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jwd
Jan 27th 2011, 12:54 AM
Hi all I have a question I've been debating in my head for a while.
The Lord is completely 'just', therefore am I right is saying that all sin is 'not forgiven'? The reason I think that sin is not forgiven is because: there is allways a price to pay for sin. It seems to be a matter of 'who pays for it?' Does man pay the price for his sin, or does Christ pay the price for man?
Therefore I am comming to a conclusion that although sin is never forgiven, the man who commits the sin can be forgiven of his sins, simply because Christ pays. Its a somewhat sobering thought, but Im hoping to see if anyone else would agree, or clarify any other, or alternative views on this.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2011, 02:35 AM
Hi all I have a question I've been debating in my head for a while.
The Lord is completely 'just', therefore am I right is saying that all sin is 'not forgiven'? The reason I think that sin is not forgiven is because: there is allways a price to pay for sin. It seems to be a matter of 'who pays for it?' Does man pay the price for his sin, or does Christ pay the price for man?
Therefore I am comming to a conclusion that although sin is never forgiven, the man who commits the sin can be forgiven of his sins, simply because Christ pays. Its a somewhat sobering thought, but Im hoping to see if anyone else would agree, or clarify any other, or alternative views on this.

Hi jwd,

Can you elaborate? God forgives the sins of the believer.

jwd
Jan 27th 2011, 02:46 AM
Yes, your saying he forgives the sins of the believer. What I thought was that sin is not forgiven- because there is a charge for sin. Either one perishes for sin, or Christs sacrifice pays for sin. It sounds like 'although the sins are not forgiven, the individual commiting those sins is forgiven'. I do remember hearing a preacher saying that if Christ is completely just, he cannot forgive sins.. he can only provide attonement for them. If this is true it is somewhat sobering to realise that 'sin must be paid for', it just depends who- me, or Christ (in his grace).

Athanasius
Jan 27th 2011, 02:51 AM
Just because I want to be clear on this... Does it make sense to you that through Jesus our sins have been atoned, but not forgiven?

jwd
Jan 27th 2011, 02:59 AM
It would make sense to me to know that 'I' was forgiven for commiting sins- though the charge for my sins was 'death'-in which Christ obliged mecifully. Its the fact that 'someone must die' for sin that makes me think, 'sin is not forgiven', but 'I am forgiven'. Sin must be paid for by someone.

jeffweeder
Jan 27th 2011, 03:14 AM
Its true that if you do not ask for forgiveness ( repent ) you will not be forgiven.

luke1948
Jan 27th 2011, 04:00 AM
Yes, sin is not only forgiven but it is totally erased from Gods memory, Psalms 103. Repent (change your mind) for the remission(taking away) of sins. When you believe on the name of Jesus and what He did for us, you are counted as righteous. He paid the price for your sin. If you think you are not forgiven, then you make Christ of no effect. The devil is always trying to convince us that we are not really forgiven, when we are. Use your faith and believe!

Kahtar
Jan 27th 2011, 04:27 AM
No one seems to have understood the OP at all. Interesting.
Yes JWD, you are absolutely correct. WE are forgiven, but the sin itself is not. Every sin is an act of rebellion against God. As such, every sin requires eternal separation from God. God is our lifesource. Being separated from our lifesource means we are 'dead'.
Every sin will be 'paid for' by death (ie separation from God). God's law is just, and will be satisfied, in every single case. The question is, whose death will satisfy it? We can pay it ourselves, or we can accept the free gift that God provided in His Son, who died, and thus 'paid' for every sin of every man who will accept it in their place. By accepting His death, it is as if we ourselves died. Thus, our old man has died, and we are raised up in newness of life in Christ. He took our sin, we take his righteousness and life.

LookingUp
Jan 27th 2011, 04:42 AM
Hi jwd,

Can you elaborate? God forgives the sins of the believer.Notice that jwd ponders that since a price was paid for sin, sin really isn't simply "forgiven" at all.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2011, 04:52 AM
Notice that jwd ponders that since a price was paid for sin, sin really isn't simply "forgiven" at all.

yep, sound familiar???

jeffweeder
Jan 27th 2011, 04:53 AM
No one seems to have understood the OP at all. Interesting.
Yes JWD, you are absolutely correct. WE are forgiven, but the sin itself is not.

Yes
If one doesnt repent, their sin is not forgiven.

If sin is forgiven, then why a negative judgment for the unrepentant?

Butch5
Jan 27th 2011, 04:58 AM
Yes, your saying he forgives the sins of the believer. What I thought was that sin is not forgiven- because there is a charge for sin. Either one perishes for sin, or Christs sacrifice pays for sin. It sounds like 'although the sins are not forgiven, the individual committing those sins is forgiven'. I do remember hearing a preacher saying that if Christ is completely just, he cannot forgive sins.. he can only provide atonement for them. If this is true it is somewhat sobering to realise that 'sin must be paid for', it just depends who- me, or Christ (in his grace).

Hi jwd,

Let me explain how your sins can be both paid for and forgiven. Before Christ mankind was in bondage to Satan. Satan had charge of man since Adam sinned in the garden. Man was essentially kidnapped, however, Christ came as a ransom and paid the price to free mankind. Having paid the ransom price, Christ now had ownership of mankind, but, mankind still had the issue of the sin against God, it is these sins that God has forgiven. God has made a covenant in which anyone who places their faith in Christ can have their sins forgiven

LookingUp
Jan 27th 2011, 05:08 AM
Hi jwd,

Let me explain how your sins can be both paid for and forgiven. Before Christ mankind was in bondage to Satan. Satan had charge of man since Adam sinned in the garden. Man was essentially kidnapped, however, Christ came as a ransom and paid the price to free mankind. Having paid the ransom price, Christ now had ownership of mankind, but, mankind still had the issue of the sin against God, it is these sins that God has forgiven. God has made a covenant in which anyone who places their faith in Christ can have their sins forgivenThank you, Butch. :D

side note: Would you be willing to reply to my two most recent threads about Israel? It seems there is a difference between redeeming man from Satan & the curse of death and redeeming the nation of Israel from its curses.

jwd
Jan 27th 2011, 12:53 PM
Notice that jwd ponders that since a price was paid for sin, sin really isn't simply "forgiven" at all.

Yes the sin isnt, but the person is, because a randsom was paid for something that requires a price to be paid. The sinner is forgiven, even if the sin is not. This way of thinking puts in perspective the fact that man must be willing to repent, and humble himself to an almighty and 'just' God who will ensure there is punnishment for the sins that I have commited. It is through this that you realise the depth of his grace, the fact that if you repent and believe, he will die for the things that 'must' be paid for. I have come to the realisation that I am essentially a 'criminal', and the just punnishment can be graciously paid for through repentance- something ongoing.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2011, 02:08 PM
Yes the sin isnt, but the person is, because a ransom was paid for something that requires a price to be paid. The sinner is forgiven, even if the sin is not. This way of thinking puts in perspective the fact that man must be willing to repent, and humble himself to an almighty and 'just' God who will ensure there is punishment for the sins that I have committed. It is through this that you realise the depth of his grace, the fact that if you repent and believe, he will die for the things that 'must' be paid for. I have come to the realisation that I am essentially a 'criminal', and the just punishment can be graciously paid for through repentance- something ongoing.

Hi jwd,

Christ has already paid the ransom, he owns mankind. You will pay for your sin as does every man, Paul said the wages of sin is death, everyone sins and everyone dies. Thus your sins will be paid for. However, there is the issue of the offence against God, your sins were committed against God. Death is eternal unless God intervenes, He has, He has said that anyone who will place their faith in Christ, He will forgive their sins and save them.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2011, 02:08 PM
Thank you, Butch. :D

side note: Would you be willing to reply to my two most recent threads about Israel? It seems there is a difference between redeeming man from Satan & the curse of death and redeeming the nation of Israel from its curses.

Sure Julie, no problem.

Kahtar
Jan 27th 2011, 03:59 PM
I notice that some people CHOOSE not to 'understand' a person, put words in their mouth, and then belittle them for those words. Such ones are not worthy to have a conversation with.