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catlover
Dec 21st 2010, 09:52 PM
I was reading another thread about whether John knew Jesus and it just got me to thinking. Was Jesus baptized as a sign to others? If Jesus is a part of the Trinity (like I believe He is) the Holy Spirit was always with Him, right?

The Mighty Sword
Dec 21st 2010, 09:56 PM
Someone had to be the example.

Scruffy Kid
Dec 21st 2010, 10:23 PM
Hi catlover!
I'm not sure if we've met, though you've been here a while, so greetings! :hug:
It's good to have you here! :pp :pp :pp

I was reading another thread about whether John knew Jesus and it just got me to thinking. Was Jesus baptized as a sign to other? If Jesus is a part of the Trinity (like I believe He is) the Holy Spirit was always with Him, right?
Thanks also for your good questions. It seems to me like there are two main parts: one is about Jesus' baptism, the other about the descent of the Holy Spirit.

There are many ways of understanding what Jesus did for us, generally. One which, I think, we don't pay enough attention to is that He came to help us do things which we are not able to do by ourselves.

For instance, as human beings, made by God, it is our place to be grateful, and trust in God. But we are really bad at doing that, because of our fallen nature. I sure am. But Jesus, living as a human being, lived out the fully human role of being grateful, and trusting in God. That is an example to us, of course, and inspires us, but I think far more than just an example is going on, important as that is. Also, Jesus -- having taken human flesh, having become one of us, being with us in our humanity -- accomplished certain things which human beings are supposed to do, but which (ever since humanity has been fallen) we don't do, or do only imperfectly. (This includes thanks and trust, as just mentioned.) Jesus, by doing as a man, that is, as a human being, what humanity is supposed to do did even more than be a model for us: He changed human nature, and our relationship to God, by enacting the human role perfectly, fully. This is part of what Hebrews is getting at when it calls him our Great High Priest. So Jesus's actions partly were accomplishing the kind of things humanity always was supposed to be doing, and by His doing that as a human being, starting to heal and redeem our broken human character.

Now let's get to baptism! I think that Jesus in being baptized gave Himself to God in a special way. He didn't need to do that on His own account, however, for He was already in close, obedient, loving and intimate fellowship with God the Father. Instead, I think, what He did in baptism was make for us, His brothers and sisters, the motion of coming to God that we are supposed to make, but don't fully make.

What motion is that, in regard to baptism. The passages about John the Baptist tell us a good deal. We need to repent. We need to confess. We need to have our sins washed away from us -- not only in the sense of being pardoned, but also in the sense of getting the mud that clings to us washed off, getting clean, so we can go forward not so entangled in past sins. We also need to die to ourselves, and to receive our life not just in the normal human sense ("naturally") but to receive new life, spiritual life, from God ("supernaturally"). The act of baptism is an act of submitting to God -- though putting ourselves in the hands of the one baptizing -- of having sin washed away, of dying to ourselves, of being given life, being raised to life, through resurrection, as we come forth from the water.

These are things that God supernaturally helps us with in baptism, I think.

But why then should JESUS do them, since He was not, and is not, in need of repentence, being washed, dying to self and being raised to life by God.

I think that Jesus did those things for us, or on our behalf. By Himself going through those motions of heart, He was helping us to be able to do those things (mostly later, for Christians after the resurrection, but also for followers of His at the time). He was preparing supernatural help, and acting as the pioneer of the things we need to do, to help us in giving ourselves to God, so that God can help us and clean us up by His love and mighty power.

I have to go now, but I'll try to get back and answer the part about the Holy Spirit later!

In friendship,
Scruffy Kid

BroRog
Dec 21st 2010, 11:24 PM
I was reading another thread about whether John knew Jesus and it just got me to thinking. Was Jesus baptized as a sign to other? If Jesus is a part of the Trinity (like I believe He is) the Holy Spirit was always with Him, right?Jesus got baptized, not because he needed his sins forgiven, but in order to affirm and agree with John's teaching.

ThyWordIsTruth
Dec 22nd 2010, 03:11 AM
I was reading another thread about whether John knew Jesus and it just got me to thinking. Was Jesus baptized as a sign to other? If Jesus is a part of the Trinity (like I believe He is) the Holy Spirit was always with Him, right?

Jesus Himself told us the resason for his baptism.

Mat 3:14 John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented.

He got baptized to fulfill all righteousness. What does that mean? An example would help for sure.

Jesus did many things which were unnecessary for him to do. For e.g. Jesus paid the Temple tax. But by his own admission, kings do not collect taxes from their own sons but from others. Jesus is the Son of God and there was no need for him to pay the Temple tax. But he paid it to fulfill all righteousness.

Jesus did not have to eat the Passover. He Himself is the Passover lamb, and the Deliverer of Israel, but he did it. Jesus no doubt partook of the sin offerings his family offered, though he had no sin. Jesus did many other things in fulfillment of the Law of God although they didn't apply to him.

So the reason that Jesus got baptized, even though he had no sin to repent of, was because God required all righteous people to be baptized by John. It was God who commanded John to baptize people, so Jesus submitted to that as well.

Joh 1:33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'

Similarly Jesus fulfilled all the other commands which God gave for righteous people to do, under the Law, although they had no application to Him because He was sinless and because He was God.

kay-gee
Dec 22nd 2010, 05:06 AM
He did it to show us what we all need to do.

"For in this way...WE fulfill all righteous"

He laid out the perfect MODEL of baptism. Into the water. Out of the water. Recieve the Spirit. Exactly the pattern given by Peter in Acts 2:38.

So many miss this! Why?

all the best...

ZTE
Dec 22nd 2010, 04:45 PM
The priests of Yishra'el immersed themselves before and after performing a sacrifice for the people of Yishra'el (as well as the sacrifice itself was scattered into the waters of immersion). He was just doing what Leviticus and Numbers instructed of a High Priest. For it was his anointing as both a High Priest and a sacrifice at the same time. YHWH chose David to be King of Yishra'el, yet he still had to be anointed by Samuel.

There is also another reason, which ties into the wedding he went to a month or so later.

John146
Dec 22nd 2010, 05:03 PM
He did it to show us what we all need to do.

"For in this way...WE fulfill all righteous"

He laid out the perfect MODEL of baptism. Into the water. Out of the water. Recieve the Spirit. Exactly the pattern given by Peter in Acts 2:38.

So many miss this! Why?

all the best...Why do you miss that Cornelius and his household received the Spirit before being water baptized?

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

chasmtoowide
Dec 22nd 2010, 05:27 PM
Jesus Himself told us the resason for his baptism.

Mat 3:14 John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented.

He got baptized to fulfill all righteousness. What does that mean? An example would help for sure.

Jesus did many things which were unnecessary for him to do. For e.g. Jesus paid the Temple tax. But by his own admission, kings do not collect taxes from their own sons but from others. Jesus is the Son of God and there was no need for him to pay the Temple tax. But he paid it to fulfill all righteousness.

Jesus did not have to eat the Passover. He Himself is the Passover lamb, and the Deliverer of Israel, but he did it. Jesus no doubt partook of the sin offerings his family offered, though he had no sin. Jesus did many other things in fulfillment of the Law of God although they didn't apply to him.

So the reason that Jesus got baptized, even though he had no sin to repent of, was because God required all righteous people to be baptized by John. It was God who commanded John to baptize people, so Jesus submitted to that as well.

Joh 1:33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'

Similarly Jesus fulfilled all the other commands which God gave for righteous people to do, under the Law, although they had no application to Him because He was sinless and because He was God.

You hit the nail on the head! Any reasoning outside of Matthew 3:14-15 is fabrication.