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jeffweeder
Feb 5th 2011, 08:57 AM
:hmm:

The foundation of the new world to come is built upon the 12 Disciples of the Lamb.

Who is the 12th Disciple if it wasnt Judas Iscariot?
 
Why did the 11 feel the need to keep it at 12 by electing Matthias?

Why did Jesus choose Paul to evangelise the Gentile world?

Seems to me that Paul is part of the foundation of the New Jerusalem, because many Gentiles are going to dwell there because of his God given Ministry.


Any thoughts about this is going to be interesting.:)

God bless the lot of ya.
 
 

Mark F
Feb 5th 2011, 01:12 PM
Acts 1:25 quotes Psalm 69 and 109 that says "another shall take his office". They needed, in their eyes a witness of Jesus work and resurrection according to what we're told.

I'll have to consider why He chose Paul.

I'm interested where your going with this.

notuptome
Feb 5th 2011, 01:36 PM
The apostles chose Matthias...will of men. Jesus chose Paul...will of God. Gal 1:15

I would consider the possibility that Judas will remain the twelfth apostle and will appear as one of the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Psalms Fan
Feb 5th 2011, 01:58 PM
I would suggest this as the reason why Matthias was chosen: Jesus chose a group of 12, and that group held a specific office. 1 fell away and they needed to replace him in order to both fulfill the scripture and to keep the number at 12 according to Jesus' choosing.

I have to disagree with notuptome that Matthias was "man's choice" and that Paul was "God's choice", and you're not the first person that I've heard that from. There are a couple reasons why I disagree. One is that that idea is not hinted at in Scripture. Matthias was chosen according to a way that had been given to the Israelites in the Law of Moses, and that is casting lots. That was done numerous times throughout the Old Testament to find out God's will in a matter, and it was accurate because God guided it. In this case, the lot fell to Matthias (notice that this is the last time in Scripture that you'll find lots being cast as a way to find God's will. Soon after the Holy Spirit is given and we no longer need to cast lots).

The other reason is that there were other people besides the 12 who were called "apostles". There was a group called "The Seventy", and they were all referred to as Apostles. Paul was another person who was called "Apostle". Paul was not Judas' replacement. Rather he, like The Seventy, was separate from The Twelve but was an Apostle nonetheless.

notuptome
Feb 5th 2011, 02:55 PM
I would suggest this as the reason why Matthias was chosen: Jesus chose a group of 12, and that group held a specific office. 1 fell away and they needed to replace him in order to both fulfill the scripture and to keep the number at 12 according to Jesus' choosing.

I have to disagree with notuptome that Matthias was "man's choice" and that Paul was "God's choice", and you're not the first person that I've heard that from. There are a couple reasons why I disagree. One is that that idea is not hinted at in Scripture. Matthias was chosen according to a way that had been given to the Israelites in the Law of Moses, and that is casting lots. That was done numerous times throughout the Old Testament to find out God's will in a matter, and it was accurate because God guided it. In this case, the lot fell to Matthias (notice that this is the last time in Scripture that you'll find lots being cast as a way to find God's will. Soon after the Holy Spirit is given and we no longer need to cast lots).

The other reason is that there were other people besides the 12 who were called "apostles". There was a group called "The Seventy", and they were all referred to as Apostles. Paul was another person who was called "Apostle". Paul was not Judas' replacement. Rather he, like The Seventy, was separate from The Twelve but was an Apostle nonetheless.
The apostles were under no command from Jesus to choose a replacement for Judas. Peter in his usual leap before you look manner did what seemed proper to him. Matthias really never amounted to a great deal at least not much that is recorded in scripture. It is a good illustration of how we often act in our own volition when we should have waited for the power of the Holy Spirit to guide our actions.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

asterisktom
Feb 6th 2011, 06:36 PM
:hmm:

The foundation of the new world to come is built upon the 12 Disciples of the Lamb.

Who is the 12th Disciple if it wasnt Judas Iscariot?
 
Why did the 11 feel the need to keep it at 12 by electing Matthias?

Why did Jesus choose Paul to evangelise the Gentile world?

Seems to me that Paul is part of the foundation of the New Jerusalem, because many Gentiles are going to dwell there because of his God given Ministry.


Any thoughts about this is going to be interesting.:)

God bless the lot of ya.
 
 

A good question here. May I suggest that there really is only one foundation, and that is Christ? This passage you refer to in Revelation does indeed speak of twelve foundations. However it states that the names of the apostles are on the foundations, but not that they are the foundations. Additionally, I believe we should take these "twelve foundations" in the same way we take the earlier description of the "seven Spirits of God". Numbers in Revelation are just one of the types of symbols found there. I believe we should not press them too literally.

BTW, Ephesians 2:20 speaks of the "foundation (singular) of the apostles", but then goes on to reveal Christ as the real, underlying foundation.

Tom Riggle
http://asterisktom.xanga.com/

nzyr
Feb 7th 2011, 10:48 AM
Who is the 12th Disciple if it wasn't Judas Iscariot?


The bible doesn't really say.

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Revelation 21:14)

markedward
Feb 7th 2011, 04:14 PM
Where does Scripture say that God disapproved of the choosing of Matthias? It doesn't. Occam's Razor: you can't claim the choosing of Matthias was "the will of men" in contradiction to "the will of God".

RabbiKnife
Feb 7th 2011, 05:02 PM
I just hope those 12 (or 11) (or 13) guys don't get tired standing there holding that big ol' thing up on their shoulders all the time.

Just sayin'.

notuptome
Feb 7th 2011, 05:43 PM
Where does Scripture say that God disapproved of the choosing of Matthias? It doesn't. Occam's Razor: you can't claim the choosing of Matthias was "the will of men" in contradiction to "the will of God".
One can claim anything they want.

If we are to know them by their fruit, and we are, what fruit do we have to support the contention that God chose Matthias to replace Judas? Paul chosen by God has considerable evidence to support the contention that he was in fact an apostle.

It's all kind of a mute point if you subscribe to the idea that there apostles even today.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RabbiKnife
Feb 7th 2011, 05:45 PM
What about Barnabas, Silas, Luke, etc...

How many 'postles are we permitting, and if we count everyone in the NT that is called "apostle," then who picks the 12 Atlases to hold the New J up?

notuptome
Feb 7th 2011, 05:46 PM
I just hope those 12 (or 11) (or 13) guys don't get tired standing there holding that big ol' thing up on their shoulders all the time.

Just sayin'.
Be certain to get your name on the list to spell them guys every now and them. I wonder what kind of perks might be involved?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

David Taylor
Feb 8th 2011, 04:57 PM
Where does Scripture say that God disapproved of the choosing of Matthias? It doesn't. Occam's Razor: you can't claim the choosing of Matthias was "the will of men" in contradiction to "the will of God".

If anything, that Luke recorded Mattias' selection, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to record it, is the intended confirmation.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Feb 9th 2011, 03:06 PM
If anything, that Luke recorded Mattias' selection, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to record it, is the intended confirmation.

However it applies in this or any other case, this is the "forgetten apologetic" in many instances... simple expression by inspiration of the HS.

Beckrl
Feb 14th 2011, 01:56 AM
:hmm:

The foundation of the new world to come is built upon the 12 Disciples of the Lamb.

Who is the 12th Disciple if it wasnt Judas Iscariot?
 
Why did the 11 feel the need to keep it at 12 by electing Matthias?
There is a difference made from the Disciples unto his Apostles. It is the Apostles that are said to be a represenation of the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem. So it would not include Judas Iscariot but would Matthias.



Why did Jesus choose Paul to evangelise the Gentile world?


A gentile to preach unto the gentiles, howbeit he was a Jew.


Seems to me that Paul is part of the foundation of the New Jerusalem, because many Gentiles are going to dwell there because of his God given Ministry.Well, as in the book of Revelation and how John is given this revelation of the New Jerusalem as given to the 12 apostles and the 12 tribes of the children of Israel this places no gentiles as the city itself, but that those gentiles that are saved shall walk in it's light. So there is a distinction made form the city [Jews] and those [Gentile] that walk into it's gates. I have in other thread made mention of the the word 'ethnos' gentile, nation which could be understood to mean 'uncircumision of the flesh' this would apply to Jew and Greek. The Jew in this case would be seen as the out cast of Israel, those not allowed to enter the earthly temple gates. Those called by Jews as Gentiles or the uncircumsized, but that's totally another topic.


Beck