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Phish
Feb 3rd 2011, 07:38 AM
I have been doing a lot of research lately regarding Matty 12:40

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

It all started with a Video that I saw around Christmas called the Bethlemhem Star. In short the video gives evidence that Jesus was Crucified on Friday and Rose on early Sunday morning. I don't so much want to discuss the video as much as I want to discuss what the Bible says. I always had a problem with a Friday Crucificion in light of Matt 12:40 because you can't get three days and three nights from Fri to Sun.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other than I know the Bible must be true. I have seen eveidence from both sides of the debate but want to see what some of you may have to say about it.

I did a search and didn't see anything so I apologize if this has been discussed before.

Phish
Feb 3rd 2011, 07:39 AM
Wow, I think the last time I posted here I had several thousands posts. O well

Raybob
Feb 3rd 2011, 09:03 AM
We know He had to be three days and three nights, as Jonah. We know He rose on the first day of the week. Logic tells us He was crucified on a Thurday.

Servant89
Feb 3rd 2011, 06:39 PM
We know He had to be three days and three nights, as Jonah. We know He rose on the first day of the week. Logic tells us He was crucified on a Thurday.

He died on thursday indeed, for let God be true and every man a liar. The problem comes from one verse in the book of John where it says that the day after was a High Sabbath, meaning a very serious holiday. Early Christians interpreted that as it was Saturday but it was not. The day after Passover is a very holy day called the feast of unleavened bread, which was a day of rest.

Shalom

David Taylor
Feb 3rd 2011, 06:53 PM
Scripture doesn't tell us Jesus was cruficied on Friday, unfortunately, that is a myth that has become accepted as if it were biblical fact.

Actually, Scripture tells us that Jesus was not crucified on Friday...it just doesn't tell us specifically if it were Thursday or Wednesday.

Scripture tells us there was an additional 'high sabbath' that week, and it did not fall on the 'regular weekly sabbath'; and it was this special high-sabbath that Jesus was taken down off of the cross from, so as not to violate.

Ive read arguements for either Thursday or Wednesday crucifixion, and either are more tendable than Friday, which isn't tendable at all because of the High Sabbath that week.

Phish
Feb 3rd 2011, 07:58 PM
There is an interesting scripture that tells us Jesus would be betrayed after two days, Matt 26:2

Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

Working Backward we can tell (maybe not 100%) but we can tell this was Sunday when Jesus said this. This would put the Feast on Wed and Jesus was Betrayed.

The question is, What was the last supper?

If this is true, it would would put the crucificion on Thursday, but did a sabbath actually start Thursday evening in which The Preists wanted to remove the bodies off the crosses before the sabbath started.

jeffweeder
Feb 3rd 2011, 09:00 PM
From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

How could he spend 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, if he was raised on the third day?

percho
Feb 3rd 2011, 09:34 PM
We know He had to be three days and three nights, as Jonah. We know He rose on the first day of the week. Logic tells us He was crucified on a Thurday.

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Let's say I have a seed and it is guaranteed to sprout from the ground in three days and three nights from the time it is put in the ground and is also stated on the package it will sprout after three days. So I put it in the ground a moment before 6pm on Thursday. When should I look for it to sprout from the ground? (time and day)

percho
Feb 3rd 2011, 09:37 PM
I edited my post.

We know when the women got there while still dark on Sunday morning he was gone from the tomb.

RabbiKnife
Feb 3rd 2011, 09:42 PM
RabbiKnife's Compendium on Debating Questions of Scripture

1. Posit Number the First: Does is matter?

Servant89
Feb 3rd 2011, 09:45 PM
Jesus had to die on Thursday for him to be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. If he died on Thursday, that would place Palm Sunday on the 10th of Nissan which is the perfect day to fulfill three other prophecies. If he died on Wednesday, that would put three other prophecies out of wack. If Wednesday was passover, then he resurrected on the 18th day, not the 17th day and Palm Sunday would have been the 11th instead of the 10th. And furthermore, you will have Jesus in the grave for more than 3 days and 3 nights if he died on Wednesday.

Noah's ark rested on mount Ararat on the 17th day of the 7th month (Gen 8:4), which was turned into the first month in Exo 12:2. We find rest on the fact that Jesus resurrected from the dead.

We reached the promised land when we select Jesus as our passover lamb of God that takes away our sins. That had to happen on the 10th day of the month (Exo 12:3).

Israel reached the promised land when they crossed the Jordan river, and that event was the 10th day of this month (Joshua 4:19).

We reached the promised land when we select Jesus as our King, and Jesus entered Jerusalem as the king on Palm Sunday. That was the day to select a king. Dan 9:25 stated that had to be the day for that to happen and that is why Jesus asked for a donkey to fulfill zec 9:9 and that is why Jesus declared judgment on Israel that day, for not knowing the TIME of their visitation. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

That is why Jesus had to die on Thursday, not wednesday.

The day after the passover is always a super holy day. Passover is the 14th, the feast of unleavened bread falls on the 15th.

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Jn 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away

God did that on purpose, because if they had left Jesus on the cross after sunset, the curse that fell on him would had returned to earth and we would have been still in our sins. It is written:

Deut 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God ) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Shalom

percho
Feb 3rd 2011, 09:54 PM
There is an interesting scripture that tells us Jesus would be betrayed after two days, Matt 26:2

Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

Working Backward we can tell (maybe not 100%) but we can tell this was Sunday when Jesus said this. This would put the Feast on Wed and Jesus was Betrayed.

The question is, What was the last supper?

If this is true, it would would put the crucificion on Thursday, but did a sabbath actually start Thursday evening in which The Preists wanted to remove the bodies off the crosses before the sabbath started.

The last supper was started at the end of the passover meal which would have began at the 6pm hour on Tuesday the beginning of the 14th of month betrayed I would guess around midnight between Tuesday and Wednesday on the 14th Christ died around 3pm Wednesday on 14th put in tomb just at end of 14th beginning the 15th a holy convocation day. After the 15th holy convocation day women bought spices and prepared them Friday 16th and rested the weekly sabbath day Saturday the 17th early on morning of 18th Sunday while still dark they set out for the tomb but found him gone when they got there.

Servant89
Feb 3rd 2011, 09:56 PM
The last supper was started at the end of the passover meal which would have began at the 6pm hour on Tuesday betrayed I would guess around midnight between Tuesday and Wednesday on the 14th Christ died around 3pm Wednesday on 14th put in tomb just at end of 14th beginning the 15th a holy convocation day. After the 15th holy convocation day women bought spices and prepared them Friday 16th and rested the weekly sabbath day Saturday the 17th early on morning of 18th Sunday while still dark they set out for the tomb but found him gone when they got there.

Four days, definetively more than 3 days and 3 nights. Lazarus body smelled bad on the 4th day

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Shalom

percho
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:04 PM
Four days, definetively more than 3 days and 3 nights. Lazarus body smelled bad on the 4th day

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Shalom

He saw no corruption. Did anyone see him come out of the tomb? NO. He was already risen when the women got there in the dark. How long had he been risen? See my post concerning the seed. I would guess he had been risen close to twelve hours when the women got to the tomb.

percho
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:13 PM
If Jesus says there 12 hours of daylight. How many do you think he would say is in the night? Now if he, Jesus said the only sign he would give that he is the Messiah is he would be in the heart of the earth 3 of these day periods and 3 of these night periods how far off do you think he would give himself and still be within this time frame?

Phish
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:27 PM
No it doesn't matter, But is fun to try and figure out, also in Proverbs I think there is a blessing to the student who seeks out.

Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures;


Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

Phish
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:31 PM
Yes I agree, If your going to say Three Days and Three nights it needs to be three days and three nights, Jesus dying on Wed would be a problem, thats four nights

little watchman
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:32 PM
Concerning the timing of the resurrection, consider Albert James Dager's chart on page 14: http://www.mediaspotlight.org/pdfs/FACTS%20&%20FALLACIES%20OF%20THE%20RESURRECTION.pdf

I was a little uncertain whether I should post this, since some of his conclusions I don't agree with (especially concerning the Sabbath) and others I'm just not sure of. Even so, the author takes pains to be thorough and independent in his research, so it's worth a look. Dager's research suggests that according to the Gregorian calendar, Christ was crucified on a Wednesday and rose on a Saturday.

percho
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:49 PM
Yes I agree, If your going to say Three Days and Three nights it needs to be three days and three nights, Jesus dying on Wed would be a problem, thats four nights

Why would that be four nights?

percho
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:01 PM
Concerning the timing of the resurrection, consider Albert James Dager's chart on page 14: http://www.mediaspotlight.org/pdfs/FACTS%20&%20FALLACIES%20OF%20THE%20RESURRECTION.pdf

I was a little uncertain whether I should post this, since some of his conclusions I don't agree with (especially concerning the Sabbath) and others I'm just not sure of. Even so, the author takes pains to be thorough and independent in his research, so it's worth a look. Dager's research suggests that according to the Gregorian calendar, Christ was crucified on a Wednesday and rose on a Saturday.

It is only for the protection of The Lord's Day that one would not agree with the story of the seed I posted. With what Jesus said about hours in the daylight time and what he said about the number of days and nights being in the heart of the earth and what we are told about the sabbath drawing neigh and when he was put in the earth the only word of God conculsion one could draw is he was raised from the dead at sunset. Really really close to 72 hours and no matter how phrased in any accounts it would meet after three days and three nights, on the third day, in three days and or after the third day.

It was to long for me to read it all.

little watchman
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:13 PM
It is only for the protection of The Lord's Day that one would not agree with the story of the seed I posted. ...It was to long for me to read it all.

It think you and Albert James Dager are in agreement, actually. But the Dager article is in disagreement with Servant89. I dunno, myself...

Phish
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:15 PM
Why would that be four nights?

Wed Night, Thurs Night, Friday Night, and Sat Night

Phish
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:25 PM
0, It would be spot on. This is assuming that we are indeed talking abouta literal 3 days and 3 nights.

I have seen other evidence to suggest that Jesus would say 3 days and 3 nights because this is the way you would say 3 days. In english we would just say three days, In Hewbrew or Greek for that matter they were more precise in their language.

God himself defined a day as a evening and a morning all throughout Genesis. There is also a chapter in Acts 10 the story od Cornelius in which we are specifically told that he sent messengers to fetch Peter 4 days ago, but when we do the math we would say in our Englisg way Three days ago.

I'm not leaning either way at this point, I only want to follow scripture. I can see the aurguements for both sides with strong evidence but both aurguements semm to have their weaknesses as well.

Beckrl
Feb 4th 2011, 02:14 AM
This site gives a nice graphic of how the days and nights line up to complete the three nights and three days.
http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Prophecy/3days3nights.html

percho
Feb 4th 2011, 03:03 AM
Wed Night, Thurs Night, Friday Night, and Sat Night

Why would you count Saturday night?

Phish
Feb 4th 2011, 03:06 AM
This site gives a nice graphic of how the days and nights line up to complete the three nights and three days.
http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Prophecy/3days3nights.html

Good read, I do see a problem with this however in light of Matt 28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him [away] while we slept.

If it was the end of the Sabbath meaning Saturday eveneing, why would the deciples need to come at night while they slept?

It seems like a stretch to say that the morning was actually the end of Saturday

Phish
Feb 4th 2011, 03:09 AM
Why would you count Saturday night?

I beleive he rose in the Morning on Sunday right before Sun rise

Mat 28:1 ¶ In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.


Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.


and then later in the passage

Mat 28:11 ¶ Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.


Mat 28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,


Mat 28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him [away] while we slept.

Also in John it says

Jhn 20:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=20&v=1&t=KJV#comm/19)¶Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

percho
Feb 4th 2011, 04:17 AM
I beleive he rose in the Morning on Sunday right before Sun rise

Mat 28:1 ¶ In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.


Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.


and then later in the passage

Mat 28:11 ¶ Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.


Mat 28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,


Mat 28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him [away] while we slept.

Also in John it says

Jhn 20:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=20&v=1&t=KJV#comm/19)¶Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

I understand they went out there on the first day of the week. Why did they go to the tomb on that day. I understand when they got there he was no longer in the tomb. Those on watch said nothing about seeing him come out of the tomb. I would love to have a good understanding of these two verses.

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I wonder if the watch saw any of this happen?

Phish
Feb 4th 2011, 04:32 AM
I understand they went out there on the first day of the week. Why did they go to the tomb on that day. I understand when they got there he was no longer in the tomb. Those on watch said nothing about seeing him come out of the tomb. I would love to have a good understanding of these two verses.

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I wonder if the watch saw any of this happen?

I would love to understand as well, I think I lean more towards a Wed/Thur Crucificion, but I'm not ready to commit to any arguement yet.

Servant89
Feb 4th 2011, 10:50 PM
The last supper was started at the end of the passover meal which would have began at the 6pm hour on Tuesday the beginning of the 14th of month betrayed I would guess around midnight between Tuesday and Wednesday on the 14th Christ died around 3pm Wednesday on 14th put in tomb just at end of 14th beginning the 15th a holy convocation day. After the 15th holy convocation day women bought spices and prepared them Friday 16th and rested the weekly sabbath day Saturday the 17th early on morning of 18th Sunday while still dark they set out for the tomb but found him gone when they got there.

And that violates the 10th day and the 17 day being out of place (see post 11). And that also makes his burial more than 3 days (part of Wednesday, the entire Thursday, Friday and Saturday and part of Sunday.) that means he resurrected on the fourth day.

Peace

Beckrl
Feb 5th 2011, 12:42 AM
Good read, I do see a problem with this however in light of Matt 28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him [away] while we slept.

If it was the end of the Sabbath meaning Saturday eveneing, why would the deciples need to come at night while they slept?

It seems like a stretch to say that the morning was actually the end of Saturday

Remember there is two Sabbath days with in that week. One High Sabbath and one weekly Sabbath. The weekly sabbath ran from Friday evening to Saturday evening. The roman soldiers the watch men came into the city after Jesus resurrection at the dawn of the first day of the week which is Sunday at sunrise 6am. It was that day that the counsel told the watch men to lie about what had happen and say that his followers has came by night and taken the body. Jesus arose just at the ending of the Sabbath saturday evening before 6pm. So the claim was that his follower came some where around Saturday from 6pm until Sunday 6am and taken the body.


If you notice the day begun at sunset 6pm while it dark until the next sunset 6pm per Genesis 1:5

Phish
Feb 5th 2011, 02:05 AM
Remember there is two Sabbath days with in that week. One High Sabbath and one weekly Sabbath. The weekly sabbath ran from Friday evening to Saturday evening. The roman soldiers the watch men came into the city after Jesus resurrection at the dawn of the first day of the week which is Sunday at sunrise 6am. It was that day that the counsel told the watch men to lie about what had happen and say that his followers has came by night and taken the body. Jesus arose just at the ending of the Sabbath saturday evening before 6pm. So the claim was that his follower came some where around Saturday from 6pm until Sunday 6am and taken the body.


If you notice the day begun at sunset 6pm while it dark until the next sunset 6pm per Genesis 1:5

Still in conflict with Jhn 20:19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

Now you have two evenings on the same day?

also

Mar 16:1 ¶ And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.


Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

and

Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.


Mar 16:10 [And] she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.


Mar 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.


Mar 16:12 ¶ After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.


Mar 16:13 And they went and told [it] unto the residue: neither believed they them.


Mar 16:14 ¶ Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

percho
Feb 5th 2011, 02:51 AM
Let's look at it starting from here.

Matt. 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Can we agree this is about 3pm on some day and he died very shortly after this?
Matt. 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Now after this Pilate had sent someone to brake the legs of those on the crosses so they would die and not be hanging on the cross when the holy day sabbath arrived at 6pm. When they got to Jesus he was dead already having died about 3pm but they put a spear into his side anyway. Then one of the centurion and Joesph went to Pilate to ask for the body and Pilate talking to the centurion determined Jesus was dead and told Joseph he could have the body then Joseph went back took the body down wrapped it and put it in a nearby tomb and this was said.
Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Now I want you to decide what time the body was laid in the heart of the earth, the tomb and the stone was rolled shut. What do you think could have been the latest this could have happened and what do you thing could have been the earliest? Now based upon these statements by Jesus himself:
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

What time of the day must Jesus be raised from the earth?

This does not have anything to do with Monday through Sunday. We know when the women arrived just before light on Sunday morning Jesus was not there.

Phish
Feb 5th 2011, 08:33 AM
Let's look at it starting from here.

Matt. 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Can we agree this is about 3pm on some day and he died very shortly after this?
Matt. 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Now after this Pilate had sent someone to brake the legs of those on the crosses so they would die and not be hanging on the cross when the holy day sabbath arrived at 6pm. When they got to Jesus he was dead already having died about 3pm but they put a spear into his side anyway. Then one of the centurion and Joesph went to Pilate to ask for the body and Pilate talking to the centurion determined Jesus was dead and told Joseph he could have the body then Joseph went back took the body down wrapped it and put it in a nearby tomb and this was said.
Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Now I want you to decide what time the body was laid in the heart of the earth, the tomb and the stone was rolled shut. What do you think could have been the latest this could have happened and what do you thing could have been the earliest? Now based upon these statements by Jesus himself:
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

What time of the day must Jesus be raised from the earth?

This does not have anything to do with Monday through Sunday. We know when the women arrived just before light on Sunday morning Jesus was not there.

This is a great point, one that can't lightly be dismissed. I also agree with your 17th of Nissan model as well. I am leaning more and more to a Wed Crucificion. I'm doing a study rightnow on the Passover and un-leaven bread to see if I can uncover any more clues.

Right now a scripture that is bothering me is Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

It seems that Jesus made this statement the day after his entry where he presented himself, (side note: This would have been the 10th of Nissan when the lambs where inspected for the passover) anyway this would be SUN, he rode in on Staurday so the next day being Sunday. I guess you could say that two days would be Tue, Passover Feast, this is when Jesus would be betrayed by Judas which set up the chain of events for a Wed Crucificion.

Thanks for all the insights everyone, this has been a great discusssion, very helpfull

Servant89
Feb 5th 2011, 02:32 PM
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

That verse too, points (like all other Scriptures identifying the time of the resurrection) to somewhere in the midst of the third day, not after three days.

Shalom

tango
Feb 5th 2011, 05:03 PM
RabbiKnife's Compendium on Debating Questions of Scripture

1. Posit Number the First: Does is matter?

Sometimes I think it does matter.

If Jesus said "three days and three nights" and was raised after two days and two nights (or some other combination) it would raise questions about the accuracy of the text, or the translation, or other aspects that might give our opponents cause to question any other part of what Jesus said.

Of course there's a big difference between a genuine inconsistency and a concern relating to human tradition (such as the whole Good Friday / Easter Sunday issue).

percho
Feb 5th 2011, 05:27 PM
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

That verse too, points (like all other Scriptures identifying the time of the resurrection) to somewhere in the midst of the third day, not after three days.

Shalom

Lets say a new day starts at using out time 6pm. Starting on Wednesday at 5:59:59PM to Saturday at 5:59:59PM Could that span of time be inclusive of, on the third day, in three days, after three days and also in, as Jonah was, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in?

Servant89
Feb 5th 2011, 07:53 PM
Lets say a new day starts at using out time 6pm. Starting on Wednesday at 5:59:59PM to Saturday at 5:59:59PM Could that span of time be inclusive of, on the third day, in three days, after three days and also in, as Jonah was, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in?

If we are going to use God's way or measuring days, like starting at 6 pm, and we have to do that, then that means that (assuming your scenario is the right one) Jesus was burried part of Wednesday, the entire Thursday, Friday and part of Saturday. That is 4 days. In the Bible nowhere do we see God measuring days like we do today in the USA, starting counting from one minute somewhere in the middle of the day, until we have 24 hours ending somewhere in the middle of the next day. That does not exist in the Bible. No one measures days like that in the Bible.

You actually believe Jesus resurrected on the day of REST? On Sabbath day?

Again, if Jesus resurrected on Saturday, why is the Church celebrating the first day of the week in the NT?

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

And why would God ordained (that year after year), Israel had to celebrate the feast of Firstfruits the morning after the sabbath following passover? Why did God command that the offering of the firstfruits be offered on Sunday Morning, year after year? Answer: Because it represented the firstfruit of the resurrection, Jesus Christ who resurrected on Sunday morning.

Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Do you actually think that it was really PALM SATURDAY? Because if you are right, the 10th of the month fell on Saturday. That can not be because all Israelites are forbiden to enter or leave a city on Sabbath day and Jesus did that on Palm Sunday.

God rested on the entire Sabbath day and resurrected on the morning of the first day. Violating the rest day for only one second, is that what you are suggesting that happened?

Question: Why do some people have so much faith on stuff that is not in the Bible? Why? Because nowhere in the Bible do we see a time of 5:59:59.

Shalom

percho
Feb 5th 2011, 10:14 PM
If we are going to use God's way or measuring days, like starting at 6 pm, and we have to do that, then that means that (assuming your scenario is the right one) Jesus was burried part of Wednesday, the entire Thursday, Friday and part of Saturday. That is 4 days. In the Bible nowhere do we see God measuring days like we do today in the USA, starting counting from one minute somewhere in the middle of the day, until we have 24 hours ending somewhere in the middle of the next day. That does not exist in the Bible. No one measures days like that in the Bible.

You actually believe Jesus resurrected on the day of REST? On Sabbath day?

Again, if Jesus resurrected on Saturday, why is the Church celebrating the first day of the week in the NT?

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

And why would God ordained (that year after year), Israel had to celebrate the feast of Firstfruits the morning after the sabbath following passover? Why did God command that the offering of the firstfruits be offered on Sunday Morning, year after year? Answer: Because it represented the firstfruit of the resurrection, Jesus Christ who resurrected on Sunday morning.

Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Do you actually think that it was really PALM SATURDAY? Because if you are right, the 10th of the month fell on Saturday. That can not be because all Israelites are forbiden to enter or leave a city on Sabbath day and Jesus did that on Palm Sunday.

God rested on the entire Sabbath day and resurrected on the morning of the first day. Violating the rest day for only one second, is that what you are suggesting that happened?

Question: Why do some people have so much faith on stuff that is not in the Bible? Why? Because nowhere in the Bible do we see a time of 5:59:59.

Shalom

UNCLE.

Well almost. One more try. Do you think the creator that said this? Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? Would have used any less than the total for a statement like this? so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Beckrl
Feb 5th 2011, 10:52 PM
Still in conflict with Jhn 20:19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

Now you have two evenings on the same day?

also

Mar 16:1 ¶ And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.


Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

and

Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.


Mar 16:10 [And] she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.


Mar 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.


Mar 16:12 ¶ After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.


Mar 16:13 And they went and told [it] unto the residue: neither believed they them.


Mar 16:14 ¶ Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic. Jesus rose before Sunday the first day of the week although that day begun for the Jewish nation on Saturday @ 6pm. Their day starts with the night unto the day light. What it saying it that Jesus arose just before the 6pm which begun the next day Sunday fulfilling the three days and three night from wednesday after the 9th hour (3pm) of the Jewish watch which would be soon the beginning of the first day that he was in the tomb, howbeit it starts the counting of the three nights first and then the days, but it wasn't until the sunrise 'dawn' of that day [Sunday] that the women came to the tomb which the Sabbath had ended. Jesus then appears to his disciples on that same day [Sunday] at evening time.

Phish
Feb 5th 2011, 11:16 PM
I'm not sure I'm following your logic. Jesus rose before Sunday the first day of the week although that day begun for the Jewish nation on Saturday @ 6pm. Their day starts with the night unto the day light. What it saying it that Jesus arose just before the 6pm which begun the next day Sunday fulfilling the three days and three night from wednesday after the 9th hour (3pm) of the Jewish watch which would be soon the beginning of the first day that he was in the tomb, howbeit it starts the counting of the three nights first and then the days, but it wasn't until the sunrise 'dawn' of that day [Sunday] that the women came to the tomb which the Sabbath had ended. Jesus then appears to his disciples on that same day [Sunday] at evening time.

You have to read the entire passage in Jon 20 I guess to see. In the chain of events there is alot that transpires on the first day. Your saying that Jesus rose on the evening which would have started the first day (sat/sun around 6), however when you read john you realize that an entire day transpired then it say the evening of the first day he sees the deciples for the first time. Seems weird there are two evenings on the first day.

also the passage in Mark 16 sets up the First day with the events that transpired. He appeared to Mary in the morning and the deciples in the evening (on the first day)

Just a note: The reality is you are probably right, I'm just still not comfortable with it yet. I am leaning towards a Wed Crucificion, I just want to answer all the little nagging things.

Servant89
Feb 5th 2011, 11:41 PM
UNCLE.

Well almost. One more try. Do you think the creator that said this? Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? Would have used any less than the total for a statement like this? so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Rhetoric works for some. Not on me. Jesus did not enter Jerusalem on a Sabbath day (it is forbidden to enter a city on Sabbath days), neither did he worked out his own resurrection on the day of rest (even for one second). And that does not make the offering of the firstfruits on Sabbath days either.

It is a free country. Go right ahead, believe what you want.

Peace

Beckrl
Feb 6th 2011, 12:05 AM
Lets say a new day starts at using out time 6pm. Starting on Wednesday at 5:59:59PM to Saturday at 5:59:59PM Could that span of time be inclusive of, on the third day, in three days, after three days and also in, as Jonah was, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in?

exactamundo.........'to short'........

Beckrl
Feb 6th 2011, 12:19 AM
You have to read the entire passage in Jon 20 I guess to see. In the chain of events there is alot that transpires on the first day. Your saying that Jesus rose on the evening which would have started the first day (sat/sun around 6),

I'm sorry if I've lead you to think that there are two evening on the first day. The evening in which Jesus rose was the Saturday the ending of that seventh day. The first day begun at 6:00pm Saturday while it was still dark [this isn't called the evening after 6pm for it is the new day] and when the women came to the tomb it was at sunrise 6am on the first day [sunday] then at the evening of this day the Lord appeared to his disciples.

percho
Feb 6th 2011, 01:30 AM
Rhetoric works for some. Not on me. Jesus did not enter Jerusalem on a Sabbath day (it is forbidden to enter a city on Sabbath days), neither did he worked out his own resurrection on the day of rest (even for one second). And that does not make the offering of the firstfruits on Sabbath days either.

It is a free country. Go right ahead, believe what you want.

Peace

Isn.t it wonderful we live in the good old USA? Peace to you also brother. The first half of eternity all we will do is ask question about what we thought we already knew. Maybe the second half will be a lot longer than the first half.

Servant89
Feb 6th 2011, 03:24 AM
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Yeah, he resurreced Sunday morning that he might have the preeminence in everything, even on the agenda for the week. That we would not serve our bosses until we serve Jesus Christ first.

Peace

percho
Feb 6th 2011, 04:33 AM
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Yeah, he resurreced Sunday morning that he might have the preeminence in everything, even on the agenda for the week. That we would not serve our bosses until we serve Jesus Christ first.

Peace

The beginning of what?

Phish
Feb 6th 2011, 09:16 PM
It took me a while but I went through to try nad trace out the week.

Using the 14thof Nisan in which Jesus would be sacrificed as the passover lamb, the day he rode into Jerusalem would have to be the 10th of Nisan, which of course is a sabbath day (sorry Servant)

Here is the course of events

The 10th of Nisan
From Matt 21:1 to Verse 11 Jesus rides into Jerusalem. Then:

21:12 ¶ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

He is in the temple until:

Mat 21:17 And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there.

Now we come to the 11th of Nisan

Mat 21:18 ¶ Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.

here we have the fig tree incident as he is on his way to the temple

Mat 21:23 ¶ And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

If you read all the way through the rest of Matt 21, Matt 22 and Matt 23 You'll discover that all the parables are done inside the temple, Its not until Matt 24 that he leaves the temple

Mat 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Thus begins the Olivet Discourse which will go through Matt 24 and 25. Now we come to Matt 26

Mat 26:1 ¶ And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,


Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

So if it is the 11th of Nissan and we add 2 days this makes it the 13th of Nisan in which Judas Betrayed Jesus setting up the 14th of Nisan as the crucifiction day.

Jesus is crucified and spends three days in the grave, the 17th of Nisan would be the 1st day of the week of Sun.

Servant89
Feb 6th 2011, 11:27 PM
The beginning of what?

The beginning of everything good, but that is my opinion. Doctrine should not be based on man's opinion.

Peace

Servant89
Feb 6th 2011, 11:38 PM
It took me a while but I went through to try nad trace out the week.

Using the 14thof Nisan in which Jesus would be sacrificed as the passover lamb, the day he rode into Jerusalem would have to be the 10th of Nisan, which of course is a sabbath day (sorry Servant)

Here is the course of events

The 10th of Nisan
From Matt 21:1 to Verse 11 Jesus rides into Jerusalem. Then:

21:12 ¶ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

He is in the temple until:

Mat 21:17 And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there.

Now we come to the 11th of Nisan

Mat 21:18 ¶ Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.

here we have the fig tree incident as he is on his way to the temple

Mat 21:23 ¶ And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

If you read all the way through the rest of Matt 21, Matt 22 and Matt 23 You'll discover that all the parables are done inside the temple, Its not until Matt 24 that he leaves the temple

Mat 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Thus begins the Olivet Discourse which will go through Matt 24 and 25. Now we come to Matt 26

Mat 26:1 ¶ And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,


Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

So if it is the 11th of Nissan and we add 2 days this makes it the 13th of Nisan in which Judas Betrayed Jesus setting up the 14th of Nisan as the crucifiction day.

Jesus is crucified and spends three days in the grave, the 17th of Nisan would be the 1st day of the week of Sun.

Do not be sorry for me. I have no EGO. Winning is not on my radar screen. Finding out what is the truth, that is what is important here. At first I felt good that I was wrong (concerning Palm Sunday) because you ended with Jesus resurrecting Jesus on Sunday. But nope. Look at this (Sunday is not the 17 according to your scenario):

Saturday 10th
Sunday 11th
Monday 12th
Tuesday 13th
Wednesday 14th
Thursday 15th
Friday 16th
Saturday 17th
Sunday 18th

The Law forbids to leave the city on a Sabbath day (Exo 16:29; Num 35:5 and Acts 1:12). The Jews were not allowed to travel away from their cities, or enter a city on Sabbath days, and the cities were defined as 3,000 feet (=2,000 cubits) away from the city wall. The distance between the walls of the city Jerusalem and mount Olivet in Acts 1:12 is 2,000 cubits or 3,000 feet.

EXO 16:29 See, for that the LORD has given you the Sabbath, therefore he gives you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

NUM 35:5 And ye shall measure from without the city on the east side two thousand cubits, and on the south side two thousand cubits, and on the west side two thousand cubits, and on the north side two thousand cubits; and the city shall be in the midst: this shall be to them the suburbs of the cities.

ACT 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day's journey.

You have Jesus entering Jerusalem and leaving Jerusalem on a Sabbath day. It is not Palm Saturday. It is Palm Sunday.

Shalom

Servant89
Feb 7th 2011, 12:07 AM
On sabbath days, people were fobidden to put a burden on a donkey. Everyone was supposed to rest on that day, including animals. And travelling was not allowed.

Neh 13:15 In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals.

Jesus definetively did not enter Jerusalem on Sabbath day. This is what the Bible says that happened.

Sunday 10th (a day of entering a city, travel is allowed). A new beginning. The day to select the passover lamb, the day to select the king (Dan 9:25/John 6:15), the day of entering promised land Jos 4:19)
Monday 11th (cursed fig tree, a type of Israel-Hos 9:10, after declaring judgement on Isreal on Palm Sunday, the day before)
Tuesday 12th
Wednesday 13th
Thursday 14th Crucified at 9 am, sun gets dark at noon as prophecied in Amos 8:9And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day, dies at 3 pm, burried before sunset to prevent the curse to fall on us as declared in Deu 21:23 .
Friday 15th (A high sabbath, John 19:31/Lev 23:10-12, a super holy holiday, a day of rest after passover. This day signified what the blood of Jesus did for this world, removed sin)
Saturday 16th (a day of rest, Jesus rested this day in the grave, the next day, he went back to work)
Sunday 17th (the reason why we love him, Noah's ark rested on this day, Gen 8:4/Exo 12:2)

Shalom

Phish
Feb 8th 2011, 11:31 PM
Do not be sorry for me. I have no EGO. Winning is not on my radar screen. Finding out what is the truth, that is what is important here. At first I felt good that I was wrong (concerning Palm Sunday) because you ended with Jesus resurrecting Jesus on Sunday. But nope. Look at this (Sunday is not the 17 according to your scenario):

Saturday 10th
Sunday 11th
Monday 12th
Tuesday 13th
Wednesday 14th
Thursday 15th
Friday 16th
Saturday 17th
Sunday 18th

The Law forbids to leave the city on a Sabbath day (Exo 16:29; Num 35:5 and Acts 1:12). The Jews were not allowed to travel away from their cities, or enter a city on Sabbath days, and the cities were defined as 3,000 feet (=2,000 cubits) away from the city wall. The distance between the walls of the city Jerusalem and mount Olivet in Acts 1:12 is 2,000 cubits or 3,000 feet.

EXO 16:29 See, for that the LORD has given you the Sabbath, therefore he gives you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

NUM 35:5 And ye shall measure from without the city on the east side two thousand cubits, and on the south side two thousand cubits, and on the west side two thousand cubits, and on the north side two thousand cubits; and the city shall be in the midst: this shall be to them the suburbs of the cities.

ACT 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day's journey.

You have Jesus entering Jerusalem and leaving Jerusalem on a Sabbath day. It is not Palm Saturday. It is Palm Sunday.

Shalom

Sorry, I have had a really bad case of the flu.

Your are right, I miscalculated that, the 10th should be on Sunday.

percho
Feb 9th 2011, 05:48 AM
If Jesus died on the 14th of Nissan 3pm and that was on Thursday what day of our week would 8th of Nissan have been on concerning this scripture? John 12:1,2 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. There they made him a supper;

BTW I believe the 14th was on Wednesday.

Servant89
Feb 9th 2011, 10:54 PM
If Jesus died on the 14th of Nissan 3pm and that was on Thursday what day of our week would 8th of Nissan have been on concerning this scripture? John 12:1,2 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. There they made him a supper;

BTW I believe the 14th was on Wednesday.

Jesus came to Bethany on Friday. It is not allowed to travel on Sabbath day.

Friday 8th
Sabbath 9th
Sunday 10th
Monday 11th
Tuesday 12th
Wednesday 13th

Those are the 6 days before passover

Thursday 14th
Friday 15th
Sabbath 16th
Sunday 17th

So, you actually believe Jesus travelled on Sabbath day entering Jerusalem ridding on a donkey (putting a burden on an animal) ??

You actually believe Jesus resurrected on Saturday? Are you a SDA?

Shalom

Servant89
Feb 9th 2011, 10:55 PM
Sorry, I have had a really bad case of the flu.

Your are right, I miscalculated that, the 10th should be on Sunday.

Welcome to my WORLD !!!! (of miscalculating)

Shalom

percho
Feb 10th 2011, 12:02 AM
Jesus came to Bethany on Friday. It is not allowed to travel on Sabbath day.

Friday 8th
Sabbath 9th
Sunday 10th
Monday 11th
Tuesday 12th
Wednesday 13th

Those are the 6 days before passover

Thursday 14th
Friday 15th
Sabbath 16th
Sunday 17th

So, you actually believe Jesus travelled on Sabbath day entering Jerusalem ridding on a donkey (putting a burden on an animal) ??

You actually believe Jesus resurrected on Saturday? Are you a SDA?

Shalom

No I am not SDA

If he died on Thursday 14th Nissan I agree with you he would have arrived in Bethany sometime on Friday the 8th of Nissan. When we get to verse 12 in John 12
is this the next day from his arrival or the next day from something else?

If Nissan 14 was on Wednesday he would have arrived in Bethany on Thursday the 8th of Nissan six days before passover.

Phish
Feb 10th 2011, 01:04 AM
Jesus came to Bethany on Friday. It is not allowed to travel on Sabbath day.

Friday 8th
Sabbath 9th
Sunday 10th
Monday 11th
Tuesday 12th
Wednesday 13th

Those are the 6 days before passover

Thursday 14th
Friday 15th
Sabbath 16th
Sunday 17th

So, you actually believe Jesus travelled on Sabbath day entering Jerusalem ridding on a donkey (putting a burden on an animal) ??

You actually believe Jesus resurrected on Saturday? Are you a SDA?

Shalom

I was going to wait until i had a little more research done and I could put up the entire week, but I made a discovery that may throw off this timeline.

In reference to John 12:1 where Jesus arrives at Bethany I calculated this to be on the 9th of Nisan and not the 8th like we would assume. Heres why

John 12:12 states that the next day he rides into Jerusalem which we know to be the 10th of Nisan

This creates a problem because you couldn't have a sabbath between the days( the day Jesus arrived and what we know as Palm Sunday). It seems Jesus must have traveled to Bethany on the 9th of Nisan and arrived that afternoon (it appears he came from Ephriam John 11:54), Later that evening which would have been the 10th of Nisan Jesus would be annointed (John 12:3) then, the next day/morning rode into Jerusalem (same day, 10th of Nisan) to present himself as the Lamb as required.

This would also seem to indicate that the 9th of Nisan would have to be at least a Sunday and not a Sabbath thus makeing a Wed 14th of Nisan seem impossible. This brings us back to Square 1 because this places the 14th of Nisan on Friday like tradition supposses, but begs the question of how you can have 3 days and 3 nights in the grave.

I started to look at external evidence such as dates of major earthquakes, blood moons (it seems there was one on Friday April 3rd, 33 AD, the 14th of Nisan, the Blood moon peaked at 3:pm in the afternoon)

When you count ahead 6 days to the 14th of Nisan, you also need to count part of the 9th of Nisan will give you 6 days, this helps with John 12:1

Servant89
Feb 10th 2011, 01:27 AM
No I am not SDA

If he died on Thursday 14th Nissan I agree with you he would have arrived in Bethany sometime on Friday the 8th of Nissan. When we get to verse 12 in John 12
is this the next day from his arrival or the next day from something else?

If Nissan 14 was on Wednesday he would have arrived in Bethany on Thursday the 8th of Nissan six days before passover.

On verse 12, it says the next day and it describes Palm Sunday. It must be Sunday because it was a day of travel and putting burdens on a donkey.

Shalom

RollTide21
Feb 10th 2011, 04:35 PM
That storm trooper pic is priceless. One of my favorite "motivational" pics.

Phish
Feb 10th 2011, 06:04 PM
That storm trooper pic is priceless. One of my favorite "motivational" pics.

Thanks, My wife has a bunch of them on old post cards, gotta figure out how to get them on my computer to use.

Beckrl
Feb 10th 2011, 10:39 PM
I was going to wait until i had a little more research done and I could put up the entire week, but I made a discovery that may throw off this timeline.

In reference to John 12:1 where Jesus arrives at Bethany I calculated this to be on the 9th of Nisan and not the 8th like we would assume. Heres why

John 12:12 states that the next day he rides into Jerusalem which we know to be the 10th of Nisan

This creates a problem because you couldn't have a sabbath between the days( the day Jesus arrived and what we know as Palm Sunday). It seems Jesus must have traveled to Bethany on the 9th of Nisan and arrived that afternoon (it appears he came from Ephriam John 11:54), Later that evening which would have been the 10th of Nisan Jesus would be annointed (John 12:3) then, the next day/morning rode into Jerusalem (same day, 10th of Nisan) to present himself as the Lamb as required.

This would also seem to indicate that the 9th of Nisan would have to be at least a Sunday and not a Sabbath thus makeing a Wed 14th of Nisan seem impossible. This brings us back to Square 1 because this places the 14th of Nisan on Friday like tradition supposses, but begs the question of how you can have 3 days and 3 nights in the grave.

I started to look at external evidence such as dates of major earthquakes, blood moons (it seems there was one on Friday April 3rd, 33 AD, the 14th of Nisan, the Blood moon peaked at 3:pm in the afternoon)

When you count ahead 6 days to the 14th of Nisan, you also need to count part of the 9th of Nisan will give you 6 days, this helps with John 12:1

You maybe interested in a calendar of the new moon the Jewish way of counting days and months and place the 3rd of Apirl, 30AD into the calendar and see when that day of the week the 14th Nisan fell on.

http://www.rosettacalendar.com/

Phish
Feb 10th 2011, 10:59 PM
You maybe interested in a calendar of the new moon the Jewish way of counting days and months and place the 3rd of Apirl, 30AD into the calendar and see when that day of the week the 14th Nisan fell on.

http://www.rosettacalendar.com/

Thats cool,

Are you still sticking with the 14th being on Wed?

Servant89
Feb 10th 2011, 11:36 PM
Thats cool,

Are you still sticking with the 14th being on Wed?

Not me, I trust the WORD OF GOD more than the calculations of men.

Shalom

Beckrl
Feb 10th 2011, 11:50 PM
Thats cool,

Are you still sticking with the 14th being on Wed?
Yes, I do believe that Jesus as the Lamb of God was place on the cross on the 14th Nisan (3rd of Apirl) and arose on the 17th Nisan (7th of Apirl) of the year 30AD. Notice the 14th begun on Tuesday the 13th @ 6pm and ran until the 14th @ 6pm. On the 14th at Twilight the passover lamb was to be killed. (Exodus 12:3,6)


http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr283/beckrl/3days3nightsgraphic3.jpg
Source of picture (http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Prophecy/3days3nights.html) with my added highlights.

Servant89
Feb 10th 2011, 11:56 PM
Yes, I do believe that Jesus as the Lamb of God was place on the cross on the 14th Nisan (3rd of Apirl) and arose on the 17th Nisan (7th of Apirl) of the year 30AD. Notice the 14th begun on Tuesday the 13th @ 6pm and ran until the 14th @ 6pm. On the 14th at Twilight the passover lamb was to be killed. (Exodus 12:3,6)


http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr283/beckrl/3days3nightsgraphic3.jpg
Source of picture (http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Prophecy/3days3nights.html) with my added highlights.

So, you believe Jesus entered Jerusalem on a Sabbath day, putting his weight on a donkey on a Sabbath day...? Contrary to Scripture....?

So, you believe Jesus resurrected on a day of rest?

Tell me, why did God ordain in his law to offer the firstfruits on Sunday morning?

Why did God order Israel to celebrate Pentecost on Sunday morning?

Why do we see Paul telling us twice about the first day of the week in the NT?

Thank you !

Shalom

Phish
Feb 11th 2011, 12:24 AM
Yes, I do believe that Jesus as the Lamb of God was place on the cross on the 14th Nisan (3rd of Apirl) and arose on the 17th Nisan (7th of Apirl) of the year 30AD. Notice the 14th begun on Tuesday the 13th @ 6pm and ran until the 14th @ 6pm. On the 14th at Twilight the passover lamb was to be killed. (Exodus 12:3,6)


http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr283/beckrl/3days3nightsgraphic3.jpg
Source of picture (http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Prophecy/3days3nights.html) with my added highlights.

I really wanted to go this route but in light of John 12:1 and 12:12 I can't figure out how to make this model work. I'm back to the traditional Friday Crucifiction.

Servant89
Feb 11th 2011, 01:55 AM
I really wanted to go this route but in light of John 12:1 and 12:12 I can't figure out how to make this model work. I'm back to the traditional Friday Crucifiction.

How can you fit 3 days and 3 nights within 38 hours? Two days is 48 hours?

Shalom

Phish
Feb 11th 2011, 02:39 AM
How can you fit 3 days and 3 nights within 38 hours? Two days is 48 hours?

Shalom

Hey, I didn't say I was happy with it. To be honest I don't know.

I'm playing with the idea that 3 days and 3 nights is just a Jewish way to say what we would say in English 3 days.


What I do know is the model for a Wed Crucifition doesn't work in light of what scripture does tell us. You said yourself Jesus wouldn't have traveled on a Sabbtah Day so the Thurs Crucificion model doesn't work either, Unless Jesus did travel on the Sabbath.

John 12:1 tells us Jesus arrived in Bethany 6 days before passover, John 12:3 tells us he was annoited that evening, and the next day he presented himself John 12:12. If Palm Sunday is really Palm Sunday, this means Jesus traveled to Bethany on Saturday.

How can both scriptures be right 1. Jesus was in the Grave 3 days and 3 Nights, 2. Jesus traveled on Saturday to get to Bethany.

percho
Feb 11th 2011, 04:01 AM
Hey, I didn't say I was happy with it. To be honest I don't know.

I'm playing with the idea that 3 days and 3 nights is just a Jewish way to say what we would say in English 3 days.


What I do know is the model for a Wed Crucifition doesn't work in light of what scripture does tell us. You said yourself Jesus wouldn't have traveled on a Sabbtah Day so the Thurs Crucificion model doesn't work either, Unless Jesus did travel on the Sabbath.

John 12:1 tells us Jesus arrived in Bethany 6 days before passover, John 12:3 tells us he was annoited that evening, and the next day he presented himself John 12:12. If Palm Sunday is really Palm Sunday, this means Jesus traveled to Bethany on Saturday.

How can both scriptures be right 1. Jesus was in the Grave 3 days and 3 Nights, 2. Jesus traveled on Saturday to get to Bethany.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OR

Luke 19 and John 12:1 Six days before passover Jesus and his disciples journeyed from Jericho toward Jerusalem stopping at Bethany at the house of Lazarus, Mary and Martha ate supper. The next day(Day 1) was the triumphal entry into Jerusalem John 12:12 where at the temple he also cast out those that bought and sold and the moneychangers and said they were making his house of prayer a den of thieves. Returned to Bethany that night Matt. 21:17, Mark 11:11. The next morning (Day 2) he was hungry Matt. 21:18 Mark 11:12 returning to Jerusalem saw a fig tree and cursed it for not having fruit and it began to wither and Mark goes on to say he went back to the temple the buyers and sellers and moneychangers were back and he cast them out again and told them his house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer but they had made it a den of thieves. The scribes and priests heard him say this and sought how they could kill him. Then in Mark 11:19 it is said at evening he went back out of the city. Then the next morning Mark 11:20 (Day 3, this evening and morning was only covered in Mark) They went back by the fig tree and it had dried up from the roots went to the temple where Jesus taught all day. No mention of buyers and sellers nor moneychangers, in all likely-hood the weekly sabbath. At the end of this day Jesus says after two days is the passover Matt. 26:2. Course this would make the passover begin at even on Monday with the death of Christ on Tuesday about 3pm buried just before sunset and after being in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights his resurrection would have been just at the beginning of the sabbath day rather than at the end of the sabbath day.

www.todd-derstine.com/americaspropheticdestiny/the-passion-week-a-day-by-day-account/

Phish
Feb 11th 2011, 04:14 AM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OR

Luke 19 and John 12:1 Six days before passover Jesus and his disciples journeyed from Jericho toward Jerusalem stopping at Bethany at the house of Lazarus, Mary and Martha ate supper. The next day(Day 1) was the triumphal entry into Jerusalem John 12:12 where at the temple he also cast out those that bought and sold and the moneychangers and said they were making his house of prayer a den of thieves. Returned to Bethany that night Matt. 21:17, Mark 11:11. The next morning (Day 2) he was hungry Matt. 21:18 Mark 11:12 returning to Jerusalem saw a fig tree and cursed it for not having fruit and it began to wither and Mark goes on to say he went back to the temple the buyers and sellers and moneychangers were back and he cast them out again and told them his house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer but they had made it a den of thieves. The scribes and priests heard him say this and sought how they could kill him. Then in Mark 11:19 it is said at evening he went back out of the city. Then the next morning Mark 11:20 (Day 3, this evening and morning was only covered in Mark) They went back by the fig tree and it had dried up from the roots went to the temple where Jesus taught all day. No mention of buyers and sellers nor moneychangers, in all likely-hood the weekly sabbath. At the end of this day Jesus says after two days is the passover Matt. 26:2. Course this would make the passover begin at even on Monday with the death of Christ on Tuesday about 3pm buried just before sunset and after being in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights his resurrection would have been just at the beginning of the sabbath day rather than at the end of the sabbath day.

www.todd-derstine.com/americaspropheticdestiny/the-passion-week-a-day-by-day-account/

Keeps getting better and better doesn't it.

I need to go through the Luke account, I have been through the John, Matt and Mark.

little watchman
Feb 11th 2011, 09:08 AM
In reference to John 12:1 where Jesus arrives at Bethany I calculated this to be on the 9th of Nisan and not the 8th like we would assume. Here's why

John 12:12 states that the next day he rides into Jerusalem which we know to be the 10th of Nisan. This creates a problem because you couldn't have a sabbath between the days( the day Jesus arrived and what we know as Palm Sunday). It seems Jesus must have traveled to Bethany on the 9th of Nisan and arrived that afternoon (it appears he came from Ephriam John 11:54), Later that evening which would have been the 10th of Nisan Jesus would be annointed (John 12:3) then, the next day/morning rode into Jerusalem (same day, 10th of Nisan) to present himself as the Lamb as required.

This would also seem to indicate that the 9th of Nisan would have to be at least a Sunday and not a Sabbath thus makeing a Wed 14th of Nisan seem impossible. This brings us back to Square 1 because this places the 14th of Nisan on Friday like tradition supposses, but begs the question of how you can have 3 days and 3 nights in the grave.
...
When you count ahead 6 days to the 14th of Nisan, you also need to count part of the 9th of Nisan will give you 6 days, this helps with John 12:1

I've read this a few times and I still don't get it. Why do we know the Triumphant Entry was on 10 Nisan? When I count backwards 6 days from 14 Nisan I get 8 Nisan. If 15 Nisan was what we call Thursday, then 8 Nisan was also Thursday, and the Triumphant Entry could have taken place on a Friday, 9 Nisan. Am I missing something obvious? Would this have conflicted with a day of preparation (for the sabbath)?



You actually believe Jesus resurrected on Saturday? Are you a SDA?

Of the three sources of articles I've now looked that declare that Jesus rose on or just before the sabbath, none are SDA. One is quite independent and the other two are rather messianic- or Hebrew-roots-Christian. When I suggested a non-Friday crucifixion to some SDA friends, most had never considered it, one had considered it but rejected it, and another believed in a Wednesday crucifixion.



So, you believe Jesus entered Jerusalem on a Sabbath day, putting his weight on a donkey on a Sabbath day...? Contrary to Scripture....?

I don't understand yet how a Wednesday=14 Nisan crucifixion requires a 10 Nisan Triumphant Entry.



So, you believe Jesus resurrected on a day of rest?

An intriguing possibility, though. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.



Tell me, why did God ordain in his law to offer the firstfruits on Sunday morning?

Why did God order Israel to celebrate Pentecost on Sunday morning?


Don't know, but Albert James Dager and Roy A. Reinhold (who support a Wednesday crucifixion) both suggest that Jesus presented himself to the Father on 18 Nisan (Sunday) before appearing to the disciples.

Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17

I don't think there is a contradiction. The waving of the firstfruits (when Jesus presented himself to the Father) could have happened on Sunday while the resurrection could have happened on Sabbath.



Why do we see Paul telling us twice about the first day of the week in the NT?


In Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:12 we have the phrase "the first day of the week" which is the greek "mia ton sabbaton," which means literally "one of the sabbaths." If you are talking about the "first day" you would want to instead use the term "protos hemera" as was used in Mark 14:12: "first day of unleavened bread." These verses may not be referring to Sunday at all. Incidentally "mia ton sabbaton" also occurs in John 20:1, describing when the women went to the tomb. I could use a little help here with the greek, here.



Thursday 14th Crucified at 9 am, sun gets dark at noon as prophecied in Amos 8:9And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day, dies at 3 pm, burried before sunset to prevent the curse to fall on us as declared in Deu 21:23 .
Friday 15th (A high sabbath, John 19:31/Lev 23:10-12, a super holy holiday, a day of rest after passover. This day signified what the blood of Jesus did for this world, removed sin)
Saturday 16th (a day of rest, Jesus rested this day in the grave, the next day, he went back to work)

This interpretation makes me feel uncomfortable reconciling Luke 23:54-56. How could the women observe the tomb and how his body was laid before the Sabbath but after the burial? There would be no time between the two sabbaths for this to occur.


http://www.todd-derstine.com/americaspropheticdestiny/the-passion-week-a-day-by-day-account/
A Tuesday crucifixion? My brain is going to explode!

Phish
Feb 11th 2011, 04:20 PM
I've read this a few times and I still don't get it. Why do we know the Triumphant Entry was on 10 Nisan? When I count backwards 6 days from 14 Nisan I get 8 Nisan. If 15 Nisan was what we call Thursday, then 8 Nisan was also Thursday, and the Triumphant Entry could have taken place on a Friday, 9 Nisan. Am I missing something obvious? Would this have conflicted with a day of preparation (for the sabbath)?



Of the three sources of articles I've now looked that declare that Jesus rose on or just before the sabbath, none are SDA. One is quite independent and the other two are rather messianic- or Hebrew-roots-Christian. When I suggested a non-Friday crucifixion to some SDA friends, most had never considered it, one had considered it but rejected it, and another believed in a Wednesday crucifixion.


I don't understand yet how a Wednesday=14 Nisan crucifixion requires a 10 Nisan Triumphant Entry.


An intriguing possibility, though. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.



Don't know, but Albert James Dager and Roy A. Reinhold (who support a Wednesday crucifixion) both suggest that Jesus presented himself to the Father on 18 Nisan (Sunday) before appearing to the disciples.

Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17

I don't think there is a contradiction. The waving of the firstfruits (when Jesus presented himself to the Father) could have happened on Sunday while the resurrection could have happened on Sabbath.



In Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:12 we have the phrase "the first day of the week" which is the greek "mia ton sabbaton," which means literally "one of the sabbaths." If you are talking about the "first day" you would want to instead use the term "protos hemera" as was used in Mark 14:12: "first day of unleavened bread." These verses may not be referring to Sunday at all. Incidentally "mia ton sabbaton" also occurs in John 20:1, describing when the women went to the tomb. I could use a little help here with the greek, here.


This interpretation makes me feel uncomfortable reconciling Luke 23:54-56. How could the women observe the tomb and how his body was laid before the Sabbath but after the burial? There would be no time between the two sabbaths for this to occur.


A Tuesday crucifixion? My brain is going to explode!

I think all our brains are exploding on this one. Definitely not easy to put it all together. The Tenth of Nisan was the day the Men were to take a Lamb without Blemish into their homes and would be sacrified, Many beleive that Palm Sunday fullfilled this when Jesus presented himself as the Lamb. Except now I think it may have been Palm Monday (Head Starting to explode again)


Exd 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house:

Beckrl
Feb 11th 2011, 10:39 PM
So, you believe Jesus entered Jerusalem on a Sabbath day, putting his weight on a donkey on a Sabbath day...? Contrary to Scripture....?

How so? What day is 5 days from the 14th of Nisan which is passover? To me in my account it would be on the Friday the 29th of March or Nisan 9th that Jesus entered Jerusalem on the donkey fulfilling the scripture of the Messiah from Zech.9.9

Taken the account by John 12:1 & 12. Six days before passover would be the 8th of Nisan and the next day Jesus entered the city on the 9th day of Nisan. The 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th is 5 days before the passover. If passover was on Wednesday 14th that would make his entry on a Friday. In Matthew's account Jesus entered the city cleaned the Temple and then went out of the city and logded in Bethany.





So, you believe Jesus resurrected on a day of rest?

To fulfill the three days and three nights He would have to remain in the tomb at the ending of the sabbath and the beginning of the first day. Somewhere around Saturday after 6pm which would be the first day. It wasn't until the dawn of that first day that the women came to the tomb and found it empty.



Tell me, why did God ordain in his law to offer the firstfruits on Sunday morning?

Why did God order Israel to celebrate Pentecost on Sunday morning?

Why do we see Paul telling us twice about the first day of the week in the NT?

Thank you !

Shalom

I'll hold off responsing to these until we acknowledge the above comments.

percho
Feb 11th 2011, 10:54 PM
I've read this a few times and I still don't get it. Why do we know the Triumphant Entry was on 10 Nisan? When I count backwards 6 days from 14 Nisan I get 8 Nisan. If 15 Nisan was what we call Thursday, then 8 Nisan was also Thursday, and the Triumphant Entry could have taken place on a Friday, 9 Nisan. Am I missing something obvious? Would this have conflicted with a day of preparation (for the sabbath)?



Of the three sources of articles I've now looked that declare that Jesus rose on or just before the sabbath, none are SDA. One is quite independent and the other two are rather messianic- or Hebrew-roots-Christian. When I suggested a non-Friday crucifixion to some SDA friends, most had never considered it, one had considered it but rejected it, and another believed in a Wednesday crucifixion.


I don't understand yet how a Wednesday=14 Nisan crucifixion requires a 10 Nisan Triumphant Entry.


An intriguing possibility, though. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.



Don't know, but Albert James Dager and Roy A. Reinhold (who support a Wednesday crucifixion) both suggest that Jesus presented himself to the Father on 18 Nisan (Sunday) before appearing to the disciples.

Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17

I don't think there is a contradiction. The waving of the firstfruits (when Jesus presented himself to the Father) could have happened on Sunday while the resurrection could have happened on Sabbath.



In Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:12 we have the phrase "the first day of the week" which is the greek "mia ton sabbaton," which means literally "one of the sabbaths." If you are talking about the "first day" you would want to instead use the term "protos hemera" as was used in Mark 14:12: "first day of unleavened bread." These verses may not be referring to Sunday at all. Incidentally "mia ton sabbaton" also occurs in John 20:1, describing when the women went to the tomb. I could use a little help here with the greek, here.


This interpretation makes me feel uncomfortable reconciling Luke 23:54-56. How could the women observe the tomb and how his body was laid before the Sabbath but after the burial? There would be no time between the two sabbaths for this to occur.


A Tuesday crucifixion? My brain is going to explode!


I had never considered this nor had heard it and was looking for something else when it came up. I had counted the days forward and backward before and knew Mark had a day listed others did not. I have been for a Wednesday death for some time but always had a problem because of Jesus riding a beast of burden on Sabbath. I also believe Jesus to have been buried three days and three nights lit 72 hours. However reading the above does cover all day time elements according to the word of God better than anything I have read before. I do not know who this person is. Never heard of him before. It allows for everything covered in the passion week except the 10th thing. Even I might add the mystery of Matt. 27:52,53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Being that would have been on the Sabbath. I believe the women arrived around sunup on the first day of the week and of course he was gone and only appeared to them at his will and for his purpose to show the fulfillment of the waving of the sheaf on the morrow after the Sabbath.

More food for thought.

Servant89
Feb 12th 2011, 03:43 AM
Friday: 8 Nissan, six days before the passover
John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany (a travel day), where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2 There they made him a supper (to welcome the sabbath day, families had special dinner right after sunset, now it is Sabbath day, 5 days before passover, 9 nissan); and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
......................4 days before passover: 10th Nissan, Palm Sunday
12 On the next day (4 days before passover, Palm Sunday) much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
..............Monday, 3 days before passover
..............Tuesday 2 days before passover
..............Wednesday, 1 days before passover
..............Thursday, passover, dies at 3 pm, gets buried BEFORE sunset.
Friday (a high sabbath), then the weekly Sabbath, he is in the grave.
Sunday he resurrects, 3 days and 3 nights later,

The 10th is the day of selecting the passover lamb
The 10th is the day of selecting the king
The 10th is the day of entering the promised land (which we do, when we select Jesus as our passover lamb and our king)

That is how I see it, I know, it is too perfect. But I expect no less,

Ps 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Shalom

Phish
Feb 12th 2011, 07:10 AM
Friday: 8 Nissan, six days before the passover
John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany (a travel day), where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2 There they made him a supper (to welcome the sabbath day, families had special dinner right after sunset, now it is Sabbath day, 5 days before passover, 9 nissan); and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
......................4 days before passover: 10th Nissan, Palm Sunday
12 On the next day (4 days before passover, Palm Sunday) much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
..............Monday, 3 days before passover
..............Tuesday 2 days before passover
..............Wednesday, 1 days before passover
..............Thursday, passover, dies at 3 pm, gets buried BEFORE sunset.
Friday (a high sabbath), then the weekly Sabbath, he is in the grave.
Sunday he resurrects, 3 days and 3 nights later,

The 10th is the day of selecting the passover lamb
The 10th is the day of selecting the king
The 10th is the day of entering the promised land (which we do, when we select Jesus as our passover lamb and our king)

That is how I see it, I know, it is too perfect. But I expect no less,

Ps 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Shalom

Hey, I know this is killing me, I apologize but I think we nned some clarifiaction

On point 12 you have the next day as palm Sunday, the Night before you started the Sabbath for the dinner, but before dinner they were traveling?

If the Sabbath started in the evening, it would still be Sabbtah day the next day until Evening. It looks like you skipped a whole day somehow.

Beckrl
Feb 12th 2011, 08:31 PM
Friday: 8 Nissan, six days before the passover
John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany (a travel day), where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2 There they made him a supper (to welcome the sabbath day, families had special dinner right after sunset, now it is Sabbath day, 5 days before passover, 9 nissan); and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
......................4 days before passover: 10th Nissan, Palm Sunday
12 On the next day (4 days before passover, Palm Sunday) much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
..............Monday, 3 days before passover
..............Tuesday 2 days before passover
..............Wednesday, 1 days before passover
..............Thursday, passover, dies at 3 pm, gets buried BEFORE sunset.
Friday (a high sabbath), then the weekly Sabbath, he is in the grave.
Sunday he resurrects, 3 days and 3 nights later,

The 10th is the day of selecting the passover lamb
The 10th is the day of selecting the king
The 10th is the day of entering the promised land (which we do, when we select Jesus as our passover lamb and our king)

That is how I see it, I know, it is too perfect. But I expect no less,

Ps 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Shalom

The key day is Passover Day which is on Nisan 14th and accounting to how the Jewish custom of counting the beginning of months they relaid on the new moon. So according to this that passover day fell on Wednesday April 3rd, 30AD. And the slaining of the lamb would be between 3pm and 6pm just before the new day. The next day the 15th of nisan was a High Sabbath the first day of unleaven bread feast. (Exodus 12:16-18).


Sunday 18th Nisan (First day of the week the tomb was empty)


Saturday 17th Nisan the weekly sabbath (3rd day and night in the tomb)


Friday 16th Nisan (2nd day and night in the tomb)


Thursday 15th Nisan High Sabbath Unleaven Bread (1st day and night in the tomb)


Wednesday the 14th Nisan Passover 6pm to 6pm


Tuesday the 13th Nisan (1 day before)


Monday the 12th Nisan (2days before)


Sunday 11th Nisan (3 days before)


Saturday 10th Nisan the weekly sabbath (4 days before)


Friday 9th Nisan (5th day before) Jesus entry into the city. (John 12:12)


Thursday 8th Nisan (6 days before)

Phish
Feb 12th 2011, 08:46 PM
The key day is Passover Day which is on Nisan 14th and accounting to how the Jewish custom of counting the beginning of months they relaid on the new moon. So according to this that passover day fell on Wednesday April 3rd, 30AD. And the slaining of the lamb would be between 3pm and 6pm just before the new day. The next day the 15th of nisan was a High Sabbath the first day of unleaven bread feast. (Exodus 12:16-18).


Sunday 18th Nisan (First day of the week the tomb was empty)


Saturday 17th Nisan the weekly sabbath (3rd day and night in the tomb)


Friday 16th Nisan (2nd day and night in the tomb)


Thursday 15th Nisan High Sabbath Unleaven Bread (1st day and night in the tomb)


Wednesday the 14th Nisan Passover 6pm to 6pm


Tuesday the 13th Nisan (1 day before)


Monday the 12th Nisan (2days before)


Sunday 11th Nisan (3 days before)


Saturday 10th Nisan the weekly sabbath (4 days before)


Friday 9th Nisan (5th day before) Jesus entry into the city. (John 12:12)


Thursday 8th Nisan (6 days before)


Palm Friday,

I guess its better than Palm Monday

percho
Feb 13th 2011, 04:48 AM
The key day is Passover Day which is on Nisan 14th and accounting to how the Jewish custom of counting the beginning of months they relaid on the new moon. So according to this that passover day fell on Wednesday April 3rd, 30AD. And the slaining of the lamb would be between 3pm and 6pm just before the new day. The next day the 15th of nisan was a High Sabbath the first day of unleaven bread feast. (Exodus 12:16-18).


Sunday 18th Nisan (First day of the week the tomb was empty)


Saturday 17th Nisan the weekly sabbath (3rd day and night in the tomb)


Friday 16th Nisan (2nd day and night in the tomb)


Thursday 15th Nisan High Sabbath Unleaven Bread (1st day and night in the tomb)


Wednesday the 14th Nisan Passover 6pm to 6pm


Tuesday the 13th Nisan (1 day before)


Monday the 12th Nisan (2days before)


Sunday 11th Nisan (3 days before)


Saturday 10th Nisan the weekly sabbath (4 days before)


Friday 9th Nisan (5th day before) Jesus entry into the city. (John 12:12)


Thursday 8th Nisan (6 days before)


Being Mark has an extra day on which also the temple was cleaned this second cleaning would have taken place on sabbath. Do you think there would have been buying and selling in the court of the Gentiles on the sabbath? I do think this is a valid point.

watchinginawe
Feb 13th 2011, 05:17 AM
It is only for the protection of The Lord's Day that one would not agree with the story of the seed I posted. I have to take exception to that percho. It is perfectly reasonable to read the Gospels and conclude a Friday crucifixion. It is what it is, it is not necessary to derive a motive worked around Sunday worship. See, that is the problem with this 72 hour stuff. It becomes nearly esoteric about finding out "the mystery", the missing days, etc. At the end, a whole narritive of many days is simply inserted without any basis. The plain reading indicates a Friday crucifixion and a resurrection "the third day". Much like the following:

Exodus 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,

11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
...
14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.

15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.

16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.



With the most numerous of Jesus sayings that He would rise "the third day", we have to day (Friday), to morrow (Saturday), and "the third day", or Sunday.

Anyway, believe whatever conspiricies regarding the "Lord's Day" you wish, but there are a lot of easier ways to come up with a Friday crucifixion than to just discard it as some elaborate plot to discredit the sabbath. Also, I see you propose an exact 72 hour model, which puts Jesus raising from the tomb on the sabbath, before sundown. Outside of "it has to be that way" because of 72 hours or some the "seed theory", what kind of scripture can you give that indicates that Jesus might actually have risen on the sabbath instead of the first day of the week?

I don't mean to sound testy, this is just one of those topics where I see smart folks saying things they ought not IMO (like "you make Jesus a liar", etc.). I better let it go...

watchinginawe
Feb 13th 2011, 06:00 AM
Hey, I didn't say I was happy with it. To be honest I don't know.

I'm playing with the idea that 3 days and 3 nights is just a Jewish way to say what we would say in English 3 days.I agree with the view of a Jewish idiom. We see this in Esther as well in her fast declaration:

Esther 4:16 Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

17 So Mordecai went his way, and did according to all that Esther had commanded him.

So what happened? In Esther 5 we have:

Esther 5:1 Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house.

On the third day. Wouldn't that have still been a day of fasting before going in before the king? This text is pointed to often in the defense of a Jewish idiom meant for "3 days and 3 nights".

Also, regarding a Sabbath resurrection, one would have to ask themselves why Jesus didn't take the liberty to straighten out the whole account with those on the rode to Emmaus. Consider:

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
We have "the day" set for us here. It was the "first day of the week". Now, we know it isn't a sabbath, because the women have waited until that had passed. It would certainly seem reasonable that Sunday is referenced here.

13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
This happend later that "same day", Sunday.

14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
Jesus Himself joins with them on their journey.

16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
Here is fixed the events that took place. Jesus was betrayed and handed over to the Romans to be put to death by crucifixion.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
There it is, the third day, Sunday. The Jewish reckoning is to day (Friday), to morrow (Saturday), and then the third day (Sunday).

33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
It is indisputable at this point that Jesus had risen. He had appeared to Simon, and He had appeared to the pair on the road to Emmaus. Certainly it doesn't seem suggested that there were "days" between "The Lord is risen indeed" and "hath appeared to Simon". These are the events of the day, Sunday. What does Jesus say when he next appears to all gathererd at that point?

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Taking the 72 hour theory, knowing that Jesus Christ was buried just before 6:00 pm, the burial would have had to taken place on Wednesday afternoon. Then Jesus would have been in the tomb 24 hours to Thursday afternoon, then 24 more hours to Friday afternoon, then 24 more hours to Saturday afternoon. If Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, how is it that these events which were being described on Sunday were "the third day" after His crucifixion? Now some people recognize this and put the extra high sabbath in there and arive at a Thursday afternoon burial and reckon the events of Thursday being the day that those from Emmaus were referencing. Thus, like westerners, they would have reckoned Friday as "the first day after Thursday, the day of the events" and thus Sunday as "the third day". But the 72 hours is not fulfilled in this reckoning so only a partial completion of the "3 days and 3 nights" is accomplished. Also, a whole missing day of events must be dealt with in the synoptic Gospels.

Also, from the same Gospel, we have this of Jesus' reckoning a "third day":

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Jesus uses the same reckoning, to day (in the case of the Crucifixion, Friday), to morrow (Saturday), and then the third day.

The plain reading is the best one to go with and the one that has the additional strength of matching up with the historical observance of events.

Phish
Feb 13th 2011, 03:10 PM
I agree with the view of a Jewish idiom. We see this in Esther as well in her fast declaration:

Esther 4:16 Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

17 So Mordecai went his way, and did according to all that Esther had commanded him.

So what happened? In Esther 5 we have:

Esther 5:1 Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house.

On the third day. Wouldn't that have still been a day of fasting before going in before the king? This text is pointed to often in the defense of a Jewish idiom meant for "3 days and 3 nights".

Also, regarding a Sabbath resurrection, one would have to ask themselves why Jesus didn't take the liberty to straighten out the whole account with those on the rode to Emmaus. Consider:

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
We have "the day" set for us here. It was the "first day of the week". Now, we know it isn't a sabbath, because the women have waited until that had passed. It would certainly seem reasonable that Sunday is referenced here.

13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
This happend later that "same day", Sunday.

14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
Jesus Himself joins with them on their journey.

16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
Here is fixed the events that took place. Jesus was betrayed and handed over to the Romans to be put to death by crucifixion.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
There it is, the third day, Sunday. The Jewish reckoning is to day (Friday), to morrow (Saturday), and then the third day (Sunday).

33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
It is indisputable at this point that Jesus had risen. He had appeared to Simon, and He had appeared to the pair on the road to Emmaus. Certainly it doesn't seem suggested that there were "days" between "The Lord is risen indeed" and "hath appeared to Simon". These are the events of the day, Sunday. What does Jesus say when he next appears to all gathererd at that point?

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Taking the 72 hour theory, knowing that Jesus Christ was buried just before 6:00 pm, the burial would have had to taken place on Wednesday afternoon. Then Jesus would have been in the tomb 24 hours to Thursday afternoon, then 24 more hours to Friday afternoon, then 24 more hours to Saturday afternoon. If Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, how is it that these events which were being described on Sunday were "the third day" after His crucifixion? Now some people recognize this and put the extra high sabbath in there and arive at a Thursday afternoon burial and reckon the events of Thursday being the day that those from Emmaus were referencing. Thus, like westerners, they would have reckoned Friday as "the first day after Thursday, the day of the events" and thus Sunday as "the third day". But the 72 hours is not fulfilled in this reckoning so only a partial completion of the "3 days and 3 nights" is accomplished. Also, a whole missing day of events must be dealt with in the synoptic Gospels.

Also, from the same Gospel, we have this of Jesus' reckoning a "third day":

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Jesus uses the same reckoning, to day (in the case of the Crucifixion, Friday), to morrow (Saturday), and then the third day.

The plain reading is the best one to go with and the one that has the additional strength of matching up with the historical observance of events.

Well Done, very well done, Thank You

There is another one in Act 10 with the days not adding up

Phish
Feb 13th 2011, 03:19 PM
Being Mark has an extra day on which also the temple was cleaned this second cleaning would have taken place on sabbath. Do you think there would have been buying and selling in the court of the Gentiles on the sabbath? I do think this is a valid point.

Also, The day Jesus leave the temple he has the Olivet Discourse witht the Deciples and at the End of the discourse Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified., this was the day after He rode into Jerusalem

Beckrl
Feb 13th 2011, 09:00 PM
Being Mark has an extra day on which also the temple was cleaned this second cleaning would have taken place on sabbath. Do you think there would have been buying and selling in the court of the Gentiles on the sabbath? I do think this is a valid point.

Jesus spoke of that generation as an evil generation calling them vipers.(Matthew 23:13-36) Jesus cleaned the temple of them and said it was the house of Prayer instead they have maded it into a den of thieves. What greater reason would Jesus need for them to be buying and selling in the temple on the sabbath to have casted them out? It's not like they had not done it before, Remember in Nehemiah 13:15-18?


Knowing that 14th Nisan is Passover, What day of the week would that be on?


If we say it was on Thursday or any other day what proof is there? If we say it's on Friday then the following day would be the first day of Unleaven Bread an High Sabbath then Sunday. Jesus would only been in the tomb one day and night.


I've shown that by the counting of the New Moon the 14th of Nisan would fall on Wednesday the 3rd of 30AD.


To say it's any other day than Wednesday would make the account of three days and three night only two days and nights. Shall we say Jesus was misleading or that the fact that Peter said that God raised Jesus up the third day. Given reference to Matthew 12:39-40, As Noah was three days and nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the Son of Man, and Hosea 6:2.
How do we know what day is passover in 2011, 2012, etc? Shall we not use the same method to determine what day was passover when Jesus was placed on the cross? :confused

percho
Feb 15th 2011, 04:30 AM
Beckrl


As I said earlier I have always been a proponent of Wednesday being the 14th and the day of the death of Jesus but while looking for something for this thread and I do not remember just what I was trying to find I came across the link I put in post 69 I think it was. Did you read that link? I haven't per say studied it yet just from glancing thru it, it made a lot of sense especially relative to the extra day that is in Marks account concerning the six days before passover. However it would have the resurrection at the beginning of the weekly sabbath instead of the end taking Three days and three nights literal which I do right up to it being seventy two hours. I do not know how to find out or who I would trust on telling me if there was a possible 14th of Nissan on a Tuesday from 29 to 34 AD. Maybe you could help in that regard.

Beckrl
Feb 15th 2011, 11:59 PM
Beckrl


As I said earlier I have always been a proponent of Wednesday being the 14th and the day of the death of Jesus but while looking for something for this thread and I do not remember just what I was trying to find I came across the link I put in post 69 I think it was. Did you read that link? I haven't per say studied it yet just from glancing thru it, it made a lot of sense especially relative to the extra day that is in Marks account concerning the six days before passover. However it would have the resurrection at the beginning of the weekly sabbath instead of the end taking Three days and three nights literal which I do right up to it being seventy two hours. I do not know how to find out or who I would trust on telling me if there was a possible 14th of Nissan on a Tuesday from 29 to 34 AD. Maybe you could help in that regard.

In regards to that link he seem to be indicating that the death of Christ is March 27 31AD, mading that after passover. Which would be Nisan 17th. He also concludes that Jesus cleaned the temple not once not twice, but three times. Not only is the 27 an odd day what is even odder is the year 31AD. Jesus proclaimed that the year was a acceptable year of the Lord making this a Jubliee years (Leviticus 25:8-11). The year 31AD would not have been a Jubliee. I find no where that he give how he came to those dates.

The only way to determine when passover is for the past and future is to count the ending and beginning of new moon's. That is the reason I give that link to Rosetta Calendar (http://www.rosettacalendar.com/) you can place the year and month into the Gregorian calendar and covert then use the Hebrew calendar to place the day and check where that day fell on the week by using the new moon.

Nisan 14th 29AD (Saturday), Nisan 14th 30AD (Wednesday), Nisan 14th 31AD (Monday), Nisan 14th 32AD (Monday), Nisan 14th 33AD (Friday), Nisan 14th 34AD (Monday).

Servant89
Feb 16th 2011, 10:23 PM
Hey, I know this is killing me, I apologize but I think we nned some clarifiaction

On point 12 you have the next day as palm Sunday, the Night before you started the Sabbath for the dinner, but before dinner they were traveling?

If the Sabbath started in the evening, it would still be Sabbtah day the next day until Evening. It looks like you skipped a whole day somehow.

Friday: 8 Nissan, six days before the passover
John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany (a travel day, Friday), where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. (Jus travelled during the day on Friday. They prepared dinner on Friday just before sunset as it is customary to do, it is illegal to prepare food on Sabbath days,. Then, right after sunset on Friday night our time, Sabbath day their time, verse 2 takes place, Jews welcome sabbath days with dinner).
2 There they made him a supper (to welcome the sabbath day, families had special dinner right after sunset, now it is Sabbath day, 5 days before passover, 9 nissan); and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
On sabbath day they rested, the day they ate was sabbath day.

in this scenario, no one travels on Sabbath days, in this scenario, no one rides a donkey on sabbath day. In this scenario, Jesus dies 3 days and 3 nights before Sunday morning, before sunrise.

Shalom

Beckrl
Feb 17th 2011, 01:07 AM
Friday: 8 Nissan, six days before the passover
John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany (a travel day, Friday), where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. (Jus travelled during the day on Friday. They prepared dinner on Friday just before sunset as it is customary to do, it is illegal to prepare food on Sabbath days,. Then, right after sunset on Friday night our time, Sabbath day their time, verse 2 takes place, Jews welcome sabbath days with dinner).
2 There they made him a supper (to welcome the sabbath day, families had special dinner right after sunset, now it is Sabbath day, 5 days before passover, 9 nissan); and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
On sabbath day they rested, the day they ate was sabbath day.

in this scenario, no one travels on Sabbath days, in this scenario, no one rides a donkey on sabbath day. In this scenario, Jesus dies 3 days and 3 nights before Sunday morning, before sunrise.

Shalom

Just curious how you have determined that Friday was the 8th Nisan and passover on Thursday. :confused

Servant89
Feb 17th 2011, 12:13 PM
Just curious how you have determined that Friday was the 8th Nisan and passover on Thursday. :confused

This is how you see things:

The key day is Passover Day which is on Nisan 14th and accounting to how the Jewish custom of counting the beginning of months they relaid on the new moon. So according to this that passover day fell on Wednesday April 3rd, 30AD. And the slaining of the lamb would be between 3pm and 6pm just before the new day. The next day the 15th of nisan was a High Sabbath the first day of unleaven bread feast. (Exodus 12:16-18).

•Sunday 18th Nisan (First day of the week the tomb was empty)
•Saturday 17th Nisan the weekly sabbath (3rd day and night in the tomb)
•Friday 16th Nisan (2nd day and night in the tomb)
•Thursday 15th Nisan High Sabbath Unleaven Bread (1st day and night in the tomb)
•Wednesday the 14th Nisan Passover 6pm to 6pm
•Tuesday the 13th Nisan (1 day before)
•Monday the 12th Nisan (2days before)
•Sunday 11th Nisan (3 days before)
•Saturday 10th Nisan the weekly sabbath (4 days before)
•Friday 9th Nisan (5th day before) Jesus entry into the city. (John 12:12)
•Thursday 8th Nisan (6 days before)

And the reason why you see it like that is because on John 12, you are assuming that Jesus entered Jerusalem 5 days after passover. I have to admit, if that is the only Scripture we have, I will agree with you. It is fairly straight forward (John 12). But reaching that conclusion violates many other Scriptural requirements and that is why I see it in another way. Let me explain.

You have Jesus resurrecting on the day of Rest. I believe it makes more sense to see Jesus resting on the day of Rest.
You have Jesus entering Jerusalem on the 9th of Nissan. That misses the point of the 10th of nissan. The day of selecting the king, is the day of selecting the passover lamb and when we selected Jesus as our passover lamb and our king, that is the day we enter the promised land, Israel entered the promised land on the 10th of the first month. This day, entering Jerusalem on a donkey is the day that caused Israel to be destroyed in 70 AD. It is a big day. It makes more sense to me for Jesus to enter Jerusalem on the 10th of Nissan, especially, if that locates his resurrection on Sunday morning reflecting the apostolic practice of first day of the week.

To me, all those problems go away with a simple assumption, they travelled on Friday in John 12, prepared the sabbath meal on Friday afternoon, ate the sabbath meal after sunset (Sabbath day), rested sabbath day and then Jesus entered Jerusalem on Sunday.

Shalom

Phish
Feb 17th 2011, 12:36 PM
Friday: 8 Nissan, six days before the passover
John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany (a travel day, Friday), where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. (Jus travelled during the day on Friday. They prepared dinner on Friday just before sunset as it is customary to do, it is illegal to prepare food on Sabbath days,. Then, right after sunset on Friday night our time, Sabbath day their time, verse 2 takes place, Jews welcome sabbath days with dinner).
2 There they made him a supper (to welcome the sabbath day, families had special dinner right after sunset, now it is Sabbath day, 5 days before passover, 9 nissan); and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
On sabbath day they rested, the day they ate was sabbath day.

in this scenario, no one travels on Sabbath days, in this scenario, no one rides a donkey on sabbath day. In this scenario, Jesus dies 3 days and 3 nights before Sunday morning, before sunrise.

Shalom

I understand now what you are talking about, I was thrown off by John 12:3 being the next day. I went back and checked and yes it makes sense.

However, I went to the Rosseta Calander and I checked all the dates between 26 AD anf 36 AD and the 14th of Nisan never falls on a Thursday, unless I did it wrong.

Phish
Feb 17th 2011, 12:53 PM
This is how you see things:

The key day is Passover Day which is on Nisan 14th and accounting to how the Jewish custom of counting the beginning of months they relaid on the new moon. So according to this that passover day fell on Wednesday April 3rd, 30AD. And the slaining of the lamb would be between 3pm and 6pm just before the new day. The next day the 15th of nisan was a High Sabbath the first day of unleaven bread feast. (Exodus 12:16-18).

•Sunday 18th Nisan (First day of the week the tomb was empty)
•Saturday 17th Nisan the weekly sabbath (3rd day and night in the tomb)
•Friday 16th Nisan (2nd day and night in the tomb)
•Thursday 15th Nisan High Sabbath Unleaven Bread (1st day and night in the tomb)
•Wednesday the 14th Nisan Passover 6pm to 6pm
•Tuesday the 13th Nisan (1 day before)
•Monday the 12th Nisan (2days before)
•Sunday 11th Nisan (3 days before)
•Saturday 10th Nisan the weekly sabbath (4 days before)
•Friday 9th Nisan (5th day before) Jesus entry into the city. (John 12:12)
•Thursday 8th Nisan (6 days before)

And the reason why you see it like that is because on John 12, you are assuming that Jesus entered Jerusalem 5 days after passover. I have to admit, if that is the only Scripture we have, I will agree with you. It is fairly straight forward (John 12). But reaching that conclusion violates many other Scriptural requirements and that is why I see it in another way. Let me explain.

You have Jesus resurrecting on the day of Rest. I believe it makes more sense to see Jesus resting on the day of Rest.
You have Jesus entering Jerusalem on the 9th of Nissan. That misses the point of the 10th of nissan. The day of selecting the king, is the day of selecting the passover lamb and when we selected Jesus as our passover lamb and our king, that is the day we enter the promised land, Israel entered the promised land on the 10th of the first month. This day, entering Jerusalem on a donkey is the day that caused Israel to be destroyed in 70 AD. It is a big day. It makes more sense to me for Jesus to enter Jerusalem on the 10th of Nissan, especially, if that locates his resurrection on Sunday morning reflecting the apostolic practice of first day of the week.

To me, all those problems go away with a simple assumption, they travelled on Friday in John 12, prepared the sabbath meal on Friday afternoon, ate the sabbath meal after sunset (Sabbath day), rested sabbath day and then Jesus entered Jerusalem on Sunday.

Shalom

I agree with you, It really is starting to seem like you have to sqeeze a Wenesday Crucificion to make it work, It just doesn't fall in nicely like you say. It would be wrong to discount other scripture just to make the one scripture work that started this whole mess in the first place Matt 12:40 (three days and three nights) I really think there has to be another answer.

For reasons you sited above and at least one scripture Matt 26:1 I would have to say its just not working.

Beckrl
Feb 17th 2011, 10:46 PM
This is how you see things:

The key day is Passover Day which is on Nisan 14th and accounting to how the Jewish custom of counting the beginning of months they relaid on the new moon. So according to this that passover day fell on Wednesday April 3rd, 30AD. And the slaining of the lamb would be between 3pm and 6pm just before the new day. The next day the 15th of nisan was a High Sabbath the first day of unleaven bread feast. (Exodus 12:16-18).

•Sunday 18th Nisan (First day of the week the tomb was empty)
•Saturday 17th Nisan the weekly sabbath (3rd day and night in the tomb)
•Friday 16th Nisan (2nd day and night in the tomb)
•Thursday 15th Nisan High Sabbath Unleaven Bread (1st day and night in the tomb)
•Wednesday the 14th Nisan Passover 6pm to 6pm
•Tuesday the 13th Nisan (1 day before)
•Monday the 12th Nisan (2days before)
•Sunday 11th Nisan (3 days before)
•Saturday 10th Nisan the weekly sabbath (4 days before)
•Friday 9th Nisan (5th day before) Jesus entry into the city. (John 12:12)
•Thursday 8th Nisan (6 days before)

And the reason why you see it like that is because on John 12, you are assuming that Jesus entered Jerusalem 5 days after passover. I have to admit, if that is the only Scripture we have, I will agree with you. It is fairly straight forward (John 12).What you also must take into account is John 12:1 gives 6 days before passover. And the reason I put it that way is because Phish had issues with John 12:1 & 12.



You have Jesus resurrecting on the day of Rest. I believe it makes more sense to see Jesus resting on the day of Rest.

You missunderstood me I give three days and three night with the complete ending of the sabbath. Saturday Nisan 17th @ 6pm. Jesus arose after the starting of the new day and week, Sunday Nisan 18th 6:01pm. That would complete the three days and three nights.



You have Jesus entering Jerusalem on the 9th of Nissan. That misses the point of the 10th of nissan. The day of selecting the king, is the day of selecting the passover lamb and when we selected Jesus as our passover lamb and our king, that is the day we enter the promised land, Israel entered the promised land on the 10th of the first month. This day, entering Jerusalem on a donkey is the day that caused Israel to be destroyed in 70 AD. It is a big day. It makes more sense to me for Jesus to enter Jerusalem on the 10th of Nissan, especially, if that locates his resurrection on Sunday morning reflecting the apostolic practice of first day of the week.
You are right in the sense Jesus fulfilled these types, but lets remember the different accounts. On one account Jesus asked for a donkey on another two, so how would that workout. The only way is that Jesus entered the city more that once. I believe that has be stated before. So without going to great lenghts in my post here is a site that addressing this issue. Jesus enter Jerusalem (http://cortright.org/2entry.htm)One must also notice and address the issue with the women buying spices on different days.



To me, all those problems go away with a simple assumption, they travelled on Friday in John 12, prepared the sabbath meal on Friday afternoon, ate the sabbath meal after sunset (Sabbath day), rested sabbath day and then Jesus entered Jerusalem on Sunday.

Shalom

The assumation you make is that Jesus didn't enter the city on the sabbath. I don't fine any account that would back your assumation up.

Servant89
Feb 17th 2011, 11:40 PM
What you also must take into account is John 12:1 gives 6 days before passover. And the reason I put it that way is because Phish had issues with John 12:1 & 12.

Ok. I see no reason to believe you are wrong. You might be right after all. I do not see perfectly.


You misunderstood me, I give three days and three night with the complete ending of the Sabbath. Saturday Nisan 17th @ 6pm. Jesus arose after the starting of the new day and week, Sunday
Nisan 18th 6:01pm. That would complete the three days and three nights.

But that would place Jesus in the earth, buried, part of Wednesday (even a few seconds)_, fully Thursday, fully Friday, Fully Sabbath day and a few milliseconds on Sunday, That makes more than 3 days and 3 nights, even though it is a few seconds.


You are right in the sense Jesus fulfilled these types, but lets remember the different accounts. On one account Jesus asked for a donkey on another two, so how would that workout. The only way is that Jesus entered the city more that once. I believe that has be stated before. So without going to great lenghts in my post here is a site that addressing this issue. (Jesus enter Jerusalem (http://"http://www.cortright.org/2entry.htm')). One must also notice and address the issue with the women buying spices on different days.

I do not believe Jesus will enter Jerusalem on a donkey on a Sabbath day.


The assumption you make is that Jesus didn't enter the city on the Sabbath. I don't fine any account that would back your assumption up.

The law states clearly that no one was supposed to enter a city on Sabbath day and no one was supposed to put a burden on a donkey on Sabbath days.

Jer 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;
Jer 17:22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.
Jer 17:24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Shalom

Phish
Feb 18th 2011, 02:26 AM
What you also must take into account is John 12:1 gives 6 days before passover. And the reason I put it that way is because Phish had issues with John 12:1 & 12.



You missunderstood me I give three days and three night with the complete ending of the sabbath. Saturday Nisan 17th @ 6pm. Jesus arose after the starting of the new day and week, Sunday Nisan 18th 6:01pm. That would complete the three days and three nights.


You are right in the sense Jesus fulfilled these types, but lets remember the different accounts. On one account Jesus asked for a donkey on another two, so how would that workout. The only way is that Jesus entered the city more that once. I believe that has be stated before. So without going to great lenghts in my post here is a site that addressing this issue. (Jesus enter Jerusalem (http://"http://www.cortright.org/2entry.htm')). One must also notice and address the issue with the women buying spices on different days.



The assumation you make is that Jesus didn't enter the city on the sabbath. I don't fine any account that would back your assumation up.

I apologize, not trying to take issues with anything other than to be accurate. I would love to be a Wed Crucificion and maybe it is. I havent't been able to work much this week on it because I have had a bad case of pneunmonia.

Steffen
May 4th 2013, 05:27 PM
Hi, I am new here so please bear with me....This is a complete response to the question: Was Christ crucified on Friday, or was it actually Thursday? My response is from the Bible:

The “Feasts of the Lord” were commanded by God to be celebrated forever ( Leviticus 23). The Feasts of the Lord offer a Picture/Stick Diagram of God’s redemptive plan for the inhabitants of earth, for mankind, who He made in His Own image.

When Christ came the first time He fulfilled the first four Feasts: 1) Passover; 2) Unleavened Bread; 3) First Fruits; 4) Pentecost.

What is interesting about the feasts is that they offer a picture/stick diagram of Gods divine plan for the earth. After coming out of Egypt, God told Moses to change the 7th month (Abib) to the First month. The Jews were able to do this by creating two calendars, a religious calendar, as well their previous calendar that started from the beginning of time. To THIS DAY the Jews still keep both calendars.

Exodus 12:1-2 states "1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land
of Egypt, saying, 2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it
shall be the first month of the year to you." The first month had been
Tishri, but since they came out of the Egypt by the mighty hand of God, with
signs and wonders, during the 7th month, God wanted them to make this 7th
month Abib the First month. Passover was now to be celebrated forever on
the 14th day of the month (Abib). Also, the next day was the beginning of the
week of Unleavened Bread, starting on the 15th and going through the21st.
The 15th and the 21st were also to be "Holy Convocations" or "High Sabbath"
days. Additionally the 17th was to be the celebration of the "Firstfruits".
The Jews celebrated more than 52 Sabbaths a year. This was due to the
feasts, in which they celebrated extra Sabbaths on other days of the week,
other than Saturday's, called "Holy Convocations" or "High Sabbaths". They
celebrated approximately 58 Sabbaths a year.


Abib
14
Thur
Pass-
over

15
Fr.
High
Sabbath
(Beginning of the feast
Unleavened bread)

16
Sat.
Sabbath

17
Sunday
First Fruits

18
Monday

19
Tuesday

20 Wednesday

21
High Sabbath
(End of the Feast of Unleavened Bread)


By looking at this picture of the Lords feasts we can see that Christ had to
die on the 14th (Passover) and be raised on the 17th (Firstfruits).

The New Testament tells us that Jesus Christ IS:
1) Our Passover (1 Cor 5:7) Hebrews 11:28
2) Our Unleavened Bread (1 Cor 5:7, 8)
3) Our Firstfruits ( 1 Cor 15:20,23)


To put this into perspective, Christ actually died on the cross on the 14th
of Abib and resurrected on the 17th of Abib. The 14th was a Thursday (not a
Friday), and the 17th was a Sunday. We know that He resurrected from the dead on Sunday because the Bible tells us that he arose from the dead on the first day of the week (Sunday). [Matt 28:1, Mark 16:2, Mark 16:9, Luke 24:1,John 20:1, John 20:19] . The confusion of the day of Christ's death (Good Friday) comes from the misunderstanding in
regards to the Holy Convocations or High Sabbaths. In Luke 24:54 when they
refer to the Sabbath, they are actually referring to the "High Sabbath" on
the 15th, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. To check this out
go to John 19:31 where it is explained in detail that this Sabbath was a
"High Day"----


How did the Jews reckon time in Ancient Israel? How do Jews reckon time today?

How did the Jews reckon time in Ancient Israel? How do Jews reckon time today?

If I was in Israel today, and went to visit a Jewish friend, and spent any amount of time with them, they would consider that I had spent the “day” with them.

To see how the Jews reckoned time in the New Testament, lets look at Acts Chapter 7, where we read:

30. And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,

When Cornelius received the vision, it was at the 9th hour, or 3:00 P.M. in the afternoon.

What did that four days consist of? Would that same amount of time (4 days) be used by us (non-Jews) to reckon the same amount of time?

The first day:
Approximately 3 hours on the road during the first day
& One night, camped on the roadside (12 hours)

The second day:
If they left at 6:00 A.M. the next day, and arrived at Joppa at Noon, = 6 hours
They spent the rest of the day with Peter in Joppa=6 hours

They spent that night with Peter in Joppa= 12 hours.


They awoke the next morning, at 6:00 A.M. and traveled to Caessaria, probably arriving there at about 2:00 to 3:00 P.M. (Based upon the amount of time it took them to initially travel from Caessaria to Joppa)


The way that I as a non-Jew would look at the above time frame is 3 days, not 4 days.

What did Jesus prophesy about His own resurrection from the dead?
40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. (Matthew 12:40-41)



Also, to add to the confusion, Jewish time always starts at 6:00 P.M. and extends to the next day at 6:00 P.M. The Jews also have two evenings. One at 3:00 P.M. (the time of the "evening sacrifice) and then at 6:00 P.M (the beginning of the next day, that starts at evening). Every day at 3:00 P.M. came the evening sacrifice (Their first sacrifice was at 9:00 A.m., the 3rd hour).


The Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke use JEWISH TIME, while the Gospel of John uses ROMAN TIME (like ours, where the day starts at 12 midnight).


Christ was crucified on the cross at 9:00 A.M. If we look at John 19:14 and it
indicates that at the 6th hour [6:00 A.M. Roman time] that Jesus was
standing before Pilate to be crucified. Then when we look at Mark 15:25 and we see that he was crucified at the 3rd hour (9:00 A.M. Roman time) and died on the cross for us at 3:00 P.M. (the ninth hour- see Matthew 27:46 & Mark15:33 & Luke 23:44). This all happened on the day of Passover, just like all of the other Passover sacrifices taking place at 9:00 A.M. (the morning sacrifice) and 3:00 P.M. (the evening sacrifice) for one thousand five hundred years (after the original Passover sacrifice in Egypt)-only this was the final Passover sacrifice-once and for all! And they always sacrificed a male lamb, without blemish or spot at the 9th hour. Christ was our Lamb of God, without sin (blemish or spot) who was the final sacrifice for us, who was sacrificed on the cross at the 3rd hour (9:00 A.M.) and gave up the ghost (died) at the 9th hour (3:00 P.M). What a picture all of the sacrifices were before, in anticipation of the final sacrifice!


On the 14th of Abib [Thursday] Jesus was crucified at 9:00 A.M.gave up the Ghost at 3:00 P.M., and Jesus was placed in the Sepulchre before evening = 1 day

On the 15th of Abib [Friday](starting at 6:00 P.M.) Jesus body was in the Tomb from 6:00 P.M. to 6:00 A.M. = 1 night

On the 15th of Abib [Friday] (starting at 6:00 A.M.) Jesus body was in the Tomb from 6:00 AM to 6:00 P.m= 1 day

On the 16th of Abib [Saturday] Jesus body was in the tomb from 6:00 P.M. to 6:00 A.M. = 1 night

On the 16th of Abib [Saturday] Jesus body was in the tomb from 6:00 A.M. to 6:00 P.M. = 1 day

On the 17th of Abib [Sunday} Jesus body was in the tomb from 6:00 P.M. until 6:00 A.M. = 1 night


ACCORDING TO JEWISH TIME, JESUS WAS IN THE BELLY OF THE EARTH FOR 3 DAYS AND 3 NIGHTS!



Please refer to Leviticus 23:5-16.
5. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. 6. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 8. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 9. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 10. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11. And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12. And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord. 13. And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. 14. And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 15. And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16. Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord.


Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, the day of the feast of Firstfruits. Pentecost occurred 50 days after the feast of Firstfruits (NOT THE FEAST OF THE PASSOVER) that was on a SUNDAY, the same day that the wave offering occurred. There is much confusion about the day of Pentecost occurring 50 days after the Passover (Crucifixion). But the correct answer is that Pentecost occurred 50 days after the Resurection, and is found in Leviticus 23:11 that tells us the Firstfruits were waived to the Lord (a wave offering). (Lev 23:5-16) (Deuteronomy 16:9-12) (Acts 2.1) & (1 Cor 15.20-23)

Conclusion: Jesus died on Abib 14 which is the Passover day, the day on which the passover lamb was COMMANDED TO BE KILLED FOREVER, BY THE LORD. He died before the High Holy day, the Extra Sabbath day, which started in the evening at 6:00 pm. Then Jesus returned to life - resurrected - on the day on which Noah's ark rested on Mount Ararat – Abib 17. Hebrews 4 tells us that rest is also a symbol of one's rest in God because we believe in Jesus Christ.

Adam and Eve believed God, and in the Seed of the Woman (women do not have “seed”, men have “seed), the the coming Messiah, that would one day bruise the head of the Serpent (Satan). All those before the cross that were saved believed in the coming Messiah, the “Seed of the Woman,” who would be bruised on the heel by the Serpent, yet the serpent would be bruised on it’s head by Jesus Christ. The venom of a serpent is located in it’s head

15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Only in the form of captial punishment of crucifixion is the heel bruised. The person on the cross has to continually push against the cross with his heel (the heel nailed closest to the cross) continously in order to be able to breath. In regards to bruising the head of the Serpent (Satan)—the poison of the serpent is in it’s head- when Jesus Christ paid for our sin debt, he bruised the head of Satan, neutralizing his power. Jesus Christ has made it possible for all those before the cross, and all of us after the cross, to be forgiven of our sin. He did this by becoming a sinless substitute, the perfect man, the God man, who knew no sin, who became sin for all humanity, from the beginning of time to the end of time. Yet, only those that believe in Jesus Christ (the Seed of the woman), and have accepted His Work on the cross will have their sins forgiven, and spend eternal life with Him. All others will eventually be cast in the Lake of Fire, that was created for Satan and his demons (fallen angels).

There are a total of 7 Biblical Feasts and Jesus fulfilled the following feasts at His first coming:

When Christ came the first time He fulfilled the first four Spring Feasts:

1) Passover speaks of REDEMPTION. Messiah, Jesus, the Passover Lamb has been slain for us!!
2) Unleavened Bread speaks of SANCTIFICATION. He has set us apart. His body would not decay in the grave.
3) Firstfruits speaks of RESURRECTION. Death could not hold her foe. On the third day, Jesus rose trimphantly from the grave.
4) The Feast of Weeks speaks of ORIGINATION. The coming of the Holy Spirit inaugurated the New Covenant and Church Age which the Messiah instituted in the Upper Room (Mt. 26:28-29). The middle wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles has been broken down. From the two, the Lord is calling out the Church, which is His body.

Each major event of the Messiah’s first coming occured on the precise date of the appropriate Jewish Holiday. Each of the three major events to be associated with His second coming will, likewise, fall on the appropriate Jewish holiday. Those three reasts—Trumpet, the Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles---unerringly point to the rapture of the Church and judgment of the wicked, the salvation of Israel, and the establishment of the messianic Kingdom, the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ upon this earth, who will rule with a Rod Iron.

rstrats
Jan 24th 2016, 12:15 PM
Steffen (who isn't here anymore),
re: " We know that He resurrected from the dead on Sunday because the Bible tells us that he arose from the dead on the first day of the week (Sunday). [Matt 28:1, Mark 16:2, Mark 16:9, Luke 24:1,John 20:1, John 20:19]..."

Actually, only Mark 16:9 says that the resurrection took place on the 1st of the week, and even that scripture is questioned by scholars with regard to its authenticity.



re: "Christ had to die on the 14th (Passover) and be raised on the 17th (Firstfruits)."

I don't see how Firstfruits can be used to say that the resurrection took place on Firstfruits.

CurtTN
Jan 25th 2016, 03:29 AM
I agree with you, It really is starting to seem like you have to sqeeze a Wenesday Crucificion to make it work, It just doesn't fall in nicely like you say. It would be wrong to discount other scripture just to make the one scripture work that started this whole mess in the first place Matt 12:40 (three days and three nights) I really think there has to be another answer.

For reasons you sited above and at least one scripture Matt 26:1 I would have to say its just not working.

Most of the discussions have seemed to treat days as a modern day (Midnight to midnight) but the Jewish day was sundown to sundown. The second problem is that most people want to assume that Jesus rose at sunrise, but scripture does not say that, only that the women went there at sunrise. The important thing to remember is that either Jesus lied or He must be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. No if's and's or but's. So what do we Know.

John tells us that Jesus and the disciples ate their meal on the day of preparation which is the day before the Passover. Had this actually been the Passover, the Jews would not have been able to crucify Him or touch His dead body. This is why the two thieves had their legs broken, so they would die and be taken down before sundown (start of Passover). Jesus goes in the tomb just before sundown and so if you count 3 nights and three days from this point, He is risen just after sundown on What the Jews would have called the first day of the week but we would call it Saturday evening. In any even it is proven because the women come to the tomb some hours later and He is not there, He is risen and so when we lay this out on a calendar and UNDERSTANDING the difference between the Jewish day and our modern day, Jesus went into the tomb on what we would call Wednesday evening.

Next you might ask why the women waited until Sunday morning to come to the tomb? Surely they could have anointed the body the next day? Actually no they could not. The next day was Passover and they could not touch a dead body and be clean, As pointed out earlier in other posts the first day of unleavened bread is a High Holy Sabbath and they could not touch a dead body then either. The third day is the weekly Sabbath and they could not touch a dead body then either. So the women were prevented from going to the tomb for three full 24 hour days.

Now here is the most marvelous thing about this information. God planned it all so that in the fullness of time God sent His son to earth and to the cross on the exact year when the Passover would occur two days before the weekly Sabbath so that Jesus would have 3 days and 3 nights uninterrupted in the grave.

Last question is Why?

CurtTN
Jan 25th 2016, 03:55 AM
Hi, I am new here so please bear with me....This is a complete response to the question: Was Christ crucified on Friday, or was it actually Thursday? My response is from the Bible:



On the 14th of Abib [Thursday] Jesus was crucified at 9:00 A.M.gave up the Ghost at 3:00 P.M., and Jesus was placed in the Sepulchre before evening = 1 day

On the 15th of Abib [Friday](starting at 6:00 P.M.) Jesus body was in the Tomb from 6:00 P.M. to 6:00 A.M. = 1 night

On the 15th of Abib [Friday] (starting at 6:00 A.M.) Jesus body was in the Tomb from 6:00 AM to 6:00 P.m= 1 day

On the 16th of Abib [Saturday] Jesus body was in the tomb from 6:00 P.M. to 6:00 A.M. = 1 night

On the 16th of Abib [Saturday] Jesus body was in the tomb from 6:00 A.M. to 6:00 P.M. = 1 day

On the 17th of Abib [Sunday} Jesus body was in the tomb from 6:00 P.M. until 6:00 A.M. = 1 night


ACCORDING TO JEWISH TIME, JESUS WAS IN THE BELLY OF THE EARTH FOR 3 DAYS AND 3 NIGHTS!

Stephen: basically a very good post but two mistakes. first you can't count the day of Jesus crucifixion as the first day because it is on;ly a few minutes. Remember Jesus says He is in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights not dead for that time. Even though He is confirmed dead at 3 PM Joseph has to petition Pilot for the body and Pilot had to wait to get confirmation and so those burying Him had to race against the sun and had no time to annoint the body as was custom. So the count actually starts with the first evening which puts the crucifixion on Wed. not Thursday.

Second, when the women got to the tomb (in one account it was still dark) He was not there and if you count from Wed. night we have Jesus rising just after sundown on what we would call Sat but the Jews would call Sunday because their day began at sundown.

So to your point, Jesus is in the tomb for the 14th (sundown to sundown), the 15th (sundown to sundown), and the 16th (sundown to sundown), and rises on the 17th just after sundown which is the start of the Jewish day.
.

Tony P
Jan 25th 2016, 04:54 AM
Stephen: basically a very good post but two mistakes. first you can't count the day of Jesus crucifixion as the first day because it is on;ly a few minutes. Remember Jesus says He is in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights not dead for that time. Even though He is confirmed dead at 3 PM Joseph has to petition Pilot for the body and Pilot had to wait to get confirmation and so those burying Him had to race against the sun and had no time to annoint the body as was custom. So the count actually starts with the first evening which puts the crucifixion on Wed. not Thursday.

Second, when the women got to the tomb (in one account it was still dark) He was not there and if you count from Wed. night we have Jesus rising just after sundown on what we would call Sat but the Jews would call Sunday because their day began at sundown.

So to your point, Jesus is in the tomb for the 14th (sundown to sundown), the 15th (sundown to sundown), and the 16th (sundown to sundown), and rises on the 17th just after sundown which is the start of the Jewish day.
.

I think Jesus said he would be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. This began as soon as he died, not when he was buried. Throughout the Bible, any part of a day was counted. Today is day one. Tomorrow is the second day etc. So the three hours of daylight after his death would count to the people of that era. There are many examples of this being the way years of kings were counted as well. As I learned from my genealogy work. Also, there is no reference in scripture that Jesus rose after sunset Saturday. The guards were told to say that they fell asleep when the angel rolled the stone away. It was during the night sometime. Even if Jesus rose just after sunset, it would still count as a night. This makes Thursday the only possibility. If Jesus was crucified on Wed, there would four nights. Wed, Thurs, Fri, Sat.

Passover could not have been on Wed in 33 AD. Thursday or Friday are the only possible days for the 33 AD Passover. My research shows Passover was on Thursday that year. We know this was the year Jesus was crucified because the worldwide darkness was recorded by Phlegen. The earthquake that damaged the Temple was also recorded in Jewish records for 33 AD.

John recorded that Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem five days before Passover. If Passover was on Wed, that would Jesus triumphal entry on Saturday, the Sabbath. This would be a violation of the law of Moses. Sat, Sun, Mon, Tues, Wed. Five days. This is further evidence that Wed could not be the day of the Passover crucifixion.

CurtTN
Jan 25th 2016, 11:18 PM
I think Jesus said he would be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. This began as soon as he died, not when he was buried. Throughout the Bible, any part of a day was counted. Today is day one. Tomorrow is the second day etc. So the three hours of daylight after his death would count to the people of that era. There are many examples of this being the way years of kings were counted as well. As I learned from my genealogy work. Also, there is no reference in scripture that Jesus rose after sunset Saturday. The guards were told to say that they fell asleep when the angel rolled the stone away. It was during the night sometime. Even if Jesus rose just after sunset, it would still count as a night. This makes Thursday the only possibility. If Jesus was crucified on Wed, there would four nights. Wed, Thurs, Fri, Sat.

If you wish to discount Jesus words and accept tradition you might as well use Friday because your argument is just what they use. "Any part of a day counts as a day". Jesus said 3 days and 3 nights which is three 24 hour days. 1 day plus 1 night = 24 hours. Anything else is just an unsupported interpretation. The fact that in other perts of the bible a "day is counted differently does not change Jesus specific words. When you change His words or interpret them differently than he spake them, you are saying He misspoke or lied. You also can't seem to count in Jewish days. The Jewish day begins at sunset and so it is true that Jesus went into the tomb just before sundown of Wed. this now makes the first evening or night Thursday night in Jewish days. Therefore the first night is Thursday night followed by the first day which is Thursday daytime. Second is Friday and third is Sat, When Jesus arises just at sundown it is now Sunday. To get 3 full days and nights in the earth Jesus has to enter the tomb just before sundown on Wed.


Passover could not have been on Wed in 33 AD. Thursday or Friday are the only possible days for the 33 AD Passover. My research shows Passover was on Thursday that year. We know this was the year Jesus was crucified because the worldwide darkness was recorded by Phlegen. The earthquake that damaged the Temple was also recorded in Jewish records for 33 AD.

I did not say Passover was Wed. I said Wed. was the preparation day before Passover. You make my point. Jews could not touch a dead body or crucify a person on Passover so it had to be the day before.


John recorded that Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem five days before Passover. If Passover was on Wed, that would Jesus triumphal entry on Saturday, the Sabbath. This would be a violation of the law of Moses. Sat, Sun, Mon, Tues, Wed. Five days. This is further evidence that Wed could not be the day of the Passover crucifixion.

See above

Tony P
Jan 26th 2016, 03:17 AM
If you wish to discount Jesus words and accept tradition you might as well use Friday because your argument is just what they use. "Any part of a day counts as a day". Jesus said 3 days and 3 nights which is three 24 hour days. 1 day plus 1 night = 24 hours. Anything else is just an unsupported interpretation. The fact that in other perts of the bible a "day is counted differently does not change Jesus specific words. When you change His words or interpret them differently than he spake them, you are saying He misspoke or lied. You also can't seem to count in Jewish days. The Jewish day begins at sunset and so it is true that Jesus went into the tomb just before sundown of Wed. this now makes the first evening or night Thursday night in Jewish days. Therefore the first night is Thursday night followed by the first day which is Thursday daytime. Second is Friday and third is Sat, When Jesus arises just at sundown it is now Sunday. To get 3 full days and nights in the earth Jesus has to enter the tomb just before sundown on Wed.

Jesus did not misspeak or lie. I know exactly what a Jewish day is. I have not seen ONE single instance of a day being a 24 hour period as we view it today. Not in any scripture or any of the thousands of other documents of that era. Religious or secular. Jesus wasn't in modern America. The way we view a "day" is itself a tradition that has changed since the writing of the Bible. To apply our changed tradition to the Bible will certainly lead to our misunderstanding. You say FULL days and nights. The Bible doesn't say this. You have added the word "FULL." Thereby inserting your own stumbling block.

I see you make the claim that Jesus rose at sunset on Saturday. Where is the evidence to support your claim? It isn't in the Bible. You have to hold this view in order to adjust the historical record to "fit" your modern tradition of a day. There is no evidence for a sunset resurrection. This is historical gymnastics to fit a lack of historical knowledge. If Jesus died at 3:00 pm on Wed. If he was resurrected at sunset on Sat, that would be after three days, or on the fourth day. By claiming this, you make Jesus' own claim of being raised "ON" the third day, void. Jesus did not say "in the tomb" three days and three nights. He said "in the heart of the earth." This began at death, not burial.

Furthermore, you must also disregard the fact that Jesus' triumphal entry could not have been on a Sabbath, per Jewish law.

Let's look at Jesus' own reckoning of time. Luke 13:32 "“Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’"

Today is always day one. One day from now is always the second day. Two days from now is always the third day, and so on. This is how Jesus himself reckoned time. The fifth day before Wed was most certainly the Sabbath. Not possible for Jesus' triumphal entry. We may see tomorrow as one day from now, but in the Bible it is always the second day.

John 1:39 "He said to them, “Come and see.” They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour)."

The tenth hour of the day was 4:00 pm. This was less daytime than than Jesus' 3:00 pm crucifixion. Yet they said they spent "the day" with him. This is routine throughout history. Jesus did not give time with a stop watch. They still used sun dials. Three days and three nights, in no way shape or form, refers to exactly 72 hours. Believing this is completely unsupported by scripture and history. This is a modern tradition which has no bearing whatsoever on the 1st century. We cannot impose our modern concepts on the Bible and expect to understand it. Whether their method of time keeping makes sense to us today, is irrelevant. That is how they reckoned time in those days.

A Wednesday crucifixion is just as impossible as a Friday crucifixion. Thursday is the only possibility. From Thursday at 3:00 pm until pre-dawn Sunday morning is, by all Jewish Biblical measure, three days and three nights. Thursday, Thursday night. Friday, Friday night. Saturday, Saturday night. Once the sun rose on Sunday, he would have been in the fourth day. The very fact that Jesus rose in the pre-dawn hours of Sunday morning further proves his method of keeping time.

percho
Jan 26th 2016, 06:31 AM
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. John 11:9

Aristarkos
Jan 26th 2016, 07:38 AM
Appendix 156 of the Companion Bible deals with this subject, it's worth reading. I've tried to attache it to this post, I hope it works.

Aristarkos

Note: Appendix 156 starts at the bottom of page 1.
Note 2: I saw to late I missed the last page in the attachement, you need to download app156-complete.pdf.

BrianW
Jan 26th 2016, 01:28 PM
Mod Note: Per the rules Non-Christians are allowed to post only in the area's permitted to them. Bible Chat is not one of those area's so I've moved rstrats posts and the replies to him to a new thread in Areopagus.

You can find the thread here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/266204-rstrats?p=3282417#post3282417

Tony P
Jan 26th 2016, 10:14 PM
Appendix 156 of the Companion Bible deals with this subject, it's worth reading. I've tried to attache it to this post, I hope it works.

Aristarkos

Note: Appendix 156 starts at the bottom of page 1.
Note 2: I saw to late I missed the last page in the attachement, you need to download app156-complete.pdf.

I don't see the year of crucifixion mentioned in this article. I take a couple of issues with the findings in the article, not you personally. One, they state that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover the night before he was crucified. They failed to understand the split kingdom of Israel. The northern tribes reckoned time differently than Judah. Rather than admit they do not understand, they call Jesus a liar. Two, they fail to recognize how days are counted in scripture. They use modern methods. Three, they count Passover on Nisan 15. The Bible clearly states Nisan 14. Although, it is the evening of Nisan 14, which becomes Nisan 15. This debate still rages today in Judaism. Four, their days of the week do not match Nisan 33 AD. I don't know what year they assume. Five, they claim a sunset resurrection. A man made myth wholly unsupported by scripture.

This is just creative artwork needed to impose ignorance on the scriptures rather than admit they cannot figure out how days are counted. It isn't difficult. There are plenty of example in scripture. People just wont accept them.

It would be far better to say "I don't understand" than to make up fictional accounts. Understanding the truth cannot be forced. The above list is a good example of trying to force our will into the scripture. One falsehood leads to another until they have to "create" a sunset resurrection. This undermines Jesus' own words when he says he will be raised ON the third day. Their theory puts the resurrection after the third day, or the fourth day. Again, the falsehoods grow out of a profound misunderstanding from the very beginning. If someone cannot make sense of scripture, fine. But, don't resort to imaginative delusions to confuse others.

CurtTN
Jan 27th 2016, 03:22 AM
Jesus did not misspeak or lie. I know exactly what a Jewish day is. I have not seen ONE single instance of a day being a 24 hour period as we view it today. Not in any scripture or any of the thousands of other documents of that era. Religious or secular. Jesus wasn't in modern America. The way we view a "day" is itself a tradition that has changed since the writing of the Bible. To apply our changed tradition to the Bible will certainly lead to our misunderstanding. You say FULL days and nights. The Bible doesn't say this. You have added the word "FULL." Thereby inserting your own stumbling block.

I see you make the claim that Jesus rose at sunset on Saturday. Where is the evidence to support your claim? It isn't in the Bible. You have to hold this view in order to adjust the historical record to "fit" your modern tradition of a day. There is no evidence for a sunset resurrection. This is historical gymnastics to fit a lack of historical knowledge. If Jesus died at 3:00 pm on Wed. If he was resurrected at sunset on Sat, that would be after three days, or on the fourth day. By claiming this, you make Jesus' own claim of being raised "ON" the third day, void. Jesus did not say "in the tomb" three days and three nights. He said "in the heart of the earth." This began at death, not burial.

Furthermore, you must also disregard the fact that Jesus' triumphal entry could not have been on a Sabbath, per Jewish law.

Let's look at Jesus' own reckoning of time. Luke 13:32 "“Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’"

Today is always day one. One day from now is always the second day. Two days from now is always the third day, and so on. This is how Jesus himself reckoned time. The fifth day before Wed was most certainly the Sabbath. Not possible for Jesus' triumphal entry. We may see tomorrow as one day from now, but in the Bible it is always the second day.

John 1:39 "He said to them, “Come and see.” They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour)."

The tenth hour of the day was 4:00 pm. This was less daytime than than Jesus' 3:00 pm crucifixion. Yet they said they spent "the day" with him. This is routine throughout history. Jesus did not give time with a stop watch. They still used sun dials. Three days and three nights, in no way shape or form, refers to exactly 72 hours. Believing this is completely unsupported by scripture and history. This is a modern tradition which has no bearing whatsoever on the 1st century. We cannot impose our modern concepts on the Bible and expect to understand it. Whether their method of time keeping makes sense to us today, is irrelevant. That is how they reckoned time in those days.

A Wednesday crucifixion is just as impossible as a Friday crucifixion. Thursday is the only possibility. From Thursday at 3:00 pm until pre-dawn Sunday morning is, by all Jewish Biblical measure, three days and three nights. Thursday, Thursday night. Friday, Friday night. Saturday, Saturday night. Once the sun rose on Sunday, he would have been in the fourth day. The very fact that Jesus rose in the pre-dawn hours of Sunday morning further proves his method of keeping time.

If you do not consider the specificity of 3 days and 3 nights as meaning 3- 24 hour days then we have no basis for discussion.

CurtTN
Jan 27th 2016, 03:23 AM
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. John 11:9

I assume that also means 12 hours in the night where one might stumble.

percho
Jan 27th 2016, 05:05 AM
I assume that also means 12 hours in the night where one might stumble.

Me thinks so. After all it was the Son of God who made the statement.

Aristarkos
Jan 27th 2016, 08:06 AM
But, don't resort to imaginative delusions to confuse others.

Those are harsh words my friend, this is a very complicated subject we're dealing with. I've got another link for you that goes really into detail about this subject. I can't guarantee you'll agree with their conclusions, but it is good reading.

http://www.ccg.org/weblibs/study-papers/p159.html

Aristarkos

watchinginawe
Jan 27th 2016, 03:47 PM
Those are harsh words my friend, this is a very complicated subject we're dealing with. I've got another link for you that goes really into detail about this subject. I can't guarantee you'll agree with their conclusions, but it is good reading.

http://www.ccg.org/weblibs/study-papers/p159.html

Aristarkos

A lot of times in these discussions the words get weird in my opinion. Over the years, I have even heard the discussion described as a choice between believing on the "real" Jesus and the pagan substitute. The root of this of course is in the "glorying" of being right, of being of the ones who aren't "deceived". Ultimately, of being among those who have discerned the truth and who also worship on the particular day and thus fulfilling one of the signs that they are in the one true and only church. That kind of stuff. So this can get passioned pretty quickly.

So the document you offered (http://www.ccg.org/weblibs/study-papers/p159.html) forces the following conclusions:

"It is physically impossible for Christ to have been crucified on a Friday and been resurrected on a Sunday and fulfil the sign of Jonah and the Messianic prophecies.
...
Christ was crucified on a Wednesday and resurrected on a Saturday evening, from nightfall. The Bible narrative cannot fit any other way and accord with, and fulfil all prophecies and texts."

Thus, the narratives don't mean what they indicate, that is branded "impossible". And then what simply cannot follow from the narratives, a Wednesday crucifixion and a Saturday evening resurrection, must be the truth.

Let's review the document link now in accordance to my introduction. The first thing I see is a link to the left which states: "Sabbath Messages". :hmm: I already know the answer, but now wonder if you offer this document as a member of this organization or someone merely influenced by the temptation of a kind of esotericism? On to the document...

Well, that didn't take long. Let's just start with this (http://www.ccg.org/english/S/a1.html) in the huge statement of faith to see where you might agree or not with this organization.


The understanding of whom we worship is also demonstrated by two signs which together with the understanding of the nature of God form the basis of the sealing of the elect. The two signs are:

1. The Sabbath (from Ex. 20:8,10,11; Deut. 5:12). The Sabbath is the sign between us and God who makes us holy (Ex. 31:12-14); and
2. The Passover. The Passover is a sign or seal where, from Exodus 13:9,16, the Passover, including the Feast of Unleavened Bread, is the sign of the law of the Lord (Deut. 6:8) and of His redemption of Israel (Deut. 6:10) which, from the New Testament, extends to all those in Christ (Rom. 9:6, 11:25-26).

These signs of the law, the Sabbath and Passover, are specifically intended to guard against idolatry (Deut. 11:16). These two signs are the seal on the hand and the forehead of the Lord's elect and, with the Holy Spirit, will form the basis of the sealing of the 144,000 of the last days in Revelation 7:3. They lead into the rest of the Holy Days.

Is that how you see things? Note that worship on the Saturday Sabbath is fine. It is the exclusiveness of the above statement where it begins to go contrary to the common beliefs of those who participate in these forums. Also, the organization is not Trinitarian either.

Thus, in my opinion, doctrines like the Wednesday crucifixion and Saturday resurrection are used to separate those in that kind of organization from the rest of Christianity, by declaring that the rest of Christianity is Babylon, or deceived paganism, or whatever. This is very effective with folks too, as Herbert Armstrong demonstrated. What is the underlying message to folks like me then in this doctrine being discussed, and then the rest of the boatload to come? "Come out of her". No way am I going "into" that, or "out of" Christ. :no:

Tony P
Jan 27th 2016, 05:43 PM
Those are harsh words my friend, this is a very complicated subject we're dealing with. I've got another link for you that goes really into detail about this subject. I can't guarantee you'll agree with their conclusions, but it is good reading.

http://www.ccg.org/weblibs/study-papers/p159.html

Aristarkos

Yes they were harsh. I hope you don't feel as though they were directed toward you in any way. I was only directing my comments toward the article.

Thank you for this additional article. It is quite helpful and actually proves my point. They correctly noted how the 30 AD theory was rooted in a misinterpretation of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. There is no possibility that Jesus was crucified in 30 AD. That was six months into his ministry. John the Baptist stated his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius. Luke 3:1. His 15th year was Sept 18, 28 - Sept 18, 29 AD. I know this from researching the historical records. There is no way to fit John's ministry, which began before Jesus, and the three Passovers that Jesus attended in the Gospels, into that short of a time. There is a mystery in the Jewish Talmud about strange occurrences that began 40 years before the Temple was destroyed. The Temple was destroyed in 70 AD before the day of Atonement. This lines up exactly with all the research I have done to pinpoint the beginning of Jesus' ministry. According to my research, Jesus was likely baptized by John on Elul 1, 29 AD and then Jesus began his ministry on Tishri 15, 29 AD. The day of Atonement mystery began in 30 AD, immediately after Jesus revealed himself as the Son of Man. No way to fit the Gospels into a six month period.

They list Thursday, Nisan 14, 33 AD. This is the very day Jesus was crucified. I can prove it even outside of the Bible, from historical records.

Matthew 27:45, 51 “Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land...Then, behold, the veil of the Temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split”

A Greek historian named Phlegon Trallianus wrote a 16 volume history on the Olympiads during the reign of emperor Hadrian. This work was completed in 137 AD. Unfortunately, his original writing has been largely lost to history. However, several other historians have referenced his work. One of them was Eusebius of Caesarea. In his work, Chronicle, he sites Phelgon's 13th volume of Olympiads, which states:

“In the fourth year, however, of the 202nd Olympiad, a failure of the sun happened, greater and more excellent than any that had happened before it; at the sixth hour, day turned into night, so that stars were seen in the sky, and an earthquake in Bithynia toppled many buildings in the city of Nicaea.” (1)

Nicaea is more than a 1000 miles from Jerusalem. Apparently, both the failure of the sun and the earthquake were experienced by a large swath of the earth. The fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad is July 1, 32 to July 1, 33 AD. It is well documented that Jesus was crucified at Passover. The only Passover during this year was in the spring of 33 AD.

Additionally, the earthquake was recorded in the Israel Exploration Journal. They recorded:

33 AD Judea, Jerusalem: slight. Damage to the Temple. R; W

These events are well attested in numerous historical records. This journal includes damage to the Temple, just as Matthew recorded. I have yet to find a single error recorded by the eye witnesses to history in the New Testament.

Therefore, the article does correctly list the day and date for Passover in 33 AD. It was a Thursday. 33 AD also fits perfectly with the historical dates given to us by Luke for the beginning of Jesus ministry. The three Passovers in the Gospels fit precisely in the historical record.

Lastly, we can rule out any possibility of a Wednesday Passover crucifixion just by looking at the Triumphal entry of Jesus. According to John 12, the Triumphal entry was 5 days before Passover. Based on every single method of counting days in the Bible, this would have been on the Sabbath. Remember, they always counted time this way: Today, Tomorrow, the third day, and son on. Five days from Wed was the Sabbath. Jesus would not have broken the law of Moses to make his Triumphal entry. This wasn't one of the additional ridiculous Pharisee laws, it is in scripture. Read the accounts of Jesus' Triumphal entry. They do not record a rebuke for breaking the Sabbath. It wasn't the Sabbath. It was Sunday.

Although, I am wrong for my harshness, I just get tired of all the misinformation about Jesus. The Bible isn't rocket science. A thorough examination of history proves the Bible correct over and over. It just seems to me that, when trying to figure out time line for Jesus, once we get to the point where we have to adopt a Saturday evening resurrection, some red flags would go up in our minds. "Hey, Something isn't right here." There is nothing in the Gospels to suggest a Saturday evening resurrection. The whole problem originates with a simple misunderstanding of culture in the ancient world and the way they counted time. They wrote the Bible in their time, not ours. We cannot apply a strict interpretation of three 24 hour periods which would be laughable to the people of that era. They didn't even have clocks. The precise and uptight go go go world we live in today is like night and day to that era. We must adjust to understand their mindset, not adjust the Bible to fit ours.

Aristarkos
Jan 27th 2016, 06:58 PM
@Tony P.,

Thank you very much for your elaborated answer. I did not take it personal at all, and even if I did, years of discussing the bible with all kinds of people gave me a thick skin. Don't be to hard on yourself about your harshness, we've all been there I'm sure. Faith gives heated discussions, it's the nature of the beast. (Awkward word in this context, I mean nothing by it.)

I was always under the impression that our date was 4 years of because of a mistake made in the past. I never considered this to much of a problem. I believe that the Scriptures are right in its numbers no matter what label we humans stick on it. So if we really live in 2016 or 2012 makes no difference to my age nor to what happened yesterday or yesteryear. The chronology in the Scriptures is quite complicated and small errors are easily made.

For instance here:

http://www.hebroots.com/lul7_8.html

They calculate that between Adam and Christ is exactly 4000 years. (I don't believe their 7000 year theory BTW) I'm sure I read somewhere that this calculation - that has been made by many over the years - has this 4 year error in it but I can't find it anymore. So that's why I always was under the impression the year 33AD, the year the Lord got crucified actually should be labeled 29AD.

Some people believe there are actually two time lines in the Scriptures, a Divine one - that stops counting in the Lo-Ammi periods - and a human one that counts continuously. Others say this is nonsense and either way is fine by me.

Another example, I'm convinced God made a purpose of the aions, in which he works out his plan with creation in a set number of aions. To others this is so preposterous, they wont even discuss it. I sometimes have the feeling that discussing the Scriptures is like two colorblind people that have a different kind of colorblindness. How is one going to convince the other what color they talk about? Try to imagine that conversation and tell me it didn't put a smile on your face.

Like I've said I've learned to be very tolerant over the years and I respect peoples believes about the Scriptures whether I agree or not. Who of us can say he has the absolute truth and knowledge? I for sure don't.

Aristarkos

Tony P
Jan 27th 2016, 08:12 PM
@Tony P.,

Thank you very much for your elaborated answer. I did not take it personal at all, and even if I did, years of discussing the bible with all kinds of people gave me a thick skin. Don't be to hard on yourself about your harshness, we've all been there I'm sure. Faith gives heated discussions, it's the nature of the beast. (Awkward word in this context, I mean nothing by it.)

I was always under the impression that our date was 4 years of because of a mistake made in the past. I never considered this to much of a problem. I believe that the Scriptures are right in its numbers no matter what label we humans stick on it. So if we really live in 2016 or 2012 makes no difference to my age nor to what happened yesterday or yesteryear. The chronology in the Scriptures is quite complicated and small errors are easily made.

For instance here:

http://www.hebroots.com/lul7_8.html

They calculate that between Adam and Christ is exactly 4000 years. (I don't believe their 7000 year theory BTW) I'm sure I read somewhere that this calculation - that has been made by many over the years - has this 4 year error in it but I can't find it anymore. So that's why I always was under the impression the year 33AD, the year the Lord got crucified actually should be labeled 29AD.

Some people believe there are actually two time lines in the Scriptures, a Divine one - that stops counting in the Lo-Ammi periods - and a human one that counts continuously. Others say this is nonsense and either way is fine by me.

Another example, I'm convinced God made a purpose of the aions, in which he works out his plan with creation in a set number of aions. To others this is so preposterous, they wont even discuss it. I sometimes have the feeling that discussing the Scriptures is like two colorblind people that have a different kind of colorblindness. How is one going to convince the other what color they talk about? Try to imagine that conversation and tell me it didn't put a smile on your face.

Like I've said I've learned to be very tolerant over the years and I respect peoples believes about the Scriptures whether I agree or not. Who of us can say he has the absolute truth and knowledge? I for sure don't.

Aristarkos

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying about being 4 years off. I'm referring to the Gregorian calendar that we use today. As far as being off, I agree, but in the other direction. A very weak reading of Luke is why the Catholic church made our year what it is. Based on my research, I put Jesus' birth on Nisan 1, 7 BC. So our calendar is off by seven years. We should be in the year 2023 right now.

I have seen several of the chronological charts like this. I decided to do my own to verify. I used the LXX instead of our modern KJV. There are too many missing words between the LXX from 275 BC and the KVJ from 900 AD Hebrew manuscripts. For example: Luke 3 has the genealogy of Jesus. He lists Arphaxad, Cainan, Selah. When we go to Genesis 11 in the KJV we see Arphaxad begot Selah. Where's Cainan? In the LXX, Cainan is found along with about a dozen other words. The ages of people in the KJV are exactly one hundred years short, in about a dozen cases, as compared to the LXX. I always wondered why the ages were so radically different for have children in the KJV. It appears that the word "hundred" was inadvertently deleted several times during the 1175 year gap between versions. The LXX isn't perfect either. The years for Methuselah and Lamach are quite different than the KJV and do not add up before the flood. It is a bit of a guessing game.

It has come to my attention that some of the kings of Judah and Israel after the split may have made their heirs co-regents and some of the years may actually overlap. My total findings may be up to 50 years more than what actually transpired. Depending on the validity of the co-regency issue, according to the oldest Bible we have, we are between 7470 - 7522 years from creation. In any case, you can see that thread here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/266090-Can-the-Bible-date-creation

Even if we use the KJV, the period from Adam to Jesus was more than 4000 years. I think the attempt to make Adam to Jesus 4000 years is based on the hope of Jesus coming back at 2000 years. I can't blame people for that. Today would fine with me! The Babylonian captivity began in 607 BC when Daniel was taken captive, not 20 years later when Jerusalem was burned. They were taken captive in stages. Notice the years they use for the captivity, they do not add up anywhere near 70 years, as Jeremiah and Daniel stated. They left out Exodus 12:41, 430 years total in Egypt. There are multiple error like this. But, excitement over the return of Jesus is understandable.

Aristarkos
Jan 28th 2016, 09:39 AM
I'm not sure I follow what you are saying about being 4 years off. I'm referring to the Gregorian calendar that we use today. As far as being off, I agree, but in the other direction. A very weak reading of Luke is why the Catholic church made our year what it is. Based on my research, I put Jesus' birth on Nisan 1, 7 BC. So our calendar is off by seven years. We should be in the year 2023 right now.

Well at least we agree that our calendar is off.


I have seen several of the chronological charts like this. I decided to do my own to verify. I used the LXX instead of our modern KJV. There are too many missing words between the LXX from 275 BC and the KVJ from 900 AD Hebrew manuscripts. For example: Luke 3 has the genealogy of Jesus. He lists Arphaxad, Cainan, Selah. When we go to Genesis 11 in the KJV we see Arphaxad begot Selah. Where's Cainan? In the LXX, Cainan is found along with about a dozen other words. The ages of people in the KJV are exactly one hundred years short, in about a dozen cases, as compared to the LXX. I always wondered why the ages were so radically different for have children in the KJV. It appears that the word "hundred" was inadvertently deleted several times during the 1175 year gap between versions. The LXX isn't perfect either. The years for Methuselah and Lamach are quite different than the KJV and do not add up before the flood. It is a bit of a guessing game.

IMHO, the Hebrew and Greek scriptures is what one should use to verify our translations - it's closest to the original inspired text - and not another translation that has known issues. (Like all translations have!)


It has come to my attention that some of the kings of Judah and Israel after the split may have made their heirs co-regents and some of the years may actually overlap. My total findings may be up to 50 years more than what actually transpired. Depending on the validity of the co-regency issue, according to the oldest Bible we have, we are between 7470 - 7522 years from creation. In any case, you can see that thread here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/266090-Can-the-Bible-date-creation



That's quite a difference you come up with! Almost double what just about all other researchers have found. I've read in the above mentioned thread you have concluded that the Septuagint is 1100 years older then the oldest Hebrew text? Or did I misread you?

According to this site:

http://www.septuagint.net/

the translation dates from between 300-200 BC, other sources seem to confirm that. (???)


Even if we use the KJV, the period from Adam to Jesus was more than 4000 years. I think the attempt to make Adam to Jesus 4000 years is based on the hope of Jesus coming back at 2000 years.

That has always surprised me, the Scriptures are quite clear in that:

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


I can't blame people for that.Today would fine with me!

Amen!


The Babylonian captivity began in 607 BC when Daniel was taken captive, not 20 years later when Jerusalem was burned. They were taken captive in stages. Notice the years they use for the captivity, they do not add up anywhere near 70 years, as Jeremiah and Daniel stated. They left out Exodus 12:41, 430 years total in Egypt. There are multiple error like this. But, excitement over the return of Jesus is understandable.

I have all this info in another language so I'll translate a little of it just to show you where I come frome with my numbers.

We are way off with the numbers, I have the captivity at 496 which is what I meant. These are those Lo-Ammi years. 93 in Judges, 6 years under Athalia and 13 years of open time spaces after Amazia = 112 (607 - 496 = 111 [could easily be 112 or 110 depending on how the years are counted]). The captivity lasted 70 years so we're at 426.

When we take the Scriptures as a base for dating history, it appears what most historians see as successive events are in fact in large parallel events. Nebuchadnezzar, Astyages this is the Ahasveros of Ester or the Darius of Daniel 5, and his son Cyrus, all reigned at the same time. In the 20th year of his reign the Ahasveros of Ester, that is the Arthsasta of Nehemiah 2.1 or Darius the Mede of Daniel 5:1 (All three are titles or nicknames) gave order to rebuild Jerusalem. That was Nebuchadnezzar's 42nd year of reign. How can this be? How could the king of med-persia give orders while Babylons power still existed? Because Astyages = Ahasveros = Artahsasta = Darius ruled in behalf of his brother in law Nebuchadnezzar who had his 7 years of insanity just then. God used the time of Nebuchadnezzar's punishment for his pride to get Jerusalem rebuild. Nebuchanezzar would have never agreed to the rebuild, Ashaveros did, Nehemiah's request is granted.

I'm fully aware most people will disagree with the above, that's ok with me. I'm not here to get my « right », I'm here to share what I have learned and what I see as a true representation of the numbers in the Scriptures. I'm also fully aware you can repeat those last words when you talk about your findings. So while we probably never will be brothers in numbers, we sure are brothers in Christ.

Aristarkos

Tony P
Jan 28th 2016, 10:43 PM
Well at least we agree that our calendar is off.

IMHO, the Hebrew and Greek scriptures is what one should use to verify our translations - it's closest to the original inspired text - and not another translation that has known issues. (Like all translations have!)

That's quite a difference you come up with! Almost double what just about all other researchers have found. I've read in the above mentioned thread you have concluded that the Septuagint is 1100 years older then the oldest Hebrew text? Or did I misread you?

According to this site:

http://www.septuagint.net/

the translation dates from between 300-200 BC, other sources seem to confirm that. (???)

Yes, the Septuagint, or LXX, dates to around 275 BC. Your dates are correct. Yes, the oldest Hebrew version of the OT dates to 900 AD. This is 600 years AFTER the oldest complete New Testament we have. Yes, 1175 years after the LXX. The LXX is a Greek translation made by Temple scribes from Jerusalem for the great Alexandrian library. People just generally associate the Hebrew as more authentic because it is Hebrew. The discrepancies between the two versions are generally seen as a problem in the LXX. Not sure why. It is by far the oldest and closest to the original. Being Greek doesn't weaken its standing in my view any more than our Bible being in English. Did you follow the genealogy issue above?


I have all this info in another language so I'll translate a little of it just to show you where I come frome with my numbers.

We are way off with the numbers, I have the captivity at 496 which is what I meant. These are those Lo-Ammi years. 93 in Judges, 6 years under Athalia and 13 years of open time spaces after Amazia = 112 (607 - 496 = 111 [could easily be 112 or 110 depending on how the years are counted]). The captivity lasted 70 years so we're at 426.

When we take the Scriptures as a base for dating history, it appears what most historians see as successive events are in fact in large parallel events. Nebuchadnezzar, Astyages this is the Ahasveros of Ester or the Darius of Daniel 5, and his son Cyrus, all reigned at the same time. In the 20th year of his reign the Ahasveros of Ester, that is the Arthsasta of Nehemiah 2.1 or Darius the Mede of Daniel 5:1 (All three are titles or nicknames) gave order to rebuild Jerusalem. That was Nebuchadnezzar's 42nd year of reign. How can this be? How could the king of med-persia give orders while Babylons power still existed? Because Astyages = Ahasveros = Artahsasta = Darius ruled in behalf of his brother in law Nebuchadnezzar who had his 7 years of insanity just then. God used the time of Nebuchadnezzar's punishment for his pride to get Jerusalem rebuild. Nebuchanezzar would have never agreed to the rebuild, Ashaveros did, Nehemiah's request is granted.

I'm fully aware most people will disagree with the above, that's ok with me. I'm not here to get my « right », I'm here to share what I have learned and what I see as a true representation of the numbers in the Scriptures. I'm also fully aware you can repeat those last words when you talk about your findings. So while we probably never will be brothers in numbers, we sure are brothers in Christ.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here. We have archaeological evidence that dates these kings. The Biblical record matches the historical record. Darius is a very different Achamenid name than the ones translates as Xerxes and Artatxerxes. Are you saying the captivity began in 496 BC?

This might be the least important thing in the Bible, but did some reading about Nebu and his insanity. The word translated as years is actually seasons. They had two seasons, summer and winter. This then points to 3.5 years insane. This was actually noted by a couple Greek historians. Useless tip of the day!

Aristarkos
Jan 29th 2016, 12:09 AM
Yes, the Septuagint, or LXX, dates to around 275 BC. Your dates are correct. Yes, the oldest Hebrew version of the OT dates to 900 AD. This is 600 years AFTER the oldest complete New Testament we have. Yes, 1175 years after the LXX. The LXX is a Greek translation made by Temple scribes from Jerusalem for the great Alexandrian library. People just generally associate the Hebrew as more authentic because it is Hebrew. The discrepancies between the two versions are generally seen as a problem in the LXX. Not sure why. It is by far the oldest and closest to the original. Being Greek doesn't weaken its standing in my view any more than our Bible being in English. Did you follow the genealogy issue above?

Issue? (Obviously I didn't) I'm sorry I have to say I disagree with your view of the LXX, it must say something Christ never used or mentioned it. If I got it right, He quoted 49 different verses and non of them from the LXX. If it were that good, I'm sure the NT would have mentioned it for us to take advantage of. It doesn't so I can't recognize it as an authority. Also I think you are wrong about the Hebrew text. If one is to believe the Scriptures are Gods word, then one must also believe that God Himself made sure the Hebrew scribes that were in charge of copying the Scriptures did this perfect. Without this assurance we have nothing. I am convinced this is the case, it is the foundation of my faith.


I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here. We have archaeological evidence that dates these kings. The Biblical record matches the historical record. Darius is a very different Achamenid name than the ones translates as Xerxes and Artatxerxes. Are you saying the captivity began in 496 BC?

Yes, I do, to answer your question first. Second I do not recognize archaeological findings as evidence either, it is way to dodgy. The only thing I have and recognize as an authority is the Scriptures in their native languages. We can read translations in our own language for convenience but the only way to the true meaning of the text is to go back to the native language. Just look at the translations in English/French/German/Dutch/Romanian/Spanish etc., they all have endless lists of translation issues that obscure a lot of the original message. A lot of the so called contradictions in the Scriptures only exist in translations. For me it is quite simple, the Scriptures never contradict themselves and all the numbers are correct. All problems that arise are the result of believing translations over native text, borrowing numbers from non biblical sources and not believing ALL the prophets have said.


This might be the least important thing in the Bible, but did some reading about Nebu and his insanity. The word translated as years is actually seasons. They had two seasons, summer and winter. This then points to 3.5 years insane. This was actually noted by a couple Greek historians. Useless tip of the day!

I don't think we will ever come together on our understanding of the Scriptures or its numbers. I can live with that.

Aristarkos

CurtTN
Jan 29th 2016, 01:31 AM
I have all this info in another language so I'll translate a little of it just to show you where I come frome with my numbers.

We are way off with the numbers, I have the captivity at 496 which is what I meant. These are those Lo-Ammi years. 93 in Judges, 6 years under Athalia and 13 years of open time spaces after Amazia = 112 (607 - 496 = 111 [could easily be 112 or 110 depending on how the years are counted]). The captivity lasted 70 years so we're at 426.

When we take the Scriptures as a base for dating history, it appears what most historians see as successive events are in fact in large parallel events. Nebuchadnezzar, Astyages this is the Ahasveros of Ester or the Darius of Daniel 5, and his son Cyrus, all reigned at the same time. In the 20th year of his reign the Ahasveros of Ester, that is the Arthsasta of Nehemiah 2.1 or Darius the Mede of Daniel 5:1 (All three are titles or nicknames) gave order to rebuild Jerusalem. That was Nebuchadnezzar's 42nd year of reign. How can this be? How could the king of med-persia give orders while Babylons power still existed? Because Astyages = Ahasveros = Artahsasta = Darius ruled in behalf of his brother in law Nebuchadnezzar who had his 7 years of insanity just then. God used the time of Nebuchadnezzar's punishment for his pride to get Jerusalem rebuild. Nebuchanezzar would have never agreed to the rebuild, Ashaveros did, Nehemiah's request is granted.

I'm fully aware most people will disagree with the above, that's ok with me. I'm not here to get my « right », I'm here to share what I have learned and what I see as a true representation of the numbers in the Scriptures. I'm also fully aware you can repeat those last words when you talk about your findings. So while we probably never will be brothers in numbers, we sure are brothers in Christ.

Aristarkos

Aristarkosi, thanks for this post and I am intrigued. Most people ignore the influence of Ester and I have never heard of the idea that Ahasveros reigned while Neb, was wild. I also have other names for these rulers and have always assumed that Darius followed Neb. and Xerxes was his son and Artaxerxes his grandson. Where do I find the info you laid out.

Now my primary question. I believe that the 69 weeks of Daniel (483 years) run from the proclamation you cite until the crucifixion. Your date of proclamation as 496 AD makes this off by some 49 years. What is your interpretation of Daniels 68 weeks and how do you count them?

Thanks again

Tony P
Jan 29th 2016, 04:51 AM
Issue? (Obviously I didn't) I'm sorry I have to say I disagree with your view of the LXX, it must say something Christ never used or mentioned it. If I got it right, He quoted 49 different verses and non of them from the LXX. If it were that good, I'm sure the NT would have mentioned it for us to take advantage of. It doesn't so I can't recognize it as an authority. Also I think you are wrong about the Hebrew text. If one is to believe the Scriptures are Gods word, then one must also believe that God Himself made sure the Hebrew scribes that were in charge of copying the Scriptures did this perfect. Without this assurance we have nothing. I am convinced this is the case, it is the foundation of my faith.

On the contrary, over 90% of Jesus' scripture quotes, and those of his disciples in the NT, are directly from the LXX. It was called the LXX at the time it was just called scripture. Check this out. I'm serious. Find scripture quotes from Jesus, then compare them to the KJV of the OT. They are different. Then check them against the LXX and they are nearly word for word. The differences are trivial. No doubt. The essence of the message is completely in tact. Just slightly different wording, which is normal as language evolves. The LXX was indeed the scriptures used by Jesus, Paul, and the rest of Israel. It was the only version they had. Jesus called it the word of God. Do some cross referencing. You will see.

The Septuagint can be viewed online free if you do not have one.

www.ecmarsh.com

Aristarkos
Jan 29th 2016, 07:16 AM
On the contrary, over 90% of Jesus' scripture quotes, and those of his disciples in the NT, are directly from the LXX. It was called the LXX at the time it was just called scripture. Check this out. I'm serious. Find scripture quotes from Jesus, then compare them to the KJV of the OT. They are different. Then check them against the LXX and they are nearly word for word. The differences are trivial. No doubt. The essence of the message is completely in tact. Just slightly different wording, which is normal as language evolves. The LXX was indeed the scriptures used by Jesus, Paul, and the rest of Israel. It was the only version they had. Jesus called it the word of God. Do some cross referencing. You will see.

The Septuagint can be viewed online free if you do not have one.

www.ecmarsh.com

To proof that the Lord did not recognize the Septuagint is His remark in Luke:

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The Septuagint changed this order, it also broke up Samuel, Kings and Chronicles into 2 books, put Daniel at the prophets and there is more. The fact that some quotations have resemblances with the Septuagint may be more a result from translating Hebrew into Greek than a true quote.

Have you ever been in a synagogue? Up until this day they use Hebrew scrolls. One can not put any translation over the original language.

I've looked at the link you gave and I wonder why do you give so much importance to a translation of a translation? Like I said, the original OT Scriptures were in Hebrew, I trust in God that He made sure the Hebrew copiers worked very accurately so that we still have His word without errors, like totally different numbers.

This is what E.W. Bullinger (http://www.newble.co.uk/writers/Bullinger/biography.html) writes:

THE SEPTUAGINT VERSION
OF JEREMIAH.

This Is Appendix 84 From The Companion Bible.

The Septuagint translation of Jeremiah differs both in matter and form from the Massoretic Hebrew Text. It is a Paraphrase rather than a Version, and an Exposition rather than a Translation. It is not therefore to be regarded as representing an independent Hebrew Text, but as a paraphrase, often abbreviated, and often inaccurate. No Hebrew Manuscript ever seen corresponds with a text from which the Septuagint professes to have been derived.

It omits about one-eighth of the Hebrew text, or about 2,700 words; while the changes manifest the carelessness and arbitrariness of the translator or translators. Indeed, the Hebrew language does not seem to have been understood, or its meaning apprehended; for, when the sense of a word could not be understood, it was summarily transliterated in Greek characters.
It is needless therefore to treat it seriously, or to set out in any tables wherein such differences consist.

Why would one give any value to such a « translation »?

Aristarkos

Aristarkos
Jan 29th 2016, 08:00 AM
Aristarkosi, thanks for this post and I am intrigued. Most people ignore the influence of Ester and I have never heard of the idea that Ahasveros reigned while Neb, was wild. I also have other names for these rulers and have always assumed that Darius followed Neb. and Xerxes was his son and Artaxerxes his grandson. Where do I find the info you laid out.

It comes from a different approach to the Chronology in the Scriptures. There are two time lines, a Divine that stops counting when there is Lo-Ammi period and a human one that keeps counting. I don't think you will find this info anywhere in English and I don't have the time to translate about 40 pages into English right now. But if you keep close track of the Lo-Ammi periods you'll see all the numbers fit.


Now my primary question. I believe that the 69 weeks of Daniel (483 years) run from the proclamation you cite until the crucifixion. Your date of proclamation as 496 AD makes this off by some 49 years. What is your interpretation of Daniels 68 weeks and how do you count them?

Thanks again

Quote from this thread (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/266067-Why-I-reject-a-continuous-70-weeks-interpretation-of-Daniel-9?p=3282429#post3282429)


But there is a reason, the 7 sevens or 49 years were used to rebuild Jerusalem. This started under Nehemiah in 454 BC. Please note it says Jerusalem, not the temple. Under Ezra they started building the temple. The troublous times. lasted 49 years so till 405. That's when the initiation of the temple took place and from that moment the 62 sevens started, or 434 years. They go from 405-434 this is the year 29 AD. As you may know we are four years behind, so that's when the Christ was crucified in His 33rd year.


So our year 33AD just to be clear.

Aristarkos

ForHisglory
Jan 29th 2016, 03:46 PM
I think Jesus said he would be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. This began as soon as he died, not when he was buried. Throughout the Bible, any part of a day was counted. Today is day one. Tomorrow is the second day etc. So the three hours of daylight after his death would count to the people of that era. There are many examples of this being the way years of kings were counted as well. As I learned from my genealogy work. Also, there is no reference in scripture that Jesus rose after sunset Saturday. The guards were told to say that they fell asleep when the angel rolled the stone away. It was during the night sometime. Even if Jesus rose just after sunset, it would still count as a night. This makes Thursday the only possibility. If Jesus was crucified on Wed, there would four nights. Wed, Thurs, Fri, Sat.

Passover could not have been on Wed in 33 AD. Thursday or Friday are the only possible days for the 33 AD Passover. My research shows Passover was on Thursday that year. We know this was the year Jesus was crucified because the worldwide darkness was recorded by Phlegen. The earthquake that damaged the Temple was also recorded in Jewish records for 33 AD.

John recorded that Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem five days before Passover. If Passover was on Wed, that would Jesus triumphal entry on Saturday, the Sabbath. This would be a violation of the law of Moses. Sat, Sun, Mon, Tues, Wed. Five days. This is further evidence that Wed could not be the day of the Passover crucifixion.
Just to note, but Isaac Newton calculated it as 34 AD, and that was the year according to his calculations of the darkness. Many have confirmed 33 AD was a Friday Passover.
Otherwise I agree with what you have stated, Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation dying at 3pm, when the Lambs were being slaughtered. This was the same Jewish Day as when He had His meal with the disciples. This is the 14th Nissan.
Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the 10th Nissan, which was Sunday day. Each day is noted by Mark, with no day missing. There are too many days for Jesus to have been crucified on Wednesday (which would have been the 13th Nissan anyway, as the Sunday was the 10th - when the Lamb without defect is chosen.)

Aristarkos
Jan 29th 2016, 04:12 PM
Is that how you see things?

No, not at all. I provided the link pure for the chronology, to show many are busy with it and even so many come up with different results. I have no particular day of importance:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Aristarkos

Tony P
Jan 29th 2016, 04:50 PM
To proof that the Lord did not recognize the Septuagint is His remark in Luke:

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The Septuagint changed this order, it also broke up Samuel, Kings and Chronicles into 2 books, put Daniel at the prophets and there is more. The fact that some quotations have resemblances with the Septuagint may be more a result from translating Hebrew into Greek than a true quote.

Have you ever been in a synagogue? Up until this day they use Hebrew scrolls. One can not put any translation over the original language.

I've looked at the link you gave and I wonder why do you give so much importance to a translation of a translation? Like I said, the original OT Scriptures were in Hebrew, I trust in God that He made sure the Hebrew copiers worked very accurately so that we still have His word without errors, like totally different numbers.

This is what E.W. Bullinger (http://www.newble.co.uk/writers/Bullinger/biography.html) writes:

THE SEPTUAGINT VERSION
OF JEREMIAH.

This Is Appendix 84 From The Companion Bible.

The Septuagint translation of Jeremiah differs both in matter and form from the Massoretic Hebrew Text. It is a Paraphrase rather than a Version, and an Exposition rather than a Translation. It is not therefore to be regarded as representing an independent Hebrew Text, but as a paraphrase, often abbreviated, and often inaccurate. No Hebrew Manuscript ever seen corresponds with a text from which the Septuagint professes to have been derived.

It omits about one-eighth of the Hebrew text, or about 2,700 words; while the changes manifest the carelessness and arbitrariness of the translator or translators. Indeed, the Hebrew language does not seem to have been understood, or its meaning apprehended; for, when the sense of a word could not be understood, it was summarily transliterated in Greek characters.
It is needless therefore to treat it seriously, or to set out in any tables wherein such differences consist.

Why would one give any value to such a « translation »?

Aristarkos

If that were true then how can we value the English version. It's not Hebrew. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew just like the King James version is an English translation of the Hebrew. If you did not do the reference crossing from the New Testament to the Septuagint you will not see what I'm talking about.

The King James version got rid of the first two books of kings. Kings one and two in our Bible is actually Kings three and four in the original. The differences are minute. But if you want to know the word for word versions that are quoted in the New Testament you have to go to the septuagint.

Many people try to discredit the Septuagint simply because of the minor differences between it and the Hebrew version we have today. Hebrew version only dates back to 900 AD. They don't want to explain the differences. So they just trash the Septuagint. I feel that it is better to deal with the discrepancies rather than pretend they do not exist.

Very significant textual criticism is the method in which the New Testament was put together from various manuscripts. Some of these manuscripts varied and had to be compared to come up with the best version of the original.

This is by no means a giant issue with me. Many people don't want to read the Septuagint for various reasons. It's not that big a deal. When you cross reference the New Testament quotes of scripture to the King James version you do see some differences. When you cross reference the New Testament quotes scripture to the Septuagint it is a lot closer. But to each his own.

Tony P
Jan 29th 2016, 05:46 PM
Just to note, but Isaac Newton calculated it as 34 AD, and that was the year according to his calculations of the darkness. Many have confirmed 33 AD was a Friday Passover.
Otherwise I agree with what you have stated, Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation dying at 3pm, when the Lambs were being slaughtered. This was the same Jewish Day as when He had His meal with the disciples. This is the 14th Nissan.
Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the 10th Nissan, which was Sunday day. Each day is noted by Mark, with no day missing. There are too many days for Jesus to have been crucified on Wednesday (which would have been the 13th Nissan anyway, as the Sunday was the 10th - when the Lamb without defect is chosen.)

Yes I have a book on sir Isaac newton that does to 34 AD. From this book, he suspected 34 A.D. because of the story about Jesus and his disciples to eating wheat on the Sabbath. He dated this two years before the crucifixion. In 32 AD the Passover was later in the year. It is fascinating to follow his thought process.

Most people do think that Passover was on Friday in the year 33 A.D. Just about all calendar converter's will say the same thing. However the Jewish months were based on the moon, obviously. I found lunar records from Baghdad during this period that claim the new moon fell on March 17, in the Gregorian calendar for 33. This confirms that Nissan 14 was indeed Thursday in that year. This also confirms Nissan 10 being Sunday for Jesus' triumphal entry.

Furthermore, I found evidence that the northern tribes counted days as the Romans. Their days began at midnight. Their days also were moved up so that the overlap of the evening matched the Jewish calendar from Judah and Jerusalem. Also the Talmud makes mention of the fact that there were too many lambs to sacrifice in one day. About 250,000. The difference in the way days were calculated from the north and south is exactly why Jesus could indeed eat the Passover meal on the night of Nissan 13, Which is actually the beginning of Nissan 14, before his crucifixion on Nissan 14. Nissan 14 in the north was Nissan 13 in the south until evening when they both were Nissan 14 at the same time. A thorough study of first century Israel confirms everything written in the Gospels.

Aristarkos
Jan 29th 2016, 06:03 PM
If that were true then how can we value the English version. It's not Hebrew. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew just like the King James version is an English translation of the Hebrew. If you did not do the reference crossing from the New Testament to the Septuagint you will not see what I'm talking about.

That's my point, you can't study the Bible in detail without falling back on the original languages. Translations - no matter what language - are notoriously unreliable. So the English translation of the Greek translation of the original Hebrew text doesn't give me much confidence.


The King James version got rid of the first two books of kings. Kings one and two in our Bible is actually Kings three and four in the original. The differences are minute. But if you want to know the word for word versions that are quoted in the New Testament you have to go to the septuagint.

Many people try to discredit the Septuagint simply because of the minor differences between it and the Hebrew version we have today. Hebrew version only dates back to 900 AD. They don't want to explain the differences. So they just trash the Septuagint. I feel that it is better to deal with the discrepancies rather than pretend they do not exist.

I don't discredit it, it is just another translation and I treat them all the same.


Very significant textual criticism is the method in which the New Testament was put together from various manuscripts. Some of these manuscripts varied and had to be compared to come up with the best version of the original.

This is by no means a giant issue with me. Many people don't want to read the Septuagint for various reasons. It's not that big a deal. When you cross reference the New Testament quotes of scripture to the King James version you do see some differences. When you cross reference the New Testament quotes scripture to the Septuagint it is a lot closer. But to each his own.

The differences between those were minor, like I said I'm 100% convinced that God made sure the original languages were preserved for the generations to come. How can He expect from us to do His will, know His truth, believe what He wants us to believe if we can't rely on the original texts? Translations are only good for quick reference and reading. A good example of that is the concept of eternity (for ever and ever etc.) in the translations. The inspired Scriptures no nothing about it. To our limited perception a never started and never ending eternity is completely incomprehensible.

But like you said, each to his own.

Aristarkos

Tony P
Jan 30th 2016, 02:41 AM
That's my point, you can't study the Bible in detail without falling back on the original languages. Translations - no matter what language - are notoriously unreliable. So the English translation of the Greek translation of the original Hebrew text doesn't give me much confidence.

I don't discredit it, it is just another translation and I treat them all the same.

The differences between those were minor, like I said I'm 100% convinced that God made sure the original languages were preserved for the generations to come. How can He expect from us to do His will, know His truth, believe what He wants us to believe if we can't rely on the original texts? Translations are only good for quick reference and reading. A good example of that is the concept of eternity (for ever and ever etc.) in the translations. The inspired Scriptures no nothing about it. To our limited perception a never started and never ending eternity is completely incomprehensible.

But like you said, each to his own.

Aristarkos

From your first point here you claim that translations cannot be relied upon. If that were true then we can throw away the entire New Testament. Jesus did not speak in Greek yet that's where the new testament comes from. From Hebrew to Greek to English just like you stated above, which you have no confidence in. The original language of Jesus with either Hebrew or Aramaic. We have no New Testament manuscripts in those languages. Therefore every New Testament in the world cannot be relied upon. I disagree completely with this.

If only the Hebrew version can be used to learn about God then God is not a God of all people. We see images in revelation of people from all tribes nations and tongues before the throne of God. Not only Hebrew speakers. The mere fact that translations can be made shows that God is for all people. God is not confined to one language.

Comparing the differences with a modern Hebrew version to a Greek version 1175 years older, and blaming the changes on the older Greek, is illogical. The Greek came first. Have you ever compared to the book of Isaiah found in the Dead Sea Scrolls versus the 900 AD version that was used to make our Old Testament? There are no two verses the same. The message is essentially the same but The wording is different. Changes occur moving forward in time not backward in time. There are several words and phrases missing from the Hebrew. I can prove it.

Check genealogy from Luke 3. He lists Arphaxad, Cainan, and Selah. Go to the Hebrew Genesis 11. It says Arphaxad begot Selah. Either Luke was mistaken or the Hebrew contains an error. In the LXX, The record of Cainan is found. It was in scripture of the first century but it was lost sometime before 900 AD. That is why multiple manuscripts are more valuable than one, no matter the language. The modern Hebrew is not the exact same as the original. Very close but not identical. This is of no importance. It isn't the words we worship but the one whom the words tell of.

Aijalon
Jan 30th 2016, 04:12 AM
I have been doing a lot of research lately regarding Matty 12:40

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

It all started with a Video that I saw around Christmas called the Bethlemhem Star. In short the video gives evidence that Jesus was Crucified on Friday and Rose on early Sunday morning. I don't so much want to discuss the video as much as I want to discuss what the Bible says. I always had a problem with a Friday Crucificion in light of Matt 12:40 because you can't get three days and three nights from Fri to Sun.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other than I know the Bible must be true. I have seen eveidence from both sides of the debate but want to see what some of you may have to say about it.

I did a search and didn't see anything so I apologize if this has been discussed before.

The heart of the earth is Jerusalem, Jesus was in the city for three days and nights for his final act of ministry. This was his prophetic work, to call Jerusalem to repentance, but it would not.

Jesus was crucified on day 1 of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is a "high Sabbath". We know this because the scripture say that the Feast of was also called "Passover". The day of Passover is Nisan 14, and Day 1 of ULB is sundown on Passover day - the lambs are killed at the twilight between these two days.

They are then roasted/eaten with bitter herbs.

We know that Jesus ate the Passover meal, the final meal of the day in which all the yeast was purged before day's end and before the Lambs were slaughtered.

Jesus would have been having his feet washed at the same time that the Lambs were being lead away to slaughter and while Judas was betraying him. He then went to Gathsemane to pray (bitter herbs) at the foot of Mt of Olives where Zech 14 prophesies living water will split that mountain. Jesus spilled his blood on the ground in that Garden for the redemption of the saints for whom he prayed (recorded by John 17).

The day of his death was a "preparation day" which is a reference to the weekly Sabbath day. So he was crucified on a Friday, true, but it was outside the city. He had travelled to Jerusalem and slept there only for half the week, since the first part of the week he stayed in Bethany. His "three days and nights" pertain most likely to 10 Nissan, when he entered the city to lodge, and 14 Nissan, when he departed the city to pray at the Mt of Olives, and where he was arrested.

ForHisglory
Jan 30th 2016, 07:59 AM
The heart of the earth is Jerusalem, Jesus was in the city for three days and nights for his final act of ministry. This was his prophetic work, to call Jerusalem to repentance, but it would not.
I don't find Jerusalem ever called the heart of the earth, whereas this phrase is used for when a person dies.
He wasn't in the city for 3 days but 4.
Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday equals 4 days - on the 5th day He was crucified, which was Thursday. If you wish to claim Friday then that would make 5 days of ministry in Jerusalem.


Jesus was crucified on day 1 of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is a "high Sabbath". We know this because the scripture say that the Feast of was also called "Passover". The day of Passover is Nisan 14, and Day 1 of ULB is sundown on Passover day - the lambs are killed at the twilight between these two days.
They are then roasted/eaten with bitter herbs.
Jesus died BEFORE the Sabbath as clearly stated in numerous places in the Gospel. That means BEFORE the High Sabbath. The lambs are also slaughtered BEFORE the Sabbath, that is on the 14th at twilight (however due to the large number of lambs to be slaughtered they started earlier around 3 pm).


We know that Jesus ate the Passover meal, the final meal of the day in which all the yeast was purged before day's end and before the Lambs were slaughtered.
Problem here is that the Passover Meal requires eating the slaughtered lamb. However you may notice that nowhere in the Gospel does it mention a lamb being eaten. Jesus ate His meal in the evening, which is at the start of the Jewish day of the 14th.


Jesus would have been having his feet washed at the same time that the Lambs were being lead away to slaughter and while Judas was betraying him. He then went to Gathsemane to pray (bitter herbs) at the foot of Mt of Olives where Zech 14 prophesies living water will split that mountain. Jesus spilled his blood on the ground in that Garden for the redemption of the saints for whom he prayed (recorded by John 17).
Zec 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
This doesn't say that living waters split the mountain, but when His feet stand on it. The lambs are NOT slaughtered in the evening of the 14th, but in the day of the 14th.


The day of his death was a "preparation day" which is a reference to the weekly Sabbath day. So he was crucified on a Friday, true, but it was outside the city. He had travelled to Jerusalem and slept there only for half the week, since the first part of the week he stayed in Bethany. His "three days and nights" pertain most likely to 10 Nissan, when he entered the city to lodge, and 14 Nissan, when he departed the city to pray at the Mt of Olives, and where he was arrested.
The Day of Preparation is the ALSO the name for the Day for Preparing for the Passover, when the yeast is all cleared away, and the Lamb is prepared and killed.
So the Preparation Day is not in reference to the Sabbath (Saturday), but the High Sabbath of the Passover. He didn't sleep in Jerusalem even once during that week. The 3 days and nights refers to Him in hades.

Aristarkos
Jan 30th 2016, 08:09 AM
From your first point here you claim that translations cannot be relied upon. If that were true then we can throw away the entire New Testament. Jesus did not speak in Greek yet that's where the new testament comes from. From Hebrew to Greek to English just like you stated above, which you have no confidence in. The original language of Jesus with either Hebrew or Aramaic. We have no New Testament manuscripts in those languages. Therefore every New Testament in the world cannot be relied upon. I disagree completely with this.

You are twisting my words Tony or you really don't understand what I'm saying. The Holy Spirit let the writers of the NT write in Greek. So Greek is the original inspired language of the NT. That same Holy Spirit made the Israelites write down the OT in Hebrew. This was their language and the OT was initially meant for the Israelites. So the God Breathed original languages are the ones we can rely on. Not translations thereof.


If only the Hebrew version can be used to learn about God then God is not a God of all people. We see images in revelation of people from all tribes nations and tongues before the throne of God. Not only Hebrew speakers. The mere fact that translations can be made shows that God is for all people. God is not confined to one language.

Did I deny that? All I'm saying is if you want to know the exact words inspired by God you have to go back to the inspired languages. To assist one with this there are lexicons and concordances.


Comparing the differences with a modern Hebrew version to a Greek version 1175 years older, and blaming the changes on the older Greek, is illogical. The Greek came first. Have you ever compared to the book of Isaiah found in the Dead Sea Scrolls versus the 900 AD version that was used to make our Old Testament? There are no two verses the same. The message is essentially the same but The wording is different. Changes occur moving forward in time not backward in time. There are several words and phrases missing from the Hebrew. I can prove it.

No you cant. You can only prove that the LXX differs substantially from the Hebrew texts and I can use that same argument to make my point. See the link below how the Jews were making sure their copies were indeed exact copies and kept it that way over the Milena.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/torahaccuracy/


Check genealogy from Luke 3. He lists Arphaxad, Cainan, and Selah. Go to the Hebrew Genesis 11. It says Arphaxad begot Selah. Either Luke was mistaken or the Hebrew contains an error. In the LXX, The record of Cainan is found. It was in scripture of the first century but it was lost sometime before 900 AD. That is why multiple manuscripts are more valuable than one, no matter the language. The modern Hebrew is not the exact same as the original. Very close but not identical. This is of no importance. It isn't the words we worship but the one whom the words tell of.

And how do we know the One of whom the words tell if the words change over time? I'm sorry but we are not going to get to an agreement on this.

Aristarkos

Aristarkos
Jan 30th 2016, 08:21 AM
[...]

The Day of Preparation is the ALSO the name for the Day for Preparing for the Passover, when the yeast is all cleared away, and the Lamb is prepared and killed.
So the Preparation Day is not in reference to the Sabbath (Saturday), but the High Sabbath of the Passover. He didn't sleep in Jerusalem even once during that week. The 3 days and nights refers to Him in hades.

I totally agree with you, this is how I see it as well. Many want Jesus to have eaten of the passover lam but there is no proof in the Scriptures He did. The fact that Jesus got crucified just about the same time the passover lams were slaughtered is not without significance.

Aristarkos

John 8:32
Jan 31st 2016, 03:40 AM
I have been doing a lot of research lately regarding Matty 12:40

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

It all started with a Video that I saw around Christmas called the Bethlemhem Star. In short the video gives evidence that Jesus was Crucified on Friday and Rose on early Sunday morning. I don't so much want to discuss the video as much as I want to discuss what the Bible says. I always had a problem with a Friday Crucificion in light of Matt 12:40 because you can't get three days and three nights from Fri to Sun.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other than I know the Bible must be true. I have seen eveidence from both sides of the debate but want to see what some of you may have to say about it.

I did a search and didn't see anything so I apologize if this has been discussed before.

Well in that case, how about counting for me three days and three nights between Friday sunset and Sunday morning...

Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
Joh 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Twelve hours in the daylight portion of a day and that leaves twelve hours in the night. One day and one night then adds up to 24 hours. Three days and three nights add up to 72 hours. Friday sunset to Sunday morning does not work any way you count it. Wednesday sunset to Sabbath afternoon at sunset adds up to exactly three days and three nights, 72 hours, exactly as Christ said...

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Christ rose on Sabbath afternoon EXACTLY as he said He would.

Aijalon
Jan 31st 2016, 05:51 AM
I don't find Jerusalem ever called the heart of the earth, whereas this phrase is used for when a person dies.
See Ez 5:5 / Ez 38:12


He wasn't in the city for 3 days but 4.
Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday equals 4 days - on the 5th day He was crucified, which was Thursday. If you wish to claim Friday then that would make 5 days of ministry in Jerusalem.
We know for certain that he at the passover meal and the passover lamb - Matt 26:17 & Luke 22:7. Therefore we know that the date was the 14th of the month for this meal, and that on the 15th he died.

The trick then is knowing what is meant by "preparation day". He could not have died on the preparation day for the passover meal, since we know that he ate that meal with the 12. Therefore the preparation can ONLY mean the preparation day for the regular sabbath. THe reason that the sabbath was also called a "high day" was because it was one of the days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.




Problem here is that the Passover Meal requires eating the slaughtered lamb. However you may notice that nowhere in the Gospel does it mention a lamb being eaten.
It is a fact that the Last Supper was eaten on the same day the Lambs were slaughtered. It is not known necessarily if Jesus remained in the home long enough on the eve of the 15th to eat the Lamb, or if he departed for Gathsemane already. We simply know that he prayed in the Garden in the early hours of morning of the 15th of the month and that he died on the 15th, around 3 PM.


Jesus ate His meal in the evening, which is at the start of the Jewish day of the 14th.
wrong, he ate the Passover Feast which would be an afternoon affair, on the 14th, and he died the following day, the 15th.


The lambs are NOT slaughtered in the evening of the 14th, but in the day of the 14th.
They are slaughtered at twilight, at the last light of the 14th, which is the very end of the day -the 15th begins at sundown, per Levitical law.


The Day of Preparation is the ALSO the name for the Day for Preparing for the Passover, when the yeast is all cleared away, and the Lamb is prepared and killed.
As shown earlier, it is clear that the day the lambs were killed, is the day Jesus ate the last supper.


He didn't sleep in Jerusalem even once during that week. The 3 days and nights refers to Him in hades.
If he didn't sleep there, then it refers to his dealings in the temple, testing the pharisees, But I believe it only shows 2 or three trips back to Bethany to sleep there, he came to Bethany 6 days before passover, and slept there less than 6, so the remaining days he slept somewhere else it would seem.

He left and slept in bethany the night after trimphal entery (10th) so he returned on the 11th, slept there on the 12th, 13th, and 14th, departing for Mt of Olives roughly last hours of the 14th, or early 15th.

ForHisglory
Jan 31st 2016, 09:32 PM
Well in that case, how about counting for me three days and three nights between Friday sunset and Sunday morning...

Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
Joh 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Twelve hours in the daylight portion of a day and that leaves twelve hours in the night. One day and one night then adds up to 24 hours. Three days and three nights add up to 72 hours. Friday sunset to Sunday morning does not work any way you count it. Wednesday sunset to Sabbath afternoon at sunset adds up to exactly three days and three nights, 72 hours, exactly as Christ said...

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Christ rose on Sabbath afternoon EXACTLY as he said He would.
Sorry, but He died and was buried BEFORE 6 pm on the day of crucifixion. However by your own reckoning, it would be after Sabbath 6pm when He rose, so that is MORE than 72 hours IF we are being exact. Jesus however wasn't being EXACT, He said 3 days and 3 nights.
He died on Thursday day and was buried that same day. He was in the tomb on Friday night (our Thursday night - Passover) and Friday day.
He remained in the tomb on Saturday night (our Friday night - Sabbath). He was in the tomb all that day (our Saturday)
He remained in the tomb on Sunday night (our Saturday night). He has at this time now being in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights.
He rose from the grave on Sunday day (our Sunday), which was the 1st day and the day when the wheat was cut for the wave offering.
No one would cut the wheat on the evening AFTER the Sabbath.
The women had needed that Evening to get the spices needed to embalm Him properly, as they couldn't go shopping before then.

ForHisglory
Jan 31st 2016, 09:54 PM
See Ez 5:5 / Ez 38:12
Eze 5:5 "Thus says the Lord GOD: This is Jerusalem. I have set her in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.
Eze 38:12 to seize spoil and carry off plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places that are now inhabited, and the people who were gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell at the center of the earth.

Neither state the heart of the earth. The middle or the center doesn't mean the heart of the ground. It is taking words out of context to make them fit something else entirely.


We know for certain that he at the passover meal and the passover lamb - Matt 26:17 & Luke 22:7. Therefore we know that the date was the 14th of the month for this meal, and that on the 15th he died.
I understand what you are claiming and I'll post the verses for clarity:
Mat 26:17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?"
Mat 26:18 He said, "Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, 'The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.'"
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover.

When does the first day of Unleavened bread start? It starts on the evening of the day in which the lambs are slaughtered. That is the day on which Jesus was killed. He ate the meal on that evening, and then was arrested in the middle of the night, and then crucified whilst the lambs were being slaughtered.


The trick then is knowing what is meant by "preparation day". He could not have died on the preparation day for the passover meal, since we know that he ate that meal with the 12. Therefore the preparation can ONLY mean the preparation day for the regular sabbath. THe reason that the sabbath was also called a "high day" was because it was one of the days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
Nope, though I follow your reasoning, your basis is solely upon the idea that He ate the Passover Meal of the 14th Nisan.
The problem you have is this:
Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats,
Exo 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.

This lamb is killed as the 14th ENDS, and is eaten on the 15th evening. However for Jesus to eat this lamb would mean that He was killed on the 15th day.
Instead He ate a Passover Meal with the disciples on the evening of the START of 14th Nisan.


It is a fact that the Last Supper was eaten on the same day the Lambs were slaughtered. It is not known necessarily if Jesus remained in the home long enough on the eve of the 15th to eat the Lamb, or if he departed for Gathsemane already. We simply know that he prayed in the Garden in the early hours of morning of the 15th of the month and that he died on the 15th, around 3 PM.
Nope this is an IMPOSSIBILITY. We KNOW this 100% without an equivocation whatsoever. How do we know this? Because they could NOT have a dead person on this speacial Sabbath - this means the 15th. They wouldn't even enter into the Governor's palace on the day when the Lambs are slaughtered because then they would be unclean and unable to take part of the Passover.

We are also told this:
Mat 27:62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate
This day is NOT the normal Sabbath, for he would have written, the next day on the Sabbath. However the chief priests etc. have no eaten of the Passover meal and so are able to meet Pilate during the day, before the Sabbath starts.


wrong, he ate the Passover Feast which would be an afternoon affair, on the 14th, and he died the following day, the 15th.
Nope the Passover Meal is not an afternoon affair, but an evening affair. The lamb is killed as the 14th ends (twilight), and is eaten on the 15th.
So Jesus ate an evening meal on the 14th:
Joh 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.
Joh 13:2 During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him,
Joh 13:3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God,
Joh 13:4 rose from supper. He laid aside his outer garments, and taking a towel, tied it around his waist.
Joh 13:5 Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

Please pay attention to what John writes. It is supper, also known as the last supper and it is an evening meal:
Mar 14:17 And when it was evening, he came with the twelve.
Mar 14:18 And as they were reclining at table and eating, Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me."

Mark who states every day of that final week, has brought things to the evening of the 14th (the START of that day).


They are slaughtered at twilight, at the last light of the 14th, which is the very end of the day -the 15th begins at sundown, per Levitical law.
Exactly, so for Jesus to eat that Lamb then He would need to eat it on the evening of the 15th, yet He is already dead by then.


As shown earlier, it is clear that the day the lambs were killed, is the day Jesus ate the last supper.
If he didn't sleep there, then it refers to his dealings in the temple, testing the pharisees, But I believe it only shows 2 or three trips back to Bethany to sleep there, he came to Bethany 6 days before passover, and slept there less than 6, so the remaining days he slept somewhere else it would seem.
Jesus ate the Last Supper on the evening BEFORE the Lambs are slaughtered.


He left and slept in bethany the night after trimphal entery (10th) so he returned on the 11th, slept there on the 12th, 13th, and 14th, departing for Mt of Olives roughly last hours of the 14th, or early 15th.
He slept in Bethany the night before and every other night.

CurtTN
Feb 1st 2016, 04:01 AM
I totally agree with you, this is how I see it as well. Many want Jesus to have eaten of the passover lam but there is no proof in the Scriptures He did. The fact that Jesus got crucified just about the same time the passover lams were slaughtered is not without significance.

Aristarkos

I agree with both you and FHG. The point about being in Paradise (in Hades) seems to be missed throughout our discussions and is why no one could go to His tomb for 3d/3n. One additional point. As I understand it the normal day had 2 official sacrifices (Morning and afternoon one at 9 the other at 3). On the preparation day they added the official "Passover lamb" which became the 3 PM sacrifice. So on the day Jesus was crucified, at the time of the first sacrifice, Jesus was nailed to the cross, at the time of the second sacrifice darkness covers the area and when the Passover Lamb is slain at 3 PM Jesus dies.

Also noting that Jesus the great High Priest officiating over His own sacrifice follows the traditions as I understand them. Once the High Priest has declared the sacrifice acceptable, he stands with his arms outstretched until the lamb is dead. Once dead the HP utters the words "Neg Mar" which means "It is finished".

John 8:32
Feb 1st 2016, 09:08 PM
Sorry, but He died and was buried BEFORE 6 pm on the day of crucifixion. However by your own reckoning, it would be after Sabbath 6pm when He rose, so that is MORE than 72 hours IF we are being exact. Jesus however wasn't being EXACT, He said 3 days and 3 nights.
He died on Thursday day and was buried that same day. He was in the tomb on Friday night (our Thursday night - Passover) and Friday day.
He remained in the tomb on Saturday night (our Friday night - Sabbath). He was in the tomb all that day (our Saturday)
He remained in the tomb on Sunday night (our Saturday night). He has at this time now being in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights.
He rose from the grave on Sunday day (our Sunday), which was the 1st day and the day when the wheat was cut for the wave offering.
No one would cut the wheat on the evening AFTER the Sabbath.
The women had needed that Evening to get the spices needed to embalm Him properly, as they couldn't go shopping before then.

Lemme see, if He were put in the tomb just before sunset on Wednesday and was in the ground for three days and three nights, He would have been resurrected on Sabbath afternoon. I have NEVER stated that He was buried after sunset, rather I have always stated that He was entombed just before/right at sunset on Wednesday, the Passover, 31AD.

ForHisglory
Feb 1st 2016, 11:04 PM
Lemme see, if He were put in the tomb just before sunset on Wednesday and was in the ground for three days and three nights, He would have been resurrected on Sabbath afternoon. I have NEVER stated that He was buried after sunset, rather I have always stated that He was entombed just before/right at sunset on Wednesday, the Passover, 31AD.
If one day is BEFORE sunset, and the other is AFTER sunset, then that means MORE THAN 72 hours.
However it isn't about burial, but death. He died around 3pm, which pushes your view to 75+ hours.
The key thing to grasp is also of course how long was Jonah in the fish? Not 72 hours, but simply 3 days and 3 nights.

Finally you don't have Jesus dead an buried 3 days and nights, but 3 nights and days. If the EXACTITUDE of the statement is important (which I have shown I disagree with) then your timing is backwards. IOW He would need to die at sunrise, then have the first 12 hours of daylight, then 12 hours night etc.

One more point, the Soldiers were like dead men, but have you ever heard of soldiers pulling a full 12 hour shift? Not a chance in the Roman army.

CurtTN
Feb 2nd 2016, 04:29 AM
If one day is BEFORE sunset, and the other is AFTER sunset, then that means MORE THAN 72 hours.
However it isn't about burial, but death. He died around 3pm, which pushes your view to 75+ hours.
The key thing to grasp is also of course how long was Jonah in the fish? Not 72 hours, but simply 3 days and 3 nights.

Finally you don't have Jesus dead an buried 3 days and nights, but 3 nights and days. If the EXACTITUDE of the statement is important (which I have shown I disagree with) then your timing is backwards. IOW He would need to die at sunrise, then have the first 12 hours of daylight, then 12 hours night etc.

One more point, the Soldiers were like dead men, but have you ever heard of soldiers pulling a full 12 hour shift? Not a chance in the Roman army.

The point is not whether the time in the tomb is 2 seconds more than 72 hours but is it at least 72 hours, For Jesus to be accurate He must have 3 complete days and 3 complete nights. That is His sign and the sing of Jonah. Even Jonah had the time in the water and being swallowed and the time being vomited out on land but scripture said he was in the belly of the fish 3 day and 3 nights. Lets don't split hairs over seconds, let's make the prophesy work. In the tomb just before sundown on Wed. and out just after sundown on Sat. (which is actually Sun. in the Jewish day) makes the prophesy work.

percho
Feb 2nd 2016, 06:33 AM
The point is not whether the time in the tomb is 2 seconds more than 72 hours but is it at least 72 hours, For Jesus to be accurate He must have 3 complete days and 3 complete nights. That is His sign and the sing of Jonah. Even Jonah had the time in the water and being swallowed and the time being vomited out on land but scripture said he was in the belly of the fish 3 day and 3 nights. Lets don't split hairs over seconds, let's make the prophesy work. In the tomb just before sundown on Wed. and out just after sundown on Sat. (which is actually Sun. in the Jewish day) makes the prophesy work.

for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. YLT Matt 12:40
having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. YLT Acts 2:31

Was the Son of Man, soul? Would the heart of the earth more aptly be the state of death in Hades or to be entombed near the surface of the earth?

About what time did the soul enter through the gates into Hades?

That question could present a question concerning; Matt 16:18 YLT 'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; (considering) Acts 4:10,11 KJV Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought (In Hades?) of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

When was, the stone, the head of the corner, laid?

ForHisglory
Feb 2nd 2016, 03:42 PM
The point is not whether the time in the tomb is 2 seconds more than 72 hours but is it at least 72 hours, For Jesus to be accurate He must have 3 complete days and 3 complete nights. That is His sign and the sing of Jonah. Even Jonah had the time in the water and being swallowed and the time being vomited out on land but scripture said he was in the belly of the fish 3 day and 3 nights. Lets don't split hairs over seconds, let's make the prophesy work. In the tomb just before sundown on Wed. and out just after sundown on Sat. (which is actually Sun. in the Jewish day) makes the prophesy work.
Actually there is ZERO requirement for it to be 72 hours either less or more. What the sign Jesus stated is 3 days and 3 nights. Therefore as long as we can count 3 periods of day and 3 periods of night, then we can find it is fulfilled. So I am not splitting hairs over seconds, or even minutes, but in fact hours. It is important to ALWAYS use the measure which God himself uses. When He uses weeks (as in Dan 9) then we should use weeks. When He says days and nights then we should use days and nights.
Jesus was crucified on the Thursday day at the same time as the lambs were slaughtered, and after 3 days and 3 nights rose again on Sunday day (at day break).
We can also be 100% certain of this, simply by counting each day as mentioned in Mark's gospel.
He has Sunday day, and then the next 3 days, then the last supper (in the evening of that day - our Wednesday night) and then the trial and crucifixion.
Mark doesn't leave a single day out, and nor can we reduce it to less than Jesus being killed on Thursday solely based on what Mark wrote.
If you can't find the verses that prove this then I'll post them when I get a moment.

CurtTN
Feb 2nd 2016, 05:49 PM
for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. YLT Matt 12:40
having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. YLT Acts 2:31

Was the Son of Man, soul? Would the heart of the earth more aptly be the state of death in Hades or to be entombed near the surface of the earth?

About what time did the soul enter through the gates into Hades?

That question could present a question concerning; Matt 16:18 YLT 'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; (considering) Acts 4:10,11 KJV Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought (In Hades?) of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

When was, the stone, the head of the corner, laid?

I don't grasp the entirety of the question. As to the corner I believe it is laid with His resurrection. I will stay away from the Hades issue for now because it is translated two ways, hell and a place of the dead and that is, I believe, outside this thread.

I just don't know if it Was Jesus soul or His body and soul that appeared to the captives in the Paradise side of Hades. I tend to think it was His body which is why the 3 days and nights were on days no one could come to anoint a dead body. As to timing, I believe it was as soon as the stone was rolled over the opening.

CurtTN
Feb 2nd 2016, 06:00 PM
Actually there is ZERO requirement for it to be 72 hours either less or more. What the sign Jesus stated is 3 days and 3 nights. Therefore as long as we can count 3 periods of day and 3 periods of night, then we can find it is fulfilled. So I am not splitting hairs over seconds, or even minutes, but in fact hours. It is important to ALWAYS use the measure which God himself uses. When He uses weeks (as in Dan 9) then we should use weeks. When He says days and nights then we should use days and nights.

This is your interpretation but if you are going to cite God's measurement then let's use it. God says in Gen. "evening and morning were the first day etc.". Clearly a day and a night = a full day not just some part of a day. This is becoming argumentative so I'll drop out.


Jesus was crucified on the Thursday day at the same time as the lambs were slaughtered, and after 3 days and 3 nights rose again on Sunday day (at day break).
We can also be 100% certain of this, simply by counting each day as mentioned in Mark's gospel.
He has Sunday day, and then the next 3 days, then the last supper (in the evening of that day - our Wednesday night) and then the trial and crucifixion.
Mark doesn't leave a single day out, and nor can we reduce it to less than Jesus being killed on Thursday solely based on what Mark wrote.
If you can't find the verses that prove this then I'll post them when I get a moment.


If Thursday was the Passover then Jesus could not have been crucified on that day. Passover lambs are killed on preparation day to be eaten that evening when Passover begins. Jesus is our passover lamb and was Killed on that day. We don't agree and we don't have to agree.

percho
Feb 2nd 2016, 09:00 PM
I don't grasp the entirety of the question. As to the corner I believe it is laid with His resurrection. I will stay away from the Hades issue for now because it is translated two ways, hell and a place of the dead and that is, I believe, outside this thread.

I just don't know if it Was Jesus soul or His body and soul that appeared to the captives in the Paradise side of Hades. I tend to think it was His body which is why the 3 days and nights were on days no one could come to anoint a dead body. As to timing, I believe it was as soon as the stone was rolled over the opening.

I agree the stone was laid by the resurrection. Jesus says the words he speaks are not his, but the Father's. When Jesus speaks it is as the prophet like unto Moses, thus says the LORD. David said, the LORD (God the Father) says unto my Lord (the Son of God the Christ) sit here on my right hand until. God the Father is building the church and God the Father raised Jesus from the dead Gal 1:1 as the head of the corner, the stone, that by being crucified was rejected, as the chief cornerstone of the church. The gates of Hades (death) did not prevail against.

I believe the three days and three nights in the heart of the earth is speaking of the soul being in Sheol/Hades the realm of the dead for the amount of time required to be: After three days, in three days, on the third day and three days and three nights according to the equation; John 11:9,10 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

I believe the soul was released from Sheol/Hades by resurrection, at the same moment relative to three days and three nights from the time of entering, Sheol/Hades. The body of flesh in that same amount of time did not see corruption weather on the cross or entombed and was raised no more to return to corruption. Acts 13:34

CurtTN
Feb 3rd 2016, 02:10 AM
I agree the stone was laid by the resurrection. Jesus says the words he speaks are not his, but the Father's. When Jesus speaks it is as the prophet like unto Moses, thus says the LORD. David said, the LORD (God the Father) says unto my Lord (the Son of God the Christ) sit here on my right hand until. God the Father is building the church and God the Father raised Jesus from the dead Gal 1:1 as the head of the corner, the stone, that by being crucified was rejected, as the chief cornerstone of the church. The gates of Hades (death) did not prevail against.

I believe the three days and three nights in the heart of the earth is speaking of the soul being in Sheol/Hades the realm of the dead for the amount of time required to be: After three days, in three days, on the third day and three days and three nights according to the equation; John 11:9,10 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

I believe the soul was released from Sheol/Hades by resurrection, at the same moment relative to three days and three nights from the time of entering, Sheol/Hades. The body of flesh in that same amount of time did not see corruption weather on the cross or entombed and was raised no more to return to corruption. Acts 13:34

Great post. To your point of God building the church see 1 Pet. 2:5. To the 3d/3n point remember Jesus delay getting to Lazarus. People laughed and said by that time "he stinketh" or decay would be well along. No one comes out of a tomb after 3 days unless it is a miracle.

ForHisglory
Feb 3rd 2016, 07:41 AM
This is your interpretation but if you are going to cite God's measurement then let's use it. God says in Gen. "evening and morning were the first day etc.". Clearly a day and a night = a full day not just some part of a day. This is becoming argumentative so I'll drop out.
I am using it. I am agreeing evening and morning is a day. Jesus said though 3 days and nights, which is mornings and evenings. He didn't say 3 nights and 3 days.


If Thursday was the Passover then Jesus could not have been crucified on that day. Passover lambs are killed on preparation day to be eaten that evening when Passover begins. Jesus is our passover lamb and was Killed on that day. We don't agree and we don't have to agree.
Thursday was NOT the Passover, but the FIRST day of the feast, which is the day the lambs are killed. That evening is when the Passover starts. I agree that the lambs are killed on Preparation Day. Mark demonstrates that Thursday was the Preparation Day, the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Day when the Lambs are killed.

Here are the days (according to Jewish evening, mornings) in Mark:
Sunday day (10th Nisan): Mar 11:1 Now when they drew near to Jerusalem, to Bethphage and Bethany, at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two of his disciples
Monday evening (11th): Mar 11:11 And he entered Jerusalem and went into the temple. And when he had looked around at everything, as it was already late, he went out to Bethany with the twelve.

Monday day: Mar 11:12 On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry.

Tuesday evening (12th): Mar 11:19 And when evening came they went out of the city.

Tuesday day: Mar 11:20 As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots.
Mar 13:1 And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"
Mar 14:1 It was now two days before the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to arrest him by stealth and kill him,
Mar 14:2 for they said, "Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar from the people."


Wednesday evening (13th): Mar 14:3 And while he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he was reclining at table, a woman came with an alabaster flask of ointment of pure nard, very costly, and she broke the flask and poured it over his head.


Wednesday day: Mar 14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve, went to the chief priests in order to betray him to them.

Thursday evening (14th): Mar 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"
Mar 14:17 And when it was evening, he came with the twelve.



Thursday day: Mar 15:1 And as soon as it was morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council. And they bound Jesus and led him away and delivered him over to Pilate.


Mark 14:1 states emphatically that it was two days before the Feast which was two days AFTER His triumphal entry. That pinpoints it to Tuesday 12th. Mar 14:12 tells us that it was on the day when the Lamb was to be sacrificed that they went and had the Passover meal.

CurtTN
Feb 3rd 2016, 11:54 PM
I am using it. I am agreeing evening and morning is a day. Jesus said though 3 days and nights, which is mornings and evenings. He didn't say 3 nights and 3 days.

He was IMO quoting Jonah not describing the specific sequence. He was in fact in the grave for there days and 3 nights even if the nights came first.


Thursday was NOT the Passover, but the FIRST day of the feast, which is the day the lambs are killed. That evening is when the Passover starts. I agree that the lambs are killed on Preparation Day. Mark demonstrates that Thursday was the Preparation Day, the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Day when the Lambs are killed.


As I read scripture, Leviticus 23:5 & 6, Passover is the 14th and the FUB begins on the 15th so passover is before the feast not after. The lambs are killed on the day of Preparation not on the first day of the feast. Either the translator of Mark is wrong or Leviticus written by God is wrong. As far as I know, Mark was not authorized to change the Passover from the 14th and start of Feast from the 15th. Do you think he did?


Here are the days (according to Jewish evening, mornings) in Mark:
Sunday day (10th Nisan): Mar 11:1 Now when they drew near to Jerusalem, to Bethphage and Bethany, at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two of his disciples
Monday evening (11th): Mar 11:11 And he entered Jerusalem and went into the temple. And when he had looked around at everything, as it was already late, he went out to Bethany with the twelve.

Monday day: Mar 11:12 On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry.

Tuesday evening (12th): Mar 11:19 And when evening came they went out of the city.

Tuesday day: Mar 11:20 As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots.
Mar 13:1 And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"
Mar 14:1 It was now two days before the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to arrest him by stealth and kill him,
Mar 14:2 for they said, "Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar from the people."


Wednesday evening (13th): Mar 14:3 And while he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he was reclining at table, a woman came with an alabaster flask of ointment of pure nard, very costly, and she broke the flask and poured it over his head.


Wednesday day: Mar 14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve, went to the chief priests in order to betray him to them.

Thursday evening (14th): Mar 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"
Mar 14:17 And when it was evening, he came with the twelve.



Thursday day: Mar 15:1 And as soon as it was morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council. And they bound Jesus and led him away and delivered him over to Pilate.


Mark 14:1 states emphatically that it was two days before the Feast which was two days AFTER His triumphal entry. That pinpoints it to Tuesday 12th. Mar 14:12 tells us that it was on the day when the Lamb was to be sacrificed that they went and had the Passover meal.

I think the difference comes from Mark suggesting that the Passover lamb is killed on the day of the feast which is simply wrong because Passover is before the first day of the feast. When Mark says it was 2 days until the Passover and the feast, you are saying it is 2 days until the feast but it is really 2 days until the Passover. The Passover and feast are linked and you don't have a feast without a Passover. Since they are clearly 2 separate days, he cannot mean 2 days until both days. I fully agree that Jesus was crucified on the day of preparatin because he had to be down from the cross before sundown because the Passover began at sundown.

Tony P
Feb 4th 2016, 02:32 AM
He was IMO quoting Jonah not describing the specific sequence. He was in fact in the grave for there days and 3 nights even if the nights came first.



As I read scripture, Leviticus 23:5 & 6, Passover is the 14th and the FUB begins on the 15th so passover is before the feast not after. The lambs are killed on the day of Preparation not on the first day of the feast. Either the translator of Mark is wrong or Leviticus written by God is wrong. As far as I know, Mark was not authorized to change the Passover from the 14th and start of Feast from the 15th. Do you think he did?



I think the difference comes from Mark suggesting that the Passover lamb is killed on the day of the feast which is simply wrong because Passover is before the first day of the feast. When Mark says it was 2 days until the Passover and the feast, you are saying it is 2 days until the feast but it is really 2 days until the Passover. The Passover and feast are linked and you don't have a feast without a Passover. Since they are clearly 2 separate days, he cannot mean 2 days until both days. I fully agree that Jesus was crucified on the day of preparatin because he had to be down from the cross before sundown because the Passover began at sundown.

One thing to note. According to early church records, Mark was the translator that recorded Peter's account of Jesus. Peter, being from Galilee in the north, likely reckoned time as the Romans. In the first century, only Judah and Benjamin still held to the true Jewish day, where the day begins at sunset. The northern tribes all reckoned time as the Romans, where the day begins at midnight. It is complicated but we can discern what region each disciple came from by their gospel account. Anyhow, to Peter, and therefore Mark, the evening of the 14th would still be the 14th until midnight. This may explain the mix up.

ForHisglory
Feb 4th 2016, 07:41 AM
He was IMO quoting Jonah not describing the specific sequence. He was in fact in the grave for there days and 3 nights even if the nights came first.
So IF He is NOT being specific about sequence then why claim He is being specific about the length of time. The first (the sequence) He states, the second (the duration) He doesn't. So IF the specifics are important, then it is the sequence MORE than the duration.


As I read scripture, Leviticus 23:5 & 6, Passover is the 14th and the FUB begins on the 15th so passover is before the feast not after. The lambs are killed on the day of Preparation not on the first day of the feast. Either the translator of Mark is wrong or Leviticus written by God is wrong. As far as I know, Mark was not authorized to change the Passover from the 14th and start of Feast from the 15th. Do you think he did?
Or your understanding of Lev 23:5 & 6 is wrong, or the Jews themselves EXTENDED the meaning.
As per my quotes from Mark:
Mar 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"
That is a pretty unequivocal statement of how Mark and thus others he was writing for understood the FUB. Mark says the 1st day of the feast. Remember on this first day you are to remove yeast (leaven) from the house and it is a special day of preparation.
Now as to your verses:
Lev 23:5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
Note two things from this quote:
1) The angel doesn't Passover until AFTER the Passover Lamb is killed at twilight and then consumed on the 15th.
2) If it was the 15th when the FUB starts then Jesus would be eating His Passover Meal AFTER He was crucified.

IOW we need to understand what they DID first, BEFORE we try to analyse by what we think they should have done.

Exo 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.
Exo 12:7 "Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it.
Exo 12:8 They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Exo 12:9 Do not eat any of it raw or boiled in water, but roasted, its head with its legs and its inner parts.
Exo 12:10 And you shall let none of it remain until the morning; anything that remains until the morning you shall burn.
Exo 12:11 In this manner you shall eat it: with your belt fastened, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the LORD's Passover.
Exo 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD.
This connects the two making it ALL the Passover, but starting on the day the lambs are killed - which is what Mark does.


I think the difference comes from Mark suggesting that the Passover lamb is killed on the day of the feast which is simply wrong because Passover is before the first day of the feast. When Mark says it was 2 days until the Passover and the feast, you are saying it is 2 days until the feast but it is really 2 days until the Passover. The Passover and feast are linked and you don't have a feast without a Passover. Since they are clearly 2 separate days, he cannot mean 2 days until both days. I fully agree that Jesus was crucified on the day of preparatin because he had to be down from the cross before sundown because the Passover began at sundown.
No, what it shows is that Mark has the Feast starting ON the day the lambs are killed. Now when you use the reference Mark does, you see that Jesus ate His Passover Meal on the evening BEFORE the lambs were killed, which is our Wednesday evening, but the Jewish 14th Nisan (evening). He was then crucified on the Thursday day which is the same Jewish day (14th Nisan).
Mark's account doesn't allow Jesus to be crucified on the Wednesday day (nor actually do any of the others).

percho
Feb 4th 2016, 10:11 PM
So IF He is NOT being specific about sequence then why claim He is being specific about the length of time. The first (the sequence) He states, the second (the duration) He doesn't. So IF the specifics are important, then it is the sequence MORE than the duration.


Or your understanding of Lev 23:5 & 6 is wrong, or the Jews themselves EXTENDED the meaning.
As per my quotes from Mark:
Mar 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"
That is a pretty unequivocal statement of how Mark and thus others he was writing for understood the FUB. Mark says the 1st day of the feast. Remember on this first day you are to remove yeast (leaven) from the house and it is a special day of preparation.
Now as to your verses:
Lev 23:5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
Note two things from this quote:
1) The angel doesn't Passover until AFTER the Passover Lamb is killed at twilight and then consumed on the 15th.
2) If it was the 15th when the FUB starts then Jesus would be eating His Passover Meal AFTER He was crucified.

IOW we need to understand what they DID first, BEFORE we try to analyse by what we think they should have done.

Exo 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.
Exo 12:7 "Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it.
Exo 12:8 They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Exo 12:9 Do not eat any of it raw or boiled in water, but roasted, its head with its legs and its inner parts.
Exo 12:10 And you shall let none of it remain until the morning; anything that remains until the morning you shall burn.
Exo 12:11 In this manner you shall eat it: with your belt fastened, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the LORD's Passover.
Exo 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD.
This connects the two making it ALL the Passover, but starting on the day the lambs are killed - which is what Mark does.


No, what it shows is that Mark has the Feast starting ON the day the lambs are killed. Now when you use the reference Mark does, you see that Jesus ate His Passover Meal on the evening BEFORE the lambs were killed, which is our Wednesday evening, but the Jewish 14th Nisan (evening). He was then crucified on the Thursday day which is the same Jewish day (14th Nisan).
Mark's account doesn't allow Jesus to be crucified on the Wednesday day (nor actually do any of the others).

Speaking of Mark.

Mark 16:1 YLT And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him,
Luke 23:55,56 YLT and the women also who have come with him out of Galilee having followed after, beheld the tomb, and how his body was placed, and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command.

What Sabbath was pasted when they bought the spices? About the time of the spring equinox, do you think they bought them at night or during the day? What Sabbath was past? What Sabbath did they rest according to the command? Does it appear there was a work day between two days of rest? When did they go to anoint the body? At the time of their arrival, how long would it have been that the body had been dead?

ForHisglory
Feb 4th 2016, 11:40 PM
Speaking of Mark.

Mark 16:1 YLT And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him,
Luke 23:55,56 YLT and the women also who have come with him out of Galilee having followed after, beheld the tomb, and how his body was placed, and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command.

What Sabbath was pasted when they bought the spices? About the time of the spring equinox, do you think they bought them at night or during the day? What Sabbath was past? What Sabbath did they rest according to the command? Does it appear there was a work day between two days of rest? When did they go to anoint the body? At the time of their arrival, how long would it have been that the body had been dead?
The Sabbath is actually (from what I have read a plural), but the key is Saturday which finished at 6 pm. So that means they bought the spices on our Saturday evening (but for them the Sunday evening).
They had some spices and in the short time they had made them ready, but then stopped for the Sabbaths. They then bought more and then made them ready, bringing them early in the morning.

percho
Feb 5th 2016, 09:50 PM
The Sabbath is actually (from what I have read a plural), but the key is Saturday which finished at 6 pm. So that means they bought the spices on our Saturday evening (but for them the Sunday evening).
They had some spices and in the short time they had made them ready, but then stopped for the Sabbaths. They then bought more and then made them ready, bringing them early in the morning.


Actually the Sabbath of Mark 16:1 is singular. The Sabbath of Matt 28:1 is plural. The Sabbath of Luke 23:54 is singular and of 23:56 is singular. Would you think the Sabbath of Luke 23:54 is the same Sabbath of Luke 23:56 relative to them buying spices after a Sabbath singular in Mark 16:1 and then going to the tomb after Sabbaths, plural in Matt 28:1?

How could you buy and prepare (do work) after a Sabbath rest, and also after having worked on a work day rest a Sabbath unless the two rest days were separated by a work day?

After the Sabbaths were past arrive at the tomb, after having rested the weekly Sabbath, after having bought and prepared spices on a work day which followed the holy convocation, rest, Sabbath of the 15th the first day of unleavened bread.

ForHisglory
Feb 5th 2016, 10:49 PM
Actually the Sabbath of Mark 16:1 is singular. The Sabbath of Matt 28:1 is plural. The Sabbath of Luke 23:54 is singular and of 23:56 is singular. Would you think the Sabbath of Luke 23:54 is the same Sabbath of Luke 23:56 relative to them buying spices after a Sabbath singular in Mark 16:1 and then going to the tomb after Sabbaths, plural in Matt 28:1?
The Sabbath of Luke 23:54 is the same as that in verse 56. However that is not the same Sabbath as Mark 16:1. The Lukan Sabbath is the High Sabbath which is approaching (the Sabbath of the Feast). The Mark 16:1 Sabbath is the normal Saturday Sabbath.
The Matthew 28:1 Sabbath(s) encapsulates the two Sabbaths of Mark and Luke.


How could you buy and prepare (do work) after a Sabbath rest, and also after having worked on a work day rest a Sabbath unless the two rest days were separated by a work day?
After the Sabbaths were past arrive at the tomb, after having rested the weekly Sabbath, after having bought and prepared spices on a work day which followed the holy convocation, rest, Sabbath of the 15th the first day of unleavened bread.
Luke has them preparing what they have BEFORE the first Sabbath. Mark has them buying more AFTER the regular Sabbath is over.
There is no regular day in between. As soon as they have the spices they need, they hurry early the next day. This is how Mark reads, and Luke does not contradict that idea.

Aijalon
Feb 20th 2016, 04:37 AM
Eze 5:5 "Thus says the Lord GOD: This is Jerusalem. I have set her in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.
Eze 38:12 to seize spoil and carry off plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places that are now inhabited, and the people who were gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell at the center of the earth.

Neither state the heart of the earth. The middle or the center doesn't mean the heart of the ground. It is taking words out of context to make them fit something else entirely./quote]
Not really, the phrasing is different, but It's not a different meaning. "Center of the nations" and "center of the earth" are basically the same thing. They didn't think at all about the earth as a sphere, you need to think like them. The earth, to them, was flat, hence, the center was wherever the center of human activity is. And that has always been Jerusalem!

[QUOTE]I understand what you are claiming and I'll post the verses for clarity:
Mat 26:17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?"
Mat 26:18 He said, "Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, 'The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.'"
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover.

When does the first day of Unleavened bread start? It starts on the evening of the day in which the lambs are slaughtered. That is the day on which Jesus was killed. He ate the meal on that evening, and then was arrested in the middle of the night, and then crucified whilst the lambs were being slaughtered.
You're just flat wrong here man, you also seem to inadvertently leave off the Luke refrence, which is also critical. bad form bro.

The Feast of Unleavened Bread, is, By law, the 15th of the month, which is midnight. The evening, is, by the hebrew reckoning, actually the early morning, which is sundown (darkness) and up to day time (light). [ref: Genesis' evenings/mornings - eve is dark, morning is light]

For Jesus to be alive on the first day of ULB, means he's alive on the 15th, sometime. We happen to know that the Jews in that time simply called the "Passover" and the "Feast of Unleavened Bread" as the same thing. Therefore we know that the Lambs were slaghtered at the twilight of (eve-of) the 15th and that for the disciples to ask Jesus on the FIRST DAY OF ULB, means that they asked this on the 14th. Knowing then that he was alive and eating in the afternoon of the 14th, we clearly know he died on the 15th of the month.

The prophetic event corresponding to the moment when the lambs were slaughtered is Jesus praying in the garden whilst Judas was betraying him to the Sanhedrin for silver.

We also know that Jesus would not be in the grave for 72 hours, because rigor mortis sets in in 48 hours, and Jesus rose before decay could take place per the prophetic Psalm.

It is therefore a simple conclusion that he died on Friday the 15th of Nisan, and Rose on Sunday, the 17th of Nisan. His 3 day/3 night ministry in the "heart of the earth" is a poetic reference to the days he spent in Jerusalem at the Temple dealing with the sinful generation of pharisees.






Nope, though I follow your reasoning, your basis is solely upon the idea that He ate the Passover Meal of the 14th Nisan.
The problem you have is this:
Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats,
Exo 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.

This lamb is killed as the 14th ENDS, and is eaten on the 15th evening. However for Jesus to eat this lamb would mean that He was killed on the 15th day.
Instead He ate a Passover Meal with the disciples on the evening of the START of 14th Nisan.

Again, incorrect. You don't understand that the evening of the 15th is to mean the darkness. The Hebrews cooked the lamb and ate the lamb the same night as the passover.
The "eve" of the 15th is the end of 14th and the whole night thereof. You've gotten confused on what evening means. Their evening is actually our early-morning!

ForHisglory
Feb 20th 2016, 06:56 PM
Not really, the phrasing is different, but It's not a different meaning. "Center of the nations" and "center of the earth" are basically the same thing. They didn't think at all about the earth as a sphere, you need to think like them. The earth, to them, was flat, hence, the center was wherever the center of human activity is. And that has always been Jerusalem!
Nope, they didn't think the earth was flat. However even if they did, they believed the heart of the earth was beneath it and NOT meaning a 2D location.


You're just flat wrong here man, you also seem to inadvertently leave off the Luke refrence, which is also critical. bad form bro.
The Feast of Unleavened Bread, is, By law, the 15th of the month, which is midnight. The evening, is, by the hebrew reckoning, actually the early morning, which is sundown (darkness) and up to day time (light). [ref: Genesis' evenings/mornings - eve is dark, morning is light]
Huh?!? You say I missed what Luke put. I don't need to put every reference, but Luke wrote this:
Luk 22:1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover.
and also:
Luk 22:7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.

Here Luke equates the FUB with the Passover. We KNOW that the FUB is correctly the 15th and Passover the 14th, according to the Law - however BOTH Luke AND Mark have the FUB being connected with the Passover. Their words, not mine.


For Jesus to be alive on the first day of ULB, means he's alive on the 15th, sometime. We happen to know that the Jews in that time simply called the "Passover" and the "Feast of Unleavened Bread" as the same thing. Therefore we know that the Lambs were slaghtered at the twilight of (eve-of) the 15th and that for the disciples to ask Jesus on the FIRST DAY OF ULB, means that they asked this on the 14th. Knowing then that he was alive and eating in the afternoon of the 14th, we clearly know he died on the 15th of the month.
Not according to EITHER Mark NOR Luke. BOTH have the FUB (which you have as ULB) as being the same day as when the Passover is. So this simply requires Jesus to be alive on the 14th.


The prophetic event corresponding to the moment when the lambs were slaughtered is Jesus praying in the garden whilst Judas was betraying him to the Sanhedrin for silver.
We also know that Jesus would not be in the grave for 72 hours, because rigor mortis sets in in 48 hours, and Jesus rose before decay could take place per the prophetic Psalm.
Nope, Jesus was not praying at twilight! :huh:
Twilight is BEFORE sunset, IOW at the end of a day.
Jesus was praying AFTER He had eaten the evening meal, which by definition is AFTER twilight. The lambs are not slaughtered close to midnight!
Further, when have I stated Jesus was in the grave for 72 hours?
I have Him dying at 3pm on 14th, and rising at dawn on 17th, so closer to 63 hours. However decay doesn't mean rigor mortis.


It is therefore a simple conclusion that he died on Friday the 15th of Nisan, and Rose on Sunday, the 17th of Nisan. His 3 day/3 night ministry in the "heart of the earth" is a poetic reference to the days he spent in Jerusalem at the Temple dealing with the sinful generation of pharisees.
And an incorrect one. He died on 14th Nisan at the time the Lambs were being slaughtered on the Day of Passover. He rose on 17th Nisan on the Day when the Wave Offering was presented. It is not simply poetic reference to days spent in Jerusalem, as he was there on the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th, which is 4 days. If He was also there on the 14th then that would make 5 days, so your poetry is poor. The 3 days and nights was stated as a sign, and that is how long He was dead.


Again, incorrect. You don't understand that the evening of the 15th is to mean the darkness. The Hebrews cooked the lamb and ate the lamb the same night as the passover.
The "eve" of the 15th is the end of 14th and the whole night thereof. You've gotten confused on what evening means. Their evening is actually our early-morning!
I do understand the evening of the 15th is when the angel of death passes over. They were indeed commanded to cook and eat it before the night was over. Yes the eve of the 15th is of the same day as the 14th.
So Thursday day was when He was killed and our Thursday evening (their Friday) was when the Lamb was eaten. So He was the Good Friday Lamb, but was killed on Thursday 14th.
There is NO other way to get ALL 4 gospel accounts to match, regardless of the 3 days and nights, but simply in the 10th to 14th, which is a total of 5 days. The rest also supports this though. If you want to declare He didn't ride a colt into Jerusalem on the Sunday 10th Nisan, then please show how that is incorrect.

John 8:32
Feb 21st 2016, 12:13 AM
Nope, they didn't think the earth was flat. However even if they did, they believed the heart of the earth was beneath it and NOT meaning a 2D location.

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:




Huh?!? You say I missed what Luke put. I don't need to put every reference, but Luke wrote this:
Luk 22:1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover.
and also:
Luk 22:7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.

Here Luke equates the FUB with the Passover. We KNOW that the FUB is correctly the 15th and Passover the 14th, according to the Law - however BOTH Luke AND Mark have the FUB being connected with the Passover. Their words, not mine.

Exactly, the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread was connected with the Passover from the Exodus.



Not according to EITHER Mark NOR Luke. BOTH have the FUB (which you have as ULB) as being the same day as when the Passover is. So this simply requires Jesus to be alive on the 14th.

Christ was killed on the Passover, the Lamb of God, killed exactly on the 14th of Nisan, just as God said He would be...

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.

Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Exo 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
Exo 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Exo 12:9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
Exo 12:10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
Exo 12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.

at 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Mat 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
Mat 26:23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mat 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

And here Christ changes the symbols of the Passover to the Bread and Wine



Nope, Jesus was not praying at twilight! :huh:
Twilight is BEFORE sunset, IOW at the end of a day.
Jesus was praying AFTER He had eaten the evening meal, which by definition is AFTER twilight. The lambs are not slaughtered close to midnight!
Further, when have I stated Jesus was in the grave for 72 hours?
I have Him dying at 3pm on 14th, and rising at dawn on 17th, so closer to 63 hours. However decay doesn't mean rigor mortis.

Who cares what you count? Jesus said that He would be in the grave 72 hours, three days and three nights...

Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
Joh 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Jesus plainly shows there are 12 hours in the daylight portion of the day and that leaves 12 hours in the night (24 hours in a day).


And an incorrect one. He died on 14th Nisan at the time the Lambs were being slaughtered on the Day of Passover. He rose on 17th Nisan on the Day when the Wave Offering was presented. It is not simply poetic reference to days spent in Jerusalem, as he was there on the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th, which is 4 days. If He was also there on the 14th then that would make 5 days, so your poetry is poor. The 3 days and nights was stated as a sign, and that is how long He was dead.

He died on Wednesday at 3:00PM and was buried at/about sunset and was raised at/sunset Sabbath afternoon. He appeared to the Father on Sunday morning at/about 9:00 AM Sunday morning. Just as Lev 23:5, 9-14 shows...

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.

Joh 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Christ presented Himself to the Father as the perfect sacrifice for all mankind.


I do understand the evening of the 15th is when the angel of death passes over. They were indeed commanded to cook and eat it before the night was over. Yes the eve of the 15th is of the same day as the 14th.

You are kidding? If you had $14,000 in your bank account, would you agree it is the same as $15,000?



So Thursday day was when He was killed and our Thursday evening (their Friday) was when the Lamb was eaten. So He was the Good Friday Lamb, but was killed on Thursday 14th.

You are kidding, right? Thursday the 15th is the same as Wednesday the 14th?


There is NO other way to get ALL 4 gospel accounts to match, regardless of the 3 days and nights, but simply in the 10th to 14th, which is a total of 5 days. The rest also supports this though. If you want to declare He didn't ride a colt into Jerusalem on the Sunday 10th Nisan, then please show how that is incorrect.

To get all four Gospels gto match, Christ was killed on the Wednesday, the 14th and buried at sunset, then raised on Sabbath the 17th at sunset (three days and three nights) and then ascended to the Father on Sunday the 18th in the morning. Nothing else agrees with all the scriptures.

ForHisglory
Feb 21st 2016, 08:55 AM
Who cares what you count? Jesus said that He would be in the grave 72 hours, three days and three nights...
You may not care, but the post I responded to was addressed to what I had put. I highlighted that 3 days and 3 nights is NOT EXACTLY 72 hours, but is as stated 3 days and 3 nights.


Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
Joh 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Jesus plainly shows there are 12 hours in the daylight portion of the day and that leaves 12 hours in the night (24 hours in a day).
And?!? Why quote irrelevancies, would Jesus disagree there are 60 minutes in an hour? If Jesus wanted to say 72 hours then He would have said 72 hours.
He didn't, He said 3 days and 3 nights, therefore according to the measure He uses, so should we.


He died on Wednesday at 3:00PM and was buried at/about sunset and was raised at/sunset Sabbath afternoon. He appeared to the Father on Sunday morning at/about 9:00 AM Sunday morning. Just as Lev 23:5, 9-14 shows...

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. {/QUOTE]
Your first problem with the above is that as Sunday was the 10th, then Wednesday would be the 13th. Therefore your quote from Lev 23 disproves your claim.
Shall we count together?
Sun 10th
Mon 11th
Tue 12th
Wed 13th
Thu 14th.

[QUOTE]Joh 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Christ presented Himself to the Father as the perfect sacrifice for all mankind.
The presentation as sacrifice started on the 10th, and then was fulfilled on the 14th. The 17th was as a wave offering, which is a firstfruits (harvest) offering and NOT sacrifice.


You are kidding? If you had $14,000 in your bank account, would you agree it is the same as $15,000?
Not really sure how this relates to my point about evenings - however IF I had $14,956 in my account I would say I had $15K or IF I had $15,243 I would also say I had $15K. The KEY is in relation to the grouping of thousands, and therefore we normally round to the nearest or part of an amount. IF someone dies on Thursday at 23:12pm we would still say they died on Thursday even though they had only 48 minutes to go before Friday.


You are kidding, right? Thursday the 15th is the same as Wednesday the 14th?
As Thursday was the 14th, I am not sure where you are getting your dates from.
The point here though was that a Jewish day actually starts in the evening of what we consider the day before. A Jewish day starts in the evening. We read this in Genesis, Exodus and throughout the Torah and on through.
So Wednesday evening from 6pm is considered as Thursday for a Jew. So I am not kidding about anything, just plainly stating FACTS.


To get all four Gospels gto match, Christ was killed on the Wednesday, the 14th and buried at sunset, then raised on Sabbath the 17th at sunset (three days and three nights) and then ascended to the Father on Sunday the 18th in the morning. Nothing else agrees with all the scriptures.
Nope, that doesn't bring them into line. That doesn't work with Mark for one. Jesus was killed on Thursday 14th and raised AFTER the Sabbath on the 17th. He was raised at DAWN.
You try to perform grammatical gymnastics to make it fit an exact 72 hours. That doesn't work. Jesus also said 3 DAYS and NIGHTS, but you ignore this to make it fit your 72 hour paradigm (which isn't stated) and so make it 3 nights and days.
You ignore His triumphal entry on the first day (10th) which also disproves your "theory".
You ignore the days that Mark states in order which also does NOT allow it to be Wednesday.
The one thing you have right is that it was the 14th on which He was killed and the 17th on which He rose.

ForHisglory
Feb 21st 2016, 09:26 PM
One more thing to note:
Joh 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.
Joh 13:2 During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him,

This is the Last Supper eaten on the evening of the 14th Nisan (that is the same Jewish day, but in our reckoning the evening before). Note John states it is BEFORE the Feast of Passover, so NOT the evening when the Passover Lamb is eaten.

Aijalon
Feb 22nd 2016, 09:33 PM
Nope, they didn't think the earth was flat. However even if they did, they believed the heart of the earth was beneath it and NOT meaning a 2D location.
Evidence? Anyway, you're just being unreasonable difficult. The heart of something and center of something are the same thing. When Ezekiel says that God's people will dwell securely in the center of the earth... and that Jerusalem is the center of the earth, then the heart of the earth is Jerusalem. It's simpler than simple.



Huh?!? You say I missed what Luke put. I don't need to put every reference, but Luke wrote this:
Luk 22:1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover.
and also:
Luk 22:7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.


Here Luke equates the FUB with the Passover. We KNOW that the FUB is correctly the 15th and Passover the 14th, according to the Law - however BOTH Luke AND Mark have the FUB being connected with the Passover. Their words, not mine.


Precisely! And this means that the day that Jesus instructed the Disciples concerning the upper room and Passover meal was the 14th!!!!!!!

It could not be the 13th, and it could not be the 15th. Therefore he ATE PASSOVER (LAST SUPPER) ON THE 14th with absolute surety.

The lambs were slaughtered that evening (at dusk). We don't know if he stayed around to eat the lamb, but he ate the meal of bread. He departed for the garden of Gathsemane, and in my estimate he was praying -bitterly- amidst the herb garden and while the people at home at the lamb with "bitter herbs" according to the law. (Sorry, I misspoke as to the timing earlier, I didn't mean the lambs were slaughtered as he prayed, I meant that they were eaten over night as he prayed - my bad)






Not according to EITHER Mark NOR Luke. BOTH have the FUB (which you have as ULB) as being the same day as when the Passover is. So this simply requires Jesus to be alive on the 14th.

hmmm, yes. Alive and eating the first Passover evening meal, which begins in daytime on Nisan 14, and ends after twilight, early Nisan 15. So most likely he is eating the Passover lamb, after dusk, on the 15th (early morn, or, "eve")



Twilight is BEFORE sunset, IOW at the end of a day.
I believe that twilight corresponds to the last light of the day, therefore it is the exact same as the sunset.


Jesus was praying AFTER He had eaten the evening meal, which by definition is AFTER twilight.
which would correspond to the early morning (eve) of the 15th by their time.


I have Him dying at 3pm on 14th, and rising at dawn on 17th, so closer to 63 hours. However decay doesn't mean rigor mortis.
You flat out make no sense. How can he die on the 14th when he eats the Passover evening meal?

How can you not get this!? Passover evening is the early morning of the 15th, which is the reason why they called Passover the same thing as the Feast of Unleavened Bread!



And an incorrect one. He died on 14th Nisan at the time the Lambs were being slaughtered on the Day of Passover.
This could not possibly be the case in any scenario. Jesus died at about 3PM, the lambs would not be slaughtered until 6PM roughly. (Someone said that the slaughtering starts at 3pm because of so many lambs... which actually I don't have any evidence to accept that, and it would be against the law. Each family was to slaughter it's own lamb, or share it with their neighbor. There is no good reason why they would need to start 3 hours early.





He rose on 17th Nisan on the Day when the Wave Offering was presented. It is not simply poetic reference to days spent in Jerusalem, as he was there on the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th, which is 4 days. If He was also there on the 14th then that would make 5 days, so your poetry is poor. The 3 days and nights was stated as a sign, and that is how long He was dead.


I do understand the evening of the 15th is when the angel of death passes over. They were indeed commanded to cook and eat it before the night was over. Yes the eve of the 15th is of the same day as the 14th.
So Thursday day was when He was killed and our Thursday evening (their Friday) was when the Lamb was eaten. So He was the Good Friday Lamb, but was killed on Thursday 14th.
There is NO other way to get ALL 4 gospel accounts to match, regardless of the 3 days and nights, but simply in the 10th to 14th, which is a total of 5 days. The rest also supports this though. If you want to declare He didn't ride a colt into Jerusalem on the Sunday 10th Nisan, then please show how that is incorrect.
I don't think the idea that he travelled back to Bethany is true for every night, he went back and forth several times, but not every time. It seems to me that it is a prophetic certainty that the "lamb would come into the house" on the 10th of Nisan. Therefore the 9th of Nisan corresponds to the 6 days before Passover (Passover being the 15th, when the Passover technically happens)


When John's Gospel says that Jesus is being Crucified on the Day-of-Preparation, it means that the day of the week is a Friday.

Heres the sticky point - John adds that it is also the day of Passover, which is the 15th.

John 19:14
14 it was moreover Paraskeuē (Preparation-day) that passover

Paraskeuē means Friday.
http://biblehub.com/greek/3904.htm

It is not a verb as some suppose when they rephrase this verse to mean the day of preparing the Passover. THe Passover meal is a meal prepared on the 14th, but Passover is actually on the 15th.

ForHisglory
Feb 23rd 2016, 12:27 AM
Evidence? Anyway, you're just being unreasonable difficult. The heart of something and center of something are the same thing. When Ezekiel says that God's people will dwell securely in the center of the earth... and that Jerusalem is the center of the earth, then the heart of the earth is Jerusalem. It's simpler than simple.
Maybe simple, but also incorrect. When you say the heart of something you are normally referring to the center of a 3D object not a 2D one. Further the usage of the word is clarified by Peter:
Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
This is NOT referring to Jerusalem, but Hades, which was considered in the heart of the earth.


Precisely! And this means that the day that Jesus instructed the Disciples concerning the upper room and Passover meal was the 14th!!!!!!!
It could not be the 13th, and it could not be the 15th. Therefore he ATE PASSOVER (LAST SUPPER) ON THE 14th with absolute surety.
Either you are not following me, or I am not following you. Do you mean you are agreeing with me that Jesus ate His last supper on the evening of 14th Nisan?


The lambs were slaughtered that evening (at dusk). We don't know if he stayed around to eat the lamb, but he ate the meal of bread. He departed for the garden of Gathsemane, and in my estimate he was praying -bitterly- amidst the herb garden and while the people at home at the lamb with "bitter herbs" according to the law. (Sorry, I misspoke as to the timing earlier, I didn't mean the lambs were slaughtered as he prayed, I meant that they were eaten over night as he prayed - my bad)
Ah, you are confused. The lambs are NOT slaughtered THAT evening (14th), they are slaughtered BEFORE evening on the 14th.
Let me make it clear for you:
Sunday evening 10th
Sunday day 10th - Jesus rides in to Jerusalem (Mark 11:1)
Monday evening 11th - Goes to Bethany (Mark 11:11
Monday day 11th - Goes to Jerusalem (Mark 11:12) and curses fig tree (11:14), drives out people from the temple (11:15)
Tuesday evening 12th - Goes out of the city (to Bethany (11:19))
Tuesday day 12th - Goes to Jerusalem and they see the cursed fig tree (11:20 & 27), Olivet Discourse (13:1) 2 days BEFORE Passover and FUB (14:1)
Wednesday evening 13th - Back in Bethany (14:3)
Wednesday day 13th -
Thursday evening 14th - Go prepare Passover meal (14:12), eats the Meal that evening (14:17), goes to Garden of Gethsemane / Mount of Olives (14:26 & 32)
Thursday night 14th - betrayed taken to Priests etc. etc.
Thursday day 14th - 3pm Jesus dies (15:34)
So we find Jesus died at the very time that the Lambs are slaughtered on 14th Nisan.
So you are COMPLETELY incorrect to think that Jesus was amidst a herb garden while people at home eating bitter herbs. When Jesus was praying the lambs had NOT been killed yet, never mind roasted nor ready to be eaten.


hmmm, yes. Alive and eating the first Passover evening meal, which begins in daytime on Nisan 14, and ends after twilight, early Nisan 15. So most likely he is eating the Passover lamb, after dusk, on the 15th (early morn, or, "eve")
Sorry, doesn't fit with what the Gospels state and as I show above from Mark. The Passover Meal is eaten in the evening of the 15th, as the lambs are slaughtered at twilight in the day of the 14th.


I believe that twilight corresponds to the last light of the day, therefore it is the exact same as the sunset.
It is around that time, slightly before.


which would correspond to the early morning (eve) of the 15th by their time.
No late day time of the 14th. Lambs are KILLED on the 14th, cooked and eaten on the 15th. Twilight is BEFORE sunset.


You flat out make no sense. How can he die on the 14th when he eats the Passover evening meal?
He doesn't eat the Passover Lamb. This is why tradition has Him being killed on the 15th, due to NOT understanding when He was killed, nor what He ate. There was no lamb at His last supper.


How can you not get this!? Passover evening is the early morning of the 15th, which is the reason why they called Passover the same thing as the Feast of Unleavened Bread!
Now you are truly confused. Passover evening is NOT the early morning of the 15th, it is the evening of the 15th, but the Passover lamb is killed on the 14th as specified in Exodus. It is called the FUB because on the Day of Preparation (when the lamb is killed) they remove ALL leaven from the house.


This could not possibly be the case in any scenario. Jesus died at about 3PM, the lambs would not be slaughtered until 6PM roughly. (Someone said that the slaughtering starts at 3pm because of so many lambs... which actually I don't have any evidence to accept that, and it would be against the law. Each family was to slaughter it's own lamb, or share it with their neighbor. There is no good reason why they would need to start 3 hours early.
Do you know how many Jews went to Jerusalem for Passover. Don't confuse what happened the first time in Egypt with what happened since then. There were three occasions they were to go to Jerusalem - Passover (Easter), Shavuot (Pentecost) and Tabernacles (Harvest).
In 70 AD there were 1 million Jews in Jerusalem for Passover, and this when there was an army encamped around it. How many lambs do you think were slaughtered then? Josephus states on one year there were 265,000 lambs slaughtered for Passover. They estimate in that year there were as many as 3 million Jews near or around Jerusalem.
You might find this link useful:
http://www.keithhunt.com/Lambmany.html
It shows that many of the Lambs would have been slain in small groups and it would have been possible for Jesus to eat a Passover Meal on the 14th even if it was slain on the start of 14th rather than the end of 14th.


I don't think the idea that he travelled back to Bethany is true for every night, he went back and forth several times, but not every time. It seems to me that it is a prophetic certainty that the "lamb would come into the house" on the 10th of Nisan. Therefore the 9th of Nisan corresponds to the 6 days before Passover (Passover being the 15th, when the Passover technically happens)
Huh?!? He clearly does go back to Bethany. Not sure what you are on about in regards to 6 days nor what is technically the Passover.


When John's Gospel says that Jesus is being Crucified on the Day-of-Preparation, it means that the day of the week is a Friday.
Heres the sticky point - John adds that it is also the day of Passover, which is the 15th.
John 19:14
14 it was moreover Paraskeuē (Preparation-day) that passover
Paraskeuē means Friday.
http://biblehub.com/greek/3904.htm
A Preparation Day is ANY day before a Sabbath which is spent in preparation. the 14th Nisan was a Preparation Day for the removal of leaven and for killing the Lamb which is to be eaten on the 15th. It isn't a sticky point for me. I do agree that the 15th was a Friday.


It is not a verb as some suppose when they rephrase this verse to mean the day of preparing the Passover. THe Passover meal is a meal prepared on the 14th, but Passover is actually on the 15th.
Nope the Passover is the 14th - that is the killing of the Passover Lamb - the angel passed over that evening though, which is the 15th.

Tony P
Feb 23rd 2016, 11:39 PM
Jesus said that He would be in the grave 72 hours, three days and three nights...

This is a modern legalistic view that was completely foreign to the first century.

Aijalon
Feb 24th 2016, 02:40 AM
Maybe simple, but also incorrect. When you say the heart of something you are normally referring to the center of a 3D object not a 2D one.
What you just said is no justification at all for your point. You take it as a 3D issue, but they in their time did not, or do you have a good piece of evidence.
They believed Hell was below the earth, it had nothing to do with 3 dimensional space. When did the heart of the earth become a scriptural reference to hell, perhaps I missed it (seriously, I may have).


Further the usage of the word is clarified by Peter:
Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
This is NOT referring to Jerusalem, but Hades, which was considered in the heart of the earth.
Where in scripture is Hades also relegated to the heart of the earth?


Either you are not following me, or I am not following you. Do you mean you are agreeing with me that Jesus ate His last supper on the evening of 14th Nisan?
Maybe something got mixed up, Ithought I had you earlier saying that Jesus was crucified at the time the lambs were slaughtered, but that means he would have had to die on the 14th at dusk. Knowing he was crucified on the 15th, at 3 PM, we know that cannot be.



Thursday evening 14th - Go prepare Passover meal (14:12), eats the Meal that evening (14:17), goes to Garden of Gethsemane / Mount of Olives (14:26 & 32)
Thursday night 14th - betrayed taken to Priests etc. etc.
Thursday day 14th - 3pm Jesus dies (15:34)
I see the problem. In the Garden of Gathesemane it is late night, it is the early morning (eve) - it is the 15th, it is Friday by the reckoning of the Jews. You have it all totally wrong. It cannot be thursday for two evenings, as you have it.

THe disciples came to Jesus on the day (light time of day) and he directed them he would eat the passover lamb. How on earth can he eat the passover lamb and also die on the same day!!!!?????? :note:


So we find Jesus died at the very time that the Lambs are slaughtered on 14th Nisan.
So you are COMPLETELY incorrect to think that Jesus was amidst a herb garden while people at home eating bitter herbs. When Jesus was praying the lambs had NOT been killed yet, never mind roasted nor ready to be eaten.
False, the lambs are killed at dusk, the time between 14th, and 15th, they are roasted and eaten at night time, which is the 15th by Hebrew dating. Leviticus is pretty clear about this. The lambs are killed at the last light of the 14th, eaten on the 15th. THat is clearly the time when Jesus prays.


Sorry, doesn't fit with what the Gospels state and as I show above from Mark. The Passover Meal is eaten in the evening of the 15th, as the lambs are slaughtered at twilight in the day of the 14th.
I cannot even speak this makes no sense whatsoever.




Now you are truly confused. Passover evening is NOT the early morning of the 15th, it is the evening of the 15th,
You need a do over. GO to Genesis, read it. It shows you that a 24 hour day is first the dark (eve) and second the morn (light). Evening, is therefore the EXACT same thing as the morning. I realize that you cannot fathom this at this time, but there really is no such thing as a Hebrew "evening" as you imagine it.

The evening is in fact, a Hebrew morning. Wrap your head around this, and get back to me.


"and there was evening and morning, the first "day". Eveing is the first part of a day, not the last.

Blessings.

ForHisglory
Feb 24th 2016, 10:27 PM
What you just said is no justification at all for your point. You take it as a 3D issue, but they in their time did not, or do you have a good piece of evidence.
They believed Hell was below the earth, it had nothing to do with 3 dimensional space. When did the heart of the earth become a scriptural reference to hell, perhaps I missed it (seriously, I may have).
When you say Hell, don't you mean Hades which is known as Sheol and is where dead people go. So now you are showing that people believed there was somewhere under the earth which is the heart of the earth.


Where in scripture is Hades also relegated to the heart of the earth?
Read the OT - it is called Sheol.


Maybe something got mixed up, Ithought I had you earlier saying that Jesus was crucified at the time the lambs were slaughtered, but that means he would have had to die on the 14th at dusk. Knowing he was crucified on the 15th, at 3 PM, we know that cannot be.
Nope, you are mixed up, and badly at that.
Perhaps I need to put the hours of the day:
Wednesday 13th 17:59 This is the end of this day.
Thursday 14th 18:00 This is the start of a new day (evening)
Thursday 14th 19:00
Thursday 14th 20:00 Sometime this evening Jesus eats His Passover Meal
Thursday 14th 21:00
Thursday 14th 22:00 Sometime this night Jesus goes to the Garden of Gethsemane
Thursday 14th 23:00
Thursday 14th 00:00 Sometime around now Jesus is betrayed by Judas and taken to the High Priest
Thursday 14th 01:00
Thursday 14th 02:00
Thursday 14th 03:00
Thursday 14th 04:00 Sometime around now Peter betrays Jesus three times and then the cock crows.
Thursday 14th 05:00
Thursday 14th 06:00 This is the End of the night and the start of the daytime portion of a Jewish day. Sometime around now He is taken to Pilate
Thursday 14th 07:00
Thursday 14th 08:00
Thursday 14th 09:00
Thursday 14th 10:00
Thursday 14th 11:00
Thursday 14th 12:00
Thursday 14th 13:00
Thursday 14th 14:00
Thursday 14th 15:00 Jesus dies.
Thursday 14th 16:00
Thursday 14th 17:00 The lambs must be slaughtered BEFORE the end of this day.
Thursday 14th 17:59 The end of the 14th, the 15th is about to start, the first day of the FUB
Friday 15th 18:00 The start of the next day. Jesus is ALREADY buried in the tomb. This is the High Sabbath when the Lamb is eaten.
Friday 15th 19:00
Friday 15th 20:00
Friday 15th 21:00


I see the problem. In the Garden of Gathesemane it is late night, it is the early morning (eve) - it is the 15th, it is Friday by the reckoning of the Jews. You have it all totally wrong. It cannot be thursday for two evenings, as you have it.
I don;t have it being Thursday for two evenings.


THe disciples came to Jesus on the day (light time of day) and he directed them he would eat the passover lamb. How on earth can he eat the passover lamb and also die on the same day!!!!?????? :note:
Two things:
1) There is ZERO mention of a Passover Lamb being eaten or prepared.
2) You have Jesus dying on the Day when the Lamb had already been eaten IOW AFTER the Passover, however we are told it was on the Day of Preparation He died, which is NOT a Sabbath (Feast Day). Note that the day the Lamb is eaten IS a Sabbath (not meaning Saturday, but a day when no work is done).
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.
The 15th IS the 1st day of the FUB and is a day for a holy convocation - it is a Sabbath Day.
So the 15th CANNOT be the day when Jesus was crucified. The ONLY question is whether the 14th is a Thursday or a Friday. It is a Thursday as we KNOW the 10th was a Sunday:
Joh 12:1 Six days before the Passover, Jesus therefore came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.
So Jesus went to Bethany on the 8th or 9th (depending on how you count the 6 days) The 8th was the Sabbath.


False, the lambs are killed at dusk, the time between 14th, and 15th, they are roasted and eaten at night time, which is the 15th by Hebrew dating. Leviticus is pretty clear about this. The lambs are killed at the last light of the 14th, eaten on the 15th. THat is clearly the time when Jesus prays.
Sorry, Leviticus does NOT state what time the Lamb is to be slaughtered, rather it states that twilight on the 14th IS the Passover. There is evidence that the Galileans killed their Lambs on the Thursday evening and ate it then.
However it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to be killed on the 15th as that was a Sabbath and we are told that it was the day BEFORE when Jesus was crucified.
Joh 19:31 Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away.
John tells us that Jesus was crucified on the 14th here. The 15th is a high day.


I cannot even speak this makes no sense whatsoever.
As it makes 100% sense, I am not sure what your difficulty is. Thursday twilight is BEFORE Friday evening (NOT before Thursday evening).


You need a do over. GO to Genesis, read it. It shows you that a 24 hour day is first the dark (eve) and second the morn (light). Evening, is therefore the EXACT same thing as the morning. I realize that you cannot fathom this at this time, but there really is no such thing as a Hebrew "evening" as you imagine it.
The evening is in fact, a Hebrew morning. Wrap your head around this, and get back to me.
Wow, now I know why you are so confused.
I follow what you claim and you are so wrong it hurts.
A 24 hour days is indeed starting with the evening. That doesn't somehow change the evening to meaning morning. A Jewish day starts at 6pm (in the evening) it goes through the night and then onto the morning ends the following day at 17:59:59.
So a Jewish day has 6 hours in one of our days. So when we say it is Thursday 13:00 / 1pm, it is also Thursday 1pm in a Jewish day. When we say it is Thursday 19:00 / 7pm, it is Friday according to the Jewish time.
Get your head around that and you might then start following what is stated.
Mar 15:25 And it was the third hour when they crucified him.
This is 9am.
Mar 15:33 And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Mar 15:35 And some of the bystanders hearing it said, "Behold, he is calling Elijah."
Mar 15:36 And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down."
Mar 15:37 And Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last.
Here darkness comes at midday and Jesus dies at 3pm.


"and there was evening and morning, the first "day". Eveing is the first part of a day, not the last.
Blessings.
It is indeed evening followed by morning, not as we have it, midnight to midnight.

CurtTN
Feb 25th 2016, 03:00 AM
To get all four Gospels gto match, Christ was killed on the Wednesday, the 14th and buried at sunset, then raised on Sabbath the 17th at sunset (three days and three nights) and then ascended to the Father on Sunday the 18th in the morning. Nothing else agrees with all the scriptures.

As I am sure you are beginning to see your logic is lost here even though you are absolutely correct.

ForHisglory
Feb 25th 2016, 02:53 PM
As I am sure you are beginning to see your logic is lost here even though you are absolutely correct.
Not lost, proven wrong. It doesn't fit for an EXACT 72 hours. And his entire point is that it IS exact. So remove that and he is demonstrably wrong.
However I have put verses which also show he is wrong for other reasons too.
Finally, Jesus said day and night where as he claims night and day, which shows he is ignoring what Jesus actually said.

John 8:32
Feb 25th 2016, 08:13 PM
This is a modern legalistic view that was completely foreign to the first century.

Uh, what are you talking about? Christ says there are twelve hours in the daylight portion of the day...

Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
Joh 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

He seemed to know how man hours there were in a day but then again, since He created all things including the days (see Gen 1) I would suspect that He should know. So I suppose if taking Christ at His word is being legalistic, call me a legalist.

John 8:32
Feb 25th 2016, 08:15 PM
As I am sure you are beginning to see your logic is lost here even though you are absolutely correct.

Not my logic that is lost...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Today is just not their day.

ForHisglory
Feb 27th 2016, 11:17 AM
Not my logic that is lost...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Today is just not their day.
A sign is EXACTLY that a SIGN. IOW it is meant to be SEEN and understood. Whether you pay attention to the sign or not is down to you.

ForHisglory
Feb 27th 2016, 11:25 AM
Uh, what are you talking about? Christ says there are twelve hours in the daylight portion of the day...

Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
Joh 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

He seemed to know how man hours there were in a day but then again, since He created all things including the days (see Gen 1) I would suspect that He should know. So I suppose if taking Christ at His word is being legalistic, call me a legalist.
Christ KNOWING that there are 12 hours in the day means, that half is day and half night. Therefore in the passage you quote, a person should walk in the light NOT in the dark. Jesus was NOT making a point specifically about how long a day was, as everyone KNEW this. He was making a point that the day has light and while it lasts a person walks in that.

Notice Jesus didn't say the night is 12 hours, for that wasn't His focus.
Further, Jesus didn't say 3 days of 12 hours and 3 nights of 12 hours, but used it as a straight forward time - 3 days and 3 nights, therefore it is about having a portion of each. To say it MUST BE EXACTLY 12 hours of day and 12 hours of night for each, means that Jesus would have to die AT DAWN, for you then to have 12 hours of day. I notice though that you don't stick to what He says EXACTLY, but fudge it and twist it.
So we have a choice EITHER to take Jesus' words EXACTLY (legalistically) as 12 hours day, then 12 hours night, then 12 hours day, 12 hours night, then 12 hours day and finish with 12 hours night, OR we take it as stated a day portion then a night, then a day, then a night, then a day and finally a night.
Your theory does NOT match with the first, but mine matches with the second.
So I'll stick with mine UNTIL you can show how yours really does match the first. I know you can't so I won't be holding my breath.

percho
Feb 27th 2016, 06:05 PM
Christ KNOWING that there are 12 hours in the day means, that half is day and half night. Therefore in the passage you quote, a person should walk in the light NOT in the dark. Jesus was NOT making a point specifically about how long a day was, as everyone KNEW this. He was making a point that the day has light and while it lasts a person walks in that.

Notice Jesus didn't say the night is 12 hours, for that wasn't His focus.
Further, Jesus didn't say 3 days of 12 hours and 3 nights of 12 hours, but used it as a straight forward time - 3 days and 3 nights, therefore it is about having a portion of each. To say it MUST BE EXACTLY 12 hours of day and 12 hours of night for each, means that Jesus would have to die AT DAWN, for you then to have 12 hours of day. I notice though that you don't stick to what He says EXACTLY, but fudge it and twist it.
So we have a choice EITHER to take Jesus' words EXACTLY (legalistically) as 12 hours day, then 12 hours night, then 12 hours day, 12 hours night, then 12 hours day and finish with 12 hours night, OR we take it as stated a day portion then a night, then a day, then a night, then a day and finally a night.
Your theory does NOT match with the first, but mine matches with the second.
So I'll stick with mine UNTIL you can show how yours really does match the first. I know you can't so I won't be holding my breath.

and began to teach them, that it behoveth the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again; Mark 8:31 YLT
for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. Matt 12:40 YLT

I would be interested to know, your opinion, as to what hour of what day Jesus died and also what hour of what day, one through seven, Jesus was made alive and came forth from the sealed tomb?

For instance we know from scripture that the Son of Man died about 3 pm or the ninth hour on the 14th day of first month and on the first day of the week while it was still dark the tomb was empty.

Darkness from sixth hour to ninth hour. Ummmmm. Hours, hours hours. Well, maybe they don't count, who knows!

Tony P
Feb 27th 2016, 06:52 PM
and began to teach them, that it behoveth the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again; Mark 8:31 YLT
for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. Matt 12:40 YLT

I would be interested to know, your opinion, as to what hour of what day Jesus died and also what hour of what day, one through seven, Jesus was made alive and came forth from the sealed tomb?

For instance we know from scripture that the Son of Man died about 3 pm or the ninth hour on the 14th day of first month and on the first day of the week while it was still dark the tomb was empty.

Darkness from sixth hour to ninth hour. Ummmmm. Hours, hours hours. Well, maybe they don't count, who knows!

The historical record can settle this debate. Although some have preconceived ideas that are forced into scripture. As in, three days ans three nights being exactly 72 hours. That is a possibility of course, but not the only possibility. Remember, Jesus did not exist in a vacuum. He is a real person who walked on this earth. The same earth with recorded history. Here is a brief review of the historical record:

First we need to know the year of crucifixion.

In Matthew 27:45, 51 “Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land...Then, behold, the veil of the Temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split”

This was a three hour period in the middle of the day when Jesus was crucified. The sixth hour to the ninth hour is 12:00PM to 3:00PM. Hours of the day began at sunrise, or around 6:00 AM. This is a rather preposterous claim, unless it was true. Matthew compounds this, by writing that an earthquake occurred when Jesus died. If he were faking his account, he surely would not have included such an enormous statements. The whole world went dark for three hours in the middle of the day. Really? Yes, really. It did happen, and it was recorded by history.

A Greek historian named Phlegon Trallianus wrote a 16 volume history on the Olympiads during the reign of emperor Hadrian. This work was completed in 137 AD. Unfortunately, his original writing has been largely lost to history. However, several other historians have referenced his work. One of them was Eusebius of Caesarea. In his work, Chronicle, he sites Phelgon's 13th volume of Olympiads, which states:

“In the fourth year, however, of the 202nd Olympiad, a failure of the sun happened, greater and more excellent than any that had happened before it; at the sixth hour, day turned into night, so that stars were seen in the sky, and an earthquake in Bithynia toppled many buildings in the city of Nicaea.”

Nicaea is more than a 1000 miles from Jerusalem. Apparently, both the failure of the sun and the earthquake were experienced by a large swath of the earth. The fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad is July 1, 32 to July 1, 33 AD. It is well documented that Jesus was crucified at Passover. The only Passover during this year was in the spring of 33 AD.

The earthquake was recorded in the Israel Exploration Journal. Pic from that Journal below:

Click image for larger version.

http://bibleforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12993&stc=1

These events are well attested in numerous historical records. This journal includes damage to the Temple, just as Matthew recorded. So the year was indeed 33 AD.

Now we need to determine the exact day. It is well documented in the gospels that Jesus was crucified on Nisan 14, Passover. When was Nisan 14 in 33 AD? We could go to a calendar convertor, but I have found errors in them. The problem lies with how months begin. A new moon must be sighted. If it was cloudy on the night the month wouldn't begin until they saw the moon the next night. Therefore, we really need to find the new moon records from that year.

The only record that I could find is located in the Queen's Nautical Almanac in England. They have the recorded new moon dates as seen from Baghdad. (Jerusalem would be 37 minutes ahead of Baghdad) Adjusted for the 37 minute difference, the new moon in Jerusalem was observable just after 1:00PM on March 17, 33 AD. (Gregorian) Therefore, that evening would begin the new month. (Jewish days begin at sunset) Counting forward from there we can know with certainty that Nisan 14 began at sunset March 30. Jesus was crucified in the morning and died around 3:00PM. This would fall on our March 31. (Still Nisan 14 on Jewish calendar)

Now taking that info we can plug the date into a calendar calculator to figure the day of the week. March 31, 33 AD was a Thursday. (The Gregorian calendar is scientific and can easily be calculated, unlike the Jewish calendar which is based on lunar sightings)

So there we have it. 3:00PM Thursday, March 31, 33 AD is the time Jesus was crucified. Using the historical record helps to decipher some of the common cultural misunderstandings, we can arrive at the same result recorded in Matt 12:40. Jesus was raised in the predawn hours of Sunday. This is three days and three nights in the Jewish reckoning of time. A deeper study of the first century would help to further explain their mindset, but much harder for me to explain here. The first century mindset is harder to grasp since it is so different than the way we view time today. So, I just used the historical record to support Matt 12:40.

Therefore, the 72 hours argument is misguided. It makes sense in our modern world, but not in the first century. I think it is better to try to understand scripture with an open mind rather than beginning with a set of conclusions, and then forcing the scriptures into that box. Hope this helps!

Tony P
Feb 27th 2016, 07:07 PM
Christ KNOWING that there are 12 hours in the day means, that half is day and half night. Therefore in the passage you quote, a person should walk in the light NOT in the dark. Jesus was NOT making a point specifically about how long a day was, as everyone KNEW this. He was making a point that the day has light and while it lasts a person walks in that.

Notice Jesus didn't say the night is 12 hours, for that wasn't His focus.
Further, Jesus didn't say 3 days of 12 hours and 3 nights of 12 hours, but used it as a straight forward time - 3 days and 3 nights, therefore it is about having a portion of each. To say it MUST BE EXACTLY 12 hours of day and 12 hours of night for each, means that Jesus would have to die AT DAWN, for you then to have 12 hours of day. I notice though that you don't stick to what He says EXACTLY, but fudge it and twist it.
So we have a choice EITHER to take Jesus' words EXACTLY (legalistically) as 12 hours day, then 12 hours night, then 12 hours day, 12 hours night, then 12 hours day and finish with 12 hours night, OR we take it as stated a day portion then a night, then a day, then a night, then a day and finally a night.
Your theory does NOT match with the first, but mine matches with the second.
So I'll stick with mine UNTIL you can show how yours really does match the first. I know you can't so I won't be holding my breath.

There is further evidence to support your claim. For a moment let's assume the Wednesday crucifixion. Jesus' triumphal entry was on the fifth day prior to his death. (John 12) That puts his donkey ride into Jerusalem on Saturday. This would be impossible because of the Sabbath laws in scripture about carrying load through the city gates on the Sabbath. This wasn't a Pharisee addition to the Sabbath law. It is plainly written in scripture. Jesus was sinless. Therefore, he could not have ridden the donkey on Saturday.

Some folks just cannot see that forcing their 72 hour mindset into scripture may be an incorrect premise to begin with. Scripture cannot be forced into a box if we expect to learn from it. We should not instruct the Bible. Rather, we should be instructed by it.

ForHisglory
Feb 27th 2016, 10:54 PM
and began to teach them, that it behoveth the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again; Mark 8:31 YLT
for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. Matt 12:40 YLT

I would be interested to know, your opinion, as to what hour of what day Jesus died and also what hour of what day, one through seven, Jesus was made alive and came forth from the sealed tomb?

For instance we know from scripture that the Son of Man died about 3 pm or the ninth hour on the 14th day of first month and on the first day of the week while it was still dark the tomb was empty.

Darkness from sixth hour to ninth hour. Ummmmm. Hours, hours hours. Well, maybe they don't count, who knows!
Well as He died at 3pm and known to be risen at sunrise (around 6am), then we have:
Thursday 3pm to Friday 3pm 24 hours
Friday 3pm to Saturday 3pm 24 hours
Saturday 3pm to Sunday 6am 15 hours
So a maximum of 63 hours, maybe a bit less - if we count from burial, or if He rose shortly before sunrise.

John 8:32
Feb 29th 2016, 09:04 PM
A sign is EXACTLY that a SIGN. IOW it is meant to be SEEN and understood. Whether you pay attention to the sign or not is down to you.

The sign was three days and three nights, so the counterfeit is Good Friday evening to Ishtar Sunday morning. A counterfeit sign is not the sign the real Christ gave.

ForHisglory
Feb 29th 2016, 11:29 PM
The sign was three days and three nights, so the counterfeit is Good Friday evening to Ishtar Sunday morning. A counterfeit sign is not the sign the real Christ gave.
Sorry, there was no counterfeit sign. Further there is no Ishtar Sunday. That is not the source of the word Easter.
However the sign was three DAYS and three NIGHTS. You come up with a different sign of three NIGHTS and three DAYS. IOW you have it backwards on top of your other errors.

rstrats
Oct 31st 2017, 12:18 PM
Tony P,
re: "So there we have it. 3:00PM Thursday, March 31, 33 AD is the time Jesus was crucified."

Mark 15:25 says: "Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him." I believe the "third hour" is referring to around 9 am as opposed to 3 pm.

CadyandZoe
Oct 31st 2017, 12:52 PM
Tony P,
re: "So there we have it. 3:00PM Thursday, March 31, 33 AD is the time Jesus was crucified."

Mark 15:25 says: "Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him." I believe the "third hour" is referring to around 9 am as opposed to 3 pm.I believe that's right. The "hours" began roughly around the time of sunrise. So the first "hour" would have been around 6 am.

randyk
Nov 2nd 2017, 05:37 PM
I have been doing a lot of research lately regarding Matty 12:40

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

It all started with a Video that I saw around Christmas called the Bethlemhem Star. In short the video gives evidence that Jesus was Crucified on Friday and Rose on early Sunday morning. I don't so much want to discuss the video as much as I want to discuss what the Bible says. I always had a problem with a Friday Crucificion in light of Matt 12:40 because you can't get three days and three nights from Fri to Sun.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other than I know the Bible must be true. I have seen eveidence from both sides of the debate but want to see what some of you may have to say about it.

I did a search and didn't see anything so I apologize if this has been discussed before.

[I know this is an old post.]
It isn't wrong to repeat topics, because there are always new visitors. This is a good one, and I don't have a solid position myself. I can go either with the death on Thursday or with the death on Friday. If it is a death on Thursday perhaps we can get "3 days and 3 nights." But being a traditionalist I like the Friday death, and recognize Jesus didn't literally experience "3 days and 3 nights."

So how would I explain this? I would have to say that Jesus was using "3 days and 3 nights" as a metaphor for his resurrection on the 3rd day. In other words, Jonah really did spend 3 days and 3 nights in the ocean. But Jesus metaphorically experienced this in less than 3 full days, paralleling Jonah's experience roughly.

It's like saying "I had my Egypt experience when I spent 30 years doing time in prison for a crime I didn't commit." It wasn't literally a 40 year experience like Israel experienced when coming out of Egypt. But it was a comparable experience, similar to what Israel went through for 40 years.

But to be truthful, I don't really know! Good question.

Tony P
Nov 3rd 2017, 03:17 AM
Tony P,
re: "So there we have it. 3:00PM Thursday, March 31, 33 AD is the time Jesus was crucified."

Mark 15:25 says: "Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him." I believe the "third hour" is referring to around 9 am as opposed to 3 pm.

Yes, you are right. I was referring to time of death rather than the time the nails were driven. I should have clarified.

CadyandZoe
Nov 3rd 2017, 01:09 PM
[I know this is an old post.]
It isn't wrong to repeat topics, because there are always new visitors. This is a good one, and I don't have a solid position myself. I can go either with the death on Thursday or with the death on Friday. If it is a death on Thursday perhaps we can get "3 days and 3 nights." But being a traditionalist I like the Friday death, and recognize Jesus didn't literally experience "3 days and 3 nights."

So how would I explain this? I would have to say that Jesus was using "3 days and 3 nights" as a metaphor for his resurrection on the 3rd day. In other words, Jonah really did spend 3 days and 3 nights in the ocean. But Jesus metaphorically experienced this in less than 3 full days, paralleling Jonah's experience roughly.

It's like saying "I had my Egypt experience when I spent 30 years doing time in prison for a crime I didn't commit." It wasn't literally a 40 year experience like Israel experienced when coming out of Egypt. But it was a comparable experience, similar to what Israel went through for 40 years.

But to be truthful, I don't really know! Good question.

Personally, I prefer the Biblical text over tradition.

randyk
Nov 6th 2017, 03:33 AM
Personally, I prefer the Biblical text over tradition.

Is that like saying you prefer the Holy Spirit over dead men's bones? ;) Some things are not that clear. I'm not stating my preference for tradition simply because I value tradition over truth. Sometimes the traditional view has indeed held to the truth rather than innovative new approaches. Again, I just don't know. It isn't as clear to me as it is to you.

CadyandZoe
Nov 6th 2017, 12:05 PM
Is that like saying you prefer the Holy Spirit over dead men's bones? ;) Some things are not that clear. I'm not stating my preference for tradition simply because I value tradition over truth. Sometimes the traditional view has indeed held to the truth rather than innovative new approaches. Again, I just don't know. It isn't as clear to me as it is to you.

If you are open to a bit of advice from someone who loves the saints and the truth, here is what I think you should do. Continue to believe the doctrines you have learned growing up but don't hold them with a firm grip. Explore the Biblical basis for these doctrines and if, someday, you find that the Bible does not support one or more of your doctrines, then let it/them go.

I personally have explored the doctrine of original sin and have found that this doctrine is not Biblical. So I let it go. I have done this with many doctrines; some I have kept; others I have let go. In many cases, I have found that the errant doctrine was based on a philosophical prejudice of the one who first proposed the doctrine and accepted by his or her peers who also held that same prejudice.

Orthodoxy is antithetical to this process. It fixes a set of doctrines in concrete, not allowing them to be questioned or examined in light of the scriptures. In fact, many of the ultra-orthodox among us recommend that if orthodoxy disagrees with our interpretation of the Bible, we need to change our interpretation to match our orthodoxy. This is sinful in my opinion, not allowing the believer to disengage from errant philosophical prejudices.

You may find tradition to be helpful, even comfortable, and even safe. But I have found that discovering the actual truth is neither safe nor comfortable.

Best wishes.

CadyandZoe
Nov 6th 2017, 12:48 PM
A couple of things to bear in mind with regard to time in the New Testament.

The day was divided into twelve hours, with noon as the sixth hour. (John 11:9) The night was divided into four watches. Jesus says he might come on the second or third watch. (Luke 12:38) He walked on the water at the fourth watch (Mathew 14:25, Mark 6:48)

The New Testament calendar day, based on Jewish cultural practices, begins at twilight on one day, and ends at twilight the following day. Suppose, for instance, that Nissan 14 fell on on a Thursday some hypothetical year. In that case Nissan 14 begins at twilight on Wednesday and ends at twilight on Thursday of that week. An example of this is found in Exodus 12 where Moses instructs Israel concerning the Passover. The first day of Passover is on the fifteenth of the first month and so the Passover lamp is killed at twilight of the fourteenth day of the month. (Exodus 12:6)

Also, when a speaker or writer counts days and nights based on the calendar day, when the actual duration of the event is not important, a partial day counts as a whole day. So for instance, if Jesus was buried at the ninth hour on Thursday and rose before the first hour on Sunday, this would be counted as three days and three nights though the actual duration of time was 2-1/2 days and three nights.

Given all the clues in the text, I believe that Jesus died and was buried at the ninth hour on Thursday and rose from the dead just before dawn on Sunday Morning: three days, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday; and three nights, Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night.

randyk
Nov 6th 2017, 03:32 PM
If you are open to a bit of advice from someone who loves the saints and the truth, here is what I think you should do. Continue to believe the doctrines you have learned growing up but don't hold them with a firm grip. Explore the Biblical basis for these doctrines and if, someday, you find that the Bible does not support one or more of your doctrines, then let it/them go.

I personally have explored the doctrine of original sin and have found that this doctrine is not Biblical. So I let it go. I have done this with many doctrines; some I have kept; others I have let go. In many cases, I have found that the errant doctrine was based on a philosophical prejudice of the one who first proposed the doctrine and accepted by his or her peers who also held that same prejudice.

Orthodoxy is antithetical to this process. It fixes a set of doctrines in concrete, not allowing them to be questioned or examined in light of the scriptures. In fact, many of the ultra-orthodox among us recommend that if orthodoxy disagrees with our interpretation of the Bible, we need to change our interpretation to match our orthodoxy. This is sinful in my opinion, not allowing the believer to disengage from errant philosophical prejudices.

You may find tradition to be helpful, even comfortable, and even safe. But I have found that discovering the actual truth is neither safe nor comfortable.

Best wishes.

I appreciate the personal note, but I hold to "original sin" not due to some "religious" commitment to tradition, but rather out of personal experience and personal conviction. It isn't "orthodoxy" that determines my view, but my own philosophical approach to life.

In my philosophy personal experience plays a strong role--I got this from Watchman Nee, a Chinese gentleman, whose books were sold here in the U.S.

I also base my philosophy on empiricism, the idea that things must be observable. I do observe sin in myself and in others. Hence, my belief in Christian grace is just as strong as my belief in inherited sin.

Finally, I believe in rational thought, the idea that things must be based on a correlation between human reason and divine revelation. So revelation does not usurp rational thought, but both must be in agreement.

This all adds up to my following independent thinking, and has resulted in a lot of uncomfortable relations with fellow Christians who often do tow the traditional line of thinking.

So you're quite right that tradition should not determine our thinking. But I've found that orthodoxy is solidly based on the same kind of thoughts I've had about systematic theology in the Bible. And so it has worked for many years--not distinct from Scriptures, but as a synthesis of biblical thought, enabling the genuine Church to deal with heretical thinking.

The concern I have is that we not allow our thoughts to stray beyond divine revelation, as it can be seen in both the Scriptures and in the creeds. Clearly, traditional thinking has been challenged at various junctures in Christian history, and points out the need for reason over tradition. So I can at least agree with this.

randyk
Nov 6th 2017, 03:43 PM
A couple of things to bear in mind with regard to time in the New Testament.

The day was divided into twelve hours, with noon as the sixth hour. (John 11:9) The night was divided into four watches. Jesus says he might come on the second or third watch. (Luke 12:38) He walked on the water at the fourth watch (Mathew 14:25, Mark 6:48)


Jesus was talking about the master coming *in the example*--not in the matter of Christ's actual return! The idea is not about correlating the example to Christ's coming in terms of the time of the night, but rather, about the need to be ready at all times--even when there may be a tendency to not expect it. After all, the world does its best to cover up the spiritual realities in our present time.

Luke 12.37 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes.

This is talking about actual servants awaiting the return of their master to a wedding banquet. It is talking about this happening *in the example* as possible watches of the night, indicating that Christ may come *at any time* when the world covers up the spiritual realities we are to be aware of. I don't believe this is saying that Christ will come at night, or in two particular watches of the night.



The New Testament calendar day, based on Jewish cultural practices, begins at twilight on one day, and ends at twilight the following day. Suppose, for instance, that Nissan 14 fell on on a Thursday some hypothetical year. In that case Nissan 14 begins at twilight on Wednesday and ends at twilight on Thursday of that week. An example of this is found in Exodus 12 where Moses instructs Israel concerning the Passover. The first day of Passover is on the fifteenth of the first month and so the Passover lamp is killed at twilight of the fourteenth day of the month. (Exodus 12:6)

Also, when a speaker or writer counts days and nights based on the calendar day, when the actual duration of the event is not important, a partial day counts as a whole day. So for instance, if Jesus was buried at the ninth hour on Thursday and rose before the first hour on Sunday, this would be counted as three days and three nights though the actual duration of time was 2-1/2 days and three nights.

Given all the clues in the text, I believe that Jesus died and was buried at the ninth hour on Thursday and rose from the dead just before dawn on Sunday Morning: three days, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday; and three nights, Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night.

Very possible, in my thinking. I'm just not sure. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

CadyandZoe
Nov 6th 2017, 04:26 PM
I appreciate the personal note, but I hold to "original sin" not due to some "religious" commitment to tradition, but rather out of personal experience and personal conviction. Sorry. Original sin is NOT something that can be experienced.


In my philosophy personal experience plays a strong role--I got this from Watchman Nee, a Chinese gentleman, whose books were sold here in the U.S. The teachings of Watchman Nee are not Biblical as they are based on Eastern Philosophy. I would not recommend that anyone read or study his writings except to discover the origins of certain errors in Christian thought.


But I've found that orthodoxy is solidly based on the same kind of thoughts I've had about systematic theology in the Bible. And so it has worked for many years--not distinct from Scriptures, but as a synthesis of biblical thought, enabling the genuine Church to deal with heretical thinking.I know this about you. And my concern is that you have not examined your Orthodoxy in light of the scriptures. You seem to use your Orthodoxy as a lens through which to see the scriptures.

randyk
Nov 6th 2017, 08:22 PM
Sorry. Original sin is NOT something that can be experienced.


Don't get philosophical on me. When I, in my mid-teens, turned from my church and from the 10 Commandments to practice immorality, disobedience to authority, and crime, it was plainly "observable" and a part of what I and my society *experienced!*



The teachings of Watchman Nee are not Biblical as they are based on Eastern Philosophy. I would not recommend that anyone read or study his writings except to discover the origins of certain errors in Christian thought.


Have you even read any of his material? He founded about 300 evangelical-type churches in China in the early part of the 20th century. Most of his books were actually notes taken by Christians who attended his lectures. Really strong in discipleship. I'm surprised you would equate it with Eastern Philosophy. I actually think you are slandering him in this!



I know this about you. And my concern is that you have not examined your Orthodoxy in light of the scriptures. You seem to use your Orthodoxy as a lens through which to see the scriptures.

I know both extremes, quoting Scriptures verbatim or synthesizing Scriptures into our own thought and language. The truth is somewhere in between. I do not use Orthodoxy as a lens except in areas of heresy where it was intended to apply. But Scriptures also intended to accomplish the same thing.

Let me say just one more thing on this. I am against over-formalizing religion. This is the error the Jews of Jesus' day did. The Scribes, the Saducces, and the Pharisees all turned religion into a perfunctory ritual, excluding the Spirit of God from their lives. They *benefited* personally from keeping religion in order and repetitive, because it kept them in power and puffed up their egos.

I was raised in the Lutheran Church--one that was overly formal, and nearly "dead"--spiritually speaking. But I did have enough faith to appreciate my Lutheran heritage and Luther's instruction. It gave me a stronger conscience, which ultimately brought me back to my Christian practice.

So I don't place creedalism, or what you might call "orthodoxy," ahead of Christian spirituality. Quite the opposite. Much of my study over the last number of decades has been to help others avoid the pit I fell into. Instead of pursuing formal religion I am pursuing serious religious thought of a *spiritual kind,* so as to avoid the kinds of errors that lead us to a spiritual death.

Slug1
Nov 6th 2017, 08:49 PM
Sorry. Original sin is NOT something that can be experienced.

Did you have to teach your children it's wrong to lie (a sin), or did you have to teach your children how to lie?

If you had to teach your children it's a sin (wrong) to lie... then ask your kids about experiencing original sin... because you have forgotten.

CadyandZoe
Nov 6th 2017, 09:30 PM
Did you have to teach your children it's wrong to lie (a sin), or did you have to teach your children how to lie?

If you had to teach your children it's a sin (wrong) to lie... then ask your kids about experiencing original sin... because you have forgotten.

You don't seem to know about the doctrine of original sin. The doctrine of "Original Sin" states that human beings are guilty of Adam's sin, thus the name "original." This is a doctrine originated by the Roman Catholics and carried over to the Reformers in a doctrine they call "Federal Headship", which is simply another name for the same idea that human beings are guilty by association.

Neither doctrine is Biblical in my view.

If my child sins, he is guilty for his own sin. He is NOT held accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve.

CadyandZoe
Nov 6th 2017, 09:37 PM
Don't get philosophical on me. When I, in my mid-teens, turned from my church and from the 10 Commandments to practice immorality, disobedience to authority, and crime, it was plainly "observable" and a part of what I and my society *experienced!*The fact that you sinned has nothing to do with the doctrine of "Original sin." See my post to Slug1.


Have you even read any of his material? He founded about 300 evangelical-type churches in China in the early part of the 20th century. Most of his books were actually notes taken by Christians who attended his lectures. Really strong in discipleship. I'm surprised you would equate it with Eastern Philosophy. I actually think you are slandering him in this!Yes, I have read his stuff. Telling the truth about someone is not slander. His doctrines are NOT Biblical.


I was raised in the Lutheran Church--one that was overly formal, and nearly "dead"--spiritually speaking.How do you define "dead?"

ProDeo
Nov 6th 2017, 10:09 PM
Have you even read any of his material? He founded about 300 evangelical-type churches in China in the early part of the 20th century. Most of his books were actually notes taken by Christians who attended his lectures. Really strong in discipleship. I'm surprised you would equate it with Eastern Philosophy. I actually think you are slandering him in this!
I have read most of his books and (although in retrospect) agree with CadyandZoe. His discipleship is not in question. What is questionable (at times even dubious) are his teachings about living your life led by the Holy Spirit by putting the emphasis on spiritual feelings.

rstrats
Nov 6th 2017, 10:24 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "..., I believe that Jesus died and was buried at the ninth hour on Thursday..."

I don't see how it would have been possible to fit all of the burial activities involved between 3 and 4 pm.


re: "...and rose from the dead just before dawn on Sunday Morning: three days, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday; and three nights, Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night.

Thursday night would have been over for 9 hours by the time of the Messiah's death. Also, you've left out Sunday night.

Slug1
Nov 7th 2017, 03:13 AM
You don't seem to know about the doctrine of original sin. The doctrine of "Original Sin" states that human beings are guilty of Adam's sin, thus the name "original." This is a doctrine originated by the Roman Catholics and carried over to the Reformers in a doctrine they call "Federal Headship", which is simply another name for the same idea that human beings are guilty by association.

Neither doctrine is Biblical in my view.

If my child sins, he is guilty for his own sin. He is NOT held accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve.Ha.

I will say this... due to Adam's sin, MY personal spirit is dead (lost/separated from) to God when I was born into the world.

fred06
Nov 7th 2017, 04:10 AM
LORD JESUS CHRIST, was crucified at the third hour, as to Hebrews the 'day', starts from 6am, as according to our clock. And therefore 'night', and the 'next day' and 'date' begins from 6pm onward. And moreover that's when also they offer their sacrifices for all their sins in the Temple through the priest, as to when evening comes they are required of it according to the Law of Moses.

He died on the ninth hour, as to our clock 3pm. The next day, our clock after 6pm, begins the Passover. That is why, He was prepared for burial and buried before the Passover, that is before 6pm. And that is still considered as 'day', He was buried before 'night fall', which begins from 6pm onward, and when also the Passover begins. Which in concurrent also begins His, 'three days' and 'three nights', in the heart of the earth.

It is written that, He was crucified, died and was buried, but on the third 'day' (and not 'night'), He rose again. Therefore, if He died on Thursday at 3pm, that is still 'day', Friday 3pm would be the completion of the first day and night. And Friday 3pm to Saturday 3pm is the second day and night. Finally, Saturday 3pm to Sunday 3pm is the third day, where HE rose from the dead, is definitely 'ludicrous'. For this would 'refute' the women's account at dawn on the 'first day', of the week.

Truthfully, it was Wednesday 3pm He died and buried by 6pm, where onward the 'yearly' celebrated Passover begins. Therefore, He rose Saturday 3pm onward, and between His burial time, in order to fulfill the 'three days' and 'three nights' predicament. And too also the predicament of, on the third 'day' He rose again (and not 'night'), that is before the 'nightfall' from 6pm onward.

Next, their 'Sabbath', begins following Friday 6pm onward to Saturday 6pm. The women believers were not able to go to the tomb before 6pm, for they would become unclean and have worked on the Sabbath. And moreover after 6pm, for that would be 'nightfall', and perhaps not wise to visit tombs at that time. Moreover besides that, just after the Sabbath where they are forbid to work, the women had to prepare all the things they have planned to take to His burial site at dawn of the 'first day', which begins from Saturday 6pm to Sunday 6pm.

To say that He rose on Sunday is also 'ludicrous'. This is because at 'dawn' itself, they discovered that the stone of the tomb was already rolled 'open'. Therefore, He died 3pm and buried onward on Wednesday, and He resurrected Saturday 3pm onward.

And next one may ask, what would have He been doing from henceforth His resurrection from Saturday 3pm onward, until He revealed Himself to Mary Magdalene???

randyk
Nov 7th 2017, 07:24 AM
You don't seem to know about the doctrine of original sin. The doctrine of "Original Sin" states that human beings are guilty of Adam's sin, thus the name "original." This is a doctrine originated by the Roman Catholics and carried over to the Reformers in a doctrine they call "Federal Headship", which is simply another name for the same idea that human beings are guilty by association.

Neither doctrine is Biblical in my view.

If my child sins, he is guilty for his own sin. He is NOT held accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve.

I think you're putting a slant on it that most Christians wouldn't agree with. I don't see the human race as guilty of Adam's sin. I see the human race as having a spiritual infection that originated with Adam's sin. It is a predisposition to move outside of the word of God, otherwise known as sin.

Adam is guilty of his own sin, and we are each guilty of our own individual sins. I don't believe the doctrine of Original Sin requires that one believe as you think Catholics believe. The doctrine of Original Sin, as I understand it, is simply the biblical claim that all are guilty of sin, that all have sinned. Therefore, all of humanity needs redemption. That's Original Sin.

If you want to turn it into collective guilt for what Adam and Eve alone chose to do I can see why you get all confused about Orginal Sin. That is only one person's view of it, or one group's view of it. But Original Sin as a doctrine held by most people I know simply accept the idea that we are all guilty of our own sin, and need redemption through Christ. Period.

I just did a quick follow up, and I can see how you draw your conclusions. The idea of collective guilt is merely assigning to us the consequence of Adam's sin, and not due to our own sin. It is a statement that we share in Adam's punishment as innocent victims, and yet are responsible to deal with the sin nature we've inherited.

I would just like to know: Are you denying that we all have a sin nature, that we have all sinned? Or, are you simply denying that we are guilty of Adam's sin? If the latter, I partly agree with you.

We are not guilty of the very sins that Adam and Eve chose to engage in. But we guilty of the same kinds of sin as Adam's sin if we ourselves choose to engage in them. And in a sense we all do. But we did not, as individuals, originate the sin nature that is part of our spiritual endowment. We are not guilty of that. We are guilty only of our own sins, as you suggest.

ProDeo
Nov 7th 2017, 08:07 AM
I think you're putting a slant on it that most Christians wouldn't agree with. I don't see the human race as guilty of Adam's sin. I see the human race as having a spiritual infection that originated with Adam's sin. It is a predisposition to move outside of the word of God, otherwise known as sin.

Adam is guilty of his own sin, and we are each guilty of our own individual sins. I don't believe the doctrine of Original Sin requires that one believe as you think Catholics believe. The doctrine of Original Sin, as I understand it, is simply the biblical claim that all are guilty of sin, that all have sinned. Therefore, all of humanity needs redemption. That's Original Sin.

If you want to turn it into collective guilt for what Adam and Eve alone chose to do I can see why you get all confused about Orginal Sin. That is only one person's view of it, or one group's view of it. But Original Sin as a doctrine held by most people I know simply accept the idea that we are all guilty of our own sin, and need redemption through Christ. Period.

I just did a quick follow up, and I can see how you draw your conclusions. The idea of collective guilt is merely assigning to us the consequence of Adam's sin, and not due to our own sin. It is a statement that we share in Adam's punishment as innocent victims, and yet are responsible to deal with the sin nature we've inherited.

I would just like to know: Are you denying that we all have a sin nature, that we have all sinned? Or, are you simply denying that we are guilty of Adam's sin? If the latter, I partly agree with you.

We are not guilty of the very sins that Adam and Eve chose to engage in. But we guilty of the same kinds of sin as Adam's sin if we ourselves choose to engage in them. And in a sense we all do. But we did not, as individuals, originate the sin nature that is part of our spiritual endowment. We are not guilty of that. We are guilty only of our own sins, as you suggest.
Whether original sin is true or not, and I am undecided, two things spring to mind, 1) A&E had a choice, we don't, sooner or later we start to sin, no way to escape and according to Augustine (the father of the doctrine) even a one day old baby has sinned, and 2) unlike A&E we aren't offered the same chance they had.

CadyandZoe
Nov 7th 2017, 11:56 AM
I think you're putting a slant on it that most Christians wouldn't agree with.The doctrine of original sin is not my doctrine. I am not putting a slant on it. I simply told you what the doctrine is. And I haven't told you anything that you can't find on your own.


I don't see the human race as guilty of Adam's sin.Okay. Then you don't believe in Original Sin.


The doctrine of Original Sin, as I understand it, is simply the biblical claim that all are guilty of sin, that all have sinned.Then you are mistaken.


If you want to turn it into collective guilt for what Adam and Eve alone chose to do I can see why you get all confused about Orginal Sin.I'm not the one that is confused. You are. You said you believed in Original Sin and yet you don't know the doctrine. And I'm a bit disheartened by your accusation that I am uneducated and without knowledge concerning Christian doctrine, seeing that you have demonstrated a lack of knowledge concerning this very subject.


But Original Sin as a doctrine held by most people I know simply accept the idea that we are all guilty of our own sin, and need redemption through Christ. Period.Then most people you know are mistaken.


I would just like to know: Are you denying that we all have a sin nature, that we have all sinned? Or, are you simply denying that we are guilty of Adam's sin? If the latter, I partly agree with you.I haven't denied anything. You told me that you believed the doctrine of Original Sin and that had I been educated, I would have believed as you did. Apparently, you weren't as informed as you thought.


We are not guilty of the very sins that Adam and Eve chose to engage in.Right. Glad I could help.

CadyandZoe
Nov 7th 2017, 12:01 PM
I have read most of his books and (although in retrospect) agree with CadyandZoe. His discipleship is not in question. What is questionable (at times even dubious) are his teachings about living your life led by the Holy Spirit by putting the emphasis on spiritual feelings.

Yes, thank you for that clarification. I would never question his discipleship or his salvation.


Ha.

I will say this... due to Adam's sin, MY personal spirit is dead (lost/separated from) to God when I was born into the world.

Can you prove this with scripture?

CadyandZoe
Nov 7th 2017, 12:07 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "..., I believe that Jesus died and was buried at the ninth hour on Thursday..."

I don't see how it would have been possible to fit all of the burial activities involved between 3 and 4 pm. The Sabbath didn't begin until about 7 pm and all that could be done is to wrap the body and lay it in the tomb. The women were planing to do the rest of the burial activities the day after the Sabbath.



re: "...and rose from the dead just before dawn on Sunday Morning: three days, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday; and three nights, Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night.

Thursday night would have been over for 9 hours by the time of the Messiah's death. Also, you've left out Sunday night.
I'm not sure what you mean.

rstrats
Nov 7th 2017, 12:51 PM
Fred06,
re: "To say that He rose on Sunday is also 'ludicrous'. This is because at 'dawn' itself, they discovered that the stone of the tomb was already rolled 'open'. Therefore, He died 3pm and buried onward on Wednesday, and He resurrected Saturday 3pm onward."


How do you square that with Luke 24:21?

rstrats
Nov 7th 2017, 01:27 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: The Sabbath didn't begin until about 7 pm and all that could be done is to wrap the body and lay it in the tomb. The women were planing to do the rest of the burial activities the day after the Sabbath.

But you said the Messiah "was buried at the ninth hour".





re: "I'm not sure what you mean."

You said that the Messiah died at the ninth hour on Thursday. You then included Thursday night as one of the nights. But how could that be since Thursday night had ended hours before His death during the daytime? You also left out Sunday night which would have to be included if He resurrected on Sunday.

Slug1
Nov 7th 2017, 01:34 PM
Can you prove this with scripture?Without looking, verses in 1 Cor 15, also Romans 5 and 6. Don't remember which verses.

Aren't children taught that their spirit is dead in Adam and by accepting Christ as Lord, their spirit is born-again from death to life (made-alive) in Christ? That their spirit is dead and apart from God (lost) until one chooses to believe and the reason for a dead to God spirit, is due to Adam's sin??

Churches don't teach this basic(s) of discipleship anymore?

Or you don't teach that anymore or you forgot these basics of discipleship?

CadyandZoe
Nov 7th 2017, 05:19 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: The Sabbath didn't begin until about 7 pm and all that could be done is to wrap the body and lay it in the tomb. The women were planing to do the rest of the burial activities the day after the Sabbath.

But you said the Messiah "was buried at the ninth hour".





re: "I'm not sure what you mean."

You said that the Messiah died at the ninth hour on Thursday. You then included Thursday night as one of the nights. But how could that be since Thursday night had ended hours before His death during the daytime? You also left out Sunday night which would have to be included if He resurrected on Sunday.

It's hard for me to explain this without making a drawing or a chart.

In an earlier post I attempted to describe how people kept time in the first century. The daylight was divided into 12 parts called "hours". An example of this is found in

John 11:9
Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.

From this we know that the daylight was divided into 12 hours and by comparison to modern time we have the following

Day
First hour ----- 6 am to 7 am
Second hour -- 7 am to 8 am
Third hour ---- 8 am to 9 am
Fourth hour --- 9 am to 10 am
Fifth hour ----- 10 am to 11 am
Sixth hour ---- 11 am to 12 pm
Seventh hour - 12 pm to 1 pm
Eighth hour --- 1 pm to 2 pm
Ninth hour --- 2 pm to 3 pm
Tenth hour --- 3 pm to 4 pm
Eleventh hour -- 4 pm to 5 pm
Twelfth hour ---- 5 pm to 6 pm

Jesus died on the ninth hour, which is sometime between 2 pm and 3 pm.

Matthew 27:46-50
Mark 15:34-37
Luke 23:46
John 19:30

Joseph buries Jesus while women watched that evening, which began the Jewish Preparation day -- the Day before the Sabbath.

Matthew 27:57-61
Mark 15:42-46
Luke 23:50-54
John 19:38-42

Note: The Jewish preparation day actually begins on Thursday evening at twilight, which is sometime after 6 pm. All Jewish days begin and end at twilight.

Chief Priests and Pharisees secure the tomb on Friday, which continues the day of preparation

Friday evening at twilight the Sabbath begins.
Saturday day the Sabbath day continues.

Saturday evening at twilight the Sabbath is finished.

Sunday morning the women visit the tomb.

Matthew 28:1
Mark 16:1
Luke 24:1
John 20:1


Matthew 27:62-66

Tony P
Nov 7th 2017, 06:19 PM
It's hard for me to explain this without making a drawing or a chart.

In an earlier post I attempted to describe how people kept time in the first century. The daylight was divided into 12 parts called "hours". An example of this is found in

John 11:9
Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.

From this we know that the daylight was divided into 12 hours and by comparison to modern time we have the following

Day
First hour ----- 6 am to 7 am
Second hour -- 7 am to 8 am
Third hour ---- 8 am to 9 am
Fourth hour --- 9 am to 10 am
Fifth hour ----- 10 am to 11 am
Sixth hour ---- 11 am to 12 pm
Seventh hour - 12 pm to 1 pm
Eighth hour --- 1 pm to 2 pm
Ninth hour --- 2 pm to 3 pm
Tenth hour --- 3 pm to 4 pm
Eleventh hour -- 4 pm to 5 pm
Twelfth hour ---- 5 pm to 6 pm

Jesus died on the ninth hour, which is sometime between 2 pm and 3 pm.

Matthew 27:46-50
Mark 15:34-37
Luke 23:46
John 19:30

Joseph buries Jesus while women watched that evening, which began the Jewish Preparation day -- the Day before the Sabbath.

Matthew 27:57-61
Mark 15:42-46
Luke 23:50-54
John 19:38-42

Note: The Jewish preparation day actually begins on Thursday evening at twilight, which is sometime after 6 pm. All Jewish days begin and end at twilight.

Chief Priests and Pharisees secure the tomb on Friday, which continues the day of preparation

Friday evening at twilight the Sabbath begins.
Saturday day the Sabbath day continues.

Saturday evening at twilight the Sabbath is finished.

Sunday morning the women visit the tomb.

Matthew 28:1
Mark 16:1
Luke 24:1
John 20:1


Matthew 27:62-66

Don't forget, John specifically tells us Jesus was laid in the tomb just before the HIGH Sabbath. Nisan 15, the first day of Unleavened Bread, is always Holy Convocation/High Sabbath day, no matter what day of the week in which it falls. So, I agree with you that Jesus was crucified on Thursday before the High Sabbath of Thurs night/Fri. If you think about it, the whole nation of Israel was at rest from Thurs evening until Sunday morning. The same time Jesus' body was in the tomb.

rstrats
Nov 7th 2017, 07:40 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "Ninth hour - - - 2 pm to 3 pm"

In your post #182, you wrote " I believe that Jesus died and was buried at the ninth hour on Thursday..."

How could He have been buried at the ninth hour? How could all the things that took place between the Messiah's death and His burial be accomplished between 2 and 3 pm?

CadyandZoe
Nov 7th 2017, 09:37 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "Ninth hour - - - 2 pm to 3 pm"

In your post #182, you wrote " I believe that Jesus died and was buried at the ninth hour on Thursday..."

How could He have been buried at the ninth hour? How could all the things that took place between the Messiah's death and His burial be accomplished between 2 and 3 pm?

I must have misspoke. Jesus died at the ninth hour but he wasn't buried until that evening.

CadyandZoe
Nov 7th 2017, 09:40 PM
Without looking, verses in 1 Cor 15, also Romans 5 and 6. Don't remember which verses.

Aren't children taught that their spirit is dead in Adam and by accepting Christ as Lord, their spirit is born-again from death to life (made-alive) in Christ? That their spirit is dead and apart from God (lost) until one chooses to believe and the reason for a dead to God spirit, is due to Adam's sin??

Churches don't teach this basic(s) of discipleship anymore?

Or you don't teach that anymore or you forgot these basics of discipleship?I don't know what you are talking about. Sorry. As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a dead spirit.

rstrats
Nov 7th 2017, 11:01 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "Jesus died at the ninth hour but he wasn't buried until that evening."

So you're saying that He was buried on the 15th, i.e. the high sabbath.

Slug1
Nov 8th 2017, 12:18 AM
I don't know what you are talking about. Sorry. As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a dead spirit.Based on what I read here... you haven't looked at the scriptures I posted at your request?

v 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

I'll just post these for now to see if you'd like to discuss their meaning in relation to how we are dead in Adam's sin, and made-alive in Christ. This is Christianity at the 101 discipleship level of education. You know... about being "born-again?" If our spirit is always alive... why is the verse showing us the opposite of what you just said about how you've never heard of a "dead" in Adam?

randyk
Nov 8th 2017, 03:32 AM
The doctrine of original sin is not my doctrine. I am not putting a slant on it. I simply told you what the doctrine is. And I haven't told you anything that you can't find on your own.

Okay. Then you don't believe in Original Sin.

Then you are mistaken.

I'm not the one that is confused. You are. You said you believed in Original Sin and yet you don't know the doctrine. And I'm a bit disheartened by your accusation that I am uneducated and without knowledge concerning Christian doctrine, seeing that you have demonstrated a lack of knowledge concerning this very subject.

Then most people you know are mistaken.

I haven't denied anything. You told me that you believed the doctrine of Original Sin and that had I been educated, I would have believed as you did. Apparently, you weren't as informed as you thought.

Right. Glad I could help.

Yes, I'm not sure most Christians today and in history have interpreted the "collective guilt of Adam" the same way you do. That is, I'm not sure they actually believe all men are guilty because of what Adam and Eve did in the garden? So which would all of mankind be guilty of, with your version of the doctrine of Original Sin? Are they guilty of Adam's sins in following Eve? Or, are they guilty of Eve's sin in believing a deceiver like the Devil?

You see, I think you are way too technical in your belief in the "collective guilt of mankind, together with Adam." What that means to many, I think, and certainly to me, is that we all share a sin nature, and thus are weak to the same sin tendencies that Adam and Eve came to have. We acquired a spiritual nature that was sinful, capable of both good and evil. And we have inherited the same sin nature, though not guilt for the same exact things Adam and Eve did. We simply fall into the same sins that Adam and Eve did because we have inherited the exact same sin nature.

Anyway, believe as you want. I only thought you were ignorant because I thought you were denying the sin nature of mankind. Sorry I misunderstood you. And certainly I can always learn more about these things. In this case I'm not sure you're right that most people understand this the way you do. I'm not sure that even if they believe in the collective guilt of mankind together with Adam that they *mean* we are guilty of the exact same sin that Adam and Eve committed. That appears absurd to me.

randyk
Nov 8th 2017, 03:44 AM
The fact that you sinned has nothing to do with the doctrine of "Original sin." See my post to Slug1.


Of course it does. The doctrine of Original Sin means that we have inherited from Adam and Eve their sin nature. It doesn't mean we're guilty of their particular sins, but that we have inherited their nature, and thus, produce the same kinds of sins ourselves.



Yes, I have read his stuff. Telling the truth about someone is not slander. His doctrines are NOT Biblical.


What have you read of Watchman Nee? I will prove to you how biblical it is. It is *very* biblical! And he was a conventional Christian, holding to all the fundamental Christian doctrines, as far as I know. Not saying I agree with everything he taught. But his view of discipleship was very inspired, in my opinion. It had a great impact on me.



How do you define "dead?"

People who do not have Christian fruit in their lives are angry people or syrupy nice--they try to show people how good they are, or try to impress people with their knowledge of God's word. But without Christ's fruit in their lives--without his spiritual life operating in us to produce good character--we are virtually dead. We can only remedy this by turning to Christ in a spiritual way, die to our carnal nature, and learn to become servants of God and of others.

CadyandZoe
Nov 8th 2017, 11:48 AM
Of course it does. The doctrine of Original Sin means that we have inherited from Adam and Eve their sin nature.No it does not. And after three days of talking about this I'm surprised you haven't looked it up yourself.


It doesn't mean we're guilty of their particular sins, but that we have inherited their nature, and thus, produce the same kinds of sins ourselves.The doctrine of Original Sin teaches that all human beings are guilty of the first sin. Thus the name of the doctrine -- Original sin.


I will prove to you how biblical it is.Okay, that would be a first since you seem reluctant to prove anything from the scriptures.


But without Christ's fruit in their lives--without his spiritual life operating in us to produce good character--we are virtually dead.Virtually dead? But you weren't talking about a particular individual. You were critical of your former church, painting the entire church with a broad brush.

I get it. I've heard it many times before. The Lutheran church taught you the gospel, which placed emphasis on the fact that we are sinners, but it had no advice on how to avoid sin or solve your sin problem. So you went looking for a solution and seemed to find it in Watchman Nee who allegedly gave you the techniques of discipleship, which allegedly fosters a spiritual life.

Around here we call this "Star Wars" theology, which is essentially a philosophy based on Taoism and the study of the Wu Wei, which Watchman Nee brought with him, not finding in the Bible. If you are using the discipleship techniques of Watchman Nee you are practicing a syncretism of Christianity and Taoism. You may want to go back and sort that out because I think you will find that the Bible does not teach Taoism.

CadyandZoe
Nov 8th 2017, 11:58 AM
CadyandZoe,
re: "Jesus died at the ninth hour but he wasn't buried until that evening."

So you're saying that He was buried on the 15th, i.e. the high sabbath.He was buried on the day of preparation.

CadyandZoe
Nov 8th 2017, 12:05 PM
Based on what I read here... you haven't looked at the scriptures I posted at your request?Not only have I looked at them, I have studied them in detail.


If our spirit is always alive... why is the verse showing us the opposite of what you just said about how you've never heard of a "dead" in Adam?In these verses "dead" means "condemned", i.e. sentenced to the punishment of death. This is not saying that our spirit is dead.

Slug1
Nov 8th 2017, 12:52 PM
Not only have I looked at them, I have studied them in detail.

In these verses "dead" means "condemned", i.e. sentenced to the punishment of death. This is not saying that our spirit is dead.:hmm: So what is the meaning of being "born-again" if our spirit is not dead, due to Adam's sin?

Also... if you are saying that our spirit is not dead in Adam, then our spirit is alive?

When any person has not chosen to believe in Christ, since you are saying that their spirit is not dead, what is their spirit alive IN then?

Anyway... at the Christianity level 101 for children, what is taught to children concerning "what" died when Adam sinned? He didn't die physically... so "what" died in him that was once alive? We can't say that the "relationship" died because by the fact of God searching for Adam, clothing him, etc... shows that grace is fully in effect so God is still able to have a relationship with Adam and all of His creation (mankind). So, relationship didn't die.

Once you can answer that for a child, then understanding "what" is brought back to life in Christ... makes more sense :)

rstrats
Nov 8th 2017, 01:00 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "He was buried on the day of preparation."


The day of preparation was the 14th, the day of the crucifixion. But you said the Messiah was buried that evening. What part of the 14th are you referring to as"evening"?

CadyandZoe
Nov 8th 2017, 04:26 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "He was buried on the day of preparation."


The day of preparation was the 14th, the day of the crucifixion. But you said the Messiah was buried that evening. What part of the 14th are you referring to as"evening"?

I didn't mention any dates.

CadyandZoe
Nov 8th 2017, 04:33 PM
So what is the meaning of being "born-again" if our spirit is not dead, due to Adam's sin?Being "born again" is being "born from above", which takes place when the Holy Spirit works within the heart of someone to "enlighten their eyes" as Paul puts it. This is also known as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.


Also... if you are saying that our spirit is not dead in Adam, then our spirit is alive?Of course. Who told you are spirit was dead?


When any person has not chosen to believe in Christ, since you are saying that their spirit is not dead, what is their spirit alive IN then?What do you mean? I don't understand the question.


Anyway... at the Christianity level 101 for children, what is taught to children concerning "what" died when Adam sinned?I'm more interested in what the Bible teaches. Aren't you?


He didn't die physically... so "what" died in him that was once alive?Nothing died in him.


Once you can answer that for a child, then understanding "what" is brought back to life in Christ... makes more sense :)I already answered the question so that a child can understand it.

Slug1
Nov 8th 2017, 06:06 PM
I'm more interested in what the Bible teaches. Aren't you? I sure do, so...


Nothing died in him.Then what died when he ate?

CadyandZoe
Nov 8th 2017, 08:28 PM
I sure do, so...

Then what died when he ate?He didn't die when he ate. He came under the penalty of death when he ate.

Slug1
Nov 8th 2017, 09:00 PM
He didn't die when he ate. He came under the penalty of death when he ate.If that is the way you want to put it... cool. I can still work with your answer.

What part of a person has to come back to life, for a person to not be under the penalty of death?

fred06
Nov 9th 2017, 04:36 AM
Fred06,
re: "To say that He rose on Sunday is also 'ludicrous'. This is because at 'dawn' itself, they discovered that the stone of the tomb was already rolled 'open'. Therefore, He died 3pm and buried onward on Wednesday, and He resurrected Saturday 3pm onward."


How do you square that with Luke 24:21?

Very well done dear 'rstrats', i was indeed ignorant to that and henceforth 'blown away', which is to the point. Thank you, and GOD in CHRIST JESUS our LORD bless you, for all can learn from this for now until further notification, whether necessary, will come from above.

First of all, GOD requires of faith, and not believes founded conformed out of perfect history with proof and accurate documentation, just for everyone without a genuine change of heart to 'come in' as they want into HIS Kingdom. But ones, by grace and through faith who have come in, believers from CHRIST Himself, and believers after Him and further after the Apostles. And who have come to believe through the, not only 'teachings', but also through the 'testimonial' accounts of events good or bad happened that day. Therefore individual 'testimonial accounts passed on down the line do differ slightly.

Therefore, we in faith conformed and are spiritual, take into accounts, testimonies given by the ones who were with JESUS as chosen disciples, from the beginning to His 'ascension', after they were specifically 'commissioned' as Apostles to build His church, significantly remained the 'twelve', and the last, 'thirteenth'. JESUS said, "it only takes two or three witnesses to justify a case."

Our Gospel till today and in Scripture in 'Testament', coming from the 'testimonies' of man, in regard to GOD's only begotten SON and HIS Kingdom, and in sound doctrine, is proven to be 'folly' and 'weak', to the common 'eyes' and 'mind' of men. As we are able to 'perceive' according to what i am testifying myself from the truth according to Apostle Paul's account in regards to the Gospel, was made by GOD to be 'folly' and 'weak', in 1 Corinthians 1:18-31.

Now, in regards to our discussion, and according to the wisdom given me, i would take the accounts of Matthew and John as witnesses as close to what happened that day and they were there. Than, of Mark and Luke who were believers after them, with them, and among others with them, testifying later in testament. But nevertheless their accounts to other things that are not contradicting and different in testament are equally acceptable in faith as well. For example, whether JESUS rode on a donkey, or donkey's or both, differ in testament between them.

In our ongoing replies here by our 'brethren', JESUS said, "Are there not 12 hours in a day?" If JESUS died on the 'ninth hour', meaning our time, 3pm, then how He rose Sunday morning, but supposedly Sunday 3pm? For the fulfillment was 3 days of 36 hours, and 3 nights of 36 hours, and He died on the ninth hour, and for now doesn't matter what day it is. Generally speaking, Israel's calendar, day and date begins after 6 pm onward, where the sunsets as well, and day as daylight of 12 hours, begins after 6 am onward, as 0 hour perhaps?

Another thing also must taken under consideration that, Israel's calendar, time, dawn and sunset differ from ours, if we want to use in comparison to make a predicament, the time and day of His death and resurrection. This is all i am able to share according to the wisdom given me, and based on available and reliable testimonies in account to the incident.

Thank you and may the Good GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless HIS church according to HIS grace and truth through HIS SON.

fred06
Nov 9th 2017, 09:12 AM
Don't forget, John specifically tells us Jesus was laid in the tomb just before the HIGH Sabbath. Nisan 15, the first day of Unleavened Bread, is always Holy Convocation/High Sabbath day, no matter what day of the week in which it falls. So, I agree with you that Jesus was crucified on Thursday before the High Sabbath of Thurs night/Fri. If you think about it, the whole nation of Israel was at rest from Thurs evening until Sunday morning. The same time Jesus' body was in the tomb.

If JESUS died at the nine hour, then how can He rose up Sunday morning? It doesn't add up to 3 days that is 36 hours, and 3 nights, that is also 36 hours. Just for the benefit of the doubt, for example, Thursday 3pm - 3pm Friday = one day and night. Then Friday 3pm - Saturday 3pm = two days and nights. Finally, Saturday 3pm - Sunday 3pm = three days and three nights. JESUS said that there are 12 hours in a day, and therefore there are also 12 hours in a night.

Do not the Jewish people observe the weekly Sabbath on Saturday. And Sunday is already the 'first day of the week'. That is when at 'dawn', the women went to the tomb discovering it to be 'empty'. The thing we must find out is, at what time Israel 'dawns' and mightfalls? This is because the 'first day of the week', begin on Saturday after 6pm onward. And JESUS already resurrected before that, at the time of His burial, after the ninth hour. The Roman soldier had to discover JESUS have died just after the ninth hour. And he had to pierce JESUS at the side in order to make sure. Then Joseph of Arimathea had to ask Pilate for JESUS' body. And they brought down the body from the Cross, and the preparation for burial was made, before the Passover. How long would it have taken for them to do all 'these' things, just after the nine hour?

CadyandZoe
Nov 9th 2017, 11:40 AM
If that is the way you want to put it... cool. I can still work with your answer.

What part of a person has to come back to life, for a person to not be under the penalty of death?I told you. Nothing about us dies. So nothing about us comes back to life.

Slug1
Nov 9th 2017, 01:53 PM
I told you. Nothing about us dies. So nothing about us comes back to life.So, can I conclude that you understand being born-again the same as Nicodemus in John 3?

rstrats
Nov 9th 2017, 03:48 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "I didn't mention any dates."


You kinda did when you said the burial took place on the day of preparation, because that particular preparation was for the Passover and always takes place on the 14th.

CadyandZoe
Nov 9th 2017, 04:12 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "I didn't mention any dates."


You kinda did when you said the burial took place on the day of preparation, because that particular preparation was for the Passover and always takes place on the 14th.I didn't assign dates because the Gospel accounts don't.

CadyandZoe
Nov 9th 2017, 04:14 PM
So, can I conclude that you understand being born-again the same as Nicodemus in John 3?I understand being born again the way Jesus understood it. Where in the Bible did you get the idea that our spirits were dead?

CadyandZoe
Nov 9th 2017, 04:15 PM
If JESUS died at the nine hour, then how can He rose up Sunday morning? It doesn't add up to 3 days that is 36 hours, and 3 nights, that is also 36 hours. Just for the benefit of the doubt, for example, Thursday 3pm - 3pm Friday = one day and night. Then Friday 3pm - Saturday 3pm = two days and nights. Finally, Saturday 3pm - Sunday 3pm = three days and three nights. JESUS said that there are 12 hours in a day, and therefore there are also 12 hours in a night.

Do not the Jewish people observe the weekly Sabbath on Saturday. And Sunday is already the 'first day of the week'. That is when at 'dawn', the women went to the tomb discovering it to be 'empty'. The thing we must find out is, at what time Israel 'dawns' and mightfalls? This is because the 'first day of the week', begin on Saturday after 6pm onward. And JESUS already resurrected before that, at the time of His burial, after the ninth hour. The Roman soldier had to discover JESUS have died just after the ninth hour. And he had to pierce JESUS at the side in order to make sure. Then Joseph of Arimathea had to ask Pilate for JESUS' body. And they brought down the body from the Cross, and the preparation for burial was made, before the Passover. How long would it have taken for them to do all 'these' things, just after the nine hour?I maintain that the phrase "3 days" is not intended to indicate 36 hours.

Slug1
Nov 9th 2017, 04:31 PM
I understand being born again the way Jesus understood it. Where in the Bible did you get the idea that our spirits were dead?Ephesians 2: 1-3 is a start... separated from God we are alive but dead in our spirit, thus separated from God until the spirit is made alive in Christ again (the 1 Cor 15 verses).

Again, something "died" in Adam when he ate. And what died, cause separation from God.

To be "spiritually dead" (separated from God) something has to be dead within a human (flesh, soul, spirit). What is dead has to be made spiritually alive to not be separated from God.

CadyandZoe
Nov 10th 2017, 12:38 AM
Ephesians 2: 1-3 is a start... separated from God we are alive but dead in our spirit, thus separated from God until the spirit is made alive in Christ again (the 1 Cor 15 verses).

Again, something "died" in Adam when he ate. And what died, cause separation from God.

To be "spiritually dead" (separated from God) something has to be dead within a human (flesh, soul, spirit). What is dead has to be made spiritually alive to not be separated from God.

Again, Ephesians 2 is talking about a death sentence, not actual death. To be "dead" in your sins is have the sentence of death put on you. To be made "alive" is to receive the promise of eternal life.

Adam wasn't separated from God; he was separated from the Garden and the Tree of Life.

ewq1938
Nov 10th 2017, 02:36 AM
Again, Ephesians 2 is talking about a death sentence, not actual death. To be "dead" in your sins is have the sentence of death put on you. To be made "alive" is to receive the promise of eternal life.

Adam wasn't separated from God; he was separated from the Garden and the Tree of Life.

Good stuff here !

fred06
Nov 10th 2017, 02:43 AM
I maintain that the phrase "3 days" is not intended to indicate 36 hours.

You ignore the truth that JESUS Himself said, "Is there not 12 hours in a day."

And therefore there are also 12 hours in a night. He did not say 24 hours in a day. JESUS Himself said that, "And the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights."

And Scripturally elsewhere, 'He fasted for forty days and forty nights without eating and drinking.'

You may maintain your 'phrase' as how intended to you, but no thank you. For we will maintain our faith in the sound doctrine of 'All Scripture = HOLY BIBLE', as how it is written and testified.

Truthfully and in faith, the burial and resurrection of LORD JESUS CHRIST, must fulfill according prediction, that 'three days - 36 hours' and 'three nights - 36 hours', and 72 hours exactly His body will be in the heart of the earth.

'Twisting' the teachings and the Scriptures in the HOLY BIBLE, is only to one's own destruction. Please that all of you should not become 'teachers', for teachers will be strictly judged. And too, be not wise in one's own conceit to know everything, yet seem to know nothing.

CadyandZoe
Nov 10th 2017, 12:43 PM
You ignore the truth that JESUS Himself said, "Is there not 12 hours in a day."

I'm not denying that there are 12 hours in a day. What I'm saying is that in normal conversation when we count the number of days, we typically round off. Think about it.

Suppose I said that I took a short vacation. I was at home on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. How many days was I at home? Four days. Suppose I told you that I actually worked until noon on Thursday? Now how many days was I at home? Three or four? I would say four, because if I were to say three days I would not be entirely truthful. I WAS home on Thursday, even if it was only for part of a day.

Jesus didn't say he would be in the tomb for 36 daylight hours. He said that he would be in the tomb for three days, and as it turned out he was in the tomb Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. As we count the days, he was in the tomb for three days. Even if he was buried late on Thursday, it would be untruthful to say that he wasn't in the tomb on Thursday. Was he in the tomb on Thursday? Yes. So Thursday counts as one of the days he was in the tomb. Jesus isn't giving his disciples the duration of his burial; he isn't telling them how many hours he will spend in the tomb. He is telling his disciples how many days of the week he will be in the tomb.

He was put into the tomb on Thursday. So then, if his disciples were to count three days -- Thursday, Friday, and Saturday -- they should expect to see Jesus alive on Sunday. That's how we talk to each other. Jesus is talking to fishermen using everyday, normal language; he is not talking to scientists using mathematical precision. Jesus did not expect his disciples to translate the "days and nights" into "hours" in order to calculate the precise time he would stand up and walk out of the tomb. That isn't his intent because that isn't how people normally think about the world.


Truthfully and in faith, the burial and resurrection of LORD JESUS CHRIST, must fulfill according prediction, that 'three days - 36 hours' and 'three nights - 36 hours', and 72 hours exactly His body will be in the heart of the earth.Truthfully, there is no reason to think that such a calculation is necessary. Everyday people don't speak in code to each other. When we say "days" we mean "days" not "hours". And we typically round off the days or the weeks or the months or the years, when precision would be both unnecessary and overly complicated. Truth demands accuracy but not precision.

Suppose I was at work on Thursday and went home about 3 o'clock, after feeling sick to my stomach. Suppose I came back to work on Monday, feeling better. Later that month the HR department asks me how many days I missed? I would say that I missed one whole day and two hours from another day. Take note of the fact that I was sicker much longer than 10 hours, but HR isn't concerned about how long I was sick. They only want to know how many hours of work I missed. The veracity of my answer depends on the information being sought. By telling HR that I missed 10 hours of work, I was not being untruthful about how long I was actually sick.

Suppose HR asked me when I was ready to resume work. I would say I was ready to work on Monday. Even if I was ready to work on Sunday, feeling much better that morning, it wasn't a lie for me to tell HR I was ready to work on Monday since that is the first day of the work week for my company. HR needs information concerning my work week and so my answers are accurate for that purpose, even though they lack precision with regard to how I experienced my sickness. As far as HR is concerned, I was sick for 10 hours, and available for work on Monday, even though I was actually sick much longer than that and was actually feeling better on Sunday rather than Monday.

But what if a friend asked me how many days I was sick? I would say that I was sick for three days, having felt better on Sunday. I was sick Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. But when I woke up on Sunday, I was feeling much better. I was sick for three days. My friend is not the HR department. He isn't going to accuse me of being imprecise when I give my answer in days rounded off rather than the exact hours. I was telling my friend the truth, given that he expects to me to round off the number of hours and express my answer in whole days.

Suppose HR wanted to know how many days vacation I took. If I was gone a week, I would tell them that I took five days vacation, because I was gone from work for five days. If I am talking to a friend, I would say that I took nine days vacation because I was gone from home for that length of time: two weekends and five work days equals nine days. If I tell you that I was on vacation for a week, I hope you won't hold it against me if I was actually gone nine days rather than five or seven days. What I really mean to say is that I wasn't at work that particular week of the month. The veracity of my answer depends on the information being requested.


'Twisting' the teachings and the Scriptures in the HOLY BIBLE, is only to one's own destruction.It isn't twisting the scriptures when we come to understand how people actually communicate with each other and learn to appreciate the wonderful complexities of human expression. Everyday people speak everyday language to each other. And in the New Testament we have a carpenter speaking to a group of fishermen, speaking to each other as friends. And we all know how friends talk to each other.

rstrats
Nov 10th 2017, 01:49 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "Jesus...said that he would be in the tomb for three days, and as it turned out he was in the tomb Thursday, Friday, and Saturday."


He also said that three nights would be involved. How do you account for the lack of a third night?

Trivalee
Nov 10th 2017, 01:58 PM
Based on what I read here... you haven't looked at the scriptures I posted at your request?

v 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

I'll just post these for now to see if you'd like to discuss their meaning in relation to how we are dead in Adam's sin, and made-alive in Christ. This is Christianity at the 101 discipleship level of education. You know... about being "born-again?" If our spirit is always alive... why is the verse showing us the opposite of what you just said about how you've never heard of a "dead" in Adam?

I agree.

Due to Adam's sin, ALL are dead [separated from God] in sin (starting with the original sin of Adam and our own sins), but made alive or quickened when we turn to Christ.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are savedhttp://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/wink.gif

It is common to misinterpret this "quickening" as the resurrection from the grave, but that's not what the text means as the subtext in the bracket (by grace ye are saved) clarifies.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2017, 02:00 PM
I agree.

Due to Adam's sin, ALL are dead in sin (starting with the original sin of Adam and our own sins), but made alive or quickened when we turn to Christ.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

It is common to misinterpret this "quickening" as the resurrection from the grave, but that's not what the text means as the subtext in the bracket (by grace ye are saved) clarifies.Hooah... lets see how CandZ replies to ya.

Trivalee
Nov 10th 2017, 02:21 PM
I told you. Nothing about us dies. So nothing about us comes back to life.

Isn't it about semantics? We know that spirit don't die literally, ergo, death here denotes separation from God.

CadyandZoe
Nov 10th 2017, 04:09 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "Jesus...said that he would be in the tomb for three days, and as it turned out he was in the tomb Thursday, Friday, and Saturday."


He also said that three nights would be involved. How do you account for the lack of a third night?

I'm in the middle of a big job right now, but after I'm through, I will create a small illustration that should clear this up. The nights are Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night.

CadyandZoe
Nov 10th 2017, 04:12 PM
I agree.

Due to Adam's sin, ALL are dead [separated from God] in sin (starting with the original sin of Adam and our own sins), but made alive or quickened when we turn to Christ.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are savedhttp://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/wink.gif

It is common to misinterpret this "quickening" as the resurrection from the grave, but that's not what the text means as the subtext in the bracket (by grace ye are saved) clarifies.

And I disagree with that interpretation.

CadyandZoe
Nov 10th 2017, 04:18 PM
Isn't it about semantics? We know that spirit don't die literally, ergo, death here denotes separation from God.We are not talking semantics. Ken is asking me whether those in Adam have dead spirits. The answer is no, their spirits are not dead.

If by "separation" you mean something like "alienated" or "estranged" or "in rebellion" or "enmity", then yes, human beings in Adam are at enmity with God until they make peace and reconciliation with God through the cross of Christ. But in the context of Ephesians, the term "death" does not indicate a dead spirit and neither does it indicate enmity with God; it indicates the future punishment of those in Adam who neglect to make peace with God.

rstrats
Nov 10th 2017, 06:36 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "The nights are Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night."


Thursday night couldn't have been involved because it had been over some 9 hours by the time of the Messiah's death.

CadyandZoe
Nov 10th 2017, 07:28 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "The nights are Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night."


Thursday night couldn't have been involved because it had been over some 9 hours by the time of the Messiah's death.

I'm using Roman time for the days of the week. Does that work?

I really should make a chart.

rstrats
Nov 10th 2017, 08:59 PM
CadyandZoe,
re: "I'm using Roman time for the days of the week. Does that work?"


Not really. Firstly, how do you know that the Messiah was using a midnight to midnight calendar day? And secondly, a midnight to midnight calendar day would include at least 4 night times.

ProDeo
Nov 11th 2017, 12:42 AM
I'm using Roman time for the days of the week. Does that work?

I really should make a chart.
Perhaps there are plenty available on the net ;)

ewq1938
Nov 11th 2017, 02:05 AM
The best commentaries on this say that there were two Sabbaths in the week Christ died and was buried. One was the normal Saturday one and then there was another one related to Passover. If I understand it right, he was buried on a Thursday and rose on a Sunday, The Hebrew dates of the 15th, 16th and 17th of Nisan. So buried in the day of Thursday, and being there Thursday night, Friday day, Friday night, Saturday day and Saturday night, rising Sunday morning so he was in the tomb a 3 days and three nights. One day, Thursday being a partial day which still counts as a day in Jewish tradition.


Check these links out for more information:


http://www.pointsoftruth.com/articles/threedays.html

http://3daysandnights.com/twoSabbaths.php

jeffweeder
Nov 11th 2017, 02:41 AM
Truthfully and in faith, the burial and resurrection of LORD JESUS CHRIST, must fulfill according prediction, that 'three days - 36 hours' and 'three nights - 36 hours', and 72 hours exactly His body will be in the heart of the earth.


That would mean he would have to rise on the 4th day right?

Tony P
Nov 11th 2017, 03:17 AM
The best commentaries on this say that there were two Sabbaths in the week Christ died and was buried. One was the normal Saturday one and then there was another one related to Passover. If I understand it right, he was buried on a Thursday and rose on a Sunday, The Hebrew dates of the 15th, 16th and 17th of Nisan. So buried in the day of Thursday, and being there Thursday night, Friday day, Friday night, Saturday day and Saturday night, rising Sunday morning so he was in the tomb a 3 days and three nights. One day, Thursday being a partial day which still counts as a day in Jewish tradition.

Precisely. All Biblical accounting starts with today/now being one. Tomorrow is two, etc. When they are born, they are in their first year. Therefore, they are one at birth.

Tony P
Nov 11th 2017, 03:23 AM
CadyandZoe,
re: "The nights are Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night."


Thursday night couldn't have been involved because it had been over some 9 hours by the time of the Messiah's death.

You are thinking like a modern day lawyer. Any part of a day is counted throughout the whole Bible. The same is true for a year. A king could have ascended to the throne in the 11th month and that would be year one for him. Year two would start in the first month again, a matter of days away. The king could have been in office 45 days and it would be his second year in my example. The modern world accounts things differently. The ancient world accounted the way the Bible does. Even the Babylonians and Egyptians. Modern thinking makes simple things difficult.

Slug1
Nov 11th 2017, 04:37 AM
You are thinking like a modern day lawyer. Any part of a day is counted throughout the whole Bible. The same is true for a year. A king could have ascended to the throne in the 11th month and that would be year one for him. Year two would start in the first month again, a matter of days away. The king could have been in office 45 days and it would be his second year in my example. The modern world accounts things differently. The ancient world accounted the way the Bible does. Even the Babylonians and Egyptians. Modern thinking makes simple things difficult.Hooah! We sometimes fail to understand that "logic" can work against us in trying to understand the scriptures. We have to think as God does, look at scriptures from "His" point of view so we can understand exactly what He is teaching, His way.

rstrats
Nov 11th 2017, 12:03 PM
jeffweeder,
re: "That would mean he would have to rise on the 4th day right?"

Right. Mark 8:31 says that the the Messiah taught that He would rise after 3 days.