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sofy
Nov 3rd 2010, 04:08 AM
at the church i attend, they push praying in the Spirit. For them, paying in the Spirit means speaking in ecstatic tongues (which i do not believe in which is why i am leaving). i don't look down on anyone who believes in this but my real question is this: other than praying in the Spirit, what else should we do in the Spirit and what exactly does this mean? Do you beleive praying in the Spirit means speaking in tongues? scripture references please :)

Lady e
Nov 3rd 2010, 04:15 AM
You do not have to pray in tongues to experience the spirit.The Holy spirit guides us in our daily lives.He will grieve you if you are in a wrong situation,he will aide you in your prayers,and let you know what you need to do.I hope you find a church that teaches the truth.GOD bless

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 05:40 AM
at the church i attend, they push praying in the Spirit. For them, paying in the Spirit means speaking in ecstatic tongues (which i do not believe in which is why i am leaving). i don't look down on anyone who believes in this but my real question is this: other than praying in the Spirit, what else should we do in the Spirit and what exactly does this mean? Do you beleive praying in the Spirit means speaking in tongues? scripture references please :)

Out of curiosity... How long did you go to this church?

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2010, 10:44 AM
at the church i attend, they push praying in the Spirit. For them, paying in the Spirit means speaking in ecstatic tongues (which i do not believe in which is why i am leaving). i don't look down on anyone who believes in this but my real question is this: other than praying in the Spirit, what else should we do in the Spirit and what exactly does this mean? Do you beleive praying in the Spirit means speaking in tongues? scripture references please :)

Although we should all have the same spirit, we do not all receive the same gifts.

1 Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Cor 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1 Cor 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Cor 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

God bless!

Firstfruits

chad
Nov 3rd 2010, 11:42 AM
Tongues is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Pray in the spirit is written in Eph 6:18 (NIV Version), but in the KJV it reads, Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the spirit.


Prayer = G4335. proseuche, pros-yoo-khay'; from G4336; prayer (worship); by impl. an oratory (chapel):--X pray earnestly, prayer.

Supplication = G1162. deesis, deh'-ay-sis; from G1189; a petition:--prayer, request, supplication.

So we pray earnestly to God with our petitions and prayer requests.

in the spirit. Some people take this to mean - as waiting on God or as lead by the Holy Spirit.




at the church i attend, they push praying in the Spirit. For them, paying in the Spirit means speaking in ecstatic tongues (which i do not believe in which is why i am leaving). i don't look down on anyone who believes in this but my real question is this: other than praying in the Spirit, what else should we do in the Spirit and what exactly does this mean? Do you beleive praying in the Spirit means speaking in tongues? scripture references please :)

sofy
Nov 3rd 2010, 11:42 AM
Out of curiosity... How long did you go to this church?

for about 8 years. Slowly but surely, God has been opening my eyes to certain things

notuptome
Nov 3rd 2010, 12:07 PM
I look at Rom 8:26 and see the Holy Spirit aiding our prayers when we cannot express to the Lord the burden on our heart. I believe that the Lord knows what is on our hearts when we cannot express it. I do not believe that the early church and the apostles ever spoke in ecstatic utterances but spoke in known languages to facilitate communication with the listeners. Peter at pentacost is a prime example.

Of what possible benefit is it to pray in a language you cannot understand? Is there a language the Lord cannot understand? I have never spoken to my earthly father is an unknown language except when I was young and had not developed language skills.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 03:48 PM
for about 8 years. Slowly but surely, God has been opening my eyes to certain thingsI see.

notuptome
Nov 3rd 2010, 03:50 PM
I see.
More slowly opening eyes?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 03:50 PM
More slowly opening eyes?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Uh... no. More curious. ;)

Slug1
Nov 3rd 2010, 05:08 PM
Of what possible benefit is it to pray in a language you cannot understand? Scripture covers this clearly Roger and it is of great benefit. Let's look at the scripture(s):

1 Cor 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Then the scripture go further and explain the benefit:

1 Cor 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

So, praying in tongues which cannot be understood, it's for the person's edification. Their spirit is being empowered by the Holy Spirit to talk directly to God. In the flesh there is no need for understanding because it's on a spiritual level, not any physical level nor emotional. They are edified on a spiritual level.


Is there a language the Lord cannot understand?

No


I have never spoken to my earthly father is an unknown language except when I was young and had not developed language skills.Why make a comment that belittles those who speak in tongues? Are you comparing them to or saying that they are infants?

Slug1
Nov 3rd 2010, 05:12 PM
at the church i attend, they push praying in the Spirit. For them, paying in the Spirit means speaking in ecstatic tongues (which i do not believe in which is why i am leaving). i don't look down on anyone who believes in this but my real question is this: other than praying in the Spirit, what else should we do in the Spirit and what exactly does this mean? Do you beleive praying in the Spirit means speaking in tongues? scripture references please :)No you do not have to pray in tongues to pray in the Spirit. Praying in the Spirit can be in tongues but not limited to tongues.

Stand by, let me look up some scripture. Roger already brought out a good one concerning the Holy Spirit making groanings for us as we can't even utter what's in our heart. So the Holy Spirit prays for us.

Edit...

1 John 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

So... how do we KNOW what is according to God's will? Well, praying with faith is God's will for us. Also praying fervently is God's will for us. How about in supplication, intercession, and thanks? All this is God's will as well which can only be know by what? By the Holy Spirit... so to do all this, you are listening to the Holy Spirit and thus, praying in the Spirit.

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+5:15-17&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-30367a)] to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

1 Timothy 2: 1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

will continue later...

notuptome
Nov 3rd 2010, 05:17 PM
Scripture covers this clearly Roger and it is of great benefit. Let's look at the scripture(s):

1 Cor 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Then the scripture go further and explain the benefit:

1 Cor 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

So, praying in tongues which cannot be understood, it's for the person's edification. Their spirit is being empowered by the Holy Spirit to talk directly to God. In the flesh there is no need for understanding because it's on a spiritual level, not any physical level nor emotional. They are edified on a spiritual level.
What does it mean to be edified? Especially edified on a spiritual level that you cannot comprehend?

Why make a comment that belittles those who speak in tongues? Are you comparing them to or saying that they are infants?
Isn't that what Paul said in verse 13 of the previous chapter?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 3rd 2010, 05:34 PM
What does it mean to be edified? Especially edified on a spiritual level that you cannot comprehend?

:lol: Experience it and know... I don't know, I don't pray in tongues. All I have is scripture that TELLS ME it is to edify those who pray in tongues. If you want to doubt scripture, do so... not my problem.

notuptome
Nov 3rd 2010, 06:32 PM
:lol: Experience it and know... I don't know, I don't pray in tongues. All I have is scripture that TELLS ME it is to edify those who pray in tongues. If you want to doubt scripture, do so... not my problem.
It is prophecy that edifies not tongues. You believe this, praying in tongues, but you don't know what it is? Scripture does not tell you to edify those who speak in tongues which you seem unable to define anyhow. Prophecy is the preaching of Gods word and this is what edifies the believer in the church. The mysteries spoken of are those things in the OT revealed as shadows that should be fulfilled in Christ. These things are now written in the word of God, NT, and made manifest for all. When the apostles spoke in tongues they spoke in human languages as Peter evidenced at pentacost. Tongues were never seen as ecstatic utterances but languages that at least one in the crowd understood and could interpret. Those who were prophets preached the word of God and taught the revealed mysteries that men should learn of Christ and His saving grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 3rd 2010, 06:41 PM
It is prophecy that edifies not tongues. Scripture clearly states differently. To edify others, that is prophecy. To be edified by God, all one does is pray and speak in tongues privately with Him. Then, they are edified, no one else.

I know exactly what tongues are, I said that "I" don't pray or speak in tongues. That is not the Gift of the Holy Spirit that God has given me. Since I have not prayed or spoken in tongues with God, I do not know what specific edification God gives to those who do. If I did receive this gift, then I would be able to experience the edifcation that scripture clearly explains is received from God.

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:15 PM
It is prophecy that edifies not tongues. You believe this, praying in tongues, but you don't know what it is? Scripture does not tell you to edify those who speak in tongues which you seem unable to define anyhow. Prophecy is the preaching of Gods word and this is what edifies the believer in the church. The mysteries spoken of are those things in the OT revealed as shadows that should be fulfilled in Christ. These things are now written in the word of God, NT, and made manifest for all. When the apostles spoke in tongues they spoke in human languages as Peter evidenced at pentacost. Tongues were never seen as ecstatic utterances but languages that at least one in the crowd understood and could interpret. Those who were prophets preached the word of God and taught the revealed mysteries that men should learn of Christ and His saving grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
But isn't that what Paul said speaking in tongues does when done privately? Edify oneself?

1 Corinthians 14:3 *But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
4 *One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

Mind you... it is better to interpret and or have it interpretted so your mind can be edified... but ones spirit can certainly be edified when praying in tongues.

As to the language issue... again a problem with what Paul wrote. I don't disagree that it can be a human language that is known to someone. That happens and has happened and it's cool. But Paul speaks of something a tad bit different.

1 Corinthians 14:2 *For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.


Why are you trying to make it a "man language" when it clearly says they are not speaking to men but to God ... no one understands.

Speaking a different language can be learned Roger... it isn't a gift of the Spirit. I can get me a Rosetta Stone and learn all sorts of different foreign tongues. But the gift of the Spirit is a gift of the Spirit... man can't learn it.

notuptome
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:21 PM
Scripture clearly states differently. To edify others, that is prophecy. To be edified by God, all one does is pray and speak in tongues privately with Him. Then, they are edified, no one else.
They are edified with an edification you cannot quantify because you have not experienced it and is exclusive to them. Why doesn't God just speak to them like He does everyone else? Through His word with the Holy Spirit? Doesn't God desire for all believers to be edified?

I know exactly what tongues are, I said that "I" don't pray or speak in tongues. That is not the Gift of the Holy Spirit that God has given me. Since I have not prayed or spoken in tongues with God, I do not know what specific edification God gives to those who do. If I did receive this gift, then I would be able to experience the edifcation that scripture clearly explains is received from God.
Scripture also clearly explains that the gift of tongues was for Jews and that the gift ended with the completion of the written revelation of Gods word.

There seems to be a lack of understanding of what Gods word is saying. 1 Cor 14:9 ...except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:24 PM
Scripture also clearly explains that the gift of tongues was for Jews and that the gift ended with the completion of the written revelation of Gods word.Clearly explains it? Uh... no it really says no such a thing. You interpret 1 Cor 13 to say that but it is clearly not clear. ;)




There seems to be a lack of understanding of what Gods word is saying. 1 Cor 14:9 ...except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That's not even close to good context Roger!

Slug1
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:31 PM
They are edified with an edification you cannot quantify because you have not experienced it and is exclusive to them. Why doesn't God just speak to them like He does everyone else? Through His word with the Holy Spirit? Doesn't God desire for all believers to be edified? Because they have a gift called Tongues and they receive edification from God. Roger, this is what scripture states... don't ask me, ask God your... WHY?


Scripture also clearly explains that the gift of tongues was for Jews and that the gift ended with the completion of the written revelation of Gods word. The perfect is Jesus and He has not retruned yet, so we still do in part.


There seems to be a lack of understanding of what Gods word is saying. 1 Cor 14:9 ...except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air.Context Roger, Paul is talking about utilizing tongues to edify the church in this scripture, thus the importance for interpretation. Either 1 or 2 ways if you read it all in context... one prays for and interprets their own tongue language or another in the church is gifted with the gift of Interpretation of Tongues.

Which I was witness to this happening during our State Ministers Conference when a man stood and spoke in tongues and then another from across the room, stood and interpreted. God is Good!

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:33 PM
But isn't that what Paul said speaking in tongues does when done privately? Edify oneself?

1 Corinthians 14:3 *But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
4 *One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

Mind you... it is better to interpret and or have it interpretted so your mind can be edified... but ones spirit can certainly be edified when praying in tongues.

As to the language issue... again a problem with what Paul wrote. I don't disagree that it can be a human language that is known to someone. That happens and has happened and it's cool. But Paul speaks of something a tad bit different.

1 Corinthians 14:2 *For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.


Why are you trying to make it a "man language" when it clearly says they are not speaking to men but to God ... no one understands.

Speaking a different language can be learned Roger... it isn't a gift of the Spirit. I can get me a Rosetta Stone and learn all sorts of different foreign tongues. But the gift of the Spirit is a gift of the Spirit... man can't learn it.

I believe Paul is referring to an unknown language here, unknown to the congregation, not unknown to man.

Slug1
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:36 PM
I believe Paul is referring to an unknown language here, unknown to the congregation, not unknown to man.Scripture says different Butch...

1 Cor 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

NO ONE UNDERSTANDS HIM... no one doesn't mean, someone on earth, it means NO ONE. It's not a language understood anywhere on earth, otherwise the scripture would say... SOMEONE understands him.

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:37 PM
I believe Paul is referring to an unknown language here, unknown to the congregation, not unknown to man.

Paul said who the language was known by... right? Paul also said who it was unknown by... right? If God knows it and man doesn't... why do we have to try and make Paul saying something that Paul didn't really say at all... and that's what you have to do to make it say what you say it says. ;)

notuptome
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:49 PM
But isn't that what Paul said speaking in tongues does when done privately? Edify oneself?

1 Corinthians 14:3 *But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
4 *One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

Mind you... it is better to interpret and or have it interpretted so your mind can be edified... but ones spirit can certainly be edified when praying in tongues.

As to the language issue... again a problem with what Paul wrote. I don't disagree that it can be a human language that is known to someone. That happens and has happened and it's cool. But Paul speaks of something a tad bit different.

1 Corinthians 14:2 *For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.


Why are you trying to make it a "man language" when it clearly says they are not speaking to men but to God ... no one understands.

Speaking a different language can be learned Roger... it isn't a gift of the Spirit. I can get me a Rosetta Stone and learn all sorts of different foreign tongues. But the gift of the Spirit is a gift of the Spirit... man can't learn it.
Rosetta Stone was not readily available in the first century.

Would you care to explain what the mysteries are that Paul is writing about in vs 2?

Would you care to explain how one is edified by something they cannot comprehend?

When the apostles exercised the gift of tongues they were in fact known languages and understood by those who heard them. Again I point to Peter at pentacost.

Paul says in 1 Cor 14:11 ...if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:50 PM
Paul said who the language was known by... right? Paul also said who it was unknown by... right? If God knows it and man doesn't... why do we have to try and make Paul saying something that Paul didn't really say at all... and that's what you have to do to make it say what you say it says. ;)

Not at all, we must keep in mind the fact that Paul is rebuking the Corinthians in this letter for among other things their abuse of the gift of tongues. He tells them it is better to prophesy than to speak in tongues. He also says that tongues is for the unbeliever, if that is the case, and tongues is a sign for the unbeliever, why would the believer pray to God in tongues? After all Paul said tongues was for the unbeliever.

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:51 PM
Rosetta Stone was not readily available in the first century.

Would you care to explain what the mysteries are that Paul is writing about in vs 2?

Would you care to explain how one is edified by something they cannot comprehend?

When the apostles exercised the gift of tongues they were in fact known languages and understood by those who heard them. Again I point to Peter at pentacost.

Paul says in 1 Cor 14:11 ...if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

This becomes clear when you look at the letter as a rebuke.

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:52 PM
Not at all, we must keep in mind the fact that Paul is rebuking the Corinthians in this letter for among other things their abuse of the gift of tongues. He tells them it is better to prophesy than to speak in tongues. He also says that tongues is for the unbeliever, if that is the case, and tongues is a sign for the unbeliever, why would the believer pray to God in tongues? After all Paul said tongues was for the unbeliever.
Before going to all the other verses... folks have to contend with the first verses that Paul spoke on about tongues. Who are they speaking to according to Paul? Who cannot understand according to Paul?

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:52 PM
Scripture says different Butch...

1 Cor 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

NO ONE UNDERSTANDS HIM... no one doesn't mean, someone on earth, it means NO ONE. It's not a language understood anywhere on earth, otherwise the scripture would say... SOMEONE understands him.

Paul could easily mean no one in the church at Corinth.

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 07:59 PM
Before going to all the other verses... folks have to contend with the first verses that Paul spoke on about tongues. Who are they speaking to according to Paul? Who cannot understand according to Paul?

Paul says they are speaking to God because He is the only one who can understand them, that's why he tells them it is better to prophesy. I don't really think that it was necessary for the Corinthians to preach the Gospel to God.

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:01 PM
Paul says they are speaking to God because He is the only one who can understand them, that's why he tells them it is better to prophesy. I don't really think that it was necessary for the Corinthians to preach the Gospel to God.

Why do you think tongues has to be preaching the gospel... that isn't written down either eh?

notuptome
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:09 PM
Because they have a gift called Tongues and they receive edification from God. Roger, this is what scripture states... don't ask me, ask God your... WHY?
So you say but God has said that the gift ceased.

The perfect is Jesus and He has not retruned yet, so we still do in part.
Jesus is coming back and when He does Joel will be fulfilled. Tongues and the other sign gifts will commence again among the Jews who will be in the millenial kingdom. So you are again not correct in your assumptions.

Context Roger, Paul is talking about utilizing tongues to edify the church in this scripture, thus the importance for interpretation. Either 1 or 2 ways if you read it all in context... one prays for and interprets their own tongue language or another in the church is gifted with the gift of Interpretation of Tongues.
All of which ceased with the completion of the NT so we must re-examine your exegesis of the relevant scriptures.

Which I was witness to this happening during our State Ministers Conference when a man stood and spoke in tongues and then another from across the room, stood and interpreted. God is Good!
While I agee God is good I cannot verify the validity of your claim regarding the conference. Seems like highly fortutious happen stance.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:10 PM
Paul could easily mean no one in the church at Corinth.The people in church don't matter... the scripture clearly states that they are talking "to God". Not those in the church.

1 Cor 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Very clear and specifc scripture... so it's not about everyone at the church not understanding, NO ONE understands. Doesn't matter what church, what location, what country. The same Tongue language will be spoke in all these location, any church and NO ONE understands because they are not speaking to anyone... they are speaking to God ONLY.

Only when Tongues is in conjunction with translation is it for the edification of the church.

Slug1
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:14 PM
So you say but God has said that the gift ceased.

Jesus is coming back and when He does Joel will be fulfilled. Tongues and the other sign gifts will commence again among the Jews who will be in the millenial kingdom. So you are again not correct in your assumptions.

All of which ceased with the completion of the NT so we must re-examine your exegesis of the relevant scriptures.

While I agee God is good I cannot verify the validity of your claim regarding the conference. Seems like highly fortutious happen stance.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger, your exegesis don't stop God from offering all the gifts of the Holy Spirit that are active in the Body of Christ today. Some don't believe this... whole churches and even whole denominations and so... due to their lack of belief, none of the gifts are active in these churches.

Many do believe, many churches believe, many denominations believe and they ALL are churches moving in the power of God as He works through them all in miraculous ways.

Again, the Great Commission requires some of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to be manifest and many are out in the world doing all the elements of the Great Commission.

Kahtar
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:17 PM
Just throwing this in here. Not looking to argue with anyone. But Paul spoke of the language of angels also, as a language he could speak.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1 Corinthians 13:1
Ever heard that language? It's clearly not a language of men.
Trying to explain what takes place in one's spirit when he speaks in tongues is like trying to explain exactly how the brain works. I could no more explain the 'mysteries' of one than I could the other, but I certainly do experience both. ;)

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:21 PM
Why do you think tongues has to be preaching the gospel... that isn't written down either eh?

Yeah it is. Paul says that tongues was for a sign.

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 ( KJV )
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

As I pointed out, according to Paul tongues was for the unbeliever, not the believer. Paul also said that tongues was for a sign to the unbeliever, we find this is Isaiah 28

Isaiah 28:1-29 ( KJV )
Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

This is what Paul was referring to when he said tongues was for a sing. It was for the unbelieving Jews, the leadership in particular. What happened in the NT times was the fulfilment of the prophecy in Isaiah. The Jews should have readily seen this prophecy fulfilled in their sight.

Paul says the message of the tongues was,

Isaiah 28:11-13 ( KJV )
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

It was the teaching of Christ, the gospel. What did Jesus say?

Matthew 11:28-30 ( KJV )
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Jesus said learn of me, Isaiah said the word of the Lord was line upon line, precept upon precept.

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:25 PM
Yeah it is. Paul says that tongues was for a sign.

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 ( KJV )
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

As I pointed out, according to Paul tongues was for the unbeliever, not the believer. Paul also said that tongues was for a sign to the unbeliever, we find this is Isaiah 28

Isaiah 28:1-29 ( KJV )
Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

This is what Paul was referring to when he said tongues was for a sing. It was for the unbelieving Jews, the leadership in particular. What happened in the NT times was the fulfilment of the prophecy in Isaiah. The Jews should have readily seen this prophecy fulfilled in their sight.

Paul says the message of the tongues was,

Isaiah 28:11-13 ( KJV )
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

It was the teaching of Christ, the gospel. What did Jesus say?

Matthew 11:28-30 ( KJV )
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Jesus said learn of me, Isaiah said the word of the Lord was line upon line, precept upon precept.

All of those are wonderful passages... but none of them answered the question. Where does it say that speaking in tongues is proclamation of the gospel?

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:28 PM
Just throwing this in here. Not looking to argue with anyone. But Paul spoke of the language of angels also, as a language he could speak.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1 Corinthians 13:1
Ever heard that language? It's clearly not a language of men.
Trying to explain what takes place in one's spirit when he speaks in tongues is like trying to explain exactly how the brain works. I could no more explain the 'mysteries' of one than I could the other, but I certainly do experience both. ;)

Actually Paul said "If" I speak, I don't think Paul was saying he speaks the language of angels, I think his point was if he could speak everything and do everything, yet did not have love, it meant nothing.

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:32 PM
All of those are wonderful passages... but none of them answered the question. Where does it say that speaking in tongues is proclamation of the gospel?

Did you read what I posted? The word of the Lord was precept upon precept, line upon line. Which ever Lord you want to say that is whether the Father or Jesus, either way it doesn't matter because we know that Jesus spoke the words of the Father. Isaiah said to whom will He teach doctrine, this is speaking of the words of Christ, it was Christ who brought the gospel.

Kahtar
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:32 PM
Actually Paul said "If" I speak, I don't think Paul was saying he speaks the language of angels, I think his point was if he could speak everything and do everything, yet did not have love, it meant nothing.No, he did not say 'if I speak'. Read it again. It clearly says 'though I speak'....But your second point is dead on. (or spot on, depending on where you're from. :D)

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:34 PM
No, he did not say 'if I speak'. Read it again. It clearly says 'though I speak'....But your second point is dead on. (or spot on, depending on where you're from. :D)

You're reading an English translation, the Greek says "If".



1 Corinthians 13:1 ( GNT )

Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament
G1437. ἐάν ean; conj. formed by combining ei (G1487), a conditional particle meaning if, and an (G302), a particle denoting supposition, wish, possibility or uncertainty. What, where, whither, whosoever. Sometimes ean is contracted to an. It differs from ei in that ei expresses a condition which is merely hypothetical, a subjective possibility; ean implies a condition which experience must determine, an objective possibility, and thus refers always to something future. In 1 Cor. 7:36, we have both conj. used, the first ei being purely hypothetical, subjective, “if he thinks in himself” (a.t.), not that he does something uncomely toward his virgin; and the second is ean, if she is actually past the age for marriage (see Rev. 2:5). Ean is usually construed with the subjunctive; in later writers also with the indic., and very rarely in Class. Gr. writers with the opt., involving wishing.

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:37 PM
Um... what has that to do with the gift of the Spirit and tongues? Clue... nothing! :)

Tongues was not for the proclamation of the gospel... that isn't even what happened at Pentecost. It simply glorified God... speaking of His might deeds. When Peter stood up... then they heard the gospel.

Acts 2:4 *And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
5 *¶Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 *And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were bewildered, because they were each one hearing them speak in his own language.
7 *And they were amazed and marveled, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 *"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
9 *"Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 *Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 *Cretans and Arabs -- we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."


Acts 2:22 *¶"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know --
23 *this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 *"And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25 *"For David says of Him, `I WAS ALWAYS BEHOLDING THE LORD IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, THAT I MAY NOT BE SHAKEN.
26 *`THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL ABIDE IN HOPE;
27 *BECAUSE THOU WILT NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW THY HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28 *`THOU HAST MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; THOU WILT MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH THY PRESENCE.´
29 *"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 *"And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS UPON HIS THRONE,
31 *he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32 *"This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 *"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 *"For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: `THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35 *UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR THY FEET."´
36 *"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ -- this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 *¶Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"


The tongues got their attention no doubt... but it wasn't the gospel. That came when God had their attention. Isn't that an accurate way to read Acts 2?

We'll talk about the precept upon precept passage in a minute... really hasn't anything to do with what we're talking about now.

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:43 PM
The word of the Lord was precept upon precept, line upon line.Folks use this passage an awful lot and I really don't think folks really understand at all what it is saying. I've marveled even at its usage as I do with your usage here.

Look closely and then answer this question... Was this a positive thing for them? What was the outcome of line upon line, precept upon precept?

For those reading along... here is the passage. Please though... look it up and read that chapter and get this. It's important.

Isaiah 28:8 For all the tables are full of filthy vomit, without a single clean place.
9 ¶"To whom would He teach knowledge? And to whom would He interpret the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just taken from the breast?
10 "For He says, `Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there.´"
11 Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
12 He who said to them, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary," And, "Here is repose," but they would not listen.
13 So the word of the LORD to them will be, "Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there," That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared, and taken captive.

Kahtar
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:46 PM
You're reading an English translation the Greek says "If".Well, let's see. That Greek word, ean, has been translated as 'before', 'but', 'except', (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever).
So which one is the correct one? You say 'if'. Numerous translations of the Bible agree with you. But numerous others have translated it as 'though', and still others as 'may'.
Question. Would Paul have mentioned the tongues of angels if they did not exist, or would he suggest the possiblility if he could not? If you don't want to believe the angels have their own language and that Paul was able to use that language that's okay, I guess. Probably just as okay for me to believe he did.

G1437 ean eh-an'
From G1487 and G302; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty: - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever). See G3361.


(ASV) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

(BBE) If I make use of the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am like sounding brass, or a loud-tongued bell.

(Bishops) Though I speake with the tongues of men and of Angels, and haue not loue, I am [as] soundyng brasse, or [as] a tincklyng Cimball:

(Darby) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

(DRB) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(EMTV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become as sounding brass or a clashing cymbal.

(ERV) I may speak in different languages, whether human or even of angels. But if I don't have love, I am only a noisy bell or a ringing cymbal.

(ESV) If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

(Geneva) Though I speake with the tongues of men and Angels, and haue not loue, I am as sounding brasse, or a tinkling cymbal.

(GNB) I may be able to speak the languages of human beings and even of angels, but if I have no love, my speech is no more than a noisy gong or a clanging bell.

(GNT-TR) εαν ταις γλωσσαις των ανθρωπων λαλω και των αγγελων αγαπην δε μη εχω γεγονα χαλκος ηχων η κυμβαλον αλαλαζον

(GNT-V) εαν ταις γλωσσαις των ανθρωπων λαλω και των αγγελων αγαπην δε μη εχω γεγονα χαλκος ηχων η κυμβαλον αλαλαζον

(GW) I may speak in the languages of humans and of angels. But if I don't have love, I am a loud gong or a clashing cymbal.

(ISV) If I speak in the tongues of humans and angels but have no love, I have become a reverberating gong or a clashing cymbal.

(KJV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(KJV+) ThoughG1437 I speakG2980 with theG3588 tonguesG1100 of menG444 andG2532 of angels,G32 andG1161 haveG2192 notG3361 charity,G26 I am becomeG1096 as soundingG2278 brass,G5475 orG2228 a tinklingG214 cymbal.G2950

(KJV-1611) Though I speake with the tongues of men & of Angels, and haue not charity, I am become as sounding brasse or a tinkling cymbal.

(KJVA) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(LITV) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I have become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

(LXX+WH+) εανG1437 COND ταιςG3588 T-DPF γλωσσαιςG1100 N-DPF τωνG3588 T-GPM ανθρωπωνG444 N-GPM λαλωG2980[G5725] V-PAS-1S καιG2532 CONJ τωνG3588 T-GPM αγγελωνG32 N-GPM αγαπηνG26 N-ASF δεG1161 CONJ μηG3361 PRT-N εχωG2192[G5725] V-PAS-1S γεγοναG1096[G5754] V-2RAI-1S χαλκοςG5475 N-NSM ηχωνG2278[G5723] V-PAP-NSM ηG2228 PRT κυμβαλονG2950 N-NSN αλαλαζονG214[G5723] V-PAP-NSN

(MKJV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.

(Murdock) If I could speak in every tongue of men, and in that of angels, and there should be no love in me, I should be like brass that resoundeth, or the cymbal that maketh a noise.

(RV) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

(Vulgate) si linguis hominum loquar et angelorum caritatem autem non habeam factus sum velut aes sonans aut cymbalum tinniens

(Webster) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(WNT) If I can speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but am destitute of Love, I have but become a loud-sounding trumpet or a clanging cymbal.

(YLT) If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:49 PM
Well, let's see. That Greek word, ean, has been translated as 'before', 'but', 'except', (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever).
So which one is the correct one? You say 'if'. Numerous translations of the Bible agree with you. But numerous others have translated it as 'though', and still others as 'may'.
Question. Would Paul have mentioned the tongues of angels if they did not exist, or would he suggest the possiblility if he could not? If you don't want to believe the angels have their own language and that Paul was able to use that language that's okay, I guess. Probably just as okay for me to believe he did.

G1437 ean eh-an'
From G1487 and G302; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty: - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever). See G3361.


(ASV) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

(BBE) If I make use of the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am like sounding brass, or a loud-tongued bell.

(Bishops) Though I speake with the tongues of men and of Angels, and haue not loue, I am [as] soundyng brasse, or [as] a tincklyng Cimball:

(Darby) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

(DRB) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(EMTV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become as sounding brass or a clashing cymbal.

(ERV) I may speak in different languages, whether human or even of angels. But if I don't have love, I am only a noisy bell or a ringing cymbal.

(ESV) If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

(Geneva) Though I speake with the tongues of men and Angels, and haue not loue, I am as sounding brasse, or a tinkling cymbal.

(GNB) I may be able to speak the languages of human beings and even of angels, but if I have no love, my speech is no more than a noisy gong or a clanging bell.

(GNT-TR) εαν ταις γλωσσαις των ανθρωπων λαλω και των αγγελων αγαπην δε μη εχω γεγονα χαλκος ηχων η κυμβαλον αλαλαζον

(GNT-V) εαν ταις γλωσσαις των ανθρωπων λαλω και των αγγελων αγαπην δε μη εχω γεγονα χαλκος ηχων η κυμβαλον αλαλαζον

(GW) I may speak in the languages of humans and of angels. But if I don't have love, I am a loud gong or a clashing cymbal.

(ISV) If I speak in the tongues of humans and angels but have no love, I have become a reverberating gong or a clashing cymbal.

(KJV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(KJV+) ThoughG1437 I speakG2980 with theG3588 tonguesG1100 of menG444 andG2532 of angels,G32 andG1161 haveG2192 notG3361 charity,G26 I am becomeG1096 as soundingG2278 brass,G5475 orG2228 a tinklingG214 cymbal.G2950

(KJV-1611) Though I speake with the tongues of men & of Angels, and haue not charity, I am become as sounding brasse or a tinkling cymbal.

(KJVA) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(LITV) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I have become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

(LXX+WH+) εανG1437 COND ταιςG3588 T-DPF γλωσσαιςG1100 N-DPF τωνG3588 T-GPM ανθρωπωνG444 N-GPM λαλωG2980[G5725] V-PAS-1S καιG2532 CONJ τωνG3588 T-GPM αγγελωνG32 N-GPM αγαπηνG26 N-ASF δεG1161 CONJ μηG3361 PRT-N εχωG2192[G5725] V-PAS-1S γεγοναG1096[G5754] V-2RAI-1S χαλκοςG5475 N-NSM ηχωνG2278[G5723] V-PAP-NSM ηG2228 PRT κυμβαλονG2950 N-NSN αλαλαζονG214[G5723] V-PAP-NSN

(MKJV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.

(Murdock) If I could speak in every tongue of men, and in that of angels, and there should be no love in me, I should be like brass that resoundeth, or the cymbal that maketh a noise.

(RV) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

(Vulgate) si linguis hominum loquar et angelorum caritatem autem non habeam factus sum velut aes sonans aut cymbalum tinniens

(Webster) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(WNT) If I can speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but am destitute of Love, I have but become a loud-sounding trumpet or a clanging cymbal.

(YLT) If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;

Not to mention... even if it was "if" that still doesn't make it an impossibility nor does it say that Paul didn't have the "supernatural" Spirit gift of speaking in the tongue of angels. His point is IF you speak in the language of man or angels and don't have love... noise. It is certain they could speak in the tongue of man... seems odd that Paul would just use a made up sort of thing after that... but regardless... he makes it clear in the 14th chapter that he's not just talking a man language. :D

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:49 PM
Um... what has that to do with the gift of the Spirit and tongues? Clue... nothing! :)

Tongues was not for the proclamation of the gospel... that isn't even what happened at Pentecost. It simply glorified God... speaking of His might deeds. When Peter stood up... then they heard the gospel.

Acts 2:4 *And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
5 *¶Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 *And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were bewildered, because they were each one hearing them speak in his own language.
7 *And they were amazed and marveled, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 *"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
9 *"Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 *Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 *Cretans and Arabs -- we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."


Acts 2:22 *¶"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know --
23 *this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 *"And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25 *"For David says of Him, `I WAS ALWAYS BEHOLDING THE LORD IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, THAT I MAY NOT BE SHAKEN.
26 *`THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL ABIDE IN HOPE;
27 *BECAUSE THOU WILT NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW THY HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28 *`THOU HAST MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; THOU WILT MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH THY PRESENCE.´
29 *"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 *"And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS UPON HIS THRONE,
31 *he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32 *"This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 *"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 *"For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: `THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35 *UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR THY FEET."´
36 *"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ -- this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 *¶Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"


The tongues got their attention no doubt... but it wasn't the gospel. That came when God had their attention. Isn't that an accurate way to read Acts 2?

We'll talk about the precept upon precept passage in a minute... really hasn't anything to do with what we're talking about now.

So then do we just dismiss Isaiah 28? Or do we understand that the mighty deeds of God include the gospel? Paul is clear in his reference, he says it is written in the Law, he is referring to Isaiah. At Pentecost when they spoke in tongues who did they speak to, wasn't it the unbelievers? Holding the position that tongues is for believers is contrary to the very words of the apostle.

Is God talking to Himself through the believer???

Isaiah 28:11-12 ( KJV )
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
1 Corinthians 14:21 ( KJV )
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

If tongues is for the believer to speak to God, who are the other people that would not hear? Is God talking to Himself, He says for "I" will speak unto this people.

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 08:55 PM
So then do we just dismiss Isaiah 28? Or do we understand that the mighty deeds of God include the gospel? Paul is clear in his reference, he says it is written in the Law, he is referring to Isaiah. At Pentecost when they spoke in tongues who did they speak to, wasn't it the unbelievers? Holding the position that tongues is for believers is contrary to the very words of the apostle.

Is God talking to Himself through the believer???

Isaiah 28:11-12 ( KJV )
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
1 Corinthians 14:21 ( KJV )
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

If tongues is for the believer to speak to God, who are the other people that would not hear? Is God talking to Himself, He says for "I" will speak unto this people.

And again... where does even Isaia say that it is proclamation of the gospel? So far... you've yet to show this. We'll discuss the latter parts of 1 Corinthians after that's established. You're skipping a huge part just jumping to the one part thus trying to nullify what Paul said a few verses up. That's sort of a bad way to treat the Scripture don't you think? As to the Isaiah passage... you'll run across a post on that about now. :)

Nomad
Nov 3rd 2010, 09:21 PM
at the church i attend, they push praying in the Spirit. For them, paying in the Spirit means speaking in ecstatic tongues (which i do not believe in which is why i am leaving). i don't look down on anyone who believes in this but my real question is this: other than praying in the Spirit, what else should we do in the Spirit and what exactly does this mean? Do you beleive praying in the Spirit means speaking in tongues? scripture references please :)

To do anything "in the Spirit" means basically to yield your thoughts and actions to the power and influence of the Holy Spirit's leading. For example:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Butch5
Nov 3rd 2010, 09:29 PM
And again... where does even Isaia say that it is proclamation of the gospel? So far... you've yet to show this. We'll discuss the latter parts of 1 Corinthians after that's established. You're skipping a huge part just jumping to the one part thus trying to nullify what Paul said a few verses up. That's sort of a bad way to treat the Scripture don't you think? As to the Isaiah passage... you'll run across a post on that about now. :)

I've shown it twice, is there any need to post it again? I really don't understand why Christians choose doctrine over Scripture. I've shown where Paul said that Tongues "IS NOT" for believers but for unbelievers, yet Christians seem to think it is the opposite. Isaiah and Paul both say that it is God who is speaking to "This People" yet Christians think they are using these tongues to Speak to God. The Scriptures say that it is "God" who is doing the speaking through these tongues and He is speaking to the unbelievers.

I haven't skipped anything. As I said, the letter to the Corinthians is a rebuke, Paul is rebuking them for their "Misuse" of the gifts. I've asked several questions now that have gone unanswered, here is another, if tongues was for the purpose of speaking to God, why do you suppose Paul says it is better to prophesy? If tongues was for the purpose of the Christian to speak to God why do you suppose Paul says, he would rather speak 5 words with understanding than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Wouldn't ten thousand words to God be more useful than speaking just five words? Paul would rather speak the five words, that seems to indicate to me that Paul did not think he was communicating with God by speaking those ten thousand words. Can you see the sarcasm in some of these passages?

sofy
Nov 3rd 2010, 09:35 PM
Uh... no. More curious. ;) hmmm, why so curious Peter?

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 10:39 PM
I've shown it twice, is there any need to post it again? I really don't understand why Christians choose doctrine over Scripture. I've shown where Paul said that Tongues "IS NOT" for believers but for unbelievers, yet Christians seem to think it is the opposite.Uh... that is part of what it is for but you are ignoring the passages that say it is also FOR believers. ;)


Isaiah and Paul both say that it is God who is speaking to "This People" yet Christians think they are using these tongues to Speak to God. The Scriptures say that it is "God" who is doing the speaking through these tongues and He is speaking to the unbelievers. Uh... no... not quite. I did post on the Isaiah passage... did you see that?




I haven't skipped anything. As I said, the letter to the Corinthians is a rebuke, Paul is rebuking them for their "Misuse" of the gifts. I've asked several questions now that have gone unanswered, here is another, if tongues was for the purpose of speaking to God, why do you suppose Paul says it is better to prophesy? If tongues was for the purpose of the Christian to speak to God why do you suppose Paul says, he would rather speak 5 words with understanding than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Wouldn't ten thousand words to God be more useful than speaking just five words? Paul would rather speak the five words, that seems to indicate to me that Paul did not think he was communicating with God by speaking those ten thousand words. Can you see the sarcasm in some of these passages?
Sure you are skipping a lot actually. Paul started this particular part of passage in 1 Corinthians 12. So frankly... you're skipping a whole lot!

Paul says it is better to speak prophecy over tongues UNLESS there is one to interpret those tongues... right?

chad
Nov 3rd 2010, 10:54 PM
(Mat 6:9 NIV) Jesus saying "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
(Mat 6:10 NIV) your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

So when we pray in the spirit, as led by the holy spirit, we seek the will of God, so that his will from heaven be done on earth.
Speaking in tongues can occur if enabled by the holy spirit. It is the holy spirit that enables us to do this, as it is a gift of God. Not all Praying in the spirit, includes speaking in tongues.






Do you beleive praying in the Spirit means speaking in tongues? scripture references please :)

ProjectPeter
Nov 3rd 2010, 11:05 PM
Big thing... wondering what sort of church you were a part of for 8 years and then how did you come about this revelation that it's all bad... etc.

sofy
Nov 3rd 2010, 11:31 PM
Big thing... wondering what sort of church you were a part of for 8 years and then how did you come about this revelation that it's all bad... etc.
well the church claims non-denominational but honestly, the values are very Pentecostal-like. While i grew up in the church, i moved to another state for a while and came back so i wasnt there for the entire 8 years. anyway, i have always been the type to ask why and i guess in my growing into myself and becoming more bold and secure in the fact that i have the right to ask why, ive come to realize that there arent any real answers to some of my questions about doctrinal issues, or at least, no answers that conclusively line up with scripture. btw, im 21 so i am still coming into myself so to speak but this is one issue where i cant compromise anymore. my conscience needs to be clear in order for me to serve God the way i want.

BroRog
Nov 3rd 2010, 11:35 PM
I believe the phrase "in the Spirit" is one way of saying, "in agreement with what the Spirit has taught us."

Butch5
Nov 4th 2010, 01:31 AM
Uh... that is part of what it is for but you are ignoring the passages that say it is also FOR believers. ;)

Where exactly does he say tongues is for believers?




Uh... no... not quite. I did post on the Isaiah passage... did you see that?

No.


Sure you are skipping a lot actually. Paul started this particular part of passage in 1 Corinthians 12. So frankly... you're skipping a whole lot!

I've not skipped it. It is a rebuke. Do I need to address the entire three chapters?
In his conclusion on the subject he says that tongues are a sign to the unbeliever.


Paul says it is better to speak prophecy over tongues UNLESS there is one to interpret those tongues... right?

So then if there is one to interpret aren't we speaking about known languages. If tongues was for the purpose of the Christian speaking to God what need would there be for an interpreter, surely God would not need an interpreter?

Butch5
Nov 4th 2010, 01:47 AM
Folks use this passage an awful lot and I really don't think folks really understand at all what it is saying. I've marveled even at its usage as I do with your usage here.

Look closely and then answer this question... Was this a positive thing for them? What was the outcome of line upon line, precept upon precept?

For those reading along... here is the passage. Please though... look it up and read that chapter and get this. It's important.

Isaiah 28:8 For all the tables are full of filthy vomit, without a single clean place.
9 ¶"To whom would He teach knowledge? And to whom would He interpret the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just taken from the breast?
10 "For He says, `Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there.´"
11 Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
12 He who said to them, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary," And, "Here is repose," but they would not listen.
13 So the word of the LORD to them will be, "Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there," That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared, and taken captive.

What is you point? Maybe I wasn't clear enough. This passage in Isaiah is speaking of the judgment of Israel. The message of tongues was not the gospel (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ) alone, if that is what you thought I meant then I need to clear that up. It is the entire message that Christ brought which included,

Luke 19:41-44 ( KJV )
And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Isaiah's prophecy happened shortly after Jesus' death, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. God sent Christ and He was a stumbling block to the Jews, they fell backward because they refused to believe Him. As Jesus said, they did not know the day of their visitation. The leadership of the Jews were judged for their rejection of Christ like Isaiah said in A.D. 70.

Butch5
Nov 4th 2010, 01:58 AM
Well, let's see. That Greek word, ean, has been translated as 'before', 'but', 'except', (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever).
So which one is the correct one? You say 'if'. Numerous translations of the Bible agree with you. But numerous others have translated it as 'though', and still others as 'may'.
Question. Would Paul have mentioned the tongues of angels if they did not exist, or would he suggest the possibility if he could not? If you don't want to believe the angels have their own language and that Paul was able to use that language that's okay, I guess. Probably just as okay for me to believe he did.

G1437 ean eh-an'
From G1487 and G302; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty: - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever). See G3361.


(ASV) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

(BBE) If I make use of the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am like sounding brass, or a loud-tongued bell.

(Bishops) Though I speake with the tongues of men and of Angels, and haue not loue, I am [as] soundyng brasse, or [as] a tincklyng Cimball:

(Darby) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

(DRB) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(EMTV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become as sounding brass or a clashing cymbal.

(ERV) I may speak in different languages, whether human or even of angels. But if I don't have love, I am only a noisy bell or a ringing cymbal.

(ESV) If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

(Geneva) Though I speake with the tongues of men and Angels, and haue not loue, I am as sounding brasse, or a tinkling cymbal.

(GNB) I may be able to speak the languages of human beings and even of angels, but if I have no love, my speech is no more than a noisy gong or a clanging bell.

(GNT-TR) εαν ταις γλωσσαις των ανθρωπων λαλω και των αγγελων αγαπην δε μη εχω γεγονα χαλκος ηχων η κυμβαλον αλαλαζον

(GNT-V) εαν ταις γλωσσαις των ανθρωπων λαλω και των αγγελων αγαπην δε μη εχω γεγονα χαλκος ηχων η κυμβαλον αλαλαζον

(GW) I may speak in the languages of humans and of angels. But if I don't have love, I am a loud gong or a clashing cymbal.

(ISV) If I speak in the tongues of humans and angels but have no love, I have become a reverberating gong or a clashing cymbal.

(KJV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(KJV+) ThoughG1437 I speakG2980 with theG3588 tonguesG1100 of menG444 andG2532 of angels,G32 andG1161 haveG2192 notG3361 charity,G26 I am becomeG1096 as soundingG2278 brass,G5475 orG2228 a tinklingG214 cymbal.G2950

(KJV-1611) Though I speake with the tongues of men & of Angels, and haue not charity, I am become as sounding brasse or a tinkling cymbal.

(KJVA) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(LITV) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I have become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

(LXX+WH+) εανG1437 COND ταιςG3588 T-DPF γλωσσαιςG1100 N-DPF τωνG3588 T-GPM ανθρωπωνG444 N-GPM λαλωG2980[G5725] V-PAS-1S καιG2532 CONJ τωνG3588 T-GPM αγγελωνG32 N-GPM αγαπηνG26 N-ASF δεG1161 CONJ μηG3361 PRT-N εχωG2192[G5725] V-PAS-1S γεγοναG1096[G5754] V-2RAI-1S χαλκοςG5475 N-NSM ηχωνG2278[G5723] V-PAP-NSM ηG2228 PRT κυμβαλονG2950 N-NSN αλαλαζονG214[G5723] V-PAP-NSN

(MKJV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.

(Murdock) If I could speak in every tongue of men, and in that of angels, and there should be no love in me, I should be like brass that resoundeth, or the cymbal that maketh a noise.

(RV) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

(Vulgate) si linguis hominum loquar et angelorum caritatem autem non habeam factus sum velut aes sonans aut cymbalum tinniens

(Webster) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

(WNT) If I can speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but am destitute of Love, I have but become a loud-sounding trumpet or a clanging cymbal.

(YLT) If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;

I think you missed the point. The point was that it was a conditional statement. Paul was not stating a fact. Whether the angels have a separate language or not is not Paul's point. His point was that if he could speak it it would mean nothing if he did not have love.

However, the English translations are just that, what matters is what the Greek words mean.

To answer your question,

Would Paul have mentioned the tongues of angels if they did not exist, or would he suggest the possibility if he could not?

Tongues of angels may exist, however, his mentioning them does not necessitate that he spoke them. For instance, suppose I said, if I had all the money in the world I would not buy one of those cars, that statement does not mean I have all the money in the world. It just supposes that possibility.

Butch5
Nov 4th 2010, 01:59 AM
Not to mention... even if it was "if" that still doesn't make it an impossibility nor does it say that Paul didn't have the "supernatural" Spirit gift of speaking in the tongue of angels. His point is IF you speak in the language of man or angels and don't have love... noise. It is certain they could speak in the tongue of man... seems odd that Paul would just use a made up sort of thing after that... but regardless... he makes it clear in the 14th chapter that he's not just talking a man language. :D

Exactly how does he make it clear?

Sirus
Nov 4th 2010, 02:25 AM
at the church i attend, they push praying in the Spirit. For them, paying in the Spirit means speaking in ecstatic tongues (which i do not believe in which is why i am leaving). i don't look down on anyone who believes in this but my real question is this: other than praying in the Spirit, what else should we do in the Spirit and what exactly does this mean? Do you beleive praying in the Spirit means speaking in tongues? scripture references please :)in the Spirit means in the truth revealed in God's word. If the Spirit is in you and you ask rightly and not amiss you ask in the Spirit of truth, for He never leaves you or forsakes you. We are to walk in Spirit and in truth as well. For example, since the truth is, you were baptized into the body of Christ by one Spirit so that the body of sin would be destroyed so that you would no longer walk after the flesh as you once did but walk as one alive from the dead because you have been crucified with Christ, when you believe that and do not sin because of that you are walking in the Spirit and in truth.

ProjectPeter
Nov 4th 2010, 03:33 AM
well the church claims non-denominational but honestly, the values are very Pentecostal-like. While i grew up in the church, i moved to another state for a while and came back so i wasnt there for the entire 8 years. anyway, i have always been the type to ask why and i guess in my growing into myself and becoming more bold and secure in the fact that i have the right to ask why, ive come to realize that there arent any real answers to some of my questions about doctrinal issues, or at least, no answers that conclusively line up with scripture. btw, im 21 so i am still coming into myself so to speak but this is one issue where i cant compromise anymore. my conscience needs to be clear in order for me to serve God the way i want.
Then go serve God. You say you don't agree with all that stuff and you're in here asking about what all that stuff means... it's not really consistent. If you don't believe in it how do you know if you don't know or understand what it means? Problem is... I hear what you are saying but really have no clue what all really went down short some short comments you have made. I'm hesitant to say much because I gotta guess we're only hearing a small part of what actually was said and or the context in which it was said etc. With the inconsistency I'm seeing... my best advice would be generic. If you can't agree with it then move on where you can. No need to stir up the pot since you really don't understand it all anyway. Just tell the Pastor you love him but time to move on or something.

ProjectPeter
Nov 4th 2010, 03:44 AM
Where exactly does he say tongues is for believers?1 Corinthians 14:26 ¶What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Also in the 12th chapter he speaks of the various gifts and how they are gifts for the body and the working of the body etc. Tongues, interpreted, are greatly edifying to the believer. If it is a tongue to a man and a language that the man understands even though others might not... why do you need it interpreted? The person that understands the language would understand it and that would be enough. No... none of that makes any sense at all. ;)


No.



I've not skipped it. It is a rebuke. Do I need to address the entire three chapters?
In his conclusion on the subject he says that tongues are a sign to the unbelieverHe hadn't concluded it yet... you did not go down far enough. I provided that conclusion up above. :)


So then if there is one to interpret aren't we speaking about known languages. If tongues was for the purpose of the Christian speaking to God what need would there be for an interpreter, surely God would not need an interpreter?Huh? Paul's point was that without an interpreter, in the gathering of believers, don't do it at all because it doesn't edify the entire body without that interpretation. They can't even say AMEN to your giving of thanks (good clue) if they can't understand you... it has no place in the body whole if no one understands. In context... that's what it says. Not that it is ONLY for unbelievers. It has a place in the church too if interpreted.

ProjectPeter
Nov 4th 2010, 03:47 AM
What is you point? Maybe I wasn't clear enough. This passage in Isaiah is speaking of the judgment of Israel. The message of tongues was not the gospel (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ) alone, if that is what you thought I meant then I need to clear that up. It is the entire message that Christ brought which included,

Luke 19:41-44 ( KJV )
And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Isaiah's prophecy happened shortly after Jesus' death, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. God sent Christ and He was a stumbling block to the Jews, they fell backward because they refused to believe Him. As Jesus said, they did not know the day of their visitation. The leadership of the Jews were judged for their rejection of Christ like Isaiah said in A.D. 70.

You are the one using it in the context of saying that tongues was the gospel message preached to unbelievers. That's how you've used it now in a couple of post. So if that's not what you are saying... my question still stands. And in context with how Paul used that passage... he is speaking of it in context of tongues and not the entire Gospel of Christ... right?

ProjectPeter
Nov 4th 2010, 03:49 AM
Exactly how does he make it clear?

1 Corinthians 14:2 *For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.


If interpreted it both edifies the speaker and the church. If not... only the spirit of the speaker.

ThyWordIsTruth
Nov 4th 2010, 06:20 AM
for about 8 years. Slowly but surely, God has been opening my eyes to certain things

I was in the same boat, but mine was 15 years. Praise God! If you ever need to talk to someone who can understand what you're going through, feel free to PM me.

notuptome
Nov 4th 2010, 03:26 PM
With all the difficulties we have in communicating in a common language why would God burden us or confuse us with an unknown language? Many protest and claim I've seen this or that so it must be so but I see scripture as telling us Christianity is not a "seeing" but a believing matter. Jesus Himself said "blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed". John 20:29 Jesus when He prayed for His apostles and disciples included us. "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on Me through their word." John 17:20

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 4th 2010, 03:45 PM
With all the difficulties we have in communicating in a common language why would God burden us or confuse us with an unknown language? Many protest and claim I've seen this or that so it must be so but I see scripture as telling us Christianity is not a "seeing" but a believing matter. Jesus Himself said "blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed". John 20:29 Jesus when He prayed for His apostles and disciples included us. "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on Me through their word." John 17:20

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Do you think Paul just made all that up?

Slug1
Nov 4th 2010, 03:48 PM
With all the difficulties we have in communicating in a common language why would God burden us or confuse us with an unknown language? Many protest and claim I've seen this or that so it must be so but I see scripture as telling us Christianity is not a "seeing" but a believing matter. Jesus Himself said "blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed". John 20:29 Jesus when He prayed for His apostles and disciples included us. "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on Me through their word." John 17:20

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger, according to scripture... tongues is to edify not confuse. Scripture Roger... scripture. Don't go by what you feel because when you listen to a person pray in tongues, you don't understand them. Scripture is VERY specific and clear... you aren't supposed to understand, NO ONE can understand unless translated. Tongues is for edification only and that is on a personal spiritual level (no translation) or edification to the church when translated.

Why do you insist confusion, which is not what scripture explains about this gift?

Amos_with_goats
Nov 4th 2010, 03:57 PM
I was in the same boat, but mine was 15 years. Praise God! If you ever need to talk to someone who can understand what you're going through, feel free to PM me.


FWIW,

Men will fail. Has been true from the beginning, and will not change until we are in Glory.

While man will fail, it is important not to 'throw out the baby with the bath'. Some of men's ideas are not the Lord's. Some of men's failings can be a distraction.

Do not rule out the things shown in scripture simply because some men would take them for their own glory.

Blessings,

divaD
Nov 4th 2010, 05:19 PM
Well, let's see. That Greek word, ean, has been translated as 'before', 'but', 'except', (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever).
So which one is the correct one? You say 'if'. Numerous translations of the Bible agree with you. But numerous others have translated it as 'though', and still others as 'may'.
Question. Would Paul have mentioned the tongues of angels if they did not exist, or would he suggest the possiblility if he could not? If you don't want to believe the angels have their own language and that Paul was able to use that language that's okay, I guess. Probably just as okay for me to believe he did.




1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

In my opin only, the solution is simple. If there is such a thing as speaking with the tongues of men, then logically, there must also be such a thing as speaking with the tongues of angels.
The verse states if one does not have charity, one has become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

So why mention anything about having charity, in regards to something that doesn't even exist, such as, no such thing as speaking with tongues of angels? I would think if Paul is going to make a point about having charity when doing something, that something would have to exist first. This would be like saying, if one believes in santa claus, but does not charity, then they become... I mean, that doesn't even make sense. What would their belief in santa claus prove, if they also had charity, or didn't have charity? Nothing one way or the other, since santa claus is not real to begin with. Probably not a good example, but it's still early in the day, lol. I do better later in the day..I think.

notuptome
Nov 4th 2010, 05:21 PM
Roger, according to scripture... tongues is to edify not confuse. Scripture Roger... scripture. Don't go by what you feel because when you listen to a person pray in tongues, you don't understand them. Scripture is VERY specific and clear... you aren't supposed to understand, NO ONE can understand unless translated. Tongues is for edification only and that is on a personal spiritual level (no translation) or edification to the church when translated.

Why do you insist confusion, which is not what scripture explains about this gift?
Well if one can read this passage without being carried away with fanciful thoughts about tongues one can see that Paul is admonishing the Corinthians on how they were abusing tongues. Paul at every turn is showing them of better things than tongues. 1 Cor 14:6 ...what shall I profit you except I speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? Again vs 14 if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. vs 20 be not children but be men in understanding. vs 19 i would rather speak five words with understanding than ten thousand in tongues.

When you were at your ministers conference was it a gathering of unsaved men? vs 22 tongues are for a sign not to the believer but to those who do not believe, prophesying serves not the unbeliever but the believer.

If you intend to lecture me on the scriptures then lets explore what the scriptures really say. Paul who spoke tongues more than any says clearly that understanding is better. Better both in his personal prayers and in his ministry in the churches.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 4th 2010, 05:25 PM
Well if one can read this passage without being carried away with fanciful thoughts about tongues one can see that Paul is admonishing the Corinthians on how they were abusing tongues. Paul at every turn is showing them of better things than tongues. 1 Cor 14:6 ...what shall I profit you except I speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? Again vs 14 if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. vs 20 be not children but be men in understanding. vs 19 i would rather speak five words with understanding than ten thousand in tongues.

When you were at your ministers conference was it a gathering of unsaved men? vs 22 tongues are for a sign not to the believer but to those who do not believe, prophesying serves not the unbeliever but the believer.

If you intend to lecture me on the scriptures then lets explore what the scriptures really say. Paul who spoke tongues more than any says clearly that understanding is better. Better both in his personal prayers and in his ministry in the churches.

For the cause of Christ
RogerThe person spoke in tongues and another translated... per scripture for the edifcation of the Body of Christ all present. This falls under prophecy which is for believers as you mentioned.

Yes, Paul was making correction because, like today... many then were abusing their gift. Seems that they were praying/speaking in tongues among all those who did not and this was causing division as it continues today. So Paul explained the proper order of utilizing this one specific gift of the Holy Spirit.

notuptome
Nov 4th 2010, 05:43 PM
The person spoke in tongues and another translated... per scripture for the edifcation of the Body of Christ all present. This falls under prophecy which is for believers as you mentioned.
Did you read vs 22? I guess there must have been some unsaved ministers present or the tongues were out of order.

Yes, Paul was making correction because, like today... many then were abusing their gift. Seems that they were praying/speaking in tongues among all those who did not and this was causing division as it continues today. So Paul explained the proper order of utilizing this one specific gift of the Holy Spirit.
Paul was emphasizing the importance of prophesying and de-emphasizing tongues because they were about to cease. Five words with understanding verses ten thousand in tongues.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 4th 2010, 05:58 PM
Did you read vs 22? I guess there must have been some unsaved ministers present or the tongues were out of order.

Paul was emphasizing the importance of prophesying and de-emphasizing tongues because they were about to cease. Five words with understanding verses ten thousand in tongues.

For the cause of Christ
RogerI agree that they are to end... they just have not end(ED) yet. Otherwise we'd not even be having this discussion.

I did read v22. Here I'll even post it...

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

The message was a prophetic word when translated, we were all edified, we were all believers... as stated in scripture: //but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe//

I'm sure none didn't believe in the gift of tongues or in Christ (unbelievers isn't limited to "unsaved")... we're talking about 250-300 pastors and bishops all from the state at this conference. Takes them a long time to vote for State Board members and Youth Board members... I tell you THAT! :lol:

Butch5
Nov 4th 2010, 06:26 PM
1 Corinthians 14:26 ¶What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Also in the 12th chapter he speaks of the various gifts and how they are gifts for the body and the working of the body etc. Tongues, interpreted, are greatly edifying to the believer. If it is a tongue to a man and a language that the man understands even though others might not... why do you need it interpreted? The person that understands the language would understand it and that would be enough. No... none of that makes any sense at all. ;)

Again, what need is there for interpretation if tongues is for the purpose of speaking to God?

I think you are missing Paul's point. In chapter 12 he telling them that they are a ll one body. Remember, there is divisions among them.

1 Corinthians 1:10-13 ( KJV )
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

You mentioned the one speaking in tongues was edified. Again, remember this is a letter of rebuke, that is the context.


1 Corinthians 14:1-20 ( KJV )
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

In this letter Paul has been trying to bring unity to this divided church, notice that he says the one who speaks in tongues is edifying himself and not the church, this is a rebuke, not a praise.


I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Again, we have the same thing. Speaking in tongues is edifying oneself unless it is interpreted in which case it edifies the church. So, edifying oneself by speaking in tongues is not what Paul wants them to do, he is rebuking them for it.

Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul says he will pray with understanding.

Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Notice Paul speaks of the unlearned not understanding. If this were some language that was unknown to man no one would understand it not just the unlearned. No, Paul says the unlearned will not understand if the tongue is not interpreted. It seems the who know would understand it. Paul is speaking of languages that are known to some men. The believer would know what was happening however, the unlearned would not know and as Paul says,

1 Corinthians 14:23 ( KJV )
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

But the other is not edified. Here again we see the rebuke. Paul is trying to unify this divided church and says again if one speaks in tongues yet it is not interpreted the unlearned is not edified. The one speaking in tongues is edifying himself just what Paul is arguing against, edifying oneself does not bring unity it brings pride and that is the exact opposite of what the Christian is called for. Christians are called to edify others not themselves. Can you see how prideful they got over speaking in tongues?

1 Corinthians 10:24 ( KJV )
Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth.

Notice how many time Paul speaks of being puffed up.

1 Corinthians 4:6 ( KJV )
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

1 Corinthians 4:18 ( KJV )
Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.


1 Corinthians 4:19 ( KJV )
But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.

1 Corinthians 5:2 ( KJV )
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

Can you see the rebuke in this letter? Then in chapter 13 Paul speaks of love which apparently they didn't have.


1 Corinthians 13:4 ( KJV )
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

So, the Corinthians were puffed up but love is not puffed up. It seems they did not have love for one another, yet Jesus said, they will know you are my disciples if you love one another. Again, can you see the rebuke in this letter?

Notice in the beginning of chapter 11 Paul says he praises the Corinthians for keeping the ordinances that he gave them but goes on to tell them that they are doing it incorrectly.He then goes on to explain what they are doing wrong and how they should be doing things in regards to head coverings. This is the same thing he does with the Gifts. Then in the second part of chapter 11 he rips (Rebukes) them for abusing the Lord's support. Then notice how he starts chapter 12.

1 Corinthians 12:1 ( KJV )
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

So, apparently they were ignorant concerning how to use the gifts, thus the abuse. From all of the division and strife among them it seems logical that their pride was getting between them. It seems that just as they thought they had superiority by being of Cephas, or Christ, they thought they had superiority based on the gift they had. Hence Paul's argument in chapter 12 that all of the gifts come from the same Spirit, thus they are all equal.

1 Corinthians 1:12-13 ( KJV )
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Again, we see him rebuking them for the divisions among them.


I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Paul says in the church he would speak five words with understanding to teach others than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. What significance do you think there is in Paul's saying "In the church"? In the church five words understood are more beneficial than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Doesn't that imply that tongues is for the unbeliever just as Paul said in chapter 14?



ow the use of the gift of tongues He hadn't concluded it yet... you did not go down far enough. I provided that conclusion up above. :)

He concluded that tongues was for the unbeliever, I already gave you that passage.


Huh? Paul's point was that without an interpreter, in the gathering of believers, don't do it at all because it doesn't edify the entire body without that interpretation.

So then how is edifying oneself through speaking in tongues a good thing?


They can't even say AMEN to your giving of thanks (good clue) if they can't understand you... it has no place in the body whole if no one understands.

Keep in mind Paul said the "Unlearned" would not understand.


In context... that's what it says. Not that it is ONLY for unbelievers. It has a place in the church too if interpreted.

What is the context? The "Unlearned" those who don't know, those who have never heard, are they not unbelievers?

divaD
Nov 4th 2010, 06:46 PM
I agree that they are to end... they just have not end(ED) yet. Otherwise we'd not even be having this discussion.




Since you agree that they end, then when? Tongues simply don't make sense today. Anyone with a computer and internet can translate one language into another. Things like this weren't avail 2000 yrs ago. The gift was absent from the church for centuries. What did they do during that time, concerning tongues? How did the church get by without tongues for centuries, then all of a sudden, around the early 1900's or so, the church then decided they couldn't do without this gift any longer?

In the early 1900s the idea was to use this gift in the missionary fields. When they saw it didn't work out like expected, meaning they at first believed tongues to be foreign languages to the speaker, but not to the listener, they then adopted what we have today, a tongue that no one understands, not even the one speaking in them.

If tongues were a sign to the unbeliever, then what unbeliever in their right mind would then believe because of a tongue he doesn't even remotely understand? I just don't get it. And besides, why would folks still be seeking signs 2000 yrs later? Isn't the written Word enough? Why still need signs? If an unbeliever can't become a believer because of the written Word, then it's highly unlikely they will become a believer if someone is speaking in tongues today, especially a tongue they don't understand. And besides, when Paul wrote those words, the Scriptures were still open and not closed as of yet. The Bible wasn't even complete yet.

Butch5
Nov 4th 2010, 06:48 PM
You are the one using it in the context of saying that tongues was the gospel message preached to unbelievers. That's how you've used it now in a couple of post. So if that's not what you are saying... my question still stands. And in context with how Paul used that passage... he is speaking of it in context of tongues and not the entire Gospel of Christ... right?

I don't think you are getting my point. The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel. When the Jews saw men speaking in other languages, they should have known about Isaiah 28. Tongues was a fulfilled prophecy form the book of Isaiah. That Prophecy speaks of God's judgment on Israel for rejecting their Messiah. It also speaks of Christ coming and teaching the teachings of God, and it says that those Jews would not hear it, they refused it. That is what happened when Christ came, when the Jews saw men speaking in tongues they should have realized that Christ was their Messiah but they refused.

The Gospel is not just believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, like churches teach today. The Gospel is the good news that Christ brought, what did Christ preach? The kingdom of God is what He preached. As I pointed out Jesus Himself spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Isaiah prophesied that the message of tongues was,


Isaiah 28:9-13 ( KJV )
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

This passage is talking about causing the weary to rest and the refreshing. It speaks of Christ teaching doctrine and giving knowledge, and it tell how He would do that, precept upon precept, line upon line. This rest and learning comes from Christ and Jesus Himself tells us so.

Matthew 11:28-30 ( KJV )
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is the rest and refreshing and learning that is spoken of in Isaiah. This is what Isaiah said God would speak through tongues.

Isaiah 28:11-12 ( KJV )
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Butch5
Nov 4th 2010, 06:49 PM
1 Corinthians 14:2 *For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.


If interpreted it both edifies the speaker and the church. If not... only the spirit of the speaker.

How does this make it clear that the message of tongues was for the believer?

Slug1
Nov 4th 2010, 07:19 PM
Since you agree that they end, then when? Tongues simply don't make sense today. Anyone with a computer and internet can translate one language into another. Things like this weren't avail 2000 yrs ago. The gift was absent from the church for centuries. What did they do during that time, concerning tongues? How did the church get by without tongues for centuries, then all of a sudden, around the early 1900's or so, the church then decided they couldn't do without this gift any longer?

In the early 1900s the idea was to use this gift in the missionary fields. When they saw it didn't work out like expected, meaning they at first believed tongues to be foreign languages to the speaker, but not to the listener, they then adopted what we have today, a tongue that no one understands, not even the one speaking in them.

If tongues were a sign to the unbeliever, then what unbeliever in their right mind would then believe because of a tongue he doesn't even remotely understand? I just don't get it. And besides, why would folks still be seeking signs 2000 yrs later? Isn't the written Word enough? Why still need signs? If an unbeliever can't become a believer because of the written Word, then it's highly unlikely they will become a believer if someone is speaking in tongues today, especially a tongue they don't understand. And besides, when Paul wrote those words, the Scriptures were still open and not closed as of yet. The Bible wasn't even complete yet.I don't know DivaD... why did God not allow prophecy for what was it, about 400 years during OT time? I'm sure there is a reason... not my place to ask.

That is why I say what I do about "unbeliever"... I was faithful to Christ but I was an unbeliever to His power in the Body of Christ today. Imagine me in this state of mind (for years) and then a person gives me a prophetic word from God? I'd tell them to get bent and if they pushed it, I'd tell them it is of satan because God don't do that anymore because I DON'T BELEIVE HE DOES THAT ANYMORE... BAM, I just blasphemied the Holy Spirit calling a prophetic word from God, of satan.

So, God had to "change" my heart, He had to crack the shield of unbelief that I errected by refusing to believe that He allows any of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ today mostly due to all the doctrine and churches I grew up in. I had all the same scripture lined up that Butch has lined up, all the same arguments all aligned to what I believed and in my arrangement of scripture continued to convince myself that God did end the Gifts and all those "OTHER" Christians were just a bunch of nut cases.

Why did God have to change my heart? Well for one example that I'll give... I have been placed by God into a ministry that prays for the healing of people... anyone can walk in off the street and receive prayer. To date, we have so many testimonies of healing, MY MIND is blown away. Now imagine if I was still on this very board saying that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ended... then WHO is healing all these people who we have prayed for????? It is NOT any of the 40-50 members of this ministry. It's the Holy Spirit and more than just the gift of healing has manifest, miracles, and prophecy as well.

How many others are purposed for ministry requiring God's power but they fall under a church or a whole denomination that says all the gifts are ended... How is God to work His will in them if they don't believe? He has to make them a believer... right? Enter... TONGUES! I'll tell you, experience the Holy Spirit in power for the very first time... you'd go from unbeliever to believer REAL fast! I didn't need to understand the tongues, i just had to be present and experience the Holy Spirit manifesting.

Anyway... come the day I began to surrender to God concerning this... about a year later I experience a person sitting infront of me receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and begin to speak in tongue as the evidence! Due to this witnessing of Tongues, as per scripture I was an unbeliever, NOW a believer. Since then, I have also received prophecy from God and since I'm a believer, I test and wait... to date ALL have come to pass except from those I know it is not the time, yet. God has given me much patience also and to see His hand work and actually see prophecy coming to pass is very exciting.

notuptome
Nov 4th 2010, 07:33 PM
I agree that they are to end... they just have not end(ED) yet. Otherwise we'd not even be having this discussion.
If they did (as scripture says they did) then what we see today isn't tongues as biblically defined.

I did read v22. Here I'll even post it...

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

The message was a prophetic word when translated, we were all edified, we were all believers... as stated in scripture: //but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe//

I'm sure none didn't believe in the gift of tongues or in Christ (unbelievers isn't limited to "unsaved")... we're talking about 250-300 pastors and bishops all from the state at this conference. Takes them a long time to vote for State Board members and Youth Board members... I tell you THAT! :lol:
Nice try but you cannot start out wrong and end up right. There is no scriptural basis for the sign of tongues to be present at your ministers meeting. Preaching and exhortation yes tongues no. vs 11 says you will come across as a barbarian if you speak in tongues and I know not what you are saying. Barbarians are heathen or pagan. There are many counterfeits in the world today. Such is the wat it's going to go in the last days. They will seek out teachers that will tell them what they want hear in place of the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 4th 2010, 07:50 PM
If they did (as scripture says they did) then what we see today isn't tongues as biblically defined.

Nice try but you cannot start out wrong and end up right. There is no scriptural basis for the sign of tongues to be present at your ministers meeting. Preaching and exhortation yes tongues no. vs 11 says you will come across as a barbarian if you speak in tongues and I know not what you are saying. Barbarians are heathen or pagan. There are many counterfeits in the world today. Such is the wat it's going to go in the last days. They will seek out teachers that will tell them what they want hear in place of the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, I will take the time to explain the scripture I am about to post, once again.

1 Cor 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

Now, to begin with, please don't say we were not in church... all that is needed is TWO like minded in Christ we are holding chruch. Two people meet on the street and begin to speak about God and they are having church. Church is not a building.

v13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

Now... "we" are ONE Body of Christ so if ONE person (he) speaks in tongues there must be interpretation for the "rest" of the Body of Christ to be edified. So when ANOTHER interprets... this is still ONE (he) Body of Christ. The interpretation can come from other members of the Body of Christ who are present. Still ONE Body of Christ so "he" is also interpreting.

v27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

So... in turn, another interpreted the ONE in the Body of Christ who spoke in tongues.

v31For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

Believe me, we were all encouraged by the message because in a nutshell it was God proclaiming His agreement with decisions that all those 250-300 pastors and bishops had made concerning our state and direction to move forward in Christ and bring Him to those who are lost.

So, yes... in further comments to your post, if tongues is spoken and there is no interpretation then YES, I'd think the same as you I guess. I have listened to people go off in tongues and finding no one present giving an interpretation, I take that person aside and explain to them, THE SAME WAY that Paul explained to the Corinthians... STOP! This is the proper use of this gift, keep it to yourself and don't let your emotions increase your vocal volume to the point all hear you doing nothing for the rest in the church. If the purpose was to distract everyone, it was accomplished... don't do it again please.

I also agree there are counterfits... I don't agree with you that ALL are and why? Because the Bible tells us to test all the spirits... if all was counterfit then that would mean there would be no reason to test.... ALL would be of satan. Since we are to test, WHY... if all miracles or gifts of the Holy Spirit are fake? Since we are told to test... the reason is because the Holy Spirit IS STILL operating in power in the Body of Christ.... satan is also still trying to fake us out. Thus the need to test.

notuptome
Nov 4th 2010, 09:20 PM
Roger, I will take the time to explain the scripture I am about to post, once again.

1 Cor 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
It does not say that he who speaks in tongues is the one who prophesies. Prophesy is to preach or teach doctrine in this useage.

Now, to begin with, please don't say we were not in church... all that is needed is TWO like minded in Christ we are holding chruch. Two people meet on the street and begin to speak about God and they are having church. Church is not a building.
I never said anything different. Although I might questionwhat qualifies as like minded.

v13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

Now... "we" are ONE Body of Christ so if ONE person (he) speaks in tongues there must be interpretation for the "rest" of the Body of Christ to be edified. So when ANOTHER interprets... this is still ONE (he) Body of Christ. The interpretation can come from other members of the Body of Christ who are present. Still ONE Body of Christ so "he" is also interpreting.
Tongues are a sign for unsaved people not for believers. Signs were present in the primative church to establish apostolic authority. Prophesy does not require tongues before one can prophesy or teach doctrine.

v27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
The reason for this is obvious since confusion was interfering with the prophesying in the church.
[quote]So... in turn, another interpreted the ONE in the Body of Christ who spoke in tongues.
And this is useful to the unsaved especially the Jews but prophets do not require tongues to teach doctrine.

v31For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
Nothing here about tongues only teaching doctrine to build up, edify the church.

Believe me, we were all encouraged by the message because in a nutshell it was God proclaiming His agreement with decisions that all those 250-300 pastors and bishops had made concerning our state and direction to move forward in Christ and bring Him to those who are lost.
This could not be done by preaching? Still you have not shown where the unbelievers were in your group.

So, yes... in further comments to your post, if tongues is spoken and there is no interpretation then YES, I'd think the same as you I guess. I have listened to people go off in tongues and finding no one present giving an interpretation, I take that person aside and explain to them, THE SAME WAY that Paul explained to the Corinthians... STOP! This is the proper use of this gift, keep it to yourself and don't let your emotions increase your vocal volume to the point all hear you doing nothing for the rest in the church. If the purpose was to distract everyone, it was accomplished... don't do it again please.
Actually proves nothing since the other requirements must be present as well.

I also agree there are counterfits... I don't agree with you that ALL are and why? Because the Bible tells us to test all the spirits... if all was counterfit then that would mean there would be no reason to test.... ALL would be of satan. Since we are to test, WHY... if all miracles or gifts of the Holy Spirit are fake? Since we are told to test... the reason is because the Holy Spirit IS STILL operating in power in the Body of Christ.... satan is also still trying to fake us out. Thus the need to test.
Test all things according to the word of God. Do not draw your conclusions before your receive all the data. Peter at pentacost prophesied the word of God to those present.

In the case of the ministers meeting God's Spirit would have been present in the heart of every believer and when the word of God was declared the Holy Spirit would have affirmed it in every heart. So why a sign by tongues? A sign to unbelievers and required by Jews.

Why was Paul emploring the Corinthians to seek prophesy? It was imperative that they receive doctrine that they be able to stand. Tongues could not produce doctrine. They were only a sign to establish authority.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 4th 2010, 11:36 PM
It does not say that he who speaks in tongues is the one who prophesies. I agree the scripture I posted says that the one interpreting is bringing forth the edification, not the one actually speaking. Two gifts are in operation, Speaking in tongues as the 1st and interpretation of tongues is the 2nd. Only if there is interpretation, is there edification for all those present.


Tongues are a sign for unsaved people not for believers. Signs were present in the primative church to establish apostolic authority. Prophesy does not require tongues before one can prophesy or teach doctrine.
v27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
The reason for this is obvious since confusion was interfering with the prophesying in the church.Roger, if the gifts of the Holy Spirit were not active today, we'd not even be having this conversation.





Test all things according to the word of God. Do not draw your conclusions before your receive all the data. Peter at pentacost prophesied the word of God to those present.Actually there are other ways to test the spirits... obviously the gift of discernment of spirits is a great one, gifts of knowledge and/or wisdom help as well. Peter also spoke in tongues where people though all those pouring out of the upper room speaking in tongues were drunk. ALSO, he spoke in tongues where all understood what he was saying, even if they didn't speak the language he was speaking, to them, they heard it in their own language. This happens today as well.


In the case of the ministers meeting God's Spirit would have been present in the heart of every believer and when the word of God was declared the Holy Spirit would have affirmed it in every heart. So why a sign by tongues? A sign to unbelievers and required by Jews.I can't agree with you Roger... I was an unbeliever. That night after I went home and prayed and asked God for more understanding He lead me directly to that scripture about tongues is for the unbeliever, I WAS an unbeliever at the time. Now I beleive in both Christ and the POWER of Christ in the Body of Christ today.

Ya know... in a past thread you brought out all the scripture about how there are no Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ... you posted all those scriptures to make a point in that thread. Yet, for this topic, you conveniently separate Jew from Gentile. So which is it? Only one certain topics Gentiles and Jews are the same and in these dealing with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, it's just Jews and they are different than the Gentiles?

kay-gee
Nov 5th 2010, 12:49 AM
Now, to begin with, please don't say we were not in church... all that is needed is TWO like minded in Christ we are holding chruch. Two people meet on the street and begin to speak about God and they are having church. Church is not a building.

Sorry Slug1. I think your definition of "church" is a little skewed. If two people meet on a street corner and one is a woman (or both) they are to be silent, because woman are forbidden to speak in Church! Right?

all the best...

Slug1
Nov 5th 2010, 12:54 AM
Sorry Slug1. I think your definition of "church" is a little skewed. If two people meet on a street corner and one is a woman (or both) they are to be silent, because woman are forbidden to speak in Church! Right?

all the best...Out of this entire thread, you have to pick on this? :lol:

kay-gee
Nov 5th 2010, 01:22 AM
Out of this entire thread, you have to pick on this? :lol:

Watching you like a hawk Slug!

all the best...

Slug1
Nov 5th 2010, 01:23 AM
Watching you like a hawk Slug!

all the best...OK ? :dunno:

I've never had groupies follow me around before, I guess that's cool!

ProjectPeter
Nov 5th 2010, 01:42 AM
Again, what need is there for interpretation if tongues is for the purpose of speaking to God?As Paul said... so that the church body can be edified. He says that very thing eh?


1 Corinthians 14:5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.




I think you are missing Paul's point. In chapter 12 he telling them that they are a ll one body. Remember, there is divisions among them.

1 Corinthians 1:10-13 ( KJV )
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? Uh... yes. Now he is speaking of them being one body and the need for all the BODY parts with VARYING gifts are to work together as ONE SINGLE body. Paul's long now moved beyond that initial rebuke.

1 Corinthians 12:18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now there are many members, but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
23 and those members of the body, which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our unseemly members come to have more abundant seemliness,
24 whereas our seemly members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
25 that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?


Context doesn't allow for you to ignore this. You certainly can ignore it and it appears you do... but you're way off the context track by doing so.





You mentioned the one speaking in tongues was edified. Again, remember this is a letter of rebuke, that is the context. Uh... it wasn't just rebuke. It was also instruction. Come on now... Paul didn't write all this just blessing them out.... you've got some messed up understanding here if that's all you got to say about this entire letter!





1 Corinthians 14:1-20 ( KJV )
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

In this letter Paul has been trying to bring unity to this divided church, notice that he says the one who speaks in tongues is edifying himself and not the church, this is a rebuke, not a praise.Uh... it was a rebuke with instruction offered to correct the problem. GIVE THE TONGUE IF THERE IS AN INTERPRETER and then the BODY is edified. you keep leaving that part of the passage out... why is that?



I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Again, we have the same thing. Speaking in tongues is edifying oneself unless it is interpreted in which case it edifies the church. So, edifying oneself by speaking in tongues is not what Paul wants them to do, he is rebuking them for it.Uh... no. It was told them not to do it when they gather because it wasn't orderly. IF THERE IS NO INTERPRETER... Don't? That isn't what Paul said at all and if it was a rebuke to NOT DO IT then he'd of made that clear. Instead... Paul said this.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit and I shall pray with the mind also; I shall sing with the spirit and I shall sing with the mind also.
16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?
17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;
19 however, in the churchI desire to speak five words with my mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Paul spake them often privately as he implies clearly here. In the church though... that wasn't as important to him because unless interpreted it edified no one when a prophetic word in their own language was clear and they understood.

He also goes on to say...

1 Corinthians 14:26 ¶What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and let one interpret;
28 but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

If no interpreter then don't speak in tongues? Not what Paul said. Paul said to keep silent and speak to HIMSELF and to GOD. So you're ignoring an awful lot in order to hang onto your own personal doctrine... in that you're wrong and Scripture shows that clearly.





Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul says he will pray with understanding.

Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Notice Paul speaks of the unlearned not understanding. If this were some language that was unknown to man no one would understand it not just the unlearned. No, Paul says the unlearned will not understand if the tongue is not interpreted. It seems the who know would understand it. Paul is speaking of languages that are known to some men. The believer would know what was happening however, the unlearned would not know and as Paul says,

1 Corinthians 14:23 ( KJV )
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

But the other is not edified. Here again we see the rebuke. Paul is trying to unify this divided church and says again if one speaks in tongues yet it is not interpreted the unlearned is not edified. The one speaking in tongues is edifying himself just what Paul is arguing against, edifying oneself does not bring unity it brings pride and that is the exact opposite of what the Christian is called for. Christians are called to edify others not themselves. Can you see how prideful they got over speaking in tongues?

1 Corinthians 10:24 ( KJV )
Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth.

Notice how many time Paul speaks of being puffed up.

1 Corinthians 4:6 ( KJV )
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

1 Corinthians 4:18 ( KJV )
Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.


1 Corinthians 4:19 ( KJV )
But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.

1 Corinthians 5:2 ( KJV )
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

Can you see the rebuke in this letter? Then in chapter 13 Paul speaks of love which apparently they didn't have.


1 Corinthians 13:4 ( KJV )
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

So, the Corinthians were puffed up but love is not puffed up. It seems they did not have love for one another, yet Jesus said, they will know you are my disciples if you love one another. Again, can you see the rebuke in this letter?

Notice in the beginning of chapter 11 Paul says he praises the Corinthians for keeping the ordinances that he gave them but goes on to tell them that they are doing it incorrectly.He then goes on to explain what they are doing wrong and how they should be doing things in regards to head coverings. This is the same thing he does with the Gifts. Then in the second part of chapter 11 he rips (Rebukes) them for abusing the Lord's support. Then notice how he starts chapter 12.

1 Corinthians 12:1 ( KJV )
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

So, apparently they were ignorant concerning how to use the gifts, thus the abuse. From all of the division and strife among them it seems logical that their pride was getting between them. It seems that just as they thought they had superiority by being of Cephas, or Christ, they thought they had superiority based on the gift they had. Hence Paul's argument in chapter 12 that all of the gifts come from the same Spirit, thus they are all equal.

1 Corinthians 1:12-13 ( KJV )
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Again, we see him rebuking them for the divisions among them.


I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Paul says in the church he would speak five words with understanding to teach others than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. What significance do you think there is in Paul's saying "In the church"? In the church five words understood are more beneficial than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Doesn't that imply that tongues is for the unbeliever just as Paul said in chapter 14?




He concluded that tongues was for the unbeliever, I already gave you that passage.



So then how is edifying oneself through speaking in tongues a good thing?



Keep in mind Paul said the "Unlearned" would not understand.



What is the context? The "Unlearned" those who don't know, those who have never heard, are they not unbelievers?
Dude... you really have this all skeewaddy. I understand folks that at least think it stopped and all. But you're just saying it wasn't supposed to be done at all and Paul was fussing at them for it and all. That's just odd... not to mention so contrary to the passage that nothing much else I can say. You see the entire letter as a rebuke and that's how you look at it and can't see the instruction in it even though you pick the parts you want as instruction.

Paul wasn't rebuking them for speaking in tongues. He was rebuking them for speaking in tongues out of order. The rebuke wasn't DON'T DO IT. The rebuke was don't everyone do it and do it without an interpreter because otherwise the speaker was the only one edified. Since the speaker is the only one edified (without an interpreter) then there was no need to give it aloud. Do it quietly between you and God. Now... if there is an interpreter... a couple or three of you go ahead on. Then hush and let others participate with their gifts in the gathering.

In all honesty... the problem was likely the same as it is now. More focus was put on speaking in tongues than other gifts and everyone apparently thought that super cool to do... it was a big deal. Paul told them... not that big a deal at all really... all parts have a place and all gifts have a place etc. The body doesn't just consist or a tongue or lips... there is also toes, feet, fingers and hands. That was Paul's point and tossed in between the instruction and the fussing... the main point. You can talk in tongues until your pie hole slams shut... you can prophesy until the cows come home... you can have faith to move the biggest mountain... you can sell every bit of your stuff and feed the Israeli Army... but if you ain't got love... you ain't nothing.

NEVER does he jone's on folks for speaking in tongues as a spiritual deed and practice. He just corrected them in how they are to do so in the gathering of believers.

ProjectPeter
Nov 5th 2010, 01:50 AM
I don't think you are getting my point. The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel. When the Jews saw men speaking in other languages, they should have known about Isaiah 28. Tongues was a fulfilled prophecy form the book of Isaiah. That Prophecy speaks of God's judgment on Israel for rejecting their Messiah. It also speaks of Christ coming and teaching the teachings of God, and it says that those Jews would not hear it, they refused it. That is what happened when Christ came, when the Jews saw men speaking in tongues they should have realized that Christ was their Messiah but they refused.

The Gospel is not just believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, like churches teach today. The Gospel is the good news that Christ brought, what did Christ preach? The kingdom of God is what He preached. As I pointed out Jesus Himself spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Isaiah prophesied that the message of tongues was,


Isaiah 28:9-13 ( KJV )
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

This passage is talking about causing the weary to rest and the refreshing. It speaks of Christ teaching doctrine and giving knowledge, and it tell how He would do that, precept upon precept, line upon line. This rest and learning comes from Christ and Jesus Himself tells us so.

Matthew 11:28-30 ( KJV )
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is the rest and refreshing and learning that is spoken of in Isaiah. This is what Isaiah said God would speak through tongues.

Isaiah 28:11-12 ( KJV )
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
You make the very mistake I spoke of earlier.

The message was... THIS IS THE REST WHEREWITH YOU MAY CAUSE THE WEARY TO REST AND THIS IS THE REFRESHING. That was the message they would not hear.

The line upon line... precept upon precept... that wasn't a positive thing. Look at it closely.

Isaiah 28:12 He who said to them, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary," And, "Here is repose," but they would not listen.

13 So the word of the LORD to them will be, "Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there," That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared, and taken captive.

The bold part is what Order on order, line on line, a bit here and a bit there got them. Folks need to recall that the Jews were very, very, very good at the order on order, line on line stuff. Had that nailed to a tee. The result of that order on order, line on line... they stumbled backwards, were broken, snared and taken captive.

Slug1
Nov 5th 2010, 11:58 AM
Sorry Slug1. I think your definition of "church" is a little skewed. If two people meet on a street corner and one is a woman (or both) they are to be silent, because woman are forbidden to speak in Church! Right?

all the best...

Matthew 18:19 “Again I say[a] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

I don't know what legalism you were trying to twist my words with but this is the scripture to back my statement about two or more. God was with us in that place, He even spoke to us all through two obedient vessels.

When I was in Iraq, we'd gather behind my Bradley while on mission but during periods of secure rest and we'd talk about God, testify, read scripture... 2+ (usually about 6-10) were gathered together in Christ's name so we were having "church". All of standing there, in the middle of a combat zone and Christ was with us because He is faithful.

notuptome
Nov 5th 2010, 12:26 PM
I agree the scripture I posted says that the one interpreting is bringing forth the edification, not the one actually speaking. Two gifts are in operation, Speaking in tongues as the 1st and interpretation of tongues is the 2nd. Only if there is interpretation, is there edification for all those present.
You are assuming facts not in evidence in these scriptures. Tongues were a sign gift and prophesy is for the edification of believers. Blurring the distinction between the two is an unwise practice. Prophesy in the NT is preaching and that is the only approved means of edifing the church. In the primative church, that church before the completion of the NT revelation, needed signs to establish the authority of the speaker. This was to the Jews because their OT scriptures told them to identify prophets in this manner. This was never the expectation of the NT gentile Christians.

Roger, if the gifts of the Holy Spirit were not active today, we'd not even be having this conversation.
This is very true. We would be able to move on to spiritual growth and preparation for the work set before us to evangelize the lost for Christ our Saviour.

Actually there are other ways to test the spirits... obviously the gift of discernment of spirits is a great one, gifts of knowledge and/or wisdom help as well. Peter also spoke in tongues where people though all those pouring out of the upper room speaking in tongues were drunk. ALSO, he spoke in tongues where all understood what he was saying, even if they didn't speak the language he was speaking, to them, they heard it in their own language. This happens today as well.
If this is the case then in those specific situations you have genuine biblical tongues. What went on at the ministers conference does not appear to meet those specific conditions. The bible records the method of discerning the truth to be searching the scriptures to see if what is said is so. Acts 17:11

I can't agree with you Roger... I was an unbeliever. That night after I went home and prayed and asked God for more understanding He lead me directly to that scripture about tongues is for the unbeliever, I WAS an unbeliever at the time. Now I beleive in both Christ and the POWER of Christ in the Body of Christ today.
Either that or you yielded to your hearts desire, what Paul describes in 2 Tim 4:3 as lust, and have turned unto fables. verse 4 Only you and God know why you are so strongly attracted to that which scripture says is not yours to have.

Ya know... in a past thread you brought out all the scripture about how there are no Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ... you posted all those scriptures to make a point in that thread. Yet, for this topic, you conveniently separate Jew from Gentile. So which is it? Only one certain topics Gentiles and Jews are the same and in these dealing with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, it's just Jews and they are different than the Gentiles?
There are ways in which Jews and gentiles are the same like the matter of salvation both must come through the blood. Both are the same in Christ. Outside of Christ Jews and gentiles are very different by their specific nature. God still has specific prophesys for the Jew that are not for the gentiles. This is an interesting diversion but not something you will grasp in a superficial study.

As always it is not me you need to agree with it is the word of God. Paul told Timothy to exhort with longsuffering and doctrine. 2 Tim 4:2

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 5th 2010, 01:03 PM
As always it is not me you need to agree with it is the word of God. Paul told Timothy to exhort with longsuffering and doctrine. 2 Tim 4:2
Actually Roger, you said all that needs to be said right here... again, if any of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit ended as you say, then we'd not even be having this conversation. But the Gifts are still active and the Body of Christ needs to face this.

In you saying that all those who are used by God and as vessels, are exercising any of those nine gifts... if what "you" say is true then God ins't doing all these miracles done today in the Body of Christ. What you are saying is that ALL those who exercise any of the nine Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not empowered by God but instead by satan. Sure he counterfits BUT ROGER... why counterfit if satan is the only one empowering? God MUST be activly empowering the Body of Christ for satan to even have the need today to continue to counterfit. Thus the reason, we are all continued to be warned to test the spirits by the word of God.

So yeah, agreement with the Word of God is needed, I agree with God and I will continue to allow God to use me as He see fit. I witness and or experience people being healed all the time as we pray... the gifts are very much active in the Body of Christ today... all of them.

Not active near you obviously because in all your words you post... you don't believe, nor are you in agreement with the Word of God. If what you say was true, NOT ANY of those gifts would be able to be active in the Body of Christ today. You should come down or over, or up to where I live and talk with all those that God gives mighty testimony to as they are healed when they walk in off the street, receive prayer and are healed... you really should.

notuptome
Nov 5th 2010, 01:54 PM
Actually Roger, you said all that needs to be said right here... again, if any of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit ended as you say, then we'd not even be having this conversation. But the Gifts are still active and the Body of Christ needs to face this.
Eph 4:11 the gifts given to the church are men anointed by God to do the work in the church for the perfecting of the saints. vs 12.

In you saying that all those who are used by God and as vessels, are exercising any of those nine gifts... if what "you" say is true then God ins't doing all these miracles done today in the Body of Christ. What you are saying is that ALL those who exercise any of the nine Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not empowered by God but instead by satan. Sure he counterfits BUT ROGER... why counterfit if satan is the only one empowering? God MUST be activly empowering the Body of Christ for satan to even have the need today to continue to counterfit. Thus the reason, we are all continued to be warned to test the spirits by the word of God.
You are contending that it must be so because of the testimonies of so many men. God has said they shall cease. 1 Cor 13:8 Specifically tongues but prophecies of the fortelling nature and knowledge again in the sense of things not revealed. Other gifts are not mentioned so they continue. The body of evidence you claim to point to is not readily apparent in light of scripture.

So yeah, agreement with the Word of God is needed, I agree with God and I will continue to allow God to use me as He see fit. I witness and or experience people being healed all the time as we pray... the gifts are very much active in the Body of Christ today... all of them.
I hope this is not your opinion taking precedence over Gods word.

Not active near you obviously because in all your words you post... you don't believe, nor are you in agreement with the Word of God. If what you say was true, NOT ANY of those gifts would be able to be active in the Body of Christ today. You should come down or over, or up to where I live and talk with all those that God gives mighty testimony to as they are healed when they walk in off the street, receive prayer and are healed... you really should.
This is more argumentative than compelling. I will stand by the testimony of the word of God. Men can say anything but only God can declare His truth. 2 Tim 3:15-17 ...scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Some will turn away from sound doctrine and be turned unto fables. 2 Time 4:4

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 5th 2010, 01:58 PM
Some will turn away from sound doctrine and be turned unto fables. 2 Time 4:4

For the cause of Christ
RogerActually many in the Body of Christ don't turn away... they turn too God and He is able to use them as He see's fit and even empowers them due to their faith and obdience to Him.

You turn God's work that He does in the Body of Christ, INTO fables.

BroRog
Nov 5th 2010, 03:22 PM
I was hoping to learn more about the phrase "in the spirit", and I'm wondering if anyone has done a study of all the places where this phrase is used?

divaD
Nov 5th 2010, 03:48 PM
That is why I say what I do about "unbeliever"... I was faithful to Christ but I was an unbeliever to His power in the Body of Christ today. Imagine me in this state of mind (for years) and then a person gives me a prophetic word from God? I'd tell them to get bent and if they pushed it, I'd tell them it is of satan because God don't do that anymore because I DON'T BELEIVE HE DOES THAT ANYMORE.

Slug1, this is your first mistake then, the way you interpret unbeliever. You have to interpret unbeliever according to the historic context at the time. If you first believed that Christ was the Saviour, yet did not believe tongues of today were of the Holy Spirit, then how did that make you an unbeliever?

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Coming from your perspective, how should one treat this verse then? Should it be interpreted like such?

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers(those that don't believe tongues of today 2010 are still in operation): for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness(those that don't believe tongues of today 2010 are still in operation)? and what communion hath light with darkness(those that don't believe tongues of today 2010 are still in operation)?

Isn't that a bit unreasonable? But that's what you would be basically implying, per your explanation of unbelievers in 1 Cor 14. Why not just say what unbelievers really are? They're the unrighteous, of the darkness, they don't even believe Jesus to be Lord, etc. None of that applied to you, correct? when you were on the other side of the debate concerning tongues, right? So how then did you go from being an unbeliever to a believer, when you were a believer all along?

And BTW, and you probably already know this. I've already been where you are now. With that in mind, you're not telling me anything I never experienced for myself. I used to speak in tongues. I was of pretty much the same mindset as you. I probably applied unbelievers pretty much the same way as you, at the time. Obviously my understanding of unbelievers didn't agree with the Biblical definition of them. I can clearly see that now, tho back then, some 20 yrs ago or better, I couldn't.

notuptome
Nov 5th 2010, 03:56 PM
Actually many in the Body of Christ don't turn away... they turn too God and He is able to use them as He see's fit and even empowers them due to their faith and obdience to Him.

You turn God's work that He does in the Body of Christ, INTO fables.
The Holy Spirit does not operate outside of the word of God. John 16:13 The Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself but the things He hears He shall speak and teach.

God does not work in opposition to His word. God has said what He has said and if what is going on doesn't match up then He ain't in it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 5th 2010, 04:03 PM
I was hoping to learn more about the phrase "in the spirit", and I'm wondering if anyone has done a study of all the places where this phrase is used?
The AV uses the phrase 28 times. Three of which are in the OT. I suspect there would need to be several sub-divisions of which spirit one was in.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 5th 2010, 04:17 PM
Prophesy in the NT is preaching and that is the only approved means of edifing the church. In the primative church, that church before the completion of the NT revelation, needed signs to establish the authority of the speaker. This was to the Jews because their OT scriptures told them to identify prophets in this manner. This was never the expectation of the NT gentile Christians.

Um... why do you think prophesy is only preaching?

notuptome
Nov 5th 2010, 04:21 PM
Um... why do you think prophesy is only preaching?
No new revelation from God after the completion of the NT. Why would you think NT prophesy is more?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 5th 2010, 04:24 PM
I will stand by the testimony of the word of God. Men can say anything but only God can declare His truth. 2 Tim 3:15-17 ...scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Some will turn away from sound doctrine and be turned unto fables. 2 Time 4:4And God said they would cease... you're just trying to make "that which is perfect" to be the gathering of letters and the "completion" of Scripture etc. That isn't what it says though... MAN has determined it to mean that. So while it sounds all spiritual what you say.... it is nothing more than a pot calling a kettle black. ;)

ProjectPeter
Nov 5th 2010, 04:26 PM
No new revelation from God after the completion of the NT. Why would you think NT prophesy is more?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Uh... why do you think God would have no new revelation to his people? Not talking doctrinal issues effecting salvation Roger... the NT prophets didn't do that either so not sure what you're going on about there. I'm talking revelation that a prophet brings... things like there is a famine coming... words of foreknowledge that a come in prophesy?

notuptome
Nov 5th 2010, 04:48 PM
And God said they would cease... you're just trying to make "that which is perfect" to be the gathering of letters and the "completion" of Scripture etc. That isn't what it says though... MAN has determined it to mean that. So while it sounds all spiritual what you say.... it is nothing more than a pot calling a kettle black. ;)
All the other elements necessary for the church was in place the only item not complete was the delivery of the balance of Gods word. The primative church was preaching Christ from the existing OT scriptures. The OT was a shadow of the more perfect things to come. Heb 10:1

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 5th 2010, 04:56 PM
Uh... why do you think God would have no new revelation to his people? Not talking doctrinal issues effecting salvation Roger... the NT prophets didn't do that either so not sure what you're going on about there. I'm talking revelation that a prophet brings... things like there is a famine coming... words of foreknowledge that a come in prophesy?
Heb 1:1-3 All that needs to be said was said in Gods Son.

The prophetic foreknowledge like famine is coming shall fail. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Cor 1:21

For the cause of Christ
Roger

divaD
Nov 5th 2010, 05:04 PM
I'm talking revelation that a prophet brings... things like there is a famine coming... words of foreknowledge that a come in prophesy?

Can you provide some examples per the NT, after the day of Pentecost, where this gift was used in this manner? If you can't, then how are you determining this gift was even used in this manner, and is still being used in this manner today? It sounds like you are basing this gift according to the prophets of the OT. Personally, I see no evidence in the NT that this gift was even utilized in this manner. I would think, just as Roger has pointed out, they basically only had the OT to go by at the time. The gift of prophesy was used basically to get revelation from pending Scriptures that were not yet available at the time. IOW, the NT was not yet complete and in written terms for all to see. So the gifts were used in the meantime. That's how they received the written Word, the written Word that was not available to them at the time..the same written Word we have today. They received the not yet complete written Word thru some of the gifts of the Spirit. That would be my guess..right or wrong.

ProjectPeter
Nov 5th 2010, 05:22 PM
All the other elements necessary for the church was in place the only item not complete was the delivery of the balance of Gods word. The primative church was preaching Christ from the existing OT scriptures. The OT was a shadow of the more perfect things to come. Heb 10:1

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You call it the "primitive church" although no where in Scripture does it allude to the idea that this is the old way and it will change as seasons and generations change. The only time it will change is when Christ returns and it's all done but the shouting.

NO WHERE do you read where ANY OF the Apostles write... "when we're done writing all this stuff out then perfection is come." Do you? You ASSUME that is what that means... right? So then please tell me how it is that you go on about someone following the teaching of man while ignoring Scripture?

Thing is... you can't even really make the case that "that which is perfect" has come. Certainly you can't make it the way you do because even after Paul penned his last letter and John, Peter, James, and Jude their last letter or letters... very few people would have had access to those letters and it really wasn't until fairly modern times that we got all that we have now bound up in a single book that we call the Bible. So that which is perfect... wasn't all that perfect until fairly recent time... if you want to be consistent here Roger. That which is perfect isn't the Bible.

ProjectPeter
Nov 5th 2010, 05:35 PM
Heb 1:1-3 All that needs to be said was said in Gods Son.

The prophetic foreknowledge like famine is coming shall fail. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Cor 1:21

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Why will it fail?

ProjectPeter
Nov 5th 2010, 05:38 PM
Can you provide some examples per the NT, after the day of Pentecost, where this gift was used in this manner? If you can't, then how are you determining this gift was even used in this manner, and is still being used in this manner today? It sounds like you are basing this gift according to the prophets of the OT. Personally, I see no evidence in the NT that this gift was even utilized in this manner. I would think, just as Roger has pointed out, they basically only had the OT to go by at the time. The gift of prophesy was used basically to get revelation from pending Scriptures that were not yet available at the time. IOW, the NT was not yet complete and in written terms for all to see. So the gifts were used in the meantime. That's how they received the written Word, the written Word that was not available to them at the time..the same written Word we have today. They received the not yet complete written Word thru some of the gifts of the Spirit. That would be my guess..right or wrong.

Sure...

Acts 11:28 *And one of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius.

Acts 21:10 *And as we were staying there for some days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
11 *And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: `In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.´"

divaD
Nov 5th 2010, 05:58 PM
Sure...

Acts 11:28 *And one of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius.

Acts 21:10 *And as we were staying there for some days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
11 *And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: `In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.´"



You indeed proved your point. I don't know what to say now in rebuttal..probably because I now have none.

ProjectPeter
Nov 5th 2010, 06:09 PM
You indeed proved your point. I don't know what to say now in rebuttal..probably because I now have none.

Let me toss this in to help and to clarify.

This ain't the generic stuff that you hear a lot of today. I've seen so much goofy stuff that it makes my head spin and were you to listen to the folk out there... there are more prophets or folks at least gifted with the prophetic than you can shake a stick at. Same with tongues etc. Much of it is just junk and nonsense... people in the flesh. When it comes to the prophetic... that's a scary thing for them because they do this junk and they really don't know God at all. Woe to the person that says "God says" when God ain't saying. That's a horrific place to be in and I fear it will number a great multitude if they don't very soon repent for such as that.

Nevertheless... all the goofiness aside.... that doesn't at all take away from the fact that the gift is a real gift or the callings very real callings. As long as there have been Prophets in Scripture... there have been more that were false Prophets. One can read that ALL throughout Scripture. That hasn't changed either.

Just want to clarify there so that folk DO NOT THINK that I am defending a lot of the junk that is out there today in the name of the gifts or callings. I do contend however that the gifts or calling are just as much for this day (as the Spirit sees fit to dole out) as they were in the days of Moses, Isaiah, Malachi, Peter, James, and Paul.

BroRog
Nov 5th 2010, 06:39 PM
Let me toss this in to help and to clarify.

This ain't the generic stuff that you hear a lot of today. I've seen so much goofy stuff that it makes my head spin and were you to listen to the folk out there... there are more prophets or folks at least gifted with the prophetic than you can shake a stick at. Same with tongues etc. Much of it is just junk and nonsense... people in the flesh. When it comes to the prophetic... that's a scary thing for them because they do this junk and they really don't know God at all. Woe to the person that says "God says" when God ain't saying. That's a horrific place to be in and I fear it will number a great multitude if they don't very soon repent for such as that.

Nevertheless... all the goofiness aside.... that doesn't at all take away from the fact that the gift is a real gift or the callings very real callings. As long as there have been Prophets in Scripture... there have been more that were false Prophets. One can read that ALL throughout Scripture. That hasn't changed either.

Just want to clarify there so that folk DO NOT THINK that I am defending a lot of the junk that is out there today in the name of the gifts or callings. I do contend however that the gifts or calling are just as much for this day (as the Spirit sees fit to dole out) as they were in the days of Moses, Isaiah, Malachi, Peter, James, and Paul.Do you have any advice for the rest of us as to how you spot the junk and how you know what is junk and what is authentic? Many of us would benefit from your experience.

divaD
Nov 5th 2010, 06:46 PM
Let me toss this in to help and to clarify.

This ain't the generic stuff that you hear a lot of today. I've seen so much goofy stuff that it makes my head spin and were you to listen to the folk out there... there are more prophets or folks at least gifted with the prophetic than you can shake a stick at. Same with tongues etc. Much of it is just junk and nonsense... people in the flesh. When it comes to the prophetic... that's a scary thing for them because they do this junk and they really don't know God at all. Woe to the person that says "God says" when God ain't saying. That's a horrific place to be in and I fear it will number a great multitude if they don't very soon repent for such as that.

Nevertheless... all the goofiness aside.... that doesn't at all take away from the fact that the gift is a real gift or the callings very real callings. As long as there have been Prophets in Scripture... there have been more that were false Prophets. One can read that ALL throughout Scripture. That hasn't changed either.

Just want to clarify there so that folk DO NOT THINK that I am defending a lot of the junk that is out there today in the name of the gifts or callings. I do contend however that the gifts or calling are just as much for this day (as the Spirit sees fit to dole out) as they were in the days of Moses, Isaiah, Malachi, Peter, James, and Paul.



From my perspective, I already discerned a long time ago by what you write, that you're not the type to be taken in by the goofiness that is out there. So no need to clarify for me, since I never discerned you as the type to be taken in by much of the goofiness out there, etc.. Perhaps someone else night benefit from the clarification tho, but not necessary for my sake.

Unfortunately not everyone is well grounded in the Word as you are. 20 some years ago I was basically involved in the goofiness of it all. Some of the things that I witnessed, that I thought was of the Holy Spirit at the time, when I look back on it today, I have to wonder..what was I even thinking? Those experiences at the time have pretty much turned me off to what one is claiming to be of the Spirit these days. Now I don't know what to think about it anymore. Confused.. if anything. Yet I believe everything written in the Bible, both OT and NT, to be true, tho I don't remotely fully understand a good majority of it.

ProjectPeter
Nov 5th 2010, 06:48 PM
Do you have any advice for the rest of us as to how you spot the junk and how you know what is junk and what is authentic? Many of us would benefit from your experience.

Discernment given by the Spirit... knowledge of Scripture... even times when all it takes is simple God-given common sense... and at times simply does what they say actually happen. I discount most generic stuff. If I see a person giving a bunch of prophetic words in one service and all those prophetic words are wonderul, sweet and nice... I know that ain't God because rest assured of this. The vast majority of people in a church are folks with issues... many of them sin issues and some bad issues. God ain't telling them how he's going to have them preaching to the nations and millions of people when they're wrapped up in sin up to their necks. There are many ways in which one can know when someone is bogus.

Slug1
Nov 5th 2010, 08:10 PM
Do you have any advice for the rest of us as to how you spot the junk and how you know what is junk and what is authentic? Many of us would benefit from your experience.Your question here is a great one on a few levels. One level is one your don't have to hurdle because from what I can recall, you do believe that God still uses people to give prophetic messages to either edify a person or an entire group of people. For those who don't, they aren't even past this 1st level and they will simple state, ALL prophecy is fake, false, conterfit, or worse of satan.

As ProjectPeter also stated... not all are going to be "nice". One of the first times a prophet came to me and gave me a message from God... I was placed in a discipline period of 40 days. Ya know what though, I received this because God had already convicted me so when this person told me this message and even knew in detail why I was in need, I was even further convicted.

Another time it was good news as I was praying to God for something... again, months later a prophet came to me, told me that God had heard my prayers, relayed to me what the answer was in direct relation to my prayer, to stop praying and start doing what I was asking for... after that I did what I was told and I have been exercising in what I asked for ever since in the church that I serve God.

Anyway... if a person doens't believe that there are people that God will give prophecy through... no sense for them to seek confirmation or even try to understand. Their lack of believe is their hindrance.

You also want to know when a real prophet enters a church... people begin to avoid them because they don't want to hear what God will say to them. As PP pointed out... many smiling church goers are not nice and very sinful the rest of the week. A man/women of God who is a prophet come to their church, they will avoid them like the plague. I've seen this... people at church every time the doors are open won;t even come to church the day's a prophet is the guest speaker.

notuptome
Nov 5th 2010, 08:39 PM
Why will it fail?
1 Cor 13:8-12 when that which is perfect is come these things come to a conclusion. Tongues, prophesy, and knowledge but charity never faileth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 5th 2010, 09:02 PM
You call it the "primitive church" although no where in Scripture does it allude to the idea that this is the old way and it will change as seasons and generations change. The only time it will change is when Christ returns and it's all done but the shouting.
That is like calling Henry Ford's Model T and the 2011 Taurus SHO the same automobile. All of the history of the church cries out in protest to what you assert.

NO WHERE do you read where ANY OF the Apostles write... "when we're done writing all this stuff out then perfection is come." Do you? You ASSUME that is what that means... right? So then please tell me how it is that you go on about someone following the teaching of man while ignoring Scripture?
You will not find the trinity written in the scriptures but it is there.

Thing is... you can't even really make the case that "that which is perfect" has come. Certainly you can't make it the way you do because even after Paul penned his last letter and John, Peter, James, and Jude their last letter or letters... very few people would have had access to those letters and it really wasn't until fairly modern times that we got all that we have now bound up in a single book that we call the Bible. So that which is perfect... wasn't all that perfect until fairly recent time... if you want to be consistent here Roger. That which is perfect isn't the Bible.
If that which is perfect isn't the bible then please illustrate the bible's shortcomings. God has always been able to see that the church has what it needs to be witnesses for Him. Neither you nor I was there in the first century but God was. The word of God was given by the prophets and then the apostles how long the process took is Gods business not mine. I'm here in this century and the word of God is complete and readily available. No excuses.

When the Lord returns tongues will be seen in the Jews and all of Joel's prophecy will be fulfilled. At the close of the millenium tongues will no longer be needed again.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 5th 2010, 09:27 PM
You also want to know when a real prophet enters a church... people begin to avoid them because they don't want to hear what God will say to them. As PP pointed out... many smiling church goers are not nice and very sinful the rest of the week. A man/women of God who is a prophet come to their church, they will avoid them like the plague. I've seen this... people at church every time the doors are open won;t even come to church the day's a prophet is the guest speaker.
Well it is refreshing to see that you do not stereotype people. I always thought that prophets had camel hair rainment and leather belts, and only ate locusts with wild honey. Guess that would be too much of a give away.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 5th 2010, 11:31 PM
Well it is refreshing to see that you do not stereotype people. I always thought that prophets had camel hair rainment and leather belts, and only ate locusts with wild honey. Guess that would be too much of a give away.

For the cause of Christ
RogerNo Roger they look like normal people but are usually much more humble than the average Christian.

ProjectPeter
Nov 6th 2010, 12:10 AM
1 Cor 13:8-12 when that which is perfect is come these things come to a conclusion. Tongues, prophesy, and knowledge but charity never faileth.

For the cause of Christ
RogerAnd naturally... it doesn';t say what "that which is perfect" is and your doctrine says it is the written scripture. I totally disagree because written Scripture isn't perfection... never was nor was it intended to be.

ProjectPeter
Nov 6th 2010, 12:19 AM
That is like calling Henry Ford's Model T and the 2011 Taurus SHO the same automobile. All of the history of the church cries out in protest to what you assert. Uh... if you want to take it to the nth degree I suppose. Nevertheless... both are cars and both got you where you needed to be without walking. As to ALL the church crying out in protest... funny because what one often hears, across denominational lines, is that we need to GET BACK to the church of Scripture. So guess it totally depends on how one wants to pick apart the point. ;)


You will not find the trinity written in the scriptures but it is there.Sure you will find it there because it suits you. If it didn't suit you... you would say "where is it at in Scripture?" Sort of an age old issue.





If that which is perfect isn't the bible then please illustrate the bible's shortcomings. God has always been able to see that the church has what it needs to be witnesses for Him.It ain't Christ. If I didn't have that little leather book we call the Bible but I had Christ... I have that which is perfect. MANY places don't have these little books we are blessed enough to have and are probably in much better shape than many of us are who have it. The words point us to Christ and give us doctrine, correction and reproof... but that's where it ends. You can read it and memorize it and know everything it says and every lesson it teaches and follow the rules laid out in it... and still fry for eternity in hell. That's a reality that many will face come one day.




Neither you nor I was there in the first century but God was. The word of God was given by the prophets and then the apostles how long the process took is Gods business not mine. I'm here in this century and the word of God is complete and readily available. No excuses. Okay. Not sure your point because that don't make it "that which is perfect."


When the Lord returns tongues will be seen in the Jews and all of Joel's prophecy will be fulfilled. At the close of the millenium tongues will no longer be needed again.Huh? So you're saying that the time of Joel was fulfilled on Pentecost then stopped for XXX time and will start again when the Lord returns?

Slug1
Nov 6th 2010, 12:42 AM
1 Cor 13:8-12 when that which is perfect is come these things come to a conclusion. Tongues, prophesy, and knowledge but charity never faileth.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger, in the context of this scripture, let me once again point something out:

v12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Scripture states... //but then face to face//... so when have you come face to face with, that which is perfect HAS COME... yet? You haven't come face to face with the perfect because CHRIST has not returned. Scripture is not "the perfect", Christ is the perfect and when He comes, you will be face to face and then there will be no more need for tongues, prophecy, and knowledge because you will... //then be face to face//. So presently we experience this is part.

John even tells us about the fact that knowledge was kept from us... this is why we see through a mirror dimly... it's because we don't even have all of the scriptures at our disposal.

notuptome
Nov 6th 2010, 12:34 PM
It ain't Christ. If I didn't have that little leather book we call the Bible but I had Christ... I have that which is perfect. MANY places don't have these little books we are blessed enough to have and are probably in much better shape than many of us are who have it. The words point us to Christ and give us doctrine, correction and reproof... but that's where it ends. You can read it and memorize it and know everything it says and every lesson it teaches and follow the rules laid out in it... and still fry for eternity in hell. That's a reality that many will face come one day.
It ain't Christ. Although Christ is perfect in the context here it ain't Christ. Christ was here and now He has gone away. Yes He's coming back and guess what Israel for whom He's coming will speak tongues and dream dreams and see visions but our expectation in these verses is not the second coming of Christ. The church ain't Israel. The work that was to be completed before the return of Christ was the delivery of the NT scriptures.

Huh? So you're saying that the time of Joel was fulfilled on Pentecost then stopped for XXX time and will start again when the Lord returns?
Joel was not fulfilled at pentacost. Joel 2:28-30 includes nore than tongues. There are signs not yet revealed but which shall be revealed when Christ returns to deliver Israel from destruction. Peter never said Joel was fulfilled only that the signs seen at pentacost were those spoken of by Joel. Joel 2:30-31 clearly remain unfulfilled.

Pentacost is the former rain spoken of by Joel 2:23. Rain, a life giving blessing, given moderately with a promise for a latter rain and an abundant harvest. The latter rain speaks of Christs return and His establishing His kingdom on earth for one thousand years. Hosea 6:3, Jer 5:24, Det 11:14 and Jas 5:7 demonstrates that the Jewish Christians in the early church were very familiar with this prophesy. Christ's first advent was little noticed by Israel but His second advent will usher in the abundant harvest and blessing. Times of severe judgment preceding the rains.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 6th 2010, 12:40 PM
Roger, in the context of this scripture, let me once again point something out:

v12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Scripture states... //but then face to face//... so when have you come face to face with, that which is perfect HAS COME... yet? You haven't come face to face with the perfect because CHRIST has not returned. Scripture is not "the perfect", Christ is the perfect and when He comes, you will be face to face and then there will be no more need for tongues, prophecy, and knowledge because you will... //then be face to face//. So presently we experience this is part.

John even tells us about the fact that knowledge was kept from us... this is why we see through a mirror dimly... it's because we don't even have all of the scriptures at our disposal.
Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all the revealed truth in Gods word. The veil of the temple was rent in twain that we may have access to God. Not darkly or through the veil but face to face through the blood of Christ. Heb 10:19-20 Paul would not have written 1 Cor 13:8-13 if these things would not occur until Christ returns.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 6th 2010, 01:10 PM
Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all the revealed truth in Gods word. The veil of the temple was rent in twain that we may have access to God. Not darkly or through the veil but face to face through the blood of Christ. Heb 10:19-20 Paul would not have written 1 Cor 13:8-13 if these things would not occur until Christ returns.

For the cause of Christ
RogerHe wrote that (1 Cor 13:8-12) to inform us that we are in part until we are face to face with Christ and then we will be "whole".

notuptome
Nov 6th 2010, 03:50 PM
He wrote that (1 Cor 13:8-12) to inform us that we are in part until we are face to face with Christ and then we will be "whole".
Paul said we know in part not that we are in part. From the OT we could only know in part as they were a shadow of the better things to come in Christ Who is the testator of the NT. Heb 9:14-17 Of course Hebrews was not yet written when 1 Corinthians was written.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Nov 6th 2010, 04:11 PM
Paul said we know in part not that we are in part. From the OT we could only know in part as they were a shadow of the better things to come in Christ Who is the testator of the NT. Heb 9:14-17 Of course Hebrews was not yet written when 1 Corinthians was written.

For the cause of Christ
RogerIf I know that my brother is hungry, then I know "in part". If I feed him, I know in full.

ProjectPeter
Nov 6th 2010, 05:21 PM
It ain't Christ. Although Christ is perfect in the context here it ain't Christ. Christ was here and now He has gone away. Yes He's coming back and guess what Israel for whom He's coming will speak tongues and dream dreams and see visions but our expectation in these verses is not the second coming of Christ. The church ain't Israel. The work that was to be completed before the return of Christ was the delivery of the NT scriptures. And when He comes... perfection is here. Paul wasn't speaking of the second coming as an event but speaking of the time when the gifts will no longer need to be in place. The head will now be in place physically speaking.


Joel was not fulfilled at pentacost. Joel 2:28-30 includes nore than tongues. There are signs not yet revealed but which shall be revealed when Christ returns to deliver Israel from destruction. Peter never said Joel was fulfilled only that the signs seen at pentacost were those spoken of by Joel. Joel 2:30-31 clearly remain unfulfilled. Uh... no. It is being fulfilled in the last days. Those last days began at Pentecost.

Jews: What in the world is all this crazy stuff?

Peter: It's what Joel spoke about.

Now... you say it wasn't really what Joel was speaking of thus Peter sort of hosed up bringing that whole Joel thing up? Come on Roger... Peter said this is what Joel spoke about thus... it is what Joel spoke about. When Christ returns... that prophecy will be completed and totally fulfilled with that whole darkening and fire and all the other cool stuff he spoke about. ;)


Pentacost is the former rain spoken of by Joel 2:23. Rain, a life giving blessing, given moderately with a promise for a latter rain and an abundant harvest. The latter rain speaks of Christs return and His establishing His kingdom on earth for one thousand years. Hosea 6:3, Jer 5:24, Det 11:14 and Jas 5:7 demonstrates that the Jewish Christians in the early church were very familiar with this prophesy. Christ's first advent was little noticed by Israel but His second advent will usher in the abundant harvest and blessing. Times of severe judgment preceding the rains.

For the cause of Christ
RogerOne can take all sorts of things and make them fit whatever they want them to fit. The latter and former rain is one of those things that means a whole bunch of things... depends on what one wants it to believe hence the myriad of different understandings. ;)

notuptome
Nov 6th 2010, 06:46 PM
One can take all sorts of things and make them fit whatever they want them to fit. The latter and former rain is one of those things that means a whole bunch of things... depends on what one wants it to believe hence the myriad of different understandings. ;)
1 Cor 2:10-13 ...God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God... Which things also we speak, not in words which mans wisdom teacheth, but with the Holy Spirit teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

There is only one correct understanding of Gods word. It is usually only discerned by dilligent study.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 6th 2010, 06:56 PM
If I know that my brother is hungry, then I know "in part". If I feed him, I know in full.
John 17:3 ...that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent.

These will never hunger again. Having life eternal.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 6th 2010, 07:07 PM
1 Cor 2:10-13 ...God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God... Which things also we speak, not in words which mans wisdom teacheth, but with the Holy Spirit teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

There is only one correct understanding of Gods word. It is usually only discerned by dilligent study.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Sure... until someone says their conclusion came the same way then you want it spelled out! ;)

Rest assured... I've talked to countless people that would make this claim and they all do that there study and come to their conclusions by the Spirit... yet they differ.

notuptome
Nov 6th 2010, 09:06 PM
Sure... until someone says their conclusion came the same way then you want it spelled out! ;)

Rest assured... I've talked to countless people that would make this claim and they all do that there study and come to their conclusions by the Spirit... yet they differ.
I'm waiting for someone from your side of the issue to provide a scriptural basis for the reason they support the continuation of tongues in the church.

To simply obfuscate the issue is of little merit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 6th 2010, 09:31 PM
I'm waiting for someone from your side of the issue to provide a scriptural basis for the reason they support the continuation of tongues in the church.

To simply obfuscate the issue is of little merit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Um... because that which is perfect ain't here yet. Thought we already had that discussion. ;)

Slug1
Nov 6th 2010, 11:26 PM
I'm waiting for someone from your side of the issue to provide a scriptural basis for the reason they support the continuation of tongues in the church.

To simply obfuscate the issue is of little merit.

For the cause of Christ
RogerBecause we still do in part until the "perfect" (Jesus) returns and we are face to face with Him!!! You posted all the scripture yourself.

BroRog
Nov 7th 2010, 01:58 AM
I'm waiting for someone from your side of the issue to provide a scriptural basis for the reason they support the continuation of tongues in the church.

To simply obfuscate the issue is of little merit.

For the cause of Christ
RogerI take a more pragmatic approach in this instance. I think that if the Holy Spirit wants one of his ministers to preach the gospel to someone, and the listener speaks a foreign language unknown to the speaker, the Holy Spirit will supernaturally translate the speaker's words into a language the listener can understand. I see no reason why the Holy Spirit should limit himself or us in our mission to save souls.

kay-gee
Nov 7th 2010, 01:09 PM
Big problem. "the perfect" is a noun. A thing. Jesus is not a thing. Paul never refers to Him as such. When ever Paul talks of this appearing He simply say the "Appearing of our Lord and Saviour" For instance Titus 2:13, 1st Thess 4:13.

No the perfect in Cor 13:10 has something to due with maturity. vs 11 gives that away. He begins the whole discourse talking about love and how this supercedes all the other things including tongues, martyrdom, knowledge. Then he says in vs 13 that when all is said and done, Love and Hope will survive. I see no reason for hope and faith when Jesus comes.

I believe making the perfect be Christ is a way to side step the doctrine of maturity, for something else.

all the best...

ProjectPeter
Nov 7th 2010, 07:57 PM
Big problem. "the perfect" is a noun. A thing. Jesus is not a thing. Paul never refers to Him as such. When ever Paul talks of this appearing He simply say the "Appearing of our Lord and Saviour" For instance Titus 2:13, 1st Thess 4:13.

No the perfect in Cor 13:10 has something to due with maturity. vs 11 gives that away. He begins the whole discourse talking about love and how this supercedes all the other things including tongues, martyrdom, knowledge. Then he says in vs 13 that when all is said and done, Love and Hope will survive. I see no reason for hope and faith when Jesus comes.

I believe making the perfect be Christ is a way to side step the doctrine of maturity, for something else.

all the best...

And what is that maturity in context with what Paul is speaking of in 1 Corinthians 13? And by the way... not disagreeing with you nor do I.

notuptome
Nov 8th 2010, 01:18 PM
I take a more pragmatic approach in this instance. I think that if the Holy Spirit wants one of his ministers to preach the gospel to someone, and the listener speaks a foreign language unknown to the speaker, the Holy Spirit will supernaturally translate the speaker's words into a language the listener can understand. I see no reason why the Holy Spirit should limit himself or us in our mission to save souls.
This is light years away from what goes on in the modern charasmatic/pentacostal church. I would not nor could not object to tongues in the circumstance you describe. Yet all the missionaries going to fields where they do not know the language hve need to learn the language before they go. I know that many have received of the Lord an understanding of the native dialects that they could not learn in language class.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Nov 8th 2010, 04:07 PM
This is light years away from what goes on in the modern charasmatic/pentacostal church. I would not nor could not object to tongues in the circumstance you describe. Yet all the missionaries going to fields where they do not know the language hve need to learn the language before they go. I know that many have received of the Lord an understanding of the native dialects that they could not learn in language class.

For the cause of Christ
RogerPraise the Lord. I'm so glad that the Holy Spirit is leading good hearted men and women to reach out to the lost, and helping them, supernaturally if need be, in their efforts. Thank you Jesus!

Bladers
Nov 10th 2010, 07:02 PM
Jesus is coming back and when He does Joel will be fulfilled. Tongues and the other sign gifts will commence again among the Jews who will be in the millenial kingdom. So you are again not correct in your assumptions.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hey roger. When looking through the thread, I spotted your post because it caught my attention. So here is my response. Peter made this statement, "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"

What do you make of this because it seems to contradicts your entire statement and according to peter, it was actually in fulfillment at that moment. In addition, He said the promise was not only to them and their children and children's children, but to "as many as the LORD our God shall call." (Meaning any human being)

To Butch,
Hey.

I was glancing through some of your posts and I stubbled upon where you made a statement that tongues is for preaching the gospel.
But as PP addressed, there is no indication of that in the NT. Rather we see that tongues are for PRAISE. Those around Jerusalem who witnessed this astonishing event testified that "we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God." That is not preaching, but rather PRAISE and THANKSGIVING, speaking forth the mighty works of God . Its crucial that we look at the events correlating to tongues in action, events that shows us how tongues actually works. It was after those disciples at Pentecost praised God in tongues that peter stepped up and preached the Gospel: Jesus and him crucified.

Another expect of the gift of tongues is, it is spoken to God. We find examples of this in the Book of Acts where we see incidents where a group of people or one person is speaking in tongues. Well, no one is there and they are surely not preaching, but are certainly praising God. We see these events prominently when someone is baptized with the Holy Spirit as the bible indicates. We have no event in the bible where tongues are used for preaching.


I've shown it twice, is there any need to post it again? I really don't understand why Christians choose doctrine over Scripture. I've shown where Paul said that Tongues "IS NOT" for believers but for unbelievers, yet Christians seem to think it is the opposite.

Another statement you made is that tongues are for unbelievers because the bible state, "its a sign to unbelievers". Well hold your horses, it says "ITS A SIGN TO", It doesn't say its "FOR". Paul clearly said the Gospel to those that perish is foolishness, so is the gospel not for us, is it foolishness to us too? We might well go eat, drink, party, and get ready to die.

Anyway, that is just my twenty cents on the topic.

notuptome
Nov 10th 2010, 11:05 PM
Hey roger. When looking through the thread, I spotted your post because it caught my attention. So here is my response. Peter made this statement, "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"

What do you make of this because it seems to contradicts your entire statement and according to peter, it was actually in fulfillment at that moment. In addition, He said the promise was not only to them and their children and children's children, but to "as many as the LORD our God shall call." (Meaning any human being)
Joel was not fulfilled because the other signs were not present and will not be present until the time of the Lord's return. the sun truned to darkness and the moon turned to blood. Joel 2:31 What was seen at pentacost was like the former rain a blessing limited in scale but the certain promise of the full blessing later as in the latter rain. Joel 2:23 former rain moderately.

Peter described the appearance of the tongues as the promise of Joel that those present might understand that the apostles and disciples were not drunk as some were supposing in their hearts. Joels prophsey was for Israel not the church. The church received the blessing of Holy Spirit power at pentacost but Israel still waits for her portion. Salvation is to the Jew first and then to the gentiles. Israel rejected Christ and opened the promise of grace to the gentiles but Israel has not been forsaken and shall be redeemed for the sake of Gods name. Isa 48:9-11

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 10th 2010, 11:17 PM
THIS IS THAT... what does that mean if not THIS IS THAT which Joel spoke of? You are totally contradicting what Peter in fact said Roger. While it certainly isn't completed.. it just as certainly began that day.

notuptome
Nov 11th 2010, 09:08 PM
THIS IS THAT... what does that mean if not THIS IS THAT which Joel spoke of? You are totally contradicting what Peter in fact said Roger. While it certainly isn't completed.. it just as certainly began that day.
Peter knew this scripture thoroughly. Peter understood the former rain moderately of Joel 2:23. Peter also understood Zech 12:10 where Jehovah promised to pour our His Spirit upon the house of David when Christ returns. The latter rain spoken of by Joel. Peter also understood Num 11:29 where Moses desired that the Spirit of the Lord should put His Spirit upon them that they all should be prophets. These prophesies are to Israel and not to the church. The prophesy cannot be fulfilled until it is fulfilled in Israel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 11th 2010, 09:23 PM
Peter knew this scripture thoroughly. Peter understood the former rain moderately of Joel 2:23. Peter also understood Zech 12:10 where Jehovah promised to pour our His Spirit upon the house of David when Christ returns. The latter rain spoken of by Joel. Peter also understood Num 11:29 where Moses desired that the Spirit of the Lord should put His Spirit upon them that they all should be prophets. These prophesies are to Israel and not to the church. The prophesy cannot be fulfilled until it is fulfilled in Israel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Peter didn't say that this was for later though. Peter told them that they were witnessing this prophecy being fulfilled starting that day.

notuptome
Nov 11th 2010, 09:35 PM
Peter didn't say that this was for later though. Peter told them that they were witnessing this prophecy being fulfilled starting that day.
Israel has not yet seen Her Christ. That is later. Zech 12:10 The Spirit is poured out on Israel because she sees her Saviour. Prophesy is to Israel not the church. Signs are for Israel not the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 11th 2010, 11:07 PM
Israel has not yet seen Her Christ. That is later. Zech 12:10 The Spirit is poured out on Israel because she sees her Saviour. Prophesy is to Israel not the church. Signs are for Israel not the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And again... what did Peter say? Did Peter say that what they were seeing THEN was what the Prophet Joel spoke of?

notuptome
Nov 12th 2010, 07:35 PM
And again... what did Peter say? Did Peter say that what they were seeing THEN was what the Prophet Joel spoke of?
Peter said that this was the Lord pouring out His Spirit upon those present as Joel prophesied would happen to Israel in the last days. Clear?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 12th 2010, 09:53 PM
Peter said that this was the Lord pouring out His Spirit upon those present as Joel prophesied would happen to Israel in the last days. Clear?

For the cause of Christ
RogerI suspect you are keying on the "those present" but that's problematic. We know that even years later God was still pouring that Spirit out on people... even Gentiles.

notuptome
Nov 13th 2010, 01:57 PM
I suspect you are keying on the "those present" but that's problematic. We know that even years later God was still pouring that Spirit out on people... even Gentiles.
In the sense of salvation true. In the sense of signs ie tongues nope.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 13th 2010, 03:45 PM
In the sense of salvation true. In the sense of signs ie tongues nope.

For the cause of Christ
RogerThen how are we to do the Great Commission?

ProjectPeter
Nov 13th 2010, 06:27 PM
In the sense of salvation true. In the sense of signs ie tongues nope.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger... you go on an awful lot about CONTEXT and what is the context here when Peter says what he says? You know well it is speaking of the things they were seeing and hearing and not salvation. Right?

notuptome
Nov 13th 2010, 06:46 PM
Roger... you go on an awful lot about CONTEXT and what is the context here when Peter says what he says? You know well it is speaking of the things they were seeing and hearing and not salvation. Right?
My reply was in the context you framed not the context Peter framed. God is pouring out His Spirit even today every time a sinner comes to Christ. God is not pouring our His Spirit on Israel today but He will when Christ returns. Signs are for Israel not for the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 13th 2010, 06:49 PM
Then how are we to do the Great Commission?
By witnessing, by preaching the word of God that Christ might be lifted up and sinners drawn to Him for salvation of their souls. Signs and wonders are for Israel not for the church.

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching the cross to save those that believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 13th 2010, 08:23 PM
My reply was in the context you framed not the context Peter framed. God is pouring out His Spirit even today every time a sinner comes to Christ. God is not pouring our His Spirit on Israel today but He will when Christ returns. Signs are for Israel not for the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I see. So... to you the only part that applies is "God is pouring out His Spirit" and everything afterward is only for the Jew? Roger... that's picking don[t you think? And no... it wasn't in context because Peter specifically says that what they were seeing was prophecy of Joel fulfilling itself... your sons and daughter.... etc. That IS what he is saying Roger. You have to force it into what you are saying and in doing so you ultimately are saying that REGARDLESS of what Peter said... that's NOT how it really was. He said it Roger... only your doctrine isn't allowing for it to be what it actually says.

Church Buddy
Nov 13th 2010, 09:32 PM
I am almost hesitant to reply to this post. The reason is most evident in the lack of ears to the scripture, but here is what I have to say, and I know I am opening myself up, but here goes.

What church doesn't allow women to speak in church?

1 Cor 14
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

I don't just mean getting up and preaching up front to the congregation, and neither did Paul. He was referring to them speaking out about anything that was being taught. Teaching is what goes on when people are in church as well as praising God. To often I see women stand up as though they are qualified to conduct God's business and this is disgraceful. They end up getting mad and making a scene when things don't go their way, and it just goes further to prove the point. They are not qualified by God to do the teaching of God's will.

I do not say this because I have been wronged, but I say this because God has been wronged. It should stop everywhere, but who will stand up to say "Stop!"

I do not say this because I am a bigot. No, I want at all cost to follow the will of God. If God didn’t want it to be so, he would not have had it on Paul’s heart to speak of it. I use this as an example of how many of us chose not to follow his will. And in doing so, how can we say that we can even take part of God’s Spirit? I could use many examples, but this one was right in front of us, and yet look at how it was over looked.

So first off, if this is in your church, how can this happen? How can this be allowed? If a child reaches for a pot of boiling water from the stove, would not, out of love, the parent scold the child of the consequences of its actions?

1 Cor 13
1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

If this love is not done in a tone that prevents the actions from occurring, would one not say it is more like a resounding gong, and without love? For if a mother truly loves the child, she would be screaming at the top of her lungs to prevent the inevitable.


Now to go back to the question, I would like to point out that everyone, not isolating anyone, that was a part of this church, spoke in tongues when they prayed. Even Paul stated that he could speak in tongues.

1 Cor 14
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

I bring this up because I have heard others speak as though only the Apostles had this ability.

I also read where someone brought up the day of the Pentecost where they spoke in tongues.

Acts 2
1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

Did any of the disciples understand what the disciples were saying? No, but did anyone understand what was being said? Yes. So in truth, this is not the speaking of tongues that Paul was referring to. This is what Paul was referring to as how the speaking of tongues should work...

1 Cor 14
9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me.

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

Those who speak in Tongues are believers only, but if you believe, you obey.

John 8
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

One should not have to read any further than verse one to know what God wants of us.

1 Cor 14
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

Where is our heart that we allow God's church to be watered down? When was the last time we stood up in public, in front of our own congregation to speak out about disobedience to God's will?

1 Cor 14
12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

Now that all that has been said, here is the answer to your question. What does it mean to do things “In the Spirit?”
Since you capitalized the word spirit you are referring to the Holy Spirit, and that is a part of God. To do things in the Spirit means that God is guiding you to do something. The real question should be, will you follow?

Butch5
Nov 13th 2010, 10:52 PM
As Paul said... so that the church body can be edified. He says that very thing eh?

1 Corinthians 14:5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

Yes, he does. The point is, if the purpose of tongues was to talk to God, why would Paul even be speaking of the church being edified? Again, his point is to edify the “Church” and “Not” themselves. It seems this would indicate that tongues was for a purpose “Other” than speaking to God, which is what I said.



Uh... yes. Now he is speaking of them being one body and the need for all the BODY parts with VARYING gifts are to work together as ONE SINGLE body. Paul's long now moved beyond that initial rebuke.

1 Corinthians 12:18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now there are many members, but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
23 and those members of the body, which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our unseemly members come to have more abundant seemliness,
24 whereas our seemly members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
25 that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?


Context doesn't allow for you to ignore this. You certainly can ignore it and it appears you do... but you're way off the context track by doing so.

Come on man, I not ignoring anything.



Uh... it wasn't just rebuke. It was also instruction. Come on now... Paul didn't write all this just blessing them out.... you've got some messed up understanding here if that's all you got to say about this entire letter!

I didn’t say he did not give instruction, I said he was rebuking them in this letter, surely you can see the sarcasm.

I don’t think God needs Christians to speak in tongues so that he can understand them


Uh... it was a rebuke with instruction offered to correct the problem. GIVE THE TONGUE IF THERE IS AN INTERPRETER and then the BODY is edified. you keep leaving that part of the passage out... why is that?

I’m leaving it out, just making the point. Self edification is not what Christians are called to, thus Paul’s rebuke.



Uh... no. It was told them not to do it when they gather because it wasn't orderly. IF THERE IS NO INTERPRETER... Don't? That isn't what Paul said at all and if it was a rebuke to NOT DO IT then he'd of made that clear. Instead... Paul said this.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit and I shall pray with the mind also; I shall sing with the spirit and I shall sing with the mind also.
16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?
17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;
19 however, in the churchI desire to speak five words with my mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Paul spake them often privately as he implies clearly here. In the church though... that wasn't as important to him because unless interpreted it edified no one when a prophetic word in their own language was clear and they understood.

He also goes on to say...

1 Corinthians 14:26 ¶What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and let one interpret;
28 but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

If no interpreter then don't speak in tongues? Not what Paul said. Paul said to keep silent and speak to HIMSELF and to GOD. So you're ignoring an awful lot in order to hang onto your own personal doctrine... in that you're wrong and Scripture shows that clearly.


Did you read my statement? I said, “Edifying oneself” by speaking in tongues Paul didn’t want them to do. I never said he didn’t want them to speak in tongues.



Dude... you really have this all skeewaddy.

That won't work.



I understand folks that at least think it stopped and all. But you're just saying it wasn't supposed to be done at all and Paul was fussing at them for it and all. That's just odd... not to mention so contrary to the passage that nothing much else I can say. You see the entire letter as a rebuke and that's how you look at it and can't see the instruction in it even though you pick the parts you want as instruction.

Paul wasn't rebuking them for speaking in tongues. He was rebuking them for speaking in tongues out of order. The rebuke wasn't DON'T DO IT. The rebuke was don't everyone do it and do it without an interpreter because otherwise the speaker was the only one edified. Since the speaker is the only one edified (without an interpreter) then there was no need to give it aloud. Do it quietly between you and God. Now... if there is an interpreter... a couple or three of you go ahead on. Then hush and let others participate with their gifts in the gathering.

In all honesty... the problem was likely the same as it is now. More focus was put on speaking in tongues than other gifts and everyone apparently thought that super cool to do... it was a big deal. Paul told them... not that big a deal at all really... all parts have a place and all gifts have a place etc. The body doesn't just consist or a tongue or lips... there is also toes, feet, fingers and hands. That was Paul's point and tossed in between the instruction and the fussing... the main point. You can talk in tongues until your pie hole slams shut... you can prophesy until the cows come home... you can have faith to move the biggest mountain... you can sell every bit of your stuff and feed the Israeli Army... but if you ain't got love... you ain't nothing.

NEVER does he jone's on folks for speaking in tongues as a spiritual deed and practice. He just corrected them in how they are to do so in the gathering of believers.


Man this gets old. Did you read what I wrote? Nowhere did I say that Paul told them not to speak in tongues, I said he did not want them to edify themselves by speaking in tongues. Nowhere did I say Paul did not give them instruction, I simply said that he was rebuking them. He was rebuking them for several issues, among which was the abuse of Spiritual gifts, mainly tongues. He clearly tells them what the use of tongues is when he says tongues is for those who believe not. It was a message from God through the believer to the unbeliever. You can deny that if you like, but, one only needs to look at Paul’s own words to see otherwise. He quotes from Isaiah and we can see the context from which he quotes the passage.

Butch5
Nov 13th 2010, 10:58 PM
I am almost hesitant to reply to this post. The reason is most evident in the lack of ears to the scripture, but here is what I have to say, and I know I am opening myself up, but here goes.

What church doesn't allow women to speak in church?

1 Cor 14
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

I don't just mean getting up and preaching up front to the congregation, and neither did Paul. He was referring to them speaking out about anything that was being taught. Teaching is what goes on when people are in church as well as praising God. To often I see women stand up as though they are qualified to conduct God's business and this is disgraceful. They end up getting mad and making a scene when things don't go their way, and it just goes further to prove the point. They are not qualified by God to do the teaching of God's will.

I do not say this because I have been wronged, but I say this because God has been wronged. It should stop everywhere, but who will stand up to say "Stop!"

I do not say this because I am a bigot. No, I want at all cost to follow the will of God. If God didn’t want it to be so, he would not have had it on Paul’s heart to speak of it. I use this as an example of how many of us chose not to follow his will. And in doing so, how can we say that we can even take part of God’s Spirit? I could use many examples, but this one was right in front of us, and yet look at how it was over looked.

So first off, if this is in your church, how can this happen? How can this be allowed? If a child reaches for a pot of boiling water from the stove, would not, out of love, the parent scold the child of the consequences of its actions?

1 Cor 13
1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

If this love is not done in a tone that prevents the actions from occurring, would one not say it is more like a resounding gong, and without love? For if a mother truly loves the child, she would be screaming at the top of her lungs to prevent the inevitable.


Now to go back to the question, I would like to point out that everyone, not isolating anyone, that was a part of this church, spoke in tongues when they prayed. Even Paul stated that he could speak in tongues.

1 Cor 14
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

I bring this up because I have heard others speak as though only the Apostles had this ability.

I also read where someone brought up the day of the Pentecost where they spoke in tongues.

Acts 2
1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

Did any of the disciples understand what the disciples were saying? No, but did anyone understand what was being said? Yes. So in truth, this is not the speaking of tongues that Paul was referring to. This is what Peter was referring to as how the speaking of tongues should work...

1 Cor 14
9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me.

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

Tongues are for believers only, but if you believe, you obey.

John 8
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

One should not have to read any further than verse one to know what God wants of us.

1 Cor 14
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

Where is our heart that we allow God's church to be watered down? When was the last time we stood up in public, in front of our own congregation to speak out about disobedience to God's will?

1 Cor 14
12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

Now that all that has been said, here is the answer to your question. What does it mean to do things “In the Spirit?”
Since you capitalized the word spirit you are referring to the Holy Spirit, and that is a part of God. To do things in the Spirit means that God is guiding you to do something. The real question should be, will you follow?

Dude,

You quoted Paul's statement that says tongues was for the unbeliever, then you said that tongues was for the believer only. Are you defying the apostle???

Church Buddy
Nov 14th 2010, 03:09 AM
Dude,

You quoted Paul's statement that says tongues was for the unbeliever, then you said that tongues was for the believer only. Are you defying the apostle???

Tongues are for believers only, but if you believe, you obey.


Sorry, I should have been clearer on that point. I mean that only the "Believer" can speak in tongues. To do this one has to believe whole heartedly, and if you believe, you are obedient to the teachings of Christ.

I would also like to further my point by pointing to this scripture (NIV).

Isaiah 59
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.

If you are not willing to deal with the sin around you, how can the Spirt, a part of God, enter into you so that you may be guided to do anything?

Unless...Perhaps this is the case.

2 Thessalonian 2
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

If you fall into group one, there is hope...

James 5
16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

If you fall into group two, my heart goes out to you.

Butch5
Nov 15th 2010, 02:03 AM
Tongues are for believers only, but if you believe, you obey.


Sorry, I should have been clearer on that point. I mean that only the "Believer" can speak in tongues. To do this one has to believe whole heartedly, and if you believe, you are obedient to the teachings of Christ.

I would also like to further my point by pointing to this scripture (NIV).

Isaiah 59
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.

If you are not willing to deal with the sin around you, how can the Spirt, a part of God, enter into you so that you may be guided to do anything?

Unless...Perhaps this is the case.

2 Thessalonian 2
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

If you fall into group one, there is hope...

James 5
16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

If you fall into group two, my heart goes out to you.

Tonuges were spoken by believers but Paul says the purpose was for the unbeliever. However, I believe that tongues was for that time.

Church Buddy
Nov 15th 2010, 11:04 AM
Tonuges were spoken by believers but Paul says the purpose was for the unbeliever. However, I believe that tongues was for that time.

I don't speak in tongues myself. I doesn't bother me though, if I see someone speaking in tongues. If that draws them closer to God, Amen. However, to say what you didn't believe it could happen today is also like saying that you don't believe in prophesy. I have however taken part in prophesy, so I have first hand experience with that. In the same passage that Paul talks about speaking in tongues, he also advocates prophesying. Why would there be one, and not the other in today's time?

My above post was to clarify that I understood that tongues were for the unbeliever, and that I meant to say where I highlighted in blue, that only believers spoke in tongues. A non-believer or even a Jew would not have spoken in tongues as there is not reference in the Tanach, the Jewish Bible of anyone speaking in tongues except during the tower of Babel.

notuptome
Nov 15th 2010, 02:49 PM
I see. So... to you the only part that applies is "God is pouring out His Spirit" and everything afterward is only for the Jew? Roger... that's picking don[t you think? And no... it wasn't in context because Peter specifically says that what they were seeing was prophecy of Joel fulfilling itself... your sons and daughter.... etc. That IS what he is saying Roger. You have to force it into what you are saying and in doing so you ultimately are saying that REGARDLESS of what Peter said... that's NOT how it really was. He said it Roger... only your doctrine isn't allowing for it to be what it actually says.
If one reads carefully and accurately one finds that Peter states that the Spirit of God is poured out on all flesh. He then specifically states that it is your sons, your daughters, your young men, your old men and my servants and my handmaids, these are specific people and not all flesh. All flesh includes gentiles and this pertains to ths promise of salvation by grace through faith in Christ, the specific persons mentioned are Israel and they are included in all flesh for salvation but separated for the gifts of signs and miracles.

When you blur what is clearly said you cannot see what Peter was declaring before his mainly Jewish audience. The church does not usurp the prophsey given for Israel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 15th 2010, 08:51 PM
If one reads carefully and accurately one finds that Peter states that the Spirit of God is poured out on all flesh. He then specifically states that it is your sons, your daughters, your young men, your old men and my servants and my handmaids, these are specific people and not all flesh. All flesh includes gentiles and this pertains to ths promise of salvation by grace through faith in Christ, the specific persons mentioned are Israel and they are included in all flesh for salvation but separated for the gifts of signs and miracles.

When you blur what is clearly said you cannot see what Peter was declaring before his mainly Jewish audience. The church does not usurp the prophsey given for Israel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger... you do realize that there is very little of the Bible then that applies to anyone that ain't a Jew... using your logic here?

Here is your problem Roger... Cornelius. Same thing that happened to them at Pentecost... that's exactly how Peter described it right? So what were they excited about?

Acts 10:44 *¶While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45 *And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also.
46 *For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47 *"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

Acts 11:15 *"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, just as He did upon us at the beginning.
16 *"And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, `John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.´
17 *"If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
18 *And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."


In regard to salvation and the coming of the Spirit of God upon men... it's all the same Roger. No Jew, no Gentile, no slave, no free no man or woman. All.

notuptome
Nov 16th 2010, 07:35 PM
Roger... you do realize that there is very little of the Bible then that applies to anyone that ain't a Jew... using your logic here?
Only from your somewhat skewed perspective. All of the bible was written to the Jew. The rest of the world is blessed because of what God has written to the Jew. Gen 12:3, Gal 3:8

Here is your problem Roger... Cornelius. Same thing that happened to them at Pentecost... that's exactly how Peter described it right? So what were they excited about?

Acts 10:44 *¶While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45 *And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also.
46 *For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47 *"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

Acts 11:15 *"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, just as He did upon us at the beginning.
16 *"And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, `John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.´
17 *"If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
18 *And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
told and retold in the scriptures you present is the evidence that the Spirit was poured out on all flesh, Jew and gentile, and the sign of tongues given here to the Jews present with Peter and then in Jerusalem that God indeed was saving gentiles the same as He was saving Jews. The sign of tongues was not for the gentiles but that the Jews would accept their conversion with equal authority that it was of God. Thanks for proving my point.

In regard to salvation and the coming of the Spirit of God upon men... it's all the same Roger. No Jew, no Gentile, no slave, no free no man or woman. All.
Yet we wait for the Lord to return for His people Israel. Then we will see the signs in the heavens spoken of by Joel. Christ is returning at the end of the tribulation for Israel not for the church. Prophsey still remains to the Jew even though the Jew is not yet the beneficiary of the blessing intended for him. The church has received the blessing intended for the Jew. Rom 11:24 Paul speaks of the natural olive tree being graft back in and how their blessing will be great as the wild olive tree the gentiles blessing was great.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 16th 2010, 07:59 PM
Only from your somewhat skewed perspective. All of the bible was written to the Jew. The rest of the world is blessed because of what God has written to the Jew. Gen 12:3, Gal 3:8

told and retold in the scriptures you present is the evidence that the Spirit was poured out on all flesh, Jew and gentile, and the sign of tongues given here to the Jews present with Peter and then in Jerusalem that God indeed was saving gentiles the same as He was saving Jews. The sign of tongues was not for the gentiles but that the Jews would accept their conversion with equal authority that it was of God. Thanks for proving my point.

Yet we wait for the Lord to return for His people Israel. Then we will see the signs in the heavens spoken of by Joel. Christ is returning at the end of the tribulation for Israel not for the church. Prophsey still remains to the Jew even though the Jew is not yet the beneficiary of the blessing intended for him. The church has received the blessing intended for the Jew. Rom 11:24 Paul speaks of the natural olive tree being graft back in and how their blessing will be great as the wild olive tree the gentiles blessing was great.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Uh... the Genitle spoke in tongues as well as clearly shown in 1 Corinthians Roger... long after the Jews knew that Gentiles could be saved as well. So your point wasn't proven at all.

notuptome
Nov 16th 2010, 08:36 PM
Uh... the Genitle spoke in tongues as well as clearly shown in 1 Corinthians Roger... long after the Jews knew that Gentiles could be saved as well. So your point wasn't proven at all.
The same Corinthians that Paul told that signs were for the Jews but the gentiles seek wisdom? 1 Cor 1:22

There were Jews in the church at Corinth. Tongues are for unbelievers no doubt many of whom were Jewish. 1 Cor 14:22

The preaching of the cross of Christ is the power of God to save men. 1 Cor 1:18

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 16th 2010, 08:52 PM
The same Corinthians that Paul told that signs were for the Jews but the gentiles seek wisdom? 1 Cor 1:22

There were Jews in the church at Corinth. Tongues are for unbelievers no doubt many of whom were Jewish. 1 Cor 14:22

The preaching of the cross of Christ is the power of God to save men. 1 Cor 1:18

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger... that doesn't cancel out the 12-14 chapter. You are messing up with all this man... it really sounds weird reading you even. You don't think it today then okay... you have your 13th chapter passage to hang on... okay that's something albeit wrong... But to make tongues a "Jewish" thing... that's just poor reading and understanding.

notuptome
Nov 16th 2010, 09:22 PM
Roger... that doesn't cancel out the 12-14 chapter. You are messing up with all this man... it really sounds weird reading you even. You don't think it today then okay... you have your 13th chapter passage to hang on... okay that's something albeit wrong... But to make tongues a "Jewish" thing... that's just poor reading and understanding.
I have not cancelled out anything except the modern charasmatic/pentacostal movement. Scripture makes tongues a Jewish sign. The modern church movements of today have corrupted the original intents and meanings.

Gentiles inclination to seek after wisdom may have made them better suited to teaching or preaching than to speaking tongues. In any case the distribution of individual gifts within the church has been replaced with God gifting men suited to the ministry of the church. Eph 4:11 is the gifting of these men. These are men rightly dividing the word of God as Paul admonished Timothy in 2 Tim 2:15. This is something now possible since the completion of the NT revelation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 16th 2010, 09:27 PM
I have not cancelled out anything except the modern charasmatic/pentacostal movement. Scripture makes tongues a Jewish sign. The modern church movements of today have corrupted the original intents and meanings.

Gentiles inclination to seek after wisdom may have made them better suited to teaching or preaching than to speaking tongues. In any case the distribution of individual gifts within the church has been replaced with God gifting men suited to the ministry of the church. Eph 4:11 is the gifting of these men. These are men rightly dividing the word of God as Paul admonished Timothy in 2 Tim 2:15. This is something now possible since the completion of the NT revelation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger... no where does it say that this is a "Jewish" thing. You are taking that one Scripture about Jews seeking signs and Greeks wisdom and you're trying to make this doctrine? Seriously Roger... that's flawed all over the place.

Paul, in 12-14 never once says it is a for Jews only thing. The Corinth church wasn't made up of Jew only. That would be terribly derelict had he left that out. That isn't rightly dividing Roger... that is wrongly tweaking it to make it work for a specific belief.

notuptome
Nov 16th 2010, 09:50 PM
Roger... no where does it say that this is a "Jewish" thing. You are taking that one Scripture about Jews seeking signs and Greeks wisdom and you're trying to make this doctrine? Seriously Roger... that's flawed all over the place.
I have shown you many places in the scriptures where the sign of tongues was for the Jews. It is quite fallacious to assert that my position has been based on one scripture.

Paul, in 12-14 never once says it is a for Jews only thing. The Corinth church wasn't made up of Jew only. That would be terribly derelict had he left that out. That isn't rightly dividing Roger... that is wrongly tweaking it to make it work for a specific belief.
I never said that the church at Corinth was made up of only Jews. There is nothing in the scriptures to support the contention that the gentiles in the church were speaking in tongues. Unless of course you want to include the fact that the church was in a mess with folks speaking out of order and creating confusion. God is not the author of confusion so who was creating the problem? I wonder which of us is "tweeking" the scriptures to support a position and which is willing to allow the scriptures to teach what God has given?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 16th 2010, 10:20 PM
I have shown you many places in the scriptures where the sign of tongues was for the Jews. It is quite fallacious to assert that my position has been based on one scripture.

I never said that the church at Corinth was made up of only Jews. There is nothing in the scriptures to support the contention that the gentiles in the church were speaking in tongues. Unless of course you want to include the fact that the church was in a mess with folks speaking out of order and creating confusion. God is not the author of confusion so who was creating the problem? I wonder which of us is "tweeking" the scriptures to support a position and which is willing to allow the scriptures to teach what God has given?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The tongues wasn't the error Roger. Everyone doing it at and all was the issue. Paul said that wasn't necessary and caused disorder. And the point Roger... no where in Scripture will you see a passage saying that any of the gifts were ONLY FOR THE JEW. You have passages that you say say that but they don't... and any simplistic elementary reading skills don't allow for that interpretation of what was written.

notuptome
Nov 17th 2010, 02:13 PM
The tongues wasn't the error Roger. Everyone doing it at and all was the issue. Paul said that wasn't necessary and caused disorder.
Then it could not have been the Holy Spirit causing these to speak in tongues. What other spirit could have been making all these speak at the same time and create such disorder in the church? 1 Cor 14:33

And the point Roger... no where in Scripture will you see a passage saying that any of the gifts were ONLY FOR THE JEW. You have passages that you say say that but they don't... and any simplistic elementary reading skills don't allow for that interpretation of what was written.
Well was Joel written to Israel or to the church? Who was it that spoke in tongues at Pentacost? Who was present when Cornelius spoke in tongues? Why does Paul tell us that Jews require a sign? 1 Cor 1:22 The Lord Jesus said that the Jews seek a sign. Mat 16:1-4

You say all we need is simplistic elementary reading skills but it appears that what you mean is biased and selective reading skills. Super natural gifts ceased but natural gifts continue to this day.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 17th 2010, 07:23 PM
Then it could not have been the Holy Spirit causing these to speak in tongues. What other spirit could have been making all these speak at the same time and create such disorder in the church? 1 Cor 14:33Be careful Roger. What caused them to go on in the church like they were was the flesh... much of Paul's gist when writing them eh? Same thing that caused them to hold one apostle over another... caused them to sue each other... etc. Never once did Paul attribute any of these things to another "spirit."


Well was Joel written to Israel or to the church? Who was it that spoke in tongues at Pentacost? Who was present when Cornelius spoke in tongues? Why does Paul tell us that Jews require a sign? 1 Cor 1:22 The Lord Jesus said that the Jews seek a sign. Mat 16:1-4It was written to God's people Roger. It was poured out on ALL men who obeyed God and believed. Most of the Bible was written to Jews and written by Jews. What do you use as the measuring rod on what to accept or toss out since you're a Gentile?



You say all we need is simplistic elementary reading skills but it appears that what you mean is biased and selective reading skills. Super natural gifts ceased but natural gifts continue to this day.Biased and selective? Pray tell who is the one adding "only to the Jews" to those passages, even in Corinthians? Me... or you? So who is being biased and selective Roger... honestly?

divaD
Nov 17th 2010, 07:46 PM
Be careful Roger. What caused them to go on in the church like they were was the flesh... much of Paul's gist when writing them eh? Same thing that caused them to hold one apostle over another... caused them to sue each other... etc. Never once did Paul attribute any of these things to another "spirit."




I agree. One needs to be careful how they handle Scriptures. There's not one record of any spirit counterfitting tongues anywhere in the NT that i'm aware of. Just because all of these spoke out of order, that doesn't even remotely suggest that the tongues were not of the Holy Spirit. I'm pretty certain if other spirits were involved, Paul would have been rebuking spirits instead of people.

But I can see Roger's point, since it states God is not the author of confusion..the Holy spirit being God. But still, there's no reason to think that the tongues came any other way but by the Spirit of God. So obviously, the problem was with the flesh, and not with the Spirit of God.

notuptome
Nov 17th 2010, 08:37 PM
Be careful Roger. What caused them to go on in the church like they were was the flesh... much of Paul's gist when writing them eh? Same thing that caused them to hold one apostle over another... caused them to sue each other... etc. Never once did Paul attribute any of these things to another "spirit."
If they were in the flesh as you suggest then it could not be the Holy Spirit speaking through them. The Holy Spirit does not cause men to act contrary to the will of God. eh

It was written to God's people Roger. It was poured out on ALL men who obeyed God and believed. Most of the Bible was written to Jews and written by Jews. What do you use as the measuring rod on what to accept or toss out since you're a Gentile?
The prophsey was written to Israel. The Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh through the covenant God made with Abraham ie in thee shall all the famlies of the earth be blessed. The church was blessed at pentacost with the out pouring of the Holy Spirit only because Isreal had rejected Christ. The prophsey or promise to Israel remains to be fulfilled at the end of the tribulation when Christ comes the last time. Only when you understand to whom a scripture is written can you correctly understand how it applies to you.

Biased and selective? Pray tell who is the one adding "only to the Jews" to those passages, even in Corinthians? Me... or you? So who is being biased and selective Roger... honestly?
You cannot simply ignore that signs are for Jews and wisdom for gentiles. At pentacost Acts 2:5-12 These who were present were devout men Jews out of every nation under heaven. But I'm just making all this up.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 18th 2010, 11:21 PM
If they were in the flesh as you suggest then it could not be the Holy Spirit speaking through them. The Holy Spirit does not cause men to act contrary to the will of God. eh Uh... no roger. Paul addressed it. That particular gift was in their control. The were in the flesh in that all of them were wanting to go on at one time. In that they were being disorderly. Paul corrected the problem and not by telling them to NOT speak in tongues. But to do so orderly... a couple and only if there is one there to translate the tongue so as to edify the rest of the body. The gathering of believers was for that purpose. If they were speaking in tongues and they were the only one being edified by this... there was no need to get the entire body involved. They could simply do so between themselves and God.

ProjectPeter
Nov 18th 2010, 11:24 PM
The prophsey was written to Israel. The Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh through the covenant God made with Abraham ie in thee shall all the famlies of the earth be blessed. The church was blessed at pentacost with the out pouring of the Holy Spirit only because Isreal had rejected Christ. The prophsey or promise to Israel remains to be fulfilled at the end of the tribulation when Christ comes the last time. Only when you understand to whom a scripture is written can you correctly understand how it applies to you.Wbat Scripture was written to me, a Gentile, Roger?

ProjectPeter
Nov 18th 2010, 11:28 PM
You cannot simply ignore that signs are for Jews and wisdom for gentiles. At pentacost Acts 2:5-12 These who were present were devout men Jews out of every nation under heaven. But I'm just making all this up.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger.. that passage has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit... talking the signs for jews and wisdom for gentile.

According to the passages TALKING ABOUT THE GIFTS Roger... what does it say the gifts are for in regard to the BODY of Christ?

notuptome
Nov 19th 2010, 02:25 PM
Roger.. that passage has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit... talking the signs for jews and wisdom for gentile.

According to the passages TALKING ABOUT THE GIFTS Roger... what does it say the gifts are for in regard to the BODY of Christ?
Now which gifts do you wish to discuss? The sign gifts that were given to the Jews? Or the men anointed of God that were gifted to the church in Eph 4:11. You do see the difference don't you? Would you care to discuss how the church at Corinth had abused the sign gifts which were given to establish apostolic authority? Or the gift of pastors to feed the flock from the word of God that the body might be edified and built up in the most holy faith?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 19th 2010, 02:33 PM
Uh... no roger. Paul addressed it. That particular gift was in their control. The were in the flesh in that all of them were wanting to go on at one time. In that they were being disorderly. Paul corrected the problem and not by telling them to NOT speak in tongues. But to do so orderly... a couple and only if there is one there to translate the tongue so as to edify the rest of the body. The gathering of believers was for that purpose. If they were speaking in tongues and they were the only one being edified by this... there was no need to get the entire body involved. They could simply do so between themselves and God.
In their control? What in scripture leads you to conclude that tongues are under the control of the speaker? Where is this evidenced in scripture?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 19th 2010, 02:35 PM
Wbat Scripture was written to me, a Gentile, Roger?
Frankly none. You are the beneficiary of what God gave to the Jew. No gentile nation is ever referred to as elect. Even salvation is of the Jew first then the gentile.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
Nov 19th 2010, 03:22 PM
At pentacost Acts 2:5-12 These who were present were devout men Jews out of every nation under heaven. But I'm just making all this up.

Acts 11:15-17 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

the rookie
Nov 19th 2010, 03:28 PM
In their control? What in scripture leads you to conclude that tongues are under the control of the speaker? Where is this evidenced in scripture?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The verse right before the one you referenced: 1 Corinthians 14:32.

notuptome
Nov 19th 2010, 05:57 PM
The verse right before the one you referenced: 1 Corinthians 14:32.
So your contention is that only the prophets were speaking in tongues?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 19th 2010, 06:00 PM
Acts 11:15-17 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
Your point? Gentiles speaking in tongues as a sign to the Jews present that the same Holy Spirit that filled them also filled and saved these gentiles. This does not demonstrate that tongues were for anyone other than the Jews.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

the rookie
Nov 19th 2010, 06:05 PM
So your contention is that only the prophets were speaking in tongues?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No. Paul is expressing / sharing a principle related to the operation of the gifts of the spirit - and taking the "highest" expression of it (prophecy) to make a key point. Even the one who prophesies - even the "capital P" prophet - will not be "violated" in their free will related to the operation and ministry of the Holy Spirit. Human participation in the gifts of the spirit is what Paul is speaking of - it happens to be the theme running through the entire chapter - and for that matter, 1 Cor. 12-14 as a whole.

Paul's whole point is that "love" is the governing principle that allows a body to work together in a manner that exalts Christ. 1 Cor. 14 is the practical way that works itself out related to the immediate issues facing the people - being disorderly in the manner in which they operated in those gifts. "God is a God of order" is knit to how God governs - by voluntary love rather than intrusive sovereignty. The two passages flow with the rest of the section in that manner.

notuptome
Nov 19th 2010, 07:10 PM
No. Paul is expressing / sharing a principle related to the operation of the gifts of the spirit - and taking the "highest" expression of it (prophecy) to make a key point. Even the one who prophesies - even the "capital P" prophet - will not be "violated" in their free will related to the operation and ministry of the Holy Spirit. Human participation in the gifts of the spirit is what Paul is speaking of - it happens to be the theme running through the entire chapter - and for that matter, 1 Cor. 12-14 as a whole.

Paul's whole point is that "love" is the governing principle that allows a body to work together in a manner that exalts Christ. 1 Cor. 14 is the practical way that works itself out related to the immediate issues facing the people - being disorderly in the manner in which they operated in those gifts. "God is a God of order" is knit to how God governs - by voluntary love rather than intrusive sovereignty. The two passages flow with the rest of the section in that manner.
Human participation in the gifts? Are you saying that there was a pick and choose time to decide which gifts each would exhibit in the service? Well back to the prophets in 1 Cor 14:32 you say they were subject to themselves. Self control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. If any were not exercising self control they were not abiding in the Holy Spirit. The discord and confusion was not due to the Holy Spirit moving too many prophets at one time. Paul told these same Corinthians in 1 Cor 11:30 that many were weak and sickly and many were dying because they were not examining themselves and were acting with sin in their lives. These are the same Corinthians that were not too upset by one in their midst living in open sin. 1 Cor 5 they were even puffed up about this thing. That sounds like a lot of what passes for church even today. The only love being demonstrated by the Corinthians was eros not agape.

The spirits of the prophets being subject to the prophets is saying that those who preach in the church and preach things that contradict what was said of the OT prophets are creating confusion and that is not of God.

Preaching was on the ascendence and tongues on the decline yet they were not forbidden perhaps even today in extremely rare situations.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

the rookie
Nov 20th 2010, 12:29 AM
Human participation in the gifts? Are you saying that there was a pick and choose time to decide which gifts each would exhibit in the service?

No. The Spirit initiates, humans respond. But the humans can't blame the Spirit for "making" them respond, which seemed to be a Corinthian excuse for disorder in the service.


Well back to the prophets in 1 Cor 14:32 you say they were subject to themselves. Self control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. If any were not exercising self control they were not abiding in the Holy Spirit.

Right, that's what I'm saying.


The discord and confusion was not due to the Holy Spirit moving too many prophets at one time.

That's not what I am saying. You seem to think that the Holy Spirit only moves through pure non-carnal vessels. The Holy Spirit moves through weak, broken human beings that still need leadership, vision, and (in context to 1 Cor. 12-14) love.


Paul told these same Corinthians in 1 Cor 11:30 that many were weak and sickly and many were dying because they were not examining themselves and were acting with sin in their lives. These are the same Corinthians that were not too upset by one in their midst living in open sin. 1 Cor 5 they were even puffed up about this thing. That sounds like a lot of what passes for church even today. The only love being demonstrated by the Corinthians was eros not agape.

Yes, they were carnal and immature. Yet Paul prays in 1 Cor. 1 that they would get more spiritual gifting and inspired utterance, not less - or none.


The spirits of the prophets being subject to the prophets is saying that those who preach in the church and preach things that contradict what was said of the OT prophets are creating confusion and that is not of God.

And you came up with this how......?


Preaching was on the ascendence and tongues on the decline yet they were not forbidden perhaps even today in extremely rare situations.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You know this because your evidence is.......?

Butch5
Nov 20th 2010, 01:19 AM
I don't speak in tongues myself. I doesn't bother me though, if I see someone speaking in tongues. If that draws them closer to God, Amen. However, to say what you didn't believe it could happen today is also like saying that you don't believe in prophesy. I have however taken part in prophesy, so I have first hand experience with that. In the same passage that Paul talks about speaking in tongues, he also advocates prophesying. Why would there be one, and not the other in today's time?

My above post was to clarify that I understood that tongues were for the unbeliever, and that I meant to say where I highlighted in blue, that only believers spoke in tongues. A non-believer or even a Jew would not have spoken in tongues as there is not reference in the Tanach, the Jewish Bible of anyone speaking in tongues except during the tower of Babel.

I believe the supernatural gifts have ceased as Paul said they would, that would include both tongues and prophecy. They were given for the purpose of confirming the word that was brought by the apostles

ProjectPeter
Nov 20th 2010, 01:43 AM
Now which gifts do you wish to discuss? The sign gifts that were given to the Jews? Or the men anointed of God that were gifted to the church in Eph 4:11. You do see the difference don't you? Would you care to discuss how the church at Corinth had abused the sign gifts which were given to establish apostolic authority? Or the gift of pastors to feed the flock from the word of God that the body might be edified and built up in the most holy faith?

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger... Paul didn't say that the gifts were given some to Jews and some to Gentiles did he? Who were they given to? The body of Christ... the church. It's there clearly Roger,... you're adding to Scripture with this Jew/Gentile thing and you;re adding what isn't even implied.

amazzin
Nov 20th 2010, 01:46 AM
I believe the supernatural gifts have ceased as Paul said they would, that would include both tongues and prophecy. They were given for the purpose of confirming the word that was brought by the apostles

Yes Butch, you've said that before. Now let's use some scripture and let's use it in context

ProjectPeter
Nov 20th 2010, 01:48 AM
In their control? What in scripture leads you to conclude that tongues are under the control of the speaker? Where is this evidenced in scripture?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
1 Corinthians 14 Roger. They weren't in control of the gifts but were in control of their mouth which is where the gift manifested through.

You get a prophecy... one at a time. If it was for real then if it takes another hour for you to speak... speak the prophecy. If a tongue... and it's in order and there is an interpreter... speak. Otherwise... keep it between yourself and God. You don't have to do it aloud. The instrument that allows you to speak is fully in your control... your mouth.

ProjectPeter
Nov 20th 2010, 01:49 AM
Frankly none. You are the beneficiary of what God gave to the Jew. No gentile nation is ever referred to as elect. Even salvation is of the Jew first then the gentile.

For the cause of Christ
RogerThen toss that book away... what good is it to you a Gentile?

Amos_with_goats
Nov 20th 2010, 01:54 AM
Then toss that book away... what good is it to you a Gentile?

That is really the long and short of it. If you use the 'it was for the Jews' argument to dismiss any scripture, you pretty much have to apply that to about 80% of it....

... a hermeneutic the deceiver surely approves of. :rolleyes:

Butch5
Nov 20th 2010, 02:13 AM
Yes Butch, you've said that before. Now let's use some scripture and let's use it in context

I have, I've laid out a biblical case before with much Scripture. Maybe you can explain why only certain churches seem to have the gifts of hte Spirit.

the rookie
Nov 20th 2010, 02:24 AM
I have, I've laid out a biblical case before with much Scripture. Maybe you can explain why only certain churches seem to have the gifts of hte Spirit.

"You have not because you ask not." In the kingdom of God, whatever you are content to live without, you will. Whatever you can't live without, you'll have (Matt. 7:7) Whatever a church - and its leadership - values, that's what forms their spiritual culture. Some churches have gone word-heavy and Spirit-light, some Spirit-heavy and word-light; I want to go deep in the word and deep in the things of the Spirit. Point being the "certain churches" that emphasize the Spirit aren't automatically more healthy than churches that de-emphasize things of the Spirit; it's just that we tend to receive what we value and pursue related to the kingdom of God.

"Healthy" = word and Spirit, or Spirit and truth, not either / or - to be clear. Lots of unhealthy Charismatic churches, lots of unhealthy non-Charismatic churches.

ProjectPeter
Nov 20th 2010, 06:26 AM
That is really the long and short of it. If you use the 'it was for the Jews' argument to dismiss any scripture, you pretty much have to apply that to about 80% of it....

... a hermeneutic the deceiver surely approves of. :rolleyes:It is an odd way of thinking and yet they defend the Word as all and all. It's a strange way of using the logic really. Confusing to anyone that hears it too. It's for the Jew but BY GOLLY YOU BETTER FOLLOW IT! The logic is grossly flawed. Either Christ talked to His church and the epistle's were to the church (Jew, Gentile, Male, Female, Slave, Free) or it was only to the Jew and none of it is applicable to any of us today.

notuptome
Nov 20th 2010, 01:51 PM
No. The Spirit initiates, humans respond. But the humans can't blame the Spirit for "making" them respond, which seemed to be a Corinthian excuse for disorder in the service.
I do not agree. Sin in the life of the believer impairs fellowship with the Lord. We can greive the Holy Spirit and we can quench the Holy Spirit if we do not confess our sin to the Lord when the Holy Spirit brings conviction. I cannot see how God would creat confusion among His people in the church. A house divided cannot stand.

Right, that's what I'm saying.
You will need to explain how one can not abide in the Holy Spirit and still speak in tongues.

That's not what I am saying. You seem to think that the Holy Spirit only moves through pure non-carnal vessels. The Holy Spirit moves through weak, broken human beings that still need leadership, vision, and (in context to 1 Cor. 12-14) love.

Paul teaches this very thing to the Corinthians in 2 Cor 6:14-18 A believer who is not in fellowship with the Lord can have no Holy Spirit power in his life.

Yes, they were carnal and immature. Yet Paul prays in 1 Cor. 1 that they would get more spiritual gifting and inspired utterance, not less - or none.
I see where Paul is exhorting and calling to rememberance the preaching of Christ not the administration of gifts. Edification of the body of believers by preaching not gifts. Paul reminding them that signs are for Jews and wisdom for gentiles.

And you came up with this how......?
In the time of Noah every man did that which was right in his own eyes. There is no way God would leave men to do what seems right to them. The word of God that was available in Corinth was the OT. If one preached something that was contrary to the scripture they would be examined on the matter from the scriptures.

You know this because your evidence is.......?
1 Cor 13:8 Supernatural gifts ceasing and preaching of the cross as the means of evangelism. How were you saved through the hearing of the word of God or through the witnessing of supernatural gifts?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 20th 2010, 02:01 PM
Then toss that book away... what good is it to you a Gentile?
I see you invested considerable intellectual effort in your reply. What are we to do? Gentiles are graft in being wild olives and not natural. We are graft into Christ Who was promised to Israel as the Redeemer, the Christ. God is using the gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy. Rom 11:14 It seem quite frivolous to deny our Jewish heritage.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 20th 2010, 02:11 PM
That is really the long and short of it. If you use the 'it was for the Jews' argument to dismiss any scripture, you pretty much have to apply that to about 80% of it....

... a hermeneutic the deceiver surely approves of. :rolleyes:
I suggest that my effort is not to dismiss but to more fully comprehend. I was reading Luke 11:52 "Woe unto you lawyers for ye have taken away the key of knowledge; ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered". Vs 44 is interesting as well "For ye are as graves which appear not and men that walk over them are not aware of them".

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 20th 2010, 02:18 PM
1 Corinthians 14 Roger. They weren't in control of the gifts but were in control of their mouth which is where the gift manifested through.

You get a prophecy... one at a time. If it was for real then if it takes another hour for you to speak... speak the prophecy. If a tongue... and it's in order and there is an interpreter... speak. Otherwise... keep it between yourself and God. You don't have to do it aloud. The instrument that allows you to speak is fully in your control... your mouth.
What did James say about that? James 3:5-8 "the tongue can no man tame".

Out of the mouth come the issues of the heart. Mat 15:18-20

I'm finding it hard to see where the Lord would expect men to control their mouth apart from the operation of the Holy Spirit. Only by grace can a Christian speak for the peacable fruits of righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

the rookie
Nov 20th 2010, 03:53 PM
I do not agree. Sin in the life of the believer impairs fellowship with the Lord. We can greive the Holy Spirit and we can quench the Holy Spirit if we do not confess our sin to the Lord when the Holy Spirit brings conviction. I cannot see how God would creat confusion among His people in the church. A house divided cannot stand.

I find it interesting that you're able to develop a theology of how the Spirit works through men when you don't believe that the Holy Spirit works today through men. Which means you have no idea how the Holy Spirit works through men. You've simply asserted your human reasoning to scriptures that aren't even pertinent to the subject. So forgive me if I'm not really concerned about your disagreement.


You will need to explain how one can not abide in the Holy Spirit and still speak in tongues.

I don't give and take away gifts to my son based on his performance. Once I give him a gift, he needs to work with me to learn how to use it wisely. But he's 7, so I cut him some slack when he's immature.


Paul teaches this very thing to the Corinthians in 2 Cor 6:14-18 A believer who is not in fellowship with the Lord can have no Holy Spirit power in his life.

You've grossly misunderstood this passage, which isn't speaking about that at all.


I see where Paul is exhorting and calling to rememberance the preaching of Christ not the administration of gifts. Edification of the body of believers by preaching not gifts. Paul reminding them that signs are for Jews and wisdom for gentiles.

Since Ken has ably pointed out your eisegetical insertion of ideas the text does not say, I'll leave this to the two of you to work out.


In the time of Noah every man did that which was right in his own eyes. There is no way God would leave men to do what seems right to them. The word of God that was available in Corinth was the OT. If one preached something that was contrary to the scripture they would be examined on the matter from the scriptures.

This is idealism and opinion, not scriptural exegesis. You're telling me how you think things should work, which makes sense since you don't know how things actually work. How could someone with no experience in chemical engineering talk through chemical dynamics with a chemist? Which is why you consistently impose your opinion upon passages verses actually using inductive methodology.


1 Cor 13:8 Supernatural gifts ceasing and preaching of the cross as the means of evangelism. How were you saved through the hearing of the word of God or through the witnessing of supernatural gifts?

Um, okay. It's tough dialoguing with you when you can make scripture mean anything you want it to mean.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

I do believe that you are sincerely about the cause of Christ. It's just that the cause of Christ is profoundly Spirit-driven.

ProjectPeter
Nov 20th 2010, 04:09 PM
I see you invested considerable intellectual effort in your reply. What are we to do? Gentiles are graft in being wild olives and not natural. We are graft into Christ Who was promised to Israel as the Redeemer, the Christ. God is using the gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy. Rom 11:14 It seem quite frivolous to deny our Jewish heritage.

For the cause of Christ
RogerActually Roger... I was just going on and taking what you said to its logical conclusion.

ProjectPeter
Nov 20th 2010, 04:13 PM
What did James say about that? James 3:5-8 "the tongue can no man tame".

Out of the mouth come the issues of the heart. Mat 15:18-20

I'm finding it hard to see where the Lord would expect men to control their mouth apart from the operation of the Holy Spirit. Only by grace can a Christian speak for the peacable fruits of righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger... do you really think that an applicable passage when speaking of gifts of the Spirit? Do you think that the Jews really even spoke in tongues at Pentecost and if so.... the Spirit was able to do just that even with the James passage eh? If so... then how do you really think this passage applies to what we are speaking of?

Slug1
Nov 20th 2010, 04:13 PM
What did James say about that? James 3:5-8 "the tongue can no man tame".

Out of the mouth come the issues of the heart. Mat 15:18-20

I'm finding it hard to see where the Lord would expect men to control their mouth apart from the operation of the Holy Spirit. Only by grace can a Christian speak for the peacable fruits of righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, the only reason you find it hard to see is because you don't believe. Most of the people we read about in the Bible had faults... Moses complained to God how many times when he was given his purpose? David was a man of God's own heart yet look what he did despite God using him in such mighty ways KNOWING that he'd sin. I can go on for pages of posts about this with all the ate up mighty men and women of God throughout the Bible.

We all have our faults Roger, yet God still uses each and every one of us for His purpose and many times that purpose requires enablement and empowerment beyond what is humanly possible.

So sure, many are given a gift of tongues or prophecy, or healing, or any of those nine that are listed for the Body of Christ, not the Jews and they allow flesh to hinder them and the form of hindering they experience is to abuse the gift. Thus, is the reason God sent Paul to the Corinthians to correct their abuse and mistakes. Sames for all those today making the same mistakes.

I'll say it again Roger... if the gifts of the Holy Spirit weren't active in the Body of Christ today, we'd not even be discussing this topic. Ya really got to think about it Roger. Believe me, if I'm reading a thread about tongues and the person is preaching abuse of this gift, I'm as heavy in those threads speaking and posted from scripture as heavily as I am in these thread where people "deny" the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Those are the two extremes, abuse on one end and denial on the other. In the middle is where God is and all those who allow Him to use them in ways that require the proper use of those 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit.

You are at the one end of denial, others are at the other end of abuse and many are in the middle moving in the power of the Holy Spirit as God wills and they are obedient.

ProjectPeter pointed out that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the Body of Christ, not the Jews... he's read the scriptures, I've read the scriptures, many have read the scriptures and you are presenty the only one who has not read that scripture... or you have and you just deny it as you deniy the gifts in general.

I use a NKJV as my primary Bible and even the section headings in 1 Cor 12, read as this:

Spiritual Gifts: Unity in Diversity
Unity and Diversity in One Body

So, once again I'll post the scriptures that clearly explain to us that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the Body of Christ and not ONLY for the Jews:

We all have the same Holy Spirit in us, correct? So here we begin this listing of scripture:

v4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

All Christians serve the same Lord, correct?

v5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

But each Christian is given a different ministry, correct? I mean, some are the same and we work together and a few who are gifted in whatever may come together and work a mighty ministry together because of their common gifting... anyway:

v6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

So why does God gift us all in our own individual ways and with the various gifts of the Holy Spirit as members in the Body of Christ?? Well, it's because God has work that He needs to do in the Body of Christ and He does this through people so GLORY is produced to Him and we all as a Body of Christ profit from our obedience to God, correct?

v7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

So, the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit are distributed throughout the entire Body of Christ as we read in v8-10 but a key point is given to us all (Body of Christ) in v11. Which is the fact that these gifts are distributed, that they are worked by the Ministry of the Holy Spirit over the entire Body of Christ and that EACH individual in the Body of Christ can have a gift. Why not all have a gift... well Roger, her you are denying the gifts of the Holy Spirit and do you think that you are the only one? That is why there are whole denominations and whole churches full of Christians that for generations, they have NEVER experienced any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation. Then they justify this lack of power in Christ through their doctrine and rituals. Anyway, let's continue with the scriptures:

v11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Now, we realy begin to get into the scripture that is so black and white, it's very clear that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the entire Body of Christ. By this one single scripture I'm about to post... this one scripture supports this fact so strongly, there is not reason to continue... but I will, correct? ;)

v12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

So... we continue as God continues to drive this home as His TRUTH, that we are all one Body of Christ and since the topic is all about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, this in context means that all the gifts are FOR the Body of Christ, not just the Jews, correct?

v13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit.

This point is made even stronger still in this next scripture, correct?

v14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

Now, the next three scriptures I'm posting together because I don't need to break each down for the meaning to be made clear. It's clear through all three verses that in you saying that the gifts are only or the Jews, you have segregated either a foot, or hand, or ear, or an eye from the rest of the Body of Christ. What you say is counter to this scripture. Again, this scripture clearly shows us that we are all part of ONE Body of Christ. Not two as you say ONLY in threads dealing with the gifts of the Holy Spirit but say that Jews and Gentiles are the same in many other topics that you participate in.

v15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?

We are all members of ONE Body of Christ... both Jew and Gentile and this pleases God, or is as God pleases... correct?

v18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.

God has Paul drive this point home again, so many time in 1 Cor 12, this point is driven home for us... must be very important, correct?

v20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.

Now... HERE IS WHERE the doctrine that you hold to begins to enter the picture and what does this cause you to do Roger? I'll tell you, you are telling a part of the Body of Christ that they are NOT NEEDED. What body part are you in the Body of Christ Roger, while what part of the Body of Christ am I? You say, NONE speak in tongues, God says that many parts do... so in effect, you are doing that this v21 is all about... you are telling a hand, or foot, or whatever... I have no need of you.

v21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”

So v22-26 goes into an explanation of this problem. So what is the schism that God is talking about? Well, for one it's parts of the Body of Christ saying to other parts of the Body, NO that don't happen and I don't believe you and in the worse case scenarios... call a member of the Body of Christ who is used by God and empowers them with a gift of the Holy Spirit... of satan. Anyway, not all in any particular church seem to manifest any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit... I can take my church and use it as an example.... of the 140 or so members, about 10 speak in tongues, 2 are healers (have prayed for both healing and miraculous healing), 3 are prophets, 3 that I know of have the gift of knowledge and/or wisdom, 5 at least with the gift of discernment of spirits, 2 that I know of who have manifested the gift of interpretation of tongues (one was a child), now faith as a gift, I'd say 2 considering how their faith strengthens the faith of others. Did I miss any? This is just in the church that God has me serving Him and I have met many others with the various gifts of the Holy Spirit all in the Body of Christ as a "whole"

So as a "body" of 140 or so members we all rejoice as a Body in whole as God moves in power upon our church. Not all manifest the various gifts of the Holy Spirit but as a church we all benefit and as a whole church, glorify God as any work that He does... is done through our church.

v22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Once again, this very important point is driven home once again because it's so very important, correct?

v27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.

Then the remaining verses are to show us and point out the importance of the gifts. Do I need to post the scripture?

So... you can deny other parts of the Body of Christ as you do Roger. All I can do is point this out as the problem that it is and post all the scripture that supports how what you do is a problem... will this scripture change your heart? I don't know... I was as you are not a few years ago, saying allot of the same stuff you do... ProjectPeter closed many of the threads I was involved with as I argued my denial of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Long story short and you've read it I'm sure... a member (not PP) finally pointed out such scripture as all this (and many others) has been pointed out and encouraged me to seek God's heart and His understanding. Clearly, you can see that God has opened my heart to Him and HIS WILL upon me as a MEMBER of the Body of Christ.

divaD
Nov 20th 2010, 05:54 PM
ProjectPeter pointed out that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the Body of Christ, not the Jews... he's read the scriptures, I've read the scriptures, many have read the scriptures and you are presenty the only one who has not read that scripture... or you have and you just deny it as you deniy the gifts in general.

I would think Ephesians proves this point perfectly. I'm pretty sure the Ephesians were Gentiles.

Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father

Where else have we heard something similar?

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit

If one continues reading in 1 Corinthians 12, where does it lead? To the gifts of the Spirit. This is definately not a Jewish only thing, because we are told this here.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I don't know how it could be any clearer. If we're baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ, regardless of ethinicity, then the gifts are for all, and not just for the Jews. Are all of these gifts still in operation today? To be honest, I'm uncertain. At times I think perhaps so, and at other times, I'm thinking no way. I'm basing that on how I'm seeing some of these gifts allegedly used. So I'm confused about the present, while at the same time, I feel I have a reasonable understanding of the past, as in what was recorded about them in Scriptures.

notuptome
Nov 20th 2010, 07:48 PM
I find it interesting that you're able to develop a theology of how the Spirit works through men when you don't believe that the Holy Spirit works today through men. Which means you have no idea how the Holy Spirit works through men. You've simply asserted your human reasoning to scriptures that aren't even pertinent to the subject. So forgive me if I'm not really concerned about your disagreement.
You really don't know what I know of the Holy Spirit. Your attitude is quite dismissive. I am only concerned with being in alignment with Gods word. You have made no effort to demonstrate where I am not.

I don't give and take away gifts to my son based on his performance. Once I give him a gift, he needs to work with me to learn how to use it wisely. But he's 7, so I cut him some slack when he's immature.
And when his twenty seven and still playing with a rattle?

You've grossly misunderstood this passage, which isn't speaking about that at all.
And I should believe that because you said it is so.

Since Ken has ably pointed out your eisegetical insertion of ideas the text does not say, I'll leave this to the two of you to work out.
If you had an answer I suspect you would provide it.

This is idealism and opinion, not scriptural exegesis. You're telling me how you think things should work, which makes sense since you don't know how things actually work. How could someone with no experience in chemical engineering talk through chemical dynamics with a chemist? Which is why you consistently impose your opinion upon passages verses actually using inductive methodology.
I must not be understanding you correctly because you sound really arrogant almost as if your position is above reproach even from the scriptures.

Um, okay. It's tough dialoguing with you when you can make scripture mean anything you want it to mean.
Well if the dialog is all you can't be right because it doesn't fit what I want to believe I can see your point. Show me from the scriptures where I'm wrong.

I do believe that you are sincerely about the cause of Christ. It's just that the cause of Christ is profoundly Spirit-driven.
Cute but not all the spirits are of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 20th 2010, 07:50 PM
Actually Roger... I was just going on and taking what you said to its logical conclusion.
Well that must make it all good 'cause it might have seemed like you were just being dismissive.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 20th 2010, 08:08 PM
To you perhaps. As I said though... that's the only logical conclusion one can take when reading all you say and your favorite quote... "it's to the Jew and not the Gentile."

Butch5
Nov 21st 2010, 03:35 AM
"You have not because you ask not." In the kingdom of God, whatever you are content to live without, you will. Whatever you can't live without, you'll have (Matt. 7:7) Whatever a church - and its leadership - values, that's what forms their spiritual culture. Some churches have gone word-heavy and Spirit-light, some Spirit-heavy and word-light; I want to go deep in the word and deep in the things of the Spirit. Point being the "certain churches" that emphasize the Spirit aren't automatically more healthy than churches that de-emphasize things of the Spirit; it's just that we tend to receive what we value and pursue related to the kingdom of God.

"Healthy" = word and Spirit, or Spirit and truth, not either / or - to be clear. Lots of unhealthy Charismatic churches, lots of unhealthy non-Charismatic churches.

But that doesn't answer the question, why do only some churches claim to have the supernatural Spritual gifts if they are for "All" believers?

Slug1
Nov 21st 2010, 04:09 AM
But that doesn't answer the question, why do only some churches claim to have the supernatural Spritual gifts if they are for "All" believers?I honestly feel it's a matter of following the rituals and doctrine of the church, some saying the gifts have ended, and thus God isn't allowed to move in these churches, thus they are unbelievers concerning the Spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit. Others allow the Holy Spirit to move freely, thus these churches experience the Spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit as they are believers.

I'll give you an example of how doctrine and rituals have become more important than allowing the Holy Spirit to freely move in power... let's see if this works again... so far it has every time.

Roger... if a person or person's (1-3) begin to speak in tongues in your church as God brings a message of edification to your church and another is the interpreter so all in the church can be edified by God... what would you or your church do when the very first person begins to speak in tongues as God begins to bring the message through those He chose?

Let's wait and see what he says... standing by in the mean time.

the rookie
Nov 21st 2010, 05:04 AM
But that doesn't answer the question, why do only some churches claim to have the supernatural Spritual gifts if they are for "All" believers?

They are for all believers and available to all believers. But not all believers want them, ask for them and/or believe that we should have them.

Amos_with_goats
Nov 21st 2010, 05:52 AM
They are for all believers and available to all believers. But not all believers want them, ask for them and/or believe that we should have them.

Amen,

And I believe it is VERY important we look at this, and seek what WE should do. The instruction is clear;

1 Thessalonians 5:19 (New King James Version)

Do not quench the Spirit.

Let all of us seek to obey the Word!

Slug1
Nov 21st 2010, 12:29 PM
Amen,

And I believe it is VERY important we look at this, and seek what WE should do. The instruction is clear;

1 Thessalonians 5:19 (New King James Version)

Do not quench the Spirit.

Let all of us seek to obey the Word! Amen Amos! I've had that scripture in my signature for a long time because it is SO overlooked and ignored by so many Christians today!

ProjectPeter
Nov 21st 2010, 09:23 PM
But that doesn't answer the question, why do only some churches claim to have the supernatural Spritual gifts if they are for "All" believers?

Simple answer really. Only some belie those gifts are even available... if you don't believe it then rest assured you ain't going to operate in it. ;)

notuptome
Nov 22nd 2010, 01:52 PM
To you perhaps. As I said though... that's the only logical conclusion one can take when reading all you say and your favorite quote... "it's to the Jew and not the Gentile."
Hardly but I have a question for you. Why do you have such a strong aversion to the Jewish heritage of our scriptures? To deny the Jewish nature of the scriptures is quite puzzling. 2 Thes 2:14-17 What Jewish traditions did the apostles teach in the Christian church?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 22nd 2010, 01:55 PM
Amen,

And I believe it is VERY important we look at this, and seek what WE should do. The instruction is clear;

1 Thessalonians 5:19 (New King James Version)

Do not quench the Spirit.

Let all of us seek to obey the Word!
How do you suppose one quenches the Holy Spirit?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 22nd 2010, 02:37 PM
How do you suppose one quenches the Holy Spirit?

For the cause of Christ
RogerOne way is by the way you always avoid answering this question of mine. To date, of the oh... 8 times I've asked you... you beat around answering it :P


I honestly feel it's a matter of following the rituals and doctrine of the church, some saying the gifts have ended, and thus God isn't allowed to move in these churches, thus they are unbelievers concerning the Spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit. Others allow the Holy Spirit to move freely, thus these churches experience the Spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit as they are believers.

I'll give you an example of how doctrine and rituals have become more important than allowing the Holy Spirit to freely move in power... let's see if this works again... so far it has every time.

Roger... if a person or person's (1-3) begin to speak in tongues in your church as God brings a message of edification to your church and another is the interpreter so all in the church can be edified by God... what would you or your church do when the very first person begins to speak in tongues as God begins to bring the message through those He chose?

Let's wait and see what he says... standing by in the mean time.

notuptome
Nov 22nd 2010, 03:18 PM
Roger, the only reason you find it hard to see is because you don't believe. Most of the people we read about in the Bible had faults... Moses complained to God how many times when he was given his purpose? David was a man of God's own heart yet look what he did despite God using him in such mighty ways KNOWING that he'd sin. I can go on for pages of posts about this with all the ate up mighty men and women of God throughout the Bible.

We all have our faults Roger, yet God still uses each and every one of us for His purpose and many times that purpose requires enablement and empowerment beyond what is humanly possible.
I did nto forget about you I just wanted to take some time before I responded. Here is a question for you. Did the Holy Spirit operate differently in the OT Saints than He does in the NT saints?

So sure, many are given a gift of tongues or prophecy, or healing, or any of those nine that are listed for the Body of Christ, not the Jews and they allow flesh to hinder them and the form of hindering they experience is to abuse the gift. Thus, is the reason God sent Paul to the Corinthians to correct their abuse and mistakes. Sames for all those today making the same mistakes.
Gods word clearly stated the it was the Holy Spirit acting in the will of God to distribute the gifts to whom God willed. Now if Gods word clearly states that signs are for Jews and wisdom for gentiles why should we expect God to act differently? Is the gift of healing the gift of a healer or the healing itself?

I'll say it again Roger... if the gifts of the Holy Spirit weren't active in the Body of Christ today, we'd not even be discussing this topic. Ya really got to think about it Roger. Believe me, if I'm reading a thread about tongues and the person is preaching abuse of this gift, I'm as heavy in those threads speaking and posted from scripture as heavily as I am in these thread where people "deny" the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Those are the two extremes, abuse on one end and denial on the other. In the middle is where God is and all those who allow Him to use them in ways that require the proper use of those 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Well really this is not an issue in the body of Christ as a whole. I do not deny Spiritual gifts only that much of what is claimed to be supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit are not.

You are at the one end of denial, others are at the other end of abuse and many are in the middle moving in the power of the Holy Spirit as God wills and they are obedient.
I know that is what you want to believe but the word of God does not support your contention. Feeling are not reliable.

ProjectPeter pointed out that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the Body of Christ, not the Jews... he's read the scriptures, I've read the scriptures, many have read the scriptures and you are presenty the only one who has not read that scripture... or you have and you just deny it as you deniy the gifts in general.
The problem here is that you read only superfacially. Within the body the gifts were not given without divine purpose. Scripture clearly demonstrates that tongues were for the benefit of the Jews even when gentiles spoke in tongues it was a sign for the Jews.


I use a NKJV as my primary Bible and even the section headings in 1 Cor 12, read as this:

Spiritual Gifts: Unity in Diversity
Unity and Diversity in One Body

So, once again I'll post the scriptures that clearly explain to us that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the Body of Christ and not ONLY for the Jews:
Well you do know that the publishers notes even the verse numbers and chapter divisions are not part of the original manuscripts so while they are helpful they are not inspired?


We all have the same Holy Spirit in us, correct? So here we begin this listing of scripture:

v4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

This is what Peter said in Acts 2 in accord with Joel 2.

All Christians serve the same Lord, correct?

v5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

That certainly is biblically correct whether it holds up in practice could be debated.

But each Christian is given a different ministry, correct? I mean, some are the same and we work together and a few who are gifted in whatever may come together and work a mighty ministry together because of their common gifting... anyway:

v6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
God uses us as He sees fit as each is given ability but all do not have the same ability.
[quote]So why does God gift us all in our own individual ways and with the various gifts of the Holy Spirit as members in the Body of Christ?? Well, it's because God has work that He needs to do in the Body of Christ and He does this through people so GLORY is produced to Him and we all as a Body of Christ profit from our obedience to God, correct?

v7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

I say God allows us to be His servants but He can do His will without our cooperation.

So, the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit are distributed throughout the entire Body of Christ as we read in v8-10 but a key point is given to us all (Body of Christ) in v11. Which is the fact that these gifts are distributed, that they are worked by the Ministry of the Holy Spirit over the entire Body of Christ and that EACH individual in the Body of Christ can have a gift. Why not all have a gift... well Roger, her you are denying the gifts of the Holy Spirit and do you think that you are the only one? That is why there are whole denominations and whole churches full of Christians that for generations, they have NEVER experienced any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation. Then they justify this lack of power in Christ through their doctrine and rituals. Anyway, let's continue with the scriptures:

v11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Now you are simply making accusations into the air. You create a straw man of denominations or churchs that you have judged to not be operating in the power of God. You set yourself apart and elevate yourself above your brethren. It is true that God distributes ability and gifts as He see fit but you nor I know why God uses whom He uses and why He does not use another.

Now, we realy begin to get into the scripture that is so black and white, it's very clear that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the entire Body of Christ. By this one single scripture I'm about to post... this one scripture supports this fact so strongly, there is not reason to continue... but I will, correct? ;)

v12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

All Christians are one in the body but the ethnic nature of each is not erased. You cannot conclude that a Christian in Russia is the same as a Christian in Egypt. They are both Christians but they will always be flavored by their national heritage.

So... we continue as God continues to drive this home as His TRUTH, that we are all one Body of Christ and since the topic is all about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, this in context means that all the gifts are FOR the Body of Christ, not just the Jews, correct?

v13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit.

Universal application of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of all men is not indicative that the Holy Spirit is gifting all men the same.

This point is made even stronger still in this next scripture, correct?

v14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

Not really. We are all the same in salvation but not in administation. Not all preach and not all see to the poor.

Now, the next three scriptures I'm posting together because I don't need to break each down for the meaning to be made clear. It's clear through all three verses that in you saying that the gifts are only or the Jews, you have segregated either a foot, or hand, or ear, or an eye from the rest of the Body of Christ. What you say is counter to this scripture. Again, this scripture clearly shows us that we are all part of ONE Body of Christ. Not two as you say ONLY in threads dealing with the gifts of the Holy Spirit but say that Jews and Gentiles are the same in many other topics that you participate in.

v15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?

Some in the body are gifted with musical ability, I am not. Some are gifted with the ability to preach, I am not. Some are gifted with the ability to supply other hands to labor. All work together in the body and the Lord is glorified.

We are all members of ONE Body of Christ... both Jew and Gentile and this pleases God, or is as God pleases... correct?

v18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.

God is pleased in our diversity and God expects me to rejoice in what He has called my brother in Christ to do as He expects my brother in Christ to rejoice in what God has called me to do. We need not do the same thing.

God has Paul drive this point home again, so many time in 1 Cor 12, this point is driven home for us... must be very important, correct?

v20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.

Paul may have known that the Corinthians were very self centered and he must make a point of these things.

Now... HERE IS WHERE the doctrine that you hold to begins to enter the picture and what does this cause you to do Roger? I'll tell you, you are telling a part of the Body of Christ that they are NOT NEEDED.
According to you as my judge.

What body part are you in the Body of Christ Roger, while what part of the Body of Christ am I? You say, NONE speak in tongues, God says that many parts do... so in effect, you are doing that this v21 is all about... you are telling a hand, or foot, or whatever... I have no need of you.
This what you accuse me of doing but it is not what I am doing. I have only pointed out through the scriptures that there are major inconsistancies in what the charasmatic/pentacostal church teaches and what I have seen in scripture. No one has been able to demonstrate where I have misread the scriptures.


v21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”

So v22-26 goes into an explanation of this problem. So what is the schism that God is talking about? Well, for one it's parts of the Body of Christ saying to other parts of the Body, NO that don't happen and I don't believe you and in the worse case scenarios... call a member of the Body of Christ who is used by God and empowers them with a gift of the Holy Spirit... of satan. Anyway, not all in any particular church seem to manifest any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit... I can take my church and use it as an example.... of the 140 or so members, about 10 speak in tongues, 2 are healers (have prayed for both healing and miraculous healing), 3 are prophets, 3 that I know of have the gift of knowledge and/or wisdom, 5 at least with the gift of discernment of spirits, 2 that I know of who have manifested the gift of interpretation of tongues (one was a child), now faith as a gift, I'd say 2 considering how their faith strengthens the faith of others. Did I miss any? This is just in the church that God has me serving Him and I have met many others with the various gifts of the Holy Spirit all in the Body of Christ as a "whole"

So as a "body" of 140 or so members we all rejoice as a Body in whole as God moves in power upon our church. Not all manifest the various gifts of the Holy Spirit but as a church we all benefit and as a whole church, glorify God as any work that He does... is done through our church.

v22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Once again, this very important point is driven home once again because it's so very important, correct?

v27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.

Then the remaining verses are to show us and point out the importance of the gifts. Do I need to post the scripture?

I wil not impune your belief in these folks that are in your church.

So... you can deny other parts of the Body of Christ as you do Roger. All I can do is point this out as the problem that it is and post all the scripture that supports how what you do is a problem... will this scripture change your heart? I don't know... I was as you are not a few years ago, saying allot of the same stuff you do... ProjectPeter closed many of the threads I was involved with as I argued my denial of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Long story short and you've read it I'm sure... a member (not PP) finally pointed out such scripture as all this (and many others) has been pointed out and encouraged me to seek God's heart and His understanding. Clearly, you can see that God has opened my heart to Him and HIS WILL upon me as a MEMBER of the Body of Christ.
If you were where I am you would still be there. Here is the matter in a nutshell. If as scripture states that tongues were for the Jews being a sign gift it stands to reason that they would be fairly widespread in the early church. Most of the early church the first Christians, were Jewish. The demographic of the modern church is much different. Hardly any Jewish families in the average modern Christian church. For this reason alone tongues would seem to cease. This would seem to be what Paul was stating in Eph 4 when he spoke of God gifting specific men within the body to preach and teach the word of God for the perfecting and edifying of the church. Some are sent as missionaries, some are called as evangelists and some as local church pastors to feed the sheep. The church today is the same church but it is not identical to the early church. The church has grown and matured. The church is still growing and maturing in the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 22nd 2010, 03:23 PM
One way is by the way you always avoid answering this question of mine. To date, of the oh... 8 times I've asked you... you beat around answering it :P
The answer is sin and unconfessed sin. The Holy Spirit is greived before He is quenched. The Holy Spirit never leaves nor forsakes those who are in Christ but He cannot prevent believers from resisting the will of God and meriting Gods chastisement for their sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 22nd 2010, 03:58 PM
The answer is sin and unconfessed sin. The Holy Spirit is greived before He is quenched. The Holy Spirit never leaves nor forsakes those who are in Christ but He cannot prevent believers from resisting the will of God and meriting Gods chastisement for their sin.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger, can you please answer the question I have asked you so many times?

edit... I see you posted in reply to my other post... I'll see if you answered this question in that reply.

ProjectPeter
Nov 22nd 2010, 04:23 PM
Hardly but I have a question for you. Why do you have such a strong aversion to the Jewish heritage of our scriptures? To deny the Jewish nature of the scriptures is quite puzzling. 2 Thes 2:14-17 What Jewish traditions did the apostles teach in the Christian church?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Because I say that Scripture is not only to the Jew means I have a strong aversion to the Jewish heritage of Scripture? Or is it more a Roger problem in understanding that there is no Jew or Gentile when Paul penned the letter to the Corinthian church. He actually went to great pains throughout that very letter to make that point very clear. You;re making it a Jew thing when Paul said it ain't about your nationality, your sex, or your social class. Surely you see all that in the writing?

notuptome
Nov 22nd 2010, 06:40 PM
Because I say that Scripture is not only to the Jew means I have a strong aversion to the Jewish heritage of Scripture?
Seems pretty evident to me that you are uncomfortable with the concept that Christianity came through Judiasm. Jesus came to the Jews not to the gentiles. John 1:11-13 Also consider the parable of the great supper Luke 14:15-24 The bidden guests declined the offer so those who were not on the list were brought in to receive the benefits of the great feast.

Or is it more a Roger problem in understanding that there is no Jew or Gentile when Paul penned the letter to the Corinthian church. He actually went to great pains throughout that very letter to make that point very clear.
Pointing out the the Jews that the gentiles were saved by the same Holy Spirit that saved them. Peter and Joel both speak of the Spirit poured out on all flesh this is in clear reference to salvation. Rom 11:32 Paul again states that God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. The dispersion of Holy Spirit gifts is not universal since scripture states that sign gifts are for Jews and wisdom gifts are for gentiles. God according to His divine purpose elected Israel from among all the nations on the earth to be the nation through which God would bring His salvation to all the world.

You;re making it a Jew thing when Paul said it ain't about your nationality, your sex, or your social class. Surely you see all that in the writing?
Only as far as the matter of salvation is concerned. There was in the early church with whom Paul was dealing a good deal of contention between the Jewish and gentile believers. This why Paul was reminding the Corinthians that it was the same God and Holy Spirit that was saving both. In any case Paul did not negate what he wrote in 1 Cor 1:22 & 24

Isn't it interesting to note that in the early church many if not most of the Christians were Jewish while today there is almost no Jewish Christians in the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 22nd 2010, 07:12 PM
Seems pretty evident to me that you are uncomfortable with the concept that Christianity came through Judiasm. Jesus came to the Jews not to the gentiles. John 1:11-13 Also consider the parable of the great supper Luke 14:15-24 The bidden guests declined the offer so those who were not on the list were brought in to receive the benefits of the great feast.Uh... because I said there was no difference in regard to the operation of the Spirit between Jew, Gentile, man, woman, slave or free? Um... Paul actually made that point Roger... I just reminded you of it. What you are doing... is trying to paint me as anti-semetic for some silly reason and I suspect it is to avoid the actual Scripture and paint me in a negatice light in hope that folks ignore what I am saying because I'm the "bad guy." It's a grossly dishonest tactic but don't let that stop you I suppose. :rolleyes:


Pointing out the the Jews that the gentiles were saved by the same Holy Spirit that saved them. Peter and Joel both speak of the Spirit poured out on all flesh this is in clear reference to salvation. Rom 11:32 Paul again states that God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. The dispersion of Holy Spirit gifts is not universal since scripture states that sign gifts are for Jews and wisdom gifts are for gentiles. God according to His divine purpose elected Israel from among all the nations on the earth to be the nation through which God would bring His salvation to all the world. It wasn't in reference to salvation Roger. He said it because they were marveling at what was going on at the time. What was going on at the time... they were speaking in tongues and all the different languages present understood what they were saying. That is why Peter referenced the prophecy... He hadn't gotten to the salvation message yet to reference.


Only as far as the matter of salvation is concerned. There was in the early church with whom Paul was dealing a good deal of contention between the Jewish and gentile believers. This why Paul was reminding the Corinthians that it was the same God and Holy Spirit that was saving both. In any case Paul did not negate what he wrote in 1 Cor 1:22 & 24Paul wasn't speaking of salvation either. He was speaking to those already saved who were operating in the gifts of the Spirit. Again Roger... you are trying to make it into something totally voiding the context.



Isn't it interesting to note that in the early church many if not most of the Christians were Jewish while today there is almost no Jewish Christians in the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Um... you have no way at all of knowing the make-up of the Corinth church Roger. Also you are again avoiding the context of much of Paul's letter, just as Paul did with the Romans, making it clear that it didn't matter a whit if you were Jew (circumcised) or Gentile (uncircumcised), man... woman... slave.... free.

As to Christian's in the church today... hate to break it to you... but there are MANY TIMES more Gentiles in the US and world as there are Jews in the US and World. It stands to reason that there are MANY TIMES more Gentiles in the church today than Jews for that very reason. One needs but a very basic understanding of math to be able to reason that out in their noggins. ;)

notuptome
Nov 22nd 2010, 09:38 PM
Uh... because I said there was no difference in regard to the operation of the Spirit between Jew, Gentile, man, woman, slave or free? Um... Paul actually made that point Roger... I just reminded you of it. What you are doing... is trying to paint me as anti-semetic for some silly reason and I suspect it is to avoid the actual Scripture and paint me in a negatice light in hope that folks ignore what I am saying because I'm the "bad guy." It's a grossly dishonest tactic but don't let that stop you I suppose. :rolleyes:
Actually I have only been pointing out that you are out of context when you contend that tongues and signs are for gentiles. You claim that there is no difference yet scripture teaches differently. There is no difference only in the matter of salvation and that point is made in a number of places. When tongues are present in the scriptures they are to the Jewish folks that are present.

It wasn't in reference to salvation Roger. He said it because they were marveling at what was going on at the time. What was going on at the time... they were speaking in tongues and all the different languages present understood what they were saying. That is why Peter referenced the prophecy... He hadn't gotten to the salvation message yet to reference.
Joel whom Peter refrences is the one who defines that the Spirit of God is poured out on all flesh yet it is your sons and your daughters not all sons and all daughters. The change of pronoun here is important to correctly understanding what is being said. Joel 2:28 God is speaking to the nation of Israel when He says your sons and your daughters. That is the context.

Paul wasn't speaking of salvation either. He was speaking to those already saved who were operating in the gifts of the Spirit. Again Roger... you are trying to make it into something totally voiding the context.
I don't think you have really endeavored to make that point from scripture. You continue to alledge it from your opinion but I don't see any scripture supporting your position. If you got it bring it.

Um... you have no way at all of knowing the make-up of the Corinth church Roger. Also you are again avoiding the context of much of Paul's letter, just as Paul did with the Romans, making it clear that it didn't matter a whit if you were Jew (circumcised) or Gentile (uncircumcised), man... woman... slave.... free.
Really? Peter did not preach to gentiles until after Acts 10. Paul always went to the Jews before he went to the gentiles whenever he entered a city. It is a basic part of church history that the early church was made up of many Jews.

As to Christian's in the church today... hate to break it to you... but there are MANY TIMES more Gentiles in the US and world as there are Jews in the US and World. It stands to reason that there are MANY TIMES more Gentiles in the church today than Jews for that very reason. One needs but a very basic understanding of math to be able to reason that out in their noggins. ;)
I'm not really arguing that point. If there are no Jews why are we gentiles still insisting on sign gifts? In the scriptures whenever there were signs present there were Jews present. Jesus said all His works were as a sign for the Jews. Jesus showed everything expected as the Prophet to be received by Israel. Jesus did not do mighty works for the benefit of the gentiles present. Save the time He helped a gentile woman out of compassion and as a testimony against the Jews.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 22nd 2010, 11:30 PM
Actually I have only been pointing out that you are out of context when you contend that tongues and signs are for gentiles. You claim that there is no difference yet scripture teaches differently. There is no difference only in the matter of salvation and that point is made in a number of places. When tongues are present in the scriptures they are to the Jewish folks that are present.Uh... Scripture teaches differently? Show me the passage that says the gifts of the Spirit are only for the Jew. What I have shown you Roger... they are for the body of Christ. Now... if your contention is that the body of Christ is ONLY the Jew... then you're horribly wrong but at least you'd be consistent. Is that your belief Roger?

Help us all out here Roger. Which one of these words mean "Jew Only"

Romans 12:3 *¶For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
4 *For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
5 *so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
6 *And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;
7 *if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;
8 *or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

No help there what with it talking about ALL and MANY etc? Okay... Maybe here?

1 Corinthians 12:1 *Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
2 *You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the dumb idols, however you were led.
3 *Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 *¶Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 *And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 *And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 *But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 *For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 *to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 *and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 *But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
12 *¶For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 *For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 *For the body is not one member, but many.

In there Roger? Those pagan idol worshiping Jews? Perhaps the many members means what? Many Jews? Nah Roger... you're not even close to making the case... likely a very good reason that no one else is running to your aide here and even those that believe it has ended have sense enough to stay away from supporting your case here. It's way out there Roger. Like I said before... folks argue it's ended and at least they have some obscure passages they can use to try to make their point. What you have.... nothing at all.

ProjectPeter
Nov 22nd 2010, 11:56 PM
Joel whom Peter refrences is the one who defines that the Spirit of God is poured out on all flesh yet it is your sons and your daughters not all sons and all daughters. The change of pronoun here is important to correctly understanding what is being said. Joel 2:28 God is speaking to the nation of Israel when He says your sons and your daughters. That is the context. And Peter was talking to the church... which later consisted of Gentiles.




I don't think you have really endeavored to make that point from scripture. You continue to alledge it from your opinion but I don't see any scripture supporting your position. If you got it bring it.Uh... yeah. Right Roger. Those passages I have posted from Corinthians and stuff... Guess I wrote them eh and oh yeah... I've got a Jew dislike problem and all? :rolleyes: Another tactic Roger... not a good one either.



Really? Peter did not preach to gentiles until after Acts 10. Paul always went to the Jews before he went to the gentiles whenever he entered a city. It is a basic part of church history that the early church was made up of many Jews.Uh... No where do you see where I said there was no Jews in the early church Roger. Nevertheless... Paul was an apostle to whom? He was an evangelist if you will to the Jews. But when you read that there Bible and Acts... not a bunch of them there Jewish folk followed His teaching and most times... they tried to kill the good old boy. When he shook the dust off his feet (and that's what he did most times) he then took his message to them there Gentiles. That's not part of church history Roger... that is biblical fact.




I'm not really arguing that point. If there are no Jews why are we gentiles still insisting on sign gifts? In the scriptures whenever there were signs present there were Jews present. Jesus said all His works were as a sign for the Jews. Jesus showed everything expected as the Prophet to be received by Israel. Jesus did not do mighty works for the benefit of the gentiles present. Save the time He helped a gentile woman out of compassion and as a testimony against the Jews.
That's the logic you're using with that point? Okay... so if there is a Jewish believer present... is it fine to use them there sign gifts today?

notuptome
Nov 23rd 2010, 12:24 AM
And Peter was talking to the church... which later consisted of Gentiles.
But not at that time.

Uh... yeah. Right Roger. Those passages I have posted from Corinthians and stuff... Guess I wrote them eh and oh yeah... I've got a Jew dislike problem and all? :rolleyes: Another tactic Roger... not a good one either.
Your application has been called into question. 1 Corinthians does not exist in a vacuume it must fit in with the rest of scripture.

Uh... No where do you see where I said there was no Jews in the early church Roger. Nevertheless... Paul was an apostle to whom? He was an evangelist if you will to the Jews. But when you read that there Bible and Acts... not a bunch of them there Jewish folk followed His teaching and most times... they tried to kill the good old boy. When he shook the dust off his feet (and that's what he did most times) he then took his message to them there Gentiles. That's not part of church history Roger... that is biblical fact.
Paul worked to win his brethren the Jews to the Lord. You are correct when they got totally fed up with him they drove him out and he worked among the gentiles. In this case church history is based on biblical fact. Rom 10:1-4 displays Pauls anguish for his Jewish brethren.

That's the logic you're using with that point? Okay... so if there is a Jewish believer present... is it fine to use them there sign gifts today?
That has at least some promise of being biblically correct assuming all the other conditions are met. Understanding that the gifts of the Spirit are not at their leisure but the Holy Spirit.

What was the cause for the disorder in the church at Corinth?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 23rd 2010, 12:47 AM
But not at that time. You missed a post right above this one... please respond to that one and show us what you are saying.

As to the "not at that time"... so what Roger? When Jesus said "you must be born again" He was only talking to the Jews as well and to a Jew at that time. Come on dude... is this how you read all of the Bible?


Your application has been called into question. 1 Corinthians does not exist in a vacuume it must fit in with the rest of scripture.Uh... if you hold that same standard to the writing of the gospel of John... what? You going to toss the vast majority of that gospel out because the others didn't say it? Nevertheless... see that post you either missed or skipped. It also has some more written in Romans as well.


Paul worked to win his brethren the Jews to the Lord. You are correct when they got totally fed up with him they drove him out and he worked among the gentiles. In this case church history is based on biblical fact. Rom 10:1-4 displays Pauls anguish for his Jewish brethren. Okay... so what? That has absolutely nothing to do with the passages that I have posted.


That has at least some promise of being biblically correct assuming all the other conditions are met. Understanding that the gifts of the Spirit are not at their leisure but the Holy Spirit.Not what I asked though. Is it okay then... today?


What was the cause for the disorder in the church at Corinth?Folks doing things out of order such as speaking in tongues without interpretation and taking up time with that thus not allowing other gifts to be utilized to edify the body... specifically prophecy which you think ended as well and thus making it simply "preaching" when that isn't at all the case. ;)

notuptome
Nov 23rd 2010, 02:32 AM
Uh... Scripture teaches differently? Show me the passage that says the gifts of the Spirit are only for the Jew. What I have shown you Roger... they are for the body of Christ. Now... if your contention is that the body of Christ is ONLY the Jew... then you're horribly wrong but at least you'd be consistent. Is that your belief Roger?
When one begins to accuse another of such wildly false things it is not at good sign that the one is on solid ground. In every instance where the gift of tongues is displayed it was for the benefit of the Jews present. Do you have one instance where gentiles spoke in tongues for their edification?

Help us all out here Roger. Which one of these words mean "Jew Only"
Please rephrase your question.

Romans 12:3 *¶For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
4 *For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
5 *so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
6 *And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;
7 *if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;
8 *or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

No help there what with it talking about ALL and MANY etc? Okay... Maybe here?
This does not appear to be describing the gifts that you are usually going on about. Paul does not mention tongues in that passage even one time. Prophecy here is not necessariarly future telling but could be and more likely is forth telling which we today would consider preaching.


1 Corinthians 12:1 *Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
2 *You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the dumb idols, however you were led.
3 *Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 *¶Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 *And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 *And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 *But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 *For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 *to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 *and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 *But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
12 *¶For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 *For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 *For the body is not one member, but many.

In there Roger? Those pagan idol worshiping Jews? Perhaps the many members means what? Many Jews? Nah Roger... you're not even close to making the case... likely a very good reason that no one else is running to your aide here and even those that believe it has ended have sense enough to stay away from supporting your case here. It's way out there Roger. Like I said before... folks argue it's ended and at least they have some obscure passages they can use to try to make their point. What you have.... nothing at all.
The pagan worshippers were the gentiles not the Jews at least according to my translation of the bible. It is evident we are not using the same translation. One of the reasons the Jews hated the gentiles was idol worship.

I agree that scripture teaches that there is one Holy Spirit who operates in the church. Where we disagree is that the Holy Spirit does not move gentiles to speak in tongues except as a sign for the Jews. I do not define prophecy as future telling but as forth telling or simple preaching of Gods word. 1 Cor 12:9 is interesting in that it does not say the gift of healers but healing.

I was not aware that any passage of scripture is obscure. I always thought it all was profitable for doctrine for reproof and for instruction in righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 23rd 2010, 02:47 AM
You missed a post right above this one... please respond to that one and show us what you are saying.

As to the "not at that time"... so what Roger? When Jesus said "you must be born again" He was only talking to the Jews as well and to a Jew at that time. Come on dude... is this how you read all of the Bible?
I was speaking to the make up of the crowd gathered at pentacost. Why would you think it strange that a speaker would tailor his message to his audience? When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus he was talking to one specific Jew. When Jesus spoke later He spoke to all men, well to the Jew first then to the gentile. Salvation is of the Jews. John 4:22

Uh... if you hold that same standard to the writing of the gospel of John... what? You going to toss the vast majority of that gospel out because the others didn't say it? Nevertheless... see that post you either missed or skipped. It also has some more written in Romans as well.
Try some decaf.

Okay... so what? That has absolutely nothing to do with the passages that I have posted.
Thats a shame.

Not what I asked though. Is it okay then... today?
Maybe.

Folks doing things out of order such as speaking in tongues without interpretation and taking up time with that thus not allowing other gifts to be utilized to edify the body... specifically prophecy which you think ended as well and thus making it simply "preaching" when that isn't at all the case. ;)
So was it the Holy Spirit operating in these people if they were acting contrary to Gods word?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 23rd 2010, 04:26 AM
When one begins to accuse another of such wildly false things it is not at good sign that the one is on solid ground. In every instance where the gift of tongues is displayed it was for the benefit of the Jews present. Do you have one instance where gentiles spoke in tongues for their edification?Sure... 1 Corinthians 14. When they did it right and had it interpreted.



Please rephrase your question.Um... it was very simple so no clue as to how I could make it even more so. Where in any of the Scripture I posted or that you are even aware of does Scripture say that the gifts of the Spirit are only for the Jew. It ain't a hard question really.


This does not appear to be describing the gifts that you are usually going on about. Paul does not mention tongues in that passage even one time. Prophecy here is not necessariarly future telling but could be and more likely is forth telling which we today would consider preaching.They are gifts of the Spirit Roger and they are doled out to whom? As to prophecy being "forth telling thus preaching"... no. Let me help you out here.

propheteia -- pronounced: {prof-ay-ti'-ah}

from 4396 ("prophecy"); prediction (scriptural or other): -- prophecy, prophesying.



The pagan worshippers were the gentiles not the Jews at least according to my translation of the bible.Interesting. So who was Paul speaking to when speaking of how the Holy Spirit gives gifts? Keep following that Gentile trail Roger... you're on the right path.


It is evident we are not using the same translation. One of the reasons the Jews hated the gentiles was idol worship. Be a bit more quick Roger. I know who the "pagans" were. He was speaking to the Gentiles in that passage of Scripture and he continues. That was the point of posting that Roger... trying to get you to see whom it was that Paul as speaking to about the spiritual gifts which included tongues.... all that stuff you say wasn't for the Gentiles etc. ;)


I agree that scripture teaches that there is one Holy Spirit who operates in the church. Where we disagree is that the Holy Spirit does not move gentiles to speak in tongues except as a sign for the Jews. I do not define prophecy as future telling but as forth telling or simple preaching of Gods word. 1 Cor 12:9 is interesting in that it does not say the gift of healers but healing. Paul never says in Corinthians that tongues were for the Jews. It was for edification and for unbelievers... never does it say Jew. You keep saying it does... where? What others can read Roger... God makes no distinction here between any race in the use of the gifts. You are trying to negate that passage of Paul's.


I was not aware that any passage of scripture is obscure. I always thought it all was profitable for doctrine for reproof and for instruction in righteousness.

You aren't the most dim bulb in the hallway so I know you understand my point. Other than that... I'll not even justify a further response to that.

ProjectPeter
Nov 23rd 2010, 04:38 AM
I was speaking to the make up of the crowd gathered at pentacost. Why would you think it strange that a speaker would tailor his message to his audience? When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus he was talking to one specific Jew. When Jesus spoke later He spoke to all men, well to the Jew first then to the gentile. Salvation is of the Jews. John 4:22And my point... you blow off a lot of Scripture when it doesn't work for your doctrine as "Jew Only" and my point... be consistent. None of the gospels is applicable to us Gentile. The entire Old Testament... chuck that bad boy because we're not Jewish! You're a bit of an odd duck too in that you do the same with any of Paul's writing that sort of trips you up doctrinally... so when you're all said and done... there ain't much in that book that applies to a Gentile. It's an odd way of thinking considering you spend an awful lot of time on how the Bible is our authority and the Word of God... weird to see you say BUT... only applicable to the Jews at near every turn!


Try some decaf.

Thats a shame.

Maybe. Ignoring the little jabs... explain why "maybe?"




So was it the Holy Spirit operating in these people if they were acting contrary to Gods word?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Uh... how were they acting contrary to God's Word? It wasn't until Paul corrected them about order that it became "God's Word" eh? Up to that time... I'm not aware of any Scripture telling them only a couple at one gathering is enough and everyone don't do it all at once and by the way... if there is no interpreter then while you are edified it doesn't edify the body... so pray between you and God and let someone else edify the body whole.

See Roger... that's rightly dividing and understanding the context and the audience and etc. You just go on and on about stuff and then you answer like this and it's like... uh... you think? It became a rule after Paul made it the rule Roger. Until then... they were just expressing a gift of the Spirit that they had. Paul was just telling them WHOA GUYS!!!! SLOW DOWN HERE! Thus... it became a rule for the church to follow and we should be following that rule today because hey... good rule. ;)

notuptome
Nov 23rd 2010, 08:30 PM
And my point... you blow off a lot of Scripture when it doesn't work for your doctrine as "Jew Only" and my point... be consistent. None of the gospels is applicable to us Gentile. The entire Old Testament... chuck that bad boy because we're not Jewish! You're a bit of an odd duck too in that you do the same with any of Paul's writing that sort of trips you up doctrinally... so when you're all said and done... there ain't much in that book that applies to a Gentile. It's an odd way of thinking considering you spend an awful lot of time on how the Bible is our authority and the Word of God... weird to see you say BUT... only applicable to the Jews at near every turn!
I have limited my comments to the sign gifts. If we deign to look at what Joel says we will see that Joel speaks of sign gifts prophesy, dreams and visions. Peter speaks of tongues which are again a sign gift. These are for the benefit of the Jews. This is demonstrated in the examples given in scripture. There are other gifts which operate that are not signs gifts but still find their source in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 13:8 addresses only three gifts that will end. Only three the rest presumably continue especially love. I have never said that the word of God only applies to the Jew. I only point out that the word of God was given to the Jews by God because God has determined that it is His pleasure to do so. It applies to the entire world but it was given to the Jews.

Ignoring the little jabs... explain why "maybe?"
Just trying to keep track of things. Why, maybe? The operation of the sign gifts were restricted and later terminated. God can do anything as some will no doubt contribute but three of the gifts will end. Really have ended.

Uh... how were they acting contrary to God's Word? It wasn't until Paul corrected them about order that it became "God's Word" eh? Up to that time... I'm not aware of any Scripture telling them only a couple at one gathering is enough and everyone don't do it all at once and by the way... if there is no interpreter then while you are edified it doesn't edify the body... so pray between you and God and let someone else edify the body whole.
the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion so these were acting in their own will. The body was not edified but rather subjected to mockery. 1 Cor 14:23

See Roger... that's rightly dividing and understanding the context and the audience and etc. You just go on and on about stuff and then you answer like this and it's like... uh... you think? It became a rule after Paul made it the rule Roger. Until then... they were just expressing a gift of the Spirit that they had. Paul was just telling them WHOA GUYS!!!! SLOW DOWN HERE! Thus... it became a rule for the church to follow and we should be following that rule today because hey... good rule. ;)
Really? God had to be reminded of how to behave in church? We both know better than that. Well I need to go back and look at something else you said if I can find it again. Lots of distractions right now.

For the cause of Christ
roger

notuptome
Nov 23rd 2010, 08:54 PM
Sure... 1 Corinthians 14. When they did it right and had it interpreted.
Having these two posts in reverse order is making it confusing. Now how did you determine that the tongues speakers in the Corinthian church were gentiles esp the ones who were out of order? In 1 Cor 5:1 Paul seems to indicate that the problem was with the Jewish believers not the gentiles.

Um... it was very simple so no clue as to how I could make it even more so. Where in any of the Scripture I posted or that you are even aware of does Scripture say that the gifts of the Spirit are only for the Jew. It ain't a hard question really.
The sign gifts specifically were to the Jews. Joel 2

They are gifts of the Spirit Roger and they are doled out to whom? As to prophecy being "forth telling thus preaching"... no. Let me help you out here.

propheteia -- pronounced: {prof-ay-ti'-ah}

from 4396 ("prophecy"); prediction (scriptural or other): -- prophecy, prophesying.
That is the root word but the word in 1 Cor 12:10 is 4394 propheteia 1b2 the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets.

Interesting. So who was Paul speaking to when speaking of how the Holy Spirit gives gifts? Keep following that Gentile trail Roger... you're on the right path.
The gentiles no doubt were the beneficiaries of the wisdom gifts but not the sign gifts as they were for the Jews. 1 Cor 1:22

Be a bit more quick Roger. I know who the "pagans" were. He was speaking to the Gentiles in that passage of Scripture and he continues. That was the point of posting that Roger... trying to get you to see whom it was that Paul as speaking to about the spiritual gifts which included tongues.... all that stuff you say wasn't for the Gentiles etc. ;)
Yeah but the word of God does not change. Jews=signs, gentiles=wisdom.

Paul never says in Corinthians that tongues were for the Jews. It was for edification and for unbelievers... never does it say Jew. You keep saying it does... where? What others can read Roger... God makes no distinction here between any race in the use of the gifts. You are trying to negate that passage of Paul's.
1 Cor 1:22 Joel 2 Acts 2 There is no difference in how men are saved and made part of the church but in the body the ministrations of the Holy Spirit are guided by Gods word. This position does not negate anything Paul wrote just the way the modern church chooses to view it.

You aren't the most dim bulb in the hallway so I know you understand my point. Other than that... I'll not even justify a further response to that.
Aah yes this is what I wanted to address. It is amusing that the modern church is barely able to find its way around in the NT and when it comes to the OT they are completely lost. Even many men who claim to be preachers are adverse to preaching and teaching from the OT not all but many. Seems only reasonable to me that when something is quoted in the NT that is in the OT we should go back and study it so we can learn how to apply it correctly in the NT. Many have commented about how we cannot read first century writings with a twenty first century mindset.

Thanks for your contribution to the conversation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 23rd 2010, 09:12 PM
I have limited my comments to the sign gifts. If we deign to look at what Joel says we will see that Joel speaks of sign gifts prophesy, dreams and visions. Peter speaks of tongues which are again a sign gift. These are for the benefit of the Jews. This is demonstrated in the examples given in scripture. There are other gifts which operate that are not signs gifts but still find their source in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 13:8 addresses only three gifts that will end. Only three the rest presumably continue especially love. I have never said that the word of God only applies to the Jew. I only point out that the word of God was given to the Jews by God because God has determined that it is His pleasure to do so. It applies to the entire world but it was given to the Jews. How does it apply to all when you say often... that was to the Jew and not the Gentile. Gotta tell you Roger... what you are saying is that doesn't apply to the Gentile when you say that.


Just trying to keep track of things. Why, maybe? The operation of the sign gifts were restricted and later terminated. God can do anything as some will no doubt contribute but three of the gifts will end. Really have ended. Why those three and not the others? You see nothing that says in Scripture that THESE 3 gifts are no more... but yet hey... why just the three?


the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion so these were acting in their own will. The body was not edified but rather subjected to mockery. 1 Cor 14:23 Sure they were not controlling their mouth but that has nothing to do with the validity of the gift Roger. They had no direction up to that point. Paul gave them that direction. There was nothing "sinful" about what they were doing... it was just not orderly.


Really? God had to be reminded of how to behave in church? We both know better than that. Well I need to go back and look at something else you said if I can find it again. Lots of distractions right now.Again... Paul made it clear that they controlled their mouths and they didn't have to speak aloud when they had a tongue. You are turning it into sinfulness Roger and if not careful even attributing the actual gift to something other than the Spirit. Paul never said any such thing and you need to use caution doing so yourself. It's a dangerous thing to do.

ProjectPeter
Nov 23rd 2010, 09:34 PM
Having these two posts in reverse order is making it confusing. Now how did you determine that the tongues speakers in the Corinthian church were gentiles esp the ones who were out of order? In 1 Cor 5:1 Paul seems to indicate that the problem was with the Jewish believers not the gentiles. Huh? How in the word does that lead you to think he was speaking to Jews only? Because he says such as not among the Gentile? Insert "heathen" there and you get the point. That's what the word means.


The sign gifts specifically were to the Jews. Joel 2That doesn't say it is to the Jew only. Peter didn't say it was to the Jew only. Paul certainly made it clear that it wasn't to the Jew only... he makes it clear that God has no such distinction with the gifts of the Spirit Roger.

1 Corinthians 12:12 *¶For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 *For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 *For the body is not one member, but many.
15 *If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
16 *And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
17 *If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18 *But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
19 *And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 *But now there are many members, but one body.
21 *And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 *On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
23 *and those members of the body, which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our unseemly members come to have more abundant seemliness,
24 *whereas our seemly members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
25 *that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
26 *And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 *Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
28 *And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 *All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 *All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31 *But earnestly desire the greater gifts. ¶And I show you a still more excellent way.



That is the root word but the word in 1 Cor 12:10 is 4394 propheteia 1b2 the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets.That is the word I defined and that is the definition of that word Roger. I'm not using a Greek Word study from someone that has to fix it to fit their belief. I'm just using the simple strongs definition. Although, like with most Greek Studies... if I wanted to then there are plenty out there that will work for my view as well... you know the drill. ;)




The gentiles no doubt were the beneficiaries of the wisdom gifts but not the sign gifts as they were for the Jews. 1 Cor 1:22 Wisdom gifts? Are they still in operation and which do you count as "wisdom" gifts? I assume discernment and word of knowledge would fit there?




Yeah but the word of God does not change. Jews=signs, gentiles=wisdom.Um... Roger. In context PAUL was not speaking of the gifts of the Spirit there eh?


1 Cor 1:22 Joel 2 Acts 2 There is no difference in how men are saved and made part of the church but in the body the ministrations of the Holy Spirit are guided by Gods word. This position does not negate anything Paul wrote just the way the modern church chooses to view it. Peter didn't not use that in regard to salvation did he? Wasn't he in fact explaining what it was that they were seeing and hearing at that time? Context is a bear Roger!


Aah yes this is what I wanted to address. It is amusing that the modern church is barely able to find its way around in the NT and when it comes to the OT they are completely lost. Even many men who claim to be preachers are adverse to preaching and teaching from the OT not all but many. Seems only reasonable to me that when something is quoted in the NT that is in the OT we should go back and study it so we can learn how to apply it correctly in the NT. Many have commented about how we cannot read first century writings with a twenty first century mindset. I see. So Scripture died somewhere along the way and is no longer a living Word today? Blah... no Roger. I don't need to have a Jewish mindset to understand the Scripture. I don't need to have lived 2000 years ago to understand Paul. Nothing wrong with understanding cultures and cultural phrases and idioms etc... but it is just as alive today and applicable today as then. Don't murder... do stuff in order... if you steal, stop it... don't need to go back in time to understand any of that stuff. ;)


Thanks for your contribution to the conversation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You as well.

notuptome
Nov 23rd 2010, 10:00 PM
Huh? How in the word does that lead you to think he was speaking to Jews only? Because he says such as not among the Gentile? Insert "heathen" there and you get the point. That's what the word means.
Because they are the ones to whom the sign gifts are given.

That doesn't say it is to the Jew only. Peter didn't say it was to the Jew only. Paul certainly made it clear that it wasn't to the Jew only... he makes it clear that God has no such distinction with the gifts of the Spirit Roger.
Joel changes the pronoun to your sons and your daughters not all sons and all daughters. Peter was amid his Jewish brethren when he spoke of the evidence of tongues. Every time they are evidenced in Acts it is for the benefit or witness to the Jews.


1 Corinthians 12:12 *¶For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 *For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 *For the body is not one member, but many.
15 *If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
16 *And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
17 *If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18 *But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
19 *And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 *But now there are many members, but one body.
21 *And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 *On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
23 *and those members of the body, which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our unseemly members come to have more abundant seemliness,
24 *whereas our seemly members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
25 *that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
26 *And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 *Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
28 *And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 *All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 *All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31 *But earnestly desire the greater gifts. ¶And I show you a still more excellent way.

We can quote this portion of scripture again and again but you cannot make your highlighted portion to say anything about gifts. It is speaking of how we become part of the body. Joel said the Spirit would be poured out on all flesh. The distribution of the gifts follows and they are given as each has ability and as God determines.

That is the word I defined and that is the definition of that word Roger. I'm not using a Greek Word study from someone that has to fix it to fit their belief. I'm just using the simple strongs definition. Although, like with most Greek Studies... if I wanted to then there are plenty out there that will work for my view as well... you know the drill. ;)
I'm no greek scholar so I only give what Strongs has. I do know that the greek is way different from english the same word having multiple meanings.

Wisdom gifts? Are they still in operation and which do you count as "wisdom" gifts? I assume discernment and word of knowledge would fit there?
Wisdom yes knowledge no. Knowledge as I understand it here in context is outside the ability of man to discern on his own.

Um... Roger. In context PAUL was not speaking of the gifts of the Spirit there eh?
Yeah he was. Preaching was for the heathen. For the Jews the preaching was to be confirmed by the signs.

Peter didn't not use that in regard to salvation did he? Wasn't he in fact explaining what it was that they were seeing and hearing at that time? Context is a bear Roger!
No those who were speaking in tongues were already saved. Those who heard Peter preach and were baptised also spoke in tongues. So the Holy Spirit baptised these new believers into the body then they evidenced their new birth with the sign of speaking in tongues.

I see. So Scripture died somewhere along the way and is no longer a living Word today? Blah... no Roger. I don't need to have a Jewish mindset to understand the Scripture. I don't need to have lived 2000 years ago to understand Paul. Nothing wrong with understanding cultures and cultural phrases and idioms etc... but it is just as alive today and applicable today as then. Don't murder... do stuff in order... if you steal, stop it... don't need to go back in time to understand any of that stuff. ;)
True if that is all the deeper you want to know Gods word. We are expected to grow from milk into meat through study of the scriptures. We need a solid base so we are not swept away with every wind of doctrine. Eph 4:14

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 23rd 2010, 10:12 PM
Because they are the ones to whom the sign gifts are given. You keep saying that but emphasis place on YOU keep saying it. Scripture doesn't. ;)




Joel changes the pronoun to your sons and your daughters not all sons and all daughters. Peter was amid his Jewish brethren when he spoke of the evidence of tongues. Every time they are evidenced in Acts it is for the benefit or witness to the Jews.Imagine that, what with him being in Jerusalem on Pentecost and all and likely even in the temple. ;) However, Paul wasn't speaking to Jews only. Peter also understood, after dealing with Cornelius,... well don't that beat all... Gentiles too!




We can quote this portion of scripture again and again but you cannot make your highlighted portion to say anything about gifts. It is speaking of how we become part of the body. Joel said the Spirit would be poured out on all flesh. The distribution of the gifts follows and they are given as each has ability and as God determines.To the body which consist of Jew, Gentile, slave, free. Right?


I'm no greek scholar so I only give what Strongs has. I do know that the greek is way different from english the same word having multiple meanings.I posted the Strong's definition. You disagreed.



Wisdom yes knowledge no. Knowledge as I understand it here in context is outside the ability of man to discern on his own.So is that the only gift still applicable today?




Yeah he was. Preaching was for the heathen. For the Jews the preaching was to be confirmed by the signs.No Roger... he wasn't. He was speaking of the preaching of the cross.

1 Corinthians 1:18 *¶For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 *For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."
20 *Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 *For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 *For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 *but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness,
24 *but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 *Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 *¶For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27 *but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28 *and the base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not, that He might nullify the things that are,
29 *that no man should boast before God.
30 *But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 *that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."


No those who were speaking in tongues were already saved. Those who heard Peter preach and were baptised also spoke in tongues. So the Holy Spirit baptised these new believers into the body then they evidenced their new birth with the sign of speaking in tongues.So was Peter in fact explaining to them what they were seeing and hearing was exactly what the Prophet spoke about? You didn't really answer the question.


True if that is all the deeper you want to know Gods word. We are expected to grow from milk into meat through study of the scriptures. We need a solid base so we are not swept away with every wind of doctrine. Eph 4:14By deeper you mean what... add "to the Jew only" thus you've gone deep? Not really Roger! ;)

Caleb
Nov 23rd 2010, 11:27 PM
What does it mean to be edified? Especially edified on a spiritual level that you cannot comprehend?

Isn't that what Paul said in verse 13 of the previous chapter?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ah right, so prophecy and the office of a prophet, is for children?

Caleb
Nov 23rd 2010, 11:43 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Kahtar View Post
Just throwing this in here. Not looking to argue with anyone. But Paul spoke of the language of angels also, as a language he could speak.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1 Corinthians 13:1
Ever heard that language? It's clearly not a language of men.
Trying to explain what takes place in one's spirit when he speaks in tongues is like trying to explain exactly how the brain works. I could no more explain the 'mysteries' of one than I could the other, but I certainly do experience both.


Actually Paul said "If" I speak, I don't think Paul was saying he speaks the language of angels, I think his point was if he could speak everything and do everything, yet did not have love, it meant nothing.

Do you mean that Paul might have spoke with the tongues of men? :)

notuptome
Nov 23rd 2010, 11:47 PM
You keep saying that but emphasis place on YOU keep saying it. Scripture doesn't. ;)
I keep saying it because it is still in Gods word. When Gods word changes I'll change.

Imagine that, what with him being in Jerusalem on Pentecost and all and likely even in the temple. ;) However, Paul wasn't speaking to Jews only. Peter also understood, after dealing with Cornelius,... well don't that beat all... Gentiles too!
How do you figure that Peter and Paul changed Joels prophecy?

To the body which consist of Jew, Gentile, slave, free. Right?
Yes, however not all get all the gifts. You know that right?

I posted the Strong's definition. You disagreed.
Included the extended definition noting the the greek allows for it.

So is that the only gift still applicable today?
Again only three are said to end.

No Roger... he wasn't. He was speaking of the preaching of the cross.

1 Corinthians 1:18 *¶For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 *For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."
20 *Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 *For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 *For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 *but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness,
24 *but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 *Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 *¶For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27 *but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28 *and the base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not, that He might nullify the things that are,
29 *that no man should boast before God.
30 *But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 *that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."
Only foolishness to those who perish not to those who are called (saved). To them it is power and wisdom. Dunamis power miraculous power. 1411

So was Peter in fact explaining to them what they were seeing and hearing was exactly what the Prophet spoke about? You didn't really answer the question.
Certainly part of what Joel prophesied to Israel.

By deeper you mean what... add "to the Jew only" thus you've gone deep? Not really Roger! ;)
You know what I mean. Deeper by considering all the scriptures and how they fit together to form a more detailed picture. If one does not go back and study Joel 2 they cannot know that part of the prophsey remains unfulfilled. It will remain so until the Lord returns for Israel at the end of the tribulation.

Perhaps you would be more comfortable with the phrase "to the Jew first"?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Nov 23rd 2010, 11:49 PM
Ah right, so prophecy and the office of a prophet, is for children?
Clearly you did not grasp what was said. Either that or I have no idea what you are questioning. I see nothing of the sort in what you have quoted me saying.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 24th 2010, 12:38 AM
I keep saying it because it is still in Gods word. When Gods word changes I'll change. okay then help us all out here. I have shown clearly where the gifts of the Spirit are for the body of Christ as a whole including tongues. I still keep missing that passage that says it is ONLY FOR THE JEWS. Where would that be? Your 1 chapter passage is clearly not speaking of gifts of the Spirit as I pointed out already.. context being the preaching of the cross. So help us out here Roger. We all hear you clear... we're just not seeing you. ;)




How do you figure that Peter and Paul changed Joels prophecy? Uh... who said they changed it? Was Peter explaining what was happening using that prophecy? Answer is yes Ken, he was. That's the only right answer Roger. Context is more clear than glass dude. ;)




Yes, however not all get all the gifts. You know that right?Not all get tongues... you bet. Not all get prophecy... absolutely... not all get discerning of spirits or words of knowledge.. etc. Paul makes that clear as well. The Spirit doles it out to whom the Spirit sees fit. Nationality, sex, social class... matters not.



Included the extended definition noting the the greek allows for it. There you go... you chose the "allows for it." Thing is... the definition is exactly what I posted. The "allows for it" is because some folks needed it to be allowed thus it was worked to be such. ;)




Again only three are said to end.Why just three? Why, one day, will discerning of spirits be necessary? Answer.. it won't. Paul just didn't write all that stuff out because Paul figured folks should be able to get his point without doing so. There will come a time when none of the gifts of the Spirit will be necessary. There will come a time when there won't be a need for the indwelling of the Spirit of God etc.




Only foolishness to those who perish not to those who are called (saved). To them it is power and wisdom. Dunamis power miraculous power. 1411Tell you what Roger. We talk about chapter 12 and 14 and you jump back to one. I talk about chapter 1 and you talk about chapter 14. Deal with that passage in chapter 1. It is speaking of the cross... not the gift of the Spirit. Chapter 1 is not the same context as chapter 14... and I know well you know that. If someone else pulled that on you then you'd be flipping like Cheetah! ;)




Certainly part of what Joel prophesied to Israel.But didn't Peter catch himself a revelation in chapter 10 with Cornelius... Well I'll be!!! Gentiles too!




You know what I mean. Deeper by considering all the scriptures and how they fit together to form a more detailed picture. If one does not go back and study Joel 2 they cannot know that part of the prophsey remains unfulfilled. It will remain so until the Lord returns for Israel at the end of the tribulation.

Perhaps you would be more comfortable with the phrase "to the Jew first"?

For the cause of Christ
RogerDo you think Joel understood the prophecy to include Gentiles and Christ being the savior of ALL men? You do know they didn't understand much in that regard... right?

notuptome
Nov 24th 2010, 01:19 AM
okay then help us all out here. I have shown clearly where the gifts of the Spirit are for the body of Christ as a whole including tongues. I still keep missing that passage that says it is ONLY FOR THE JEWS. Where would that be? Your 1 chapter passage is clearly not speaking of gifts of the Spirit as I pointed out already.. context being the preaching of the cross. So help us out here Roger. We all hear you clear... we're just not seeing you. ;)
Oh I get it you see just fine you just don't like at all.

Uh... who said they changed it? Was Peter explaining what was happening using that prophecy? Answer is yes Ken, he was. That's the only right answer Roger. Context is more clear than glass dude. ;)
Yeah that would be you. I agree with Peter tongues are for the sons and daughters of Israel. Peter agrees with Joel and the Holy Spirit has demonstrated it throughout the book of Acts.

Not all get tongues... you bet. Not all get prophecy... absolutely... not all get discerning of spirits or words of knowledge.. etc. Paul makes that clear as well. The Spirit doles it out to whom the Spirit sees fit. Nationality, sex, social class... matters not.
The Holy Spirit distributes as God purposes. He don't make no mistakes. He only makes Christians out of repentant sinners.

There you go... you chose the "allows for it." Thing is... the definition is exactly what I posted. The "allows for it" is because some folks needed it to be allowed thus it was worked to be such. ;)
It is also exactly what I posted.

Why just three? Why, one day, will discerning of spirits be necessary? Answer.. it won't. Paul just didn't write all that stuff out because Paul figured folks should be able to get his point without doing so. There will come a time when none of the gifts of the Spirit will be necessary. There will come a time when there won't be a need for the indwelling of the Spirit of God etc.
God determined that those three would end perhaps you might enquire of Him. I do not find your comment about the indwelling Holy Spirit to be appropriate. I do not expect a person of your stature to impune the Holy Spirit.

Tell you what Roger. We talk about chapter 12 and 14 and you jump back to one. I talk about chapter 1 and you talk about chapter 14. Deal with that passage in chapter 1. It is speaking of the cross... not the gift of the Spirit. Chapter 1 is not the same context as chapter 14... and I know well you know that. If someone else pulled that on you then you'd be flipping like Cheetah! ;)
So a principal in chapter one that is a reaffirmation of something Jesus said of the Jews Mat 12:38, 16:1 no longer applies in chs 12-14? The gift of the Holy Spirit, received at salvation, is not the same as the gifts of the Holy Spirit spoken of in chs 12-14.

But didn't Peter catch himself a revelation in chapter 10 with Cornelius... Well I'll be!!! Gentiles too!
That Peter being a Jew would see a vision is not a big suprize. Not to mention Peters status as an apostle chosen for a special ministry in the newly forming church.

Do you think Joel understood the prophecy to include Gentiles and Christ being the savior of ALL men? You do know they didn't understand much in that regard... right?
Does it matter? Jehovah God knew and He is the One Who gave it to Joel. Should a rising tide lift only your boat and not all others in the harbor?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 24th 2010, 02:06 AM
Oh I get it you see just fine you just don't like at all.

Okay... let's go one at a time since you're not answering anything in these longer post.

Show me in this passage the context being anything to do with gifts of the Spirit instead of the preaching of the cross.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void.
18 ¶For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness,
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 ¶For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28 and the base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not, that He might nullify the things that are,
29 that no man should boast before God.
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Show us where this is speaking of the gifts of the Spirit and not the preaching of the cross.

ProjectPeter
Nov 24th 2010, 02:16 AM
Yeah that would be you. I agree with Peter tongues are for the sons and daughters of Israel. Peter agrees with Joel and the Holy Spirit has demonstrated it throughout the book of Acts.Until you get to that Acts 10 chapter when that crazy Gentile folk did the same thing. ;)




The Holy Spirit distributes as God purposes. He don't make no mistakes. He only makes Christians out of repentant sinners.

It is also exactly what I posted.

God determined that those three would end perhaps you might enquire of Him. I do not find your comment about the indwelling Holy Spirit to be appropriate. I do not expect a person of your stature to impune the Holy Spirit.Why do you disagree? When you have the inheritance... I don't think you're going to be needing the pledge any longer eh?




So a principal in chapter one that is a reaffirmation of something Jesus said of the Jews Mat 12:38, 16:1 no longer applies in chs 12-14? The gift of the Holy Spirit, received at salvation, is not the same as the gifts of the Holy Spirit spoken of in chs 12-14. Not when it has nothing at all to do with 12-14 and the gifts of the Spirit Roger. Context Roger... context!




That Peter being a Jew would see a vision is not a big suprize. Not to mention Peters status as an apostle chosen for a special ministry in the newly forming church.Are you intentionally side stepping or did the point just totally miss the mark? You seem to be doing that a lot and sort of seems you are working hard at sidestepping at many turns!




Does it matter? Jehovah God knew and He is the One Who gave it to Joel. Should a rising tide lift only your boat and not all others in the harbor?

For the cause of Christ
RogerShoot no... I don't think it matters at all but you're the one hollering.,.. BUT BUT BUT HE SAID IT TO THE JEWS!!! ;) God showed Peter... and the rest of the apostles... Not just the Jews boys... but all folks no matter race, class, or sex!

notuptome
Nov 24th 2010, 05:39 PM
Until you get to that Acts 10 chapter when that crazy Gentile folk did the same thing. ;)
I've lost count of how many times I've shown from this passage that Cornelius speaking in tongues was for the benefit of them of the circumcision that accompanied Peter.

Why do you disagree? When you have the inheritance... I don't think you're going to be needing the pledge any longer eh?
You just never know when you'll run into some of them worms with shotguns.

Not when it has nothing at all to do with 12-14 and the gifts of the Spirit Roger. Context Roger... context!
God said that a thing is established in the mouths of two or three witnesses. I have shown from many witnesses that the Jews look for, seek or need a sign. All of scripture relates to all the rest of scripture none of scripture is of any private interpretation.

Are you intentionally side stepping or did the point just totally miss the mark? You seem to be doing that a lot and sort of seems you are working hard at sidestepping at many turns!
I have addressed every point you have raised and done so from the scriptures.

Shoot no... I don't think it matters at all but you're the one hollering.,.. BUT BUT BUT HE SAID IT TO THE JEWS!!! ;) God showed Peter... and the rest of the apostles... Not just the Jews boys... but all folks no matter race, class, or sex!
The problem here is that it doen't matter to you for a completely different reason. Just how many of the Apostles who were with Jesus were Gentiles? How many women were called Apostles? How many of the Apostles were of the ruling class?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 24th 2010, 05:44 PM
I've lost count of how many times I've shown from this passage that Cornelius speaking in tongues was for the benefit of them of the circumcision that accompanied Peter.

You just never know when you'll run into some of them worms with shotguns.

God said that a thing is established in the mouths of two or three witnesses. I have shown from many witnesses that the Jews look for, seek or need a sign. All of scripture relates to all the rest of scripture none of scripture is of any private interpretation.

I have addressed every point you have raised and done so from the scriptures.

The problem here is that it doen't matter to you for a completely different reason. Just how many of the Apostles who were with Jesus were Gentiles? How many women were called Apostles? How many of the Apostles were of the ruling class?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Uh... when Jesus was on the earth it was for the Jew first and his disciples were Jewish as well... sort of stands to reason. Didn't stay that way nor was it intended to stay that way... Jesus knew that. The boys were a little slow on the take but they did figure that out when it was time to figure it out eh?

And no... you have shown why you THINK it for the Jews only. Your showing though falls short... way short of making any such a case. I've shown that Scripturally. You are still sidestepping Roger. ;) Paul wasn't writing Jews Only when he penned 1 Corinthians.

notuptome
Nov 24th 2010, 05:48 PM
Okay... let's go one at a time since you're not answering anything in these longer post.

Show me in this passage the context being anything to do with gifts of the Spirit instead of the preaching of the cross.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void.
18 ¶For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness,
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 ¶For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28 and the base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not, that He might nullify the things that are,
29 that no man should boast before God.
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Show us where this is speaking of the gifts of the Spirit and not the preaching of the cross.
You cannot divorce chapter one from the rest of the book or the rest of the bible. You cannot receive any gifts until you posess the Holy Spirit. Paul was always about bringing the lost to Christ. When the Jews were confronted by the gospel Paul was preaching it was sometimes necessary for God to demonstrate signs or wonders for Pauls authority to preach to be established. Paul when he confronted the Gentiles with the gospel could reason from the scriptures and be assured that by Holy Spirit illumination Gentiles would be convinced that Christ was able to save them from their sins by grace through faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 24th 2010, 06:02 PM
You cannot divorce chapter one from the rest of the book or the rest of the bible. You cannot receive any gifts until you posess the Holy Spirit. Paul was always about bringing the lost to Christ. When the Jews were confronted by the gospel Paul was preaching it was sometimes necessary for God to demonstrate signs or wonders for Pauls authority to preach to be established. Paul when he confronted the Gentiles with the gospel could reason from the scriptures and be assured that by Holy Spirit illumination Gentiles would be convinced that Christ was able to save them from their sins by grace through faith.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger... remember when someone tried to bring in Chapter 3 and we agreed that chapter 3 had nothing to do with chapter 12-14 because context didn't allow for that? Apply same here Roger. Context has nothing at all to do with the gifts of the Spirit... if so then SHOW US WHERE. What I see... the preaching of the Cross of Christ. Not gifts of the Spirit. You're stretching it way out of sorts Roger!

notuptome
Nov 24th 2010, 06:08 PM
Uh... when Jesus was on the earth it was for the Jew first and his disciples were Jewish as well... sort of stands to reason. Didn't stay that way nor was it intended to stay that way... Jesus knew that. The boys were a little slow on the take but they did figure that out when it was time to figure it out eh?

And no... you have shown why you THINK it for the Jews only. Your showing though falls short... way short of making any such a case. I've shown that Scripturally. You are still sidestepping Roger. ;) Paul wasn't writing Jews Only when he penned 1 Corinthians.
Well I don't believe I have contended that Paul only wrote to Jewish Christians at Corinth despite what seems to be your intent to characterize me in that context. Paul did identify certain specific Jews when he pointed out certain specific errors but he was addressing the church as a whole. I do not think that it was only Jews that were in error as it seems there were plenty of problems to go around for all at Corinth.

A case could be made that the Jews being better versed in the OT scriptures would have understood what the Apostles were writing in the NT. The Gentiles are seen as coming to Christ from idol worship and really may not have posessed the underlying basics from which the NT church was being formed. In any case it does not alter the relevence of the whole of scripture to them or us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Nov 24th 2010, 06:11 PM
Well I don't believe I have contended that Paul only wrote to Jewish Christians at Corinth despite what seems to be your intent to characterize me in that context. Paul did identify certain specific Jews when he pointed out certain specific errors but he was addressing the church as a whole. I do not think that it was only Jews that were in error as it seems there were plenty of problems to go around for all at Corinth.

A case could be made that the Jews being better versed in the OT scriptures would have understood what the Apostles were writing in the NT. The Gentiles are seen as coming to Christ from idol worship and really may not have posessed the underlying basics from which the NT church was being formed. In any case it does not alter the relevence of the whole of scripture to them or us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

But then you are trying to paint the gifts as doled out to certain nationalities when Paul didn't do that himself. So call it what you will Roger... that's what you are in fact doing isn't it?