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Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 02:43 AM
During the next week, I will post eleven OT prophecies dealing with identifying the correct time of the arrival of Messiah (all about the first coming of Christ).

There are no prophecies announcing the arrival of Buddah or Mohamed or any other religious leader. Christ is different. There are many prophecies announcing his arrival. I will share 11 of them that deal with announcing the TIME of his arrival, i.e., the awesome timing of the first coming of Christ.

1st Sign: The Bible says that God will send Israel a prophet like Moses (Deu 18:15). Jesus is a prophet like Moses in many aspects. For example, notice how Moses and Jesus had very parallel lives here on earth [OT] (NT). Both Moses and Jesus …

Anointed by God [Num 11:16-17] (Luke 4:18)
Fasted for 40 days and 40 nights [Exo 34:28] (Mat 4:2)
Started a Testament [Pentateuch] (Heb 9:15-20)
Changed the calendar [Exo 12:2]
Gave of his spirit to people [Num 11:25] (John 7:37-39)
Like a god [Exo 4:16] (John 8:24-27)
Healed people [Hos 11:1-3] (Mat 8:16)
Involved in a mixed marriage [Num 12:1] (Rev 7:9)
Tested (temptations in the desert) [Exo 13] (Mat 4:1-6)
# 1 in meekness [Num 12:3] (Mat 11:29)
Did not defend himself [Num 12:3] (Mat 27:14)
Suffered for God’s people [Heb 11:16] (John 3:16)
Fed thousands out of nothing [Num 11:31] (Mat 14:20-21)
Baptized people [1Cor 10:2] (Mat 3:11)
Face shinning with God’s glory [Exo 34:35] (Mat 17:2)
Taken out of Egypt [Exo 12] (Mat 2:15)
When they were born, orders given to kill babies [Exo 1:22] (Mat 2:16)
Saved the people on day of Passover by the blood [Exo 12] (Mat 26:2)
Liberated people from bondage, set them free [Exo 12] (Gal 5:1)
Ministry of miracles [Exo 4:5; Deu 34:10-12] (Acts 2:22)
His prophecies came to pass [Deu 18:18] (Mat 24:2)
Under their ministries, people heard the voice of God speaking from heaven [Exo 20:22] (Mat 3:17; John 12:28)
Both born when Israel was under bondage [Egypt] (Rome)
Both ascended up to God [Exo 19:20] (Acts 1:9)
Both escaped stoning [Exo 17:4] (John 8:59)
Arrival time was prophesied [Exo 12:41] (Dan 9:25; Neh 2; Luke 19:39-44)
Arrival was preceded by 430 years of no Word of God [Gen 15:13-14; Exo 1:6] (history tells us there are 430 years between the closing of the Old Testament and the beginning of the New Testament)


Before the arrival of Moses, there were 430 years of prophetic silence. Between the last verse of Genesis and the first verse of Exodus (when Moses was born) there are 430 years of nothing (from the Word of God). Like Moses, Jesus was born after 430 years of prophetic silence. Between the end of the Old Testament and the beginning of the New Testament there are also 430 years of silence (Gen 15:13; Exo 12:40-41). After realizing that there was nothing added to the OT for 400 years, they should have been suspicious saying: “wait a minute, this is just what happened before Moses arrived on the scene. Maybe Messiah is around the corner." Because he was, yes he was.


Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Note: The affliction started 30 years after they arrived in Egypt. Actually, the Jews arrived in Egypt on Passover day and left on Passover day, 430 years exactly.

Ex 12:40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.
41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

End of sign # 1, 10 more coming. Stand by ... Merry Christmas !!!

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 01:48 PM
2nd Sign: When Messiah was born, shepherds see an angelic host singing during the birth of Jesus and the Scriptures (Luke 2:8-18) say they told all the people around that region. The message from the angels: "Christ (Messiah) the Lord was born today in the city of David!" I bet a lot of Rabbis found out about that.

Luke 2: 8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
16 And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.
17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.
18 And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds.

By the way, all these signs were in preparation for Palm Sunday, the predicted day of arrival of Messiah as King.

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 01:53 PM
3rd Sign: When Moses was born, Pharaoh sent out to kill the male children in Israel. What a coincidence, the male children were killed when Jesus was born too (Exo 1:16 and Mat 2:2-10). What a data point to ignore! I bet people were asking: Why did this happen? The answer: Herod heard some wise men proclaimed Messiah was born, and he believed them, and that's why he tried to kill the coming king by killing their children. For the mothers of those children that was a very difficult data point to forget or ignore. And so it was fulfilled...

Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 01:59 PM
4th Sign: The star of Bethlehem fulfilled Gen 1:14 (signs in the heavens) and the testimony of the wise men made sure they got the point (Mat 2:2-10). This was a sign in the sky to tell the world that the bright and morning star had arrived. Jesus is the bright and morning star according to Rev 22:16. The pharisees asked Jesus for a sign from heaven in Mat 16:1. They did not get another one, they already got their sign from heaven in the star of Bethlehem. By the way, other signs in heaven will occur for the 2nd coming too (Luke 21:11).

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 02:02 PM
5th sign: The witness of Simeon

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 02:07 PM
Sign # 6 The witness of Gamaliel - Apparently, the Jews were aware that the arrival of Messiah was expected in their lifetimes, for there were many prospects taking advantage of the situation just before Jesus arrived, to get to a postition of influence and power (by the seat of Messiah).

Acts 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 04:06 PM
7th Sign: When Jesus was young, the Romans introduced something new. They called it "human rights". They said no one had the right to kill anyone at the mouth of two or three witnesses like it says in the Word of God (the law of Moses). They stated that the only ones that had power over life and death were the Romans and did not allowed the Jews to exercise the law of Moses. The authority and power (represented by the scepter of a king) was taken from the Jews (by the Romans) when Jesus was about 10 years old. When that happened, the prophecy of Gen 49:10 was fulfilled where it says that the scepter (the authority) of Judah would not be removed until Messiah comes first (Shiloh means "rest" and is a title of Messiah). According to the book “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell, the Jewish Talmud recorded that when that happened, the high priest of Israel rent his garments, put ashes on his head and went throughout the streets of Jerusalem crying: "Woe to us, for the scepter departed from Judah and Messiah did not come". They should have believed the data. They should have given God the benefit of the doubt and say to themselves: "Praise God Messiah has arrived, we do not see him but we believe it". Instead, the High Priest went out lamenting that God forgot about His promises to Israel. They should have believed the data, especially after the star of Bethlehem, after the wise men from the east and after the killing of the children took place. We should all trust God with all our heart and lean not in our own understanding.

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 04:07 PM
8th Sign: The ministry of John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies of Elijah, the forerunner of Messiah (Mal 4:5-6). This was explained to the parents of John the Baptist (Luke 1:15-22). He even dressed like Elijah. But when they asked him if he was Elijah, and he answered them saying that he was not, all the data (prophecies fulfilled) went down the drain. They were blinded to the historical data matching prophecy because of what one man (John the Baptist) said. When it comes to the signs of the times, God says: Let no man deceive you (Mat 24:4, Luke 21:8, Mark 13:5, 2Th 2:3)… not even the greatest man born of women (Mat 11:11).

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 04:09 PM
9th Sign: The son of 14

Mt 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

By the way even though the genealogies of Matthew and Luke are different (for very important reason), both are a set of 14, Matthew has 3 sets of 14 and Luke has four sets of 14.

God told Moses:

Exo 2320 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

The one that lead Israel into the promised land was Joshua son of Nun. Nun is the letter N (literally) in the Hebrew alphabet. It says, Joshua son of N. N is the letter # 14 in the English, Spanish, Hebrew and Greek alphabets. Joshua son of 14 in a series.

The name Joshua is the same name Jesus in both Hebrew (Yeshua) and Greek (Iesous). In the Bible, they both have the same name (Joshua and Jesus). It is in the English translation and Spanish translation that we split it and give it different names.

So the Bible was saying Jesus sun of N, Jesus son of a 14 in a series. By the way, Jesus son of David is anothe way of saying Jesus son of 14 because the name David adds up to 14 in Hebrew (4+6+4, DVD)

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 11:28 PM
10th sign – The year of Jubilee. Chances are Jesus started his ministry on year of Jubilee # 30

I say that because on the year of Jubilee, all the captives go free, liberty is proclaimed to the captives and the prisons are opened. All slaves go free too.

Lev 25:10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

Lev 25:40 But as an hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubilee.

When Jesus started his ministry, he started by quoting Isaiah 61 which carries the message of the year of Jubilee.

Is 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

The law of Moses declared that the priests could not preach until they were 30 years old.

Num 4:47 From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that came to do the service of the ministry, and the service of the burden in the tabernacle of the congregation.

That is why Jesus did not preach until he was thirty years old.

Lk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

Lk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

So, it is appropriate to wait until the year of Jubilee # 30 to start preaching and according to history, Jesus started preaching about that time.

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 11:35 PM
Sign # 11 – Jesus’ ministry of miracles and fulfillment of prophecy as evident in history. When JTB asked Jesus if he was the Messiah, Jesus answer was, let history do the talking.

Luke 7: 19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

I was wrong, I do not have 11 signs, I have 12.

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 18th 2010, 11:40 PM
12th Sign: Palm Sunday.

The Bible says that God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge (Hos 4:6). Before God gave Israel the exact day of the arrival of Messiah the king, he told them: Make sure you know and understand this ! When the day came, Jesus said in very modern English: If only you had figured out this prophecy correct, it would have been ok with you. If at least on this day you would have had your act together, things would have been fine. But you blew it. And then he told them in modern English: You blew it, you are all history, because you failed to obtain the knowledge of the timing of my arrival. The prophecy of Daniel 9:25 precisely declared the day of the arrival of Messiah as King and that day came to be Palm Sunday. This is the only prophecy that indicated the precise day of his arrival as King.

In Daniel 9:25 it states that: from the going forth of the commandment to restore Jerusalem until the arrival of Messiah as King it will be 483 years. The commandment is documented in Nehemiah 2. That sets the clock to start counting on 14 March 445 B.C. Four hundred and eighty three years later (7+62) x 7 = 483 yrs = 173,880 days later = Palm Sunday. In John 6:15 the people wanted to make Jesus king but he hid from them because his hour has not yet come. That was the wrong day to start his political career. And Zec 9:9 stated that he had to arrive on a donkey. That is why Jesus made sure a donkey was going to be available that day. When he entered Jerusalem, the whole city cried out that he was king. When the religious leaders wanted that stopped, Jesus answered: If they stop, the stones will cry out. That is because God had prophesied in Zec 9:9 “Rejoice Jerusalem, your king comes to you ridding on a donkey.” It was not optional. They could not help themselves, it had to happen like that. But in spite that on this day everyone is welcoming him as king, he was not impressed with that (God looks at the heart), and he declared judgment over Jerusalem as it is written:

Luke 19:35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
36 And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.
37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; BECAUSE thou knewest not THE TIME of thy visitation.

Palm Sunday was the day to select the king of Israel. Israel should have pulled everyone arriving on a donkey that day to select themselves a king. But on that day, no one was aware of the prophecy. That is the reason why judgment was declared on them. It just so happens, Palm Sunday (the 10th day of the first month) was not only the day of selecting their king, it was also the day of selecting the Passover lamb (Exo 12:3). Jesus is our Passover Lamb and Jesus is our King. Having him as our king and as our Passover lamb gives us free pass to the promised-land in eternity. And what a coincidence !... that Israel crossed the Jordan river to enter the promised land… on Palm Sunday (See Joshua 4:19).

The very next thing that happens after Palm Sunday was Jesus cursing the fig tree. Israel is a type of fig tree (see Hos 9:10) and then the parable of giving the Lord's vineyard to others.

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 20th 2010, 02:03 PM
As with all such proofs, it really helps if you already believe that Jesus is the messiah.

Servant89
Dec 20th 2010, 11:26 PM
As with all such proofs, it really helps if you already believe that Jesus is the messiah.

And unfortunately, I have to admit that you are right concerning 90% of the people. People tend to swim towards the answer they have already. Good point, I see it done often. Let me add this my friend, Daniel 2:21 states that the Lord changes the times and the seasons...

When God gave the Old Testament to Moses, he told him in Exo 12:2 throw away your calendar, we are starting a new one, right now.

When God started the NT, he did it again. Do you think God will enjoy second place in history? Do you think he will let Buddah or Mohamed take the first place in history? I do not think so, I refuse to believe that God will let history be measured relative to the birth of Mohamed. Forget it.

The fact that the whole world measures history relative to the arrival of Messiah is a great hint. Why?

Col 1:18 ... that in all things he (Messiah) might have the preeminence.

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 21st 2010, 01:16 AM
The fact that the whole world measures history relative to the arrival of Messiah is a great hint. Why?

Uh...because there are more Christians than any other religion? Because Europe, which happened to be Christian, was the place the calendar was made?

As I said, these proofs tend to work best with people who already believe...

Servant89
Dec 21st 2010, 12:51 PM
Uh...because there are more Christians than any other religion? Because Europe, which happened to be Christian, was the place the calendar was made?

As I said, these proofs tend to work best with people who already believe...

If we go to the cemetery and I ask you to pick three graves, and as soon as you pick them, I say in the name of Jesus ... LIVE! ... Would you believe Yeshua is the Messiah if the three corpses come to life?

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 21st 2010, 02:09 PM
If we go to the cemetery and I ask you to pick three graves, and as soon as you pick them, I say in the name of Jesus ... LIVE! ... Would you believe Yeshua is the Messiah if the three corpses come to life?

Mmmm no. In Exodus 7 the Egyptian magicians were able to perform miracles too. That didn't make their religion correct either.

divaD
Dec 21st 2010, 02:42 PM
Mmmm no. In Exodus 7 the Egyptian magicians were able to perform miracles too. That didn't make their religion correct either.



In another thread, I was making a point, and I actually had you in mind. You just proved my point for me.

Fenris
Dec 21st 2010, 03:00 PM
In another thread, I was making a point, and I actually had you in mind. You just proved my point for me.

Glad I could be of assistance!

rejoice44
Dec 21st 2010, 09:02 PM
Uh...because there are more Christians than any other religion? Because Europe, which happened to be Christian, was the place the calendar was made?

As I said, these proofs tend to work best with people who already believe...

Fenris if you were God, could you think of a better way to tell the Jews that the Messiah had come? Billions of articles marked every day with the birth of His Son, a reminder to the Jews that they slew the anointed Messiah.

When you combine that with the fact that the Jews have no Temple because the Messiah is their Temple, then one must wonder how dull of hearing they have become.

Fenris
Dec 21st 2010, 09:07 PM
Fenris if you were God, could you think of a better way to tell the Jews that the Messiah had come?
Yeah, I could. An actual fulfillment of messianic prophecy.

rejoice44
Dec 21st 2010, 09:20 PM
Yeah, I could. An actual fulfillment of messianic prophecy.

Matthew 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Fenris
Dec 21st 2010, 09:29 PM
Matthew 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Using a book to prove it's own point. How novel.

Servant89
Dec 21st 2010, 09:51 PM
Yeah, I could. An actual fulfillment of messianic prophecy.

Just work on # 15 and 16 on this list.

Jesus’ Resume

[Old Testament Prophecy] (New Testament Fulfillment)

Messiah’s Lineage
1. Born of a woman [Gen 3:15] (Gal 4:4)
2. Born of a virgin [Isa 7:14] (Mat 1:18,24-25)
3. Seed of Abraham [Gen 22:18; Gen 12:2-3] (Mat 1:1, Gal 3:16)
4. Son of Isaac [Gen 21:12] (Luke 3:23,34)
5. Son of Jacob [Num 24:17] (Luke 3:23,34)
6. From the tribe of Judah [Gen 49:10, Psalm 78:68] (Luke 3:23,34)
7. Family of Jesse [Isa 11:1] (Luke 3:23,31)
8. House of David [Jer 23:5] (Luke 3:23,31; Acts 13:22-23; Rev 22:16)
9. Born at Bethlehem [Micah 5:2] (Mat 2:1-8)

[Old Testament Prophecy] (New Testament Fulfillment)

Messiah’s Divinity
10. Son of God [Psalm 2:7; 110:1; 89:26; 1Chr 17:11-14; 2Sam 7:12-16]
(Mat 3:17; 16:16; Mark 9:7; Rom 1:4; Acts 13:30-33; Mat 22:42-46)
11. His Pre-existence [ Micah 5:2; Isa 9:6-7; Isa 41:4]
(Col 1:17; John 1:1-2; John 8:58)
12. He shall be called Lord [Psalm 110:1] (Luke 2:11; Mat 22:43-45)
13. Shall be called Emmanuel [Isa 7:14] (Mat 1:23)
14. When God enters the Temple [Mal 3:1-3] (Mat 21:12; John 2:13-18)
15. God feeding people on mountains of Israel [Psalm 23:1-2; Eze 34:11-16;
Isa 52:6-7] (Mark 6:39-42)
16. God gives Israel rest on green grass [Psalm 23:1-2] (Mark 6:39-42)
17. Only God can read minds [1King 8:39] (John 6:64; John 2:25)
18. Only God can tell the future [Isa 41:23] (John 13:19; John 14:29)
19. Can not be killed [Ecc 8:8] (John 10:17-18; Luke 23:46)
20. God can not change [Mal 3:6] (Heb 13:18)
21. Receives worship [Deu 26:10; 1King 17:36]
(Mat 2:11; Mat 14:13; Mat 9:18; Rev 19:9-10; Rev 22:9)
22. Called God the Father [Isa 9:6-7] (John 14:9; John 10:30)

[Old Testament Prophecy] (New Testament Fulfillment)

Messiah: A prophet like Moses

23. Fasted for 40 days and 40 nights [Exo 34:28] (Mat 4:2)
24. Started a Testament [Pentateuch] (Heb 9:15-20)
25. Changed the calendar [Exo 12:2]
(Dan 2:21 & Anno Domini (A.D.) or year of our Lord 2004)
26. Born when Israel was under yoke [Egypt] (Rome)
27. Anointed by God [Num 11:16-17] (Luke 4:18)
28. Gave of his spirit to people [Num 11:25] (John 7:37-39)
29. Like a god [Exo 4:16] (John 8:24-27)
30. Healed people [Hos 11:1-3] (Mat 8:16)
31. Involved in a mixed marriage [Num 12:1] (Rev 7:9)
32. Tested (temptations in the desert) [Exo 13] (Mat 4:1-6)
33. # 1 in meekness [Num 12:3] (Mat 11:29)
34. Did not defend himself [Num 12:3] (Mat 27:14)
35. Suffered for God’s people [Heb 11:16] (John 3:16)
36. Fed thousands out of nothing [Num 11:31] (Mat 14:20-21)
37. Baptized people [1Cor 10:2] (Mat 3:11)
38. Face shinning with God’s glory [Exo 34:35] (Mat 17:2)
39. Taken out of Egypt [Exo 12] (Mat 2:15)
40. Arrival time was prophesied [Exo 12:41] (Dan 9:25; Neh 2; Luke 19:39-44)
41. Arrival was preceeded by 430 years of no Word of God [Gen 15:13-14; Exo 1:6] (history tells us there are 430 years between the closing of the Old Testament and the beginning of the New Testament)
42. Whe he arrived, an order was given to kill babies [Exo 1:22] (Mat 2:16)
43. Saved the people on day of Passover by the blood [Exo 12] (Mat 26:2)
44. Liberated people from bondage, set them free [Exo 12] (Gal 5:1)
45. Ministry of miracles [Exo 4:5; Deu 34:10-12] (Acts 2:22)
46. His prophecies came to pass [Deu 18:18] (Mat 24:2)

[Old Testament Prophecy] (New Testament Fulfillment)

Messiah’s ministry
47. Shall be a priest [Psalm 110:4] (Heb 5:5-6)
48. A judge [ Isa 33:22] (John 5:22,30)
49. Special anointing with Holy Spirit [Isa 61:1-2; Isa 11:2; Isa 42:1]
(Mat 3:16-17; Mat 12:17-21; John 1:32)
50. Ministry begins in Galilee [Isa 9:1] (Mat 4:12-17)
51. Ministry of miracles [Isa 35:5-6] (Mat 9:32-35; Mat 11:4-6)
52. Teacher of parables [Psalm 78:2] (Mat 13:34)
53. No promotional gimmicks [Isa 42:1-3] (Mat 8:4; Mark 7:36)
54. Calms the seas [Psalm 89:9; Psalm 107:28-30] (Mat 8:26-27)
55. Healed people by his word [Psalm 107:20] (Mat 8:16)
56. Made intercession for sinners [Isa 53:12] (Luke 23:34)
57. Triumphal entry into Jerusalem [Zec 9:9] (Luke 19:30-44)

Messiah’s sufferings
58. Betrayed by a friend [Psalm 41:9] (Mat 10:4; Mat 26:49-50; John 13:21)
59. Sold for 30 pieces of silver [Zec 11:12] (Mat 26:15; Mat 27:3)
60. Money was thrown in God’s house [Zec 11:13] (Mat 27:5)
61. Forsaken by disciples [Zec 13:7] (Mark 14:50; Mat 26:31)
62. Accused of false witnesses [Psalm 35:11] (Mat 26:59-60)
63. Dumb before accusers [Isa 53:7] (Mat 27:12)
64. Wounded and bruised [Isa 53:5] (Mat 27:26)
65. Smitten and spit on [Isa 50:6; Micah 5:1] (Mat 26:67; Luke 22:63)
66. Mocked [Psalm 22:7-8] (Mat 27:31)
67. Fell under the cross [Psalm 109:24-25] (Luke 23:26; Mat 27:31-32)
68. Hands and feet pierced [Psalm 22:16; Zec 12:10] (Luke 23:33; John 20:25)
69. Crucified with thieves [Isa 53:12] (Mat 27:38; Mark 15:27-28)
70. Rejected by his own people [Isa 53:3; Psalm 69:8; Psalm 118:22]
(John 7:5,48; John 1:11; Mat 21:42-43)
71. Hated without a cause [Psalm 69:4; Isa 49:7] (John 15:25)
72. Friends stood afar off [Psalm 38:11] (Luke 23:49; Mark 15:40)
73. People shook their heads at him [Psalm 109:25; Psalm 22:7] (Mat 27:39)
74. Stared upon him [Psalm 22:17] (Luke 23:35)
75. Garments parted and lots cast [Psalm 22:18] (John 19:23-24)
76. To suffer thirst [Psalm 69:21; Psalm 22:15] (John 19:28)
77. Gall and vinegar offered to him [Psalm 69:21] Mat 27:34; John 19:28-29)
78. His forsaken cry (pointing to Psalm 22 a picture of the cross) [Psalm 22:1]
(Mat 27:46)
79. Committed himself to God [Psalm31:5] (Luke 23:46)
80. Bones were not broken [Psalm 34:20; Exo 12:46] (John 19:33)
81. Heart broken [Psalm 22:14] (John 19:34)
82. His side pierced [Zec 12:10] (John 19:34)
83. Darkness over the land at noon [Amos 8:9] (Mat 27:45)
84. Buried in rich man’s tomb [Isa 53:9] (Mat 27:57-60)
85. Put down from cross before sunset [Deu 21:22-23; Jos 8:29; Jos 10:26-27; Num 9:6-11] (John 19:31)
86. Killed at Passover [Exo 12:1-10] (Mat 26:2; John 13:1)
87. Resurrects during feast of firstfruits on Sunday morning [Lev 23:11]
(1Cor 15:20, 23)
88. Carried wood for his sacrifice [Gen 22:6] (John 19:16-17)
89. Killed outside city gates [Deu 16:5] (John 19:16-17)
90. And many many more!

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 21st 2010, 10:13 PM
Just work on # 15 and 16 on this list.

I could go through this one by one if you wanted. But alomost everything on this list is either trivial or not pertaining to the messiah at all. Read Ezekiel 37, especially from verse 21 on. That's the kind of stuff we're expecting: Ingathering of exiles, Davidic king, rebuilt temple...

Servant89
Dec 21st 2010, 11:21 PM
I could go through this one by one if you wanted. But alomost everything on this list is either trivial or not pertaining to the messiah at all. Read Ezekiel 37, especially from verse 21 on. That's the kind of stuff we're expecting: Ingathering of exiles, Davidic king, rebuilt temple...

Thank you Fenris, that is great feedback. And it is coming, it sure is coming. And when it arrives, this too will happen.

Zech 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Zech 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 22nd 2010, 01:05 AM
Mmmm no. In Exodus 7 the Egyptian magicians were able to perform miracles too. That didn't make their religion correct either.

There are certain miracles that the devil can imitate and trick people into believing lying wonders. But there are other miracles that only God can bring. Even the magicians in Egypt could tell the difference.

Exo 12:17 And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
18 And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.
19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Mt 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

The reason why Jesus is rejected is not for lack of evidence, it is because of other reasons.

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 22nd 2010, 12:56 PM
Thank you Fenris, that is great feedback. And it is coming, it sure is coming. And when it arrives, this too will happen.Excellent!



Zech 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.Not understood as being about the messiah, and in any case verse 9 hasn't happened yet either.


Zech 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
As per the rest of the chapter, this is a false prophet. Do we really want to apply this to Jesus?

Servant89
Dec 22nd 2010, 12:57 PM
Can the devil resurrect any 3 people that I point to him in the cemetery? Can a created being do that? Does he have power over death and decomposing bodies? Can he create new bodies with the words of his mouth?

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 22nd 2010, 12:59 PM
Excellent!


Not understood as being about the messiah, and in any case verse 9 hasn't happened yet either.
As per the rest of the chapter, this is a false prophet. Do we really want to apply this to Jesus?

You are right, 9 has not happened yet. I did not know it was about a false prophet, I will have to check that out, thanks my friend, thank you!

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 22nd 2010, 12:59 PM
There are certain miracles that the devil can imitate and trick people into believing lying wonders. But there are other miracles that only God can bring. Even the magicians in Egypt could tell the difference.
And how can we tell the difference?


The reason why Jesus is rejected is not for lack of evidence, it is because of other reasons.

And what would those be...?

Fenris
Dec 22nd 2010, 01:44 PM
Can the devil resurrect any 3 people that I point to him in the cemetery? Can a created being do that? Does he have power over death and decomposing bodies? Can he create new bodies with the words of his mouth?

How do we know these things happened? They are only recorded in a book written by people who believed a certain thing.

John146
Dec 22nd 2010, 02:38 PM
In another thread, I was making a point, and I actually had you in mind. You just proved my point for me.He proved the point Jesus made here:

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

John146
Dec 22nd 2010, 02:39 PM
How do we know these things happened? They are only recorded in a book written by people who believed a certain thing.Isn't that the case for the OT as well? Despite that, you still believe what is written in the OT. So, what keeps you from believing what is written in the NT?

Servant89
Dec 22nd 2010, 03:59 PM
I love talking to Fenris. Happy Hannukah / holidays, Fenris.

I pray the Mighty One of Jacob, the Holy One of Israel will bless you and your family this holiday season big time.

Hugs to you my friend.

Shalom

divaD
Dec 22nd 2010, 05:05 PM
If we go to the cemetery and I ask you to pick three graves, and as soon as you pick them, I say in the name of Jesus ... LIVE! ... Would you believe Yeshua is the Messiah if the three corpses come to life?

Shalom



You know, I've heard you mention this a cpl of times now. So I just have to ask. Are you simply trying to make a point, which I get BTW, or do you really think you can raise the dead also? Just curious. :)

Servant89
Dec 22nd 2010, 06:07 PM
You know, I've heard you mention this a cpl of times now. So I just have to ask. Are you simply trying to make a point, which I get BTW, or do you really think you can raise the dead also? Just curious. :)

I have not raised the dead ever. But I knew that Fenris will not believe if God raises the dead in the name of Jesus. If he had told me he would believe, then the problem would be lack of evidence and through prayer I am not afraid to ask the Lord for anything. The Lord will resurrect the dead if Fenris turns to someone like the Apostle Paul. If Fenris will not change significantly, the Lord will not do anything. The Lord left heaven to meet the Apostle Paul, but it was because he saw how Paul would change if he had an encounter of the best kind. Read post # 2 in my testimony, see Testrimonies, under Honeymoon prayer. Similar situation and the Lord did show up.

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 22nd 2010, 06:17 PM
And how can we tell the difference?

In the OT, God stopped the sun for Joshua. God also sent fire from heaven down to the earth during the days of Elijah. Those were clearly acts of God.

The false prophet in Rev 13:13 and 2The 2:8-12 will do LYING WONDERS like sending fire from heaven towards the earth. Fatima did that but it was a lying wonder, only the 70,000 people that showed up in Fatima saw it, no one else on the planet saw it. Clearly a lie. That virgin also sent them to worship her on that mountain. That virgin that fulfilled Rev 13:13, showed up 6 times but only day # 13 of the month. That virgin showed up for the first time on May 13. May is the 5th month, day 13. The 5th book Deuteronomy chapter 13 tells us what to do in this case.

Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

I am preparing the way for you to answer... go ahead...


And what would those be...?

It is the point of view from which you see things, like you said, it will help if you already believe in Jesus. You expect Messiah to arrive fuflilling everything, not 10%, right?

Christians expect antichrist to arrive fulfilling everything, not 10% just like you. We are all on the same boat.

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 22nd 2010, 06:47 PM
Isn't that the case for the OT as well? Why yes, it is.


Despite that, you still believe what is written in the OT. So, what keeps you from believing what is written in the NT?
What keeps you from believing what was written in the Koran?

Fenris
Dec 22nd 2010, 06:48 PM
I love talking to Fenris. Happy Hannukah / holidays, Fenris.

I pray the Mighty One of Jacob, the Holy One of Israel will bless you and your family this holiday season big time.

Hugs to you my friend.

Shalom

God bless, have a very merry Christmas. I simply love your avatar!

Servant89
Dec 22nd 2010, 08:47 PM
What keeps you from believing what was written in the Koran?

Ooooh,ooooh, oooh, can I answer that? Pleeeeease?

There are two things that I look into the so called holy scriptures, When God sends his word, he sends it with his two business cards, proof that the word came from God.

#1. Miracles (Exo 4:1-9; Acts 2:22; John 10:37-38)

#2. Fulfilled prophecies (Deu 18:21-22; John 13:19; John 14:29; Isa 41:23)

The OT has both of them, The NT has both of them, the Koran has none.

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 22nd 2010, 09:16 PM
The NT has both of them
According to Christians, you mean.

Servant89
Dec 22nd 2010, 10:28 PM
According to Christians, you mean.

Nope, not according to Christians. According to history. What year is it?

Jesus said (and the NT was closed when this came to pass)... you are history, and your children within you too, and 40 years later it came to pass...

Lk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

And it was so.

The disciples were all cowards, they all ran from Christ when he was arrested, and they all died martyrs for his name as history records. Seeing him resurrected changed them from cowards to martyrs.

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 22nd 2010, 11:00 PM
Lk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Shrug. I fail to see the significance.

Servant89
Dec 22nd 2010, 11:43 PM
Shrug. I fail to see the significance.

Unfortunately, I can not help you. I believe God blinded you so I could see. I am glad I see, but I refuse to belittle you for the trade off. I am an alien branch grafted into the true olive three (Israel). You sustain me Fenris. I can not survive without the root of Israel sustaining me. Rom 11:17-18.

But there is hope Fenris, you can see !!!!

2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2 Cor 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2 Cor 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned.

But you have to give your heart to the one spoken of in Isa 53.

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 22nd 2010, 11:44 PM
But you have to give your heart to the one spoken of in Isa 53.

The Jewish people?

rejoice44
Dec 23rd 2010, 02:50 AM
The Jewish people?

Which is better, to give your heart to the servant, or the Son?

Servant89
Dec 23rd 2010, 02:31 PM
The gospel message from the OT

Ps 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Ps 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

God is not pleased on that system of sacrifices to take away our sin. His mind was on a more perfect plan.

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide HIMSELF a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Only the Creator is worth more than all Creation put together. To put an end to a system that God never liked, God decided to take care of business himself. Only by offering himself as a sacrifice, could the Creator pay for the sins of the whole world once for all. All we need to do to get in, is believe. God loves you to death Fenris, literally.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Shalom

Firstfruits
Dec 23rd 2010, 05:32 PM
Uh...because there are more Christians than any other religion? Because Europe, which happened to be Christian, was the place the calendar was made?

As I said, these proofs tend to work best with people who already believe...

There were believers of the OT scriptures concerning the Messiah before there were christians.

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 24th 2010, 11:20 AM
Which is better, to give your heart to the servant, or the Son?
Uhhh I don't really understand the question.

Fenris
Dec 24th 2010, 11:21 AM
God loves you to death Fenris, literally.

Don't see it as necessary. Why can't God forgive without a sacrifice?

Fenris
Dec 24th 2010, 11:22 AM
There were believers of the OT scriptures concerning the Messiah before there were christians.

Ah. But what did they believe?

divaD
Dec 24th 2010, 04:45 PM
Don't see it as necessary. Why can't God forgive without a sacrifice?




You have far greater insight into the OT than I could possibly hope to have. But didn't sacrifices and forgiveness sometimes go hand in hand? What was that all about, the sacrificings, in relation to the forgiveness?

Fenris
Dec 24th 2010, 04:52 PM
Why can't God forgive without sacrifice?

rejoice44
Dec 24th 2010, 06:21 PM
Uhhh I don't really understand the question.

Israel is the servant, Jesus Christ is the Son. You choose to close your eyes to the Son.

rejoice44
Dec 24th 2010, 06:22 PM
Why can't God forgive without sacrifice?

Perfect justice does not allow for sin to go unpunished. God is just.

Fenris
Dec 24th 2010, 06:23 PM
Israel is the servant, Jesus Christ is the Son. You choose to close your eyes to the Son.
There is no "son" in Isaiah 53, which is where this all began.

Fenris
Dec 24th 2010, 06:24 PM
Perfect justice does not allow for sin to go unpunished. God is just.
So in the bible, sacrifice is really about punishing an animal?

rejoice44
Dec 24th 2010, 06:56 PM
There is no "son" in Isaiah 53, which is where this all began.

Who is he then that grows up as a tender plant, and has no beauty that we should desire him? Isn't that why you rejected him, he doesn't have the beauty you want to see?

Who is it that is despised and rejected by you? Who was it that was wounded for your transgressions? Who has the Lord laid the iniquity of all of us on? Who was it that made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich. Who had no deceit in his mouth? Who did it please the Lord to bruise? Whose soul was made an offering for sin? Who was the intercessor for the sinners?

rejoice44
Dec 24th 2010, 06:58 PM
So in the bible, sacrifice is really about punishing an animal?

No sacrifice is about the arm of the Lord that bears our iniquity in Isaiah 53.

Servant89
Dec 25th 2010, 05:52 AM
Why can't God forgive without sacrifice?

Fenris, Rejoice44 gave you the right answer.

There are two concepts you need to understand, first that God is perfect and second his monetary system. You know God is perfect. That means he has every attribute that is good and has none bad. Because he is perfect, that means he is merciful. But besides being merciful, he is also Just. If God were not just, he would not be perfect. If someone steals $1,000 from me and God forgives him that is mercy, but if no one returns my money, that is an injustice. God is both merciful and just, he has a good accounting system and it will be in balance at the end.

The other concept you need to understand is God’s monetary system. What would happen if I go to the bank with a live rabbit and I give it to the teller and I say to her: "Deposit this in my account?" What would happen? They will not take it. Why? They do not take animals, only money, and only American money, they do not take Mexican money there, right? God is like that. When it comes to God’s system of debts and payments, there is only one thing that God takes and that is blood (Lev 17:11 and Heb 9:22).

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

That is the penalty for sin, death. But God is merciful. He does not want us to die in eternity. For that reason he provided a system of sacrifices to pay for our sins.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

But that Old System does not work. The blood of bulls covered the sin but it did not remove it.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

1 Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That old system worked as a band aid, it covered it, but it did not take it away. For the sacrifice to be able to take away the sin, it has to be far more valuable and overwhelming, it took the life of the Creator to pay for the sins of all creation because the Creator is worth more than all creation put together.

For those that believe that God is that good, that he actually loves us to death, to them he gave them power to become the sons of God and have eternal life. But it all hangs from the fact that besides being merciful, God is also just and someone must make the payment for our sins to keep the justice part of a perfect God in balance. And that is how Jesus saves.

I can not explain to you what it feels to be drunk, I need to give you an alcoholic beverage to drink. And you need to drink it. Salvation is like that. You will understand AFTER you surrender.

2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Shalom

ProjectPeter
Dec 26th 2010, 01:18 AM
Hate to be the bearer of the feet that kick the proverbial sacred doctrinal cow... (okay not really... I sort of enjoy it actually).... but God can forgive whom God forgives with or without a sacrifice. Scriptural evidence of that.


2 Samuel 12:1 *Then the LORD sent Nathan to David. And he came to him, and said, "There were two men in one city, the one rich and the other poor.
2 *"The rich man had a great many flocks and herds.
3 *"But the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb Which he bought and nourished; And it grew up together with him and his children. It would eat of his bread and drink of his cup and lie in his bosom, And was like a daughter to him.
4 *"Now a traveler came to the rich man, And he was unwilling to take from his own flock or his own herd, To prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him; Rather he took the poor man's ewe lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him."
5 *Then David's anger burned greatly against the man, and he said to Nathan, "As the LORD lives, surely the man who has done this deserves to die.
6 *"And he must make restitution for the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing and had no compassion."
7 *¶Nathan then said to David, "You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel, `It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul.
8 *`I also gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these!
9 *`Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon.
10 *`Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.´
11 *"Thus says the LORD, `Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your companion, and he shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.
12 *`Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.´"
13 *Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.


Now you have 1 and only 1 option. David offerered no sacrifice. There wasn't a sacrifice according to Law that could even atone for the sin he committed. The only thing the law allowed for murder and adultery was death. The only option you have if you're going to say sacrifice is REQUIRED is to say the baby was the sacrifice because the baby died. If you go that route though... it is going to be that heresy thing. God requires no baby for sacrifice.

There are other passages too which clearly show God isn't nearly as picky about the sacrifice thing that a lot of folks think... even many Jews. God didn't desire sacrifice ... he wanted simply for folks to obey Him. Read Isaiah 1 for example and you'll see where God tells them... don't even bring me your bulls and goats. He was weary of all that nonsense. He wanted them to do as He said... period.

Anyway... sacrifice IS NOT required for God's forgiveness. That's shown in many places of Scripture for those that want to see and are willing to actually study it out instead of just go with the official dogma that many have today. Not always a bad thing to kick the sacred doctrinal cow you know. :)

rejoice44
Dec 26th 2010, 03:12 AM
Now you have 1 and only 1 option. David offerered no sacrifice. There wasn't a sacrifice according to Law that could even atone for the sin he committed. The only thing the law allowed for murder and adultery was death. The only option you have if you're going to say sacrifice is REQUIRED is to say the baby was the sacrifice because the baby died. If you go that route though... it is going to be that heresy thing. God requires no baby for sacrifice.

There are other passages too which clearly show God isn't nearly as picky about the sacrifice thing that a lot of folks think... even many Jews. God didn't desire sacrifice ... he wanted simply for folks to obey Him. Read Isaiah 1 for example and you'll see where God tells them... don't even bring me your bulls and goats. He was weary of all that nonsense. He wanted them to do as He said... period.

Anyway... sacrifice IS NOT required for God's forgiveness. That's shown in many places of Scripture for those that want to see and are willing to actually study it out instead of just go with the official dogma that many have today. Not always a bad thing to kick the sacred doctrinal cow you know. :)

David wasn't sinless, there was no way he could make a sacrifice that would be acceptable to God, and David knew it. Only a sinless God could make atonement for David, by becoming that sacrifice that would carry David's sins away. The sacrifical Lamb.

David said, "Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin."

So I offer that there was a sacrifice required, and it was Jesus Christ.

Isn't this the basic foundation of our faith?

ProjectPeter
Dec 26th 2010, 04:18 AM
David wasn't sinless, there was no way he could make a sacrifice that would be acceptable to God, and David knew it. Only a sinless God could make atonement for David, by becoming that sacrifice that would carry David's sins away. The sacrifical Lamb.

David said, "Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin."

So I offer that there was a sacrifice required, and it was Jesus Christ.

Isn't this the basic foundation of our faith?

That wasn't the case in the Old Testament though and that's the point you guys are talking about and which Fenris questioned. Blood was not required for David's sin because there was no blood that could fix that sin. Christ was yet to come and that many years later. David answered this question in the very Psalm you are speaking of.

Psalms 51:16 *For Thou dost not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; Thou art not pleased with burnt offering.
17 *The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.

That is the sacrifice God required and would not despise. When that was given... David could offer a sacrifice of bulls that God would be pleased with.

18 *¶By Thy favor do good to Zion; Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 *Then Thou wilt delight in righteous sacrifices, In burnt offering and whole burnt offering; Then young bulls will be offered on Thine altar.

Much is very horribly misunderstood about the sacrifice and what all that meant to God. The prophets spoke of it often but folks tend to get stuck in the Mosaic Law aspect of it and thus a lot of doctrine comes out that isn't very accurate.

rejoice44
Dec 26th 2010, 04:47 AM
That wasn't the case in the Old Testament though and that's the point you guys are talking about and which Fenris questioned. Blood was not required for David's sin because there was no blood that could fix that sin. Christ was yet to come and that many years later. David answered this question in the very Psalm you are speaking of.

Psalms 51:16 *For Thou dost not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; Thou art not pleased with burnt offering.
17 *The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.

That is the sacrifice God required and would not despise. When that was given... David could offer a sacrifice of bulls that God would be pleased with.

18 *¶By Thy favor do good to Zion; Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 *Then Thou wilt delight in righteous sacrifices, In burnt offering and whole burnt offering; Then young bulls will be offered on Thine altar.

Much is very horribly misunderstood about the sacrifice and what all that meant to God. The prophets spoke of it often but folks tend to get stuck in the Mosaic Law aspect of it and thus a lot of doctrine comes out that isn't very accurate.

We differ greatly on this issue and there are many on both sides.

I believe the Word was always there, and that any man who sought God with a meek and contrite spirit would find Him, and be born again of a new spirit. I believe that God put to their account as if it had already happened, that Jesus had been offerred up. What does it say, slain from the foundation of the world?

One point is, that if animal sacrifice was ever meant to save anyone, why was it not instituted from the time of Jacob? And then also how were they saved that were born from the time between Jacob and Moses?

As I understand the scripture, the animal sacrifice was given as a correction for Israel's rejection of the Manna from heaven. (Jeremiah 7:21-27) It was a correction for disobedience.

Do you then believe that the Old Testament Saints were saved by works?

ProjectPeter
Dec 26th 2010, 04:51 AM
We differ greatly on this issue and there are many on both sides.

I believe the Word was always there, and that any man who sought God with a meek and contrite spirit would find Him, and be born again of a new spirit. I believe that God put to their account as if it had already happened, that Jesus had been offerred up. What does it say, slain from the foundation of the world?

One point is, that if animal sacrifice was ever meant to save anyone, why was it not instituted from the time of Jacob? And then also how were they saved that were born from the time between Jacob and Moses?

As I understand the scripture, the animal sacrifice was given as a correction for Israel's rejection of the Manna from heaven. (Jeremiah 7:21-27) It was a correction for disobedience.

Do you then believe that the Old Testament Saints were saved by works?

They were justified by faith... no different then than now. And you obviously misunderstand my point if you think that I am saying animal sacrifice was meant to save someone. That's millions of miles away from what I am saying. ;)

If animal sacrifice could save anyone then David would have killed those thousand bulls and goats and that would have been enough blood for him and the entire Israeli Army. There was no sacrifice that could save David save the sacrifice he spoke of in that passage of Psalm 51 that I posted. Had nothing to do with animal sacrifice.

rejoice44
Dec 26th 2010, 12:46 PM
They were justified by faith... no different then than now. And you obviously misunderstand my point if you think that I am saying animal sacrifice was meant to save someone. That's millions of miles away from what I am saying. ;)

If animal sacrifice could save anyone then David would have killed those thousand bulls and goats and that would have been enough blood for him and the entire Israeli Army. There was no sacrifice that could save David save the sacrifice he spoke of in that passage of Psalm 51 that I posted. Had nothing to do with animal sacrifice.

Then I don't understand. Was Jesus sacrificed for only those that died after Jesus was manifested, and if so, why did Jesus need to be sacrificed at all, if those that died before he was manifested did not need the blood of Jesus?

Servant89
Dec 26th 2010, 01:38 PM
Then I don't understand. Was Jesus sacrificed for only those that died after Jesus was manifested, and if so, why did Jesus need to be sacrificed at all, if those that died before he was manifested did not need the blood of Jesus?

AMEN brother. Perhaps he will explain to us why Jesus volunteered to the cross.

I guess Jesus did not have to die after all. God does not have to keep a perfect balance in justice after all. A man just told me that God can take care of the sins of the world without shedding of blood. Can someone please tell Jesus that. I don't think he knows. Fenris, forget what I said. Listen to them, they know better than anyone.

Heb 9:22 ... and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Fenris, forget what I said. I am terrible at figuring out doctrine, I can not be trusted Fenris !!!!!

Listen to the word of God, the OT should do it (Lev 17:11).

Shalom

divaD
Dec 26th 2010, 03:23 PM
I believe that God put to their account as if it had already happened, that Jesus had been offerred up. What does it say, slain from the foundation of the world?


I like how you understand this, and the point it is making.

Servant89
Dec 26th 2010, 06:56 PM
I like how you understand this, and the point it is making.

I like it too !!! Merry Christmas to me ! Thank you Jesus.

Guys. I love you. Thanks for putting up with my stench...

I love you JESUS !!!

I love Fenris and the entire nation of Israel too.

Shalom

P.S. Was it possible for God to forgive us without a sacrifice....? Was it?

Mt 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mt 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

The answer back? Nope, it is not possible to save that talking donkey without that sacrifice, gotta do it Son, gatta do it.

ProjectPeter
Dec 26th 2010, 10:37 PM
Then I don't understand. Was Jesus sacrificed for only those that died after Jesus was manifested, and if so, why did Jesus need to be sacrificed at all, if those that died before he was manifested did not need the blood of Jesus?

You quoted the Psalm... not I. What does the Psalm say was the sacrifice that God wanted? Was David incorrect in what he said there... somehow I doubt that. If David answered what kind of sacrifice that God wanted... why are we trying to make it something other than what he said? You can go on all you want to a Jew about Christ and the "looking forward to the cross" message but that's just Christian'ese and that makes no sense to them. Especially when David answered it. To try and make it something else is to take the Psalm out of context and doesn't help at all in showing them Christ.

Servant89
Dec 27th 2010, 12:48 AM
You quoted the Psalm... not I. What does the Psalm say was the sacrifice that God wanted? Was David incorrect in what he said there... somehow I doubt that. If David answered what kind of sacrifice that God wanted... why are we trying to make it something other than what he said? You can go on all you want to a Jew about Christ and the "looking forward to the cross" message but that's just Christian'ese and that makes no sense to them. Especially when David answered it. To try and make it something else is to take the Psalm out of context and doesn't help at all in showing them Christ.

But we are trying to show Fenris Christ, he asked why can't God forgive without a sacrifice? He asked that as a response to my statement that only the Creator is worth more than the Creation and only him can take care of the sins of the whole world. We are trying to show him the Christ we know. It will be better if we all present a common front.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

We are trying to show him the plan of God and the reason for the cross. If you disagree with our presentation, at least, instead of proving us wrong, why don't you answer Fenris' question about why do we need a Creator to pay for the sins of the whole world. That will be more beneficial, don't you think?

Shalom (Lord bless Project Peter wall to wall this week)

P.S. Fenris, wherever you are, I send you a Donkey hug.

ProjectPeter
Dec 27th 2010, 12:58 AM
But we are trying to show Fenris Christ, he asked why can't God forgive without a sacrifice? He asked that as a response to my statement that only the Creator is worth more than the Creation and only him can take care of the sins of the whole world. We are trying to show him the Christ we know. It will be better if we all present a common front.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

We are trying to show him the plan of God and the reason for the cross. If you disagree with our presentation, at least, instead of proving us wrong, why don't you answer Fenris' question about why do we need a Creator to pay for the sins of the whole world. That will be more beneficial, don't you think?

Shalom (Lord bless Project Peter wall to wall this week)

P.S. Fenris, wherever you are, I send you a Donkey hug.

Oh I will and do. He knows my motive rest assured. ;) Just understand that not every question can simply be answered with Jesus is the reason! While I hear ya there... a Jew ain't going to.

His question needed to be answered rightly first. To say it was needed... that is all great, well, and good. But it is wrong too. Wrong is wrong and the error needed pointed out! Wouldn't want to continue in error I assume... so I took that opportunity to show what I showed. ;)

Servant89
Dec 27th 2010, 01:01 AM
Oh I will and do. He knows my motive rest assured. ;) Just understand that not every question can simply be answered with Jesus is the reason! While I hear ya there... a Jew ain't going to.

His question needed to be answered rightly first. To say it was needed... that is all great, well, and good. But it is wrong too. Wrong is wrong and the error needed pointed out! Wouldn't want to continue in error I assume... so I took that opportunity to show what I showed. ;)

Ok, I am in error. Now what? Are you going to explain to him why Jesus had to go to the cross?

And what about .... a Jew wont hear it? He might. I believe he will.

Shalom

rejoice44
Dec 27th 2010, 01:20 AM
Don't see it as necessary. Why can't God forgive without a sacrifice?

You asked why can’t God forgive without a sacrifice? The answer is, God does forgive without anyone making a sacrifice, because it is God that makes the sacrifice. God doesn’t require a sacrifice from you that will take away sin. The Passover Lamb is a picture of the sacrifice that God provides.

God gave you a picture of this sacrifice in the Passover.

The Passover is a time of celebration, a feast unto the Lord, because there is salvation. Any Jew who did not partake of it would bear his sin. The Lamb of God came to bear our sins. Numbers 9:13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin. Notice that it says offering of the Lord

The unleavened bread is a picture of the cleansing of Jesus Christ through our eating of his body, which is the Lamb that was to be completely eaten.


Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. This was the Passover celebration that Jesus partook of with his disciples. “The Last Supper” Mark 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. 1Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Jesus Christ is that lamb that had to be completely eaten. Many of his disciples did not understand this, for they thought it was a hard saying.

This is a picture of the day of the Lord when he shall come for his people, and they are to be without sin. And they will be if they have partaken of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Exodus 12:11 And thus shall you eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's passover.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

The Jews were to be ready the night of the Passover, for they were heading for the Promised Land. This is a picture of the resurrection, when all that is God’s will go into his Kingdom.

At the Passover the destroyer came, and left those alive that were covered by the blood of the lamb over the doorpost, but those that were not covered by the blood of the Lamb were taken.

Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token on the houses where you are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The destroyer came for the tares, but the Jews were escorted safely through the water on their path to the Promised Land.

Also you have to consider Abraham, and the Lamb that God provided to save his son.

Servant89
Dec 27th 2010, 01:26 AM
You asked why can’t God forgive without a sacrifice? The answer is, God does forgive without anyone making a sacrifice, because it is God that makes the sacrifice. God doesn’t require a sacrifice from you that will take away sin. The Passover Lamb is a picture of the sacrifice that God provides.

God gave you a picture of this sacrifice in the Passover.

The Passover is a time of celebration, a feast unto the Lord, because there is salvation. Any Jew who did not partake of it would bear his sin. The Lamb of God came to bear our sins. Numbers 9:13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin. Notice that it says offering of the Lord

The unleavened bread is a picture of the cleansing of Jesus Christ through our eating of his body, which is the Lamb that was to be completely eaten.


Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. This was the Passover celebration that Jesus partook of with his disciples. “The Last Supper” Mark 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. 1Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Jesus Christ is that lamb that had to be completely eaten. Many of his disciples did not understand this, for they thought it was a hard saying.

This is a picture of the day of the Lord when he shall come for his people, and they are to be without sin. And they will be if they have partaken of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 1:29 And thus shall you eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's passover.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I am doing the Donkey dance now. Great answer !!!!

Shalom

ProjectPeter
Dec 27th 2010, 02:30 AM
Ok, I am in error. Now what? Are you going to explain to him why Jesus had to go to the cross?

And what about .... a Jew wont hear it? He might. I believe he will.

ShalomNot in this particular thread based just on the post I replied to. It would simply be an exercise in futility. As Fenris will surely testify... I pick my targets. This one isn't the right target to aim at. ;)

ProjectPeter
Dec 27th 2010, 02:32 AM
You asked why can’t God forgive without a sacrifice? The answer is, God does forgive without anyone making a sacrifice, because it is God that makes the sacrifice. God doesn’t require a sacrifice from you that will take away sin. The Passover Lamb is a picture of the sacrifice that God provides.

God gave you a picture of this sacrifice in the Passover.

The Passover is a time of celebration, a feast unto the Lord, because there is salvation. Any Jew who did not partake of it would bear his sin. The Lamb of God came to bear our sins. Numbers 9:13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin. Notice that it says offering of the Lord

The unleavened bread is a picture of the cleansing of Jesus Christ through our eating of his body, which is the Lamb that was to be completely eaten.


Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. This was the Passover celebration that Jesus partook of with his disciples. “The Last Supper” Mark 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. 1Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Jesus Christ is that lamb that had to be completely eaten. Many of his disciples did not understand this, for they thought it was a hard saying.

This is a picture of the day of the Lord when he shall come for his people, and they are to be without sin. And they will be if they have partaken of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 1:29 And thus shall you eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's passover.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

The Jews were to be ready the night of the Passover, for they were heading for the Promised Land. This is a picture of the resurrection, when all that is God’s will go into his Kingdom.

At the Passover the destroyer came, and left those alive that were covered by the blood of the lamb over the doorpost, but those that were not covered by the blood of the Lamb were taken.

Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token on the houses where you are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The destroyer came for the tares, but the Jews were escorted safely through the water on their path to the Promised Land.

Also you have to consider Abraham, and the Lamb that God provided to save his son.


Passover... a much greater target to shoot at. The ram in the bush... another good target. Very good. :)

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 02:29 PM
Who is he then that grows up as a tender plant, and has no beauty that we should desire him? Isn't that why you rejected him, he doesn't have the beauty you want to see?

Who is it that is despised and rejected by you? Who was it that was wounded for your transgressions? Who has the Lord laid the iniquity of all of us on? Who was it that made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich. Who had no deceit in his mouth? Who did it please the Lord to bruise? Whose soul was made an offering for sin? Who was the intercessor for the sinners?As I have explained several times, the servant in Isaiah 53 is understood as the entire Jewish people.

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 02:30 PM
Fenris, Rejoice44 gave you the right answer.

I don't get it.

The bible tells us multiple times that sacrifice is not necessary.

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 02:31 PM
You asked why can’t God forgive without a sacrifice? The answer is, God does forgive without anyone making a sacrifice, because it is God that makes the sacrifice.

Ok, so God can't forgive without sacrifice.

Why not?

Servant89
Dec 27th 2010, 03:26 PM
Ok, so God can't forgive without sacrifice.

Why not?

Thank you Fenris, Yeah, why not, I want to hear this too.

Shalom

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 03:31 PM
As I have explained several times, the servant in Isaiah 53 is understood as the entire Jewish people.

Is the following scripture about the Messiah?

Is 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Is 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be Heard in the street.

Is 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

Is 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 03:38 PM
Is the following scripture about the Messiah?

Sigh. Must every thread come down to the same arguments, over and over and over again? I really grow tired of this.

Are the following verses in Isaiah about the Jewish people?

* Chapter 41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"
* Chapter 44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen. ... 21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.
* Chapter 45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name;
* Chapter 48:20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."
* Chapter 49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

divaD
Dec 27th 2010, 03:47 PM
As I have explained several times, the servant in Isaiah 53 is understood as the entire Jewish people.



Ok then...who would be the 'our' and the 'we' etc, in that chapter, since the 'our' and the 'we' would be different from the servant?


Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

so on and so on...

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 03:51 PM
Sigh. Must every thread come down to the same arguments, over and over and over again? I really grow tired of this.

Are the following verses in Isaiah about the Jewish people?

* Chapter 41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"
* Chapter 44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen. ... 21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.
* Chapter 45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name;
* Chapter 48:20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."
* Chapter 49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

The scriptures you have given are about the Jewish people, but is the following scripture about the messiah?

Is 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Is 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be Heard in the street.

Is 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

Is 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 03:53 PM
Ok then...who would be the 'our' and the 'we' etc, in that chapter, since the 'our' and the 'we' would be different from the servant?

Chapter 53 actually begins at 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

52 then follows, As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

And then So shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.


We then begin chapter 53 Who would have believed our report. Who is the speaker here? The startled nations and the kings who shut their mouths. Basically, it's the nations of the world.

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 03:54 PM
The scriptures you have given are about the Jewish people, but is the following scripture about the messiah?

It's unclear; it could also be the entirety of the Jewish people. Just as 53 is understood.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 04:04 PM
Chapter 53 actually begins at 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

52 then follows, As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

And then So shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.


We then begin chapter 53 Who would have believed our report. Who is the speaker here? The startled nations and the kings who shut their mouths. Basically, it's the nations of the world.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Is 12:4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.

Is 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 04:06 PM
I fail to see what that has to do with my post.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 04:10 PM
I fail to see what that has to do with my post.

You said that Isaiah 53 starts here: Chapter 53 actually begins at 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

That is why I posted the scriptures.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Is 12:4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.

Is 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 04:12 PM
You said that Isaiah 53 starts here: Chapter 53 actually begins at 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

That is why I posted the scriptures.
Yes obviously you believe 53 is about Jesus. How does it address what I posted though?

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 04:16 PM
Yes obviously you believe 53 is about Jesus. How does it address what I posted though?

The scriptures were not posted because of Isaiah 53 but because of Isaiah 52:13 concering being exalted.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Is 12:4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.

Is 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 04:27 PM
The scriptures were not posted because of Isaiah 53 but because of Isaiah 52:13 concering being exalted.
Uhhh yeah but you've competely ignored my post.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 04:31 PM
It's unclear; it could also be the entirety of the Jewish people. Just as 53 is understood.

If as you say it is unclear would you say it must be one or the other?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 04:42 PM
Chapter 53 actually begins at 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

52 then follows, As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

And then So shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.


We then begin chapter 53 Who would have believed our report. Who is the speaker here? The startled nations and the kings who shut their mouths. Basically, it's the nations of the world.

Would you say that the following is Israel or the messiah, with regards to Isaiah 52?

Who is this report about?

Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Ps 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Ps 22:8 He trusted on tHe LORD that He would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing He delighted in him.

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 04:46 PM
If as you say it is unclear would you say it must be one or the other?

That too is unclear...

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 04:46 PM
Would you say that the following is Israel or the messiah, with regards to Isaiah 52?

Who is this report about?

Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Ps 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Ps 22:8 He trusted on tHe LORD that He would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing He delighted in him.

Psalm 22 is about king David.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 04:55 PM
Psalm 22 is about king David.

Where did this happen to king David?

Mt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if He will have him: for He said, I am tHe Son of God.

Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Ps 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Ps 22:8 He trusted on tHe LORD that He would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing He delighted in him

Firstfruits

divaD
Dec 27th 2010, 04:58 PM
Chapter 53 actually begins at 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

52 then follows, As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

And then So shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.


We then begin chapter 53 Who would have believed our report. Who is the speaker here? The startled nations and the kings who shut their mouths. Basically, it's the nations of the world.




Isaiah 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

IMO, this identifies all the 'we' and 'our' in ch 53.


Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.


This indentifies the 'ye' of verse 3.


Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


The 'our' and 'we' are the same 'ye' in Isaiah 52:3. And since the NT tells us there is neither Jew nor Greek, then that tells us He was wounded for all of us. The servant would be Jesus Christ, not the Jewish people as a whole. While it is true that the OT shows the servant to be all the Jewish people, like you showed in a prev post, in this particular context tho, according to the NT, the servant would be God's Son, Jesus christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 05:00 PM
Where did this happen to king David?

King David did not have such an easy life, you know. He probably composed Psalm 22 while fleeing from king Saul and his troops.

Anyway it makes little sense for Jesus aka God to be calling for help from God, as this psalm does.

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 05:04 PM
Isaiah 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

IMO, this identifies all the 'we' and 'our' in ch 53.

Well that's your opinion. Jews see it otherwise.

And if you're going to read the book straight through from chapter 52 to chapter 54, chapter 53 doesn't fit. 52 and 54 are about the redemption of Zion and the Jewish people. 53 with the Jews as God's suffering servant through history fits better between them than 53 and the messiah dying for mankind. IMO, of course. ;)

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 05:34 PM
King David did not have such an easy life, you know. He probably composed Psalm 22 while fleeing from king Saul and his troops.

Anyway it makes little sense for Jesus aka God to be calling for help from God, as this psalm does.

Jesus did not have an easy life either in as much as he was despised by those to whom he was sent and crucified.

Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mk 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mt 27:39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

Mk 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Jn 9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.

Firstfruits

divaD
Dec 27th 2010, 05:40 PM
Well that's your opinion. Jews see it otherwise.

And if you're going to read the book straight through from chapter 52 to chapter 54, chapter 53 doesn't fit. 52 and 54 are about the redemption of Zion and the Jewish people. 53 with the Jews as God's suffering servant through history fits better between them than 53 and the messiah dying for mankind. IMO, of course. ;)



I understand your point. Can you show where ch 53 has ever been fulfilled then? There's some pretty strange things in that chapter if it is referring to the servant as the Jewish people in general. Such as.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand


To name a few...

BTW, how do you make verse 8 work for you?

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


The 'he' would be the servant. Hmmm then...who would be 'my people'?

Servant89
Dec 27th 2010, 06:05 PM
How long have you been witnessing to Fenris with the same approach? How many years? Does it work?

When we go fishing and the bait does not work, why not try something else?

Why not try to listen to him and answer his questions instead? Let him be the interrogator and let him interrogate us instead. What a novel approach !

He asked the question, why can't God forgive without sacrifice? Yes, why did Jesus have to die?

Fenris and I are waiting...

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 06:06 PM
Jesus did not have an easy life either in as much as he was despised by those to whom he was sent and crucified.

Uh, Jesus was despised by some of the Jewish leadership. He appears to have been quite popular with the common people. And aside from the end of his life, I would not consider his life especially difficult.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 06:09 PM
Uh, Jesus was despised by some of the Jewish leadership. He appears to have been quite popular with the common people. And aside from the end of his life, I would not consider his life especially difficult.

When you say "popular" do you mean by those that believed?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 06:17 PM
I understand your point. Can you show where ch 53 has ever been fulfilled then? There's some pretty strange things in that chapter if it is referring to the servant as the Jewish people in general. Such as.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.Jews going to the gas chambers were described in exactly this manner: as sheep to the slaughter.

The same is true in Psalm 44, which talks about how "For it is for Your sake that we are killed all the time, [that] we are considered as sheep for the slaughter..."


He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.Ok, slight translation issue, the end of the verse in hebrew reads "because of the transgression of my people, a plague came upon them.", not "upon him". Now, the idea of the servant being "cut off from the land of the living" is underzstood as exile from the land of Israel, which is called "the land of the living" by Ezekiel numerous times.


Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his handThe transaltion issue in this verse is much more important. The phrase "when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin" is better read as "if his soul would acknowledge guilt" which completely changes the meaning of the verse. If the cumulative Jewish people would acknowldge guilt and repent, we will see descendants and live long days....





The 'he' would be the servant. Hmmm then...who would be 'my people'?Again, the nations of the world.

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 06:18 PM
When you say "popular" do you mean by those that believed?

According to the gospels, he was popular.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 06:21 PM
According to the gospels, he was popular.

But the gospels did not exist at that time. What is written is that there are some that believed and some that did not.

Firstfruits

divaD
Dec 27th 2010, 06:22 PM
How long have you been witnessing to Fenris with the same approach? How many years? Does it work?

When we go fishing and the bait does not work, why not try something else?

Why not try to listen to him and answer his questions instead? Let him be the interrogator and let him interrogate us instead. What a novel approach !

He asked the question, why can't God forgive without sacrifice? Yes, why did Jesus have to die?

Fenris and I are waiting...

Shalom



IMo, if Fenris is going to be true to the text, Isaiah 53:8 presents a problem for him.

If the 'he' in verse 8 has already been identified as the Jewish people in general, and if the OT always defines 'my people' as the Jewish people in general, then it looks like their is a conflict between the two. Either the servant is not all the Jewish people in general, or all my people are not all the Jewish people in general. They both can't be all the Jewish people in general. It's going to be interesting what Fenris concludes in this particular context. He's either going to have to admit the servant is not all the Jewish people in general, or he's going to have to admit my people aren't.

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 06:28 PM
But the gospels did not exist at that time. What is written is that there are some that believed and some that did not.

Do you think he led an especially difficult life?

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 06:34 PM
Do you think he led an especially difficult life?

According to the scriptures yes.

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 06:35 PM
IMo, if Fenris is going to be true to the text, Isaiah 53:8 presents a problem for him.

If the 'he' in verse 8 has already been identified as the Jewish people in general, and if the OT always defines 'my people' as the Jewish people in general, then it looks like their is a conflict between the two. Either the servant is not all the Jewish people in general, or all my people are not all the Jewish people in general. They both can't be all the Jewish people in general. It's going to be interesting what Fenris concludes in this particular context. He's either going to have to admit the servant is not all the Jewish people in general, or he's going to have to admit my people aren't.

Why does "my people" have to mean the Jews? Wouldn't that kind of depend on who the speaker is? if the speaker is the startled kings at the end of chapter 52, then "my people" means the gentiles.

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 06:35 PM
According to the scriptures yes.

Firstfruits

Do tell..............

keck553
Dec 27th 2010, 06:39 PM
Do you think he led an especially difficult life?

On a human level, many feel the sting of sorrow for rejection. How much more then does God grieve rejection by His own beloved?

In the context of Matthew 23:37, I think Jesus lived a very sorrowful life.

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 06:41 PM
On a human level, many feel the sting of sorrow for rejection. How much more then does God grieve rejection by His own beloved?

So when Isaiah speaks of the servant as "a man of pains, and accustomed to illness", he means a broken heart?

divaD
Dec 27th 2010, 06:48 PM
Again, the nations of the world.



But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities


So the way you understand this would be like this?


But THE JEWISH PEOPLE IN GENERAL WERE wounded for THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD'S transgressions, THE JEWISH PEOPLE IN GENERAL WERE bruised for THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD'S iniquities

Would that be correct? Since you brought up Hitler, I would assume that is how you might understand it. But the way that verse reads to me is that the servant paid the price for others transgressions, that he took their place. And as much as I utterly despise and hate Hitler with a passion, for what he did to the Jewish people, I don't see this verse making that same point. This doesn't mean I don't feel sad about what Hitler did, because I truly do. But I'm convinced that the Lord will avenge those that have come against His people, the Jews, when He returns. Zech 14, among other places make that clear.

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 06:52 PM
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities

Not for. From. The servant was wounded FROM the trangressions. It's very basic Hebrew.

In application, if you beat me up, am I wounded from your trangression (of assault)? You bet I am.

keck553
Dec 27th 2010, 06:59 PM
So when Isaiah speaks of the servant as "a man of pains, and accustomed to illness", he means a broken heart?

That's a good question, and it deserves and answer. But consider this; during the great plague, Jews were less prone to the disease. That was one of the "attributes" that condemned many Jews during the dark ages to an execution stake. Why were Jews less suspectable to the disease? Communal isolation? Dietary habits? Both? At any rate, I don't think Jews suffer any more from illness than any other folk. So, what does the verse mean to you?

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 07:02 PM
But consider this; during the great plague, Jews were less prone to the disease. That was one of the "attributes" that condemned many Jews during the dark ages to an execution stake. Why were Jews less suspectable to the disease? Communal isolation? Dietary habits? Both? At any rate, I don't think Jews suffer any more from illness than any other folk. So, what does the verse mean to you?

Actually I don't think that Jews were any less prone to illness than anyone else. But regardless, the "illness and pains" were inflicted by man.

keck553
Dec 27th 2010, 07:03 PM
Would that be correct? Since you brought up Hitler, I would assume that is how you might understand it. But the way that verse reads to me is that the servant paid the price for others transgressions, that he took their place. And as much as I utterly despise and hate Hitler with a passion, for what he did to the Jewish people, I don't see this verse making that same point. This doesn't mean I don't feel sad about what Hitler did, because I truly do. But I'm convinced that the Lord will avenge those that have come against His people, the Jews, when He returns. Zech 14, among other places make that clear.

Not to be nit-picky, but the Hitler episode was just a spike (a large one) in the age-old anti-Semite attitudes and actions that have been going on since Abraham. Just saying, the overall picture is bigger than the snapshot.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 07:05 PM
Do tell..............

According to prophecy.

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mt 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mt 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mt 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Ps 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

Rom 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

Firstfruits

keck553
Dec 27th 2010, 07:06 PM
Actually I don't think that Jews were any less prone to illness than anyone else. But regardless, the "illness and pains" were inflicted by man.

Jews are certainly not unique to that condition. What seems unique to me is the seemingly non-stop march of the infliction (by man).

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 07:10 PM
According to prophecy.

This is such a hard life?

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 07:11 PM
Jews are certainly not unique to that condition. What seems unique to me is the seemingly non-stop march of the infliction (by man).
Yes, I agree. That's why I see the verse as being a sad summation for so much of Jewish history.

keck553
Dec 27th 2010, 07:16 PM
Yes, I agree. That's why I see the verse as being a sad summation for so much of Jewish history.

Yet it is a great testimony of God keeping His people Israel. Without that, I have no hope in my belief.

Some say Jews are "keepers of the Book," but I submit, it is God Himself that does the keeping. Are you preserved by good works or preserved for good works?

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 07:20 PM
This is such a hard life?

I am sure you know there are many more. Jesus was not wanted, those that did believe could not be open to that fact.

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 07:23 PM
Some say Jews are "keepers of the Book," but I submit, it is God Himself that does the keeping. Are you preserved by good works or preserved for good works?

Hey, interesting question. I don't know.

All I can say is that He will keep us around, as per Leviticus 26: 44 And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. 45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 07:24 PM
I am sure you know there are many more. Jesus was not wanted, those that did believe could not be open to that fact.

So he was rejected. Wow. This makes him "a man of pains, accustomed to illness"?

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 07:34 PM
So he was rejected. Wow. This makes him "a man of pains, accustomed to illness"?

Jesus was was mortal was he not, so pain and sorrow are things he would have suffered.

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 07:37 PM
Jesus was was mortal was he not, so pain and sorrow are things he would have suffered.

Oh so now every mortal is "a man of pains, accustomed to illness"?

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 07:40 PM
Oh so now every mortal is "a man of pains, accustomed to illness"?

Jesus was like us was he not?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 07:41 PM
Jesus was like us was he not?

If every mortal is "a man of pains, accustomed to illness", why bother mentioning it?

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 07:45 PM
If every mortal is "a man of pains, accustomed to illness", why bother mentioning it?

You mentioned it in #130, so why did you mention it?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 07:52 PM
You mentioned it in #130, so why did you mention it?

Because I don't see how Jesus is the servant in Isaiah 53.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 08:00 PM
Because I don't see how Jesus is the servant in Isaiah 53.

As I said before it was in regards to Isaiah 52 that I replied to you post.

Is 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Do you believe this should be Israel rather that Jesus?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 08:03 PM
As I said before it was in regards to Isaiah 52 that I replied to you post.Yes but you ignored everything I said.



Do you believe this should be Israel rather that Jesus?Jews understand the "servant" as being the Jewish people.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 08:09 PM
Yes but you ignored everything I said.


Jews understand the "servant" as being the Jewish people.

Can we go ahead if the start is not understood?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 08:11 PM
Can we go ahead if the start is not understood?

Not sure I understand your question...

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 08:18 PM
Not sure I understand your question...

With regards to Isaiah 52 as you gave it, and the scriptures that I gave with it should it be Israel or is it the messiah?

Is 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Do you believe this should be Israel rather that Jesus?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 08:21 PM
With regards to Isaiah 52 as you gave it, and the scriptures that I gave with it should it be Israel or is it the messiah?
You can't quote NT verses at me to prove something.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 08:24 PM
You can't quote NT verses at me to prove something.

Who then is spoken of in 52:13 The messiah or israel?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 08:26 PM
Who then is spoken of in 52:13 The messiah or israel?

As I have said several times, it is Israel.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 08:36 PM
As I have said several times, it is Israel.

How is Israel to be exalted?

How is Israel to deal prudently?

Is 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 08:38 PM
How is Israel to be exalted?

Zechariah 8:23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 08:41 PM
Zechariah 8:23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"

But is that not through the messiah?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 27th 2010, 08:43 PM
But is that not through the messiah?

You asked me how Israel will be exalted. I showed you how.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2010, 08:46 PM
You asked me how Israel will be exalted. I showed you how.

Yes but that is because of the messiah that Israel shall follow and all nations.

Firstfruits

rejoice44
Dec 27th 2010, 09:38 PM
Ok, so God can't forgive without sacrifice.

Why not?

Fenris Is God just?

divaD
Dec 27th 2010, 09:51 PM
Why does "my people" have to mean the Jews? Wouldn't that kind of depend on who the speaker is? if the speaker is the startled kings at the end of chapter 52, then "my people" means the gentiles.



Isaiah 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.


Here's the first instance of the phrase 'my people'.

Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

This is the last.

In between those passages, that phrase is used at least 20 more times. Do a phrase search for 'my people' in the book of Isaiah. You'll be hard pressed to find one instance where that phrase is used, where it's not describing God's chosen people. Yet, out of all the places in the book of Isaiah, one of those times isn't speaking of God's chosen people? I understand the book of Isaiah has different contexts throughout, but it seems strange to me that in ch 53 'my people' is no longer referring to God's chosen people.

You state that the Jews understand Isaiah 53 to be defining the servant as the Jewish people. Do Jews that converted to Christianity share the same understanding about that chapter?

dim mirrors
Dec 27th 2010, 09:58 PM
Servant89. Really nice thread before it was sidetracked by Fenris. Really wonderful - the typology you brought out there. Inspiring.

Fenris. Why was Jerusalem and the temple destroyed in 70 A.D - 40 years after Yeshua said it would be?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (Mat 23:37-39).

"Then, indeed, these coming together (on the Mount of Olives with Yeshua), they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth. And saying these things, as they watched, He was taken up. And a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they were looking intently into the heaven, He having gone, even behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into the heaven? This same Jesus who is taken up from you into Heaven, will come in the way you have seen Him going into Heaven. Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount Of Olive Grove, which is a sabbath day's journey from Jerusalem. "(Act 1:6-12).

They were Jews, and they were standing with Messiah on the Mount of Olives, and they had been expecting the Messiah to crush the nations:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." (Zec 14:1-4).

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart." (Zec 12:9-14).

2,000 years until they would once again say of Him, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD", as they did when He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (Mat 23:37-39).

2,000 years - because they do not want a Messiah who was a suffering servant who would die for the iniquity of Israel, and they would not acknowledge that the prophecy spoke of Him. 2,000 years because they only want the Messiah who will once again set His feet on the Mount of Olives "when He so comes in like manner as they saw Him be taken up".

2.000 years of suffering, of being the victims of hatred, of pogroms, of false accusations, of banishment from one nation and then another, of being a hiss and a byword, of the holocaust, of being hated of all nations and falsely blamed for Arab hatred, Arab terrorism, Islamo-fascism and everything else that's evil and wrong in the world.

"... And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. " (Luk 19:44).

The star of Judah will indeed acknowledge with the other 10 stars the fact that it's is God's will that the sun and the moon and the 11 stars will bow down before He who has been given a name above every name, because Moses and the prophets prophesied it.

"Not acknowledged as the Messiah" until they say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD".

THEN and only then will He once again set His feet on the Mount of Olives and fight against the nations which will again gather against Jerusalem.

.... And that is why He began calling you out of the nations first through the Zionist movement in the late 1800's, and especially since 1948.

Servant89
Dec 28th 2010, 07:22 AM
Not in this particular thread based just on the post I replied to. It would simply be an exercise in futility. As Fenris will surely testify... I pick my targets. This one isn't the right target to aim at. ;)

You told me I am in error ... I said, ok, tell me the answer then. And you don't have one, but instead of admiting that, you come up with that cop out. Not here? I gave you enough time to do research.

Do not tell me my answer is the wrong one if you do not have an answer to give. Since you do not have one, I will stick with the one I got. I hope you do not mind.

If Jesus did not have to die, why did he die? If it was possible for me to be saved without the cross, why did he go to the cross? If it is possible to forgive without any sacrifice, why did God come up with the idea of the cross?

Mt 26:42 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Here is a hint...

Heb 9:26 ... but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Yeah, cut out the wisdom of rhetoric, show us the Scriptures. Without the cross, without his sacrifice, no one can make it to heaven.

How can we preach to Fenris without the cross?

Shalom

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 01:16 PM
Yes but that is because of the messiah that Israel shall follow and all nations.

It doesn't matter why. You asked me if Israel will be exalted and I provided a biblical reference that yes, they will be.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 01:17 PM
Fenris Is God just?

Why can't God forgive without a sacrifice?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 01:21 PM
Here's the first instance of the phrase 'my people'.Who "my people" is depends on the speaker. If you're going to get nitpicky on text the "servant" is named at least half a dozen times in Isaiah, and it is Israel.



You state that the Jews understand Isaiah 53 to be defining the servant as the Jewish people. Do Jews that converted to Christianity share the same understanding about that chapter?
Jews who converted to Christianity have an opinion that is not Jewish. I wouldn't look for an opinion from Jews who converted to Islam or non practicing Jews for that matter either.

Firstfruits
Dec 28th 2010, 01:42 PM
It doesn't matter why. You asked me if Israel will be exalted and I provided a biblical reference that yes, they will be.

If so then the messiah must be exlated before Israel can be exalted.

Is 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

Is 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Is 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Is 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

Is 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 01:45 PM
Servant89. Really nice thread before it was sidetracked by Fenris. That's my speciality. :lol:

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 01:46 PM
If so then the messiah must be exlated before Israel can be exalted.
That doesn't matter. You asked me if Israel will be exalted and I provided a biblical reference that yes, they will be.

Firstfruits
Dec 28th 2010, 01:49 PM
That doesn't matter. You asked me if Israel will be exalted and I provided a biblical reference that yes, they will be.

But what must come first, must the messiah not be exalted first before Israel can be exalted, and why would that not matter? Does the messiah not matter?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 01:54 PM
But what must come first, must the messiah not be exalted first before Israel can be exalted, and why would that not matter?
Ahem. You said that the servant must be the messiah, because how will Israel be exalted? I provided biblical proof of when and how Israel will in fact be exalted. So the servant could, in fact, be Israel. Whether the messiah will be exalted or not is irrelevant to this point.

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 01:55 PM
Why can't God forgive without a sacrifice?

Fenris I can't explain to you why God can't forgive without a sacrifice if you don't believe God is Just, thus the reason for the question to you, is God just?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 01:56 PM
Fenris I can't explain to you why God can't forgive without a sacrifice if you don't believe God is Just, thus the reason for the question to you, is God just?

Obviously God is just. Why can't He forgive without sacrifice?

Servant89
Dec 28th 2010, 01:56 PM
Why can't God forgive without a sacrifice?

Fenris and I are singing a duet now, Why can't he?

Shalom

Servant89
Dec 28th 2010, 01:58 PM
That's my speciality. :lol:

And Fenris has my permission to highjack any of my threads any day. Lord, bless Fenris today.

Shalom

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 01:59 PM
Obviously God is just. Why can't He forgive without sacrifice?

You also believe that God is coming to judge the world, is that true?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 02:01 PM
Fenris and I are singing a duet now, Why can't he?

I have this mental image of the donkey singing :)

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 02:02 PM
And Fenris has my permission to highjack any of my threads any day.
Lord knows I've done it enough times! :lol: :hug:

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 02:03 PM
You also believe that God is coming to judge the world, is that true?
I'm not sure and don't see the relevance. Why can't God forgive without sacrifice?

Firstfruits
Dec 28th 2010, 02:04 PM
Ahem. You said that the servant must be the messiah, because how will Israel be exalted? I provided biblical proof of when and how Israel will in fact be exalted. So the servant could, in fact, be Israel. Whether the messiah will be exalted or not is irrelevant to this point.

I answered according to Isaiah 52:13 and according to the scriptures Jesus is already exalted, Israel is yet to be gathered by Gods servant.

Is 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Is 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Firstfruits

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 02:08 PM
I'm not sure and don't see the relevance. Why can't God forgive without sacrifice?

I will show you the relevance if you follow.

Is this a true verse? Psalm 98:9 Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 02:14 PM
I answered according to Isaiah 52:13 and according to the scriptures Jesus is already exalted, Israel is yet to be gathered by Gods servant.

According to Christians, Jesus is a lot of things. That doesn't preclude something happening to the Jews at some later date. As things stand, there's no reason why the servant can't be Israel.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 02:14 PM
I will show you the relevance if you follow.

Is this a true verse? Psalm 98:9 Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Obviously. Now go on...

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 02:20 PM
Obviously. Now go on...

That verse says we will be a day when God comes and judges every one, and it will be with equity. What will David say to God when that day comes?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 02:22 PM
That verse says we will be a day when God comes and judges every one, and it will be with equity. What will David say to God when that day comes?

Please get to the point already.

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 02:27 PM
Please get to the point already.

Ok. We are sitting in God's courtroom and David is on trial. David killed Uriah and took his wife, the penalty for both is death, according to the Law. If God is just, what will the verdict be for David?

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 02:33 PM
[QUOTE=Fenris;2588604[/QUOTE]

Sorry I have to go for a couple hours. I will be back.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 02:34 PM
Ok. We are sitting in God's courtroom and David is on trial. David killed Uriah and took his wife, the penalty for both is death, according to the Law. If God is just, what will the verdict be for David?
King David is already dead.

Firstfruits
Dec 28th 2010, 03:02 PM
According to Christians, Jesus is a lot of things. That doesn't preclude something happening to the Jews at some later date. As things stand, there's no reason why the servant can't be Israel.

God cannot send Israel to gather itself.

Is 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Is 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Firstfruits

divaD
Dec 28th 2010, 03:27 PM
Who "my people" is depends on the speaker. If you're going to get nitpicky on text the "servant" is named at least half a dozen times in Isaiah, and it is Israel.


.

I wholeheartedly agree..it depends on the speaker. There are plenty of places in the OT where 'my people' is used, and it's not referring to God's chosen people. But that's not my point. I'm only being nitpicky when it comes to the book of Isaiah. I can't find one instance in that whole book where 'my people' are not God's chosen people, and that would include ch 53. How are you determining who the speaker is in ch 53? Are you determining that from the last verse in ch 52?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 03:59 PM
God cannot send Israel to gather itself.


Again. This has nothing to do with Israel being exalted.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 04:01 PM
How are you determining who the speaker is in ch 53? Are you determining that from the last verse in ch 52?

Yes. Remember, chapters are arbitrary. They don't come from God. They were added by copyists in the middle ages. And the start of 53 is out of place, is should start several verses earlier.

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 04:30 PM
King David is already dead.

King David's soul is dead? Come on Fenris. If all we have is in this life, why do you trouble yourself to do good?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 04:37 PM
King David's soul is dead?
Who said anything about souls?

You said that the penalty for murder is death. I merely pointed out that king David is already dead.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 04:37 PM
Why can't God forgive without sacrifice?

Maybe this is one of those 'laws of creation'?? The first sacrifice on earth occured when an animal had to die to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness. Who does the Bible say did that?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 04:42 PM
Maybe this is one of those 'laws of creation'??
So God is limited by some law?

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 04:45 PM
Who said anything about souls?

You said that the penalty for murder is death. I merely pointed out that king David is already dead.

You already agreed that God is coming to judge the world, did that happen already?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 04:48 PM
You already agreed that God is coming to judge the world, did that happen already?

There will be some sort of judgement at the end, presumably.

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 04:55 PM
There will be some sort of judgement at the end, presumably.

Would you say that the Law will be the measure of that judgment?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 04:57 PM
Would you say that the Law will be the measure of that judgment?

Those parts of the law as apply to the individual, yes.

divaD
Dec 28th 2010, 04:57 PM
Yes. Remember, chapters are arbitrary. They don't come from God. They were added by copyists in the middle ages. And the start of 53 is out of place, is should start several verses earlier.



I understand and fully agree. But I'm not done yet. I'm still determined to prove to you that 'my people' in Isaiah 53 has to be referring to God's chosen people. That would mean that your interpretation of the servant would be incorrect. I'm sure you already assume that. But until you can see that you're misinterpreting 'my people' in ch 53, you're going to be in error in regards to whom the servant is referring to in that context.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:00 PM
I understand and fully agree. But I'm not done yet. I'm still determined to prove to you that 'my people' in Isaiah 53 has to be referring to God's chosen people.

Have at it. No one has yet been able to prove the Jewish understanding wrong.

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 05:02 PM
Those parts of the law as apply to the individual, yes.

Will David be judged there?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:04 PM
Will David be judged there?

Yes.

Can you get to the point already?

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 05:11 PM
Yes.

Can you get to the point already?

It took me this long to get you to agree that David is going to stand in judgment.

Will David be found guilty?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:12 PM
It took me this long to get you to agree that David is going to stand in judgment.Great, how long is it going to take for you to make your point?


Will David be found guilty?Unknown.

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 05:22 PM
[QUOTE=Fenris;2588745]Great, how long is it going to take for you to make your point?

If you wouldn't be so evasive it wouldn't have taken long at all.


Unknown.How can it be unknown? You have agreed that David is going to be judged at God's day of judgment, and you have agreed that David will be judged by the law, so how can it be unknown.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 05:23 PM
So God is limited by some law?

What do you mean? I don't think I implied any limits. God's standards of righeousness is pretty well defined in the first 5 books of Moses. For what purpose would He give us this great gift, then pull the rug out from under us?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:24 PM
How can it be unknown? You have agreed that David is going to be judged at God's day of judgment, and you have agreed that David will be judged by the law, so how can it be unknown.
Because perhaps king David has been pardoned or forgiven by God.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:24 PM
What do you mean? I don't think I implied any limits. God's standards of righeousness is pretty well defined in the first 5 books of Moses. For what purpose would He give us this great gift, then pull the rug out from under us?

What great gift?

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 05:33 PM
What great gift?

Um...the Law???? HIS Law??

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 05:34 PM
Because perhaps king David has been pardoned or forgiven by God.

Then why bother with the Law at all if God is going to forgive everybody. If God is going to select out a few to forgive, by cheap grace (Your words Fenris), how can God be just, for you said God was just?

If I go into court after murdering someone, and the judge says I can go free, because you are my friend, then it cannot be said that the judge is just.

So why was King David pardoned?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:36 PM
Um...the Law???? HIS Law??

What about it? I think we've disconnected somwhere in this chat. Sorry, my fault.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 05:37 PM
Then why bother with the Law at all if God is going to forgive everybody. If God is going to select out a few to forgive, by cheap grace (Your words Fenris), how can God be just, for you said God was just?

If I go into court after murdering someone, and the judge says I can go free, because you are my friend, then it cannot be said that the judge is just.

So why was King David pardoned?

I think a lot read about the heart condition in Psalm 51, but kind of skip over the part that says...."THEN Thou wilt delight in righteous sacrifices, In burnt offering and whole burnt offering; Then young bulls will be offered on Thine altar.

The sacrifice was not 'done away with' in this Psalm. It just had to be done with a proper attitude.

divaD
Dec 28th 2010, 05:38 PM
No one has yet been able to prove the Jewish understanding wrong.



You just had to add pressure to it. lol. Let me then rephrase what I stated. I will TRY and prove to you. That doesn't mean I will be successful. But one never knows till they try, right? Now I guess I should get to work on TRYING to prove you wrong. I'll see what I can come up with. May take a bit, since I'm doing other things today. But I will try to get around to it sooner or later.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 05:39 PM
What about it? I think we've disconnected somwhere in this chat. Sorry, my fault.

Oh....um...yes...I connected it with the slaughter of the animal (lamb perhaps??) that was killed to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:41 PM
Then why bother with the Law at all if God is going to forgive everybody.I didn't say that God is going to forgive "everybody." I said that God has the power to forgive. Being God, presumably He can do as He wishes.


If God is going to select out a few to forgive, by cheap grace (Your words Fenris), how can God be just, for you said God was just?Not sure what your point here is. And you think mere belief in some concept causing forgiveness is harsh justice?



If I go into court after murdering someone, and the judge says I can go free, because you are my friend, then it cannot be said that the judge is just.
Now it's funny that you bring up the court here. God mandated a certain justice system in the bible. if the human courts punish someone, presumably their sin is expunged. So is it justice to say that God gets to punish them again? Yes? No?



So why was King David pardoned?I didn't say whether he was or not. I'm saying it certainly was in God's power to do so.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:42 PM
Oh....um...yes...I connected it with the slaughter of the animal (lamb perhaps??) that was killed to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness.
Yes, animal skins may be used for clothes. I don't see that as a "sacrifice" however.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:43 PM
You just had to add pressure to it. lol. Let me then rephrase what I stated. I will TRY and prove to you. That doesn't mean I will be successful. But one never knows till they try, right? Now I guess I should get to work on TRYING to prove you wrong. I'll see what I can come up with. May take a bit, since I'm doing other things today. But I will try to get around to it sooner or later.
certainly, take your time and get to the discussion when you can. It will be interesting to see your logic.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 05:44 PM
You just had to add pressure to it. lol. Let me then rephrase what I stated. I will TRY and prove to you. That doesn't mean I will be successful. But one never knows till they try, right? Now I guess I should get to work on TRYING to prove you wrong. I'll see what I can come up with. May take a bit, since I'm doing other things today. But I will try to get around to it sooner or later.

Do you believe all of Jewish thought is the same as it was perhaps 2000 years ago? What about 3000 years? No updates? Why did Maimondes change the nature of God in his second tenent of faith from "echad" to "yachid?" Just things that make one go.....hmmmm.....

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:46 PM
Why did Maimondes change the nature of God in his second tenent of faith from "echad" to "yachid?" Just things that make one go.....hmmmm.....

Wait, what..........?

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 05:47 PM
Yes, animal skins may be used for clothes. I don't see that as a "sacrifice" however.

I didn't read anything about animals dying before the fall; in fact in Genesis I read quite the opposite ..."Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame." Did I miss something?

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 05:48 PM
Wait, what..........?

Is my source tainted? This is from the "thirteen principles of faith:"

I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity (yachid), and that there is no unity in any manner like unto His, and that He alone is our God, Who was, is, and will be.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:49 PM
I didn't read anything about animals dying before the fall; in fact in Genesis I read quite the opposite ..."Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame." Did I miss something?

If everything is about sacrifice, then every animal death will seem to be a sacrifice I suppose. The bible doesn't make that connection though.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:51 PM
Is my source tainted? This is from the "thirteen principles of faith:"

I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity (yachid), and that there is no unity in any manner like unto His, and that He alone is our God, Who was, is, and will be.
Yes, he's philosophically explaining God. What does that have to do with "echad", "one"?

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 05:51 PM
If everything is about sacrifice, then every animal death will seem to be a sacrifice I suppose. The bible doesn't make that connection though.

Not sure we have the same definition of 'sacrifice.' My point was that something had to die to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness, whereas before, it didn't seem to be necessary.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 05:54 PM
Not sure we have the same definition of 'sacrifice.' My point was that something had to die to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness, whereas before, it didn't seem to be necessary.

Yes, and so....? God made animal skins that could be used as clothing.

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 05:58 PM
[QUOTE=Fenris;2588770]I didn't say that God is going to forgive "everybody." I said that God has the power to forgive. Being God, presumably He can do as He wishes.

But God is just and no respecter of persons. If God is just he has to dispense equal justice. The Law has to apply equally to all who are under the law. God doesn't have to do this, but then one would have to say God is not just.


Not sure what your point here is. And you think mere belief in some concept causing forgiveness is harsh justice?

Have no idea what you have just said here.


Now it's funny that you bring up the court here. God mandated a certain justice system in the bible. if the human courts punish someone, presumably their sin is expunged. So is it justice to say that God gets to punish them again? Yes? No?

The judgment on earth has nothing to do with the judgment of a man's heart and soul. They are two different judgments, for the one is temporal.


I didn't say whether he was or not. I'm saying it certainly was in God's power to do so.

That is the point, can God be just without equity in justice?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 06:03 PM
But God is just and no respecter of persons. If God is just he has to dispense equal justice. The Law has to apply equally to all who are under the law. God doesn't have to do this, but then one would have to say God is not just.Uh, the phrase "God is no respector of persons" is a NT concept. Judaism does not believe that everyone is judged on the same scale. Furthermore, I am not so bold as to say that God "must" do anything.



The judgment on earth has nothing to do with the judgment of a man's heart and soul. They are two different judgments, for the one is temporal.
So one can be punished on earth for some sin and God can punish them again later? What's the point of earthly courts then?



That is the point, can God be just without equity in justice?Not sure ahat you mean by "equity", especially considering that you believe that accepting Jesus's sacrifice means no punishment at all.

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 06:26 PM
Uh, the phrase "God is no respector of persons" is a NT concept. Judaism does not believe that everyone is judged on the same scale. Furthermore, I am not so bold as to say that God "must" do anything.

Deuteronomy 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.

If you knew God personally you would understand that God is no respecter of persons.


So one can be punished on earth for some sin and God can punish them again later? What's the point of earthly courts then? The temporal courts do not dispense justice because they are run by sinful man. You never heard anyone saying, you may have gotten away with it in this court, but you will not get away from God's justice.


Not sure ahat you mean by "equity", especially considering that you believe that accepting Jesus's sacrifice means no punishment at all.Now you have finally gotten down to the question of David. You have already said, God can do whatever He wants, and what was it that God wanted for David? It was mercy, and God's mercy for David was to offer up the Messiah to take David's punishment. God was just in that the penalty was applied, but in his soverign wisdom God made a way for David to escape. The Messiah's death for the sins of david.

The Lamb's blood shed for the Jews in Egypt, the ram taking the place of Isaac.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 06:27 PM
Yes, he's philosophically explaining God. What does that have to do with "echad", "one"?

"yachid" is not a Biblical characterization of God. It's possible that the change from "echad" in the writings were modified to "yachid" as a reaction to Christian doctrine, maybe to strengthen the position of God as One??? I understand this tendency, as we all go to our furtherest corners in debate, but it's not what how the Bible characterizes God. So the modification creates suspicion in me. Don't think I am picking on the sages, Judaism isn't alone (yachid- haha) with this kind of thing.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 06:27 PM
Yes, and so....? God made animal skins that could be used as clothing.

What was the purpose of doing this?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 06:32 PM
Deuteronomy 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment;Gee, I didn't realize that God was giving Himself a command too here. :lol:


If you knew God personally you would understand that God is no respecter of persons.Perhaps I do know Him personally and He's still not.


The temporal courts do not dispense justice because they are run by sinful man. Uh, I understand that you might believe this but it's not in the bible anyplace. The bible seems to say the complete opposite actually. Anyway since we're on this "God is just" kick perhaps you could explain how it's "just" for a human court to punish a person and then God to punish them again.


Now you have finally gotten down to the question of David. You have already said, God can do whatever He wants, and what was it that God wanted for David? It was mercy, and God's mercy for David was to offer up the Messiah to take David's punishment. God was just in that the penalty was applied, but in his soverign wisdom God made a way for David to escape. The Messiah's death for the sins of david.

This still does not answer the question. Why does God need a sacrifice to forgive?

amazzin
Dec 28th 2010, 06:33 PM
On a human level, many feel the sting of sorrow for rejection. How much more then does God grieve rejection by His own beloved?

In the context of Matthew 23:37, I think Jesus lived a very sorrowful life.

WELCOME BACK BTW :D

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 06:37 PM
"yachid" is not a Biblical characterization of God.
Maimonides was a philosopher. He was describing God in philosophical terms. I don't see any issue with the bible describing God as "one" and Maimonides describing Him as a "unity" or whetever.

Hey, Jesus referred to himself as "the alpha and the omega". The OT never uses that phrase to describe God. Does that invalidate the idea? Of course not. God refers to Himself as "the first and the last", which is another way of saying... "alpha and omega."

So too God as "one" and God as "unity".

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 06:37 PM
What was the purpose of doing this?
Let me guess... sacrifice!

John146
Dec 28th 2010, 06:58 PM
Not for. From. The servant was wounded FROM the trangressions. It's very basic Hebrew.

In application, if you beat me up, am I wounded from your trangression (of assault)? You bet I am.Can you please post Isaiah 53 in its entirety from the English translation that you use? What is that translation called again? Thanks.

John146
Dec 28th 2010, 07:05 PM
Uh, the phrase "God is no respector of persons" is a NT concept. Judaism does not believe that everyone is judged on the same scale. Furthermore, I am not so bold as to say that God "must" do anything. It's not just a NT concept. The OT teaches the same thing.

2 Chronicles 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

Deut 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: 18He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 07:13 PM
Behold, My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"So shall he cause many nations to be startled; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, because that which had not been told to them they saw, and that which they had not heard they perceived.

Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root out from dry ground; he had no features and no splendor; and we saw him that he had no appearance; and how could we desire him?He was despised and forsaken by men; a man of pains, and accustomed to illness, and as one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him.Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains – he has carried them, yet we had regarded him plagued, smitten by God, and oppressed.But he was pained from of our transgressions, crushed from of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wounds we were healed.We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord inflicted upon him [or, accepted his prayers for] the iniquity of all of us.He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.From imprisonment and from judgment he was taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague came upon them.
And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy in his deaths, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he shall have descendants, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.From the toil of his soul he shall see [and he shall] be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant will vindicate the righteous before the multitudes, and their iniquities he shall carry.Therefore, I will allot him a portion among the multitudes, and with the mighty he shall share booty, because he has bared his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and he will intercede for the transgressors.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 07:16 PM
It's not just a NT concept. The OT teaches the same thing.

2 Chronicles 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

Deut 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: 18He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

My translation reads a bit different- For the Lord, your God, is God of gods and the Lord of the lords, the great mighty and awesome God, Who will show no favor, nor will He take a bribe. and "And now, may the fear of the Lord be upon you; observe and do, for with the Lord your God there is neither injustice, favoritism, nor bribe-taking."

Reagrdless God can presumably do as He wishes.

John146
Dec 28th 2010, 07:22 PM
My translation reads a bit differentOf course it does. ;) Thanks for posting Isaiah 53 from your translation, by the way.


Reagrdless God can presumably do as He wishes.Of course He can but it so happens that what He wishes to not have respect of persons.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 07:44 PM
Let me guess... sacrifice!

I wasn't asking you to read my mind, mostly because it's......well blank. I asked for your view.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 07:48 PM
I wasn't asking you to read my mind, mostly because it's......well blank. I asked for your view.

God made animal skins useful for making clothes for the same reason that He made their meat tasty. That is their role in creation.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 07:52 PM
Maimonides was a philosopher. He was describing God in philosophical terms. I don't see any issue with the bible describing God as "one" and Maimonides describing Him as a "unity" or whetever.

Hey, Jesus referred to himself as "the alpha and the omega". The OT never uses that phrase to describe God. Does that invalidate the idea? Of course not. God refers to Himself as "the first and the last", which is another way of saying... "alpha and omega."

So too God as "one" and God as "unity".

Well that's just silly. The Sepuagint would also use alpha/omega, would it not? Here we have two hebrew words, not a hebrew and a greek translation. They have different meanings. Maimondes in effect too the "im" out of Elohim. By the way, is philosophy a Jewish concept? I thought that distinction was relgated to Greeks like Plato and Socrates.

Forgive my trivial pursuit, it just seems to me that God chooses His Words very carefully.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 07:53 PM
God made animal skins useful for making clothes for the same reason that He made their meat tasty. That is their role in creation.

I didn't know Adam and Eve ate meat before the fall.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 07:56 PM
Well that's just silly. The Sepuagint would also use alpha/omega, would it not?Not to my knowledge, no.


Here we have two hebrew words, not a hebrew and a greek translation. They have different meanings. Maimondes in effect too the "im" out of Elohim.
What are you saying, prior to Maimonides Jews saw God as plural? certainly not.



By the way, is philosophy a Jewish concept? I thought that distinction was relgated to Greeks like Plato and Socrates. There are Jewish philosophers.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 07:57 PM
I didn't know Adam and Eve ate meat before the fall.
I thought technically Noah was the first person who was given permission to eat meat? Anyway Adam and Eve were not the sole purpose for creation, mankind in general was.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 07:59 PM
Not to my knowledge, no..


Then what is the greek translation for aleph/tav??


What are you saying, prior to Maimonides Jews saw God as plural? certainly not.


No. Complex unity perhaps?



There are Jewish philosophers.

apparently....

John146
Dec 28th 2010, 08:00 PM
Behold, My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"So shall he cause many nations to be startled; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, because that which had not been told to them they saw, and that which they had not heard they perceived.

Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root out from dry ground; he had no features and no splendor; and we saw him that he had no appearance; and how could we desire him?He was despised and forsaken by men; a man of pains, and accustomed to illness, and as one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him.Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains – he has carried them, yet we had regarded him plagued, smitten by God, and oppressed.But he was pained from of our transgressions, crushed from of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wounds we were healed.We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord inflicted upon him [or, accepted his prayers for] the iniquity of all of us.He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.From imprisonment and from judgment he was taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague came upon them.
And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy in his deaths, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he shall have descendants, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.From the toil of his soul he shall see [and he shall] be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant will vindicate the righteous before the multitudes, and their iniquities he shall carry.Therefore, I will allot him a portion among the multitudes, and with the mighty he shall share booty, because he has bared his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and he will intercede for the transgressors.Okay, now let me paraphrase this just a little bit by replacing "My servant" and "he" with "the Jews" and by replacing "our" and "we" with "the Gentiles" and see if it makes sense. Sound good? Alright then...

Isaiah 52:13-53:12 (Fenris Translation):

Behold, the Jews shall prosper; the Jews shall be exalted and lifted up, and the Jews shall be very high.As many wondered about the Jews, "How marred the Jews' appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"So shall the Jews cause many nations to be startled; kings shall shut their mouths because of the Jews, because that which had not been told to them they saw, and that which they had not heard they perceived.

Who would have believed the Gentiles report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord, the Jews, revealed? And the Jews came up like a sapling before it, and like a root out from dry ground; the Jews had no features and no splendor; and we saw the Jews that they had no appearance; and how could the Gentiles desire the Jews? The Jews were despised and forsaken by men; the Jews of pains, and accustomed to illness, and as one from whom the Gentiles would hide their faces; the Jews were despised, and the Gentiles had no regard for the Jews. Indeed, the Jews bore the Gentiles' illnesses, and the Gentiles' pains – the Jews have carried the Gentiles, yet the Gentiles had regarded the Jews plagued, smitten by God, and oppressed. But the Jews were pained from of the Gentiles' transgressions, crushed from of the Gentiles' iniquities; the chastisement of the Gentiles' welfare was upon the Jews, and with the Jews' wounds the Gentiles were healed.

The Gentiles all went astray like sheep, the Gentiles have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord inflicted upon the Jews [or, accepted the Jews' prayers for] the iniquity of all of us Gentiles. The Jews were oppressed, and the Jews were afflicted, yet the Jews would not open their mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter the Jews would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and the Jews would not open their mouth. From imprisonment and from judgment the Jews were taken, and the Jews' generation who shall tell? For the Jews were cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of the Gentiles, a plague came upon them.

And the Jews gave their grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy in his deaths, because the Jews committed no violence, and there was no deceit in the Jews' mouth. And the Lord wished to crush the Jews, He made the Jews ill; if the Jews' soul would acknowledge guilt, the Jews shall have descendants, the Jews shall prolong their days, and God's purpose shall prosper in the Jews' hand. From the toil of the Jews' soul the Jews shall see [and he shall] be satisfied; with the Jews' knowledge My servant the Jews will vindicate the righteous before the multitudes, and the Gentiles' iniquities the Jews shall carry. Therefore, I will allot the Jews a portion among the multitudes, and with the mighty the Jews shall share booty, because the Jews has bared the Jews' soul to death, and with transgressors the Jews were counted; and the Jews bore the sin of many, and the Jews will intercede for the transgressors.

Okay, I have some questions about how this reads. What is it talking about when it says ""How marred the Jews' appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"? What is the Gentiles' report? Why would the question be asked "how could the Gentiles desire the Jews?"? When it said "a man of pains" I changed it to "the Jews of pains". Is that how you read it or would you say it is speaking of an individual "man of pains"? What is it talking about when it says the Jews bore the Gentiles' illnesses and pains and that the Jews carried the Gentiles? What does it mean when it says the Gentiles were healed with the Jews' wounds? Why would the Jews be cut off from the land of the living and a plague come upon them because of the transgression of the Gentiles?

What does it mean when it says "with the Jews' knowledge My servant the Jews will vindicate the righteous before the multitudes, and the Gentiles' iniquities the Jews shall carry"? What does it mean when it says "the Jews has bared the Jews' soul to death, and with transgressors the Jews were counted; and the Jews bore the sin of many, and the Jews will intercede for the transgressors"?

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 08:01 PM
Anyway Adam and Eve were not the sole purpose for creation, mankind in general was.

As it is written: 'be fruitful and multiply'

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 08:01 PM
Then what is the greek translation for aleph/tav??Aleph/tav is a grammatical construct that occurs all over the bible. It doesn't mean "first and last".



No. Complex unity perhaps?The term "complex unity" is also a philosophical idea.

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 08:02 PM
As it is written: 'be fruitful and multiply'
Very well said.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 08:03 PM
Aleph/tav is a grammatical construct that occurs all over the bible. It doesn't mean "first and last".

yeah, yeah. We gentiles just love poetic license, don't we? Alas, you are correct, and I stand corrected. There is no Greek construct that replicates the aleph/tav that occurs...say in Genesis 1:1

But hey, as you say, it's philisopical....



The term "complex unity" is also a philosophical idea.

then why is there a specific word that defines otherwise?

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 08:21 PM
Okay, now let me paraphrase this just a little bit by replacing "My servant" and "he" with "the Jews" and by replacing "our" and "we" with "the Gentiles" and see if it makes sense. Sound good? Alright then...

[I]Isaiah 52:13-53:12 (Fenris Translation)::lol: Ok, let's see this through...

An initial statement. If this is about the Jews, then it is describing the Jewish suffering through history. So when we look at the passages, we have to apply that lens



Okay, I have some uestions about how this reads. What is it talking about when it says ""How marred the Jews' appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"? Have antisemites through history described Jews as looking different from everyone else? Looking 'inhuman'?


What is the Gentiles' report? Describing their surprise.


Why would the question be asked "how could the Gentiles desire the Jews?"?
Because the Jews have been hated through history, and now ten gentiles are grabbing the corner of a Jew's garment? How did that happen?!



When it said "a man of pains" I changed it to "the Jews of pains". Is that how you read it or would you say it is speaking of an individual "man of pains"? It's describing a people in general, not an individual.



What is it talking about when it says the Jews bore the Gentiles' illnesses and pains and that the Jews carried the Gentiles? What does it mean when it says the Gentiles were healed with the Jews' wounds?Could be read many ways. At it's simplest, Jews have historically been blamed for a society's ills and when the Jews were "wounded" (robbed, expelled or murdered) supposedly that society was "healed".


Why would the Jews be cut off from the land of the living
This could merely mean exile; Ezekiel refers to the land of israel as "the land of the living".


and a plague come upon them because of the transgression of the Gentiles?Well again, it's "from", not "for". If you sin by causing me to suffer, am I "plagued" because of your sin?


What does it mean when it says "with the Jews' knowledge My servant the Jews will vindicate the righteous before the multitudes, Vindicate the righteous by bringing them knowldge of the law.


and the Gentiles' iniquities the Jews shall carry"? As above, the Jewish suffering has been from the sins of the gentiles.


What does it mean when it says "the Jews has bared the Jews' soul to death, and with transgressors the Jews were counted; and the Jews bore the sin of many, and the Jews will intercede for the transgressors"?
The Jews pray for the welfare of the counties in which they live. Yes, even if they are mistreated there and even if they live amongst trangressors...

Fenris
Dec 28th 2010, 08:22 PM
then why is there a specific word that defines otherwise?
There isn't. "Elohim" isn't necessarily plural.

rejoice44
Dec 28th 2010, 08:30 PM
Gee, I didn't realize that God was giving Himself a command too here. :lol:

Let scripture speak for itself.

Deuteronomy 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.

2 Chronicles 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

Proverbs 24:23 These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect persons in judgment.

Proverbs 28:21 To have respect of persons is not good: for for a piece of bread that man will transgress.

Job 34:19 How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



If you can't see that God is no respecter of persons from these verses then you don't want to see.



Uh, I understand that you might believe this but it's not in the bible anyplace. The bible seems to say the complete opposite actually. Anyway since we're on this "God is just" kick perhaps you could explain how it's "just" for a human court to punish a person and then God to punish them again.The human court can only punish the body.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




This still does not answer the question. Why does God need a sacrifice to forgive?For the same reason the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed to bear the sins of the Jews.

For the same reason the ram from the thicket was sacrificed for Isaac.

For the same reason Christ had to be sacrificed for David.

Because God chose it to be so. Your argument is with God.

John146
Dec 28th 2010, 08:53 PM
Have antisemites through history described Jews as looking different from everyone else? Looking 'inhuman'?Have they? I don't know. That's not something I'm familiar with. I really highly doubt that Isaiah 53 could have anything to do with that.


Could be read many ways. At it's simplest, Jews have historically been blamed for a society's ills and when the Jews were "wounded" (robbed, expelled or murdered) supposedly that society was "healed".Sorry, but I don't find your response here to be convincing at all. In what way would a society be healed by the Jews being "wounded"?


Vindicate the righteous by bringing them knowldge of the law.How does just knowing the law vindicate someone?


The Jews pray for the welfare of the counties in which they live. Yes, even if they are mistreated there and even if they live amongst trangressors...Hmmm. Again, I don't find this explanation to be convincing at all, but thanks for sharing your view.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 09:34 PM
:
Have antisemites through history described Jews as looking different from everyone else? Looking 'inhuman'?

Well not every Jew. According to Hollywood, Jesus looks just like Jeffrey Hunter, and according to various stable scenes fournd around this time at various stores, His teen mother looks just like a 30-something Norwegian princess in a nun suit; All the while we slap our foreheads at dismay at your unbelief.......to use your term...oye vey,....

Just sayin', we're not the root of faith or doctrine in your Messiah.

keck553
Dec 28th 2010, 09:35 PM
There isn't. "Elohim" isn't necessarily plural.

I wouldn't describe Elohim as strictly plural.

Fenris
Dec 29th 2010, 01:30 PM
For the same reason the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed to bear the sins of the Jews.

For the same reason the ram from the thicket was sacrificed for Isaac.

For the same reason Christ had to be sacrificed for David.

Because God chose it to be so. Your argument is with God.
You still haven't answered the question. Why can't God forgive without a sacrifice?