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fees
Jan 20th 2011, 06:18 PM
Must I confess sins of my forefathers to be cleansed from their sins so I am not in bondage to their sins. Ps.51:5 says I was born in iniquity my foref. sins. Some say bondages are carried to the children and we get release by confessing them. Ex. 20:5 God visits the fathers iniquity on the children. Some say Solomon was in bondage to lust becuase of his fathers David's lust.

RabbiKnife
Jan 20th 2011, 06:24 PM
No. This is not Biblical.

Ezekiel 18:20 is very clear on this point.

Paul is even clearer. "If any man (person) is in Christ, he (she) is a new creation; old things are passed away; behold, ALL things are made new."

There is no such thing as a generational curse that has any impact on a believer whatsoever.

fees
Jan 20th 2011, 06:45 PM
Are demons transferred unto children? There is proof isnt there? Then why does this happen? Is it not a open forefather door? Ezek. 18:20 Is it not speaking about judgement day where each will bear his own sin. I am not talking about that. 1John.1:9 Cleanse us from iniquity. The side effects of our parents sin are in us.

RabbiKnife
Jan 20th 2011, 07:18 PM
There is no Scriptural evidence to support the idea that demons are transferred to children.

fees
Jan 20th 2011, 09:39 PM
There is no Scriptural evidence to support the idea that demons are transferred to children.

I dont mean we will be held accountable at judgement for their sins.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

This baby did not sin yet but he had sinful(iniquity) tendencies, from whom did it come? His parents.
Why do we believe children can inherit physical diseases but we dont believe they can inherit spiritual diseases? Is Ps.51 not stating this?
Is it now common knowledge that some people are born with psychic\spirit abilities and when they are born again they dont just lose these abilities they need deliverence.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
This is a gradual process not done instantly. It says purify on purified.

RabbiKnife
Jan 20th 2011, 09:45 PM
I do not believe that Scripture teaches "deliverance from demonic spirits" for the believer.

We are clearly all born with a sinful nature. The Psalmist teaches this, as does Paul. There is no such thing as a "spiritual disease." Disease is a function of fallen creation in the human body.

No one is born with "psychic/spirit abilities." That is nonsense and without any biblical support.

fees
Jan 21st 2011, 01:13 PM
2Kor5:17 I am a new creation but there is more I must do like Col3:5,8 says I must lay down and let Jesus cleanse(gradual) me of my unrighteousness 1John1:7,9. Read Acts 8:23 Simon was born again v.13 but still in a binding(bond) of iniquity. Why would Jesus and the apostels deliver people of demons they could just tell poeple to become born again and they would be delivered.Mark16:17 Why would Jesus then say those who believe would speak in tongues and cast out demons?

Abiding
Jan 23rd 2011, 07:03 PM
Must I confess sins of my forefathers to be cleansed from their sins so I am not in bondage to their sins. Ps.51:5 says I was born in iniquity my foref. sins. Some say bondages are carried to the children and we get release by confessing them. Ex. 20:5 God visits the fathers iniquity on the children. Some say Solomon was in bondage to lust becuase of his fathers David's lust.

All of Adam's posterity is born in original sin. Since the fall, Adam lost his original righteousness, this he passes on to all his posterity. There is no escape from it.
We sin because we are sinners.

Butch5
Jan 23rd 2011, 08:25 PM
All of Adam's posterity is born in original sin. Since the fall, Adam lost his original righteousness, this he passes on to all his posterity. There is no escape from it.
We sin because we are sinners.

What exactly is original sin?

Abiding
Jan 23rd 2011, 09:21 PM
What exactly is original sin?When Adam sinned, the effect of that sin spread to all his posterity.
The effect or penalty of this first sin is, the loss of original righteousness, guilt, and the corruption of our whole nature. A fallen nature.

This inherent corruption, which all men after Adam are naturally born with, is called original sin.

This original sin, is the origin of all actual sin. we sin, because we are sinners.

Servant89
Jan 23rd 2011, 11:22 PM
When Adam sinned, the effect of that sin spread to all his posterity.
The effect or penalty of this first sin is, the loss of original righteousness, guilt, and the corruption of our whole nature. A fallen nature.

This inherent corruption, which all men after Adam are naturally born with, is called original sin.

This original sin, is the origin of all actual sin. we sin, because we are sinners.

Why cant people discuss doctrine out of the Bible?

There are two things that happened to Adam and Eve after they sinned.

1. The saw that they were naked and were ashamed of it.
2. They became aware of the knowledge of good and evil.

None of those two things arrive with us when we are born. Babies and todlers are naked and are not ashamed and they donot have the knowledge of good and evil. That is why God did not make them accountable for sin when they were in the desert being lead by Moses.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

shalom

Abiding
Jan 24th 2011, 01:58 AM
Abiding Wrote:
When Adam sinned, the effect of that sin spread to all his posterity.
The effect or penalty of this first sin is, the loss of original righteousness, guilt, and the corruption of our whole nature. A fallen nature.

This inherent corruption, which all men after Adam are naturally born with, is called original sin.

This original sin, is the origin of all actual sin. we sin, because we are sinners.
Why cant people discuss doctrine out of the Bible?

There are two things that happened to Adam and Eve after they sinned.

1. The saw that they were naked and were ashamed of it.
2. They became aware of the knowledge of good and evil.Ok, let me get this straight, what your stating is, them seeing they were naked and ashamed of it and being aware of the knowledge of good and evil is all that happen?
Interesting.
Ok, lets have a look....


None of those two things arrive with us when we are born. Babies and todlers are naked and are not ashamed and they donot have the knowledge of good and evil.

That is why God did not make them accountable for sin when they were in the desert being lead by Moses.Respectfully, you are very short sighted.


Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.If you look at the context, you will see that this has nothing to do with the nature of the human race, but instead these will enjoy the inheritance of the promised land, where all the other will not. Well, I assume you know how the story goes? And God who is faithful, will fulfill His promise about the promised land with their children, who at that time were infants, who had no part in despising the inheritance.

Now, back to your original question:
Why cant people discuss doctrine out of the Bible? I have no problem with doing that.

Why do you insist on not believing what scripture teaches, and insert a passage that has no meaning in the Genesis passage of the fall? If you have scripture which teaches an opposite, then please, by all means, present it. But, good luck in this case.

Butch5
Jan 24th 2011, 01:59 AM
When Adam sinned, the effect of that sin spread to all his posterity.
The effect or penalty of this first sin is, the loss of original righteousness, guilt, and the corruption of our whole nature. A fallen nature.

This inherent corruption, which all men after Adam are naturally born with, is called original sin.
.
This original sin, is the origin of all actual sin. we sin, because we are sinners.

Can you give some Scripture to support that idea? I see nothing in Scripture that states that Adam changed after his sin other than knowing the difference between good and evil. I don't see anything about a change in his nature. If would seem that Adam had the ability to sin from the time he was created.

Butch5
Jan 24th 2011, 02:04 AM
If you look at the context, you will see that this has nothing to do with the nature of the human race, but instead these will enjoy the inheritance of the promised land, where all the other will not. Well, I assume you know how the story goes? And God who is faithful, will fulfill His promise about the promised land with their children, who at that time were infants, who had no part in despising the inheritance.

It may be speaking to a different subject, however, he clearly says they had no knowledge of good or evil. Is there a different kind of good and evil to have knowledge of. Doesn't one either know good and evil or not?


Now, back to your original question: I have no problem with doing that.

Why do you insist on not believing what scripture teaches, and insert a passage that has no meaning in the Genesis passage of the fall? If you have scripture which teaches an opposite, then please, by all means, present it. But, good luck in this case.

You haven't shown where Scripture teaches such a thing.

dagar
Jan 24th 2011, 02:07 AM
Why cant people discuss doctrine out of the Bible?

There are two things that happened to Adam and Eve after they sinned.

1. The saw that they were naked and were ashamed of it.
2. They became aware of the knowledge of good and evil.

None of those two things arrive with us when we are born. Babies and todlers are naked and are not ashamed and they donot have the knowledge of good and evil. That is why God did not make them accountable for sin when they were in the desert being lead by Moses.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

shalomThank you!!!!!!!!!!!

Abiding
Jan 24th 2011, 02:21 AM
Can you give some Scripture to support that idea? I see nothing in Scripture that states that Adam changed after his sin other than knowing the difference between good and evil. I don't see anything about a change in his nature. If would seem that Adam had the ability to sin from the time he was created.I don't understand how someone can not see it. Sure Butch, I will give you scriptures. But first, did you know Adam probably broke all 10 commandments when he sinned? I will point out a few for you to consider.

Commandment#
1) he chose himself another god when he followed the devil.

3) He took the name of God in vain when he didn't believe God.

5) He dishonored his Father. Therefore his days were not prolonged in the land God gave him.

6) He massacred himself and all his posterity.

9) he bare witness against God, when he believed the witness of the devil before him.

10) He coveted an evil covetousness, which cost him his life.

Match them up to the commandments and see for yourself.

Abiding
Jan 24th 2011, 02:31 AM
It may be speaking to a different subject, however, he clearly says they had no knowledge of good or evil. Is there a different kind of good and evil to have knowledge of. Doesn't one either know good and evil or not?The generation of people who God brought out of Egypt, distrusted and provoked God, they were disobedient and didnt believe God. Therefore they were not alloed to enter the promised land. Read the history of the people after the Exodus in Deuteronomy Ch 1. Its there for you, and when you read it you will notice vs: 39 'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it. when kept where it belongs, in context, it is very easy to understand what the meaning is. These, who were infants at the time, had no knowledge of their fathers sins, they had taken no part in it, and they will be allowed to enter the promised land.

If you cannot see this, I don't know what else to tell you. Sorry.

Abiding
Jan 24th 2011, 02:54 AM
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Butch, what is the reason here for death? breaking on of God commandments. Which is a sin. And the penalty here is death.
So, what else do we have now besides realizing they were naked, and knowing good and evil? Death!

Gen 3:4-7 4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.
So, now you see they were deceived and took and ate. And yes, they saw they were naked and their eyes were opened.

So, now we have two people, Adam and Eve, eyes open, naked and dead. If you say they were not dead as soon as they ate, you call God a liar.

Now here we go, a fallen nature in action. 12-13.
Gen 3:10-13 10And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself." 11He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 12The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." 13Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

They hid from God, Adam passed the buck onto Eve, Eve passed the buck on to the devil. That is a disposition of the fallen nature. Look around, you will find it all over the world. Do you see the decline in their nature?

It gets worse, read verses 14-19 for starters.

So up to this point what happened after they sinned? They realized they were naked and their eyes were open, that's all right? Read again.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.1 Cor 15:22.

All of Adam's posterity, this is everyone ever born after Adam, is dead. Spiritually dead, void of original righteousness. Born with original sin. There is no escaping this.

All Historical Christianity teaches this. Pelagianism disagrees, which are you?

There is a lot of teaching in scripture about this.

Butch5
Jan 24th 2011, 03:49 AM
I don't understand how someone can not see it. Sure Butch, I will give you scriptures. But first, did you know Adam probably broke all 10 commandments when he sinned? I will point out a few for you to consider.

Commandment#
1) he chose himself another god when he followed the devil.

3) He took the name of God in vain when he didn't believe God.

5) He dishonored his Father. Therefore his days were not prolonged in the land God gave him.

6) He massacred himself and all his posterity.

9) he bare witness against God, when he believed the witness of the devil before him.

10) He coveted an evil covetousness, which cost him his life.

Match them up to the commandments and see for yourself.

Firstly, Adam didn't have those commandments, however, this does not explain how Adam changed after his sin. If as you say Adam committed all of these sins, didn't he choose to do so before he actually sinned? If so, then he was that way before the fall and not made that way because of the fall.

Butch5
Jan 24th 2011, 03:52 AM
The generation of people who God brought out of Egypt, distrusted and provoked God, they were disobedient and didnt believe God. Therefore they were not alloed to enter the promised land. Read the history of the people after the Exodus in Deuteronomy Ch 1. Its there for you, and when you read it you will notice vs: 39 'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it. when kept where it belongs, in context, it is very easy to understand what the meaning is. These, who were infants at the time, had no knowledge of their fathers sins, they had taken no part in it, and they will be allowed to enter the promised land.

If you cannot see this, I don't know what else to tell you. Sorry.

While what you say is correct, it doesn't change the fact. God didn't say they didn't know their fathers sins, He said they didn't know good and evil. It seems you are interpreting the passages instead of just reading them.

Butch5
Jan 24th 2011, 04:16 AM
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Butch, what is the reason here for death? breaking on of God commandments. Which is a sin. And the penalty here is death.
So, what else do we have now besides realizing they were naked, and knowing good and evil? Death!

Gen 3:4-7 4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.
So, now you see they were deceived and took and ate. And yes, they saw they were naked and their eyes were opened.

So, now we have two people, Adam and Eve, eyes open, naked and dead. If you say they were not dead as soon as they ate, you call God a liar.

Now here we go, a fallen nature in action. 12-13.
Gen 3:10-13 10And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself." 11He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 12The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." 13Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

They hid from God, Adam passed the buck onto Eve, Eve passed the buck on to the devil. That is a disposition of the fallen nature. Look around, you will find it all over the world. Do you see the decline in their nature?

It gets worse, read verses 14-19 for starters.

So up to this point what happened after they sinned? They realized they were naked and their eyes were open, that's all right? Read again.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.1 Cor 15:22.

All of Adam's posterity, this is everyone ever born after Adam, is dead. Spiritually dead, void of original righteousness. Born with original sin. There is no escaping this.

All Historical Christianity teaches this. Pelagianism disagrees, which are you?

There is a lot of teaching in scripture about this.

No, my friend, all historical Christianity does not teach this. There is nothing stated in Scripture about anyone being spiritually dead, that teaching comes from the Reformation. There is not a single Scripture that states man is spiritually dead, some have inferred that from certain passages.

You've taken the passage from Genesis and inferred that it means spiritual death when no such thing is stated. However, we know that physical death entered the world through Adam. Paul said the wages of sin is death. God said the soul that sinneth shall die. All sin and all die.

God told Adam in the day he ate from the tree he would die. This is easily explained, all we need to do is look at the Psalms and Peter's explanation of the delay in Christ's return.


Psalms 90:4 ( KJV )
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 ( KJV )
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Adam lived 930 years, according to Psalm 90 and Peter's words that would mean that Adam died in the day he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

OK, you've shown where Adam committed his sin, he learned of good and evil, and that death entered into the world. I still don't see anything different about Adam, other than the fact that he learned good and evil. Where is the change that supposedly took place in his nature. When God finished His creation, He said it was very good. At that point Adam had the ability to sin, After "The Fall" Adam still has the ability to sin, the only difference is that he now knows the difference between good and evil. This does not speak to his nature.

I'm sorry friend, but there just doesn't seem to be any change in Adam's nature mentioned. I have asked quite a few people who hold the same position that you do to show this supposed change in nature, yet no one has been able to show it. Instead it has to be inferred.

Scruffy Kid
Jan 24th 2011, 09:38 AM
The Bible repeatedly says things which seem to teach that the transgression of our first parents led to a general corruption of human nature

Romans 5:12-14 states

... just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. One way that this has been understood is that because of Adam's sin our human nature was messed up.

That reading coheres with the Genesis text in several ways.

(1) Immediately following that sin, the man and woman find their nature messed-up and broken. They seek to hide, from God, themselves, one another. They start to blame others.

(2) The kids, are very much messed up, and in ways similar to the parents. The deterioration of humankind persists -- through the generations of Cain's descendants and the generations of humankind through the Noah narrative, in particular.

(3) Also, the language of the curse -- "cursed is the ground because of you" strongly suggests that the very stuff of human nature (Adam's nature) has been corrupted because of what he has done. The passage (in Gen. 3) has God saying to the man:

Cursed is the ground because of you;
.....in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
.....thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
.....and you shall eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your face
.....you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
.....for out of it you were taken;
.....for you are dust,
.....and to dust you shall return.If we recall that the word for humanity, or "man" is "adam" in this account, and that the word for ground is "adamah" -- a verbal byplay emphasized at the account of the creation of humanity in Gen. 2, and linked and reitereated here -- then it is hard (IMO) not to read this curse as God's declaration that human nature (the ground from which we are formed) has been corrupted, messed-up, by what the man and woman have done, so that whereas God's intent was that humanity should naturally bring forth good deeds, now this happens only with difficulty, but we bring forth nasty stuff all too easily.

(4) In addition to these indications in early Genesis, we have the general fallenness of even God's chosen and favorite people -- Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, and so on -- and the whole tenor of the fallen world in which we find ourselves from the earliest accounts of kingdoms and peoples in Genesis.

(5) Beyond this, God states that "the iniquities of the fathers shall be visited on the children to the 3rd and 4th generation" -- and this is a fact we do indeed observe: that the character, and problems, of previous generations seems to be embedded biologically, as well as by imitation, in later generations.

Let me be clear about this 5th point. I emphatically agree with all that Rabbi Knife has said above: no evidence of "family curses" or "demons inherited" or anything of the sort. With Knife, I'm opposed to such teachings which are unscriptural. Rather, I'm speaking of the inheritance of human nature, which -- after the sin of our first parents -- is "incurvatus in se", curved-in upon ourselves, selfish and rebellious, from the start, and also a flawed inheritance in various particular ways.

What I am defending, instead, is that there is Biblical support for the idea of fallen human nature. This takes additional color from:

(6) What Paul says in Romans 5, quoted above, where Paul seems to speak of "death" -- spiritual death -- which spread to humankind from "Adam's transgression", just as God had warned (in Genesis 2-3) that it would.

(7) and, arguably, from Jesus' saying to his opponents that, although good, pious, and not idolators, that they have the evil one as their father.

(8) In general, the Bible speaks of new birth, and regeneration, as something that transforms fallen human nature, and "the old man" renewing us as "a new man".

However, let me reiterate, this venerable teaching, which has a strong biblical base to support it, and the witness of Christian understanding (the work of the Holy Spirit among God's faithful people) through the ages supporting it also, should not be confused with stuff about generational curses, or inherited spirits, which has no biblical support, nor support in the teaching of the historic church.

Abiding
Jan 24th 2011, 01:22 PM
Firstly, Adam didn't have those commandments, however, this does not explain how Adam changed after his sin.No, Adam did not have those commandments before him, is right. But, God's law is eternal. Satan broke it well before Adam was created. God is immutable.


If as you say Adam committed all of these sins, didn't he choose to do so before he actually sinned? If so, then he was that way before the fall and not made that way because of the fall.That's nonesence.

Abiding
Jan 24th 2011, 01:25 PM
While what you say is correct, it doesn't change the fact. God didn't say they didn't know their fathers sins, He said they didn't know good and evil. It seems you are interpreting the passages instead of just reading them.
Butch, seriously, do you understand how to interpret passages in their proper context? There is a point why Moses wrote verse 39 the way he did, and it is not about man's position after the fall.
You should discuss the proper was of interpreting and studying scripture to your pastor, maybe you will believe him.

Abiding
Jan 24th 2011, 01:31 PM
The Bible repeatedly says things which seem to teach that the transgression of our first parents led to a general corruption of human nature

Romans 5:12-14 states

... just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. One way that this has been understood is that because of Adam's sin our human nature was messed up.

That reading coheres with the Genesis text in several ways.

(1) Immediately following that sin, the man and woman find their nature messed-up and broken. They seek to hide, from God, themselves, one another. They start to blame others.

(2) The kids, are very much messed up, and in ways similar to the parents. The deterioration of humankind persists -- through the generations of Cain's descendants and the generations of humankind through the Noah narrative, in particular.

(3) Also, the language of the curse -- "cursed is the ground because of you" strongly suggests that the very stuff of human nature (Adam's nature) has been corrupted because of what he has done. The passage (in Gen. 3) has God saying to the man:

Cursed is the ground because of you;
.....in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
.....thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
.....and you shall eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your face
.....you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
.....for out of it you were taken;
.....for you are dust,
.....and to dust you shall return.If we recall that the word for humanity, or "man" is "adam" in this account, and that the word for ground is "adamah" -- a verbal byplay emphasized at the account of the creation of humanity in Gen. 2, and linked and reitereated here -- then it is hard (IMO) not to read this curse as God's declaration that human nature (the ground from which we are formed) has been corrupted, messed-up, by what the man and woman have done, so that whereas God's intent was that humanity should naturally bring forth good deeds, now this happens only with difficulty, but we bring forth nasty stuff all too easily.

(4) In addition to these indications in early Genesis, we have the general fallenness of even God's chosen and favorite people -- Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, and so on -- and the whole tenor of the fallen world in which we find ourselves from the earliest accounts of kingdoms and peoples in Genesis.

(5) Beyond this, God states that "the iniquities of the fathers shall be visited on the children to the 3rd and 4th generation" -- and this is a fact we do indeed observe: that the character, and problems, of previous generations seems to be embedded biologically, as well as by imitation, in later generations.

Let me be clear about this 5th point. I emphatically agree with all that Rabbi Knife has said above: no evidence of "family curses" or "demons inherited" or anything of the sort. With Knife, I'm opposed to such teachings which are unscriptural. Rather, I'm speaking of the inheritance of human nature, which -- after the sin of our first parents -- is "incurvatus in se", curved-in upon ourselves, selfish and rebellious, from the start, and also a flawed inheritance in various particular ways.

What I am defending, instead, is that there is Biblical support for the idea of fallen human nature. This takes additional color from:

(6) What Paul says in Romans 5, quoted above, where Paul seems to speak of "death" -- spiritual death -- which spread to humankind from "Adam's transgression", just as God had warned (in Genesis 2-3) that it would.

(7) and, arguably, from Jesus' saying to his opponents that, although good, pious, and not idolators, that they have the evil one as their father.

(8) In general, the Bible speaks of new birth, and regeneration, as something that transforms fallen human nature, and "the old man" renewing us as "a new man".

However, let me reiterate, this venerable teaching, which has a strong biblical base to support it, and the witness of Christian understanding (the work of the Holy Spirit among God's faithful people) through the ages supporting it also, should not be confused with stuff about generational curses, or inherited spirits, which has no biblical support, nor support in the teaching of the historic church.Nice Job! Butch, it will do you good to consider it. But sadly, I think you will find some excuse not to and just turn your head.

Butch5
Jan 26th 2011, 05:46 AM
No, Adam did not have those commandments before him, is right. But, God's law is eternal. Satan broke it well before Adam was created. God is immutable.

Adam had one commandment, don't eat from the tree, he did. What changed?


That's nonesence.

Nonsense??? Sin is conceived in the mind, It is a thought befire it is an action.

Butch5
Jan 26th 2011, 05:59 AM
Butch, seriously, do you understand how to interpret passages in their proper context? There is a point why Moses wrote verse 39 the way he did, and it is not about man's position after the fall.
You should discuss the proper was of interpreting and studying scripture to your pastor, maybe you will believe him.

Actually, yes, I do know how to interpret a passage of Scripture. It is because of the fact that I know how to interpret Scripture that I don't read things into the text that are not there. Things such as the children knew nothing of their fathers sins. God didn't says that my friend, He said just what you posted in verse 39.


39 'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

Please show me where this passage says anything about the children knowing or not knowing about their fathers sins. My friend, I would suggest reading the Scripture for exactly what they say and nothing more. When we read what they say we can understand what they mean. From our conversations so far, it seems to me that you are reading quite a bit into the Scriptures. Here you have stated that the little ones didn't know the sins of their fathers, the Scriptures say no such thing. In another thread you have stated that man is spiritually dead, which that passage nor the rest of Scripture states. Just read what it says, not what you've been taught that it says.

Butch5
Jan 26th 2011, 06:04 AM
Nice Job! Butch, it will do you good to consider it. But sadly, I think you will find some excuse not to and just turn your head.

Why would it do me good? There are assumptions which are not stated in Scripture. "It seems" is an opinion. "One way that this has been understood" indicates that there are other understandings, which have not been given.

This is Scruffy kid's opinion and that is fine, but it is opinion.

RabbiKnife
Jan 26th 2011, 01:49 PM
Butch, seriously, do you understand how to interpret passages in their proper context? There is a point why Moses wrote verse 39 the way he did, and it is not about man's position after the fall.
You should discuss the proper was of interpreting and studying scripture to your pastor, maybe you will believe him.

Maybe you could be more condenscending in your posts. I doubt it, but it might be possible, o Sage of Eternal Wisdom and Light, Knower of Men's Hearts and Instructor of all Cretans.

How about you chill with the "how could you be so stupid" remarks?