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Doge
Jan 13th 2011, 05:19 AM
What say ye do we have it.. why...two points I've come across in talking with Serv.
1. Brake the latter of the law for the spirit of the law.
2. Do things out of love not because you have to, out of faith, liberty of the law.

I've been thinking about the letter vs the spirit of the law and i've realized that you can't do that without sin.. that is you can be forced to brake the law and be guiltless but the sin of it has to fall on someone .. i.e the person that caused the situation.

On point number 2 in doing things out of faith/love/liberty of the law.."whatever is not of faith is sin"... what are we to make of this... can we brake the law in faith? .. can we keep the law yet not in faith?
It seems so but does this make the law absolete I don't think so.
This simply points out that without faith, love, good intentions you cannot please God.. but we are also told that faith cannot stand alone you have to act on it.
Therefore the logic leads to .. you are not keeping the law in faith.. I am keeping the law in faith ...can we both be right.. do we have liberty of the law if so how much and why.. Can the law be keep the Sabbath and yet we can have liberty to brake it...if so what other laws do we have liberty over..
Can the law be thou shalt not eat unclean beasts ..yet we can have liberty to do so.... why...because pork is good for you and Jesus paid the price
What do you make of these inconsistencies...I'm not talking about peoples beliefs or maybe partly that ...but the bible seems to indicate we do have such a thing as liberty of the law...if our faith is strong we can do what... brake the law.

Romans 14


Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Servant89
Jan 13th 2011, 04:32 PM
Lk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

1 Cor 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

1 Cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

1 Cor 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

1 Pet 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

something to think about...

Shalom

keck553
Jan 13th 2011, 04:42 PM
There's only one consideration, as far as I am concerned.

Our liberty should be confined by love. Love for God and love for brethren. I think every believer knows what this means.

Doge
Jan 13th 2011, 05:01 PM
Thanks Serv but I'm no closer to understanding it....let's take what Christ said ...love God and your neighbour thus fulfilling the law ...does this mean you can do no wrong against God or your neighbour if everything you do is rooted in love?*
You brake Gods law but he looks at your heart and since there is no evil in it or in the action hence no sin?
You lie to your neighbour but he knows it was to make him laugh hance no sin?

Is the intent of the heart everything?

dim mirrors
Jan 13th 2011, 06:27 PM
I wonder if Adam observed the sabbath before the fall (Gen3:17-19)? Or did he exist in a sabbath?

And I wonder if Adam never had the law "written in his heart" (so to speak) before the fall? He only had one command before the fall. Did this mean he needed more?

My thinking is that the root and goal of the law is this:

For all the Law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another. (Gal 5:14-15)

Biting and devouring one another is lawlessness. Loving one another with agape love and in humility is lawfulness. But how?

I say, then, Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. And these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
(Gal 5:16-18)

For: "Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not lust;" and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Rom 13:9)

"Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Mat 22:37-40)

Adam had one commandment. Jesus gave one commandment:

And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
(1Jn 3:23)

"I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another." (Joh 13:34).

I believe Adam deliberately sinned, because his nature before the fall did not contain the propensity to sin, but he had a motive - a supposed "spiritual enlightenment" in order to becoming like God in rank and stature ("your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil").

Adam chose to sin. And that's when he lost his ability to walk after the Spirit, and so the law was added:

Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand.
(Gal 3:19)

What is lawlessness? Not keeping the sabbath? (New Testament does not imply that or say that). Not keeping the feasts? (New Testament does not imply that or say that).

What does the New Testament teach is lawlessness?

For all the Law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another. (Gal 5:14-15)

The Mosaic covenant is identified by obedience to the letter of the law written by the finger of Moses (not God) in a scroll called "the book of the law" and placed in the side of the ark of the covenant. The law of Moses written by the finger of Moses.

The 10 commandments were written by the finger of God on tablets of stone (on the day of Pentecost), and 3,000 people lost their lives, and the tablets were placed inside the ark of the covenant. The law of God written by the finger of God on tablets of stone. But at the second day of Pentecost, the law of God began to be written by "the finger of God" on human hearts, and 3.000 people were saved.

Yes, the sabbath day is the 4th commandment, but not even the commandments are obeyed through "obedience to the commandments" - the commandments are obeyed through believing in Jesus Christ :

And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
(1Jn 3:23)

The root and goal of the law.

The covenant identified by obedience to commandments and statutes:

"In that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first one old. Now that which decays and becomes old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:13)

Lawlessness = the lack of Agape love, that's all.

That's how I see it. Liberty. Freedom. Free to love God and fellow man by faith in Jesus Christ. Just like Adam before the fall.

Servant89
Jan 14th 2011, 12:04 AM
People that drive ambulances, police cars and fire trucks know they are not under the law. They have freedom to go through red lights and against traffic. We let them because they are in the business saving lives which is more important than keeping the traffic laws. But just because they are not under the (traffic) law, it does not mean they are bad drivers or take their freedom to abuse it. Actually 95% of the people that I have seen driving at exactly the speed limit are policemen.

If I lose my salvation every time I sin, and I gain it back every time I repent, then salvation is up to me. If it is up to me, why did he die?

If my salvation depends on how well I keep the law, then when I enter into heaven I would have something to boast about. No one will boast in heaven.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

People go to hell for breaking God's law, the wages of sin is death. But the reason why people go to heaven is not because they keep God's law, it is because of the grace of God, that had mercy on us just because we believe in his Son.

Jesus saved us on passover day for a reason. He is our passover lamb. During passover, the angel came and looked at the blood on the door. The angel did not care how good or bad people were, he only cared to find out, are they counting on the blood, yes or no. That made the difference.

This whole attitude is reflected in the sign of the sabbath, a sign for Israel of the Old Testament. Do we care to impress God with how well we keep the law? Good luck with that.

1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Shalom

Servant89
Jan 14th 2011, 12:10 AM
God tried to control man with a list of Dos and Don'ts called the law. It failed. Instead of improving the character of people, it ruined it. THat is called the old testament. People did the right thing because they had to or else.

The new testament is about ministering the Holy Spirit to believers. Once inside, it drives people to do the right thing, from the inside, out of love, because we want to. That is a far more effective way of getting us to move in the right direction.

The law is good because it makes people realize, they need a savior, that is how it brings us to Christ.

Gal 3:24 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

But once we are in Christ, the power that makes us bear fruit comes from the Holy Spirit, it does not come by hearing a list of Do's and don'ts.

Shalom

Servant89
Jan 15th 2011, 02:17 AM
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Yeah, I am afraid Paul wasted his time on them. They did not get the point. Our salvation depends on what he did on Calvary, not on how well we keep the law.

Shalom

Doge
Jan 15th 2011, 02:18 PM
I agree with you NO amount of works can please God..but what i struggle to understand is how the highest Commandment LOVE can give you licence to brake the lowest...I mean if you go from the specific to abstract the abstract concept does not contradict the specific but encompasses it....the only way round this is to say the commands given were not absolute or for the purpose given...... of the tree of knowledge thou shalt not eat.. the tree being a sing i would think.

The sacrificial system was a sign to pint to Christ..so far so good.
The Sabbath keeping was a sign for what .. Sunday?
Thou thalt not eat unclean beast is an abomination onto you .. was a sing for what...? if there was nothing wrong with these animals as some suggest other then it was hard work to clean them ..did God go ehhh why bother to tell them how ..just tell them is unclean...can you look at some animals and tell me with a straight face is ok to eat them...I think with this liberty we are reasoning out our God given inhibitions ...liberty is given for a purpose to do good .. IN NO WAY IM ADVOCATING WORKS ONLY IN CHRIST IS OUR SALVATION.

As Dim points out the deeper man fell the more specific the law.. we didn't eat animals then it was ok to eat some of them..now in Christ if we are lifted the letter of the law should be a given even though our focus is on love..... unless I'm missing something as i said the letter of the law meaning something different.

***shrugs****

Servant89
Jan 15th 2011, 02:55 PM
I agree with you NO amount of works can please God..but what i struggle to understand is how the highest Commandment LOVE can give you licence to brake the lowest... ***shrugs****

Perhaps one example will help ....

Germany, 1944, the Gestapo is looking for Jews to kill them. Let say you know of a family of 8 Jewish children and their mother hidding in a cave. The NAZIs tell you that you must tell them the truth about Jews hidding in the area. They ask you, Are you aware of any Jews hidding around here? If you tell them the truth and point to the cave, you will keep your resumé in the law, you will be successful at impressing God with how great you fulfill the law, you will impress yourself with how holy you are, you will be extremely successful at feeling good about your self righteousness, and the enemy will appreciate it. And all that will make you stink before me and before God. When we care more for how good we look in terms of keeping the law, than the welfare of our neighbors, we blew it.

The Gibeonites in Joshua chapter 9 got saved by lying to Joshua.

The Rechabites (Jer 35) did good by disobeying God's prophet, which was sent there by God. After they disobeyed the commandmemt of God (specifically given to them), God stood up and aplauded saying BRAVO ! That is exactly what I wanted you to do. All because they put the spirit of the law above the letter of the law. That is also why Jesus WORKED on the day of rest, to put people first, and his image before men second.

Shalom

P.S. you read KJV like I do, right?

Doge
Jan 15th 2011, 04:22 PM
I'm with you Serv brake the letter for the spirit no argument there .. but how does this justify eating unclean animals unless they are not an abomination as God said... why would the Lord make the unclean animals clean now unless there is a purpose or the purpose of considering them unclean fulfilled...or unless the uncleanness of the animal lies on the command "thou shalt not" given to man to display obedience which Christ has made away with.

I see your reason in braking the letter of law for good...but this does not justify not keeping it.....sure lie when you have to but stop there don't keep lying.



P.S. you read KJV like I do, right?

Yep mainly KJV.

Servant89
Jan 15th 2011, 06:15 PM
I'm with you Serv brake the letter for the spirit no argument there .. but how does this justify eating unclean animals unless they are not an abomination as God said... why would the Lord make the unclean animals clean now unless there is a purpose or the purpose of considering them unclean fulfilled...or unless the uncleanness of the animal lies on the command "thou shalt not" given to man to display obedience which Christ has made away with.

I see your reason in braking the letter of law for good...but this does not justify not keeping it.....sure lie when you have to but stop there don't keep lying.


Yep mainly KJV.

I can see you read a lot of KJV because you are making the same mistake I made for years... the verb "break" is written in KJV as "brake" which is the word for the thing that makes us stop.

The unclean animals made people unclean when they violated the commandment of not to eat them. Jesus said:

Mat 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

We are not defiled when we eat something. People that are under the law, they love to measure others relative to the law because it makes them feel good. Christians that eat a Kosher diet think they are holier than the rest of the Christians and so forth.

Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

The blood of Jesus Christ cleansed all the animals. Everything that was unclean to eat, now is clean. But Christians today have declared unclean, that which was clean to begin with because wine was never on the unclean list and now (as prophesied in the Bible as one of God's elect's errors) Budwiser is unclean (per human standards).

Shalom

Richard H
Jan 15th 2011, 08:16 PM
When Paul talked about “the law” his intended audience had already been taught by him personally, and so they understood his context.
His usage of “law” can be confusing to us, because we assume that it always means the same thing.
I remember being befuddled that the law of liberty (James) was apparently also the law of sin and death (Paul).

In retrospect, these are clearly different laws.
Similarly, there’s a difference between the Ten Commandments, and the regulations of Moses.
(I wish Paul had been more specific. Actually, he was, but we often miss the greater context.)

Defining the terms:
1. The Ten Commandments is referred to as “the Law”. (Capital L in some Bibles)
AKA: ”the whole Law”. (James 2:10,11)

2. Then, there’s the Law of Moses – the regulations of the old covenant by which circumcised (in the flesh) Jews were to approximate righteousness.
(also Capital L in some Bibles)
These were designed to illustrate the difference between the holy and the profane (the everyday stuff).
…To show the difference between good and evil – the distinction of “the knowledge of good and evil”.

“And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;”
(Leviticus 10:10)

“Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things:
they have put no difference between the holy and profane,
neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean,
and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.”
(Ezekiel 22:26)

“And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.”
(Ezekiel 44:23)

3. Then, there are “the teachers of the Law” who added their own regulations in what was originally an oral tradition (The Talmud).
They weren’t so much interested in pleasing YHVH, as they were keen on developing a complex legal system to exert power over the masses.

4. Then, there’s the “law of sin and death” (small L).
AKA: “the wages of sin”.
A principle similar to the law of gravity whereby: sin causes death.

5. Then, there’s the “law of liberty” and also “the royal law” (do unto others) spoken of by James.
_______________

It takes consideration of the context to determine what is meant by “the law”.

The church today often makes no such distinctions.
From some teaching one might “logically” conclude that Jesus nailed the Ten Commandments to the cross.
However, it was the record of our sins which were covered by His blood.

“having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us;
and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
(Colossians 2:14)

It is often taught that the Old Covenant is no more, but while Scripture says it is becoming obsolete, it is only READY to fade away.

“When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.
But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.”
(Hebrews 8:13)

Being “under the Law” refers to the Old Covenant – the regulatory Law of Moses.
Obviously, we as Christians are not “under the Law” of Moses.
Those who embrace Judaism are still under Moses, although there is no eternal righteousness associated with it.

However, there must be Law for how can judgment be determined if there is no Law?
Indeed, Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law.
He said that it would only pass away when the earth and the cosmos passed away.
…Before the new cosmos and the new earth. (Mat 5:17,18)

In a sense, one could say that the Law of Moses is the letter of the Law, because it was written in the Torah, the Hebrew books of the Law, but it has more to do with one’s heart than any written codex. Those who follow the letter are oblivious to the intent. They care only for exact adherence – defining an exact minimum standard. As long as that minimum is met, pretty much anything else goes. (or so it is assumed)

“But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.”
(Isaiah 28:13)

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."
(Jeremiah 31:31-33)

It’s like the difference between walking a dog which must be dragged unwillingly on a leash – constantly lunging at every distraction or the dog which wishes to please his master and stays attentively by his side without need of physical restraint.
(the law of liberty)

Jesus called us to a higher level of the law in Mathew 5, even to purity of mind and heart, even to perfection as our Father in heaven is perfect.
It is an unachievable goal for humans, and so there is also a perfect “amount” of grace to make up for our shortcomings.
‘Not a license to sin, but the grace to put the past behind us and continue to reach upward toward that “high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”

I’m surprised that I have not yet mentioned Romans 8 where the exact phrase “spirit of the Law” is not specifically present but certainly inferred.
…our intention (spirit of the Law) to follow the Holy Spirit and please God.

I’ve spent time looking into all this when I first decided that Revelation 12:17 and 14:12 were significant
…As well as Mat 7:21.

I began keeping the Sabbath (Mat 5:19), and needed to understand what it was to do so in the spirit of the Law – not the letter.
I have nothing against going to church on ANY day, but to me, that does not negate resting and being rejuvenated as God intended.
(No, I’m not SDA or any other 7th day denomination.)

The idea is not to break the Law – not because it’s written down, but because keeping the Law pleases God.

“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”
(1 John 5:2-3)


“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:19)

No, I’m not a “Judizer” (those of the circumcision).
As unpopular as it might be, there IS a difference between the Commandments and the regulations of Moses.
I’m just not impressed by man’s traditions which go against what God has intended.
I don’t care if the early church met on Sunday (to distance themselves from Jews).
That doesn’t mean that it pleases God for us to purposefully forget what we were told to remember.

Now, I don’t expect anyone else to heed this.
Indeed, there are almost 2000 years of tradition and the church is not going to suddenly begin keeping the Sabbath on my say-so.
…but there will come a time… (Is 66:22,23).
All I can do is what I believe.

Anyway, flames welcome, but I hope this was helpful in explaining the letter vs the spirit of the Law.


PS:
‘True no amount of “works” can please God
…without faith.
(There IS a difference btwn good works and works of the Law, but that’s another discussion.)

Servant89
Jan 15th 2011, 08:56 PM
Similarly, there’s a difference between the Ten Commandments, and the regulations of Moses.

Where does it say that? 2Cor 3 specifically states that the stuff that was abolished was the stuff written in stone. What part of that don't you understand? The letter of the law was written in stone.


From some teaching one might “logically” conclude that Jesus nailed the Ten Commandments to the cross.
However, it was the record of our sins which were covered by His blood.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

that is right, it is quite logical...

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.


However, there must be Law for how can judgment be determined if there is no Law?

The people that are going to hell will go to hell for breaking the law, the law still applies to them. The people that will end up in heaven go to heaven because of grace, not because they keep the law written in stone.


In a sense, one could say that the Law of Moses is the letter of the Law, because it was written in the Torah, That is not what 2Cor 3 says !!!!! Stop the nonsense. 2Cor 3 clearlty states the letter of the law is that which was written in stone.


I began keeping the Sabbath ... I have nothing against going to church on ANY day, but to me, that does not negate resting ...

But to God the Father and God the Son, which work on Saturdays it does indeed negate resting (John 5:16-18).


The idea is not to break the Law – not because it’s written down, but because keeping the Law pleases God.

You don't get it, it has nothing to do with doing it because we have to or because it is the right thing to do... it deals with doing it because we actually LOVE to do it.

When we get to the place that we love to praise Jesus on the streets and LOVE to invite people to Church to meet Jesus, when we get to the point that we LOVE to do that so much that we do it because we can not help ourselves... that's the idea.. See this example:

Mk 7:36 And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it;

Notice that they (straight out) disobeyed the commandment of Jesus because they could not help themselves, they were so grateful, they rather disobey that commandment. Praise God for that!!!!

Go do the same. When God commands you to put him last, put him first.

Why was Jesus disappointed at the 9 lepers that obeyed him and at the same time so happy with the Samaritan leper that turned back from doing the commandment? WHY?????


That doesn’t mean that it pleases God for us to purposefully forget what we were told to remember.

God himself forgot to remember it in the NT, do the same ....

Shalom

Doge
Jan 15th 2011, 10:35 PM
When Paul talked about “the law” his intended audience had already been taught by him personally, and so they understood his context.
His usage of “law” can be confusing to us, because we assume that it always means the same thing.
I remember being befuddled that the law of liberty (James) was apparently also the law of sin and death (Paul).

In retrospect, these are clearly different laws.
Similarly, there’s a difference between the Ten Commandments, and the regulations of Moses.
(I wish Paul had been more specific. Actually, he was, but we often miss the greater context.)

Defining the terms:
1. The Ten Commandments is referred to as “the Law”. (Capital L in some Bibles)
AKA: ”the whole Law”. (James 2:10,11)

2. Then, there’s the Law of Moses – the regulations of the old covenant by which circumcised (in the flesh) Jews were to approximate righteousness.
(also Capital L in some Bibles)
These were designed to illustrate the difference between the holy and the profane (the everyday stuff).
…To show the difference between good and evil – the distinction of “the knowledge of good and evil”.

“And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;”
(Leviticus 10:10)

“Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things:
they have put no difference between the holy and profane,
neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean,
and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.”
(Ezekiel 22:26)

“And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.”
(Ezekiel 44:23)

3. Then, there are “the teachers of the Law” who added their own regulations in what was originally an oral tradition (The Talmud).
They weren’t so much interested in pleasing YHVH, as they were keen on developing a complex legal system to exert power over the masses.

4. Then, there’s the “law of sin and death” (small L).
AKA: “the wages of sin”.
A principle similar to the law of gravity whereby: sin causes death.

5. Then, there’s the “law of liberty” and also “the royal law” (do unto others) spoken of by James.
_______________

It takes consideration of the context to determine what is meant by “the law”.

The church today often makes no such distinctions.
From some teaching one might “logically” conclude that Jesus nailed the Ten Commandments to the cross.
However, it was the record of our sins which were covered by His blood.

“having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us;
and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
(Colossians 2:14)

It is often taught that the Old Covenant is no more, but while Scripture says it is becoming obsolete, it is only READY to fade away.

“When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.
But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.”
(Hebrews 8:13)

Being “under the Law” refers to the Old Covenant – the regulatory Law of Moses.
Obviously, we as Christians are not “under the Law” of Moses.
Those who embrace Judaism are still under Moses, although there is no eternal righteousness associated with it.

However, there must be Law for how can judgment be determined if there is no Law?
Indeed, Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law.
He said that it would only pass away when the earth and the cosmos passed away.
…Before the new cosmos and the new earth. (Mat 5:17,18)

In a sense, one could say that the Law of Moses is the letter of the Law, because it was written in the Torah, the Hebrew books of the Law, but it has more to do with one’s heart than any written codex. Those who follow the letter are oblivious to the intent. They care only for exact adherence – defining an exact minimum standard. As long as that minimum is met, pretty much anything else goes. (or so it is assumed)

“But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.”
(Isaiah 28:13)

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."
(Jeremiah 31:31-33)

It’s like the difference between walking a dog which must be dragged unwillingly on a leash – constantly lunging at every distraction or the dog which wishes to please his master and stays attentively by his side without need of physical restraint.
(the law of liberty)

Jesus called us to a higher level of the law in Mathew 5, even to purity of mind and heart, even to perfection as our Father in heaven is perfect.
It is an unachievable goal for humans, and so there is also a perfect “amount” of grace to make up for our shortcomings.
‘Not a license to sin, but the grace to put the past behind us and continue to reach upward toward that “high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”

I’m surprised that I have not yet mentioned Romans 8 where the exact phrase “spirit of the Law” is not specifically present but certainly inferred.
…our intention (spirit of the Law) to follow the Holy Spirit and please God.

I’ve spent time looking into all this when I first decided that Revelation 12:17 and 14:12 were significant
…As well as Mat 7:21.

I began keeping the Sabbath (Mat 5:19), and needed to understand what it was to do so in the spirit of the Law – not the letter.
I have nothing against going to church on ANY day, but to me, that does not negate resting and being rejuvenated as God intended.
(No, I’m not SDA or any other 7th day denomination.)

The idea is not to break the Law – not because it’s written down, but because keeping the Law pleases God.

“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”
(1 John 5:2-3)


“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:19)

No, I’m not a “Judizer” (those of the circumcision).
As unpopular as it might be, there IS a difference between the Commandments and the regulations of Moses.
I’m just not impressed by man’s traditions which go against what God has intended.
I don’t care if the early church met on Sunday (to distance themselves from Jews).
That doesn’t mean that it pleases God for us to purposefully forget what we were told to remember.

Now, I don’t expect anyone else to heed this.
Indeed, there are almost 2000 years of tradition and the church is not going to suddenly begin keeping the Sabbath on my say-so.
…but there will come a time… (Is 66:22,23).
All I can do is what I believe.

Anyway, flames welcome, but I hope this was helpful in explaining the letter vs the spirit of the Law.


PS:
‘True no amount of “works” can please God
…without faith.
(There IS a difference btwn good works and works of the Law, but that’s another discussion.)

I agree with you this makes much more sense to me... the other views seem to take liberty too far IMO.

Richard H
Jan 16th 2011, 12:55 AM
Where does it say that? 2Cor 3 specifically states that the stuff that was abolished was the stuff written in stone. What part of that don't you understand? The letter of the law was written in stone.
Indeed it does.
…But is it speaking of the stone tablets with the God’s Commandments or the stony hearts of man?

“Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us,
written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God;
not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.”
(2 Corinthians 3:3)

"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them.
And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,”
(Ezekiel 11:19)

…so yer sayin’ we’re free to break the Commandments? :confused

Or just the one you object to?



Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Yes! “…contained in ordinances”.
Quite literally, “dogma”.
(Strong’s) a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.
Paul was clearly speaking of the regulations of Moses.
Look at the context:
“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(Ephesians 2:12-14)

Messiah died for ALL (not not just for Jews) and thus the offer of salvation is open to gentiles as well, there is now no difference between Jew and Gentile the two have become one – one new man.


The people that are going to hell will go to hell for breaking the law, the law still applies to them. The people that will end up in heaven go to heaven because of grace, not because they keep the law written in stone.I totally agree!

“all have sinned and fallen short.”
Therefore, we have a default destination – hell.
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
(John 3:18)

We ARE saved by grace through faith in Christ.
...Not by keeping the Law - as if we COULD be good "enough".



But to God the Father and God the Son, which work on Saturdays it does indeed negate resting (John 5:16-18).Doing good works is not the same as doing work-a-day mundane (profane) tasks.

It is always right to do good.


You don't get it, it has nothing to do with doing it because we have to or because it is the right thing to do... it deals with doing it because we actually LOVE to do it. You may have misunderstood me.
Those who got caught up in the letter of the law were the Jews (as a group).
As I said, I am not SDA or of another 7th day denomination.
The only Christians I know who tend to get caught up in the letter of the Law are these types of groups.
This is one reason (in addition to certain other doctrines) that I do not belong.
This is not meant as a smear on all members of 7th day groups, but a general pattern can be recognized.

Sunday Christian groups could rarely be “accused” of following the letter of the law.
Particularly (In the case of rabbinical Jews) in making up rules whereby one could use a screwdriver 3 turns to the left, but never turned to the right - on the Sabbath.
(I forget the exact number of turns, but one is considered “creative work” and one is not.”
THIS is the letter of the law.

Of course “Sunday Christians” do things out of love. I was not evaluating them/you.
Only exploring the various meanings of “law”, and why I became interested in it.
(So as NOT to become guilty of keeping it by the letter.)

I see the Ten Commandments as differing from the ceremonial and civil law of Moses.
And I choose to keep all of them – something most Christians object to.

Ironically, it is the Protestants who are most vehement.
The Catholic Church maintains that the 7th day is the Sabbath, but Sunday is the mark of their authority.
I was born into a Catholic family and went to catechism – receiving First Communion and later being confirmed.
Needless to say, I’m no longer Catholic.


...

Go do the same. When God commands you to put him last, put him first.He didn't want to create too much of a stir among the Pharisees until His time (Passover) was come.



Why was Jesus disappointed at the 9 lepers that obeyed him and at the same time so happy with the Samaritan leper that turned back from doing the commandment? WHY?????The one came back to show gratitude. This pleased Him.

This was not obvious? :hmm:



God himself forgot to remember it in the NT, do the same .... I don’t think the Lord of the Sabbath did forget it.
Neither did He break it by doing good on the Sabbath.
...Only according to the teachings of the Pharisees.

The Sabbath – the Commandments ARE in the NT, if you’re willing to see it.
...Even in the OT concerning the New Earth (the future),
just as the Feast of Tabernacles is mentioned concerning the millennial reign.

Richard H
Jan 16th 2011, 01:21 AM
I agree with you this makes much more sense to me... the other views seem to take liberty too far IMO.

Some do.
And then there are also “legalists” on the other side.

It is good to be aware of the OT for context in understanding the NT.
And to understand the OT in the light of the NT.
For grace DOES supersede the Law for righteousness.

I keep the Sabbath to please God, not to gain righteousness or to gather “points”.

‘Glad you got something out of my post.

Servant89
Jan 16th 2011, 01:21 AM
Indeed it does.
…But is it speaking of the stone tablets with the God’s Commandments or the stony hearts of man?

“Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us,
written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God;
not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.”
(2 Corinthians 3:3)

"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them.
And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,”
(Ezekiel 11:19)

…so yer sayin’ we’re free to break the Commandments? :confused

Or just the one you object to?

Yes! “…contained in ordinances”.
Quite literally, “dogma”.
(Strong’s) a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.
Paul was clearly speaking of the regulations of Moses.
Look at the context:
“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(Ephesians 2:12-14)

Messiah died for ALL (not not just for Jews) and thus the offer of salvation is open to gentiles as well, there is now no difference between Jew and Gentile the two have become one – one new man.

I totally agree!

“all have sinned and fallen short.”
Therefore, we have a default destination – hell.
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
(John 3:18)

We ARE saved by grace through faith in Christ.
...Not by keeping the Law - as if we COULD be good "enough".

Doing good works is not the same as doing work-a-day mundane (profane) tasks.

It is always right to do good.

You may have misunderstood me.
Those who got caught up in the letter of the law were the Jews (as a group).
As I said, I am not SDA or of another 7th day denomination.
The only Christians I know who tend to get caught up in the letter of the Law are these types of groups.
This is one reason (in addition to certain other doctrines) that I do not belong.
This is not meant as a smear on all members of 7th day groups, but a general pattern can be recognized.

Sunday Christian groups could rarely be “accused” of following the letter of the law.
Particularly (In the case of rabbinical Jews) in making up rules whereby one could use a screwdriver 3 turns to the left, but never turned to the right - on the Sabbath.
(I forget the exact number of turns, but one is considered “creative work” and one is not.”
THIS is the letter of the law.

Of course “Sunday Christians” do things out of love. I was not evaluating them/you.
Only exploring the various meanings of “law”, and why I became interested in it.
(So as NOT to become guilty of keeping it by the letter.)

I see the Ten Commandments as differing from the ceremonial and civil law of Moses.
And I choose to keep all of them – something most Christians object to.

Ironically, it is the Protestants who are most vehement.
The Catholic Church maintains that the 7th day is the Sabbath, but Sunday is the mark of their authority.
I was born into a Catholic family and went to catechism – receiving First Communion and later being confirmed.
Needless to say, I’m no longer Catholic.

He didn't want to create too much of a stir among the Pharisees until His time (Passover) was come.

The one came back to show gratitude. This pleased Him.

This was not obvious? :hmm:

I don’t think the Lord of the Sabbath did forget it.
Neither did He break it by doing good on the Sabbath.
...Only according to the teachings of the Pharisees.

The Sabbath – the Commandments ARE in the NT, if you’re willing to see it.
...Even in the OT concerning the New Earth (the future),
just as the Feast of Tabernacles is mentioned concerning the millennial reign.

It is clear to me, your mind is set. You can see how I see the Sabbath in this thread...

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/219377-My-30-Reasons-for-Sunday-Worship

Those that want to keep the Sabbath, go right ahead... I am not going to try to stop you.

Shalom

Richard H
Jan 16th 2011, 01:50 AM
It is clear to me, your mind is set. You can see how I see the Sabbath in this thread...

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/219377-My-30-Reasons-for-Sunday-Worship

Those that want to keep the Sabbath, go right ahead... I am not going to try to stop you.

Shalom

We can agree to disagree. :)
As I said, I don’t expect anyone to agree with my conviction.
I’m more than aware of how unpopular and missunderstood a stance it is.

I mentioned the Sabbath to explain the reason I began exploring what is meant by “the law”.
I discovered that the word can have a variety of meanings which can be discerned by the context.
Understanding these distinctions can be very useful in coming to some conclusions concerning the OP’s topic, the letter of the law.
...And understanding other aspects of Scripture.

Servant89
Jan 16th 2011, 02:54 AM
We can agree to disagree. :)
As I said, I don’t expect anyone to agree with my conviction.
I’m more than aware of how unpopular and missunderstood a stance it is.

I mentioned the Sabbath to explain the reason I began exploring what is meant by “the law”.
I discovered that the word can have a variety of meanings which can be discerned by the context.
Understanding these distinctions can be very useful in coming to some conclusions concerning the OP’s topic, the letter of the law.
...And understanding other aspects of Scripture.

The letter of the law says remember the Sabbath.... God forgot to quote it in the NT. See reason # 1 in the thread I provided on the post before.

The letter of the law says rest, do not work, Jesus said: both his Father and him work on Saturdays.

The letter of the law says work on your own self righteousness by keeping these commandments. The spirit of the law says our own righteousness stinks. Jesus is now our righteousness.

The letter of the law says the 9 lepers fulfill it. Jesus was not happy with them because they decided to put the commandment first instead of putting Jesus first. Lets do that on our agenda for the week.

The letter of the law says, thou shalt not lie... Jacob lied to his father and got the blessing, Rahab the prostitute lied to her people and got saved, the Gibeonites lied to Joshua and got saved (Joshua 9) by doing that, the letter of the law says thou shalt not break the roof of your neigbor's house and some people in order to get a sick man to Jesus did that and Jesus saw their faith, it does not say the letter of the law.

The letter of the law says do not have sex ouside marriage, and yet Tamar and Ruth got blessed for being willing to go out that boundary for a higher calling.

The letter of the law says, donot leave a city or enter a city on saturdays, and Paul went outside a city on Saturdays.

The letter of the law says pray AFTER you eat (Deu 8:10), yet we do good when we put God first, before out appetite and pray BEFORE we eat. Keep doing it.

The letter of the law kills and that includes the 10 commandments.

If to you is a sin not to keep the Sabbath, you better keep it! (Rom 14).

The Sabbath was made for me, I was not made for the Sabbath. There is freedom, lots of it.

Shalom

The letter of the law includes the 10 commandments.

Richard H
Jan 16th 2011, 01:44 PM
...

The letter of the law says, thou shalt not lie... Jacob lied to his father and got the blessing, Rahab the prostitute lied to her people and got saved, the Gibeonites lied to Joshua and got saved (Joshua 9) by doing that, the letter of the law says thou shalt not break the roof of your neigbor's house and some people in order to get a sick man to Jesus did that and Jesus saw their faith, it does not say the letter of the law.

The letter of the law says do not have sex ouside marriage, and yet Tamar and Ruth got blessed for being willing to go out that boundary for a higher calling.

... (Forget the Sabbath as a topic for a moment.)

Ya know…
I was going to let it go… BUT….

Not everyone in the Bible was perfect,
but God still was able to use them.
However, I can’t just sit by and say nothing when a Christian seems to advocate accomplishing good by lying or having sex outside of marriage.


…Even if it’s only “moral relativism” in today’s culture.

What is this?
…The gospel according to Saul Alinsky? :confused





... And what's up with, "thou shalt not break the roof of thy neighbor's house."???
(the book of Makinitup) :lol:

Servant89
Jan 16th 2011, 07:15 PM
I heard you. I read it.

God bless you anyway.

Shalom

Servant89
Jan 16th 2011, 09:47 PM
I can’t just sit by and say nothing when a Christian seems to advocate accomplishing good by lying or having sex outside of marriage.

It has nothing to do with accomplishing good, it has everything to do with demonstrating we are not under the law and at the same time showing what we believe with our actions.

Take Rahab the prostitute for example. She became a traitor and lied to her people ... not to accomplish good (for everyone in Jericho got killed), but to drive a point home.

The point God wanted to drive home was this. How many people got saved from Jericho? One one family. What was so special about that family? One person was special. God saved the entire family because of one person. What was so special about that person? Was that a person famous for being a righteous person in accordance to the law? No. She was a hooker. Why did God chose a hooker as an example of what he is looking for in people? Because he wants all of us to get the point of Galatians 2:16, Gal 2:21; Gal 5:4; and Rom 9:32... that what impresses him the most is not a good list of keeping commandments. It is faith. Rahab had faith even though her resume in the law was really bad. Actually, she had no problem lying to her people. It is the lying to her people what demonstrated her faith. Her actions that demonstrated her faith is what saved her. Those are biblical facts. I was not the one that decided to save Rahab's family and only her family. God did that.

The self righteous are known for these facts:
They love to boast about how well they keep God's law. That is why Jesus had such a hard time getting along with them.
They go around accusing others. That is why Jesus had such a hard time getting along with them.
They go around building their resume in the law (Rom 9:32). That is why Jesus had such a hard time getting along with them.

The good thing about prostitutes is that they never ever point at people and say... "look, a sinner!", prostitutes never ever look themselves in a mirror and say: "I wonder if people can see how holy I am", they do not say: "I keep God's law so perfectly!" And that is why God chose a prostitute, to humble the rest of us into realizing we can not impress him with our righteousness, only faith will do that.

Jesus did not have problems with the sinners, it is the religious right that boasted in the law that got on his nerves.

Is 65:5 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Peace

LookingUp
Jan 17th 2011, 12:35 AM
(Forget the Sabbath as a topic for a moment.)

Ya know…
I was going to let it go… BUT….

Not everyone in the Bible was perfect,
but God still was able to use them.
However, I can’t just sit by and say nothing when a Christian seems to advocate accomplishing good by lying or having sex outside of marriage.


…Even if it’s only “moral relativism” in today’s culture.

What is this?
…The gospel according to Saul Alinsky? :confused





... And what's up with, "thou shalt not break the roof of thy neighbor's house."???
(the book of Makinitup) :lol:Hi Richard. I was wondering…I know there are Christians who feel convicted to worship/fellowship/study (no working, etc.) on Saturday, because they think that Saturday is the Sabbath that God asked us to set aside from the beginning. But the Israelites observed a Hebrew lunar calendar to calculate the Sabbaths. When the Sabbath law was given, our calendar didn’t exist. When comparing our calendar to theirs, the weekly cycle is not identical. I’m not sure if one could calculate the 7th day Sabbath on the Hebrew lunar calendar and feel confident about the accuracy (because I think even that has to be done by sighting the new moon in Israel with two witneses). It seems to me that if we use our current Gregorian calendar, it doesn’t matter which day we choose, because it’s just a guessing game with our calendar anyway.

Richard H
Jan 17th 2011, 12:55 AM
It has nothing to do with accomplishing good, it has everything to do with demonstrating we are not under the law and at the same time showing what we believe with our actions.
...
Apparently, you don’t actually read what I’ve been writing,
But I’ll refrain from [quoting] myself.

I don’t keep the Sabbath because I have to. I keep it because I want to.

That is the “spirit” (intention) of the Law.

No. I’m not talking about the Old Covenant with food laws and all sorts of regulations.
I’m talking about everything which Jesus taught and everything which Paul taught.
Which ARE based on the precepts of the Ten Commandments.

The OT is context for the NT, and the Commandments are foundational.

Indeed, the Sabbath was created for man and not man for the Sabbath.
Since it was created for you, why do you reject it?

… I know full well why. You’ve been taught to.
The whole church has been taught so, and it began in the year 321 AD.

It is difficult, however, to set aside all the religious teachings and just read what the Scripture says.

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same,
shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 5:19)

"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER'
and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;
and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court;
and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
(Matthew 5:21-22)

Jesus called us to a higher understanding,
Past the letter.
…to begin approaching the heart of YHVH.
And with an understanding of the Law (the 10),
a greater appreciation of the grace by which we are allowed salvation.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
(Matthew 7:21)

The problem with all this, today, is that the churches which DO keep the Sabbath, tend to be very oriented to the letter.
They have virtually neglected grace altogether, and cannot distinguish between the 10 Commandments and the Law of Moses.
Moreover, there is often a judgmental atmosphere.

I do not belong to such a group.
Indeed, I would rather gather with Sunday Christians on any day of the week, and yet (I) also keep the Sabbath Holy since God had set it aside in the very beginning.

BTW: I don’t “do” anything particularly “religious” on the Sabbath. Mostly, I just read and rest.
It’s truly a day off when I can nap and not feel guilty. LOL

Ya know…
There seems to be a relationship between the Sabbath and God’s provision in the desert.
A time is coming very soon when we shall have to reply more and more on God’s provision when the world's systems of supply break down.

Servant89
Jan 17th 2011, 01:11 AM
Apparently, you don’t actually read what I’ve been writing,
But I’ll refrain from [quoting] myself.

I don’t keep the Sabbath because I have to. I keep it because I want to.

That is the “spirit” (intention) of the Law.

No. I’m not talking about the Old Covenant with food laws and all sorts of regulations.
I’m talking about everything which Jesus taught and everything which Paul taught.
Which ARE based on the precepts of the Ten Commandments.

The OT is context for the NT, and the Commandments are foundational.

Indeed, the Sabbath was created for man and not man for the Sabbath.
Since it was created for you, why do you reject it?

… I know full well why. You’ve been taught to.
The whole church has been taught so, and it began in the year 321 AD.

It is difficult, however, to set aside all the religious teachings and just read what the Scripture says.

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same,
shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 5:19)

"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER'
and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;
and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court;
and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
(Matthew 5:21-22)

Jesus called us to a higher understanding,
Past the letter.
…to begin approaching the heart of YHVH.
And with an understanding of the Law (the 10),
a greater appreciation of the grace by which we are allowed salvation.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
(Matthew 7:21)

The problem with all this, today, is that the churches which DO keep the Sabbath, tend to be very oriented to the letter.
They have virtually neglected grace altogether, and cannot distinguish between the 10 Commandments and the Law of Moses.
Moreover, there is often a judgmental atmosphere.

I do not belong to such a group.
Indeed, I would rather gather with Sunday Christians on any day of the week, and yet (I) also keep the Sabbath Holy since God had set it aside in the very beginning.

BTW: I don’t “do” anything particularly “religious” on the Sabbath. Mostly, I just read and rest.
It’s truly a day off when I can nap and not feel guilty. LOL

Ya know…
There seems to be a relationship between the Sabbath and God’s provision in the desert.
A time is coming very soon when we shall have to reply more and more on God’s provision when the world's systems of supply break down.

According to the Scriptures you just quoted, I am a fool, guilty of the supreme court, deserving of hell and I will not enter the kingdom of heaven. And you say you are not oriented to the letter of the law? That you are here to minister grace? That you are not judgmental? Make up your mind. Which is it?

You claim you are not and SDA but the fact that you keep referring to 321 AD tells me they trained you. Everything about you shouts SDA. You claim with your own words you are on the right track, that you are not an SDA, but it keeps coming to the surface.

Shalom

Doge
Jan 17th 2011, 01:39 AM
Hi Richard. I was wondering…I know there are Christians who feel convicted to worship/fellowship/study (no working, etc.) on Saturday, because they think that Saturday is the Sabbath that God asked us to set aside from the beginning. But the Israelites observed a Hebrew lunar calendar to calculate the Sabbaths. When the Sabbath law was given, our calendar didn’t exist. When comparing our calendar to theirs, the weekly cycle is not identical. I’m not sure if one could calculate the 7th day Sabbath on the Hebrew lunar calendar and feel confident about the accuracy (because I think even that has to be done by sighting the new moon in Israel with two witneses). It seems to me that if we use our current Gregorian calendar, it doesn’t matter which day we choose, because it’s just a guessing game with our calendar anyway.The days go 1234567 ..1234567 what does the calender have to do with anything and is not because I think is what God said .. you'll have to have a pretty good reason to say it is no longer in effect and all i hear is grace grace ... freedom ...

LookingUp
Jan 17th 2011, 01:53 AM
The days go 1234567 ..1234567 what does the calender have to do with anything and is not because I think is what God said .. you'll have to have a pretty good reason to say it is no longer in effect and all i hear is grace grace ... freedom ...If you read your sentence out loud, you'll see it's not very clear, so I'm not sure what you're saying. But I didn't say observing the Sabbath was not "in effect." All I said is that we can't be sure that Saturday is the actual Sabbath day God had in mind. I'm sure the Sabbath falls on Saturday sometimes, but it won't all the time.

Servant89
Jan 17th 2011, 01:57 AM
This is what the law of the sabbath commands us to do.

7 Things that the law forbids us to do on Sabbath days:

We can not prepare food (cook or bake, Exo 16:23).
We can not light a fire (Exo 35:3), so forget BBQs, if you want to keep the Sabbath.
We can not buy or sell (Neh 10:31; Neh 13:15-19)
We can not carry anything heavy (Neh 13:15-19, Jer 17:22-23)
We can not travel (leave or enter a city, Exo 16:29; Neh 13:15-19; Act 1:12)
We can not do any kind of work (Exo 20:10; Mat 12:5; John 5:17-18)
We can not pay anyone to do those things for us (Lev 25:6)
Besides that, we also have to work 6 days a week, not 5 (Exo 20:9).

If we do not do that, we are Sabbath breakers. I am a Sabbath breaker. I want to go on record, I am. I do not practice those 7 things. Sometimes I do, but when I do them, it is not planned as such.

Shalom

Doge
Jan 17th 2011, 02:01 AM
If you read your sentence out loud, you'll see it's not very clear, so I'm not sure what you're saying. But I didn't say observing the Sabbath was not "in effect." All I said is that we can't be sure that Saturday is the actual Sabbath day God had in mind. I'm sure the Sabbath falls on Saturday sometimes, but it won't all the time.

The weekly cycle goes from day 1 to 7 yes? that has not changed even if the calender has .... and how can the Sabbath fall on one Saturday and not the others...

Richard H
Jan 17th 2011, 03:15 AM
Hi Richard. I was wondering…I know there are Christians who feel convicted to worship/fellowship/study (no working, etc.) on Saturday, because they think that Saturday is the Sabbath that God asked us to set aside from the beginning. But the Israelites observed a Hebrew lunar calendar to calculate the Sabbaths. When the Sabbath law was given, our calendar didn’t exist. When comparing our calendar to theirs, the weekly cycle is not identical. I’m not sure if one could calculate the 7th day Sabbath on the Hebrew lunar calendar and feel confident about the accuracy (because I think even that has to be done by sighting the new moon in Israel with two witneses). It seems to me that if we use our current Gregorian calendar, it doesn’t matter which day we choose, because it’s just a guessing game with our calendar anyway.
Good points to raise, LookingUp.
('had to attend to dinner)

There HAVE been various changes in the calendar in terms of how many days are in a month.
Indeed, there’ve even been several calendars, but there have always been 7 days in a week and the order of the days has not changed.

The Hebrews DID follow a lunar calendar based on the first sighting of the new moon crescent.
This affects the timings of the feasts and other holy days, but it is an independent system from the days of the week.

Additionally, the Hebrews reckoned the day as beginning at sunset, since that is how it is described in Genesis and in other places.
I keep the Sabbath from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, because simply because that’s the timeframe laid out in Scripture.

Some maintain that the timing of months should be according to the crescent in Jerusalem, but before the internet, how could one tell?
No. Its local time, and the months were numbered (not named) in a system for an agrarian society to easily determine the timing of the feasts without a printed graphic calendar.

Now, the Jews (a subset of the Hebrews) actually have several concurrent calendars these days: religious, civil, and something else (?).
They even have “new years” starting at different times of the year depending on which calendar.
None of them really go by the actual sighting of the new moon.
While I don’t really keep the feasts, I DO try to be aware of them and reckon the timing according to weather.com or some such site.

Synching up our calendar with God’s calendar CAN be a bit confusing when it comes to the feasts, but the Sabbath is a snap.

Richard H
Jan 17th 2011, 03:30 AM
According to the Scriptures you just quoted, I am a fool, guilty of the supreme court, deserving of hell and I will not enter the kingdom of heaven. And you say you are not oriented to the letter of the law? That you are here to minister grace? That you are not judgmental? Make up your mind. Which is it?

You claim you are not and SDA but the fact that you keep referring to 321 AD tells me they trained you. Everything about you shouts SDA. You claim with your own words you are on the right track, that you are not an SDA, but it keeps coming to the surface.

Shalom
My apologies, Servant.
I was not trying to imply that you were a fool.
I should have used another verse (below).
The one I used happened to be close to the part where Jesus was speaking of the commandments.

‘Should have used:
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
(Matthew 5:27-28)

The point is that He was quoting them the commandment

and then raising the bar to a level of perfection.
He did not quote the commandment and say to forget about it.

As for 321 AD, the SDAs didn’t pick the date out of thin air. It’s called history.

…Just as Victor (bishop of Rome) brought Easter into the church in 198 AD, over the objections of Irenaeus, who ended up martyred several years later due to the controversy. – Foxes Book of Martyrs

SDA is the most well known 7th day group, so that is the natural assumption people make about me, but some COGs and some Baptists are also 7th day.
…As are those who are of the Hebrew roots movement.
I tend to be in the latter, but only as context for the NT.

As for judging you…
I don’t know you and determining the state of your heart is not my job.

I have no idea if the Sabbath is “required” for heaven.
It seems to me that grace trumps everything, when one is doing the will of the Father.
How you work that out is between you and God.

But the Sabbath makes for a perfect case study in considering the letter of the law.
One can keep it according to the letter.
One can keep it according to the intention of the Spirit.
Or one might (?) keep a different day. I DUNNO

I don’t think Scripture teaches that it should be discounted.
In fact, Jesus stated just the opposite.

The Sabbath was actually given before the Tablets (Gen 16:23) in conjunction with the manna.
The commandment says to keep it holy and to do no regular work, but to rest.
Anything beyond that is the Law of Moses, although he had some good suggestions. ;)

I think Paul would say not to let anyone judge you how you keep it, just as he did concerning the feasts/holy days.

Richard H
Jan 17th 2011, 03:50 AM
Besides that, we also have to work 6 days a week, not 5 (Exo 20:9).

See? This is "the letter" rearing up again.
They were being worked 7 days a week in Egypt, so it was a day off from work.
In our more metropoliton society, 5 days is the standard (although some people DO work 6 and 7 days).

What is the intent? Rest!
In fact, "sabbath" means something like: intermission.

RollTide21
Jan 17th 2011, 04:01 PM
Thanks Serv but I'm no closer to understanding it....let's take what Christ said ...love God and your neighbour thus fulfilling the law ...does this mean you can do no wrong against God or your neighbour if everything you do is rooted in love?*
You brake Gods law but he looks at your heart and since there is no evil in it or in the action hence no sin?
You lie to your neighbour but he knows it was to make him laugh hance no sin?

Is the intent of the heart everything?Not sure what has been said in this thread, but the simple answer is this (Yes...Jesus most definitely intended for this to be quite simple):

Follow Christ. Seek Him and abide in His Holy Spirit. Communicate with Him, daily. Pray, read/study the Scriptures, become involved with a fellowship of other Christians, etc., etc. This is what God wants; for us to immerse ourselves in the Holy Spirit. In doing so, we are led into righteousness, and do not have to be conscious of what we DO and DO NOT DO because the Spirit leads us rightly.

RollTide21
Jan 17th 2011, 04:04 PM
I say, then, Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. And these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
(Gal 5:16-18)


"Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Mat 22:37-40)

***************

Servant89
Jan 17th 2011, 04:24 PM
My apologies, Servant.
I was not trying to imply that you were a fool.
I should have used another verse (below).
The one I used happened to be close to the part where Jesus was speaking of the commandments.

‘Should have used:
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
(Matthew 5:27-28)

The point is that He was quoting them the commandment

and then raising the bar to a level of perfection.
He did not quote the commandment and say to forget about it.

As for 321 AD, the SDAs didn’t pick the date out of thin air. It’s called history.

…Just as Victor (bishop of Rome) brought Easter into the church in 198 AD, over the objections of Irenaeus, who ended up martyred several years later due to the controversy. – Foxes Book of Martyrs

SDA is the most well known 7th day group, so that is the natural assumption people make about me, but some COGs and some Baptists are also 7th day.
…As are those who are of the Hebrew roots movement.
I tend to be in the latter, but only as context for the NT.

As for judging you…
I don’t know you and determining the state of your heart is not my job.

I have no idea if the Sabbath is “required” for heaven.
It seems to me that grace trumps everything, when one is doing the will of the Father.
How you work that out is between you and God.

But the Sabbath makes for a perfect case study in considering the letter of the law.
One can keep it according to the letter.
One can keep it according to the intention of the Spirit.
Or one might (?) keep a different day. I DUNNO

I don’t think Scripture teaches that it should be discounted.
In fact, Jesus stated just the opposite.

The Sabbath was actually given before the Tablets (Gen 16:23) in conjunction with the manna.
The commandment says to keep it holy and to do no regular work, but to rest.
Anything beyond that is the Law of Moses, although he had some good suggestions. ;)

I think Paul would say not to let anyone judge you how you keep it, just as he did concerning the feasts/holy days.

Amen! Well said Richard. Well said.

Shalom

Servant89
Jan 17th 2011, 04:25 PM
See? This is "the letter" rearing up again.
They were being worked 7 days a week in Egypt, so it was a day off from work.
In our more metropoliton society, 5 days is the standard (although some people DO work 6 and 7 days).

What is the intent? Rest!
In fact, "sabbath" means something like: intermission.

You are correct! I am guilty on that one, that was the letter of the law speaking indeed. The intent is what is important. This feels strange, agreeing on something... wonderfully strange.

Shalom

Servant89
Jan 17th 2011, 04:27 PM
Not sure what has been said in this thread, but the simple answer is this (Yes...Jesus most definitely intended for this to be quite simple):

Follow Christ. Seek Him and abide in His Holy Spirit. Communicate with Him, daily. Pray, read/study the Scriptures, become involved with a fellowship of other Christians, etc., etc. This is what God wants; for us to immerse ourselves in the Holy Spirit. In doing so, we are led into righteousness, and do not have to be conscious of what we DO and DO NOT DO because the Spirit leads us rightly.

Yes indeed, Amen.

Shalom

Servant89
Jan 17th 2011, 04:30 PM
As for 321 AD, the SDAs didn’t pick the date out of thin air. It’s called history.



It is history indeed, you are correct. But we do not worship God on Sunday because of what man said or man commanded us. We do it because we want to.

Shalom

keck553
Jan 17th 2011, 04:58 PM
It is history indeed, you are correct. But we do not worship God on Sunday because of what man said or man commanded us. We do it because we want to.

Shalom

Honestly? If 98% of your brethren congregated on Tuesday, would you still be hanging around an empty building on Sunday? If you say you really want to have 'church' on Sunday because that day is special to you, then I honor your conviction, and I alone would meet with you at that empty building if only so you wouldn't be alone. The boundaries of my liberty is love for God and love for God's chosen. Simularly if God has a heart for Sabbath on the sixth day, then I also have a heart for Sabbath. While I do not personally follow any 'rules' of rest, I do feel in my spirit a specialness for the sixth day - because God does and has awakened me to it. I do consider this a 'hidden' thing between me and God, and by no means do I think I am 'special' or 'more favored' for having been given this heart. I also believe the resurrection was planned before the foundation of the universe was planned for the seventh day. Why God arranged it so I do not know fully. Why should I? I am finite. But God's Word and more importantly His intent for His children is not shrouded in secret decoder ring nuances regarding His special days. They are clearly stated. Perhaps the day of resurrection is a 'shadow' of things to come :) and in that context, I think it's a worthy study, however I would reject any religious legalism imposed on anyone regarding any day.

So, I did ask myself honestly why I go to chuch on Sunday. I'm not particularly comfortable with it because it seems religious, but to be honest. so does Saturday worship.....anyway this is my honest answer:

Because every other like-minded person I know does.

Servant89
Jan 17th 2011, 05:48 PM
Honestly? If 98% of your brethren congregated on Tuesday, would you still be hanging around an empty building on Sunday? If you say you really want to have 'church' on Sunday because that day is special to you, then I honor your conviction, and I alone would meet with you at that empty building if only so you wouldn't be alone. The boundaries of my liberty is love for God and love for God's chosen. Simularly if God has a heart for Sabbath on the sixth day, then I also have a heart for Sabbath. While I do not personally follow any 'rules' of rest, I do feel in my spirit a specialness for the sixth day - because God does and has awakened me to it. I do consider this a 'hidden' thing between me and God, and by no means do I think I am 'special' or 'more favored' for having been given this heart. I also believe the resurrection was planned before the foundation of the universe was planned for the seventh day. Why God arranged it so I do not know fully. Why should I? I am finite. But God's Word and more importantly His intent for His children is not shrouded in secret decoder ring nuances regarding His special days. They are clearly stated. Perhaps the day of resurrection is a 'shadow' of things to come :) and in that context, I think it's a worthy study, however I would reject any religious legalism imposed on anyone regarding any day.

So, I did ask myself honestly why I go to chuch on Sunday. I'm not particularly comfortable with it because it seems religious, but to be honest. so does Saturday worship.....anyway this is my honest answer:

Because every other like-minded person I know does.

DOUBLE AMEN! I AM SHOUTING FOR YOUR BROTHER ! AMEN!

SHALOM

Doge
Jan 17th 2011, 07:40 PM
Not sure what has been said in this thread, but the simple answer is this (Yes...Jesus most definitely intended for this to be quite simple):

Follow Christ. Seek Him and abide in His Holy Spirit. Communicate with Him, daily. Pray, read/study the Scriptures, become involved with a fellowship of other Christians, etc., etc. This is what God wants; for us to immerse ourselves in the Holy Spirit. In doing so, we are led into righteousness, and do not have to be conscious of what we DO and DO NOT DO because the Spirit leads us rightly.Well Roll... does that mean you don't walk contrary to the 10 commandments because you are spirit led to a higher standard or they don't apply to you.

And why are we led in so many directions, one group says keep the Sabbath one says don't, one says we are free to eat unclean animals one says don't, one says hell is eternal one says it is not.

RollTide21
Jan 17th 2011, 08:27 PM
Well Roll... does that mean you don't walk contrary to the 10 commandments because you are spirit led to a higher standard or they don't apply to you.

And why are we led in so many directions, one group says keep the Sabbath one says don't, one says we are free to eat unclean animals one says don't, one says hell is eternal one says it is not.Hmm. A good question. I think this sort of ties in with a thread I made recently about the Spirit being the Word.

I would say this: The 10 commandments were given so that a man could have a clear blueprint on God's idea of His ideal Child. Make God #1 in your life, honor your parents, don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, don't covet, etc. The man who can faithfully follow each of these commandments represents the portrait of a "righteous" man. As it is said in Romans 7, however, the Law, while the standard of God, served only to condemn man because it simply highlighted sin and, with man's sinful nature, we had no hope of ever obtaining the status of "righteous".

9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

The Spirit of God given through Christ DECLARES us "righteous". I don't think that the Spirit leads us SPECIFICALLY to follow the 10 Commandments. I think that the Spirit leads us to love God with all that is in us and to love our fellow man (Matt 22:37-38). As a result, as we abide in the Spirit, our actions are in keeping with the righteousness that the 10 Commandments were intended to produce. I am convicted of the Spirit that killing, stealing, adultery, and idolatry is wrong. I am NOT convicted that I shouldn't work on the Sabbath. Why is this? Well, loving God with all that is within me encompasses what that commandment was intended to convey, does it not? Furthermore, love of my fellow man would lead me to reference Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23:

19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings

If I were to visit an orthodox Jewish family on a Sunday, I would, out of respect for them and for God's Word in Romans, observe the Sabbath just as they would. Just the same, if I were ministering to a Muslim family, my wife would cover her head if we visited that household. It goes back to love of God and my fellow man.

RollTide21
Jan 17th 2011, 08:34 PM
And why are we led in so many directions, one group says keep the Sabbath one says don't, one says we are free to eat unclean animals one says don't, one says hell is eternal one says it is not.To this question specifically, I honestly didn't know that, aside from Jewish converts, that Christians actually "kept" the Sabbath...as in not working, playing, etc...only resting. I ESPECIALLY would never have thought that non-Jewish Christians felt led not to eat "unclean" animals. I would say that feeling as if it is required to observe these things, specifically, is not Spirit-led.

As for the last part about Hell and eternity, that is simply a case of Man arguing our own intellectual interpretations of the specifics of God's plan for eternity. I don't personally think that God INTENDS for us to know the exacts of the Afterlife. The Spirit leads us into communion with God, not into figuring out the mysteries of Heaven and Hell. So, that stuff is just insignificant, academic banter

Doge
Jan 18th 2011, 01:42 AM
I would say this: The 10 commandments were given so that a man could have a clear blueprint on God's idea of His ideal Child. Make God #1 in your life, honor your parents, don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, don't covet, etc. The man who can faithfully follow each of these commandments represents the portrait of a "righteous" man. As it is said in Romans 7, however, the Law, while the standard of God, served only to condemn man because it simply highlighted sin and, with man's sinful nature, we had no hope of ever obtaining the status of "righteous".

Yes the law did show the sin in man it didn't make man a sinner for the low is holy and good.



The Spirit of God given through Christ DECLARES us "righteous". I don't think that the Spirit leads us SPECIFICALLY to follow the 10 Commandments. I think that the Spirit leads us to love God with all that is in us and to love our fellow man (Matt 22:37-38). As a result, as we abide in the Spirit, our actions are in keeping with the righteousness that the 10 Commandments were intended to produce. I am convicted of the Spirit that killing, stealing, adultery, and idolatry is wrong. I am NOT convicted that I shouldn't work on the Sabbath. Why is this? Well, loving God with all that is within me encompasses what that commandment was intended to convey, does it not? Furthermore, love of my fellow man would lead me to reference Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23:

Yep if you read Romans 7 after talking about the infirmities of man it gives you the solution "through Jesus Christ our Lord" and the law does not keep you from doing what Paul said loving your fellow man
Well if the Sabbath is to remember creation as a day of rest and is gone be kept in the new heaven and earth I don't think that's all there is to it.
I don't know why you're not convicted of Sabbath .. is there something you shouldn't/should be doing and don't... as for me i do feel Sunday is special but i know that's from tradition being allowed to watch tv on Sunday when young and a rest day all my life.. i naturally feel good about it.



If I were to visit an orthodox Jewish family on a Sunday, I would, out of respect for them and for God's Word in Romans, observe the Sabbath just as they would. Just the same, if I were ministering to a Muslim family, my wife would cover her head if we visited that household. It goes back to love of God and my fellow man.
I don't see how this makes up for keeping the law or is of any relevance of course we should be loving caring and considered.

Doge
Jan 18th 2011, 01:44 AM
To this question specifically, I honestly didn't know that, aside from Jewish converts, that Christians actually "kept" the Sabbath...as in not working, playing, etc...only resting. I ESPECIALLY would never have thought that non-Jewish Christians felt led not to eat "unclean" animals. I would say that feeling as if it is required to observe these things, specifically, is not Spirit-led.
I think we are but our tradition is getting in the way .. why else aren't our restaurants full of donkey, horse steaks .. dog and cat delicacies .. why do we eat eel and not sneak ..etc..etc...it makes no financial sense.

I think the only think that's changed is that our Lord offered the ultimate sacrifice .. all else still stands ..not the letter meaning focusing on the specifics of the law ..but the purpose i.e your body is a temple presented worthy sacrifice to the Lord...and i think this does mean avoiding what's not good for it...otherwise the declaration of some animals being unclean in the OT makes no sense.

As for Sabbath i think we should keep it as a day of rest again not going into the letter what's work and what's rest that's not important...God wanted us to remember His day it is a holy day....and again it makes no sense to say i will keep 9 out of the 10 .. just as it makes no sense to say i keep the highest command LOVE but i don't worry about the rest.

Richard H
Jan 18th 2011, 03:55 PM
...
As for Sabbath i think we should keep it as a day of rest again not going into the letter what's work and what's rest that's not important...God wanted us to remember His day it is a holy day....and again it makes no sense to say i will keep 9 out of the 10 .. just as it makes no sense to say i keep the highest command LOVE but i don't worry about the rest.
Good point, Doge.

I think the only think that's changed is that our Lord offered the ultimate sacrifice .. all else still stands ..not the letter meaning focusing on the specifics of the law ..but the purpose i.e your body is a temple presented worthy sacrifice to the Lord...and i think this does mean avoiding what's not good for it...otherwise the declaration of some animals being unclean in the OT makes no sense.Your thoughts on clean and unclean foods got me thinking, but my reply developed into a look at the larger picture.


By disobeying what YHVH had said, Adam and Eve unleashed the knowledge of good and evil.
Beginning with Cain, it became clear that man had a propensity to choose evil.
By the time of Noah, man choose to do evil continually. (Gen 6:5)

So God started from square-one to begin illustrating that while evil exists, so also good exists.
Again, God gave a commandment,
Well, actually 10 of them, ‘cause society by then had become a bit more complex.
…Here’s how you should treat God.
…Here’s how you should treat each other.

The regulations of Moses were concrete rules to illustrate the difference between the good and the evil.
…between clean and unclean, holy and that which is not holy.

Notice my pun: concrete rules for concrete thinking.
Additionally, concrete is a man-made substance, unlike stone.
“And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy,
and between unclean and clean;”
(Leviticus 10:10)
[See also: Ez 22:26 and 44:23]We're to “extract (distinguish and set aside as holy) the precious from the worthless”.

So NOW, Messiah has come and the rules of concrete have been superseded by
the “rules” concerning motivation and the heart of man.
Now, the examples of certain animals being clean and others being unclean are more of a mote point.
One could choose to prefer the taste of one or the other, but “it is not what goes into a man which defiles him”.

NOW, we are not just forgive 7 times and thereby meet our minimum obligation,
but we are to forgive 70x7.
…Not meaning that we can hold a grudge after 490 instances of forgiveness.
It is a whole ‘nother level of thinking
…Another level of “being”.

The concrete rules have been superseded, but what of the very basic concepts in stone?

It is the tradition of man which had done away with the Sabbath.
It was the RCC - bowing to Constantine who wished to unite his empire of pagans and Christians.
But even as early as 198 AD, the embryonic RCC began “Christianizing” the pagan population (making them comfortable) by integrating pagan ways into the church. “You don’t have to change your ways, just join Christendom.”

Now what was example in the OT of this happening?

The northern kingdom (the “house of Israel”) (not the “house of Judah”) mixed the unclean with the clean.
They adopted and intermingled pagan ways.

And what was God’s response?
Something which may shock people (Jer 3)
Hence, the lost tribes of Israel.
"Lost" by being actually intermingled with the nations so as to lose their identity.

This is why salvation was opened up for the gentiles as well.
He came for “the lost sheep of Israel”.

If we could find the actual tree of the knowledge of good and evil, should we now eat the fruit?
It was the eating (the disobedience) which brought that knowledge into the world.

But what of those basic concepts set in stone by which we understand how to treat God and how to treat each other?
Have they also been done away with?
And who accomplished this?

"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday .... Now the Church ... instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday."
Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About (1927),p. 136.Purgatory BTW, negates the sufficiency of Christ’ sufferings.
People must make up the difference in purgatory to make themselves “holy enough”.

As someone born in a Catholic hospital and born into a Catholic family, I now reject the authority of the RCC.
And so should I continue with a pagan day because it is convenient in today’s society – even unaccepted to be Christian and do otherwise?
And what of those simple precepts written by the finger of God? Have they been forgotten by time?

If I could somehow locate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
I would probably not eat of it, eventhough all foods have now been declared clean.

To me, it makes no difference WHEN Christians get together,
but it is folly to cling to the authority of the RCC that the Sabbath is now Sunday.
Protestants are more vehement then Catholics on justifying the rejection of the 7th day.

I don’t think God will become confused and think I'm "trying to be Jewish” (to be judged under Moses),
if I don’t run after the Catholics.

The Protestants didn’t protest enough, IMO.

Servant89
Jan 18th 2011, 10:24 PM
....but it is folly to cling to the authority of the RCC that the Sabbath is now Sunday.
Protestants are more vehement then Catholics on justifying the rejection of the 7th day.

The Protestants didn't protest enough, IMO.

Again, if you read my reasons why I love putting God first on my agenda for the week, not one has to do with me following the RCC. Stop telling us that is the reason why we do it. Not one of us do it for that. To me (and I know I am weird on this), to me, the pope is the antichrist, the aparitions of the virgin is the false prophet and the Vatican is Babylon the Great. So, to think that the reason why I put God first on my agenda for the week, is because I really care for what the pope says, well, that is not it. I am aware of history. But my reasons have nothing to do with anything outside Scripture as the thread that I started shows. Do not change the subject again please. That is not it. Lets talk about what makes us move in that direction.

Shalom