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Firstfruits
Jan 1st 2011, 08:22 PM
Are the following scriptures telling us that God is not pleased when we claim to be saved yet sin?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Firstfruits

davidtriune
Jan 1st 2011, 08:24 PM
Are the following scriptures telling us that God is not pleased when we claim to be saved yet sin?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Firstfruits

None of those scriptures tell us that God is not pleased when we "claim to be saved" yet sin.

Firstfruits
Jan 1st 2011, 08:33 PM
None of those scriptures tell us that God is not pleased when we "claim to be saved" yet sin.

Is the following no longer valid?

Is 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Firstfruits

davidtriune
Jan 1st 2011, 08:37 PM
Is the following no longer valid?

Is 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Firstfruits

Why is Is 59:2 no longer valid?
Rom 6:15 is warning us against sinning, because it is forbidden by God.

Firstfruits
Jan 1st 2011, 08:41 PM
Why is Is 59:2 no longer valid?
Rom 6:15 is warning us against sinning, because it is forbidden by God.

So if we are saved by grace, and we sin are we going againts the will of God?

Is sin still forbidden?

Firstfruits

AndrewBaptistFL
Jan 2nd 2011, 12:08 PM
Even early in scripture we learn that God does not want us to be slaves of sin:
Genesis 4:7
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”
Notice that the desire of sin is to "have us". If sin has us, do you think the Lord also has us?

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2011, 02:40 PM
Even early in scripture we learn that God does not want us to be slaves of sin:
Genesis 4:7
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”
Notice that the desire of sin is to "have us". If sin has us, do you think the Lord also has us?

We cannot serve two masters.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Jan 2nd 2011, 03:49 PM
So what does it all mean practically?

BroRog
Jan 2nd 2011, 05:27 PM
Are the following scriptures telling us that God is not pleased when we claim to be saved yet sin?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Firstfruits Nope. That's not what those verses are saying.

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2011, 05:36 PM
Nope. That's not what those verses are saying.

With the addition of the following would you still say no?

Is 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

What do you believe those verses are saying?

Firstfruits

david
Jan 2nd 2011, 11:45 PM
With the addition of the following would you still say no?

Is 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

What do you believe those verses are saying?

Firstfruits

Ask yourself, please: How does this verse say that if you do sin, then you are now being blamed for claiming to be saved (the heck does that even mean???)? "Is 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

If you are unsure if you are saved, check the posts i made near the end of the "What does the bible say? OSAS" thread.
"...so you say "you will be saved" is the same thing as "maybe you will be saved?" Is that a promise? did god say, "I promise you, maybe you will be saved!"?" Don't declarify what the bible has clarified!

BroRog
Jan 2nd 2011, 11:54 PM
With the addition of the following would you still say no?

Is 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

What do you believe those verses are saying?

FirstfruitsBy themselves, they say nothing.

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 04:05 PM
Ask yourself, please: How does this verse say that if you do sin, then you are now being blamed for claiming to be saved (the heck does that even mean???)? "Is 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

If you are unsure if you are saved, check the posts i made near the end of the "What does the bible say? OSAS" thread.
"...so you say "you will be saved" is the same thing as "maybe you will be saved?" Is that a promise? did god say, "I promise you, maybe you will be saved!"?" Don't declarify what the bible has clarified!

What I am asking is that if we are saved shall we continue to sin?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Are we not dead to sin?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Jan 3rd 2011, 04:27 PM
What does it mean, practically?

Brother Mark
Jan 3rd 2011, 04:32 PM
What does it mean, practically?

He thinks it means if you sin once, you lose your salvation. No one, that I am aware of, on the board agrees with him on this. No parent disowns a child because of a one time happening.

Also, God says he only disciplines those that are his. How could he chastise someone who sinned, who was then no longer his, if he only chastised someone that is his? (Did that make sense?)


Heb 12:7-11

7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
NASU

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 04:46 PM
What does it mean, practically?

I suppose it depends on what you understand it means to be "dead to sin"

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Are we dead to sin?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Jan 3rd 2011, 04:47 PM
I suppose it depends on what you understand it means to be "dead to sin"

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Are we dead to sin?

Why don't you tell me what you want me to believe it means.

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 04:59 PM
Why don't you tell me what you want me to believe it means.


I cannot tell you what I want you to believe it means, but here are some scriptures that may help.

Rom 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

1 Pet 2:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Are dead in Christ?

Rom 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:03 PM
I cannot tell you what I want you to believe it means, but here are some scriptures that may help.

Let me state this as clearly as I can, because I have no interest what-so-ever in being slow danced to the answer via 1000 questions.
What is YOUR point?

What does it mean from a practical perspective?

davidtriune
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:07 PM
"make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires (Romans 13:14 ESV)."

edit: ack sorry, i shouldn't be using this screenname

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:09 PM
Let me state this as clearly as I can, because I have no interest what-so-ever in being slow danced to the answer via 1000 questions.
What is YOUR point?

What does it mean from a practical perspective?

We are told that we should not yield to sin. It does not say that we are unable to sin but that we should not sin as we did before we came to or put on Christ.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Is that not understood?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:10 PM
We are told that we should not yield to sin. It does not say that we are unable to sin but that we should not sin as we did before we came to or put on Christ.
What does that mean from a practical perspective?


Is that not understood?
I have no idea what point you're trying to teach, so no, its not understood, which is why I keep asking.

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:24 PM
What does that mean from a practical perspective?


I have no idea what point you're trying to teach, so no, its not understood, which is why I keep asking.

Before we came to Christ we obeyed Satan and not God. Now in Christ we should not continue to yield to Satan, we should not continue to sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:29 PM
Before we came to Christ we obeyed Satan and not God. Now in Christ we should not continue to yield to Satan, we should not continue to sin.
Yes but what does that MEAN?

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:40 PM
Yes but what does that MEAN?

As Jesus said "Go thy way and sin no more"

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Firstfruits

david
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:46 PM
So if we are saved by grace, and we sin are we going againts the will of God?

Is sin still forbidden?

Firstfruits

Do not be confused: this states clearly what god's will is:

Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
1 Thess 5:16-18 (ESV)

For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
1 Peter 2:15 (ESV)

For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.
1 Thess 4:3-8 (ESV)

Note that 1 Thess 4:3-8 does not say that we are going against the will of God if we sin, but it says that if we disregard the teachings as described in 1 thess 4:3-7, then we are disregarding God. Sinning and disregarding god's teachings are two different things.

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:52 PM
Do not be confused: this states clearly what god's will is:

Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
1 Thess 5:16-18 (ESV)

For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
1 Peter 2:15 (ESV)

For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.
1 Thess 4:3-8 (ESV)

Note that 1 Thess 4:3-8 does not say that we are going against the will of God if we sin, but it says that if we disregard the teachings as described in 1 thess 4:3-7, then we are disregarding God. Sinning and disregarding god's teachings are two different things.

But it comes down to disregarding God since it is God's word.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:54 PM
As Jesus said "Go thy way and sin no more"
And if one day I should sin, what then?

david
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:54 PM
But it comes down to disregarding God since it is God's word.

Firstfruits

Look, do you believe that we can sin unintentionally, from the evidence I presented? (we may sin unintentionally (Numbers 15:22), and we may not be doing what we want to do ("For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate (Romans 7:15 ESV)").

david
Jan 3rd 2011, 05:56 PM
How could we have disregarded something if we have accidentally disregarded it?

david
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:02 PM
Paul already said that when he tries to do something he wants to do, he has no ability to carry it out (Romans 7:18), and the thing he hates, he keeps on doing (Romans 7:19). How can this be disregarding God?

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:04 PM
How could we have disregarded something if we have accidentally disregarded it?

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

1 Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:06 PM
Why is this same thread being rehashed again? Give it a rest already!

david
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:07 PM
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

1 Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Firstfruits

We cannot sin:

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God (1 John 3:9 ESV)."

It is not us who are sinning, but the sin that is in us:

"Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me (Romans 7:20 ESV)."

These are the lord's words.

david
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:11 PM
Nobody who has believed that Jesus is the Christ sins!

david
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:13 PM
This is why "'All things are lawful for me,' but not all things are helpful (1 Cor 6:12 ESV)." We are not under the law, so we cannot sin because there is no law to sin against. This is because: "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law (Gal 5:18 ESV)." And,

"But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code (Romans 7:6 ESV)."

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:23 PM
We cannot sin:

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God (1 John 3:9 ESV)."

It is not us who are sinning, but the sin that is in us:

"Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me (Romans 7:20 ESV)."

These are the lord's words.

Who is the one that sins?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Have your sins not been removed?

Firstfruits

david
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:29 PM
Who is the one that sins?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Have your sins not been removed?

Firstfruits

As far as I know, we don't need to worry about who sins because the bible does not say so. We know that the "sin" in us is the one who does "evil."

Look carefully at rom 6:1 and tell me this: does this verse say that we can still sin?

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:32 PM
As far as I know, we don't need to worry about who sins because the bible does not say so. We know that the "sin" in us is the one who does "evil."

Look carefully at rom 6:1 and tell me this: does this verse say that we can still sin?

If you say that it is the sin that is in you that sins, have your sins not been removed?

Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Firstfruits

david
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:34 PM
We who have believed onto Jesus are clean! Amen!

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:37 PM
We who have believed onto Jesus are clean! Amen!

If it's not us doing "evil," and we cannot "sin," how can we be dirty? We have been washed by Jesus Christ, and we cannot be dirty again. (People say that we must be cleansed by asking for forgiveness. But this is wrong, because we are already cleansed. Jesus did say, however, that we should pray by asking for forgiveness of sins, but he did not say that the only way to be cleansed is by asking God for forgiveness from time to time. This makes no sense.)

Then you have no sin in you to make you sin, is that right?

Firstfruits

david
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:41 PM
Then you have no sin in you to make you sin, is that right?

Firstfruits

you do not sin. For it says, "There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him (Mark 7:15 ESV)." Understand this.

david
Jan 3rd 2011, 06:56 PM
I made a mistake, sorry: we do do evil according to Romans 7:19, but we do not sin according to 1 John 3:9.

So, evil is not the same thing as sin.

I might get back to you later, let me do some research.

chad
Jan 3rd 2011, 07:17 PM
No we should not continue in sin. Paul writes in Romans 12:1 (NIV) Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.

Brother Mark
Jan 3rd 2011, 08:01 PM
Then you have no sin in you to make you sin, is that right?

Firstfruits

What does this verse say?

1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
NASU

When Jesus washed Peter's feet, he told Peter "you are clean". But his feet still needed washing because, while Peter was clean, his feet were not.

John 13:8-11
8 Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." 9 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head." 10 Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." 11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."
NASU

One can be completely clean, as Jesus said, but still need to have their feet washed.

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2011, 08:28 PM
The sin makes you sin. But you do not sin. For it says, "There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him (Mark 7:15 ESV)." Understand this.

1 Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

If your sin has been cleansed how can sin make you sin?

Firstfruits

Quickened
Jan 3rd 2011, 10:03 PM
Shall we continue to sin? Obviously no.
Will there be times where we may fall to sin? Yes.

Its not a hard concept to grasp. Individuals that are saved are still capable of error. The growth of an individual spiritually differs greatly from person to person. When you read the NT you see people of varying degrees of spiritual maturity. Compare the Corinthian church to the Galatian church to the church at Thessalonica. Being spiritually immature doesn't make a person any less saved then the most devout Christian. The recpiants of the letter to the Corinthians were still regarded as Saints. The letter was directed to "the church" regardless of them being in error and immorality.

notuptome
Jan 3rd 2011, 10:42 PM
We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God. 2 Cor 4:17

The new creature in Christ does not continue (abide, endure, persevere) in sin. If we say we have no sin we lie. We are to abide in Christ and walk in newness of life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

david
Jan 4th 2011, 01:43 AM
1 Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

If your sin has been cleansed how can sin make you sin?

Firstfruits

Sorry I was wrong, we cannot sin at all, so this is wrong: "The sin makes you sin." we cannot do unrighteousness, but we can obey unrighteousness. we do evil, but we cannot sin. unrighteousness has nothing to do with evil.

Firstfruits
Jan 4th 2011, 02:46 PM
Sorry I was wrong, we cannot sin at all, so this is wrong: "The sin makes you sin." we cannot do unrighteousness, but we can obey unrighteousness. we do evil, but we cannot sin. unrighteousness has nothing to do with evil.

Can you explain how evil has nothing to do with unrighteousness?

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

1 Pet 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Ps 52:3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.

Firstfruits

Uncle Bud
Jan 4th 2011, 03:28 PM
Are the following scriptures telling us that God is not pleased when we claim to be saved yet sin?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Firstfruits

Yes they are. Many who subscribe to "easy believism" and "sinning religion" need to heed those verses.

Firstfruits
Jan 4th 2011, 04:17 PM
Shall we continue to sin? Obviously no.
Will there be times where we may fall to sin? Yes.

Its not a hard concept to grasp. Individuals that are saved are still capable of error. The growth of an individual spiritually differs greatly from person to person. When you read the NT you see people of varying degrees of spiritual maturity. Compare the Corinthian church to the Galatian church to the church at Thessalonica. Being spiritually immature doesn't make a person any less saved then the most devout Christian. The recpiants of the letter to the Corinthians were still regarded as Saints. The letter was directed to "the church" regardless of them being in error and immorality.

I agree, though we ought not to sin we are still able to sin.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 4th 2011, 04:18 PM
Yes they are. Many who subscribe to "easy believism" and "sinning religion" need to heed those verses.

Thank you Gilligan,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jan 4th 2011, 04:53 PM
Yes they are. Many who subscribe to "easy believism" and "sinning religion" need to heed those verses.I disagree. Those verses are NOT telling us that God is not pleased when we claim to be saved yet sin. The first three verses listed are rhetorical questions Paul asks in a larger argument he is making. Outside that argument, the verses mean nothing or anything. Take your pick.

VerticalReality
Jan 4th 2011, 05:29 PM
If anyone thinks scriptures like Romans 6 are indicative of how God is going to respond if we sin they have totally missed the boat.

david
Jan 4th 2011, 06:13 PM
Can you explain how evil has nothing to do with unrighteousness?

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

1 Pet 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Ps 52:3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.

Firstfruits

We cannot sin,

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:9 (ESV)

but we do evil.

For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Romans 7:19 (ESV)

if we cannot sin but do evil, then you agree that sin has nothing to do with evil?

david
Jan 4th 2011, 06:41 PM
Yes they are.

Sir, why?

[[][

RollTide21
Jan 4th 2011, 08:35 PM
We cannot sin,

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:9 (ESV)

but we do evil.

For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Romans 7:19 (ESV)

if we cannot sin but do evil, then you agree that sin has nothing to do with evil?1 John 1:8-10

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

John is talking to Believers, here. It's fairly clear in chapter 3 that John is talking about "sin" as being living in a life of habitual, unrepentant sin.

david
Jan 4th 2011, 09:05 PM
1 John 1:8-10

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

John is talking to Believers, here. It's fairly clear in chapter 3 that John is talking about "sin" as being living in a life of habitual, unrepentant sin.

we have sin, but we cannot do it, do you understand?

RollTide21
Jan 4th 2011, 09:35 PM
we have sin, but we cannot do it, do you understand?"If we claim we have not sinned (this is a verb, here), we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

The Spirit of Christ that is in us cannot sin. That is the blameless Advocate we have before God. The flesh part of us most definitely has sin and does sin.

david
Jan 4th 2011, 10:03 PM
"If we claim we have not sinned (this is a verb, here), we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

The Spirit of Christ that is in us cannot sin. That is the blameless Advocate we have before God. The flesh part of us most definitely has sin and does sin.

Indeed we have sinned, and that's before we believed onto Jesus Christ.

RollTide21
Jan 4th 2011, 10:11 PM
Indeed we have sinned, and that's before we believed onto Jesus Christ.John isn't talking to people who haven't believed in Christ. He is talking to those who HAVE believed in Christ.

david
Jan 5th 2011, 01:07 AM
John isn't talking to people who haven't believed in Christ. He is talking to those who HAVE believed in Christ.

How do you know john isn't talking to people who haven't believed in Christ? Are not those who haven't believed in christ may believe in christ as well?

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2011, 08:51 AM
We cannot sin,

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Godís seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:9 (ESV)

but we do evil.

For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Romans 7:19 (ESV)

if we cannot sin but do evil, then you agree that sin has nothing to do with evil?

So the following does not include believers?

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Firstfruits

david
Jan 5th 2011, 08:53 PM
I am confused about the cannot sin part. I might look into it later.

By the way, we are not unclean anymore, we have been sanctified once for all:

And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:10 (ESV)

He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:27 (ESV)

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Heb 9:28 (ESV)

he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:12-14 (ESV)

So the following I said was true:

We have been washed by Jesus Christ, and we cannot be dirty again. (People say that we must be cleansed by asking for forgiveness. But this is wrong, because we are already cleansed. Jesus did say, however, that we should pray by asking for forgiveness of sins, but he did not say that the only way to be cleansed is by asking God for forgiveness from time to time. This makes no sense.)

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2011, 09:04 PM
I am confused about the cannot sin part. I might look into it later.

By the way, we are not unclean anymore, we have been sanctified once for all:

And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:10 (ESV)

He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:27 (ESV)

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Heb 9:28 (ESV)

he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:12-14 (ESV)

So the following I said was true:

We have been washed by Jesus Christ, and we cannot be dirty again. (People say that we must be cleansed by asking for forgiveness. But this is wrong, because we are already cleansed. Jesus did say, however, that we should pray by asking for forgiveness of sins, but he did not say that the only way to be cleansed is by asking God for forgiveness from time to time. This makes no sense.)

So the following does not include believers since believers cannot sin?

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Firstfruits

david
Jan 5th 2011, 09:08 PM
So the following does not include believers since believers cannot sin?

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Firstfruits

see, cannot means two different things. that's the problem with the english language..

cannot = either has no ability to, or must not

Firstfruits
Jan 5th 2011, 09:16 PM
see, cannot means two different things. that's the problem with the english language..

cannot = either has no ability to, or must not

According to what Jesus says in the following I believe it means must not.

Jn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin No more.

Jn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

If we could not sin after being forgiven then Jesus would not have given the warning.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 5th 2011, 09:33 PM
see, cannot means two different things. that's the problem with the english language..

cannot = either has no ability to, or must not

What part of you is born of God? Is it not your Spirit? IMO, your spirit will not sin but your flesh sure will. BTW, just so you know, FF preaches a doctrine that says you are lost the minute you sin. Then you have to get saved again.

As for cannot, it doesn't mean must not. It means cannot, as in no ability.

RollTide21
Jan 5th 2011, 09:45 PM
see, cannot means two different things. that's the problem with the english language..

cannot = either has no ability to, or must notdavid, are you saying the Christians cannot sin, or that Christians cannot be condemned for sin?

david
Jan 5th 2011, 11:20 PM
david, are you saying the Christians cannot sin, or that Christians cannot be condemned for sin?

Christians cannot sin, but i don't know if this means that we must not sin or we have no ability to sin.

david
Jan 5th 2011, 11:21 PM
What part of you is born of God? Is it not your Spirit? IMO, your spirit will not sin but your flesh sure will. BTW, just so you know, FF preaches a doctrine that says you are lost the minute you sin. Then you have to get saved again.

As for cannot, it doesn't mean must not. It means cannot, as in no ability.

Where did you see that our spirit will not sin? Did you find how we have no ability to sin by greek research? By the way, i am davidtriune who changed his name to david.

david
Jan 5th 2011, 11:40 PM
is being in christ jesus the same as abiding in christ jesus?

BroRog
Jan 5th 2011, 11:45 PM
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin , because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin , because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


The operative word here is "practice". The concept here is based on one's occupation as seen in terms of certain tasks that one performs while being engaged in a specialized vocation. This isn't a wage earner who is a laborer or works for wages; this is a tradesmen or a professional, the work of which engages more than his or her time. The one who has a "practice" is not only engaged in skilled tasks, he or she is making a way of life based on a philosophy of life, which includes what it means to be a good human being. In our time period, we call this a "way of life". We each have a personal philosophy and try to live according to that personal belief system, which includes principles of conduct based on our personal values, virtues, and goals.

John is saying that one born of God is not going to have sin as part of his or her personal philosophy or way of life. If we conceive of life as a "practice" then sin isn't going to be a part of our "practice". Our "practice" as Christian believers is going to have a particular philosophy of life such as "a good human being wouldn't cheat or steal from anyone" and other virtuous ideas like that. A Christian believer wouldn't have, as a creed of his life, "a good human being drinks to excess and waists a lot of time." That would NOT be a creed of his or her way of life. The one born of God would not make sin a creed of his life. Sin would not be something to be attained but something to be avoided.

When John says that the one born of God is not able to sin, he means the one born of God is not able to have a personal philosophy that incorporates licentiousness as a way of life. The one born of God will have moral excellence and Christian virtues as part of his or her philosophy of life, and will see sin as a thing to be avoided.

This doesn't mean, however, that a moral failure in life should be interpreted as an abandonment of the entire personal philosophy, an abandonment of Christian virtue, or a repudiation of moral excellence.

EarlyCall
Jan 5th 2011, 11:45 PM
None of those scriptures tell us that God is not pleased when we "claim to be saved" yet sin.

But why would we ever need any scripture to tell us that God is not pleased when we sin?

We can see how great a price Christ paid for our sin, How then could God ever be pleased in any manner or to any degree when we sin when it cost Him His Son? No scripture telling us this is so is explicitly is required.

Do you see what I mean?

david
Jan 5th 2011, 11:59 PM
But why would we ever need any scripture to tell us that God is not pleased when we sin?

We can see how great a price Christ paid for our sin, How then could God ever be pleased in any manner or to any degree when we sin when it cost Him His Son? No scripture telling us this is so is explicitly is required.

Do you see what I mean?

I didn't say that the scriptures don't tell us that God is not pleased when we sin, I said, "None of those scriptures tell us that God is not pleased when we "claim to be saved" yet sin."

EarlyCall
Jan 6th 2011, 12:12 AM
I didn't say that the scriptures don't tell us that God is not pleased when we sin, I said, "None of those scriptures tell us that God is not pleased when we "claim to be saved" yet sin."

Ah. I misunderstood. I see your point. Thanks for clarifying for me. :)

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 01:11 AM
Where did you see that our spirit will not sin? Did you find how we have no ability to sin by greek research? By the way, i am davidtriune who changed his name to david.

Well, it's my spirit that is born of God. And His Spirit is in me. His Spirit in me cannot sin. That's the point. Whoever is born of God cannot sin.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 09:47 AM
What part of you is born of God? Is it not your Spirit? IMO, your spirit will not sin but your flesh sure will. BTW, just so you know, FF preaches a doctrine that says you are lost the minute you sin. Then you have to get saved again.

As for cannot, it doesn't mean must not. It means cannot, as in no ability.

Just to say I do not preach that doctrine. As long ar there is life and you repent of your sin as it is written you will not be lost. If you sin and do not repent then yes you will be lost.

1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Are we clear on what I believe?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 01:08 PM
Sin must be confessed for sin to be forgiven.

Ps 32:5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 01:40 PM
Just to say I do not preach that doctrine. As long ar there is life and you repent of your sin as it is written you will not be lost. If you sin and do not repent then yes you will be lost.

1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Are we clear on what I believe?

Firstfruits

So when Peter told Jesus he wouldn't deny him, isn't that lack of repentance?

VerticalReality
Jan 6th 2011, 01:58 PM
Sin must be confessed for sin to be forgiven.

Ps 32:5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Firstfruits

What about the sin you don't know about?

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 02:18 PM
What about the sin you don't know about?

All sin is contrary to the love of God, so why would a believer not know they are not doing the will of God?

Ezek 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezek 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 02:21 PM
So when Peter told Jesus he wouldn't deny him, isn't that lack of repentance?

Are you saying that Peter did not repent or that he was not sorry for what he had done?

Ps 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 02:33 PM
Are you saying that Peter did not repent or that he was not sorry for what he had done?

Ps 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.

Firstfruits

I am saying Jesus said to Peter "You will deny me." Peter then said "I will not deny you." He disagreed with God and refused to accept what God had revealed to him. Is that not the sin of pride? But he didn't repent right then. Was he lost?

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 03:03 PM
I am saying Jesus said to Peter "You will deny me." Peter then said "I will not deny you." He disagreed with God and refused to accept what God had revealed to him. Is that not the sin of pride? But he didn't repent right then. Was he lost?

A better question is when are we considered to be lost?

Do you not believe that Peter repented of his sin?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 03:24 PM
A better question is when are we considered to be lost?

That question cannot be determined unless we can find scriptural examples to go by. So again, with pride in Peter, was he lost when that sin was in him?


Do you not believe that Peter repented of his sin?

Eventually. But not before more sin had manifested. He didn't believe Jesus and trusted in his own judgment contrary to the command in proverbs. It was a clear violation of "Lean not on your own understanding". So, since Peter didn't repent right away, was he lost at that time?

RollTide21
Jan 6th 2011, 03:25 PM
A better question is when are we considered to be lost?
FirstfruitsNot a better question. That's the million-dollar question.

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 03:36 PM
Not a better question. That's the million-dollar question.

But again, it can't be answered unless we can show it from scripture... right? So what about Samson? He ate honey from a dead lion and broke his vows to God. Yet, the HS was still strong on him. He fooled around with a prostitute, but the HS was still strong on him. He fooled around with a Philistine woman, but the HS was still strong on him. There came a point, where the HS was no longer strong on Samson, but it wasn't when he didn't repent of his early sins. And we haven't even touched on when Samson would no longer be called a son.

RollTide21
Jan 6th 2011, 03:58 PM
But again, it can't be answered unless we can show it from scripture... right? So what about Samson? He ate honey from a dead lion and broke his vows to God. Yet, the HS was still strong on him. He fooled around with a prostitute, but the HS was still strong on him. He fooled around with a Philistine woman, but the HS was still strong on him. There came a point, where the HS was no longer strong on Samson, but it wasn't when he didn't repent of his early sins. And we haven't even touched on when Samson would no longer be called a son.Right. I agree with you. We have plenty of Scripture that implies "Do this to make sure you are saved." Or "If you want to get your eternal reward, you must endure." The issue is that nowhere is there a specific criteria one must meet and there are plenty of Scriptural examples where God's Grace seemed to surpass the most egregious rejection of conviction (see David). This is not even mentioning the countless experiences of modern-day believers.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 04:01 PM
That question cannot be determined unless we can find scriptural examples to go by. So again, with pride in Peter, was he lost when that sin was in him?



Eventually. But not before more sin had manifested. He didn't believe Jesus and trusted in his own judgment contrary to the command in proverbs. It was a clear violation of "Lean not on your own understanding". So, since Peter didn't repent right away, was he lost at that time?

There are many scriptures regarding those that are lost.

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jan 6th 2011, 04:24 PM
All sin is contrary to the love of God, so why would a believer not know they are not doing the will of God?

Because we all look through a glass darkly, and as the word of God declares, we are still being sanctified.

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 04:26 PM
There are many scriptures regarding those that are lost.

Firstfruits

None that fit your doctrine though. I've given 2 examples already where one sinned and did not immediately repent of it and the sin went on a while before repentance occurred. Samson is an even stronger example because even in the midst of his sin, the Holy Spirit was on him in power.

So, we know from example in the word, that someone can sin willfully and knowingly, and still walk in the power of God, as Samson did. IOW, they are not lost if they refuse to repent immediately. Now that road is a dangerous road as Samson and Peter both show.

Use those "many scriptures" to show me an example in scripture where God stops calling someone a son when they refuse to repent for a while. Maybe we could use Israel as an example. They refused to repent for 490 years. But still he disciplined them as sons and sent them into captivity for 70 years. He didn't divorce them until later.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 04:27 PM
Mt 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Lk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Lk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

Lk 15:9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

The lost can be saved.

Lk 15:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Lk 15:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 04:29 PM
All sin is contrary to the love of God, so why would a believer not know they are not doing the will of God?

When Peter disagreed with Jesus, did he know it was a sin? Did he know he was in pride when he said "even if all these deny you, I will not". Did he lean to his own understanding and sin willfully, or did sin deceive him? Either way, you have a problem because he didn't repent of it for a while. Yet, after this pride came out, Jesus said to him "Come and pray with me". Jesus valued Peter's prayers even when pride was in his heart. How can that be?

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 04:33 PM
When Peter disagreed with Jesus, did he know it was a sin? Did he know he was in pride when he said "even if all these deny you, I will not". Did he lean to his own understanding and sin willfully, or did sin deceive him? Either way, you have a problem because he didn't repent of it for a long time. Yet, after this pride came out, Jesus said to him "Come and pray with me". Jesus valued Peter's prayers even when pride was in his heart. How can that be?

Did you think that Jesus would not forgive Peter knowing what was going to happen, and as you have said Peter repented.

As I have said if we sin we must repent.

Where is the problem?

Firstfruits

RollTide21
Jan 6th 2011, 04:40 PM
Did you think that Jesus would not forgive Peter knowing what was going to happen, and as you have said Peter repented.

As I have said if we sin we must repent.

Where is the problem?

FirstfruitsThe problem is that you extend the requirement of repentance to us continuing to be within, or falling away from, the Grace of God. If it is God's contention that we can apostasize, where is the Scriptural mention of when that happens? You say, "You sin, just repent. It's easy." How specific must we go to define the sin that would cause us to lose favor with God? How often must this occur? Since you have yet to refute it, I have to conclude that ALL sin...regardless of the nature of the transgression brings us out of favor with God until we repent. Examples say otherwise...in a HUGE way.

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 04:49 PM
Did you think that Jesus would not forgive Peter knowing what was going to happen, and as you have said Peter repented.

As I have said if we sin we must repent.

Where is the problem?

Firstfruits

Ah, so your caveat if, God knows we will repent one day, eventually, we are not lost when we sin?

You said earlier, if we did not repent, then we lose it. But Israel went 490 years without repenting, yet they were still the children of God. It wasn't until, much, much, much later that repentance occurred. And that happened while he was spanking them with the Chaldeans.

Or what of Samson when he broke his vow and ate honey from the dead lion? There are many others I could list where repentance came much later yet, God stayed with them for a long time.

So can one go many years without repentance and be saved if God knows they will repent as he knew Peter would? Is that what you are saying now?

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 07:34 PM
The problem is that you extend the requirement of repentance to us continuing to be within, or falling away from, the Grace of God. If it is God's contention that we can apostasize, where is the Scriptural mention of when that happens? You say, "You sin, just repent. It's easy." How specific must we go to define the sin that would cause us to lose favor with God? How often must this occur? Since you have yet to refute it, I have to conclude that ALL sin...regardless of the nature of the transgression brings us out of favor with God until we repent. Examples say otherwise...in a HUGE way.

I am not sure how you came to the first part of your conclusion, however the section highlighted is what I agree with.

What have I said contrary to that?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 07:37 PM
Ah, so your caveat if, God knows we will repent one day, eventually, we are not lost when we sin?

You said earlier, if we did not repent, then we lose it. But Israel went 490 years without repenting, yet they were still the children of God. It wasn't until, much, much, much later that repentance occurred. And that happened while he was spanking them with the Chaldeans.

Or what of Samson when he broke his vow and ate honey from the dead lion? There are many others I could list where repentance came much later yet, God stayed with them for a long time.

So can one go many years without repentance and be saved if God knows they will repent as he knew Peter would? Is that what you are saying now?

If we sin we are no different to those that are lost/not yet saved, and need to repent in order for our sin to be forgiven.

Firstfruits

RollTide21
Jan 6th 2011, 07:42 PM
I am not sure how you came to the first part of your conclusion, however the section highlighted is what I agree with.

What have I said contrary to that?

FirstfruitsIs a person lost as soon as they commit a sin and not re-saved until they repent of that specific sin?

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 07:54 PM
Is a person lost as soon as they commit a sin and not re-saved until they repent of that specific sin?

To be lost means to be out of the way, not following the way of truth. Until you return to the way of truth by repenting you are lost.

It is not abiding in Christ.

There are only two ways. If you leave one you are on the other.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Firstfruits

RollTide21
Jan 6th 2011, 07:58 PM
To be lost means to be out of the way, not following the way of truth. Until you return to the way of truth by repenting you are lost.

It is not abiding in Christ.

There are only two ways. If you leave one you are on the other.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

FirstfruitsNot sure how those verses in Matthew address the point, but OK. The short answer, I suppose, is "Yes."

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 08:11 PM
Not sure how those verses in Matthew address the point, but OK. The short answer, I suppose, is "Yes."

The scriptures given show that there are two roads/ways, one leads to heaven the other to destruction.

Firstfruits

david
Jan 6th 2011, 08:12 PM
Is a person lost as soon as they commit a sin and not re-saved until they repent of that specific sin?

No such thing as being resaved..

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29 (ESV)

RollTide21
Jan 6th 2011, 08:14 PM
The scriptures given show that there are two roads/ways, one leads to heaven the other to destruction.

FirstfruitsRight. But those verses don't say that if you stumble off of the right road you are immediately teleported to the wrong road.

david
Jan 6th 2011, 08:14 PM
I don't know where you guys are getting , "lost," but maybe you are talking about sheep.

I know that we can stop abiding in God though. And once we stop abiding in him, we get tossed out like a branch that withers. Then maybe we may get grafted back in again. What does abiding in God do? it makes us bear fruit. if we do not abide in God, we cannot bear fruit. simple. Do you want to bear fruit? then abide in god! otherwise, you cannot do anything. How do we abide in god? by keeping his commandments.

But please don't say that we will lose our salvation, because we cannot! No matter how hard you try!

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 08:17 PM
Right. But those verses don't say that if you stumble off of the right road you are immediately teleported to the wrong road.

Answer me this, can you be on two roads at the same time, can you be right and wrong at the same time, can you be righteous and unrighteous at the same time, can you be saved and unsaved at the same time?

Firstfruits

david
Jan 6th 2011, 08:20 PM
Answer me this, can you be on two roads at the same time, can you be right and wrong at the same time, can you be righteous and unrighteous at the same time, can you be saved and unsaved at the same time?

Firstfruits

You cannot be right and wrong at the same time.

However, rest assured that you are saved forever, and cannot lose your salvation. I stated this many times with reason.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 08:25 PM
I don't know where you guys are getting , "lost," but maybe you are talking about sheep.

I know that we can stop abiding in God though. And once we stop abiding in him, we get tossed out like a branch that withers. Then maybe we may get grafted back in again. What does abiding in God do? it makes us bear fruit. if we do not abide in God, we cannot bear fruit. simple. Do you want to bear fruit? then abide in god! otherwise, you cannot do anything. How do we abide in god? by keeping his commandments.

But please don't say that we will lose our salvation, because we cannot! No matter how hard you try!

Lost sheep can be found.

Lk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Lk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


2 Pet 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

You are either on the right way or the wrong way.

Firstfruits

david
Jan 6th 2011, 08:29 PM
Yes, but we do not know whether the path leading to destruction is the lake of fire, or the path leading to destruction is a short time of burning.

With those scriptures speaking about sheep going astray, we can merely speculate what going astray means, and not drawing meaning out of it. But I say that it means, "wandering far from the truth."

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20 (ESV)

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 08:30 PM
Answer me this, can you be on two roads at the same time, can you be right and wrong at the same time, can you be righteous and unrighteous at the same time, can you be saved and unsaved at the same time?

Firstfruits

Was Peter? Was Samson when he ate the honey from the lion? How many examples do I need to give of men who sinned but did not lose their salvation prior to them repenting?

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 08:32 PM
If we sin we are no different to those that are lost/not yet saved, and need to repent in order for our sin to be forgiven.

Firstfruits

And this is VERY bad doctrine. VERY bad.

Here's an example in scripture that simply blows that out of the water.

Samson sinned and ate honey from a dead lion. Yet, the Spirit of God was mightily upon him still. Was he lost?

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 08:34 PM
Yes, but we do not know whether the path leading to destruction is the lake of fire, or the path leading to destruction is a short time of burning.

What would you say concerning the following?

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat
Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Lk 13:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Firstfruits

david
Jan 6th 2011, 08:37 PM
Indeed: if the scriptures say,

Lk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Then it is talking about the second death and the eternal life.

Thus, if we cannot enter the strait gate, then we are not saved. And this means that we are all on the strait path. (or we are already in the strait gate).

RollTide21
Jan 6th 2011, 08:44 PM
Answer me this, can you be on two roads at the same time, can you be right and wrong at the same time, can you be righteous and unrighteous at the same time, can you be saved and unsaved at the same time?

FirstfruitsOf course not, to all questions. That is why your position is errant.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 08:46 PM
edit: i didn't see something...

There would then have to be a middle way/road, scripture only speaks of two roads.

If we are on the right road and we go astray, which other road would we be on?

Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Firstfruits

david
Jan 6th 2011, 08:48 PM
There would then have to be a middle way/road, scripture only speaks of two roads.

If we are on the right road and we go astray, which other road would we be on?

Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Firstfruits

Whether we are on the path that leads to destruction, or we are on the path that leads to life, we do not know.

There are two possibilities:

We either constantly change our paths from one to the other, or we are stuck with a path. Thus, we can merely speculate and not know what path of those two we are currently on.

But always remember, we cannot lose our eternal life. Which means if we are right at the gate of eternal destruction, God will automatically move us into the gate that leads to life.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 08:56 PM
Whether we are on the path that leads to destruction, or we are on the path that leads to life, we do not know.

There are two possibilities:

We either constantly change our paths from one to the other, or we are stuck with a path. Thus, we can merely speculate and not know what path of those two we are currently on.

But always remember, we cannot lose our eternal life. Which means if we are right at the gate of eternal destruction, God will automatically move us into the gate that leads to life.

Just a note regarding everlasting life, although we may not spend it in the same place, both good and bad will have it, so no, we cannot lose what is promised to all.

One road leads to heaven, there is only one other place the other road can lead to.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 08:56 PM
There would then have to be a middle way/road, scripture only speaks of two roads.

If we are on the right road and we go astray, which other road would we be on?

Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Firstfruits

Did Peter go astray when he was prideful and said he would not forsake Jesus?

Did Samson go astray when he ate from honey from the lion?

Which road were these two men on?

RollTide21
Jan 6th 2011, 08:56 PM
What would you say concerning the following?

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat
Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Lk 13:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

FirstfruitsThe question isn't that the gate is narrow. The question is how we walk through the gate.

david
Jan 6th 2011, 09:02 PM
The question isn't that the gate is narrow. The question is how we walk through the gate.

We are not graded on how we follow the light, we just follow the light.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 09:05 PM
The question isn't that the gate is narrow. The question is how we walk through the gate.

The following may shed some light on that.

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

How then did Jesus walk?

Firstfruits

david
Jan 6th 2011, 09:05 PM
Just a note regarding everlasting life, although we may not spend it in the same place, both good and bad will have it, so no, we cannot lose what is promised to all.

One road leads to heaven, there is only one other place the other road can lead to.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits

Are you saying there are only two paths? then yes, i agree.

But to say that we constantly change in between the paths may not be true, because we do not find that in the scriptures.

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 09:08 PM
The following may shed some light on that.

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

How then did Jesus walk?

Firstfruits

Walking uprightly is not the gate. Jesus is the gate.

John 10:7-8

7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
NASU

RollTide21
Jan 6th 2011, 09:11 PM
Whether we are on the path that leads to destruction, or we are on the path that leads to life, we do not know.

There are two possibilities:

We either constantly change our paths from one to the other, or we are stuck with a path. Thus, we can merely speculate and not know what path of those two we are currently on.

But always remember, we cannot lose our eternal life. Which means if we are right at the gate of eternal destruction, God will automatically move us into the gate that leads to life.Whoa. Wait. We don't know what path we are on? We can merely speculate?

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 09:12 PM
Walking uprightly is not the gate. Jesus is the gate.

John 10:7-8

7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
NASU

So with regards to this scripture how are we to walk?

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 09:15 PM
So with regards to this scripture how are we to walk?

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

Firstfruits

With regards to Samson, which road was he on when he did this?

Judg 14:7-9
7 So he went down and talked to the woman; and she looked good to Samson. 8 When he returned later to take her, he turned aside to look at the carcass of the lion; and behold, a swarm of bees and honey were in the body of the lion. 9 So he scraped the honey into his hands and went on, eating as he went.
NASU

Yet without repentance, we see this...

Judg 14:19

19 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily, and he went down to Ashkelon and killed thirty of them and took their spoil and gave the changes of clothes to those who told the riddle. And his anger burned, and he went up to his father's house.
NASU

Which road was Samson on after breaking his Nazarite vow and not repenting?

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 09:20 PM
With regards to Samson, which road was he on when he did this?

Judg 14:7-9
7 So he went down and talked to the woman; and she looked good to Samson. 8 When he returned later to take her, he turned aside to look at the carcass of the lion; and behold, a swarm of bees and honey were in the body of the lion. 9 So he scraped the honey into his hands and went on, eating as he went.
NASU

Yet without repentance, we see this...

Judg 14:19

19 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily, and he went down to Ashkelon and killed thirty of them and took their spoil and gave the changes of clothes to those who told the riddle. And his anger burned, and he went up to his father's house.
NASU

Which road was Samson on after breaking his Nazarite vow and not repenting?

At this moment we are concerned with how we are to walk with regards to this scripture.

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 09:29 PM
At this moment we are concerned with how we are to walk with regards to this scripture.

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

Firstfruits

We are concerned with why you refuse to answer the questions about Peter and Samson. Perhaps you don't answer them because they don't fit with your doctrinal statements.

david
Jan 6th 2011, 09:37 PM
Just a note regarding everlasting life, although we may not spend it in the same place, both good and bad will have it, so no, we cannot lose what is promised to all.

One road leads to heaven, there is only one other place the other road can lead to.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits

I take this to mean that Firstfruits does not believe in loss of salvation which is correct. I think she means that we can constantly switch in between the two paths (and there are only two paths), but in the end, we automatically get switched over into the gate of eternal life.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 09:48 PM
We are concerned with why you refuse to answer the questions about Peter and Samson. Perhaps you don't answer them because they don't fit with your doctrinal statements.

Because my question was about how we are to walk, in order to stay on the right road.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 09:56 PM
I take this to mean that Firstfruits does not believe in loss of salvation which is correct. I think she means that we can constantly switch in between the two paths (and there are only two paths), but in the end, we automatically get switched over into the gate of eternal life.

No, we all receive immortality.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This is for good and bad no matter what road we are on.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 10:03 PM
Because my question was about how we are to walk, in order to stay on the right road.

Firstfruits

Yet, you change the subject to suit yourself and speak of getting off the road. So let's stay on that track. Getting off the road.

When Samson ate the honey in the dead lion, and did not repent, was he lost?

I will keep making the point so that all who read this thread will know not to pay too close attention to your meme.

david
Jan 6th 2011, 10:04 PM
Because my question was about how we are to walk, in order to stay on the right road.

Firstfruits

But if we are already on the right path, then we do not to worry about anything else. That would be useless anxiety.

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 10:05 PM
Yea but if we're already on the right road, then we don't to worry about anything else. That would be useless worrying.

Right. We can have a Jesus focus or a sin focus. When sin is pointed out to us, we ought to repent. But sin is not our focus. Jesus is.

AndrewBaptistFL
Jan 6th 2011, 10:09 PM
Right. We can have a Jesus focus or a sin focus. When sin is pointed out to us, we ought to repent. But sin is not our focus. Jesus is.
Just to chime in for a moment and to add to what Mark said; even being free from sin can't be our focus, otherwise we strive to be free from sin and that freedom itself becomes our false Christ. Jesus is our key, our gate, our focal point and our fixture.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 10:09 PM
Yet, you change the subject to suit yourself and speak of getting off the road. So let's stay on that track. Getting off the road.

When Samson ate the honey in the dead lion, and did not repent, was he lost?

I will keep making the point so that all who read this thread will know not to pay too close attention to your meme.

What is the scripture you are refering to, and did God say not do what he did?

Firstfruits

david
Jan 6th 2011, 10:10 PM
Right. We can have a Jesus focus or a sin focus. When sin is pointed out to us, we ought to repent. But sin is not our focus. Jesus is.

What is true is that we should not be anxious about a thing; abide in God, otherwise, we will not bear fruit. Do you want to bear fruit at all? then abide in God by keeping his commandments.

Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”
Rev 22:11 (ESV)

Let those who want to do what they want to do do what they want to do. They will find out what happens. But feed them the word.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 10:11 PM
But if we are already on the right path, then we do not to worry about anything else. That would be useless anxiety.

How do know we are already on the right road, are we walking as Jesus walked?

Firstfruits

AndrewBaptistFL
Jan 6th 2011, 10:14 PM
How do know we are already on the right road, are we walking as Jesus walked?

Firstfruits

We can:
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

david
Jan 6th 2011, 10:15 PM
Just to chime in for a moment and to add to what Mark said; even being free from sin can't be our focus, otherwise we strive to be free from sin and that freedom itself becomes our false Christ. Jesus is our key, our gate, our focal point and our fixture.

Yes.
To you I lift up my eyes,
O you who are enthroned in the heavens!
Psalms 123:1 (ESV)

But my eyes are toward you, O God, my Lord;
in you I seek refuge; leave me not defenseless!
Psalms 141:8 (ESV)

My eyes are ever toward the Lord,
for he will pluck my feet out of the net.
Psalms 25:15 (ESV)

david
Jan 6th 2011, 10:16 PM
How do know we are already on the right road, are we walking as Jesus walked?

Firstfruits

I am sorry, i said that we didn't know which path we were on. This is incorrect. We know which path we are on by believing in his word and following them and keeping them and having faith in them.

Your word is a lamp to my feet
and a light to my path.
Psalms 119:105 (ESV)

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 10:19 PM
We can:
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

Thank you andrew_no_one,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 10:21 PM
I am sorry, i said that we didn't know which path we were on. This is incorrect. We know which path we are on by believing in his word and following them and keeping them and having faith in them.

Your word is a lamp to my feet
and a light to my path.
Psalms 119:105 (ESV)


Agreed!

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 10:27 PM
How do know we are already on the right road, are we walking as Jesus walked?

Firstfruits

Because when we sin, he disciplines us.


Heb 12:4-11

4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,

"MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
NASU

When Samson ate the honey, God disciplined him, proving that Samson belonged to God.

When Israel didn't keep the sabbath for 490 years, God disciplined them, proving that they belonged to God.

If you sin, and are not disciplined, then you are not a son.

Firstfruits
Jan 6th 2011, 10:35 PM
Because when we sin, he disciplines us.


Heb 12:4-11

4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,

"MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
NASU

When Samson ate the honey, God disciplined him, proving that Samson belonged to God.

When Israel didn't keep the sabbath for 490 years, God disciplined them, proving that they belonged to God.

If you sin, and are not disciplined, then you are not a son.

What is the scripture regarding Samson?

If you are on the right road why would you expect to be disciplined?

Firstfruits

RollTide21
Jan 6th 2011, 10:42 PM
What is the scripture regarding Samson?

If you are on the right road why would you expect to be disciplined?

Firstfruits Is it your contention that a Believer in Christ CAN be completely sinless, or is it your belief that we should always STRIVE to be sinless. Is sinless perfection attainable for a human being who is in Christ?

My answer to your question is simple. Because, even though I am on the right road, I still commit sins. I can't help it. I'm not perfect. So...if I stumble over a boulder in the road, I repent, ask God for help, and He picks me back up and sets me going again.

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2011, 10:49 PM
What is the scripture regarding Samson?

If you are on the right road why would you expect to be disciplined?

Firstfruits

Judg 14:7-9
7 So he went down and talked to the woman; and she looked good to Samson. 8 When he returned later to take her, he turned aside to look at the carcass of the lion; and behold, a swarm of bees and honey were in the body of the lion. 9 So he scraped the honey into his hands and went on, eating as he went. When he came to his father and mother, he gave some to them and they ate it; but he did not tell them that he had scraped the honey out of the body of the lion.
NASU

He sinned right there because he broke his vow. Later, he gave a riddle concerning the dead lion. When the Philistines solved it by asking the Philistine woman Samson was to marry the answer, (she nagged him into giving it to him), he got upset. Then before he ever repented, the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him.

Judg 14:19-20

19 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily, and he went down to Ashkelon and killed thirty of them and took their spoil and gave the changes of clothes to those who told the riddle. And his anger burned, and he went up to his father's house.
NASU

So we see, Samson sinned, did not repent for a long time, and yet, the Spirit of the Lord was still upon him mightily.

If you are on the right road, you are disciplined! But being on the right path doesn't mean you aren't sinning. Being on the right path means you are following Jesus and he is sanctifying you. We see the same thing with Peter.

He sinned with pride. Then Jesus asked him to come and pray with him. Peter repented much later after he was disciplined through sifting and then, and only then, was his eyes open to his sin. Prior to that, he wasn't aware he could deny Christ.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
NASU

When God chooses to reveal our sin to us, as we mature, we deal with it because he disciplines us. And if we persist in our rebellion, as Israel did, then we may go into captivity because we are his children. He didn't discipline the Chaldeans. He destroyed them. But he disciplines his children when they are rebellious. Even if they are rebellious like Israel for 490 years before he spanks them hard.

VerticalReality
Jan 7th 2011, 12:15 AM
Firstfruits --

In truth, brother, you appear to be dodging questions to such an extent it gives the appearance of dishonesty here. It would seem to me it would be much easier to truly examine why your beliefs in this thread have so many examples within the word of God conflicting with it. You, of course, can choose to do what you wish, but in the end your refusal to address pointblank questions that conflict with your doctrine gives the indication that you are dancing around the truth in order to hold on to what you have been teaching.

david
Jan 7th 2011, 01:40 AM
What is the scripture regarding Samson?

If you are on the right road why would you expect to be disciplined?

Firstfruits

Even if we are on the right road, we may still be disciplined. look at Job's example. He was righteous:

that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil
Job 1:1 (ESV)

And yet, Satan was allowed to do evil upon him (perhaps to discipline him).

discipline isn't bad, it is good:

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
James 1:2-4 (ESV)

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2011, 09:17 AM
Even if we are on the right road, we may still be disciplined. look at Job's example. He was righteous:

that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil
Job 1:1 (ESV)

And yet, Satan was allowed to do evil upon him (perhaps to discipline him).

discipline isn't bad, it is good:

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
James 1:2-4 (ESV)

In the case of Job, being tested I would not call that being disciplined.

Would you expect to be disciplined unless you have done something to be disciplined for?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2011, 09:27 AM
Firstfruits --

In truth, brother, you appear to be dodging questions to such an extent it gives the appearance of dishonesty here. It would seem to me it would be much easier to truly examine why your beliefs in this thread have so many examples within the word of God conflicting with it. You, of course, can choose to do what you wish, but in the end your refusal to address pointblank questions that conflict with your doctrine gives the indication that you are dancing around the truth in order to hold on to what you have been teaching.

With regards to the question about Samson, I had asked about how it means to walk as Christ walked, this is when I was asked about Samson, this I have explaned, and as you may have seen I requested the scriptures in question which I have now seen I have and will be studying and replying to when this is done.

Thanks for your concern.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2011, 01:10 PM
Judg 14:7-9
7 So he went down and talked to the woman; and she looked good to Samson. 8 When he returned later to take her, he turned aside to look at the carcass of the lion; and behold, a swarm of bees and honey were in the body of the lion. 9 So he scraped the honey into his hands and went on, eating as he went. When he came to his father and mother, he gave some to them and they ate it; but he did not tell them that he had scraped the honey out of the body of the lion.
NASU

He sinned right there because he broke his vow. Later, he gave a riddle concerning the dead lion. When the Philistines solved it by asking the Philistine woman Samson was to marry the answer, (she nagged him into giving it to him), he got upset. Then before he ever repented, the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him.

Judg 14:19-20

19 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily, and he went down to Ashkelon and killed thirty of them and took their spoil and gave the changes of clothes to those who told the riddle. And his anger burned, and he went up to his father's house.
NASU

So we see, Samson sinned, did not repent for a long time, and yet, the Spirit of the Lord was still upon him mightily.

If you are on the right road, you are disciplined! But being on the right path doesn't mean you aren't sinning. Being on the right path means you are following Jesus and he is sanctifying you. We see the same thing with Peter.

He sinned with pride. Then Jesus asked him to come and pray with him. Peter repented much later after he was disciplined through sifting and then, and only then, was his eyes open to his sin. Prior to that, he wasn't aware he could deny Christ.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
NASU

When God chooses to reveal our sin to us, as we mature, we deal with it because he disciplines us. And if we persist in our rebellion, as Israel did, then we may go into captivity because we are his children. He didn't discipline the Chaldeans. He destroyed them. But he disciplines his children when they are rebellious. Even if they are rebellious like Israel for 490 years before he spanks them hard.

With regards to Judges chapter 14, what is it that causes you to believe that Samson sinned?

What sin did Samson commit?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 02:03 PM
With regards to Judges chapter 14, what is it that causes you to believe that Samson sinned?

What sin did Samson commit?

Firstfruits

He broke his Nazirite vow.

Num 6:2-7

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord:

3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

5 All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the Lord, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.

6 All the days that he separateth himself unto the Lord he shall come at no dead body.

7 He shall not make himself unclean for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister, when they die: because the consecration of his God is upon his head.
KJV

A nazirite was not to be unclean by going near a dead body even if that body was that of his parents. Samson went back to the dead lion and took honey out of it and became unclean because he had touched a dead body.

Here is more of the law concerning dead carcases.

Lev 11:26-28

26 The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.

27 And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on all four, those are unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even.

28 And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they are unclean unto you.
KJV

Samson made himself unclean by going back to the lion's carcase and eating of the honey, and by doing so, he broke the vow of the Nazirite. Not just that, but he went after "strange" women which was a clear violation of the command given to Israel when they took the land. Samson had 2 sins and yet, the Spirit of the Lord was still with him.

Also, let's not forget Peter, who had pride, and still Jesus asked him to come and pray with him.

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2011, 02:54 PM
He broke his Nazirite vow.

Num 6:2-7

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord:

3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

5 All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the Lord, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.

6 All the days that he separateth himself unto the Lord he shall come at no dead body.

7 He shall not make himself unclean for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister, when they die: because the consecration of his God is upon his head.
KJV

A nazirite was not to be unclean by going near a dead body even if that body was that of his parents. Samson went back to the dead lion and took honey out of it and became unclean because he had touched a dead body.

Here is more of the law concerning dead carcases.

Lev 11:26-28

26 The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.

27 And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on all four, those are unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even.

28 And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they are unclean unto you.
KJV

Samson made himself unclean by going back to the lion's carcase and eating of the honey, and by doing so, he broke the vow of the Nazirite. Not just that, but he went after "strange" women which was a clear violation of the command given to Israel when they took the land. Samson had 2 sins and yet, the Spirit of the Lord was still with him.

Also, let's not forget Peter, who had pride, and still Jesus asked him to come and pray with him.

According to the scriptures, how long do the days of separation last?

Num 6:13 And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

Firstfruits

RabbiKnife
Jan 7th 2011, 02:56 PM
Depends on how long he made the vow for.

Vhayes
Jan 7th 2011, 02:57 PM
In the case of Job, being tested I would not call that being disciplined.

Would you expect to be disciplined unless you have done something to be disciplined for?

Firstfruits
When you pursue a career path and study particular courses to reach that final goal, what is it called?

Discipline does not mean correction - it means training.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 02:58 PM
According to the scriptures, how long do the days of separation last?

Num 6:13 And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

Firstfruits

For Samson, it was his whole life. When the days are over, the Nazirite was to cut his hair. When Samson's hair was cut, it meant his days of keeping his Nazirite vow was over and that made it a very serious offense because he was supposed to be a Nazirite for his whole life.

Num 6:13-18

13 'Now this is the law of the Nazirite when the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall bring the offering to the doorway of the tent of meeting. 14 'He shall present his offering to the Lord: one male lamb a year old without defect for a burnt offering and one ewe-lamb a year old without defect for a sin offering and one ram without defect for a peace offering, 15 and a basket of unleavened cakes of fine flour mixed with oil and unleavened wafers spread with oil, along with their grain offering and their drink offering. 16 'Then the priest shall present them before the Lord and shall offer his sin offering and his burnt offering. 17 'He shall also offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings to the Lord, together with the basket of unleavened cakes; the priest shall likewise offer its grain offering and its drink offering. 18 ' The Nazirite shall then shave his dedicated head of hair at the doorway of the tent of meeting, and take the dedicated hair of his head and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of peace offerings.
NASU

Samson's vow was for his life, not for a period of time.

Judg 13:7
"But he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'"
NASU

When he ate the honey from the carcase of that which had a paw, he touched and ate from an unclean thing, thus breaking the law and his vow.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 03:03 PM
When you pursue a career path and study particular courses to reach that final goal, what is it called?

Discipline does not mean correction - it means training.

Actually, it means both. It does mean correction in the context of Hebrews 12 (which is the context discipline was brought up in earlier in the thread). That's why the KJV translates it as "chastening" in Hebrews 12. It does mean training, but by implication, it means correction, chastisement, chastening, etc.

NT:3809

NT:3809 paideia (pahee-di'-ah); from NT:3811; tutorage, i.e. education or training; by implication, disciplinary correction:

KJV - chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

RabbiKnife
Jan 7th 2011, 03:04 PM
Just a silly question.....

Has any Christian ever said that any Christian SHOULD continue to sin? Ever?

Vhayes
Jan 7th 2011, 03:07 PM
Actually, it means both. It does mean correction in the context of Hebrews 12 (which is the context discipline was brought up in earlier in the thread). That's why the KJV translates it as "chastening" in Hebrews 12. It does mean training, but by implication, it means correction, chastisement, chastening, etc.

NT:3809

NT:3809 paideia (pahee-di'-ah); from NT:3811; tutorage, i.e. education or training; by implication, disciplinary correction:

KJV - chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It is always forward looking. Punishment is always looking backwards. People confuse the two. A tutor has the best in mind for the pupil. Does that make sense?

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 03:12 PM
It is always forward looking. Punishment is always looking backwards. People confuse the two. A tutor has the best in mind for the pupil. Does that make sense?

I understand what you are saying V. But God does whip us. That's what chastening is. He is the one who talks about if a parent loves a child they will not spare the rod. He has a rod too and he uses it. But the focus is of course forward looking. It always is except for the unbeliever who goes to hell. But then, God doesn't chasten the unbeliever, only the believer.

Prov 13:24

24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
KJV

The rod doesn't teach, it "punishes" which leads to proper learning. I know the word "punish" is something we have to be careful about. But when God does it, it's for our own good. I think chasten is a much better word and that is why I put "punish" in quotes.

BTW, I don't think Job was being chastened so much as he was being tested. Peter was chastened, IMO.

Vhayes
Jan 7th 2011, 03:14 PM
How does punishment lead to proper learning?

Please understand, I am not saying God does not correct us - He does.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 03:17 PM
How does punishment lead to proper learning?

Please understand, I am not saying God does not correct us - He does.

Let me ask another question. What is the purpose of a rod?

Prov 22:15

15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
KJV

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2011, 03:21 PM
Depends on how long he made the vow for.

Is the time not set concerning that vow?

Does that person not continue to belong to God when the days of separation are fulfilled?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2011, 03:23 PM
When you pursue a career path and study particular courses to reach that final goal, what is it called?

Discipline does not mean correction - it means training.

So if we are being trained it does not mean we have done anything wrong?

Firstfruits

RabbiKnife
Jan 7th 2011, 03:23 PM
Is the time not set concerning that vow?

Firstfruits

No..............

Vhayes
Jan 7th 2011, 03:25 PM
So if we are being trained it does not mean we have done anything wrong?

Firstfruits
Not at all. We are trained in the correct/proper way of doing things. We may have been doing something the wrong way for years - training shows us how to "do" it correctly. But that is not punishment.

Quickened
Jan 7th 2011, 03:25 PM
Paul's letter to the Corinthians was to:
God's Church
Those who are sanctified
Those who are called as saints. (1:2)

These people didn't cease being believers or children of God because of their boasting, divisions, sexual immorality(5), immaturity, misunderstanding of spiritual gifts or profaning the Lord's supper. They were in need of correction which is what the letter to Corinth is. Paul never mentioned that they ceased to be saved. Instead he intended to correct the areas where they went wrong.

There is this expectation of repentence and holy living but at no point do we lose our salvation should we fall in an area.

Did David lose his salvation when he sinned in 2 Samuel 11? We see in Psalm 51 that David is calling out to God asking him to "return the joy of my salvation" not "return my salvation".

Works of the law cannot have any bearing on our salvation because we are not saved by works of the law. The law is the schoolmaster which brings us to Christ. To show where we lack which in turn amplifies our need of Christ. It should draw us closer to Him.

Think of Galatians 3:11 it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law because the righteous shall live by faith.

Thats the main point Paul is hammering on in Galatians. Judaizers in the area were attempting to bring believers back under the law teaching circumcision, observance of days (4:10) etc. Paul has a huge emphasis on faith faith faith.

Though there is this huge emphasis on faith Paul also admonishes them to walk by the spirit. Why? He isn't paving the way for doing whatever you want just because you are saved. You have liberty in Christ finally.

Prior to us being saved we could sin various sins and be none the wiser. Now that we are saved we see sin, we know God's expectations, we can handle temptation differently then the unsaved man. We can pray, we can remember "wait quickened... doing this would be sin. Remember these fruits.." things like that.

Though you may sin... strive to walk according to God.
Should we continue to sin? Would any of us ever tell someone is "a-ok" to sin. No. But it happens.

Vhayes
Jan 7th 2011, 03:27 PM
Let me ask another question. What is the purpose of a rod?

Prov 22:15

15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
KJV
Are you speaking of a shepherds rod and staff?

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 03:28 PM
Not at all. We are trained in the correct/proper way of doing things. We may have been doing something the wrong way for years - training shows us how to "do" it correctly. But that is not punishment.

There is a difference between chastening and pruning. Pruning is teaching how to do it right. Chastening is what happens when we rebel against the pruning. Both are included in discipline/training.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 03:29 PM
Are you speaking of a shepherds rod and staff?

What is a "rod of correction"? Does God ever chasten? Chastise? Whip? Or "punish"? I know you don't like the word punish and for good reason. Perfect love cast out torment. If you prefer, I will stop using it.

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2011, 03:31 PM
Not at all. We are trained in the correct/proper way of doing things. We may have been doing something the wrong way for years - training shows us how to "do" it correctly. But that is not punishment.

Thank you Vhayes,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2011, 03:32 PM
No..............

Is there any indication of how long Samsons vow was to last?

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Jan 7th 2011, 03:33 PM
What is a "rod of correction"?
Please give me a verse.

Also, please answer my question asking what you meant by saying punishment leads to proper learning.

RabbiKnife
Jan 7th 2011, 03:33 PM
Is there any indication of how long Samsons vow was to last?

Firstfruits

His was to last for life.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 03:36 PM
Is there any indication of how long Samsons vow was to last?

Firstfruits

You missed my post on the previous page. He was to be a Nazirite from birth till death according to the Lord.

Vhayes
Jan 7th 2011, 03:37 PM
What is a "rod of correction"? Does God ever chasten? Chastise? Whip? Or "punish"? I know you don't like the word punish and for good reason. Perfect love cast out torment. If you prefer, I will stop using it.
Wasn't throd of correction used to "guide" the sheep onto the right path when they appeared to be heading for trouble? It wasn't used to club them - it was used to change their direction.

It isn't that the word "punish" bothers me, it's that many unbelievers see God as a tyrant and He is not. Tyrants punish people. Father's guide, correct and instruct.

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2011, 03:39 PM
His was to last for life.

Judg 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 03:42 PM
Please give me a verse.

Also, please answer my question asking what you meant by saying punishment leads to proper learning.

When rebellion comes in, does God punish?

When Israel went 490 years and did not keep the sabbath years, he raised up the Chaldeans. He did something so astonishing, that people have a hard time believing it.

Hab 1:5

5 " Look among the nations! Observe!
Be astonished! Wonder!
Because I am doing something in your days —
You would not believe if you were told.
NASU

This is what God did.

Hab 1:5-11

5 " Look among the nations! Observe!Be astonished! Wonder!Because I am doing something in your days —You would not believe if you were told. 6 "For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans,That fierce and impetuous peopleWho march throughout the earthTo seize dwelling places which are not theirs. 7 "They are dreaded and feared;Their justice and authority originate with themselves. 8 "Their horses are swifter than leopardsAnd keener than wolves in the evening.Their horsemen come galloping,Their horsemen come from afar;They fly like an eagle swooping down to devour. 9 "All of them come for violence. Their horde of faces moves forward.They collect captives like sand. 10 "They mock at kingsAnd rulers are a laughing matter to them.They laugh at every fortressAnd heap up rubble to capture it. 11 "Then they will sweep through like the wind and pass on.But they will be held guilty,They whose strength is their god."
NASU

He raised up a wicked people that had no mercy. And then he used them against his own people. Why? Habbakuk asked the same thing.

Hab 1:13
13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil,
And You can not look on wickedness with favor.
Why do You look with favor
On those who deal treacherously?
Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up
Those more righteous than they?
NASU

and it was answered in the previous verse.

Hab 1:12

12 Are You not from everlasting,
O Lord, my God, my Holy One?
We will not die.
You, O Lord, have appointed them to judge;
And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.
NASU

How did they correct Israel? By taking them into bondage. They lost their freedom. They were made slaves. Many died, but Israel did not die. They were whipped.

We see the same principle in the NT in 1 Cor. 5.

When someone gets rebellious, God will put them into bondage and let the enemy reign over them until they learn better. Israel learned. But they were rebellious for a long, long time. This pattern with God is seen throughout the scriptures.

Neh. 9 speaks about. Psalms 107 speaks about it.

When a student refuses to obey and do it the right way, when they are rebellious, the "rod of correct" comes out and they are spanked. Then, they will obey and learn because foolishness that was bound up in their heart, was driven out.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 03:44 PM
Judg 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

Firstfruits

Perhaps you missed this post from earlier FF... It was in response to your questions.

===============================================
For Samson, it was his whole life. When the days are over, the Nazirite was to cut his hair. When Samson's hair was cut, it meant his days of keeping his Nazirite vow was over and that made it a very serious offense because he was supposed to be a Nazirite for his whole life.

Num 6:13-18

13 'Now this is the law of the Nazirite when the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall bring the offering to the doorway of the tent of meeting. 14 'He shall present his offering to the Lord: one male lamb a year old without defect for a burnt offering and one ewe-lamb a year old without defect for a sin offering and one ram without defect for a peace offering, 15 and a basket of unleavened cakes of fine flour mixed with oil and unleavened wafers spread with oil, along with their grain offering and their drink offering. 16 'Then the priest shall present them before the Lord and shall offer his sin offering and his burnt offering. 17 'He shall also offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings to the Lord, together with the basket of unleavened cakes; the priest shall likewise offer its grain offering and its drink offering. 18 ' The Nazirite shall then shave his dedicated head of hair at the doorway of the tent of meeting, and take the dedicated hair of his head and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of peace offerings.
NASU

Samson's vow was for his life, not for a period of time.

Judg 13:7
"But he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'"
NASU

When he ate the honey from the carcase of that which had a paw, he touched and ate from an unclean thing, thus breaking the law and his vow.

RabbiKnife
Jan 7th 2011, 03:46 PM
Yeah. That's what I said.

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2011, 04:07 PM
Perhaps you missed this post from earlier FF... It was in response to your questions.

===============================================
For Samson, it was his whole life. When the days are over, the Nazirite was to cut his hair. When Samson's hair was cut, it meant his days of keeping his Nazirite vow was over and that made it a very serious offense because he was supposed to be a Nazirite for his whole life.

Num 6:13-18

13 'Now this is the law of the Nazirite when the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall bring the offering to the doorway of the tent of meeting. 14 'He shall present his offering to the Lord: one male lamb a year old without defect for a burnt offering and one ewe-lamb a year old without defect for a sin offering and one ram without defect for a peace offering, 15 and a basket of unleavened cakes of fine flour mixed with oil and unleavened wafers spread with oil, along with their grain offering and their drink offering. 16 'Then the priest shall present them before the Lord and shall offer his sin offering and his burnt offering. 17 'He shall also offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings to the Lord, together with the basket of unleavened cakes; the priest shall likewise offer its grain offering and its drink offering. 18 ' The Nazirite shall then shave his dedicated head of hair at the doorway of the tent of meeting, and take the dedicated hair of his head and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of peace offerings.
NASU

Samson's vow was for his life, not for a period of time.

Judg 13:7
"But he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'"
NASU

When he ate the honey from the carcase of that which had a paw, he touched and ate from an unclean thing, thus breaking the law and his vow.

Thanks Brother Mark,

It is understood that Samson broke his vow. Is there any scripture to say that he repented of what he had done, or is it accepted that he did?

Firstfruits

RabbiKnife
Jan 7th 2011, 04:09 PM
God apparently heard his prayer and restored his strength to him sufficient to bring down the house.

Hebrews 11:32 lists him as one of God's heroes of faith.

Firstfruits
Jan 7th 2011, 04:18 PM
God apparently heard his prayer and restored his strength to him sufficient to bring down the house.

Hebrews 11:32 lists him as one of God's heroes of faith.

Can we use Samson as an example of how we should walk, or does the following suffice for believers?

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1 Pet 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

Firstfruits

RabbiKnife
Jan 7th 2011, 04:21 PM
Samson is a great example of a man loved by God, used mightily by God, who failed to live a holy life but who was never abandoned by God, and who that God called a man of great faith, regardless of that man's shortcomings.

Vhayes
Jan 7th 2011, 04:23 PM
VHayes:
Also, please answer my question asking what you meant by saying punishment leads to proper learning.

BrotherMark:
When rebellion comes in, does God punish?

Rebellion is not making mistakes or errors - it is willful defiance. Correct?

RollTide21
Jan 7th 2011, 04:25 PM
Can we use Samson as an example of how we should walk, or does the following suffice for believers?

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1 Pet 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

FirstfruitsNone in this thread would argue about how we should walk. The point about Samson was that we aren't immediately separated from God when we sin. We simply break fellowship with the Spirit and must be restored via repentance.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 04:27 PM
Rebellion is not making mistakes or errors - it is willful defiance. Correct?

Yep. And that is when the rod is necessary. The rod prepares the heart for learning because in rebellion, learning and obeying are rejected.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 04:29 PM
Thanks Brother Mark,

It is understood that Samson broke his vow. Is there any scripture to say that he repented of what he had done, or is it accepted that he did?

Firstfruits

He didn't repent till he brought the house down. That's the point. Same with Peter. Both had issues that they refused to deal with until it cost them so much, they repented. Samson didn't live a great holy life, but he was found in the hall of faith in Hebrews 11. God never gave up on the man and still used him mightily despite his short comings.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 04:30 PM
Samson is a great example of a man loved by God, used mightily by God, who failed to live a holy life but who was never abandoned by God, and who that God called a man of great faith, regardless of that man's shortcomings.

Bingo......................

Vhayes
Jan 7th 2011, 04:31 PM
Yep. And that is when the rod is necessary. The rod prepares the heart for learning because in rebellion, learning and obeying are rejected.
But that is not the "normal" use for the rod - it is to be used for guidance and direction. It is only used to break legs (literally) when there is danger of death if the sheep is headed straight for a cliff - right?

RollTide21
Jan 7th 2011, 04:39 PM
Rebellion is not making mistakes or errors - it is willful defiance. Correct?Can you give some examples of sin that are simply mistakes or errors? Sin has the factor of motive.

As for the debate you are having with BM, is a factor of God's discipline "punishment"? I suppose it depends on how you characterize punishment. When I think of punishment from my own dad, it was an unpleasant experience that I was forced to endure so that I might learn a lesson. Does God do this? I think yes.

Did I even disagree with anybody with this post? LOL>

david
Jan 7th 2011, 06:18 PM
Samson is a great example of a man loved by God, used mightily by God, who failed to live a holy life but who was never abandoned by God, and who that God called a man of great faith, regardless of that man's shortcomings.

If you think that's amazing, look how many times Israel abandoned God. Israel appointed a king where God said not to, Israel kept going against God in the desert, Israel kept sinning, and yet, God still stayed with her. He is full of grace and mercy.

Vhayes
Jan 7th 2011, 06:22 PM
Can you give some examples of sin that are simply mistakes or errors? Sin has the factor of motive.

As for the debate you are having with BM, is a factor of God's discipline "punishment"? I suppose it depends on how you characterize punishment. When I think of punishment from my own dad, it was an unpleasant experience that I was forced to endure so that I might learn a lesson. Does God do this? I think yes.

Did I even disagree with anybody with this post? LOL>
When a person is a new believer, they may well recognize overt sin as sin but do they recognize gossip as a sin? Overeating? Worry and excessive concern? Judgmental attitudes towards unbelievers? Or are these things "taught" by the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the new believer matures?

In other words, as soon as a person becomes a child of God, does God stand with His hands on His hips to beat the child for any and all mistakes? That's the view many unbelievers have of God and it's not a correct view, in my opinion.

RollTide21
Jan 7th 2011, 07:00 PM
When a person is a new believer, they may well recognize overt sin as sin but do they recognize gossip as a sin? Overeating? Worry and excessive concern? Judgmental attitudes towards unbelievers? Or are these things "taught" by the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the new believer matures?

In other words, as soon as a person becomes a child of God, does God stand with His hands on His hips to beat the child for any and all mistakes? That's the view many unbelievers have of God and it's not a correct view, in my opinion.Point taken on "mistakes and errors". Good examples. I still would contend that the discipline in those cases would extend some type of "punishment".

Quickened
Jan 7th 2011, 09:25 PM
When a person is a new believer, they may well recognize overt sin as sin but do they recognize gossip as a sin? Overeating? Worry and excessive concern? Judgmental attitudes towards unbelievers? Or are these things "taught" by the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the new believer matures?

In other words, as soon as a person becomes a child of God, does God stand with His hands on His hips to beat the child for any and all mistakes? That's the view many unbelievers have of God and it's not a correct view, in my opinion.

Right! Our knowledge of sin grows. People have a tendency to know the obvious ones (Murder, Adultery) but may not know what scripture says about things like gossip or other sins that people don't necessarily focus on.

But when we think we are walking rightly i always remember the 10th. To covet. In what areas do i wish i had something not my own. Perhaps that nice house my neighbor has or a better car. This has to be one of the most overlooked commandments today

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 10:39 PM
But that is not the "normal" use for the rod - it is to be used for guidance and direction. It is only used to break legs (literally) when there is danger of death if the sheep is headed straight for a cliff - right?

But that shepherds rod is not what proverbs is referring to when it speaks of the rod and the child. It is a rod of correction. The chaldeans were a rod of correction.

There are other places in scripture where the shepherds rod is spoken of such as the 23 Psalms.

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2011, 10:46 PM
When a person is a new believer, they may well recognize overt sin as sin but do they recognize gossip as a sin? Overeating? Worry and excessive concern? Judgmental attitudes towards unbelievers? Or are these things "taught" by the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the new believer matures?

In other words, as soon as a person becomes a child of God, does God stand with His hands on His hips to beat the child for any and all mistakes? That's the view many unbelievers have of God and it's not a correct view, in my opinion.

This is a very good point. When we train a young child, we have to potty train that child. We don't get upset when he messes his diaper or if he cries in church, etc. He doesn't know any better. But let a 10 year old act like he's 3, and then we have an issue.

When someone is teachable, a rod of correction is not necessary. The rod of correction is for rebellion. But often, there are things down the road we cannot learn if we are rebellious which is why a rod can assist in training/learning. For instance, if a child rebels in class and refuses to learn about addition, then he will not be able to learn about multiplication and division and eventually calculus. First, the rebellion must be dealt with, then the child can learn again, and begin walking along the road of progress.

I have often been frustrated with some in the church because a person gets saved and right away the church expects the person to give up smoking, or some other thing that they are bothered about. When Israel came out of Egypt, God dealt with 2 kings right away. But the vast majority of kings in the land were not dealt with until Israel had sufficient knowledge of who God was and how he worked. That's why they camped around Sinai for so long. God himself led them away from the enemy for a time because they were "not ready for war". Or as First John says "Children, rejoice that your sins are forgiven". In time, God taught them about warfare and overcoming and they took the land. It is the same with the major issues in our heart.

For someone newly saved, let them rejoice that their sins are forgiven. God will deal with them about holiness and the internal cross and overcoming in due time.

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2011, 12:25 PM
Samson is a great example of a man loved by God, used mightily by God, who failed to live a holy life but who was never abandoned by God, and who that God called a man of great faith, regardless of that man's shortcomings.

I agree with you, however we are warned about not living holy lives.

Rom 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

1 Tim 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

So for all God's love for Samson it does not excuse how we live.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2011, 12:30 PM
He didn't repent till he brought the house down. That's the point. Same with Peter. Both had issues that they refused to deal with until it cost them so much, they repented. Samson didn't live a great holy life, but he was found in the hall of faith in Hebrews 11. God never gave up on the man and still used him mightily despite his short comings.

Would you agree that although Samson was loved and used by God we are not to do that which is unrighteous?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 8th 2011, 12:49 PM
Would you agree that although Samson was loved and used by God we are not to do that which is unrighteous?

Firstfruits

Of course. Would you agree that man can sin, go a long time before repenting, and still be saved? (No one recommends this kind of action as it comes with a great cost and does not please God.)

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2011, 01:08 PM
Of course. Would you agree that man can sin, go a long time before repenting, and still be saved? (No one recommends this kind of action as it comes with a great cost and does not please God.)

I cannot say that is so, because they would not be in the faith which is unto righteousness.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith.

As long as they remain in unrepentance they are not safe.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

I could not say otherwise.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 8th 2011, 01:19 PM
I cannot say that is so, because they would not be in the faith which is unto righteousness.

Then you disagree with the story of Samson and Peter.


Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith.

Of course. Samson still had faith even after he broke his vow and that is evidence by the fact the Spirit came mightily upon him.


As long as they remain in unrepentance they are not safe.

Sin is always dangerous.


Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

I could not say otherwise.

That verse applies to a lost man, not to a saved man.

So all that about Samson and Peter and you still disagree with their example? Should I name more? There are more.

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2011, 06:17 PM
Then you disagree with the story of Samson and Peter.



Of course. Samson still had faith even after he broke his vow and that is evidence by the fact the Spirit came mightily upon him.



Sin is always dangerous.



That verse applies to a lost man, not to a saved man.

So all that about Samson and Peter and you still disagree with their example? Should I name more? There are more.

That we can take a chance on sinning hoping that God does not call us before we have the chance to repent is not according to scripture. The example we are given to follow is Jesus.

Paul said follow me as I follow Christ, what has changed?

If it was okay, why is there a need to examine ourselves whether or not we are in the faith?

If we have sinned, why hold on to it, and what is the danger of doing so?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 8th 2011, 06:23 PM
That we can take a chance on sinning hoping that God does not call us before we have the chance to repent is not according to scripture.

Scripture shows that Samson was still saved after he broke his vow by eating from the carcase. As a matter of fact, the Holy Spirit came on him mightily before he ever repented! So not only was he still saved, but he was still walking in power.

Peter is another one. He refused Jesus word and then Jesus asked him to pray for him. Jesus valued Peter's prayers even when Peter had pride in his heart. Peter wasn't lost then.



The example we are given to follow is Jesus.

Of course.


Paul said follow me as I follow Christ, what has changed?

If it was okay, why is there a need to examine ourselves whether or not we are in the faith?

If we have sinned, why hold on to it, and what is the danger of doing so?

Firstfruits

One is not following Jesus when he preaches that one sin that is yet unrepented of means one is lost. No one is advocating holding on to sin. Not sure why you keep going there. Jesus example was to ask Peter to pray for him even when Peter had the sin of pride. The examples of God in scripture was that God still favored Samson even when Samson willfully broke his vow by eating of the carcase.

Will you follow these examples of God's behavior by word and deed?

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2011, 07:24 PM
Scripture shows that Samson was still saved after he broke his vow by eating from the carcase. As a matter of fact, the Holy Spirit came on him mightily before he ever repented! So not only was he still saved, but he was still walking in power.

Peter is another one. He refused Jesus word and then Jesus asked him to pray for him. Jesus valued Peter's prayers even when Peter had pride in his heart. Peter wasn't lost then.




Of course.



One is not following Jesus when he preaches that one sin that is yet unrepented of means one is lost. No one is advocating holding on to sin. Not sure why you keep going there. Jesus example was to ask Peter to pray for him even when Peter had the sin of pride. The examples of God in scripture was that God still favored Samson even when Samson willfully broke his vow by eating of the carcase.

Will you follow these examples of God's behavior by word and deed?

According to the following to do so would make us liars.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If we say that we abide in Christ, when did sin become an option?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 8th 2011, 07:33 PM
According to the following to do so would make us liars.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If we say that we abide in Christ, when did sin become an option?

Firstfruits

Was Samson still a believer (saved) when the Holy Spirit came on him in power but he had not yet repented of eating the honey?

Was Peter still a believer (saved) when he pridefully rejected Christ word and Jesus asked him to pray for him?

BroRog
Jan 8th 2011, 07:50 PM
According to the following to do so would make us liars.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If we say that we abide in Christ, when did sin become an option?

FirstfruitsWhen did not sinning become an option?

Stan777
Jan 8th 2011, 08:02 PM
What I am asking is that if we are saved shall we continue to sin?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Are we not dead to sin?

Firstfruits

Yes we are dead to sin and alive with Christ, but if you practice sin like the unrighteous, you will have your part in the lake of fire, saved or not.

1 Corinthians 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2011, 08:34 PM
When did not sinning become an option?

When Jesus commanded us to love one another. Sin is opposit to Christ's command.

1 Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2011, 08:35 PM
Yes we are dead to sin and alive with Christ, but if you practice sin like the unrighteous, you will have your part in the lake of fire, saved or not.

1 Corinthians 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Thank you Stan777,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 8th 2011, 08:41 PM
Was Samson still a believer (saved) when the Holy Spirit came on him in power but he had not yet repented of eating the honey?

Was Peter still a believer (saved) when he pridefully rejected Christ word and Jesus asked him to pray for him?

So from your point of view there is a place for sin in the life of believers?

Lk 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

Jn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

1 Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Are we truly in God when we sin?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 8th 2011, 09:26 PM
So from your point of view there is a place for sin in the life of believers?

Where did I say that? There should be no place for sin in our life. But that doesn't mean it's not there.


Lk 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

Jn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

1 Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Are we truly in God when we sin?

Firstfruits

Yes we are truly "in God" even when we sin. And He is "in us". What of Samson? What of Peter? Was Samson "truly in God" when he ate the honey?

Thing is, once someone realizes they are "in him" and "accepted in the beloved" they will start having more victory over sin than before!

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 09:08 AM
Where did I say that? There should be no place for sin in our life. But that doesn't mean it's not there.



Yes we are truly "in God" even when we sin. And He is "in us". What of Samson? What of Peter? Was Samson "truly in God" when he ate the honey?

Thing is, once someone realizes they are "in him" and "accepted in the beloved" they will start having more victory over sin than before!

The following scripture does not agree with what you have said.

1 Jn 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1 Jn 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 Jn 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 Jn 3:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

How are we to abide?

1 Jn 2:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1 Jn 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

When we sin we are not abiding in the truth, and we cannot have confidence when Jesus comes.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2011, 02:36 PM
The following scripture does not agree with what you have said.

1 Jn 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1 Jn 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 Jn 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 Jn 3:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

How are we to abide?

1 Jn 2:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1 Jn 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

When we sin we are not abiding in the truth, and we cannot have confidence when Jesus comes.

Firstfruits

The following scripture does not agree with what you just said.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
NASU

Why did Jesus ask Peter, who had the sin of pride in him, to pray for him?

Why did the Holy Spirit fall in power on Samson after he broke his vow to God?

When God disciplined Israel for breaking his law for 490 years, did he still consider them HIS chosen people?

Was Lot considered righteous even though he set his tent toward Sodom and dwelt there?

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 05:05 PM
The following scripture does not agree with what you just said.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
NASU

Why did Jesus ask Peter, who had the sin of pride in him, to pray for him?

Why did the Holy Spirit fall in power on Samson after he broke his vow to God?

When God disciplined Israel for breaking his law for 490 years, did he still consider them HIS chosen people?

Was Lot considered righteous even though he set his tent toward Sodom and dwelt there?

No one has said we have not sinned, but once we have come to Christ should we continue to sin?

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

We all need to repent in order for our sins to be forgiven.

Shall we continue to sin?

Firstfruits

ShawnW
Jan 9th 2011, 05:39 PM
So if we are saved by grace, and we sin are we going againts the will of God?

Is sin still forbidden?

Firstfruits

Believers do not take God by surprise with their sins. I believe most if not all Christians still sin on occasion. Some and possibly many still have compulsive, premeditated sin. I have seen too much of it in the church to think otherwise. Are these individuals not saved? Must we complete the work of salvation? Or has the blood of Christ paid the price for the sin? Is it I who sins, or the sin that lives within me?

So, onto your question we are saved by the blood of Christ. I believe God uses everything, even our sin to our benefit. This might be a tough pill to swallow for some but our sin can be used to further mature us in Christ. In our sin, and disobedience we find the futility of sin. We long for relationship which seems to escape us when we sin. We want to have peace, joy but are left with feelings of guilt and emptiness. So if we perservere and press toward God as he drags us through the process of sanctification. We learn to live in the fire which purifies us of all sin.

The notion that we are delivered from every vice and sin at the alter has never sat well with me. The process of sanctification is driven by the fact that we learn about the futility of sin. So when Paul talks about us being under grace, yet we shouldn't continue to sin I believe he is speaking about what we should strive for which is a life of holiness and relationship. I don't believe that happens overnight for most, if any. So, no we shouldn't sin yet we do.
All things work together for good to those who love God.

ShawnW
Jan 9th 2011, 06:16 PM
Yes we are dead to sin and alive with Christ, but if you practice sin like the unrighteous, you will have your part in the lake of fire, saved or not.

1 Corinthians 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So, are you saying you never sin? Or do you count yourself as one of those who will be tortured for eternity?

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2011, 06:25 PM
No one has said we have not sinned, but once we have come to Christ should we continue to sin?

You have implied you must have no sin to be with Christ.


Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

We all need to repent in order for our sins to be forgiven.

Shall we continue to sin?

Firstfruits


No one should continue in sin but some believers do continue in sin for a while. I mention the examples again until you address them.

Why did Jesus ask Peter, who had the sin of pride in him, to pray for him?

Why did the Holy Spirit fall in power on Samson after he broke his vow to God?

When God disciplined Israel for breaking his law for 490 years, did he still consider them HIS chosen people?

Was Lot considered righteous even though he set his tent toward Sodom and dwelt there?

ShawnW
Jan 9th 2011, 06:36 PM
You have implied you must have no sin to be with Christ.




No one should continue in sin but some believers do continue in sin for a while. I mention the examples again until you address them.

Why did Jesus ask Peter, who had the sin of pride in him, to pray for him?

Why did the Holy Spirit fall in power on Samson after he broke his vow to God?

When God disciplined Israel for breaking his law for 490 years, did he still consider them HIS chosen people?

Was Lot considered righteous even though he set his tent toward Sodom and dwelt there?



I have to agree. To say we have to be without sin in order to be saved is a doctrine of works...Law. It invalidates the blood of Christ. Christ paid the price for all...he didn't pay a portion of the debt. He paid it in full. Personally, I am not sure perfection is obtainable in this life. But, it surely is the goal. It is the mark for which we strive. If we are content wallowing in our sins then I must wonder if we truly have faith in Jesus. We should be deeply effected by our sin. We experience the pain of sin, the futility of sin and when our sin has reached maturation it kills us. We die to self. We fully submit to the flame of puification and live in relationship. What we are talking about here is sanctification. So, some would assert that unless you have been sanctified to the point of perfection then you will never enter the Kingdom. Guess there will be very few if any entering the gates if that is true.

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 07:30 PM
Believers do not take God by surprise with their sins. I believe most if not all Christians still sin on occasion. Some and possibly many still have compulsive, premeditated sin. I have seen too much of it in the church to think otherwise. Are these individuals not saved? Must we complete the work of salvation? Or has the blood of Christ paid the price for the sin? Is it I who sins, or the sin that lives within me?

So, onto your question we are saved by the blood of Christ. I believe God uses everything, even our sin to our benefit. This might be a tough pill to swallow for some but our sin can be used to further mature us in Christ. In our sin, and disobedience we find the futility of sin. We long for relationship which seems to escape us when we sin. We want to have peace, joy but are left with feelings of guilt and emptiness. So if we perservere and press toward God as he drags us through the process of sanctification. We learn to live in the fire which purifies us of all sin.

The notion that we are delivered from every vice and sin at the alter has never sat well with me. The process of sanctification is driven by the fact that we learn about the futility of sin. So when Paul talks about us being under grace, yet we shouldn't continue to sin I believe he is speaking about what we should strive for which is a life of holiness and relationship. I don't believe that happens overnight for most, if any. So, no we shouldn't sin yet we do.
All things work together for good to those who love God.

How can He use our sin if our sin has been removed?

Ps 103:12 As far As the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 07:32 PM
I have to agree. To say we have to be without sin in order to be saved is a doctrine of works...Law. It invalidates the blood of Christ. Christ paid the price for all...he didn't pay a portion of the debt. He paid it in full. Personally, I am not sure perfection is obtainable in this life. But, it surely is the goal. It is the mark for which we strive. If we are content wallowing in our sins then I must wonder if we truly have faith in Jesus. We should be deeply effected by our sin. We experience the pain of sin, the futility of sin and when our sin has reached maturation it kills us. We die to self. We fully submit to the flame of puification and live in relationship. What we are talking about here is sanctification. So, some would assert that unless you have been sanctified to the point of perfection then you will never enter the Kingdom. Guess there will be very few if any entering the gates if that is true.

According to the scriptures there is no sin in God, so for us to be in God with sin is contrary to scripture.

There is no sin in God.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2011, 07:39 PM
According to the scriptures there is no sin in God, so for us to be in God with sin is contrary to scripture.

There is no sin in God.

Firstfruits

According to the scriptures he who says he has no sin has deceived himself.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
NASU

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 07:41 PM
You have implied you must have no sin to be with Christ.




No one should continue in sin but some believers do continue in sin for a while. I mention the examples again until you address them.

Why did Jesus ask Peter, who had the sin of pride in him, to pray for him?

Why did the Holy Spirit fall in power on Samson after he broke his vow to God?

When God disciplined Israel for breaking his law for 490 years, did he still consider them HIS chosen people?

Was Lot considered righteous even though he set his tent toward Sodom and dwelt there?

If we have done that which is contrary to what Christ has commanded we must confess our sin before we are again right with him.

Firstfruits


1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

ShawnW
Jan 9th 2011, 07:43 PM
If we have done that which is contrary to what Christ has commanded we must confess our sin before we are again right with him.

Firstfruits


1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So, if a man who has lived for Christ all his life lets out a profanity before he gets hit by a mack truck and dies...then he will suffer in the flame with satan?

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2011, 07:43 PM
If we have done that which is contrary to what Christ has commanded we must confess our sin before we are again right with him.

Firstfruits


1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Of course. But that doesn't mean saved again. It means we are in good fellowship with him again.

Why did the Holy Spirit fall on Samson mightily before he confessed his sin of breaking his vow?

ShawnW
Jan 9th 2011, 07:50 PM
How can He use our sin if our sin has been removed?

Ps 103:12 As far As the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Firstfruits

The blood of Christ has removed sins ability to seperate us from God. He has removed the consequence of death of spirit. Do you sin? If so, then sin has not been completely removed from your life. But, if you are a believer it's no longer you who sins but the sin that lives within you. It's your carnal nature crying out as it's being burnt to death. Most of us if not all of us know the pain and turmoil of sin. Many of us who were once bound by certain vices have found deliverance. We found that deliverance through the pain sin brought into our lives, and a renewed mind from the Holy Spirit. This process is called sanctification. And for most if not all it's not an overnight process.

ShawnW
Jan 9th 2011, 07:52 PM
Of course. But that doesn't mean saved. It means we are in good fellowship with him again.

Why did the Holy Spirit fall on Samson mightily before he confessed his sin of breaking his vow?

You might want to expound. You can be in good relationship with God, yet not saved? If you wouldn't mind explaining that stance it would be greatly appreciated.

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2011, 07:56 PM
You might want to expound. You can be in good relationship with God, yet not saved? If you wouldn't mind explaining that stance it would be greatly appreciated.

Not at all! I mean you can be saved but not in good fellowship not the other way around. Did Israel belong to God when he sent them into babylonian captivity? Sure they did! He spanked them for their disobedience. One can be disciplined by God because of his sin, yet not lost. That's the point I make that FF disagrees with and it is one that I hope all who read the thread understand for it is important to know that God doesn't disown us when we sin but rather, he works to discipline us so that we will overcome. I modified my post above to clarify it by adding the word "again". IOW, when we confess are sins, it's not that he saves us again. That is already the case. But we are cleansed again.

For instance, Peter had his feet washed but Jesus called him "Completely clean". Yet said his feet are dirty. In the same way we are completely clean but need our feet (that part of us that is closest to the world) washed. Thus we confess that stuff and get cleaned.

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 08:15 PM
The blood of Christ has removed sins ability to seperate us from God. He has removed the consequence of death of spirit. Do you sin? If so, then sin has not been completely removed from your life. But, if you are a believer it's no longer you who sins but the sin that lives within you. It's your carnal nature crying out as it's being burnt to death. Most of us if not all of us know the pain and turmoil of sin. Many of us who were once bound by certain vices have found deliverance. We found that deliverance through the pain sin brought into our lives, and a renewed mind from the Holy Spirit. This process is called sanctification. And for most if not all it's not an overnight process.

How can we say that it is the sin that is in us that sins.

Is Jesus in us along with sin, is it not Christ that lives in us?

Mt 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Mk 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Lk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Lk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 08:20 PM
Of course. But that doesn't mean saved again. It means we are in good fellowship with him again.

Why did the Holy Spirit fall on Samson mightily before he confessed his sin of breaking his vow?

At what point can we say that we are saved?

What are we saved from?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2011, 08:23 PM
At what point can we say that we are saved?

What are we saved from?

Firstfruits

1 John wasn't written for lost people. It was written to and for folks that are already saved.

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 08:30 PM
1 John wasn't written for lost people. It was written to and for folks that are already saved.

But when can we say we are saved and what are we saved from?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2011, 08:32 PM
But when can we say we are saved and what are we saved from?

Firstfruits

I will answer your question if you answer my two questions.

When does a man lose his salvation? Did Samson lose it when he ate the honey from the dead carcase and did not repent?

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 08:45 PM
I will answer your question if you answer my two questions.

When does a man lose his salvation? Did Samson lose it when he ate the honey from the dead carcase and did not repent?

Which is why I have asked what are we saved from, nothing happend to Samson, nothing happened to Peter, so what then are we saved from?

I believe what you have asked is answered when we know what we are saved from.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2011, 08:50 PM
Which is why I have asked what are we saved from, nothing happend to Samson, nothing happened to Peter, so what then are we saved from?

I believe what you have asked is answered when we know what we are saved from.

Firstfruits

We are saved from His wrath.

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 08:54 PM
We are saved from His wrath.

That being the case God's wrath will not be until the end, is that agreed?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2011, 08:56 PM
That being the case God's wrath will not be until the end, is that agreed?

Firstfruits

When the Holy Spirit came on Samson mightily, was Samson still saved? (Keeping in mind he broke his vow.)

ShawnW
Jan 9th 2011, 08:58 PM
Not at all! I mean you can be saved but not in good fellowship not the other way around. Did Israel belong to God when he sent them into babylonian captivity? Sure they did! He spanked them for their disobedience. One can be disciplined by God because of his sin, yet not lost. That's the point I make that FF disagrees with and it is one that I hope all who read the thread understand for it is important to know that God doesn't disown us when we sin but rather, he works to discipline us so that we will overcome. I modified my post above to clarify it by adding the word "again". IOW, when we confess are sins, it's not that he saves us again. That is already the case. But we are cleansed again.

For instance, Peter had his feet washed but Jesus called him "Completely clean". Yet said his feet are dirty. In the same way we are completely clean but need our feet (that part of us that is closest to the world) washed. Thus we confess that stuff and get cleaned.

Then I would completely agree with you. See this is where Western theology suffers. It still has a very judicial view of punishment. You sin, therefore God must do X or Y to you in order for you to pay. The fact is Jesus paid the price for ALL mankind. There is no judicial need for punishment. What we see happen as a result of sin is a two fold manifestation of consequnces. First, God set up certain laws...and I believe they were to teach us about sin...and the futility of living in sin. There is the natural consequences of sin...for instance...you can eat yourself into obesity, suffer from diabetes, kidney failure, blindness and then death. But, if you repent, and turn there is a solid chance that you might not have to experience these consequences. If one decides to eat in moderation, lose weight, exercise they will see a benefit for taking care of their temple. There is also a second result of sin...God's corrective hand. I don't believe God punishes for the sake of punishment...but I am probably in the minority since I would likely disagree with most on eternal judgment as well. I believe God corrects, not punishes. He corrects those he loves. His hand brings consequences that steer us back onto the path of righteousness...towards him...not away from him.

ShawnW
Jan 9th 2011, 09:07 PM
How can we say that it is the sin that is in us that sins.

Is Jesus in us along with sin, is it not Christ that lives in us?

Mt 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Mk 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Lk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Lk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Firstfruits

Don't shoot the messanger. I am only parroting Paul.

Romans 7:17
As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me

It's why we have to pick up our cross daily and follow him. Our flesh is being crucified. Where I believe people err in thinking is when they believe it's all or nothing. It's now or never. This is a process. We are indeed saved, the consequences of death of spirit are gone. We are reconciled to God and able to have relationship. That just STARTS the process of crucifying the flesh. God will drag (and yes the greek word is better translated to drag rather than draw) us through the process. I know I started the process kicking and screaming. My flesh cried out, I bucked and moaned. And I seen the utter futility of resisting God. I am now a willing participant, who enjoys relationship but that certainly didn't happen overnight.

The danger of legalistic thinking is that it discourages early Christians who are still on the milk. It also causes us to try to earn our salvation which is futile.

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 09:09 PM
When the Holy Spirit came on Samson mightily, was Samson still saved? (Keeping in mind he broke his vow.)

If the wrath of God is not until the end, then Samson repented before God's wrath has come.

Firstfruits

ShawnW
Jan 9th 2011, 09:18 PM
If the wrath of God is not until the end, then Samson repented before God's wrath has come.

Firstfruits

Then he is in danger of AIONIOS KOLASIS. If Samson had an unrepentant heart, that means he has turned from God. Does mouthing the words of repentance mean we are repentant? It's the heart that matters. God will judge our hearts.

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2011, 09:18 PM
If the wrath of God is not until the end, then Samson repented before God's wrath has come.

Firstfruits

Of course Samson repented eventually. The scriptures record it. But what happens in the interim is not to be ignored. God came mightily upon Samson while Samson still had not confessed his sin. Does the Spirit of God come mightily upon a lost man?

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 09:29 PM
Of course Samson repented eventually. The scriptures record it. But what happens in the interim is not to be ignored. God came mightily upon Samson while Samson still had not confessed his sin. Does the Spirit of God come mightily upon a lost man?

God uses those that are not even saved as in the case of Rahab the harlot.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 9th 2011, 09:35 PM
God uses those that are not even saved as in the case of Rahab the harlot.

Firstfruits

Was Samson lost?

Rahab was saved and is found in the lineage of Christ.

God came mightily upon Samson while he had unconfessed sin. Was Samson still saved or lost when he had the Spirit upon him but he had not confessed his sin?

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 09:40 PM
Was Samson lost?

Rahab was saved and is found in the lineage of Christ.

God came mightily upon Samson while he had unconfessed sin. Was Samson still saved or lost when he had the Spirit upon him but he had not confessed his sin?

If we are saved from the wrath of God which is at the end, then it is clear that Samson was not lost as God's wrath is not until the end of time.

Firstfruits

ShawnW
Jan 9th 2011, 09:49 PM
Does KOLASIS mean wrath? If we are speaking about a judgment coming from wrath rather than correction the Greek word would be timoria. That word is used once in the Bible. Hebrews 10:29.

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2011, 09:55 PM
Does KOLASIS mean wrath? If we are speaking about a judgment coming from wrath rather than correction the Greek word would be timoria. That word is used once in the Bible. Hebrews 10:29.

I do not know, but Samson did not get either from God, as far as I know.

Firstfruits