and mumble beneath their breath. I love them and WILL lay down my life for them because I know their hearts are right with God.So true amazzin.... I have been invited to dance at a gathering on Saturday, and I know that there is one person who objected to me being invited to do this.... because he'd rather have a sermon fill that spot. I have to be obedient to what God has gifted / talented / called / blessed me to do.... but God has given me word to speak, and so I shall do.... I am merely sharing with them, the way I worship God, and I am so glad that we are not all the same.... how immensely boring life would have been, were we all the same ...:o

Firefighter
Oct 26th 2010, 08:25 PM
I am often amazed at people on both sides of this issue. How is it that God has gifted us all differently, called us differently, and has given us all different talents and yet everyone needs to worship exactly the same way? I have felt and seen God move greatly in liturgical churches, pentecostal churches and everything in between.

amazzin
Oct 26th 2010, 08:30 PM
I am often amazed at people on both sides of this issue. How is it that God has gifted us all differently, called us differently, and has given us all different talents and yet everyone needs to worship exactly the same way? I have felt and seen God move greatly in liturgical churches, pentecostal churches and everything in between.

Amen!!!! Here-here

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 08:39 PM
I am often amazed at people on both sides of this issue. How is it that God has gifted us all differently, called us differently, and has given us all different talents and yet everyone needs to worship exactly the same way? I have felt and seen God move greatly in liturgical churches, pentecostal churches and everything in between.. It depends on your definition of worship.... What is worship?? It is an action, but what??
Worship is obedience.... :idea:
We are all called to be obedient to do what God calls us to do, That is worship,,, not the dance, not the lifting of hands, not the stark face, not the hymns sung without music.... :D
To dance is the way I am free and called to worship,
my friend does not share that same calling,,,, he was called to be obedient in making money available for hospital treatment for another person.

It is not in what we do, BUT in that we do.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 08:41 PM
I am often amazed at people on both sides of this issue. How is it that God has gifted us all differently, called us differently, and has given us all different talents and yet everyone needs to worship exactly the same way? I have felt and seen God move greatly in liturgical churches, pentecostal churches and everything in between.
Yet we must all be saved through the blood of Christ. We all have only One head of the church. We all have only One object of our worship. Diversity within the body yet only one body. We enter at the straight gate and the broad way is the way to destruction.

I am always amazed at what calls itself Christian these days and is received as such. Goats are not able to be discipled only sheep.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2010, 08:44 PM
I am always amazed at what calls itself Christian these days and is received as such. Goats are not able to be discipled only sheep.

For the cause of Christ
RogerLORD have MERCY :pray:
HE came for the lost, not the saved :idea:

Frecs
Oct 26th 2010, 09:06 PM
I am always amazed at what calls itself Christian these days and is received as such. Goats are not able to be discipled only sheep.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And we "Penties" as some like to call us are accused of being judgmental.....wow....

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 09:16 PM
LORD have MERCY :pray:
HE came for the lost, not the saved :idea:
Indeed but the saved ought not to look like and act like the lost. Where's the change of 2 Cor 5:17?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 09:20 PM
And we "Penties" as some like to call us are accused of being judgmental.....wow....
Just saying that putting a "Jesus" label on it don't necessariarly make it Christian. Examining fruit is not being judgmental just wise in the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

amazzin
Oct 26th 2010, 09:21 PM
Indeed but the saved ought not to look like and act like the lost. Where's the change of 2 Cor 5:17?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Stop judging what you don't understand Roger. Times like this, its best you keep those comments to yourself.

Servant89
Oct 26th 2010, 09:37 PM
What is wrong with sitting still and letting our spirits do the dancing?!

all the best...

Mk 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mk 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Lk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Ex 17:11 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.

When someone filled with the Holy Spirit is prophesying about lifting holy hands in the Bible... we better pay attention.

shalom

ProDeo
Oct 26th 2010, 09:39 PM
I was the EXACT same way. Brother... it's a bondage.
Where exactly does Scripture teach this?


God ins't only in the privacy of your home... He's in you so when you're outside and He feels jubilant and wants to express it... that bondage stops you.
That word again. Some like it emotional noisy, I like it emotional silent.


Usually embarrasment is the lead bondage and you just have to bind it in the name of Jesus and loose a boldness to be free and allow the Holy Spirit to move ya.

I can't find the phrase "bind in the name of Jesus" in Scripture. Perhaps you can elaborate.

Servant89
Oct 26th 2010, 09:39 PM
OT is type and shadows (incense and sacrifice) of the real thing (prayer and lifting up of our hands),

Ps 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Shalom

Vhayes
Oct 26th 2010, 09:42 PM
I am often amazed at people on both sides of this issue. How is it that God has gifted us all differently, called us differently, and has given us all different talents and yet everyone needs to worship exactly the same way? I have felt and seen God move greatly in liturgical churches, pentecostal churches and everything in between.

Yes!!!

We are not carbon copies of each other - so why oh why do we thing we should all "act" the same?

While a liturgical service may make some scratch their heads and say, "What is the good or the joy in that?" it may just be what someone seeking Christ needs.

While a Pentecostal service may make some scratch their heads and say, "What in the world do you need all that for?" it make just be what someone seeking Christ needs.

We are different people. God knows this.

ProDeo
Oct 26th 2010, 09:49 PM
Go to my post #21 then.... that bondage reply was in direct reply to Rebel's post.

Nothing to do with baptism nor gifts.

When a church orders people to NOT lift hands in praise/worship and then you grow up in this and when you discover that you are in freedom to do it if you want and are led to but you DON'T because of what the church MADE you do to suit their rules and order of worship... that is bondage. What their rules were and what their order was stops you from any freedom to worship as led and just can't do it or feel wrong when you do it? Then the bondage is holding you back.

That's what my answer was all about.

You have it wrong my well meaning friend. I am part of the charismatic movement for 30+ years. I am usually about the only one not lifting my hands. But I surely enjoy the ones who do.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2010, 09:51 PM
Stop judging what you don't understand Roger. Times like this, its best you keep those comments to yourself.
I am not judging despite the accusation. Jesus spoke in Mat 7:16-23 of knowing good fruit from bad fruit. In the end Jesus will separate the pretenders out from the believers. Jesus not me.

I am a little suprised by the reaction. In any event your admonition is received and I shall endeavor to back away from the edge. I have no desire to cause undue strife. Thank you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

MoreMercy
Oct 27th 2010, 04:03 AM
I do not know what raising hands in worship is symbolic of in history.
Neither do I know why I find myself raising my hands n arms sometimes when I praise Him, but I do 'sometimes'.
If I analyze it, I guess I am reaching for His holy, holy, holiness.


Father bless.

GitRDunn
Oct 27th 2010, 04:13 AM
I am often amazed at people on both sides of this issue. How is it that God has gifted us all differently, called us differently, and has given us all different talents and yet everyone needs to worship exactly the same way? I have felt and seen God move greatly in liturgical churches, pentecostal churches and everything in between.
I could not have said it better myself. Thank you UM.

Ta-An
Oct 27th 2010, 10:57 AM
Indeed but the saved ought not to look like and act like the lost. ?

RogerSo I assume you wear a straight jacket :hmm: ... and I assume you picture sheep to look like you do :hmm:.... what gives you the assurance that you fit the sheep-suit??;)

Servant89
Oct 27th 2010, 11:07 AM
The Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, said it (not me)...

1 Tim 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

That last part means, don't get angry about it and don't question it, sort of like the Nike commercial... Just Do It.

What's the use of having a Bible, the Word of God, if we are just going to ignore it?

Mic 2:7 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=33&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) O thou that art named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? are these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly?

Shalom

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 12:27 PM
Where exactly does Scripture teach this?


That word again. Some like it emotional noisy, I like it emotional silent.



I can't find the phrase "bind in the name of Jesus" in Scripture. Perhaps you can elaborate.Everything we do as a Christian is done in Jesus's name! You want to take back what the enemy has taken from you? Then do this to him and then get rid of him so you have freedom:

Matthew 12:29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

As for binding and loosing:

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16:18-20&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-23688a)] in heaven.”

I did use the word bondage and oppression can be used as well if that meaning is better understood.

Jesus Christ "loosed" that bent over women who had a spirit oppressing her and she was able to immediately stand up (Luke 13).

If anyone has a fear (they are bound by fear, or fear oppresses them) then loose BOLDNESS instead.

The way you described an inability to praise before others seemed just that... an inability. Is this inability because of a fear, a lack of desire for any reason, etc? If so... how to remove this inability? Do you want to remove it? I guess if you do not want to and never plan to praise and worship in a physical manner but only silently before others and not care what they think of you... then disregard this post :P

You say you like it emotionally silent... I didn't and the way I grew up kept me silent. The church rules instilled fear in me because IF I was to feel MOVED by the Holy Spirit and yell out a HALLELUJAH... well, they'd have kicked me out of the church for being out of order. Being out of their dictated order was a sin practically. Anyone who was led by and moved by the Holy Spirit... well, that was against the rules of the church and you were MADE to stop. So, as a child... I don't want to get yelled at, embarrased before the WHOLE congregation for being obedient to God... as a child, I wasn't strong/mature enough to do what was RIGHT before God because of the RULES. This stronghold built in me, this oppression that controlled me, took oh... 30 so years to overcome and take that stronghold down. I took back from satan what he held that was mine to enjoy and that was my FREEDOM in the movement of the HOLY SPIRIT IN ME!!

This fear, this bondage, this oppression stayed dominate in my life for MANY years afterwards (as I said, 30yrs or so) and I was held down by those church rules from many years ago. Now I am free from this bondage of fearing to raise my hand to God in surrender, in praise, in honor and most of all in lifting the GLORY up to Him in worship.


You have it wrong my well meaning friend. I am part of the charismatic movement for 30+ years. I am usually about the only one not lifting my hands. But I surely enjoy the ones who do.

OK... now that I came upon this post... HALLELUJAH :pp :lol:

I know what you mean though... I am the least charimatic in the church that God has me serving Him! I truly KNOW exactly what you mean then after reading this post (2nd quote).

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 12:35 PM
We all know the truth about what sheep look like based on scripture. Who cares what we look like... it's inside of us that God looks at.

There is no mold for a Christian... the Holy Spirit fits inside any who accept Christ and what we look like on the outside has NO effect on who we are in Christ.

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 12:45 PM
So I assume you wear a straight jacket :hmm:
How do you arrive at that conclusion?

... and I assume you picture sheep to look like you do :hmm:
While I certainly hope that I do not look, act or smell like a goat there is a diverse universe of what sheep look like. Not all are fluffy white. Jesus said He knows who are His sheep and the sheep hear His voice. John 10:27

.... what gives you the assurance that you fit the sheep-suit??
The Holy Spirit of course. Rom 8:16 And it's not a suit because Christ has made me a new creature. 2 Cor 5:17

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 01:16 PM
We all know the truth about what sheep look like based on scripture. Who cares what we look like... it's inside of us that God looks at.

There is no mold for a Christian... the Holy Spirit fits inside any who accept Christ and what we look like on the outside has NO effect on who we are in Christ.
I agree that Christ will save even the vilest of sinners. Paul essentially say this in 1 Tim 1:15. But sinners are expected to change, that repent thing that was part of the call to salvation.

God does not dwell in polluted temples. 2 Cor 6:11-18. I especially like what is written in 2 Cor 7:1 "let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God". God cleansed the tabernacle before He entered it. Ex 40:34-38

We are re-made to fit God. God is not re-made to fit us. The mold for the Christian is Christ. Rom 8:29 "conformed to the image of His Son".

I think the Lord of Hosts does indeed care that we represent Him in the best possible manner.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Frecs
Oct 27th 2010, 01:27 PM
I agree that Christ will save even the vilest of sinners. Paul essentially say this in 1 Tim 1:15. But sinners are expected to change, that repent thing that was part of the call to salvation.

God does not dwell in polluted temples. 2 Cor 6:11-18. I especially like what is written in 2 Cor 7:1 "let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God". God cleansed the tabernacle before He entered it. Ex 40:34-38

We are re-made to fit God. God is not re-made to fit us. The mold for the Christian is Christ. Rom 8:29 "conformed to the image of His Son".

I think the Lord of Hosts does indeed care that we represent Him in the best possible manner.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

His Fire cleanses me daily, Roger. I do the best I can to press in closer and closer to Him daily. He is the judge of how well I represent Him.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 01:28 PM
I agree that Christ will save even the vilest of sinners. Paul essentially say this in 1 Tim 1:15. But sinners are expected to change, that repent thing that was part of the call to salvation.

God does not dwell in polluted temples. 2 Cor 6:11-18. I especially like what is written in 2 Cor 7:1 "let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God". God cleansed the tabernacle before He entered it. Ex 40:34-38

We are re-made to fit God. God is not re-made to fit us. The mold for the Christian is Christ. Rom 8:29 "conformed to the image of His Son".

I think the Lord of Hosts does indeed care that we represent Him in the best possible manner.

For the cause of Christ
RogerHooah!

Representing in the best possible manner is not based on an image or what we look like though. I can look at a person in church and see their nice clothes, styled hair, that Bible in their hands and God can't move in and through them in the least bit because the pollution you mentioned SATURATES their insides.

They sure look like a Christian though and that is the problem. For some, Christianity is based on how one looks, not how one is moved by Christ to do His work and shed His light upon the earth through them. All they care about is how they look to the eye's of others. They might even think that Christ only moves on Sunday's and only within the confines of the walls of their church.

I don't care how I look, right now I haven't shaved in about 10 days and my scruffy face will be at church tonight during our Family Booster Service and I'll be praising and worshiping God from my heart. With hands raised or hands down, it don't matter!! I'll be ministering to and praying for any who come forward to the altar and I'll be moved as the Holy Spirit moves me and I'll pray words that the Holy Spirit puts in my heart to pray. I'll weep openly before the entire church as I pray and my hairy face, jeans and t-shirt don't stop God from using me any less than if I was freshly shaved, showered, dressed in a suit/tie and I was actually wearing shoes.

I will do the same on the streets when led because Christ is always in me, not only on Sunday's within the confines of the walls of the church I serve God in. I serve God 24/7 and He works 24/7 and I allow myself to be moved 24/7.

Just this morning, God woke me at 2:18am... I had to go pray for something concerning our church... so, I went downstairs to the spare bedroom and prayed and was in God's presence till He was done having me pray. I went back to bed at 3:19am... guess it took me a minute to get back upstairs :lol:

Anyway... God's image is the inside of us as we conform from the inside... not the outside. How we look on the outside don't help us as Christians, only how we are allowing Christ to conform us to Him on the inside of us.

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 03:27 PM
Hooah!

Representing in the best possible manner is not based on an image or what we look like though. I can look at a person in church and see their nice clothes, styled hair, that Bible in their hands and God can't move in and through them in the least bit because the pollution you mentioned SATURATES their insides.

They sure look like a Christian though and that is the problem. For some, Christianity is based on how one looks, not how one is moved by Christ to do His work and shed His light upon the earth through them. All they care about is how they look to the eye's of others. They might even think that Christ only moves on Sunday's and only within the confines of the walls of their church.

I don't care how I look, right now I haven't shaved in about 10 days and my scruffy face will be at church tonight during our Family Booster Service and I'll be praising and worshiping God from my heart. With hands raised or hands down, it don't matter!! I'll be ministering to and praying for any who come forward to the altar and I'll be moved as the Holy Spirit moves me and I'll pray words that the Holy Spirit puts in my heart to pray. I'll weep openly before the entire church as I pray and my hairy face, jeans and t-shirt don't stop God from using me any less than if I was freshly shaved, showered, dressed in a suit/tie and I was actually wearing shoes.

I will do the same on the streets when led because Christ is always in me, not only on Sunday's within the confines of the walls of the church I serve God in. I serve God 24/7 and He works 24/7 and I allow myself to be moved 24/7.

Just this morning, God woke me at 2:18am... I had to go pray for something concerning our church... so, I went downstairs to the spare bedroom and prayed and was in God's presence till He was done having me pray. I went back to bed at 3:19am... guess it took me a minute to get back upstairs :lol:

Anyway... God's image is the inside of us as we conform from the inside... not the outside. How we look on the outside don't help us as Christians, only how we are allowing Christ to conform us to Him on the inside of us.
I am having difficulty with the attitude that seems widespread in the modern church that we can do as we please and not offend the Lord. What of Titus 2? I'm not saying that the pretenders in their suits and ties are any better but if we have the means to look sharp ought we not to do it? I know some perhaps many cannot afford $1,000 suits and $500 shoes like a lot of the preachers and I would not advocate taking food away from the children for nice Sunday duds but if one shows up in jeans and a t-shirt when they have dress slacks and a shirt with a collar at home I wonder. Some are so casual that they show up in their golfing attire so they don't need to change before they go out on the course. I'm sure God is impressed that they were able to squeeze Him into their schedule. Are we doing God a favor by showing up at church? Christ left His glory in heaven for the cross of Calvary for us and this is how we show Him respect?

I understand those who are into big game hunting who grow beards as part of a ritual before they go hunting. I do not understand those who boast and brag about their slovenly appearance. In the OT the Jew was expected to offer his best to the Lord not the stuff he could not use or sell. No spots or blemishes only first rate stuff.

I happen to think that what we are on the inside is evidenced on the outside. We are lights set on the hill for all to see. Lights are of no value if they are hidden under a basket.

I always appreciate your zeal. I'm just asking questions that don't add up to me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ta-An
Oct 27th 2010, 03:30 PM
Mercy is falling is falling is falling

Mercy it falls like a sweet spring rain

Mercy is falling is falling all over me

Hey yo. I receive Your mercy. Hey yo. I receive Your grace.

Hey yo. I will dance forevermore.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 03:49 PM
I always appreciate your zeal. I'm just asking questions that don't add up to me.
Well Roger... seems you are doing multiplication and I'm sticking to addition :lol:

If I roll out of bed in the morning and go to church in my pajamas, God is going to use me the same way He'd use me if I went to church... shaved, showered, and in my best suit.

God don't care what I look like or how I dress or if I shave or even shower for that matter. Only MAN cares and I don't care what man cares about. I will respect a standard man may set such as DON'T COME TO CHURCH in pajama's but the fact remains... if I did, God would move me and work through me the same.



I happen to think that what we are on the inside is evidenced on the outside. We are lights set on the hill for all to see. Lights are of no value if they are hidden under a basket.
This don't add up to me as it does for you... to me, the light shines from within us and it don't matter the cover on the outside. That cover only hides what's on the inside. If the inside is polluted, the cover makes the pollution look GREAT.

Frecs
Oct 27th 2010, 03:51 PM
I am having difficulty with the attitude that seems widespread in the modern church that we can do as we please and not offend the Lord. What of Titus 2? I'm not saying that the pretenders in their suits and ties are any better but if we have the means to look sharp ought we not to do it? I know some perhaps many cannot afford $1,000 suits and $500 shoes like a lot of the preachers and I would not advocate taking food away from the children for nice Sunday duds but if one shows up in jeans and a t-shirt when they have dress slacks and a shirt with a collar at home I wonder. Some are so casual that they show up in their golfing attire so they don't need to change before they go out on the course. I'm sure God is impressed that they were able to squeeze Him into their schedule. Are we doing God a favor by showing up at church? Christ left His glory in heaven for the cross of Calvary for us and this is how we show Him respect?

I understand those who are into big game hunting who grow beards as part of a ritual before they go hunting. I do not understand those who boast and brag about their slovenly appearance. In the OT the Jew was expected to offer his best to the Lord not the stuff he could not use or sell. No spots or blemishes only first rate stuff.

I happen to think that what we are on the inside is evidenced on the outside. We are lights set on the hill for all to see. Lights are of no value if they are hidden under a basket.

I always appreciate your zeal. I'm just asking questions that don't add up to me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, I hear your heart, I truly do. I think we should give God our best – our best efforts, our best talents, our best appearance, and our best worship. When I was reading through Leviticus this year I was again struck by God’s instructions on the building of the tabernacle. The best materials were on the inside and the plain unadorned materials were on the outside. So when the tabernacles was set up you have the gold covered ark, expensive skins and fabrics covering that, and then the “plain brown wrapper” over that so that only the priests going in to the Holy of Holies could see the magnificence. The Israelites did give their best, but it wasn’t visible to the average dude on the street. We are to be a light on the hill—not our fancy clothes or expensive jewelry or expensive homes. Our zeal for God and our heart for those He loves is what should shine forth like the dawn. There is no more honor in wearing expensive clothes to church as street clothes nor is there dishonor in wearing your workday mechanics clothes. Come as you are and give God the respect of answering the trumpet call to worship.

Ta-An
Oct 27th 2010, 04:02 PM
Roger (((HUG))) .
May the Lord bless you in the way you worship Him and seek only for Him not to be dishonoured and for us not to come under condemnation.

Abiding in His love.
Ta-An

Free Indeed
Oct 27th 2010, 04:06 PM
God don't care what I look like or how I dress or if I shave or even shower for that matter. Only MAN cares and I don't care what man cares about.

I'm not sure that's completely correct. The Apostle Paul, for example, charged Christians with dressing modestly. Obviously, this doesn't require a tuxedo every time we go out for a burger, but it does show that God is indeed aware of how we present ourselves in public (and in private, for that matter).

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 04:11 PM
I'm not sure that's completely correct. The Apostle Paul, for example, charged Christians with dressing modestly. Obviously, this doesn't require a tuxedo every time we go out for a burger, but it does show that God is indeed aware of how we present ourselves in public (and in private, for that matter).I dress modestly in some church's I've seen and I'll be eyeballed the whole time as a bum. Lord forbid I'm there to bring a word from God and they can't get passed my modest look.

If I was in the same attire as the entire church, would this make me acceptable then?

I was in my boxers last night at 2:18am when the Lord woke me and told me to go pray and then kept me before Him for an entire hour... the boxers were black, not my Mickey's, M&M's, or the cammoed ones... so I was modest :lol:

Frecs
Oct 27th 2010, 04:18 PM
I'm not sure that's completely correct. The Apostle Paul, for example, charged Christians with dressing modestly. Obviously, this doesn't require a tuxedo every time we go out for a burger, but it does show that God is indeed aware of how we present ourselves in public (and in private, for that matter).

Please explain the connection between dressing modestly and dressing fancy for church?

Free Indeed
Oct 27th 2010, 04:19 PM
I dress modestly in some church's I've seen and I'll be eyeballed the whole time as a bum. Lord forbid I'm there to bring a word from God and they can't get passed my modest look.



Why would anyone, especially Christians, consider someone in modest attire to be a bum? And what's wrong with welcoming bums in anyway? Jesus certainly did.

Free Indeed
Oct 27th 2010, 04:20 PM
Please explain the connection between dressing modestly and dressing fancy for church?

None. I didn't use the word "fancy", I used "modestly".

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 04:21 PM
Why would anyone, especially Christians, consider someone in modest attire to be a bum? And what's wrong with welcoming bums in anyway? Jesus certainly did.Amen, brother... when you have an answer, LET THEM KNOW what THEIR problem is please. That is what correction is all about. That way, Christ can shine through them and they stop looking at people's outsides and look at the insides as Christ does. They stop "looking" at and start welcoming anyone who is modestly dressed.

kay-gee
Oct 27th 2010, 04:21 PM
I'd rather worship my God with dance than go to a dance hall and dance as the world dances.
I'd rather hoot and holler for my God and send the Enemy running...than give all my energys...and praises...to a bunch of athletes.

I've been set apart from the world. I am in the world but not of it. I do not find my pleasure in worldly things but in heavenly things. Why should I cheapen myself in the world's venues thus devaluing what I give to my God?

We're so close, yet so far. It is of the world so why on earth should we drag it into the assembly of the church. (The called out)
Dancing is a sensual act. OK right off the bat. It pleased Herrods guest so much, JTB lost his head over it.

While you're up there in the aisles shaking what your mama gave you, do you have any idea the problem you may be causing for a brother who is there?

all the best...

Frecs
Oct 27th 2010, 04:22 PM
None. I didn't use the word "fancy", I used "modestly".

What is immodest about wearing casual clothes to church? Sorry but you aren't making sense. You are using the passage about dressing modestly to correct Slug about dressing casually to church....please explain the connection.

Free Indeed
Oct 27th 2010, 04:24 PM
What is immodest about wearing casual clothes to church?

I never said anything about casual clothes being immodest. Sorry but you're not making sense. ;-p


You are using the passage about dressing modestly to correct Slug about dressing casually to church....please explain the connection.

No, I was responding to the statement that God doesn't care about how we dress. He cares that we dress modestly, not whether or not our clothes are casual or formal.

Frecs
Oct 27th 2010, 04:25 PM
We're so close, yet so far. It is of the world so why on earth should we drag it into the assembly of the church. (The called out)
Dancing is a sensual act. OK right off the bat. It pleased Herrods guest so much, JTB lost his head over it.

While you're up there in the aisles shaking what your mama gave you, do you have any idea the problem you may be causing for a brother who is there?

all the best...

Okay, you need to get your mind out of the gutter! Nobody...nobody...is talking about "shaking what your mamma gave you" in church. Dancing before the Lord is not about dancing like they do in a bar or dance hall. You have no idea what dancing before the Lord is about, clearly. You also don't know me. I'm about as modest and careful about my modesty as a daughter of the King can get.

teddyv
Oct 27th 2010, 04:26 PM
What is immodest about wearing casual clothes to church? Sorry but you aren't making sense. You are using the passage about dressing modestly to correct Slug about dressing casually to church....please explain the connection.

If invited to a state dinner at the White House (regardless of the president :)) would you wear jeans and a T-shirt?

Frecs
Oct 27th 2010, 04:26 PM
I never said anything about casual clothes being immodest. Sorry but you're not making sense. ;-p



No, I was responding to the statement that God doesn't care about how we dress. He cares that we dress modestly, not whether or not our clothes are casual or formal.

No, I was just being a blonde! ;)

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 04:27 PM
If invited to a state dinner at the White House (regardless of the president :)) would you wear jeans and a T-shirt?No, because their standard of dress is greater than God's and they won't accept anything less. God says come as you ARE. Not as Man expects you to come.

Frecs
Oct 27th 2010, 04:29 PM
If invited to a state dinner at the White House (regardless of the president :)) would you wear jeans and a T-shirt?

You know, I'm distantly related to Barbara Bush. Never did get an invite to dinner at the house on Pennsylvania Ave. :(

I'd wear the best I had which wouldn't be considered good enough which could explain why that invite never arrived.

That said, a gentleman who works construction or as a mechanic until 6:30pm should not feel bad about coming into service at 7pm to answer the trumpet call to worship regardless of how dirty or grimmy he is.

teddyv
Oct 27th 2010, 04:31 PM
No, because their standard is greater than God's and they won't accept anything less. God says come as you ARE. Not as Man expects you to come.

Welll, none of us can stand before a holy God - I think his standard is a wee bit higher than man's.

I think just taking some time to wear some "above grade" clothes is just a visual offering of (at least my) respect towards God. It's not for other congregants.


ETA: These matters are so culture and tradition bound. Where I worked in Ghana, no one would go to church in their daily clothes. Everyone dressed in either traditional formal garb, or their Sunday best.

kay-gee
Oct 27th 2010, 04:33 PM
The Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, said it (not me)...

1 Tim 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

That last part means, don't get angry about it and don't question it, sort of like the Nike commercial... Just Do It.

What's the use of having a Bible, the Word of God, if we are just going to ignore it?

Mic 2:7 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=33&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) O thou that art named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? are these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly?

Shalom

No problem. A study of this verse reveals he is talking about prayer. It is customary then and now to raise hands in prayer.

This is scripture abuse in this modern age. Holding up Holy hands does NOT mean for waving at the members in the rock n roll band!

all the best...

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 04:37 PM
Roger, I hear your heart, I truly do. I think we should give God our best – our best efforts, our best talents, our best appearance, and our best worship.
James says for him to know good and not to do it to him it is sin. Ja 4:17 Our walk must match up with our talk.

When I was reading through Leviticus this year I was again struck by God’s instructions on the building of the tabernacle. The best materials were on the inside and the plain unadorned materials were on the outside. So when the tabernacles was set up you have the gold covered ark, expensive skins and fabrics covering that, and then the “plain brown wrapper” over that so that only the priests going in to the Holy of Holies could see the magnificence. The Israelites did give their best, but it wasn’t visible to the average dude on the street.
You are speaking of the tabernacle in the wilderness. What of the temple in Jerusalem? Set upon a hill and visible for miles around. Artisans set stone with great cunning and skill. Those that saw the outside of the temple were amazed.

We are to be a light on the hill—not our fancy clothes or expensive jewelry or expensive homes. Our zeal for God and our heart for those He loves is what should shine forth like the dawn. There is no more honor in wearing expensive clothes to church as street clothes nor is there dishonor in wearing your workday mechanics clothes. Come as you are and give God the respect of answering the trumpet call to worship.
We are not talking about those who cannot do better than to wear their work clothes to church, neatly laundered of course, we are talking of those who do not because they do not regard the Lords house. I'm thinking of Annias and Sapphira who gave less than their best to the Lord. They just thought God take it or leave it this is what I'm gonna' do. The soul that comes into Gods house in capri's and flip flops will reap what he sows before the Lord. Business executive by day and beach bum in Gods house. Be not deceived God is not mocked. Gal 6:7

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 04:38 PM
Welll, none of us can stand before a holy God - I think his standard is a wee bit higher than man's.

I think just taking some time to wear some "above grade" clothes is just a visual offering of (at least my) respect towards God. It's not for other congregants.Look... here's the deal... I too have worn shirts WITH a tie going to church (I can even prove it). I have left my shoes on the entire service before also. Yet when I go to church in jeans and a t-shirt, I am not any different, God is not any different... God doesn't use me any less than He does when I'm in a suit. My respect isn't through my attire, it's lifted up to Him in praise and worship with or without my hands held high, with or without a suit, it's all about what's in my heart.

I stand blameless before God by what's in my heart, not what's on my skin or covering my skin.

kay-gee
Oct 27th 2010, 04:44 PM
I am often amazed at people on both sides of this issue. How is it that God has gifted us all differently, called us differently, and has given us all different talents and yet everyone needs to worship exactly the same way? I have felt and seen God move greatly in liturgical churches, pentecostal churches and everything in between.

The point you need to understand UM is this. Cain and Abel had different talents (skills) one offered up acceptable offering to God, the other did NOT. It is not a skills and talents question. It is what GOD wants from us that counts. Where does this notion come from that any old thing we "feel" like doing construes ACCEPTABLE worship

I think many are good athletes. Should we insert a good ball game into the middle of the service? How about golf or video games? If not, then why not according to your reasoning.

all the best...

Firefighter
Oct 27th 2010, 04:44 PM
James says for him to know good and not to do it to him it is sin. Ja 4:17 Our walk must match up with our talk.

You are speaking of the tabernacle in the wilderness. What of the temple in Jerusalem? Set upon a hill and visible for miles around. Artisans set stone with great cunning and skill. Those that saw the outside of the temple were amazed.

We are not talking about those who cannot do better than to wear their work clothes to church, neatly laundered of course, we are talking of those who do not because they do not regard the Lords house. I'm thinking of Annias and Sapphira who gave less than their best to the Lord. They just thought God take it or leave it this is what I'm gonna' do. The soul that comes into Gods house in capri's and flip flops will reap what he sows before the Lord. Business executive by day and beach bum in Gods house. Be not deceived God is not mocked. Gal 6:7

For the cause of Christ
Roger


God forgive us. :cry:

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 04:47 PM
The point you need to understand UM is this. Cain and Abel had different talents (skills) one offered up acceptable offering to God, the other did NOT. It is not a skills and talents question. It is what GOD wants from us that counts. Where does this notion come from that any old thing we "feel" like doing construes ACCEPTABLE worship

I think many are good athletes. Should we insert a good ball game into the middle of the service? How about golf or video games? If not, then why not according to your reasoning.

all the best...I brought up David dancing earlier and you shot me down because I used an OT example... how is your example acceptable and mine not?

Because the example God set through David isn't aligned with your church rules?

Firefighter
Oct 27th 2010, 04:52 PM
The point you need to understand UM is this. Cain and Abel had different talents (skills) one offered up acceptable offering to God, the other did NOT. It is not a skills and talents question. It is what GOD wants from us that counts. Where does this notion come from that any old thing we "feel" like doing construes ACCEPTABLE worship

I think many are good athletes. Should we insert a good ball game into the middle of the service? How about golf or video games? If not, then why not according to your reasoning.

all the best...

So you do not think that you can play golf or football to the glory of God? Is it not possible to use an XBOX 360 to win others to Christ? That knocking noise you are hearing is God. He wants out of his box.

I know a preacher that recently passed out McDonald's french fries to the entire congregation before he started his sermon.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 05:00 PM
I'm thinking of Annias and Sapphira who gave less than their best to the Lord. Uh huh... and Jesus also mentioned something about those Pharisee's all showy and dropping in their riches, out of their riches, into the offering plate too (LOOK AT ME).

Your point?

Mine is, I'm not gonna be who I am not, before Christ. He know's who I am and I don't have to hide it under a standard that makes me look good before man.

I can look like a man of God before man but that matters not if on my inside, I am not the man I put on display for others to look at. God see's me for who I am.

God has me serve as an elder at the church He placed me... if I need prayer, I'm standing at the altar during altar call FOR prayer. Then, once I am ministered to, I go and minister to others... I am fully honest before God and all in the church know this also because I am transparent, they know I am just a man and God will work through me, even through my weakness.

If I'm not good to go and struggling and I'm asked how I'm doing during conversation before church... I tell them I'm lousy. I have become more tactical lately and say... I'm persevering :P

divaD
Oct 27th 2010, 05:01 PM
but if one shows up in jeans and a t-shirt when they have dress slacks and a shirt with a collar at home I wonder. Some are so casual that they show up in their golfing attire so they don't need to change before they go out on the course.


Perhaps you need to be reminded of this. The Lord doesn't look upon man the way man looks upon man, the Lord looks upon their heart, It's the Lord whom slug1 is trying to please, not man. Regardless if you disagree with the ways he's going about it. You're so focused on all the things he does that you yourself wouldn't do, while at the same time not even realizing that he speaks from the heart. I'm not going to go as far as saying that I agree with everything slug1 might do and might believe, but despite all of that, I can still discern when he is speaking from the heart. Perhaps slug1 is just being slug1. Perhaps jeans and a t shirt is whom slug1 is. Personally speaking, I haven't worn a suit since I got married in 1983. If I'm not welcome to attend any service just as I am, which might even mean jeans with holes in them, then I'm simply not going to attend..simple as that.

ProDeo
Oct 27th 2010, 06:08 PM
About clothes:

Matt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Not very modest.

kay-gee
Oct 27th 2010, 06:16 PM
Perhaps you need to be reminded of this. The Lord doesn't look upon man the way man looks upon man, the Lord looks upon their heart, It's the Lord whom slug1 is trying to please, not man. Regardless if you disagree with the ways he's going about it. You're so focused on all the things he does that you yourself wouldn't do, while at the same time not even realizing that he speaks from the heart. I'm not going to go as far as saying that I agree with everything slug1 might do and might believe, but despite all of that, I can still discern when he is speaking from the heart. Perhaps slug1 is just being slug1. Perhaps jeans and a t shirt is whom slug1 is. Personally speaking, I haven't worn a suit since I got married in 1983. If I'm not welcome to attend any service just as I am, which might even mean jeans with holes in them, then I'm simply not going to attend..simple as that.

I don't believe Slug1 needs to be a T-shirt and flip flops man. He is a military man. He knows full well about self disciplne and appearances. The general don't put up with any inconsistency in a uniform, yet GOD the creator of the universe gets an AC/DC T-shirt and flip flops??!!

Everyone talks about the heart. If I see a guy dressed up exactly like a biker, better than 50/50 chance he has the heart of a biker!

Slug1 as an elder should be setting an example to his flock, not always trying to "prove a point" to them.

all the best...

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 06:20 PM
I don't believe Slug1 needs to be a T-shirt and flip flops man. He is a military man. He knows full well about self disciplne and appearances. The general don't put up with any inconsistency in a uniform, yet GOD the creator of the universe gets an AC/DC T-shirt and flip flops??!!

Everyone talks about the heart. If I see a guy dressed up exactly like a biker, better than 50/50 chance he has the heart of a biker!

Slug1 as an elder should be setting an example to his flock, not always trying to "prove a point" to them.

all the best...I do maintain a standard... I said earlier I respect a standard. I wear pants and a shirt on Sundays. This still does not make me a better Christian before God. All it does is keep my pastor for telling me to go change :lol:

I still take my shoes off though.

Tonight... I wear jeans and a polo :P

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 06:24 PM
About clothes:

Matt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Not very modest.

Let's add this one...

Luke 11:37-45 (King James Version)

37And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat.

38And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

39And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

40Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

41But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

It's not about the outside, it's all about what's on the inside of us.

Free Indeed
Oct 27th 2010, 06:25 PM
About clothes:

Matt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Not very modest.

Actually, that's about as modest as one can get.

I'll skip the locust casserole though.

divaD
Oct 27th 2010, 06:26 PM
I don't believe Slug1 needs to be a T-shirt and flip flops man. He is a military man. He knows full well about self disciplne and appearances. The general don't put up with any inconsistency in a uniform, yet GOD the creator of the universe gets an AC/DC T-shirt and flip flops??!!

Everyone talks about the heart. If I see a guy dressed up exactly like a biker, better than 50/50 chance he has the heart of a biker!

Slug1 as an elder should be setting an example to his flock, not always trying to "prove a point" to them.

all the best...




Show me one place in the entire Bible where anyone ever wore a suit and tie. If I'm not mistaken, most men wore robes of some kind. Also, when the multitudes followed Jesus when He taught, when He performed miracles, do you think they all put on their Sunday's best outfits first? Or do you think they came as they were, and that the Lord accepted them as they were? Or do you think the Lord only had respect for those who were dressed the best?

I also noticed that you pointed out that slug1 was an elder in the church. Since I'm basically clueless here, what point is it that slug1 is trying to prove to them? I haven't read everything that slug1 has ever posted, so perhaps I'm missing a piece of the puzzle here?

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 06:29 PM
Show me one place in the entire Bible where anyone ever wore a suit and tie. If I'm not mistaken, most men wore robes of some kind. Also, when the multitudes followed Jesus when He taught, when He performed miracles, do you think they all put on their Sunday's best outfits first? Or do you think they came as they were, and that the Lord accepted them as they were? Or do you think the Lord only had respect for those who were dressed the best?

I also noticed that you pointed out that slug1 was an elder in the church. Since I'm basically clueless here, what point is it that slug1 is trying to prove to them? I haven't read everything that slug1 has ever posted, so perhaps I'm missing a piece of the puzzle here?I think he's pointing out my comments in post #191... I'm not sure.

Firefighter
Oct 27th 2010, 06:30 PM
One thing I have found to be sorely lacking is the "you must wear a suit" crowd is scriptural backing...

Free Indeed
Oct 27th 2010, 06:32 PM
One thing I have found to be sorely lacking is the "you must wear a suit" crowd is scriptural backing...

I'm not sure that anyone actually means you must wear a suit. What I'm seeing is that people are asking, "If you have a suit, why not put it on?"

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 06:35 PM
One thing I have found to be sorely lacking is the "you must wear a suit" crowd is scriptural backing...They don't need scripture... their looks and attitudes do all their speaking and if you don't comply... the looks get worse and the attitudes get worse till one of two things happen. 1) You comply or 2) You leave.

They won't even say goodbye or call you and ask why you haven't been in church.

divaD
Oct 27th 2010, 06:37 PM
I think he's pointing out my comments in post #191... I'm not sure.

That's interesting, because I never even read that post before I made post #192. I was responding to a post a few back. i hadn't even gotten up to post #191 yet. It looks like I was right tho..you are just being you.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 06:39 PM
I'm not sure that anyone actually means you must wear a suit. What I'm seeing is that people are asking, "If you have a suit, why not put it on?"Because I have a closet full of other clothes that are clean and functional. I have at least 8 pairs of pants of various colors, about 12 shortsleeved button shirts and about the same in longsleeved. All of various colors and ACTUALLY match my pants (imagine that- thanks to my wife). So why would I want to even wear the same ONE suit to church each Sunday?

Oh... I have about 15 ties too.

I do wear the same black shoes every Sunday... that count? Shoes, I'm lacking. I have a black pair and a brown pair that I can wear but I rarely wear browns. I have two pairs of sneakers... one that is sporty for everyday use and one for running (HAHAHAHAAAAA)... anyway... I also have about 4 pairs of combat boots I still wear and I wear the clean ones to church too. Honestly, I have.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 06:40 PM
That's interesting, because I never even read that post before I made post #192. I was responding to a post a few back. i hadn't even gotten up to post #191 yet. It looks like I was right tho..you are just being you.I have nothing to hide. I have learned the very hard way that anthing I hide... it maintains authority. Once exposed and confessed, I heal because all authority is removed.

divaD
Oct 27th 2010, 06:41 PM
I'm not sure that anyone actually means you must wear a suit. What I'm seeing is that people are asking, "If you have a suit, why not put it on?"



Does wearing a suit make one more holy in front of God? Or is that wearing a suit makes one look more holy in front of man?

Free Indeed
Oct 27th 2010, 06:44 PM
Because I have a closet full of other clothes that are clean and functional. I have at least 8 pairs of pants of various colors, about 12 shortsleeved button shirts and about the same in longsleeved. All of various colors and ACTUALLY match my pants (imagine that- thanks to my wife). So why would I want to even wear the same ONE suit to church each Sunday?

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against going to church dressed neatly casual. For me, I suppose it was an upbringing thing, instilled in me as a child. There are folks in my parish that come in jeans, and there others in suits. It doesn't really matter to me personally, I just sort of lament the decline of traditional western dress in general, not only in church.

Back in the good old days everybody wore a suit, tie, and hat everywhere. On the other hand, maybe I shouldn't regret the passing of the 1950's so loudly. If we were there now, most of the people on this forum would probably turn me over to McCarthy!

Firefighter
Oct 27th 2010, 06:46 PM
Wearing a suit can be just as immodest as wearing pajamas...

Free Indeed
Oct 27th 2010, 06:50 PM
Wearing a suit can be just as immodest as wearing pajamas...

Only if it is of the birthday variety.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 06:51 PM
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against going to church dressed neatly casual. For me, I suppose it was an upbringing thing, instilled in me as a child. There are folks in my parish that come in jeans, and there others in suits. It doesn't really matter to me personally, I just sort of lament the decline of traditional western dress in general, not only in church.

Back in the good old days everybody wore a suit, tie, and hat everywhere. On the other hand, maybe I shouldn't regret the passing of the 1950's so loudly. If we were there now, most of the people on this forum would probably turn me over to McCarthy!Well... read my posts earlier and in my good ole days, if I raised my hand and shouted HALLALUJAH... I'd be asked to step out of the church because that was out of their order.

Yeah, our upbringing in church has done some serious damage to many of us.

Firefighter
Oct 27th 2010, 06:51 PM
Only if it is of the birthday variety.

It can be even if it is of the Hugo Boss variety. ;)

Free Indeed
Oct 27th 2010, 06:58 PM
It can be even if it is of the Hugo Boss variety. ;)

I've never even heard of Hugo Boss. But it sounds out of my price range.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 07:03 PM
I've never even heard of Hugo Boss. But it sounds out of my price range.I had to google it... YEAH, WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY out of my price range. I'd insure a suit that costly :P

ProDeo
Oct 27th 2010, 07:34 PM
The way you described an inability to praise before others seemed just that... an inability. Is this inability because of a fear, a lack of desire for any reason, etc? If so... how to remove this inability? Do you want to remove it? I guess if you do not want to and never plan to praise and worship in a physical manner but only silently before others and not care what they think of you... then disregard this post :P

I can't ignore cause I am a rebel :P

But seriously, it's just a character thing. Unlike you I don't like to dance, absolutely have no dancing feet, not even in my youth. I don't like to speak in public, hate it, so I don't like to pray in public. Why? I don't know. And I am happy with it because I believe the Lord is happy with me as I am.


You say you like it emotionally silent... I didn't and the way I grew up kept me silent. The church rules instilled fear in me because IF I was to feel MOVED by the Holy Spirit and yell out a HALLELUJAH... well, they'd have kicked me out of the church for being out of order. Being out of their dictated order was a sin practically. Anyone who was led by and moved by the Holy Spirit... well, that was against the rules of the church and you were MADE to stop. So, as a child... I don't want to get yelled at, embarrased before the WHOLE congregation for being obedient to God... as a child, I wasn't strong/mature enough to do what was RIGHT before God because of the RULES. This stronghold built in me, this oppression that controlled me, took oh... 30 so years to overcome and take that stronghold down. I took back from satan what he held that was mine to enjoy and that was my FREEDOM in the movement of the HOLY SPIRIT IN ME!!

This fear, this bondage, this oppression stayed dominate in my life for MANY years afterwards (as I said, 30yrs or so) and I was held down by those church rules from many years ago. Now I am free from this bondage of fearing to raise my hand to God in surrender, in praise, in honor and most of all in lifting the GLORY up to Him in worship.

I hear you! It seems we are each others opposites in character (personality) and church history regarding noisy vs silent. And that is all cool within the Kingdom of God.


OK... now that I came upon this post... HALLELUJAH :pp :lol:

I know what you mean though... I am the least charimatic in the church that God has me serving Him! I truly KNOW exactly what you mean then after reading this post (2nd quote).

Gotta love you for this :spin:

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 07:36 PM
It can be even if it is of the Hugo Boss variety. ;)
Leave it to you to know the inside scoop on what suits are the suits to own. In my day you nattily dressed in a Botany 500.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 08:09 PM
They don't need scripture... their looks and attitudes do all their speaking and if you don't comply... the looks get worse and the attitudes get worse till one of two things happen. 1) You comply or 2) You leave.
And your attitude is any better than theirs? Two wrongs do not make a right. You are looking down you nose at them.

They won't even say goodbye or call you and ask why you haven't been in church.
That's because they are not praying daily for their church people. Some ministers won't even visit the hospital if it conflicts with their golf date.

Jesus wore a crown of thorns to the cross of Calvary for me. I can wear a tie to church for Him. A tie may feel worse but I do not think I would really want to find out for certain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Frecs
Oct 27th 2010, 08:24 PM
Jesus wore a crown of thorns to the cross of Calvary for me. I can wear a tie to church for Him. A tie may feel worse but I do not think I would really want to find out for certain.

A young gentleman, 6years of age, of my previous acquaintance was required to wear a tie to church every other Sunday, a Polo style the other Sundays. He called the "tie Sundays" -- "Choke for Jesus Day". :rofl:

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 08:40 PM
A young gentleman, 6years of age, of my previous acquaintance was required to wear a tie to church every other Sunday, a Polo style the other Sundays. He called the "tie Sundays" -- "Choke for Jesus Day". :rofl:
I heard that!

Probably had to keep his shoes on the whole time too.

One thing that concerns me is if I complain too much about having to dress special for church is that God may make it impossible for me to go to church. Perhaps I'll be in a hospital gown in a hospital bed or propped up in a wheel chair or have no church to attend at all. Things can always get worse sometimes very worser. Shame on me when I complain with a full cup.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Frecs
Oct 27th 2010, 08:44 PM
I heard that!

Probably had to keep his shoes on the whole time too.



Yeah, there's that too! Then, there was the 7 year old when I taught Children's Church who came in three piece suit but by the end of church I was handing his mother the tie, coat, vest, and shoes...he was ADD and we had an agreement--he kept some part of his anatomy touching his chair at all times and did not remove the shirt and pants and we were all good. :rofl: Hey, he heard every word I said so who was I to complain! :rofl:

Ta-An
Oct 27th 2010, 08:47 PM
I have to tell you this story:
My husband, a casual dresser, is the MD/Owner of a "nice" company, He accompanied his accountant to the bank to organize for the accountant to get internet access to the business account,,,, so the bank manager turns to the account ( a tie-dresser) and only talks to him, ignoring the 'boss' .... unknowingly off-cause :lol: and when the bank manager gave the pen to the accountant to sign on the 'owner' line of the paper..... he passed it on to my hubby..... the manager went RED in his face and profusely apologized !!

The last time hubby wore a dress-suit was when we got married :D
It is the heart that counts, not the suit..... :P

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 08:54 PM
Yeah, there's that too! Then, there was the 7 year old when I taught Children's Church who came in three piece suit but by the end of church I was handing his mother the tie, coat, vest, and shoes...he was ADD and we had an agreement--he kept some part of his anatomy touching his chair at all times and did not remove the shirt and pants and we were all good. :rofl: Hey, he heard every word I said so who was I to complain! :rofl:
More than can be said for a lot of adults.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 08:58 PM
And your attitude is any better than theirs? Two wrongs do not make a right. You are looking down you nose at them.

That's because they are not praying daily for their church people. Some ministers won't even visit the hospital if it conflicts with their golf date.

Jesus wore a crown of thorns to the cross of Calvary for me. I can wear a tie to church for Him. A tie may feel worse but I do not think I would really want to find out for certain.

For the cause of Christ
RogerOnce again Roger I get you because you are doing multiplication while all I can do is add... it's their attitude that is the problem, NOT their standard of dress. I am not looking down at them, I am praying that they stop looking down at others because when one of those "others" who enter their church but are not dressed up to their standards... the "others" are the ones looked down upon.

Is concern for their attitude considered an attitude on my part, or is my concern just a concern and you see this as wrong because you defend their attitude as right?

Your praying comment changed the subject but that's cool because I did mention earlier how God woke me up at 2:18am this morning to pray for our church and actually a specific person. Since I don't think anyone at our church really plays golf, I have no idea about conflictions with that.

Yes, Jesus wore a crown of thorns for me and I humble myself before Him and serve... a tie is the least He's concerned about because only what's in my heart and how I allow Christ to express Himself through me is all that matters.

Dude... you come in shorts and a tanktop and you are my brother and hugged as you enter the church. You come in one of those Hugo Boss $1000 suits and you are my brother and you are hugged as you enter the church. You come in dirty and smelly you are my brother and you get a hug at the door when you enter the church. If you're in a wheel chair and you enter from the other door with the ramp and you park at that end of the sanctuary... I go to you and give you a hug.

:hug: just because you are my brother.

In the church I described... anything LESS THAN that $1000 suit you're looked at weird until you get one or leave. You find that OK? You would feel welcomed in such a church?

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 09:16 PM
Once again Roger I get you because you are doing multiplication while all I can do is add... it's their attitude that is the problem, NOT their standard of dress. I am not looking down at them, I am praying that they stop looking down at others because when one of those "others" who enter their church but are not dressed up to their standards... the "others" are the ones looked down upon.

Is concern for their attitude considered an attitude on my part, or is my concern just a concern and you see this as wrong because you defend their attitude as right?

Your praying comment changed the subject but that's cool because I did mention earlier how God woke me up at 2:18am this morning to pray for our church and actually a specific person. Since I don't think anyone at our church really plays golf, I have no idea about conflictions with that.

Yes, Jesus wore a crown of thorns for me and I humble myself before Him and serve... a tie is the least He's concerned about because only what's in my heart and how I allow Christ to express Himself through me is all that matters.

Dude... you come in shorts and a tanktop and you are my brother and hugged as you enter the church. You come in one of those Hugo Boss $1000 suits and you are my brother and you are hugged as you enter the church. You come in dirty and smelly you get a hug at the door when you enter the church. If you're in a wheel chair and you enter from the other door with the ramp and you park at that end of the sanctuary... I go to you and give you a hug.

In the church I described... anything LESS THAN that $1000 suit you're looked at weird until you get one or leave. You find that OK?
If you look at the suit and see snob and the suit looks at you and sees low-life you are both in error. If the suit prays for you and you pray for the suit well everything changes unless you are praying out of order. I have found it is nearly impossible to have something against a brother if I pray for them. They do not even need to know I'm praying for them. I used to get mad at inconsiderate drivers on the road. Then the Lord told me to pray for them as they may be unsaved and their driving habits may put them in hell. I do not pray for their driving habits to improve but I do ask the Lord to put someone in their path that can tell them of Jesus love for their souls. Only the Lord can change the heart of a man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 09:20 PM
If you look at the suit and see snob and the suit looks at you and sees low-life you are both in error. If the suit prays for you and you pray for the suit well everything changes unless you are praying out of order. I have found it is nearly impossible to have something against a brother if I pray for them. They do not even need to know I'm praying for them. I used to get mad at inconsiderate drivers on the road. Then the Lord told me to pray for them as they may be unsaved and their driving habits may put them in hell. I do not pray for their driving habits to improve but I do ask the Lord to put someone in their path that can tell them of Jesus love for their souls. Only the Lord can change the heart of a man.

For the cause of Christ
RogerBut I don't see a snob... I see the attitude and I'm concerned about that and what that attitude does to any others that such an attitude will hurt... do you really read what I write? :P

Vhayes
Oct 27th 2010, 09:27 PM
But I don't see a snob... I see the attitude and I'm concerned about that and what that attitude does to any others that such an attitude will hurt... do you really read what I write? :P

Are you sure they have that attitude or are you assuming they do based on past bad experiences.

It really is the heart that matters. A church here where I live has a program where both men and women who have job interviews are paired up with people their size who own suits so they can wear job seeking appropriate clothing. The folks who have them donate them, permanently if the person gets the job.

That doesn't sound snobbish to me at all.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 09:31 PM
Are you sure they have that attitude or are you assuming they do based on past bad experiences.

It really is the heart that matters. A church here where I live has a program where both men and women who have job interviews are paired up with people their size who own suits so they can wear job seeking appropriate clothing. The folks who have them donate them, permanently if the person gets the job.

That doesn't sound snobbish to me at all.That don't sound it to me either... back a few of my posts is the situation I'm talking about. #202... UM started it :P

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 09:39 PM
Are you sure they have that attitude or are you assuming they do based on past bad experiences.
Prejudging another?? Perish the thought.

It really is the heart that matters.
We had a family in the church some years ago where the husband loved the Lord but his wife while saved loved tennis. She died suddenly and he burried her. The family was somewhat shocked to see that he had her burried in her tennis outfit with her favorite racket in her hand. He said he figured she should meet the Lord the way she was. Moral if there is one...what we are on the inside will show on the outside.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

kay-gee
Oct 27th 2010, 09:40 PM
OK This is where kay-gee confesses. I do not wear a suit to church. This is the tropics and we meet in a small classroom without AC and only a fan. Back home I looked forward to Sunday because it was my oppurtunity to wear a suit, being a blue collar kinda person.
This is the Bahamas. Nobody here goes to Church in T-shirt and flip flops, even though it is a beach oriented place. There is a thing called decorum. When in Rome, do as the Romans do so to speak. In lieu of the suit, which would kill me in this heat, I wear a very nice Hawaiin style button down with Dockers or such, and shoes other than sneakers. I comb my hair too. In this country, all children wear uniforms to school. It's just cultural. Clothes is a part of who you are like it or not. To give meeting with God and the saints the same care and concern you would give to going to the beach or washing the car says something about you. That's just life.

all the best...

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 09:43 PM
I can't ignore cause I am a rebel :P

But seriously, it's just a character thing. Unlike you I don't like to dance, absolutely have no dancing feet, not even in my youth. I don't like to speak in public, hate it, so I don't like to pray in public. Why? I don't know. And I am happy with it because I believe the Lord is happy with me as I am.



I hear you! It seems we are each others opposites in character (personality) and church history regarding noisy vs silent. And that is all cool within the Kingdom of God.



Gotta love you for this :spin:All I will say is that I DON'T dance :lol:

WOW... praying in public was my problem and still is sometimes. You didn't happen to go to a church in northwest NJ when you were young??

God told me that I was going to be an elder and through Him I have overcame allot of fears... many I surrendered, many I went on the offense against and utilized my authority through Christ and I am delivered. Some I could not do myself and this required deliverence by another praying over me.

Luv ya dude... we can really relate!!

Slug1
Oct 27th 2010, 09:46 PM
Moral if there is one...what we are on the inside will show on the outside.

I will have to say you are wrong Roger. God knew David's heart (even of all the sin he would do) and not even Samuel was expecting David.

notuptome
Oct 27th 2010, 10:03 PM
I will have to say you are wrong Roger. God knew David's heart (even of all the sin he would do) and not even Samuel was expecting David.
That was likely due to David's age not his attire. Paul told Timothy not to let any bother him about his age. 1 Tim 4:12 At the same time Paul told Timothy to lay hands on no man suddenly. Demonstrating the need for maturity in those who are ministering in the word of God. 1 Tim 5:23

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
Oct 27th 2010, 10:48 PM
Leave it to you to know the inside scoop on what suits are the suits to own. In my day you nattily dressed in a Botany 500.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I have ties that cost more than a Botany 500 suit, but for me to wear a Hugo Boss while ministering to the homeless would be highly immodest, just as wearing jeans and a t-shirt to a "high church" Sunday Service would be. Culture and intended audience also come into play when talking about modesty, but again, the biggest part of modesty is the heart.

TomH
Oct 27th 2010, 11:47 PM
Okay, break!!!

An old man walked into church for the first time.

He had on an old flannel shirt, jeans,(stained a little), scuffed up cowboy boots, and an old stetson hat.
He sat in the back, with his hat on his knee and quietly listened to the service.

After the service, he got up to leave and was met by an elder at the door.

The elder said to him,"I'm glad to see you today, but I must tell you we have a standard of dress here that you don't quite meet."

"I see", said the old man, "what do you think I should wear?"

The elder said, "Well, why don't you go home and pray about it and see what the Lord tells you."

The next week the old man was back.

You guessed it, same shirt, same jeans, same boots, same hat.

The elder met him before he could go in.

"I thought you were going to ask the Lord what you should wear?"

I did just that sir, as soon as I got home last week.

"Well what did the Lord tell you?"

" The Lord said He didn't know. He's never been to your church!"

tango
Oct 28th 2010, 12:19 AM
Indeed but the saved ought not to look like and act like the lost. Where's the change of 2 Cor 5:17?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

THis leads back to the question you keep getting asked but never seem to answer.

What things that "the world" does are acceptable for Christians to do? Remember that "the world" eats, drinks, sleeps, wears clothes, connects to the internet, drives cars, goes to work, earns money, pays bills, lives in houses and so on.

tango
Oct 28th 2010, 12:25 AM
I'm not sure that anyone actually means you must wear a suit. What I'm seeing is that people are asking, "If you have a suit, why not put it on?"

Why should I put on a suit just because I own a suit? If I own a suit and also own a tuxedo and a full morning suit, should I decide for myself what to wear to church or let someone else decide what they think is most appropriate for how they think I should be worshipping?

Personally I own a number of suits and usually go to church in jeans or shorts and a T-shirt. That's what I'm comfortable wearing.

Pillar
Oct 28th 2010, 02:44 AM
Why should I put on a suit just because I own a suit? If I own a suit and also own a tuxedo and a full morning suit, should I decide for myself what to wear to church or let someone else decide what they think is most appropriate for how they think I should be worshipping?

Personally I own a number of suits and usually go to church in jeans or shorts and a T-shirt. That's what I'm comfortable wearing.

Lol, I don't own a suit or a tie even, so I have no choice but to go to church in jeans and a collared shirt.

Vhayes
Oct 28th 2010, 03:07 AM
Why should I put on a suit just because I own a suit? If I own a suit and also own a tuxedo and a full morning suit, should I decide for myself what to wear to church or let someone else decide what they think is most appropriate for how they think I should be worshipping?

Personally I own a number of suits and usually go to church in jeans or shorts and a T-shirt. That's what I'm comfortable wearing.

Dude - do you REALLY own a morning suit? They are soooooooo cool.

tango
Oct 28th 2010, 03:09 AM
Dude - do you REALLY own a morning suit? They are soooooooo cool.

Nope, hence the "If I own". I do rather like the look of a full morning suit but the mountain man in me would never be comfortable actually wearing it. Truth be told I don't wear a collar these days unless it's necessary.

Slug1
Oct 28th 2010, 12:24 PM
That was likely due to David's age not his attire. Paul told Timothy not to let any bother him about his age. 1 Tim 4:12 At the same time Paul told Timothy to lay hands on no man suddenly. Demonstrating the need for maturity in those who are ministering in the word of God. 1 Tim 5:23

For the cause of Christ
RogerThe point Roger is the "appearance". If David was 30 coming out of that field from leading "sheep", he' look the same except older. Who in their right mind would allow a shepherd all dirty and stinky from being out on the fields with sheep... be anointed a King?

The point of all that scripture is that ANY attitude directed to a person based on what they "look" like is wrong. Thus my desire to point out this problem in the Body of Christ when THAT attitude is expressed around me. I see it allot... just 2 weekends ago at the State Ministers Conference, I saw the looks of being sized up by how one looks. Glad a friend of mine was there... he walked in with his jeans, western shirt, and boots, buck knife still on his hip... calm that his church was well cared for by an elder that serves at his church but concerned about the 6 sick cows on the 1400 (yes, 14hundred) head farm he runs all by his lonesome except for a few helpers. We always have a great talk and laugh. Anyway... ya look at him, smell him, you would not ever think that he's a man God uses in a mighty way to minister to that very rural community of farmers out in the middle of nowhere.

ProDeo
Oct 28th 2010, 01:25 PM
You didn't happen to go to a church in northwest NJ when you were young??
NJ = New Jersey? If so, never been in USA unfortunately. I am Dutch.

In my youth I wasn't allowed to go to church. It was a strange branch of the Apostolic movement where no new members were allowed because the "chosen Apostle" had died and none was called by the Holy Spirit to succeed. So my grandmother and mother went, my father, me and my brother were excluded. Crazy huh?

After my conversion I started to attend the "Reformed Church", Calvinist in essence because my wife (fiancee back then) went over there. But I felt much more attracted to the then popular "Youth for Christ" movement and from there on it did not take much time to eventually land in the Charismatic movement.

Slug1
Oct 28th 2010, 02:05 PM
NJ = New Jersey? If so, never been in USA unfortunately. I am Dutch.

In my youth I wasn't allowed to go to church. It was a strange branch of the Apostolic movement where no new members were allowed because the "chosen Apostle" had died and none was called by the Holy Spirit to succeed. So my grandmother and mother went, my father, me and my brother were excluded. Crazy huh?

After my conversion I started to attend the "Reformed Church", Calvinist in essence because my wife (fiancee back then) went over there. But I felt much more attracted to the then popular "Youth for Christ" movement and from there on it did not take much time to eventually land in the Charismatic movement.Soon as I read your post I did look at your location... hahaha!

yeah, church can be crazy and the more they do it their way, the crazier it is but those raised in such a church are bound by the rules, doctrine, and ways.

30 stupid years bound by a stupid rule that held my hand down in praise to God :mad: It took God to enable me to overcome the fear of simply raising my hand in worship to Him. Once freed... no fear and such freedom :pp

Last night during service I did not raise my hands at all during worship... I remained still and just let the worship minister to me, sometimes my head down and almost in tears and the worship was listened to by my heart not my ears.

I serve God at a Hispanic church and I don't speak Spanish... when the Spanish worship songs reach into my heart and take me from the outer courts through the inner courts and into the holy of holies with God... that is the Holy Spirit moving me... not the words because I don't understand them... the worship and the adoration takes me where the Holy Spirit leads me and that is into the presence of God.

Sometimes this is in reverence and in stillness as it was last night, sometimes this is in jubilation and the hands are held up high. It's all on how the Holy Spirit is moving me.

karenoka27
Oct 28th 2010, 02:12 PM
Soon as I read your post I did look at your location... hahaha!

yeah, church can be crazy and the more they do it their way, the crazier it is but those raised in such a church are bound by the rules, doctrine, and ways.

30 stupid years bound by a stupid rule that held my hand down in praise to God :mad:

Last night during service I did not raise my hands at all during worship... I remained still and just let the worship minister to me, sometimes my head down and almost in tears and the worship was listened to by my heart not my ears.
I do that sometimes as well. I just stop and listen. So beautiful

I serve God at a Hispanic church and I don't speak Spanish... when the Spanish worship songs reach into my heart and take me from the outer courts through the inner courts and into the holy of holies with God... that is the Holy Spirit moving me... not the words because I don't understand them... the worship and the adoration takes me where the Holy Spirit leads me and that is into the presence of God.
Love that song!

Sometimes this is in reverence and in stillness as it was last night, sometimes this is in jubilation and the hands are held up high. It's all on how the Holy Spirit is moving me.
Amen!

................................................

Ta-An
Oct 28th 2010, 03:10 PM
Sometimes this is in reverence and in stillness as it was last night, sometimes this is in jubilation and the hands are held up high. It's all on how the Holy Spirit is moving me.
IN THE PRESENCE (http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/heli_copter/songs.html)

In the presence of a holy God
There's new meaning now to grace
You took all my sins upon Yourself
I can only stand amazed

And I cry
holy, holy, holy God
How awesome is Your name
holy, holy, holy God
How majestic is Your reign
And I am changed in the
Presence of a holy God

In the presence of Your infinite might
I'm so small and frail and weak
When I see Your power and wisdom Lord
I have no words left to speak

In the presence of Your glory
All my crowns lie in the dust
You are righteous in Your judgments Lord
You are faithful true and just


Flat on my face

kay-gee
Oct 28th 2010, 10:39 PM
The point Roger is the "appearance". If David was 30 coming out of that field from leading "sheep", he' look the same except older. Who in their right mind would allow a shepherd all dirty and stinky from being out on the fields with sheep... be anointed a King?

The point of all that scripture is that ANY attitude directed to a person based on what they "look" like is wrong. Thus my desire to point out this problem in the Body of Christ when THAT attitude is expressed around me. I see it allot... just 2 weekends ago at the State Ministers Conference, I saw the looks of being sized up by how one looks. Glad a friend of mine was there... he walked in with his jeans, western shirt, and boots, buck knife still on his hip... calm that his church was well cared for by an elder that serves at his church but concerned about the 6 sick cows on the 1400 (yes, 14hundred) head farm he runs all by his lonesome except for a few helpers. We always have a great talk and laugh. Anyway... ya look at him, smell him, you would not ever think that he's a man God uses in a mighty way to minister to that very rural community of farmers out in the middle of nowhere.

When there are many of them and one of you, I believe the onus is on YOU to spruce up!

all the best...

Slug1
Oct 29th 2010, 02:36 AM
When there are many of them and one of you, I believe the onus is on YOU to spruce up!

all the best...Sorry... no! The attitude needs to be checked at the door and not even enter the church and they won't care what I'm wearing, like Jesus don't care what I'm wearing. All He cares about is that I'm obedient to Him, not the clothing standard of the church.

kay-gee
Oct 29th 2010, 11:23 AM
Aren't you casting a stumbling block before men and your brethern?

all the best...

Firefighter
Oct 29th 2010, 11:37 AM
Aren't you casting a stumbling block before men and your brethern?

all the best...

Are you really suggesting that Ol' Slug wearing jeans and a polo are going to make someone fall away from their faith??? Why do people always try to pull the weaker brother card when they lack scripture for their position? :B

Slug1
Oct 29th 2010, 12:13 PM
Are you really suggesting that Ol' Slug wearing jeans and a polo are going to make someone fall away from their faith??? Why do people always try to pull the weaker brother card when they lack scripture for their position? :Bit's because they have nothing to stand on except the norms of the church, the rules of the church and the way's it's always been at the church. All they want is people to be like them and if anyone either don't want to be like them, or can't be like them... the attitude either forces them out or changes them.

If they change, then we have more with an attitude that only well dressed people can be in the church.

If they don't change... well, they go... hurt once again by Christians.

Makes me sick.

Frecs
Oct 29th 2010, 12:26 PM
Reminds me of a radio broadcast of a service at Chuck Swindoll's church some years ago. You can hear the people softly murmuring because Swindoll is not on the platform. Then, the murmuring increases as something ...or someone... enters the sanctuary. This someone (according to the narrator) is a man dressed in biker's garb with a black helmet on his head, face shield down. The murmuring increases as clearly the folks are trying to decide what to do about this person....who is walking up to the platform! :eek: ...steps up on the platform....:eek: :eek: ...and to the podium :eek: :eek: :eek:...takes off his helmet and low and behold it's Swindoll!

Don't judge a book by it's cover! :rofl:

notuptome
Oct 29th 2010, 02:26 PM
Our local newspaper has a below the fold front page article on dirty dancing. The school district has issued an edict that dirty dancing at the homecoming dance will not be tolerated. Students were required to pledge that they would not engage in grinding and freaking on the dance floor. I did not check the web site to see if it's online. www.pennlive.com but it probably is.

Who is setting the example? What example are we setting? Preachers (term used very loosely) don't even have the sense of how to conduct themselves in church any more.

For the cause of Christ
Roger