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LookingUp
Jan 27th 2011, 03:40 AM
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

1. What does it mean to "grant repentance" to the nation of Israel?

2. Why does He need to grant forgiveness of sin to the nation of Israel (what do they need to be forgiven for?)?

3. In what way can the nation of Israel demonstrate their national repentance?

Adding for reference:

“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people, and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David His servant—as He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old—salvation FROM OUR ENEMIES, And FROM THE HAND OF ALL WHO HATE US;…to grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies, might serve Him without fear…” (Luke 1:68).

“At that very moment she came up and began giving thanks to God, and continued to speak to Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem” (Luke 2:38).

“But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel” (Luke 24:21).

“Lord, is it at this time you are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6).

Raybob
Jan 27th 2011, 06:42 AM
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

1. What does it mean to "grant repentance" to the nation of Israel?I don't believe this has to do with any "nations". The "nation" at the time the NT was written was Judaeh, not "Israel". "Isreal" was a name for "God's people".


2. Why does He need to grant forgiveness of sin to the nation of Israel (what do they need to be forgiven for?)?All people need forgiveness of sin as they were born in sin and need a savior.


3. In what way can the nation of Israel demonstrate their national repentance?Impossible. Repentance is a personal thing, not a national thing. An entire nation cannot repent. There will always be some in that nation that doesn't want to.

Raybob

LookingUp
Jan 27th 2011, 08:26 AM
[/U]bob;2607597]I don't believe this has to do with any "nations". The "nation" at the time the NT was written was Judaeh,Huh? Does it have to do with any "nations" or was it the "nation" of Judah?


not "Israel". "Isreal" was a name for "God's people".It is written, “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins” (Acts 5:31). Who is “Israel”? What does it mean to grant repentance to the nation of Israel?


All people need forgiveness of sin as they were born in sin and need a savior.OK. Why does God need to grant forgiveness of sin to the nation of Israel according to Acts 5:31 (what do they need to be forgiven for?)?


Impossible. Repentance is a personal thing, not a national thing. An entire nation cannot repent. There will always be some in that nation that doesn't want to.I agree that there is personal repentance. What does it mean that the Prince and Savior (Acts 5:31) will grant repentance to the nation of Israel?

Raybob
Jan 27th 2011, 08:33 AM
...What does it mean that the Prince and Savior (Acts 5:31) will grant repentance to the nation of Israel?

Acts 5:31 doesn't mention "nation of..." at all. This isn't speaking of any nation, it speaks of individuals, God's people.

You seem to be forgetting something:

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(Rom 9:6)

Butch5
Jan 27th 2011, 03:37 PM
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

1. What does it mean to "grant repentance" to the nation of Israel?

I don't think it means grant repentance to Israel as a nation, but as individuals. Christ came to the Jews and salvation is through the Jews. Paul says in Romans that the Gentiles were grafted in, they were grafted into Israel. It is Israel, the jews who have the covenant promises.Jesus was Jewish and it is He who has the inheritance. I know it may not be popular but the Gentile's salvation comes through the Jews.


Galatians 3:21-25 ( NKJV )
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

The we and the us here are the Jews, it was the Jews who were under the Law. He continues,

Galatians 4:1-7 ( KJV )
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Paul says that when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, to redeem them that were underthe Law. I think this is what is being referred to as bringing repentance to Israel.


2. Why does He need to grant forgiveness of sin to the nation of Israel (what do they need to be forgiven for?)?

Again, I think it is individual Forgiveness, just that it is going to Israel first.


3. In what way can the nation of Israel demonstrate their national repentance?

Again, I think it is individual.

David Taylor
Jan 27th 2011, 04:08 PM
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

Nice verse. Expand the context each way a bit, to get the fuller intent from that passage....

Acts 5:30-33
"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them. "


So what Peter is saying here, is that even though the same God who raised of Jesus from the dead is the same God of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), and even though it was the same people who the Father sent Jesus to who slew Him; the Father still yet provides repentance to any and all Israelites who will repent and obey God by accepting Christ.

In this case, the High priests had no intention of repenting, to them, Jesus was a joke and a blasphemy, therefore they got made a Peter and the other apostles, and started devising plans to kill them just like they killed Christ.





1. What does it mean to "grant repentance" to the nation of Israel?


It doesn't say anything about the nation of Israel. It only tells us that the God of Israel sent Jesus, yet many of Israel chose to reject and slay Jesus. However, God still will provide forgivness for any Israelite who will repent and turn to obey Him.




2. Why does He need to grant forgiveness of sin to the nation of Israel (what do they need to be forgiven for?)?


He doesn't. God only grants forgiveness of sin to individuals. Human beings need to be forgiven, because human beings sin. Governments don't sin, they simply act upon the selfish sins of the individual people who are running them. A government can no more repent than a dog or a shoe. People repent, and people are forgiven, and this is a matter of the heart done individually.



3. In what way can the nation of Israel demonstrate their national repentance?
[/quote]

They can't do this. Salvation is one person at a time. Sure you could have a big revival event like Pentecost where the Spirit moves over a large crowd, and alot of individuals repent at one time; but that still isn't group-salvation; that is only individual-salvation of alot of different people at the same time.

That's why Peter addressed all the people of Israel and their children in Acts chapter 2, and told them that they must individually repent to receive remission of sins...and that remission is available at anytime from any generation of themselves or their children, when they individually repent.

Salvation, remission, repentance, etc... is always an individual action between the heart of an individual lost sinner and their Creator.

David Taylor
Jan 27th 2011, 04:10 PM
It is written, “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins” (Acts 5:31). Who is “Israel”?

"Israel" in this context, is the individual people of Israel, the children of the fathers.

Acts 5:31 nor anywhere else, teach governmental group salvation, remission, or forgiveness.

LookingUp
Jan 27th 2011, 07:06 PM
Acts 5:31 doesn't mention "nation of..." at all. This isn't speaking of any nation, it speaks of individuals, God's people.Israel is a nation of individuals, but Luke doesn’t put it that way. He says that the Savior will grant repentance to ISRAEL. I’m not saying that individuals don’t have the opportunity to repent, be forgiven, and partake in the promise of eternal life. I’m trying to figure out what all this talk is about the NATION of Israel. After Zacharias named John, he prophesied saying that redemption had come for His people and that this redemption was “salvation from their enemies” (Luke 1:68). Luke also tells us that the people were looking for “the redemption of Jerusalem” (Luke 2:38), that He was going to “redeem Israel” (Luke 24:21), and that He would at some point, “restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6). In light of all this, it seems that the repentance and forgiveness of Acts 5 is national.


You seem to be forgetting something:

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(Rom 9:6)I’m not forgetting that. Individual repentance relating to eternal life is available.

LookingUp
Jan 27th 2011, 07:24 PM
I don't think it means grant repentance to Israel as a nation, but as individuals.What about when Zacharias prophesies that Israel will have redemption, salvation from their enemies (Luke 1:68)? Sounds like a national blessing to me. Luke also says that the people were looking for “the redemption of Jerusalem” (Luke 2:38), that He was going to “redeem Israel” (Luke 24:21) and that He would eventually “restore the kingdom to Israel” (Acts 1:6). All this seems to point to some kind of national repentance, forgiveness and restoration.


Christ came to the Jews and salvation is through the Jews.Yes, individual salvation relating to eternal life is through the Jews.


Paul says in Romans that the Gentiles were grafted in, they were grafted into Israel. It is Israel, the jews who have the covenant promises.Jesus was Jewish and it is He who has the inheritance. I know it may not be popular but the Gentile's salvation comes through the Jews.Is it possible Jesus inherited both a temporary, physical kingdom and an eternal, spiritual kingdom?


Galatians 3:21-25 ( NKJV )
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

The we and the us here are the Jews, it was the Jews who were under the Law. He continues,I agree.


Galatians 4:1-7 ( KJV )
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Paul says that when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, to redeem them that were underthe Law. I think this is what is being referred to as bringing repentance to Israel.Is it possible that God grants repentance to individuals relating to eternal life and also will grant national repentance to Israel as He so often did in the OT, and bring them back into the land to experience the blessings with Jesus as King?


Again, I think it is individual Forgiveness, just that it is going to Israel first.

Again, I think it is individual.In what way did the nation demonstrate their national repentance (or national disobedience) in OT days? Somehow God judged the nation as a whole. He blessed and cursed the entire nation whether there were faithful ("saved") individuals within the nation or not.

LookingUp
Jan 27th 2011, 07:29 PM
"Israel" in this context, is the individual people of Israel, the children of the fathers.

Acts 5:31 nor anywhere else, teach governmental group salvation, remission, or forgiveness.I'm not talking about repentance leading to eternal life. God granted repentance and forgiveness to the nation of Israel in OT days. How did Israel demonstrate national repentance in OT days?

LookingUp
Jan 27th 2011, 07:43 PM
Nice verse. Expand the context each way a bit, to get the fuller intent from that passage....


Acts 5:30-33
"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them. "


So what Peter is saying here, is that even though the same God who raised of Jesus from the dead is the same God of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), and even though it was the same people who the Father sent Jesus to who slew Him; the Father still yet provides repentance to any and all Israelites who will repent and obey God by accepting Christ.

In this case, the High priests had no intention of repenting, to them, Jesus was a joke and a blasphemy, therefore they got made a Peter and the other apostles, and started devising plans to kill them just like they killed Christ.Well, I see that God grants repentance relating to eternal life to individuals. But I’m also seeing some kind of national offer in Scripture. Zacharias prophesies that Israel will have redemption, salvation from their enemies (Luke 1:68), and Luke tells us that the people were looking for “the redemption of Jerusalem” (Luke 2:38), that He was going to “redeem Israel” (Luke 24:21), and that He would eventually “restore the kingdom to Israel” (Acts 1:6). All this seems to point to some kind of national repentance, forgiveness and restoration. I’m not thinking it’s the kind of repentance that leads to eternal life.


It doesn't say anything about the nation of Israel. It only tells us that the God of Israel sent Jesus, yet many of Israel chose to reject and slay Jesus. However, God still will provide forgivness for any Israelite who will repent and turn to obey Him.


He doesn't. God only grants forgiveness of sin to individuals. Human beings need to be forgiven, because human beings sin. Governments don't sin, they simply act upon the selfish sins of the individual people who are running them. A government can no more repent than a dog or a shoe. People repent, and people are forgiven, and this is a matter of the heart done individually.

They can't do this. Salvation is one person at a time. Sure you could have a big revival event like Pentecost where the Spirit moves over a large crowd, and alot of individuals repent at one time; but that still isn't group-salvation; that is only individual-salvation of alot of different people at the same time.

That's why Peter addressed all the people of Israel and their children in Acts chapter 2, and told them that they must individually repent to receive remission of sins...and that remission is available at anytime from any generation of themselves or their children, when they individually repent.

Salvation, remission, repentance, etc... is always an individual action between the heart of an individual lost sinner and their Creator.Didn’t Israel demonstrate disobedience and repentance as a nation in OT days? Didn’t God grant repentance and forgiveness to the nation as a whole? He blessed and cursed the entire nation as a whole whether there were faithful individual Jews within the nation or not.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2011, 09:36 PM
What about when Zacharias prophesies that Israel will have redemption, salvation from their enemies (Luke 1:68)? Sounds like a national blessing to me. Luke also says that the people were looking for “the redemption of Jerusalem” (Luke 2:38), that He was going to “redeem Israel” (Luke 24:21) and that He would eventually “restore the kingdom to Israel” (Acts 1:6). All this seems to point to some kind of national repentance, forgiveness and restoration.

Hi Julie,

Remember the Jews were looking for a conquering king, not a suffering Messiah. They expected that when Jesus came He would other throw Israel's enemies and reign as king. However, as we see from the Scriptures before that happens He must first come as a suffering servant. Yes, God will restore Israel at some point. However, at this point I am not sure to what degree. Remember Paul said, 'they are not all Israel who are of Israel'. So, it could be national Israel or Spiritual Israel.



Yes, individual salvation relating to eternal life is through the Jews.

Everything is through the Jews, not just eternal life.


Is it possible Jesus inherited both a temporary, physical kingdom and an eternal, spiritual kingdom?

Jesus has a physical kingdom, it is believers. God has given Christ the world for His inheritance.

Psalms 2:1-8 ( KJV )
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

The promises in Scripture speak of this inheritance. This inheritance is salvation.



Is it possible that God grants repentance to individuals relating to eternal life and also will grant national repentance to Israel as He so often did in the OT, and bring them back into the land to experience the blessings with Jesus as King?

I'm not sure, what have you seen in Scripture that might support this?


In what way did the nation demonstrate their national repentance (or national disobedience) in OT days? Somehow God judged the nation as a whole. He blessed and cursed the entire nation whether there were faithful ("saved") individuals within the nation or not.

Yes, but that was concerned with their occupying the land. It was not about the covenants of promise.

I am including a link to a PDF that I think may answer some of your questions.

http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/articles/hebrews_hope.pdf

David Taylor
Jan 27th 2011, 10:06 PM
Well, I see that God grants repentance relating to eternal life to individuals. But I’m also seeing some kind of national offer in Scripture.


Repentance is all directly related to sin. Nations don't sin, Nations don't exist. People within nations sin.

Repentance is seeking forgiveness from God for sin.

There are times when Israel as a group, is personified as if it were a person, where the group is characterized as representing the state of the individuals...but that's not an example of repentance from sin as a group. Sins are always individual.

Even if the OT tells us Israel or Judah or Egypt sinned against God, it is speaking of individuals who represent Israel or Judah or Egypt sinned against God. The individuals need to repent....they're all that can repent.



Zacharias prophesies that Israel will have redemption, salvation from their enemies (Luke 1:71),

But what was Zecharias ultimately talking about? Jesus Christ coming to save human beings from their individual sins. That's the redemption and salvation for Israel...for the people. Look more carefully at the narrative of Luke.....

1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Very individualistic.....to the people of Israel; not to the government or the nation; to the people of the Nation; through JESUS CHRIST incarnate....

Continuing on...

1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

All to individuals who would accept, embrace, believe, and follow the Christ child.

To individuals who would follow Jesus like like Simeon, and Anna, and Peter, and Andrew, and Stephen, and Luke.....
(but not to the Judean Government, or to King Herod, or to High Priest Caiphus and all who rejected Him.)




and Luke tells us that the people were looking for “the redemption of Jerusalem” (Luke 2:38), that He was going to “redeem Israel” (Luke 24:21), and that He would eventually “restore the kingdom to Israel” (Acts 1:6).


And Jesus did bring that....

to the people....redemption from sin through Jesus Christ to the people of Jerusalem.
to the people....redemption from sin through Jesus Christ to the people of Israel.

Not to a government or a nation or to anyone who would reject Him.




All this seems to point to some kind of national repentance, forgiveness and restoration. I’m not thinking it’s the kind of repentance that leads to eternal life.

Hopefully now, you can see the error in that type of thinking. repentance, forgiveness, and restoration through Christ is always individual and from sin. That's ultimately the only repentance....cause sin is what prevents any individual from attaining eternal life. It is always related.



Didn’t Israel demonstrate disobedience and repentance as a nation in OT days?

No...it was always the people of Israel that demonstrated disobedience and or repentance.



Didn’t God grant repentance and forgiveness to the nation as a whole? He blessed and cursed the entire nation as a whole whether there were faithful individual Jews within the nation or not.

God never cursed Israel when the people of the nation as a whole were faithful; he always blessed them when the people were faithful.

God never blessed Israel when the people of the nation as a whole were wicked; he always cursed them when the people turned wicked.

Again, nations and governments cannot repent from sin; only the individuals that they might represent can repent.

Here's are good examples from Jeremiah and Ezekiel, how he personifies the group (Israel or Judah) but is speaking directly to the individuals who need to repent....

Jer 26:1 "king of Judah came this word from the LORD, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Stand in the court of the LORD's house, and speak unto all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the LORD's house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto them; diminish not a word: If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings."

Ezek 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit"

Speaking always to the individuals to repent; through the personification of the group as a whole that has turned astray.

Same in the N.T. examples from Luke earlier...as well as here....another passage from Luke found in Acts:

Even though Peter addresses the House of Israel, he is talking to individuals, calling for repentance.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Does that help ?

John146
Jan 27th 2011, 10:06 PM
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

1. What does it mean to "grant repentance" to the nation of Israel?The same thing it means to grant repentance to the Gentiles.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God grants both Israelites and the Gentiles the opportunity for eternal life and the forgiveness of sins through faith in His Son Jesus Christ. The key to understanding the context of Acts 5:31 is that it's related to the forgiveness of sins which is an individual thing, not a national thing. It says "Israel" but it's speaking of the people of Israel, not the nation as a whole.


2. Why does He need to grant forgiveness of sin to the nation of Israel (what do they need to be forgiven for?)?It's not the nation itself that needs forgiveness, it's individuals from that nation who need forgiveness for their sins, just like individual Gentiles do.


3. In what way can the nation of Israel demonstrate their national repentance?I have no idea, but what God is looking for is for individuals to repent, not nations.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

napsnsnacks
Jan 28th 2011, 03:00 PM
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

1. What does it mean to "grant repentance" to the nation of Israel?

2. Why does He need to grant forgiveness of sin to the nation of Israel (what do they need to be forgiven for?)?

3. In what way can the nation of Israel demonstrate their national repentance?

Adding for reference:

The answer to your question is a matter of changing a few words:

1. What does it mean to "grant repentance" to sinners?

2. Why does He need to grant forgiveness of sin to man (what do they need to be forgiven for?)?

3. In what way can sincere believers demonstrate their repentance to God?

BroRog
Jan 29th 2011, 09:28 PM
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

1. What does it mean to "grant repentance" to the nation of Israel?

2. Why does He need to grant forgiveness of sin to the nation of Israel (what do they need to be forgiven for?)?

3. In what way can the nation of Israel demonstrate their national repentance?Those who think that a forgiveness is only granted to individuals and not to a nation seem to forget passages such as Daniel 9. In that chapter we read Daniel's confession and his petition in which he prays for himself and his people, because God had taken his people, as a people, into Babylon. Destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the surrounding areas because of their sins. And allowed the entire people, as a people, to suffer reproach from all the nations that surrounded her.

The Babylonian captivity was a national judgment against national sins. The punishment was universal punishment as everyone was either taken to Babylon or killed. God treated the entire nation the same, even though Israel had several righteous individuals among them including Daniel and his companions, whom God saved individually from the burning oven, and lion's dens, etc. The entire nation went into exile because the nation, as a nation -- not as individuals, were being held accountable for the sins of the nation. God poured out his anger and his wrath, not on individual people as individuals, but the nation as a nation, devastating entire cities and making the entire countryside desolate. And Daniel is not praying for himself only, but for his entire people group -- but not for their sake but for the sake of God's name as Daniel's main concern is God's "chesed", his covenant faithfulness.

When Gabriel gives the answer, he says, "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression . . ." -- "your people" and "the transgression". He says "your people" because the focus of the prayer concerns an entire people group, and so does the focus of the answer. He says, "the transgression" singular, because Daniel's people will commit a national sin, a singular transgression that will take place such that this transgression will become the riches of the world, as Paul says in Romans 11. It's a national transgression that God will redeem into salvation for both Jew and Gentile.

LookingUp
Jan 30th 2011, 12:42 AM
The same thing it means to grant repentance to the Gentiles.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God grants both Israelites and the Gentiles the opportunity for eternal life and the forgiveness of sins through faith in His Son Jesus Christ. The key to understanding the context of Acts 5:31 is that it's related to the forgiveness of sins which is an individual thing, not a national thing. It says "Israel" but it's speaking of the people of Israel, not the nation as a whole.

It's not the nation itself that needs forgiveness, it's individuals from that nation who need forgiveness for their sins, just like individual Gentiles do.

I have no idea, but what God is looking for is for individuals to repent, not nations.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.How would you respond to post #16?

LookingUp
Jan 30th 2011, 12:49 AM
Repentance is all directly related to sin. Nations don't sin, Nations don't exist. People within nations sin.

Repentance is seeking forgiveness from God for sin.

There are times when Israel as a group, is personified as if it were a person, where the group is characterized as representing the state of the individuals...but that's not an example of repentance from sin as a group. Sins are always individual.

Even if the OT tells us Israel or Judah or Egypt sinned against God, it is speaking of individuals who represent Israel or Judah or Egypt sinned against God. The individuals need to repent....they're all that can repent.


But what was Zecharias ultimately talking about? Jesus Christ coming to save human beings from their individual sins. That's the redemption and salvation for Israel...for the people. Look more carefully at the narrative of Luke.....

1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Very individualistic.....to the people of Israel; not to the government or the nation; to the people of the Nation; through JESUS CHRIST incarnate....

Continuing on...

1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

All to individuals who would accept, embrace, believe, and follow the Christ child.

To individuals who would follow Jesus like like Simeon, and Anna, and Peter, and Andrew, and Stephen, and Luke.....
(but not to the Judean Government, or to King Herod, or to High Priest Caiphus and all who rejected Him.)




And Jesus did bring that....

to the people....redemption from sin through Jesus Christ to the people of Jerusalem.
to the people....redemption from sin through Jesus Christ to the people of Israel.

Not to a government or a nation or to anyone who would reject Him.



Hopefully now, you can see the error in that type of thinking. repentance, forgiveness, and restoration through Christ is always individual and from sin. That's ultimately the only repentance....cause sin is what prevents any individual from attaining eternal life. It is always related.


No...it was always the people of Israel that demonstrated disobedience and or repentance.



God never cursed Israel when the people of the nation as a whole were faithful; he always blessed them when the people were faithful.

God never blessed Israel when the people of the nation as a whole were wicked; he always cursed them when the people turned wicked.

Again, nations and governments cannot repent from sin; only the individuals that they might represent can repent.

Here's are good examples from Jeremiah and Ezekiel, how he personifies the group (Israel or Judah) but is speaking directly to the individuals who need to repent....

Jer 26:1 "king of Judah came this word from the LORD, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Stand in the court of the LORD's house, and speak unto all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the LORD's house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto them; diminish not a word: If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings."

Ezek 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit"

Speaking always to the individuals to repent; through the personification of the group as a whole that has turned astray.

Same in the N.T. examples from Luke earlier...as well as here....another passage from Luke found in Acts:

Even though Peter addresses the House of Israel, he is talking to individuals, calling for repentance.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Does that help ?How would you respond to post #16?

LookingUp
Jan 30th 2011, 12:50 AM
Hi Julie,

Remember the Jews were looking for a conquering king, not a suffering Messiah. They expected that when Jesus came He would other throw Israel's enemies and reign as king. However, as we see from the Scriptures before that happens He must first come as a suffering servant. Yes, God will restore Israel at some point. However, at this point I am not sure to what degree. Remember Paul said, 'they are not all Israel who are of Israel'. So, it could be national Israel or Spiritual Israel.




Everything is through the Jews, not just eternal life.



Jesus has a physical kingdom, it is believers. God has given Christ the world for His inheritance.

Psalms 2:1-8 ( KJV )
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

The promises in Scripture speak of this inheritance. This inheritance is salvation.




I'm not sure, what have you seen in Scripture that might support this?



Yes, but that was concerned with their occupying the land. It was not about the covenants of promise.

I am including a link to a PDF that I think may answer some of your questions.

http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/articles/hebrews_hope.pdfThanks, Butch. But there are still things that aren't adding up. How would you respond to post #16?

Raybob
Jan 30th 2011, 02:02 AM
Those who think that a forgiveness is only granted to individuals and not to a nation seem to forget passages such as Daniel 9. In that chapter we read Daniel's confession and his petition in which he prays for himself and his people, because God had taken his people, as a people, into Babylon. Destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the surrounding areas because of their sins. And allowed the entire people, as a people, to suffer reproach from all the nations that surrounded her.

The Babylonian captivity was a national judgment against national sins. The punishment was universal punishment as everyone was either taken to Babylon or killed. God treated the entire nation the same, even though Israel had several righteous individuals among them including Daniel and his companions, whom God saved individually from the burning oven, and lion's dens, etc. The entire nation went into exile because the nation, as a nation -- not as individuals, were being held accountable for the sins of the nation. God poured out his anger and his wrath, not on individual people as individuals, but the nation as a nation, devastating entire cities and making the entire countryside desolate. And Daniel is not praying for himself only, but for his entire people group -- but not for their sake but for the sake of God's name as Daniel's main concern is God's "chesed", his covenant faithfulness. Actually, it was every individual in that nation that had sinned. Daniel, at that time, wasn't such a righteous person. He had a man killed so he could get his wife. That's not very righteous, IMO.


When Gabriel gives the answer, he says, "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression . . ." -- "your people" and "the transgression". He says "your people" because the focus of the prayer concerns an entire people group, and so does the focus of the answer. He says, "the transgression" singular, because Daniel's people will commit a national sin, a singular transgression that will take place such that this transgression will become the riches of the world, as Paul says in Romans 11. It's a national transgression that God will redeem into salvation for both Jew and Gentile.

Yes, 70 weeks were determined and completed. Those of Israel that believed finished the transgression by following Jesus. Again, this wasn't the entire nation but the elect of Israel plus the gentiles added later.

Mark F
Jan 30th 2011, 03:28 AM
Actually, it was every individual in that nation that had sinned. Daniel, at that time, wasn't such a righteous person. He had a man killed so he could get his wife. That's not very righteous, IMO.


Will you please point me to this Scripture that tells of this sin Dainiel committed?

Raybob
Jan 30th 2011, 04:05 AM
Will you please point me to this Scripture that tells of this sin Dainiel committed?

Sorry, I mixed up Daniel with David. The point is, it was individual sins commited by individuals that caused God to let Isreal be captive by Babylon.

BroRog
Jan 30th 2011, 05:20 PM
Sorry, I mixed up Daniel with David. The point is, it was individual sins commited by individuals that caused God to let Isreal be captive by Babylon.I've been teaching this for 10 years and I still can't get people to understand it. And I don't know why. I suspect that Americans simply have no concept of a national sin, or a national transgression, or God's idea that a people are being held culpable for the decisions of a nation's leaders. I don't understand why you don't see that Daniel is praying for his nation and his people as a nation and a people, rather than himself as an individual.

God made a covenant with his nation, and God kicked his nation out of the land according to that covenant. There is nothing about this that resembles individual culpablity. It was a national offense, and a national punishment.

I don't know why your mind went looking for Daniel's individual sins as if you might prove that God sent Daniel, himself, into exile as an individual for his own sins. Those who read Danile know that God favored Daniel and his friends. Daniel wasn't sent into exile because of his own sins, but simply because he was a citizen of a country God was punishing. The evidence is clear that God had nothing against Daniel personally. In fact, and this scares me at times, God mentions three people in the world who could deliver themselves because of their righteousness: Noah, Daniel, and Job. Try meditating on Ezekiel 14.

LookingUp
Jan 30th 2011, 11:44 PM
I've been teaching this for 10 years and I still can't get people to understand it. And I don't know why. I suspect that Americans simply have no concept of a national sin, or a national transgression, or God's idea that a people are being held culpable for the decisions of a nation's leaders. I don't understand why you don't see that Daniel is praying for his nation and his people as a nation and a people, rather than himself as an individual.

God made a covenant with his nation, and God kicked his nation out of the land according to that covenant. There is nothing about this that resembles individual culpablity. It was a national offense, and a national punishment.

I don't know why your mind went looking for Daniel's individual sins as if you might prove that God sent Daniel, himself, into exile as an individual for his own sins. Those who read Danile know that God favored Daniel and his friends. Daniel wasn't sent into exile because of his own sins, but simply because he was a citizen of a country God was punishing. The evidence is clear that God had nothing against Daniel personally. In fact, and this scares me at times, God mentions three people in the world who could deliver themselves because of their righteousness: Noah, Daniel, and Job. Try meditating on Ezekiel 14.Just curious...why does it scare you?

BroRog
Jan 31st 2011, 12:36 AM
Just curious...why does it scare you?You know how Daniel fell down weak and lost his balance in front of angels? I think, because of God's testimony about him and his awesomeness as a devoted faithful lover of God, who was righteous in all his ways, I would get weak-kneed around Daniel if I met him, I think.

LookingUp
Jan 31st 2011, 01:04 AM
You know how Daniel fell down weak and lost his balance in front of angels? I think, because of God's testimony about him and his awesomeness as a devoted faithful lover of God, who was righteous in all his ways, I would get weak-kneed around Daniel if I met him, I think.Yes, I see what you mean.

Servant89
Jan 31st 2011, 01:39 AM
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

1. What does it mean to "grant repentance" to the nation of Israel?

2. Why does He need to grant forgiveness of sin to the nation of Israel (what do they need to be forgiven for?)?

3. In what way can the nation of Israel demonstrate their national repentance?

Adding for reference:

They were forgiven for crucifying Christ when Jesus prayed on the cross: Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

But they were not forgiven for not paying attention to Daniel 9:25 on Palm Sunday.

Palm Sunday.

The Bible says that God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge (Hos 4:6). Before God gave Israel the exact day of the arrival of Messiah the king, he told them: Make sure you know and understand this ! When the day came, Jesus said in very modern English: If only you had figured out this prophecy correct, it would have been ok with you. If at least on this day you would have had your act together, things would have been fine. But you blew it. And then he told them in modern English: You blew it, you are all history, because you failed to obtain the knowledge of the timing of my arrival. The prophecy of Daniel 9:25 precisely declared the day of the arrival of Messiah as King and that day came to be Palm Sunday. This is the only prophecy that indicated the precise day of his arrival as King.

In Daniel 9:25 it states that: from the going forth of the commandment to restore Jerusalem until the arrival of Messiah as King it will be 483 years. The commandment is documented in Nehemiah 2. That sets the clock to start counting on 14 March 445 B.C. Four hundred and eighty three years later (7+62) x 7 = 483 yrs = 173,880 days later = Palm Sunday. In John 6:15 the people wanted to make Jesus king but he hid from them because his hour has not yet come. That was the wrong day to start his political career. And Zec 9:9 stated that he had to arrive on a donkey. That is why Jesus made sure a donkey was going to be available that day. When he entered Jerusalem, the whole city cried out that he was king. When the religious leaders wanted that stopped, Jesus answered: If they stop, the stones will cry out. That is because God had prophesied in Zec 9:9 “Rejoice Jerusalem, your king comes to you ridding on a donkey.” It was not optional. They could not help themselves, it had to happen like that. But in spite that on this day everyone is welcoming him as king, he was not impressed with that (God looks at the heart), and he declared judgment over Jerusalem as it is written:

Luke 19:35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
36 And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.
37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; BECAUSE thou knewest not THE TIME of thy visitation.

Palm Sunday was the day to select the king of Israel. Israel should have pulled everyone arriving on a donkey that day to select themselves a king. But on that day, no one was aware of the prophecy. That is the reason why judgment was declared on them. It just so happens, Palm Sunday (the 10th day of the first month) was not only the day of selecting their king, it was also the day of selecting the Passover lamb (Exo 12:3). Jesus is our Passover Lamb and Jesus is our King. Having him as our king and as our Passover lamb gives us free pass to the promised-land in eternity. And what a coincidence !... that Israel crossed the Jordan river to enter the promised land… on Palm Sunday (See Joshua 4:19).

The very next thing that happens after Palm Sunday was Jesus cursing the fig tree. Israel is a type of fig tree (see Hos 9:10) and then the parable of giving the Lord's vineyard to others.

And they have already been pardoned by God for that (remember the fall of Jerusalem and the Holocaust)?

Is 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.

Shalom

Mark F
Jan 31st 2011, 02:13 AM
This I believe is what is misunderstood in alot of these topics, God can and does deal with Nations. This is not in a sense of salvation for them upon death. It it abundantly clear that God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham that has implications to the people on earth prior to their death. Individual salvation after death has always been on an individual level. Why is it that these two aspects cannot be considered seperately?

Daniel is a prime example, Daniel was saved by faith apart from the sinners of Israel, while alive he was a captive yet God used and blessed him for his faithfulness. Israel was under judgment but Daniel was not, yet he ended up taking part in Israel's punishment, this did not negate Daniel's salvation, just his physical circumstances.

In the same sense God has said that He would again bless Jacob..

Ezekiel 28:25
‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob.

This isn't a promise of salvation, it is a promise to give them the land which He gave them by covenant.

LookingUp asked in the OP:
"What does it mean to "grant repentance" to the nation Israel?"

Isn't repentance an about face, a change of heart, agreeing with God that you are wrong?


2 Chronicles 7:14
if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Isn't this a healing of the Nation? I don't see individual salvation in that passage, as a whole if the people will seek God, forsake their sinful ways God will restore the Nation.

God can and does work with nations, He promised to return and rule from Jerusalem, raise up David and heal Israel, at Jesus return there will be peoples and nations and He will deal with them nationally,

This passage in Hosea 5 is it not speaking of Israel as a Nation?

14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return to the LORD;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

Anyway before I ramble on too much, I believe that a distinction is obvious that God has plans to restore Israel to be the witness nation they were supposed to be, yet even in the millenium it seems that there will be those who reject Christ even though He will be physically reigning on earth-go figure. Nations aren't saved as a whole for eternity, only individuals, but that does not automatically exclude God from forgiving and working repentance on a National level either. All this is two different things.

LookingUp
Jan 31st 2011, 02:39 AM
This I believe is what is misunderstood in alot of these topics, God can and does deal with Nations. This is not in a sense of salvation for them upon death. It it abundantly clear that God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham that has implications to the people on earth prior to their death. Individual salvation after death has always been on an individual level. Why is it that these two aspects cannot be considered seperately?

Daniel is a prime example, Daniel was saved by faith apart from the sinners of Israel, while alive he was a captive yet God used and blessed him for his faithfulness. Israel was under judgment but Daniel was not, yet he ended up taking part in Israel's punishment, this did not negate Daniel's salvation, just his physical circumstances.

In the same sense God has said that He would again bless Jacob..


This isn't a promise of salvation, it is a promise to give them the land which He gave them by covenant.

LookingUp asked in the OP:

Isn't repentance an about face, a change of heart, agreeing with God that you are wrong?



Isn't this a healing of the Nation? I don't see individual salvation in that passage, as a whole if the people will seek God, forsake their sinful ways God will restore the Nation.

God can and does work with nations, He promised to return and rule from Jerusalem, raise up David and heal Israel, at Jesus return there will be peoples and nations and He will deal with them nationally,

This passage in Hosea 5 is it not speaking of Israel as a Nation?


Anyway before I ramble on too much, I believe that a distinction is obvious that God has plans to restore Israel to be the witness nation they were supposed to be, yet even in the millenium it seems that there will be those who reject Christ even though He will be physically reigning on earth-go figure. Nations aren't saved as a whole for eternity, only individuals, but that does not automatically exclude God from forgiving and working repentance on a National level either. All this is two different things.Thanks! This was helpful.

John146
Jan 31st 2011, 07:37 PM
How would you respond to post #16?If you give me your thoughts on what I said in post #14 then I'll tell you. :)

LookingUp
Feb 1st 2011, 01:59 AM
The same thing it means to grant repentance to the Gentiles.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God grants both Israelites and the Gentiles the opportunity for eternal life and the forgiveness of sins through faith in His Son Jesus Christ. The key to understanding the context of Acts 5:31 is that it's related to the forgiveness of sins which is an individual thing, not a national thing. It says "Israel" but it's speaking of the people of Israel, not the nation as a whole.Acts 11:17 tells us that the repentance in question specifically relates to eternal life. When a nation repents (like Nineveh), it doesn't necessarily mean that every single citizen of that nation has a contrite and humble heart of repentance. It is on a grand scale and most effectively driven by the leaders of that nation.

Luke writes that Zacharias prophesied about a time when Israel would be redeemed and experience salvation from her enemies (Luke 1:68). Luke also writes that the people were looking for “the redemption of Jerusalem” (Luke 2:38). Not that they were looking for individual people living in Jerusalem to obtain personal salvation unto eternal life but the redemption of Jerusalem. Luke writes that they thought Jesus was the one who was going to “redeem Israel” (Luke 24:21). Why would they think this? Well, for one thing, Zacharias prophesied it, didn’t he? Luke writes that Jesus would eventually “restore the kingdom to Israel" (Acts 1:6). All this points to some kind of national repentance, forgiveness, and restoration. I’m not saying that this is the same, exact thing as personal repentance, forgiveness, and restoration (“making one whole”). So, although there is personal repentance (Acts 11:17), Luke also speaks of a national repentance.


It's not the nation itself that needs forgiveness, it's individuals from that nation who need forgiveness for their sins, just like individual Gentiles do.“Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified” (Acts 2:36).

“Men of Israel, …you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, but put to death the Prince of life…I know that you acted in ignorance…therefore repent and return, so that your sins may e wiped away in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration…” (Acts 3)

Sounds like Peter blames the entire house of Israel. Sounds like Peter believed that national repentance would bring the Lord back to them. But national repentance did not take place. We see from the beginning of Acts until Acts 7 that the growth of the church was going pretty good until the murder of Stephen. I don't think you doubt that there will be a time of restoration. What makes you so sure that the first part of that restoration isn't restoring the kingdom to Israel?


I have no idea, but what God is looking for is for individuals to repent, not nations.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.I know God is looking for individuals to repent. But I think He was also looking to “restore the kingdom to Israel.” This was to be done as a result of the repentance of the majority of Jews (the house of Israel). Had the house of Israel repented, times of refreshing would have come (restoration) from the presence of the Lord. All those living in Israel would have benefited from the restoration that would have taken place due to the repentance of the majority (the house of Israel). That's what it sounds like to me.

LookingUp
Feb 1st 2011, 02:00 AM
If you give me your thoughts on what I said in post #14 then I'll tell you. :)Okay, your turn.

Fenris
Feb 1st 2011, 01:34 PM
Why does Israel need to be forgiven? Two words: Genetic evil. :rofl:


Yes I get that impression from talking to some people.

John146
Feb 1st 2011, 05:52 PM
Acts 11:17 tells us that the repentance in question specifically relates to eternal life.Yes, and why would Acts 5:31 be any different? Let's look at both together.

Acts 5:30-31 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The first passage speaks of God granting repentance and the forgiveness of sins to Israel. Then the other passage says "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.". So, it had already previously been mentioned that God granted repentance and the forgiveness of sins to Israel and now this says He also granted repentance unto life to the Gentiles. Are these passages not speaking of repentance in the same context? I believe they clearly are.


When a nation repents (like Nineveh), it doesn't necessarily mean that every single citizen of that nation has a contrite and humble heart of repentance. It is on a grand scale and most effectively driven by the leaders of that nation.

Luke writes that Zacharias prophesied about a time when Israel would be redeemed and experience salvation from her enemies (Luke 1:68). Luke also writes that the people were looking for “the redemption of Jerusalem” (Luke 2:38). Not that they were looking for individual people living in Jerusalem to obtain personal salvation unto eternal life but the redemption of Jerusalem. Luke writes that they thought Jesus was the one who was going to “redeem Israel” (Luke 24:21). Why would they think this? Well, for one thing, Zacharias prophesied it, didn’t he? Luke writes that Jesus would eventually “restore the kingdom to Israel" (Acts 1:6). All this points to some kind of national repentance, forgiveness, and restoration. I’m not saying that this is the same, exact thing as personal repentance, forgiveness, and restoration (“making one whole”). So, although there is personal repentance (Acts 11:17), Luke also speaks of a national repentance.What you don't seem to understand is that the way in which Jesus redeemed them was by sacrificing Himself for their sins so that they could have the permanent remission of sins and eternal life. Just because not everyone in the nation accepted Him doesn't mean that Jesus failed to redeem them. What more does He need to do than what He already did up to the point that He said "It is finished"?


“Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified” (Acts 2:36).

“Men of Israel, …you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, but put to death the Prince of life…I know that you acted in ignorance…therefore repent and return, so that your sins may e wiped away in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration…” (Acts 3)

Sounds like Peter blames the entire house of Israel. Sounds like Peter believed that national repentance would bring the Lord back to them. But national repentance did not take place.They didn't repent as a nation when they had the chance. So, what happened? The Roman armies came into Judea and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. They had their chance for national redemption in the sense that you're speaking of but they blew it.


We see from the beginning of Acts until Acts 7 that the growth of the church was going pretty good until the murder of Stephen. I don't think you doubt that there will be a time of restoration. What makes you so sure that the first part of that restoration isn't restoring the kingdom to Israel?Because the NT never talks about that. It always speaks about the importance of spreading the gospel throughout the world and that began long ago starting in Israel. God's focus isn't the nation of Israel, it's the church.


I know God is looking for individuals to repent. But I think He was also looking to “restore the kingdom to Israel.” This was to be done as a result of the repentance of the majority of Jews (the house of Israel). Had the house of Israel repented, times of refreshing would have come (restoration) from the presence of the Lord. All those living in Israel would have benefited from the restoration that would have taken place due to the repentance of the majority (the house of Israel). That's what it sounds like to me.But in that sense God was looking for them to repent corporately at that time, but they didn't. So, whatever blessings they could have had as a nation were lost because of that. That has nothing to do with modern day Israel.

John146
Feb 1st 2011, 05:57 PM
Those who think that a forgiveness is only granted to individuals and not to a nation seem to forget passages such as Daniel 9. In that chapter we read Daniel's confession and his petition in which he prays for himself and his people, because God had taken his people, as a people, into Babylon. Destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the surrounding areas because of their sins. And allowed the entire people, as a people, to suffer reproach from all the nations that surrounded her.

The Babylonian captivity was a national judgment against national sins. The punishment was universal punishment as everyone was either taken to Babylon or killed. God treated the entire nation the same, even though Israel had several righteous individuals among them including Daniel and his companions, whom God saved individually from the burning oven, and lion's dens, etc. The entire nation went into exile because the nation, as a nation -- not as individuals, were being held accountable for the sins of the nation. God poured out his anger and his wrath, not on individual people as individuals, but the nation as a nation, devastating entire cities and making the entire countryside desolate. And Daniel is not praying for himself only, but for his entire people group -- but not for their sake but for the sake of God's name as Daniel's main concern is God's "chesed", his covenant faithfulness.

When Gabriel gives the answer, he says, "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression . . ." -- "your people" and "the transgression". He says "your people" because the focus of the prayer concerns an entire people group, and so does the focus of the answer. He says, "the transgression" singular, because Daniel's people will commit a national sin, a singular transgression that will take place such that this transgression will become the riches of the world, as Paul says in Romans 11. It's a national transgression that God will redeem into salvation for both Jew and Gentile.LookingUp asked me what my response would be to post #16, which is this one, so here is my response. Yes, there was a sense in the past in which God punished nations because of its sins as a nation and not because everyone in the nation was guilty. But I don't know what you are talking about exactly in your last (third) paragraph. Can you expand on that?

BroRog
Feb 1st 2011, 07:18 PM
Why does Israel need to be forgiven? Two words: Genetic evil. :rofl:


Yes I get that impression from talking to some people.This breaks my heart. (holding head low)

Fenris
Feb 1st 2011, 07:22 PM
This breaks my heart.
Why? I don't hold you responsible for somebody else's comments.

BroRog
Feb 1st 2011, 07:40 PM
LookingUp asked me what my response would be to post #16, which is this one, so here is my response. Yes, there was a sense in the past in which God punished nations because of its sins as a nation and not because everyone in the nation was guilty. But I don't know what you are talking about exactly in your last (third) paragraph. Can you expand on that?Okay, I'll explain it in terms of Paul's argument in Romans 11.

I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be!
Did Israel as a nation stumble? Yes. Did God reject the nation of Israel? No. This question is different than the question in 11:1. This time Paul looks at the question from Israel's point of view. Has Israel fallen from being the people of God such that the promises that God made to Israel shall never come to pass? The answer is, no, Israel did not fall such that God will not keep his word to her.

But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Not transgressions plural, but a single transgression became salvation to the Gentiles, which as we know was the crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah. What Satan intended for bad or evil, God intended for good.

Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Paul is arguing from the lesser to the greater. If it was a good thing that Israel transgressed in this way, and by this transgression riches came to the Gentiles, how much greater a good, or greater a blessing it will be when God fulfills his promises to Israel. When God brings Israel back to the land, reinstitutes the law of Moses, sends prophets to her, causes her to flourish, pours out his spirit on her, writes his law on their hearts, and protects her from her enemies such that she will worship God in peace and without fear from her enemies, oh what a great day that will be!

But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Deuteronomy 32:19-21 They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; [Gentiles] I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation . . .

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
The prophets speak about the Exodus as Israel's birth experience. When Israel goes into exile, as she was until 1948, she was "dead". When the people of Israel return to the land to reestablish the nation again, this is her coming back from the dead.

Ezekiel 37:11-14 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, `Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them, `Thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it," declares the Lord.' "

rejoice44
Feb 1st 2011, 07:42 PM
Why does Israel need to be forgiven? Two words: Genetic evil. :rofl:


Yes I get that impression from talking to some people.

My sentiments completely. They are descendants of Adam, are they not?

Fenris
Feb 1st 2011, 07:56 PM
My sentiments completely. They are descendants of Adam, are they not?
So descendants of Adam are genetically evil?

rejoice44
Feb 1st 2011, 08:03 PM
So descendants of Adam are genetically evil?

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Do you know of something that changed this?

Fenris
Feb 1st 2011, 08:04 PM
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Do you know of something that changed this?So this verse applies to all man for all time? Funny, it doesn't say that.

LookingUp
Feb 1st 2011, 08:18 PM
So descendants of Adam are genetically evil?Look, guys, nobody is "genetically evil" but if you two want to debate that, feel free to do so in a thread of your own. Thanks for understanding.

rejoice44
Feb 1st 2011, 08:19 PM
So this verse applies to all man for all time? Funny, it doesn't say that.

Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Do you want me to start listing all the evil deeds of those recorded in the Old Testament, starting with the evil sons of Jacob?

It is not my fault the Bible is a Jewish book, and therefore records mainly the deeds of the Jews.

Fenris
Feb 1st 2011, 08:20 PM
Do you want me to start listing all the evil deeds of those recorded in the Old Testament, starting with the evil sons of Jacob?

No, I want you to show me where it says in the bible that man is genetically evil.

rejoice44
Feb 1st 2011, 08:23 PM
Look, guys, nobody is "genetically evil" but if you two want to debate that, feel free to do so in a thread of your own. Thanks for understanding.

Sorry I posted before I saw your request. But I do disagree with you, we are all genetically evil, God said so, and it is the reason Israel needs to be forgiven, as well as all of us. We are all in the same boat.

RollTide21
Feb 1st 2011, 08:33 PM
I've been teaching this for 10 years and I still can't get people to understand it. And I don't know why. I suspect that Americans simply have no concept of a national sin, or a national transgression, or God's idea that a people are being held culpable for the decisions of a nation's leaders. I don't understand why you don't see that Daniel is praying for his nation and his people as a nation and a people, rather than himself as an individual.

God made a covenant with his nation, and God kicked his nation out of the land according to that covenant. There is nothing about this that resembles individual culpablity. It was a national offense, and a national punishment.

I don't know why your mind went looking for Daniel's individual sins as if you might prove that God sent Daniel, himself, into exile as an individual for his own sins. Those who read Danile know that God favored Daniel and his friends. Daniel wasn't sent into exile because of his own sins, but simply because he was a citizen of a country God was punishing. The evidence is clear that God had nothing against Daniel personally. In fact, and this scares me at times, God mentions three people in the world who could deliver themselves because of their righteousness: Noah, Daniel, and Job. Try meditating on Ezekiel 14.Agreed. It's very clear, IMO.

LookingUp
Feb 1st 2011, 09:01 PM
Yes, and why would Acts 5:31 be any different? Let's look at both together.

Acts 5:30-31 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The first passage speaks of God granting repentance and the forgiveness of sins to Israel. Then the other passage says "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.". So, it had already previously been mentioned that God granted repentance and the forgiveness of sins to Israel and now this says He also granted repentance unto life to the Gentiles. Are these passages not speaking of repentance in the same context? I believe they clearly are.I understand that it is individuals who are granted repentance unto life, and that Acts 5:31 doesn’t necessarily exclude that type of repentance. But I don’t think it’s the focus.

You say further down that Israel did have a chance to repent as a nation and they didn’t take it. So, I’m not sure why you’re arguing with me that when Peter says that Jesus is the Savior who grants repentance to Israel that you can’t see that in that context Peter is talking about national repentance. We see Peter speaking to the Council blaming them, “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom YOU had put to death by hanging him on a cross. He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.” Sounds like Peter is saying to the Council (representing the house of Israel) that the Prince will grant repentance to them (the house of Israel) for their national sin. If the whole of the Council saw the error of what they had done many individuals within that Council would come to a place of individual repentance which leads to life.


What you don't seem to understand is that the way in which Jesus redeemed them was by sacrificing Himself for their sins so that they could have the permanent remission of sins and eternal life. Just because not everyone in the nation accepted Him doesn't mean that Jesus failed to redeem them. What more does He need to do than what He already did up to the point that He said "It is finished"?Jesus didn’t allow the lack of national repentance stop him from redeeming individuals. But there still remains the unfinished business of restoring the kingdom to Israel.


They didn't repent as a nation when they had the chance. So, what happened? The Roman armies came into Judea and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. They had their chance for national redemption in the sense that you're speaking of but they blew it.And so that’s it? No more chances for Israel? Why are they back in the land? Why are they an actual nation again? Luck? Coincidence? So, one of the biggest themes in the OT (that Israel will thrive in her land as a nation under the leadership of the King) will not take place because one generation of Israelites blew it? Is that how God dealt with the stubborn group of Israelites in the wilderness? Or did He offer the promises to another generation? What makes you think God gives up so easily?


Because the NT never talks about that. It always speaks about the importance of spreading the gospel throughout the world and that began long ago starting in Israel. God's focus isn't the nation of Israel, it's the church.

But in that sense God was looking for them to repent corporately at that time, but they didn't. So, whatever blessings they could have had as a nation were lost because of that. That has nothing to do with modern day Israel. But you’ve agreed that there was a time Jesus, Peter, and the Apostles focused on the house of Israel, trying to get the house of Israel to repent. You say they lost their chance, and you’re right—that generation lost their chance. But Romans 11 tells us that just because that stubborn generation blew it doesn’t mean God has given up on them or the promises He made to them as a nation.

John146
Feb 1st 2011, 09:19 PM
Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Paul is arguing from the lesser to the greater. If it was a good thing that Israel transgressed in this way, and by this transgression riches came to the Gentiles, how much greater a good, or greater a blessing it will be when God fulfills his promises to Israel. When God brings Israel back to the land, reinstitutes the law of Moses, sends prophets to her, causes her to flourish, pours out his spirit on her, writes his law on their hearts, and protects her from her enemies such that she will worship God in peace and without fear from her enemies, oh what a great day that will be!Whoa, whoa, whoa. How are you getting all of that from Romans 11? Needless to say, I completely disagree with all of this. But we've discussed Romans 11 at length before so we don't have to do it again here.

John146
Feb 1st 2011, 09:30 PM
I understand that it is individuals who are granted repentance unto life, and that Acts 5:31 doesn’t necessarily exclude that type of repentance. But I don’t think it’s the focus.

You say further down that Israel did have a chance to repent as a nation and they didn’t take it. So, I’m not sure why you’re arguing with me that when Peter says that Jesus is the Savior who grants repentance to Israel that you can’t see that in that context Peter is talking about national repentance.Because he was speaking of repentance in connection with Christ's crucifixion and the forgiveness of sins. That is an individual thing. Individuals are required to repent and put their faith in Christ in order to have their sins forgiven.


We see Peter speaking to the Council blaming them, “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom YOU had put to death by hanging him on a cross. He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.” Sounds like Peter is saying to the Council (representing the house of Israel) that the Prince will grant repentance to them (the house of Israel) for their national sin. If the whole of the Council saw the error of what they had done many individuals within that Council would come to a place of individual repentance which leads to life.I disagree for the reasons I've already stated.


Jesus didn’t allow the lack of national repentance stop him from redeeming individuals. But there still remains the unfinished business of restoring the kingdom to Israel.According to you. I disagree. Don't you think there would be a lot more in the NT about that if the kingdom was going to be restored to the nation of Israel in a literal, physical sense?


And so that’s it? No more chances for Israel?Is that what I said? No, it is not. What person in Israel does not have the opportunity to be saved? Isn't that what it's all about? Being saved and having the promise of eternal life? Why the focus on temporary land? I don't get it.


Why are they back in the land? Why are they an actual nation again? Luck? Coincidence?Can you show that it was a work of God for a certain purpose? Read about how it came to be and then try to show me where God's hand was in it. Think about when the Israelites returned in the past. Wasn't it after they had repented and turned back to God? Is that what happened in 1948?


So, one of the biggest themes in the OT (that Israel will thrive in her land as a nation under the leadership of the King) will not take place because one generation of Israelites blew it? Is that how God dealt with the stubborn group of Israelites in the wilderness? Or did He offer the promises to another generation? What makes you think God gives up so easily?I'm saying God's focus is on His people, which include Jew and Gentiles alike in the kingdom of His Son. His focus is not on the nation of Israel but rather the church! We are His people now. Those who belong to His Son, whether we're Jew or Gentile. We see that throughout the NT.


But you’ve agreed that there was a time Jesus, Peter, and the Apostles focused on the house of Israel, trying to get the house of Israel to repent. You say they lost their chance, and you’re right—that generation lost their chance. But Romans 11 tells us that just because that stubborn generation blew it doesn’t mean God has given up on them or the promises He made to them as a nation.What promises are you talking about? The ones God made to Abraham and his seed? If so, what does Galatians 3 say about those promises?

RollTide21
Feb 1st 2011, 09:48 PM
Can you show that it was a work of God for a certain purpose? Read about how it came to be and then try to show me where God's hand was in it. Think about when the Israelites returned in the past. Wasn't it after they had repented and turned back to God? Is that what happened in 1948?
I was under the impression that the establishment of the Nation of Israel in '48 marked the end of the captivity period prophesied back in Ezekiel (or maybe another book).

Raybob
Feb 1st 2011, 09:54 PM
No, I want you to show me where it says in the bible that man is genetically evil.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Rom 3:23)

Do you remember the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" Adam and Eve were commanded not to eat but they ate? Because of that, all decendants of Adam and Eve are spiritually dead without the spirit of God dwelling inside.

Fenris
Feb 1st 2011, 09:58 PM
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Rom 3:23)Hmm. OT please, I am Jewish.


Do you remember the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" Adam and Eve were commanded not to eat but they ate? Because of that, all decendants of Adam and Eve are spiritually dead without the spirit of God dwelling inside.You may believe this, but it isn't in my bible anywhere. That doesn't make it wrong of course, simply unproven.

LookingUp
Feb 1st 2011, 10:54 PM
Hmm. OT please, I am Jewish.

You may believe this, but it isn't in my bible anywhere. That doesn't make it wrong of course, simply unproven.I respectfully ask again if you will please take this topic of "genetic evil" to another thread. You are free to open your own thread and address this. Thank you for understanding.

Raybob, you may have missed this request:

Look, guys, nobody is "genetically evil" but if you two want to debate that, feel free to do so in a thread of your own. Thanks for understanding.

Raybob
Feb 1st 2011, 11:57 PM
Hmm. OT please, I am Jewish.
You had said, "I want you to show me where it says in the bible that man is genetically evil." You didn't say only the OT. I'm Jewish too, at least half. My grandfather studied to be a Rabi at Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. He stopped shortly before WWII. I consider myself a 'completed Jew' now that I realize Jesus was the promise of redemption to Israel.

Raybob

LookingUp
Feb 2nd 2011, 05:41 AM
Because he was speaking of repentance in connection with Christ's crucifixion and the forgiveness of sins. That is an individual thing. Individuals are required to repent and put their faith in Christ in order to have their sins forgiven.Yes, it’s an individual thing. I’m not disputing that. But why, oh why, did Jesus, Peter and the Apostles implore the house of Israel to repent based on his crucifixion and resurrection? Again, you agreed that there was some kind of national offer for them to repent. This offer—just like the offer of individual repentance—was founded on Christ, his death and his resurrection.


I disagree for the reasons I've already stated.

According to you. I disagree. Don't you think there would be a lot more in the NT about that if the kingdom was going to be restored to the nation of Israel in a literal, physical sense?I think one verse is enough to establish that.


Is that what I said? No, it is not. What person in Israel does not have the opportunity to be saved? Isn't that what it's all about? Being saved and having the promise of eternal life? Why the focus on temporary land? I don't get it.I’m not talking about personal salvation. Although that is simply fantastic news, it’s not all about you or me. It’s not all about individual salvation. Again, that is a huge and wonderful part of it. But God promised Israel that they would thrive in a particular land with a particular King leading them. That may not sound so important to you who has eternal life awaiting him, but it is a promise, nevertheless, from God Almighty who keeps His promises, even when those "silly, temporal" promises, in light of the promise awaiting you, look trivial and unimportant to you.


Can you show that it was a work of God for a certain purpose? Read about how it came to be and then try to show me where God's hand was in it. Think about when the Israelites returned in the past. Wasn't it after they had repented and turned back to God? Is that what happened in 1948?I don’t know. I don’t know the minds and hearts of millions of Jews. All I know is what I see, and what I see looks like a miracle to me.


I'm saying God's focus is on His people, which include Jew and Gentiles alike in the kingdom of His Son. His focus is not on the nation of Israel but rather the church! We are His people now. Those who belong to His Son, whether we're Jew or Gentile. We see that throughout the NT.Eric, I really believe that God can focus on more one thing at a time. God can offer individual salvation leading to eternal life and at the same time offer a national salvation leading to the fulfillment of promises made long ago.


What promises are you talking about? The ones God made to Abraham and his seed? If so, what does Galatians 3 say about those promises?What do these promises have to do with the granting of repentance to the house of Israel that you admit was extended to first century Israel as a plea for them to repent on a national level?

Eric, I see you are pretty confident of your view in this area of Israel being “a lost cause.” You and I see eye to eye on some of the most important issues relating to eternal life, so I don’t think this is a “deal breaker” between the two of us. I hope we can continue to maintain what I think is a valuable bond between brother and sister in Christ.

John146
Feb 3rd 2011, 07:50 PM
Eric, I really believe that God can focus on more one thing at a time. God can offer individual salvation leading to eternal life and at the same time offer a national salvation leading to the fulfillment of promises made long ago.Do you think it's possible that your understanding of those promises and the fulfillment of those promises might be flawed? It seems to me that the promises were made to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ, and extend to those who are Christ's as well.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


What do these promises have to do with the granting of repentance to the house of Israel that you admit was extended to first century Israel as a plea for them to repent on a national level?What now? I've maintained all along that I believe Acts 5:31 has to do with individual repentance so I'm not sure what you're talking about. What promises are you talking about exactly? Not the promises made to Abraham and his seed?


Eric, I see you are pretty confident of your view in this area of Israel being “a lost cause.” You and I see eye to eye on some of the most important issues relating to eternal life, so I don’t think this is a “deal breaker” between the two of us. I hope we can continue to maintain what I think is a valuable bond between brother and sister in Christ.Don't worry, it's not a "deal breaker". You know me by now that I express my views passionately at times. It's nothing personal.

LookingUp
Feb 4th 2011, 05:25 AM
Do you think it's possible that your understanding of those promises and the fulfillment of those promises might be flawed?Me, my understanding, flawed? Never! Absolutely not! Not possible!

:P


It seems to me that the promises were made to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ, and extend to those who are Christ's as well.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.So far so good.


What now? I've maintained all along that I believe Acts 5:31 has to do with individual repentance so I'm not sure what you're talking about. What promises are you talking about exactly? Not the promises made to Abraham and his seed?You wrote, “They had their chance for national redemption in the sense that you're speaking of but they blew it.” and “But in that sense God was looking for them to repent corporately at that time, but they didn't. So, whatever blessings they could have had as a nation were lost because of that.”

What blessings could they have had had they repented as a nation at that time but they lost? If you answer this, then you will answer your question to me of what promises/prophesies it is in the OT that God was offering to the nation of Israel.

In all this time, you haven’t dialogued with a pre-mill. believer to the point of discussing the unfulfilled prophecies related to the kingdom? As an amil. guy, what do you do with all the prophecies in the OT that pre-mill. folk attribute to the millennial kingdom? Just curious.


Don't worry, it's not a "deal breaker". You know me by now that I express my views passionately at times. It's nothing personal.Yeah, you are pretty passionate about a lot of topics (makes things more “fun”). I don’t think I’m that passionate about a lot of topics. Certainly not about this one. Amil., pre-mill (which relates to Israel’s redemption)…it’s all good. New Covenant now, New Covenant later…not that vital technically speaking. Although I know you cried, “Heresy, I say! Heresy!” But I think that was a bit rash. Neither I nor BroRog is saying that Christ’s work on the cross isn’t finished or sufficient for eternal life. My personal take is that we, the Body of Christ, partake in the BLOOD of the New Covenant that will be established with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. But, oh my, try pullin’ that Calvinist stuff on me, and I might get riled up. That’s gotta be one of the most destructive false doctrines I can think of.