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episkopos
Feb 6th 2011, 04:58 PM
I was discussing the gospel with a certain brother the other day, and he really floored me. He stated that there are actually three DIFFERENT gospels in the NT.

He stated that the gospel of the kingdom preached by Christ and the apostles is not for Gentiles but only for the Jews. That now there is a gospel of grace given exclusively by Paul. It is only he we must heed. And there will be another gospel to be preached before the end. He told to look for it in Revelations.

When I tried reasoning with him out of the OT he said we cannot use the OT because that was for the Jews too.

So we must ignore Christ's teachings, and the OT prophets. WOW! Where do people get this stuff?

Has anyone heard something similar? This guy is in a mainstream denom.

Neanias
Feb 6th 2011, 05:14 PM
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Maybe they had a typo in their bible, or just read it too fast... It does not in fact say for the " gospels' " sake, but rather for the "gospel's" sake.;)

How can we be redeemed by the blood of Christ when in fact we are following another Gospel? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Firstfruits
Feb 6th 2011, 05:50 PM
Scripture is clear and in agreement with "Highlander" "There can be only one"

1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Firstfruits

asterisktom
Feb 6th 2011, 05:51 PM
I was discussing the gospel with a certain brother the other day, and he really floored me. He stated that there are actually three DIFFERENT gospels in the NT.

He stated that the gospel of the kingdom preached by Christ and the apostles is not for Gentiles but only for the Jews. That now there is a gospel of grace given exclusively by Paul. It is only he we must heed. And there will be another gospel to be preached before the end. He told to look for it in Revelations.

When I tried reasoning with him out of the OT he said we cannot use the OT because that was for the Jews too.

So we must ignore Christ's teachings, and the OT prophets. WOW! Where do people get this stuff?

Has anyone heard something similar? This guy is in a mainstream denom.

There is only one Gospel. It goes under different names according to what is emphasized. In Revelation it is referred to as the "Everlasting Gospel". Paul calls it, in one place, "my Gospel". Yet it is the same thing. I have actual heard preachers take each of these passages and whittled separate "Gospels" out of it! Of course, these are the same ones that teach of so many different crowns for believers (soul-winners crown, overcomer's crown, etc.).

I really believe that a lot of the misunderstanding of biblical doctrine comes from not taking into consideration biblical idiom and background.

Tom Riggle
http://asterisktom.xanga.com/

Neanias
Feb 6th 2011, 05:58 PM
Scripture is clear and in agreement with "Highlander" "There can be only one"

1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Firstfruits

Very nice... I would say you hit it right on :)

BroRog
Feb 6th 2011, 06:01 PM
I was discussing the gospel with a certain brother the other day, and he really floored me. He stated that there are actually three DIFFERENT gospels in the NT.

He stated that the gospel of the kingdom preached by Christ and the apostles is not for Gentiles but only for the Jews. That now there is a gospel of grace given exclusively by Paul. It is only he we must heed. And there will be another gospel to be preached before the end. He told to look for it in Revelations.

When I tried reasoning with him out of the OT he said we cannot use the OT because that was for the Jews too.

So we must ignore Christ's teachings, and the OT prophets. WOW! Where do people get this stuff?

Has anyone heard something similar? This guy is in a mainstream denom.When Jesus came preaching "the kingdom of God is at hand", which kingdom do you suppose he meant? What did Mary, and Zacharias, and Elizabeth understand in Gabriel's announcement?

Firstfruits
Feb 6th 2011, 06:05 PM
Very nice... I would say you hit it right on :)

Thank you Neanias,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

dagar
Feb 6th 2011, 06:58 PM
I was discussing the gospel with a certain brother the other day, and he really floored me. He stated that there are actually three DIFFERENT gospels in the NT.

He stated that the gospel of the kingdom preached by Christ and the apostles is not for Gentiles but only for the Jews. That now there is a gospel of grace given exclusively by Paul. It is only he we must heed. And there will be another gospel to be preached before the end. He told to look for it in Revelations.

When I tried reasoning with him out of the OT he said we cannot use the OT because that was for the Jews too.

So we must ignore Christ's teachings, and the OT prophets. WOW! Where do people get this stuff?

Has anyone heard something similar? This guy is in a mainstream denom.He is splitting up


the kingdom of heaven
the kingdom of God
this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached -Mat 24:14

It's nothing new and does no harm to split up (not to divide but to make a disctinction)


the kingdom of heaven -- this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached
the kingdom of God

The reason "the kingdom of heaven" and "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached" is considered gospel is because it is the coming of Messiah to rule and reign and restore the kingdom to Israel. Israel is still anticipating this glorious event because it has not come. These are not the kingdom of God which is now in you and upon you in measure and will come in fullness of power at His return. I have no clue why your friend said to look in Revelation for three. However the everlasting gospel and the kingdoms of this earth becoming the kingdoms of Christ are there.

There's only one gospel and that is to believe on Jesus Christ. This is done in both cases above. The remnant of Israel will turn to Jesus Christ.

episkopos
Feb 6th 2011, 07:11 PM
When Jesus came preaching "the kingdom of God is at hand", which kingdom do you suppose he meant? What did Mary, and Zacharias, and Elizabeth understand in Gabriel's announcement?

First point- The kingdom of God is already a spiritual reality...and always has been.

Second point- Jesus preached that heavenly reality.

Third point- Jesus invited the Jews first to partake of that kingdom.

Fourth point- After a portion of the Jews came into the kingdom, the nations were also invited in. God has no favourites. He is not prejudiced or bigoted in any way. He wishes to destroy the possibiblity of men to aggrandize themselves through personal favouritism. This fact has not dawned on many as of yet!!!!

Israel according to the flesh cannot boast of their carnal circumcision. All must humble themselves and receive the circumcision made without hands. No one can boast of a noble birth. We are to be born from above by the will of God and not men.

We Gentiles who come afterward cannot boast of being preferred to the Jews as they were called first. We enter into THEIR commonwealth. We are the newbies!

So no man has grounds for boasting!


Israel are they who overcome through the Lord. Whether Jew or Gentile...we are all men....it matters not.

The spiritual reality takes precedence over what goes on in the temporal world. "Thy will be done on earth as (it already is) in heaven."

We are to be CONFORMED to Christ and His kingdom. If we are not thus conformed we will be rejected as many of Israel have been rejected. There is no favouritism with God.

episkopos
Feb 6th 2011, 07:19 PM
Israel is one entity both Jew and Gentile. First the natural (as a symbol) and then the spiritual (as a sign).

This has been the plan of God from the very beginning. Notice in Genesis 35 (and please pay attention)

Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. 11And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;


In Hebrew it says

goy vekehal goyim

This means that Israel is a nation AND a congregation (the word kehal can mean church or congregation) of Gentiles.

episkopos
Feb 6th 2011, 07:32 PM
He is splitting up


the kingdom of heaven
the kingdom of God
this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached -Mat 24:14

It's nothing new and does no harm to split up (not to divide but to make a disctinction)


the kingdom of heaven -- this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached
the kingdom of God

The reason "the kingdom of heaven" and "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached" is considered gospel is because it is the coming of Messiah to rule and reign and restore the kingdom to Israel. Israel is still anticipating this glorious event because it has not come. These are not the kingdom of God which is now in you and upon you in measure and will come in fullness of power at His return. I have no clue why your friend said to look in Revelation for three. However the everlasting gospel and the kingdoms of this earth becoming the kingdoms of Christ are there.

There's only one gospel and that is to believe on Jesus Christ. This is done in both cases above. The remnant of Israel will turn to Jesus Christ.

I appreciate your answer Dagar.

The gospel is the good news of the redemption of mankind from the power of darkness into the light. It is the freedom from captivity into the glorious liberty that we were created in originally.


Belief is beside the point. One must enter into the divine reality as one believes the gospel. If I say I believe it...there is no power. But if enter in by faith I am there. In other words there is a spiritual reality we need to live from, not just believe in.

A person can believe there is a place called Mongolia. But there are those people we call Mongolians...because they live there! If I wish to become a Mongolian, I will sell all I have and MOVE THERE.

So for us the promised land is a spiritual place we are to live from not just believe in.

Jesus said...Abide in ME.

He is our nation.

The kingdom that is of Christ and in Christ will come upon the earth to displace the temporal reality for all men at the same time.

In the meantime we are invited to enter into the kingdom reality through faith. Do we believe we can walk in the power of the resurrection? If we do, we will seek for this new land with all we have. If we treat the gospel superficially, we will give lip service and say we believe. But we have done nothing in reality. We are making believe. There is no divine power in us.

The reason why men make false distictions about the kingdom is that they have not seen the kingdom. One must be born again from above to see it and perceive it. One becomes a Christian in reality when one LIVES in Christ. We then become a sign to the world.

This is the only option we have to enter the kingdom in this age. Call it the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven...call it being IN Christ. Where He is we will also be.

There is One God, one kingdom, and one glorious gospel that provides the power to enter into the presence of God.

Neanias
Feb 6th 2011, 07:41 PM
1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.

episkopos
Feb 6th 2011, 07:46 PM
To those who say that Paul preached a gospel of grace and not the gospel of the kingdom, Paul writes...

Acts 28:28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” [29]
30 For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. 31 [B]He proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ—with all boldness and without hindrance!

dagar
Feb 6th 2011, 07:56 PM
I appreciate your answer Dagar.

The gospel is the good news of the redemption of mankind from the power of darkness into the light.Gospel is a word just like any other word is a word and it means good message or tidings. To Israel the coming of Messiah to restore the kingdom to Israel is a good message or tidings.

Firstfruits
Feb 6th 2011, 08:01 PM
Gospel is a word just like any other word is a word and it means good message or tidings. To Israel the coming of Messiah to restore the kingdom to Israel is a good message or tidings.

What is the message of the gospel of Christ?

Mk 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Firstfruits

WSGAC
Feb 6th 2011, 08:05 PM
I think the idea of "two gospels" originated when bible readers realized that Jesus wasn't going into the towns and villages of Galilee imploring people to believe in his atoning death (ie. what present day evangelicals preach as the gospel message). How could he preach of his atoning death, when he had not yet died and risen? Indeed, what Jesus preached was the good news of the Kingdom.

I doubt seriously Jesus ever asked the question, "If you were to die tonight, do you know where you would spend eternity?"...and then followed up that question with, "Believe that I will die for your sins and you will have eternal life." His message was, "The Kingdom of God has come upon you!"

"Paul," the same people will argue, "preached a gospel of atonement for sin, preaching Christ and him crucified." But this is a very narrow view of what Paul preached. Still, this probably gave rise to the idea of two gospels - 1)The good news of the Kingdom. 2) The good news of the atonement.

BroRog
Feb 6th 2011, 08:09 PM
First point- The kingdom of God is already a spiritual reality...and always has been. If it was already a spiritual reality, why does he say the kingdom is "at hand", i.e. near, rather than "here" as you suggest?


Second point- Jesus preached that heavenly reality.From my reading of the New Testament, he preached a kingdom that was "among you", but he also preached a kingdom "to come." He preached a kingdom to be sought, and a kingdom one will enter. He preached about a kingdom that would begin as a small seed, but grow up into a large tree.


Third point- Jesus invited the Jews first to partake of that kingdom.Agreed


Fourth point- After a portion of the Jews came into the kingdom, the nations were also invited in. God has no favourites. He is not prejudiced or bigoted in any way. He wishes to destroy the possibiblity of men to aggrandize themselves through personal favouritism. This fact has not dawned on many as of yet!!!! Are you kidding? Antibiggotry is the cry and focuse of our age, so much so, that it clouds our judgment as regards God's plans for Israel.


Israel according to the flesh cannot boast of their carnal circumcision. All must humble themselves and receive the circumcision made without hands. No one can boast of a noble birth. We are to be born from above by the will of God and not men.Actually, Paul says that those who keep the law (as would be the case for Zacharias and Elizabeth) can indeed boast of their circumcision. It was the antisemitism of the ECF's that started us down this road, creating a schism between Jews and Christians as if Jesus and Paul came to destroy the law, and to cause the people to abandon the hope of their fathers. We have a chance today to rectify this situation and to lead the Jews to their inheritance, which belongs to them according to their heritage.

Paul warned us not to boast against the branches, and in saying this, he was talking about the branches that were broken off.


We Gentiles who come afterward cannot boast of being preferred to the Jews as they were called first. We enter into THEIR commonwealth. We are the newbies!

So no man has grounds for boasting! Sure we do. As Paul says, we boast in the hope of the glory of God, we boast in our tribulations, and we boast in God who has provided this reconciliation for us.


Israel are they who overcome through the Lord. Whether Jew or Gentile...we are all men....it matters not. I see no Biblical evidence for the idea that "Israel" is the abstract concept you suggest.


The spiritual reality takes precedence over what goes on in the temporal world. "Thy will be done on earth as (it already is) in heaven."And so we can see that we are to pray that God would bring about his earthly kingdom. Otherwise, why pray for his will to be done on earth?


We are to be CONFORMED to Christ and His kingdom. If we are not thus conformed we will be rejected as many of Israel have been rejected. There is no favouritism with God.Yes, but again, this is all beside the point as it pertains to God's project to reconstitute the nation of Israel, and establish his holy nation in the land of the fathers, which is the hope of Israel, which is the gospel to the Jews.

dagar
Feb 6th 2011, 08:09 PM
What is the message of the gospel of Christ?That's not the question at hand.

Firstfruits
Feb 6th 2011, 08:26 PM
That's not the question at hand.

But there is only one gospel, the message of the gospel must be known in order to say that what is being taught is true or false.

Do you agree?

Firstfruits

dagar
Feb 6th 2011, 08:34 PM
If it was already a spiritual reality, why does he say the kingdom is "at hand", i.e. near, rather than "here" as you suggest?

From my reading of the New Testament, he preached a kingdom that was "among you", but he also preached a kingdom "to come." He preached a kingdom to be sought, and a kingdom one will enter. He preached about a kingdom that would begin as a small seed, but grow up into a large tree.

Agreed

Are you kidding? Antibiggotry is the cry and focuse of our age, so much so, that it clouds our judgment as regards God's plans for Israel.

Actually, Paul says that those who keep the law (as would be the case for Zacharias and Elizabeth) can indeed boast of their circumcision. It was the antisemitism of the ECF's that started us down this road, creating a schism between Jews and Christians as if Jesus and Paul came to destroy the law, and to cause the people to abandon the hope of their fathers. We have a chance today to rectify this situation and to lead the Jews to their inheritance, which belongs to them according to their heritage.

Paul warned us not to boast against the branches, and in saying this, he was talking about the branches that were broken off.

Sure we do. As Paul says, we boast in the hope of the glory of God, we boast in our tribulations, and we boast in God who has provided this reconciliation for us.

I see no Biblical evidence for the idea that "Israel" is the abstract concept you suggest.

And so we can see that we are to pray that God would bring about his earthly kingdom. Otherwise, why pray for his will to be done on earth?

Yes, but again, this is all beside the point as it pertains to God's project to reconstitute the nation of Israel, and establish his holy nation in the land of the fathers, which is the hope of Israel, which is the gospel to the Jews.:thumbsup:

:amen:

:agree:

dagar
Feb 6th 2011, 08:54 PM
Belief is beside the point.how can you say this? Jesus said to believe.


One must enter into the divine reality as one believes the gospel. If I say I believe it...there is no power. But if enter in by faith I am there. In other words there is a spiritual reality we need to live from, not just believe in.Jesus said believe in and on me.


So for us the promised land is a spiritual place we are to live from not just believe in.The promised land is in the middle east.


In the meantime we are invited to enter into the kingdom reality through faith.No it's reality is not yet.


Do we believe we can walk in the power of the resurrection? If we do, we will seek for this new land with all we have.The new earth will come.


The reason why men make false distictions about the kingdom is that they have not seen the kingdom. One must be born again from above to see it and perceive it.Very few have. It is not observable in fullness for almost all. Jesus said a few would see it before they died.


This is the only option we have to enter the kingdom in this age. Call it the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven...call it being IN Christ. Where He is we will also be.

There is One God, one kingdom, and one glorious gospel that provides the power to enter into the presence of God.Being born again did not get me into Christ's physical reign on earth in this age. That is still to come.

WSGAC
Feb 6th 2011, 09:00 PM
Being born again did not get me into Christ's physical reign on earth in this age. That is still to come.

No, but being born from above brings you into the spiritual reign. Eternal life begins now, not at death.

dagar
Feb 6th 2011, 09:07 PM
No, but being born from above brings you into the spiritual reign. Eternal life begins now, not at death.Agreed. As long as one doesn't try to say this is the kingdom in fullness and that there is no physical future kingdom -heaven.

dagar
Feb 6th 2011, 09:56 PM
But there is only one gospel, the message of the gospel must be known in order to say that what is being taught is true or false.

Do you agree?

FirstfruitsNo I do not agree. To an Israelite looking for the Messiah, the gospel is the Messiah's arrival.

Neanias
Feb 6th 2011, 10:10 PM
No, but being born from above brings you into the spiritual reign. Eternal life begins now, not at death.

Amen brother!

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

The Kingdom of God came with power at pentecost, and that is what the kingdom is. It is in power not in talk. That is why it says that we were saved by his death, and much more we are saved by his life! That is his life! The power and grace to be as he is!

Neanias
Feb 6th 2011, 10:16 PM
Today most 'believers' don't actually believe this, and they walk by the OT standard, where this kind of power was not yet given... That is, the life of Christ.

But we must seek something more if we truly wish to abide in Christ.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 12:34 AM
Gospel is a word just like any other word is a word and it means good message or tidings. To Israel the coming of Messiah to restore the kingdom to Israel is a good message or tidings.

...amd a misunderstood message it is. Israel is not what people think it is. The gospel is not just any good news; nor is it the good news of our choosing.

Revelation 14: 6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
having the EVERLASTING GOSPEL to preach unto them that dwell on earth, and to every nation and kindred and tongue and people.

Unless we believe that there are various gospels, we see that the gospel is eternal in nature. This goes far beyond the hopes and aspirations of men. It is by the will of God Himself.

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 12:37 AM
I think the idea of "two gospels" originated when bible readers realized that Jesus wasn't going into the towns and villages of Galilee imploring people to believe in his atoning death (ie. what present day evangelicals preach as the gospel message). How could he preach of his atoning death, when he had not yet died and risen? Indeed, what Jesus preached was the good news of the Kingdom.

I doubt seriously Jesus ever asked the question, "If you were to die tonight, do you know where you would spend eternity?"...and then followed up that question with, "Believe that I will die for your sins and you will have eternal life." His message was, "The Kingdom of God has come upon you!"

"Paul," the same people will argue, "preached a gospel of atonement for sin, preaching Christ and him crucified." But this is a very narrow view of what Paul preached. Still, this probably gave rise to the idea of two gospels - 1)The good news of the Kingdom. 2) The good news of the atonement.

I agree. Paul was simply being all things to all men. He was speaking in terms that Gentiles of that time might understand. But the infrstructure that Paul was speaking into is now gone. I think he would be saddened by what many today promote as his teachings.

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 12:39 AM
Amen brother!

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

The Kingdom of God came with power at pentecost, and that is what the kingdom is. It is in power not in talk. That is why it says that we were saved by his death, and much more we are saved by his life! That is his life! The power and grace to be as he is!That's just one of two interpretations. Most with more sound doctrine agree he was referring to his transfiguration in the following verses.

Neanias
Feb 7th 2011, 12:44 AM
That's just one of two interpretations. Most with more sound doctrine agree he was referring to his transfiguration in the following verses.

Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

This one though, does not refer to the transfiguration. ;)

The kingdom DID come with power at pentecost, and today still this is available...

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 12:49 AM
how can you say this? Jesus said to believe.

Jesus said believe in and on me.

The promised land is in the middle east.

No it's reality is not yet.

The new earth will come.

Very few have. It is not observable in fullness for almost all. Jesus said a few would see it before they died.

Being born again did not get me into Christ's physical reign on earth in this age. That is still to come.

This is of course a temporal reasoning. We are preparing for the time when history is swallowed up in Christ's victory. Although the carnal eye can't yet see, yet the spiritual eyes can. Jesus counsels us to buy eye salve that we may see.

This is the purpose of faith. That we seek as if knowing what is coming. Jesus says...seek and you will find!!!! Who believes this? Well, only them that find.

This is how we know we have a biblical faith.

We have found!!!! :)

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 12:53 AM
If it was already a spiritual reality, why does he say the kingdom is "at hand", i.e. near, rather than "here" as you suggest?

From my reading of the New Testament, he preached a kingdom that was "among you", but he also preached a kingdom "to come." He preached a kingdom to be sought, and a kingdom one will enter. He preached about a kingdom that would begin as a small seed, but grow up into a large tree.

Agreed

Are you kidding? Antibiggotry is the cry and focuse of our age, so much so, that it clouds our judgment as regards God's plans for Israel.

Actually, Paul says that those who keep the law (as would be the case for Zacharias and Elizabeth) can indeed boast of their circumcision. It was the antisemitism of the ECF's that started us down this road, creating a schism between Jews and Christians as if Jesus and Paul came to destroy the law, and to cause the people to abandon the hope of their fathers. We have a chance today to rectify this situation and to lead the Jews to their inheritance, which belongs to them according to their heritage.

Paul warned us not to boast against the branches, and in saying this, he was talking about the branches that were broken off.

Sure we do. As Paul says, we boast in the hope of the glory of God, we boast in our tribulations, and we boast in God who has provided this reconciliation for us.

I see no Biblical evidence for the idea that "Israel" is the abstract concept you suggest.

And so we can see that we are to pray that God would bring about his earthly kingdom. Otherwise, why pray for his will to be done on earth?

Yes, but again, this is all beside the point as it pertains to God's project to reconstitute the nation of Israel, and establish his holy nation in the land of the fathers, which is the hope of Israel, which is the gospel to the Jews.

The kingdom is at hand where Jesus Christ IS. The kingdom of God is not HERE on earth. In the next age things will be very different than now. You can't explain eternal things with a mind focussed on the temporal. Spiritual things are foolishness and abstractions to the temporal carnal mind.



The Jews were mistaken about the nature of the gospel. So apparently are many Christians.

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 12:58 AM
...amd a misunderstood message it is. Israel is not what people think it is. The gospel is not just any good news; nor is it the good news of our choosing.

Revelation 14: 6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
having the EVERLASTING GOSPEL to preach unto them that dwell on earth, and to every nation and kindred and tongue and people.

Unless we believe that there are various gospels, we see that the gospel is eternal in nature. This goes far beyond the hopes and aspirations of men. It is by the will of God Himself.So you deny "To Israel the coming of Messiah to restore the kingdom to Israel is a good message or tidings"? Interesting. Even more than that you claim they should not be looking for Messiah. Interesting. Good ole replacement theology. Why would this necessitate various gospels? Is He not the Lamb provided by God to take away the sin of the world -Jew and Gentile? How does this make the everlasting gospel mortal? What is the aspirations of man you refer to? Where do you get this spiritual pablum? Why do you try to destroy the power of the gospel of the coming kingdom -Mat 24:14, by diluting it as something already here? Everyone knows it is not. God gave man dominion over all the works of his hands but man allowed sin to reign unto death and God needed a man to bring heaven and earth back together that righteousness would reign unto life because the earth is the place He decided to dwell with man for eternity. Is this not true? Where do I misunderstand?

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 01:00 AM
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

This one though, does not refer to the transfiguration. ;)

The kingdom DID come with power at pentecost, and today still this is available...

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:I wasn't talking about that one ;)
These others do not relate to Mar 9:1 that is about the transfiguration in any way.

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 01:04 AM
So you deny "To Israel the coming of Messiah to restore the kingdom to Israel is a good message or tidings"? Interesting. Even more than that you claim they should not be looking for Messiah. Interesting. Good ole replacement theology. Why would this necessitate various gospels? Is He not the Lamb provided by God to take away the sin of the world -Jew and Gentile? How does this make the everlasting gospel mortal? What is the aspirations of man you refer to? Where do you get this spiritual pablum? Why do you try to destroy the power of the gospel of the coming kingdom -Mat 24:14, by diluting it as something already here? Everyone knows it is not. God gave man dominion over all the works of his hands but man allowed sin to reign unto death and God needed a man to bring heaven and earth back together that righteousness would reign unto life because the earth is the place He decided to dwell with man for eternity. Is this not true? Where do I misunderstand?

What I speak of is INCLUSION theology as opposed to sectarian theology.

I never said the kingdom was HERE. The kingdom exist in the eternal reality....where God dwells. Have you seen God with your physical eyes? If not (of course) is God then just an abstract concept that does not yet exist?

You are putting humans BEFORE God. Humans do what humans do. They can believe any number of things.

But God IS. His reign IS. The gospel is the message of an invitation with the requisite power to ENTER into that reign.

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 01:13 AM
This is of course a temporal reasoning.That's actually what I thought about your post. Even look at what you said here....


We are preparing for the time when history is swallowed up in Christ's victory. Although the carnal eye can't yet see, yet the spiritual eyes can. Jesus counsels us to buy eye salve that we may see.

This is the purpose of faith. That we seek as if knowing what is coming. Jesus says...seek and you will find!!!! Who believes this? Well, only them that find.

This is how we know we have a biblical faith.

We have found!!!! :)It's so temporal and nearsighted. It says nothing about the glorious future and things God has in store for us that the Spirit has already revealed. You say we seek as if knowing, as if we don't. That we are preparing for history to be swallowed up, but scripture does not indicate history is swallowed up when Christ returns. He must put down all rule and authority, rule with a rod of iron, us with Him first. Then you contradict yourself and say we have found.

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 01:15 AM
The kingdom of God is not HERE on earth.Why do people say it came a Pentecost? :hmm:

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 01:17 AM
I never said the kingdom was HERE. The kingdom exist in the eternal reality....where God dwells. Have you seen God with your physical eyes? If not (of course) is God then just an abstract concept that does not yet exist?But Jesus told the Pharisees "the kingdom of God is within you."

Neanias
Feb 7th 2011, 01:19 AM
I wasn't talking about that one ;)
These others do not relate to Mar 9:1 that is about the transfiguration in any way.

Is this other one then not enough?

It still shows that the kingdom is indeed in power and not in talk. We are not walk in his life and not our own. As episkopos said, "The kingdom that is of Christ and in Christ will come upon the earth to displace the temporal reality for all men at the same time. In the meantime we are invited to enter into the kingdom reality through faith."

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 01:20 AM
That's actually what I thought about your post. Even look at what you said here....

It's so temporal and nearsighted. It says nothing about the glorious future and things God has in store for us that the Spirit has already revealed. You say we seek as if knowing, as if we don't. That we are preparing for history to be swallowed up, but scripture does not indicate history is swallowed up when Christ returns. He must put down all rule and authority, rule with a rod of iron, us with Him first. Then you contradict yourself and say we have found.

You fail to see that a man that has Christ ruling in Him IS the manifestation of the kingdom here are now. The kingdom is not come into the present reality except through the spiritual ones who have found and been found. When we walk in that supernatural reality, miracles happen.

You would rather wait in a carnal state for a physical kingdom to be set up.....

But in order to be worthy of that kingdom, we need to have it be established within us. This is where we are right now.

Now is the time of salvation. Enter into that land today.

Neanias
Feb 7th 2011, 01:21 AM
Why do people say it came a Pentecost? :hmm:

It came into the reality and lives of 120 disciples... But it already existed before. See there's always two things going on. The kingdom does exist already, it is reality. Yes. But it is not our reality yet. But it can become our reality through Jesus Christ. He is both God and man, and so he bridges between both realities.

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 01:23 AM
What I speak of is INCLUSION theology as opposed to sectarian theology.Errm....what is INCLUSION theology? If you mean Jew and Gentile in one new man -Christ, fine, I believe that two. Who doesn't? You didn't answer the questions either

Do you deny "To Israel the coming of Messiah to restore the kingdom to Israel is a good message or tidings"?
Do you think Israel should not be looking for Messiah?
Why would this necessitate various gospels?
How does this make the everlasting gospel mortal?
What is the aspirations of man you refer to?

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 01:27 AM
Is this other one then not enough?No they are not. Men did mighty things through the Spirit in the OT too.


It still shows that the kingdom is indeed in power and not in talk.Men did mighty things through the Spirit in the OT too.


As episkopos said, "The kingdom that is of Christ and in Christ will come upon the earth to displace the temporal reality for all men at the same time. In the meantime we are invited to enter into the kingdom reality through faith."There's no scripture for this.

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 01:27 AM
But Jesus told the Pharisees "the kingdom of God is within you."

You are arguing my point. You are actually just wiggling and flashing to no purpose.

The kingdom of God is now. You have said it is not. But the kingdom is not established over all the earth yet. It is in we who have entered into Christ who is our country

Jesus said that the kingdom of God is in your midst. Meaning that He was there and they didn't perceive it.

You are making the mistake of thinking that the kingdom comes with observation. The very thing Jesus said would not take place.

Men as they are are unfit to observe the kingdom cominmg. We must first be conformed to Christ by dwelling IN Him and He in us.

If you don't yet understand this, or have yet to SEE the kingdom in the Spirit, then humble yourself. Pride goes before a fall. God gives grace to the humble.

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 01:31 AM
Errm....what is INCLUSION theology? If you mean Jew and Gentile in one new man -Christ, fine, I believe that two. Who doesn't? You didn't answer the questions either

Do you deny "To Israel the coming of Messiah to restore the kingdom to Israel is a good message or tidings"?
Do you think Israel should not be looking for Messiah?
Why would this necessitate various gospels?
How does this make the everlasting gospel mortal?
What is the aspirations of man you refer to?

You are talking of Israel according to the flesh. A remnant have and will be redeemed, but overall the return of Messiah will NOT be good news for them.

He will come as a thief in the night.

The same goes for the lukewarm among the believers in Jesus.

Now is the time where the kingdom must be established...IN US!!!!!

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 01:34 AM
You fail to see that a man that has Christ ruling in Him IS the manifestation of the kingdom here are now. The kingdom is not come into the present reality except through the spiritual ones who have found and been found. When we walk in that supernatural reality, miracles happen.Who might you give as an example of Christ ruling in him, and what scripture do you have for the concept? If miracles is how we know, how pitiful your concept is.


You would rather wait in a carnal state for a physical kingdom to be set up.....Quite the opposite. I am looking forward to my bodily resurrection though, aren't you? ;)


But in order to be worthy of that kingdom, we need to have it be established within us. This is where we are right now.Never worthy my friend. Never will be worthy.


Now is the time of salvation. Enter into that land today.Today is the day, not now is the time ;)
It is not a land. If it were we could see it but we can't. Jesus said we can't.

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 01:35 AM
You are talking of Israel according to the flesh. A remnant have and will be redeemed, but overall the return of Messiah will NOT be good news for them.

He will come as a thief in the night.

The same goes for the lukewarm among the believers in Jesus.

Now is the time where the kingdom must be established...IN US!!!!!So you don't want to answer the questions?

Do you deny "To Israel the coming of Messiah to restore the kingdom to Israel is a good message or tidings"?
Do you think Israel should not be looking for Messiah?
Why would this necessitate various gospels?
How does this make the everlasting gospel mortal?
What is the aspirations of man you refer to?

Neanias
Feb 7th 2011, 01:42 AM
No they are not. Men did mighty things through the Spirit in the OT too.

Men did mighty things through the Spirit in the OT too.

"No they are not" is your answer to my question as to whether these scriptures show that the kingdom of God is in power and not in talk. Ok, then tell me, is this one enough?

1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power

Or do you need something more direct? ;)

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 01:45 AM
The kingdom of God is now.You said it is not here.


You have said it is not.I said it is here. You are confused.


But the kingdom is not established over all the earth yet. It is in we who have entered into Christ who is our countryNot scriptural.


You are making the mistake of thinking that the kingdom comes with observation. The very thing Jesus said would not take place.I said that already.


Men as they are are unfit to observe the kingdom cominmg. We must first be conformed to Christ by dwelling IN Him and He in us.Some that were 'unfit' and not transformed into the image of Christ or having the Spirit in them saw the kingdom of God in power in the transfiguration so...?


If you don't yet understand this, or have yet to SEE the kingdom in the Spirit, then humble yourself. Pride goes before a fall. God gives grace to the humble.Oh I've seen and experienced it but not as Christ said in Mar 9:1. Have you?

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 01:47 AM
"No they are not" is your answer to my question as to whether these scriptures show that the kingdom of God is in power and not in talk. Ok, then tell me, is this one enough?

1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power

Or do you need something more direct? ;)Sure they all are but again they do not have any relation to Mark 9:1 as you first posted.

Neanias
Feb 7th 2011, 02:17 AM
Sure they all are but again they do not have any relation to Mark 9:1 as you first posted.

You're just trying to avoid the point.

Im fine with letting go of Mark 9:1.

The point is that the kingdom is in power and not in word. We must not just believe, but move into the reality of Christ, the kingdom, and be clothed with his life and power.

dagar
Feb 7th 2011, 03:29 AM
You're just trying to avoid the point.

Im fine with letting go of Mark 9:1.

The point is that the kingdom is in power and not in word. We must not just believe, but move into the reality of Christ, the kingdom, and be clothed with his life and power.I'm fine with that. I never avoided the point, and how could I have since I pointed it out earlier....the OT is full of men doing things in power -the kingdom of God. As you agree, the kingdom of God has always been here, so you didn't really establish your point did you? The difference is that now it is not just available to a few chosen to bring about the purpose of God which is in Christ, but to all to fulfill the purpose of God in Christ. I think that is your point, no?

Firstfruits
Feb 7th 2011, 09:57 AM
No I do not agree. To an Israelite looking for the Messiah, the gospel is the Messiah's arrival.

What is the gospel/message of Christ?

Firstfruits

David Taylor
Feb 7th 2011, 03:20 PM
I was discussing the gospel with a certain brother the other day, and he really floored me. He stated that there are actually three DIFFERENT gospels in the NT.

He stated that the gospel of the kingdom preached by Christ and the apostles is not for Gentiles but only for the Jews. That now there is a gospel of grace given exclusively by Paul. It is only he we must heed. And there will be another gospel to be preached before the end. He told to look for it in Revelations.

When I tried reasoning with him out of the OT he said we cannot use the OT because that was for the Jews too.

So we must ignore Christ's teachings, and the OT prophets. WOW! Where do people get this stuff?

Has anyone heard something similar? This guy is in a mainstream denom.

This is a viewpoint often called 'Pauline or Hyper/Ultra Dispensationalism'. It is far left of mainstream orthodoxy, and takes the dichotomy of Israel that is inherit within traditional dispensationalism, and maxes it out to the extreme ridiculous. It gets so silly, that it almost changes Jews from being one of many races within humanity, to being another different and totally unique species apart from the rest of humanity; because everything involving Jews must be split apart, handled separately, and divided off and segregated away from the rest of humanity.

Pauline Dispensationalists often also say things like, "The books of Matthew, Hebrews, James, and Revelation" are for the Jews only...and not written for Gentile Christians at all. Baloney like that. But those very books within themselves contain all of the core concepts and foundational teachings of Christianity....

Bad stuff....be patient with your friend, but stay villigent and don't give up. Keep impressing the unity of the OT and NT scriptures teaching the same important theme, and how Jesus came to unite Jew and Gentile together in Him, and not to bring more division.

Fenris
Feb 7th 2011, 03:31 PM
When I tried reasoning with him out of the OT he said we cannot use the OT because that was for the Jews too.

Well this part I actually agree with. :)

I realize I am in the minority here.

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 04:24 PM
Who might you give as an example of Christ ruling in him, and what scripture do you have for the concept? If miracles is how we know, how pitiful your concept is.

Quite the opposite. I am looking forward to my bodily resurrection though, aren't you? ;)

Never worthy my friend. Never will be worthy.

Today is the day, not now is the time ;)
It is not a land. If it were we could see it but we can't. Jesus said we can't.

Don't confuse the temporal with the eternal.

We are told that no eye has seen the Lord and yet Jesus counsels us that we buy eye salve that we may see. That is not a physical eye salve.

Being spiritually blind is not a good thing.

The Christian walk is in the miraculous. If it isn't miraculous it isn't Christian yet.

Christ ruling in a person? Try Paul. "It is no longer I who live but Christ living in me"

People miss the depth of a verse like that. We get conditioned to ignore the import of such a seemingly bizarre statement. The supernatural work of God is active in Paul's life.

Here are a few other verses that show Christ reigning in a true disciple...

We have already covered "The kingdom of God is within you" (why you ignore this verse is beyond me!)






That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, Eph. 3:17

so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom. 5:21

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


1 John 2:6 By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."



The bible speaks of power to walk a Christ-like walk. This is accomplished through the Lord living and reigning in our hearts. God does not rule us harshly...quite the opposite we are filled with a divine love from the divine life in us. IF we overcome the flesh through this abiding life, then we shall live with Him in eternity.


Oh, and to be sure that the time is NOW for the kingdom to be established within us...

(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.) 2 Cor. 6:2

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 04:30 PM
Well this part I actually agree with. :)

I realize I am in the minority here.

"All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Tim 3:16

The only scripture that existed at the time was the law and the prophets. In other words the OT.

Which scriptures did Jesus reason with with the disciples on the road to Emmaus?

The content of the NT is full of OT scriptures being cited! Should we ignore these as well?

Firstfruits
Feb 7th 2011, 04:32 PM
Well this part I actually agree with. :)

I realize I am in the minority here.

Why does the NT not bring the OT to the light that it is, concerning the light of the gospel?

Firstfruits

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 04:32 PM
This is a viewpoint often called 'Pauline or Hyper/Ultra Dispensationalism'. It is far left of mainstream orthodoxy, and takes the dichotomy of Israel that is inherit within traditional dispensationalism, and maxes it out to the extreme ridiculous. It gets so silly, that it almost changes Jews from being one of many races within humanity, to being another different and totally unique species apart from the rest of humanity; because everything involving Jews must be split apart, handled separately, and divided off and segregated away from the rest of humanity.

Pauline Dispensationalists often also say things like, "The books of Matthew, Hebrews, James, and Revelation" are for the Jews only...and not written for Gentile Christians at all. Baloney like that. But those very books within themselves contain all of the core concepts and foundational teachings of Christianity....

Bad stuff....be patient with your friend, but stay villigent and don't give up. Keep impressing the unity of the OT and NT scriptures teaching the same important theme, and how Jesus came to unite Jew and Gentile together in Him, and not to bring more division.

Ahhh! Thanks for this post! :)

Firefighter
Feb 7th 2011, 04:39 PM
This story seems to be relevant to this thread for some weird reason...


There are four blind men who discover an elephant. Since the men have never encountered an elephant, they grope about, seeking to understand and describe this new phenomenon. One grasps the trunk and concludes it is a snake. Another explores one of the elephant's legs and describes it as a tree. A third finds the elephant's tail and announces that it is a rope. And the fourth blind man, after discovering the elephant's side, concludes that it is, after all, a wall.

Each in his blindness is describing the same thing: an elephant. Yet each describes the same thing in a radically different way.

Fenris
Feb 7th 2011, 04:47 PM
"All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Tim 3:16

The only scripture that existed at the time was the law and the prophets. In other words the OT.

Which scriptures did Jesus reason with with the disciples on the road to Emmaus?

The content of the NT is full of OT scriptures being cited! Should we ignore these as well?
Uhhh you do know I am not a Christian, right?

Fenris
Feb 7th 2011, 04:48 PM
Why does the NT not bring the OT to the light that it is, concerning the light of the gospel?

I don't believe that it does obviously :)

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 04:56 PM
Uhhh you do know I am not a Christian, right?

I'm sorry... I wasn't sure! I noticed the "ish yehudi" on your signature thingy. But then I know quite a number of Messianic Jews. :)

But we can agree with Paul that the law and the prophets... The tanach.... (with the ketuvim of course) furnish us with the necessities for instruction in righteousness!!! Can we not?

Fenris
Feb 7th 2011, 05:30 PM
I'm sorry... I wasn't sure! I noticed the "ish yehudi" on your signature thingy. But then I know quite a number of Messianic Jews. :)
Reps for reading the Hebrew :)



But we can agree with Paul that the law and the prophets... The tanach.... (with the ketuvim of course) furnish us with the necessities for instruction in righteousness!!! Can we not?For Jews...yes. Judaism was never meant to be a religion for the masses, and it's long list of rules applies only to Jews.

Neanias
Feb 7th 2011, 06:19 PM
If it's just for Jews though, why does it say...

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him [Israel, Jacob], I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation (goy) and a company of nations (qahal goyim) shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Correct me if I am wrong, but qahal goyim could also be translated a 'congregation of gentiles'.

Fenris
Feb 7th 2011, 06:29 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but qahal goyim could also be translated a 'congregation of gentiles'.

You are wrong.

The hebrew word "Goy" simply means "nation". For example, in Exodus 19 God tells the Jews assembled at Sinai that if they hearken they shall be a "Goy Kadosh", a "holy nation". Not a "holy gentile", whish makes no sense.

Now it is true that over time the word came into use in the context you infer. Someone who was not Jewish might be referred to as a "Goy", that is, a member of (another) nation. But to retroactively apply it to the bible is an anachronism.

Plus, it doesn't make sense in your verse particularly. God is promising Jacob many descendants; He says to Jacob, "Be fruitful and multiply. A company of nations shall come from within you". Jacob's descendants are Jews. How would his desendants be a company of gentiles?

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 06:36 PM
[QUOTE]Reps for reading the Hebrew :)

Toda raba ish ivri!


For Jews...yes. Judaism was never meant to be a religion for the masses, and it's long list of rules applies only to Jews.

We believe it's to the Jews FIRST and then we of the nations! :)

Fenris
Feb 7th 2011, 06:41 PM
Toda raba ish ivri!
Bivakasha.



We believe it's to the Jews FIRST and then we of the nations!
I know.

episkopos
Feb 7th 2011, 06:43 PM
You are wrong.

The hebrew word "Goy" simply means "nation". For example, in Exodus 19 God tells the Jews assembled at Sinai that if they hearken they shall be a "Goy Kadosh", a "holy nation". Not a "holy gentile", whish makes no sense.

Now it is true that over time the word came into use in the context you infer. Someone who was not Jewish might be referred to as a "Goy", that is, a member of (another) nation. But to retroactively apply it to the bible is an anachronism.

Plus, it doesn't make sense in your verse particularly. God is promising Jacob many descendants; He says to Jacob, "Be fruitful and multiply. A company of nations shall come from within you". Jacob's descendants are Jews. How would his desendants be a company of gentiles?

As you know kehal can also mean congregation...even church. Goyim means nations...yes. But Christians also read the NT and read where Paul says "fulness of the Gentiles" that way since the translators chose the word Gentiles rather than nations. (Rom. 11:25)

That reference is to Genesis 48 where it is written about Ephraim where he would be "melo hagoyim" The fulness of the nations" or Gentiles.

There are many verses that describe the re-uniting of both houses of Israel. Where Ephraim AND Judah are as one stick in His hand. (Ez. 37)

We ARE the sheep of that other flock. By a new birth in Meshiach! Baruch Hashem!!!

Fenris
Feb 7th 2011, 06:57 PM
As you know kehal can also mean congregation...even church. Goyim means nations...yes. But Christians also read the NT and read where Paul says "fulness of the Gentiles" that way since the translators chose the word Gentiles rather than nations. (Rom. 11:25)Regardless, I am not sure that the word had that meaning in the first century.


That reference is to Genesis 48 where it is written about Ephraim where he would be "melo hagoyim" The fulness of the nations" or Gentiles.
Again, I find this reference confusing. Efraim's descendants are Jews; and anyway, Efraim was long gone in the first century.


There are many verses that describe the re-uniting of both houses of Israel. Where Ephraim AND Judah are as one stick in His hand. (Ez. 37)
Err, right. But Efraim is still lost to us.

BroRog
Feb 7th 2011, 10:29 PM
Well this part I actually agree with. :)

I realize I am in the minority here.Do you think Israel would consider it "good news" if God began to send prophets, announce that he forgave Israel, intended to reestablish a covenant commitment with Israel, bless them materially, and supernaturally protect them from attacks from the surrounding nations?

dagar
Feb 8th 2011, 01:36 AM
What is the gospel/message of Christ?

FirstfruitsNot the question. The question is "More than one gospel???"

dagar
Feb 8th 2011, 02:19 AM
Don't confuse the temporal with the eternal.Why do you think I am? I've made the distinction in my post.



We are told that no eye has seen the LordWhat? If you've seen me you've seen the Father? Read your Bible!



and yet Jesus counsels us that we buy eye salve that we may see. That is not a physical eye salve.He counsels those in the church of Laodicea that need to repent, because they have no works of faith and righteousness, to buy eye salve so they can see or get spued out of His mouth. While I agree that fits the Church age we are in I wonder why you apply this to us all.



The Christian walk is in the miraculous. If it isn't miraculous it isn't Christian yet.At least we agree on something.



Christ ruling in a person? Try Paul. "It is no longer I who live but Christ living in me"Today, not the first church.



People miss the depth of a verse like that. We get conditioned to ignore the import of such a seemingly bizarre statement. The supernatural work of God is active in Paul's life.People miss what Paul meant by that and how Christ lived through him. "The supernatural work of God is active" because of Paul's faith in the gospel (the cross, Christ crucified -dead buried raised -glory only in the cross), not because Paul was a robot. Paul believed he was a dead man. You can't kill a dead man. He is already dead. Paul believed that. Christians today do not. When they do, they are miraculous. Paul was not ruled. Paul reigned. You got it backwards.



We have already covered "The kingdom of God is within you" (why you ignore this verse is beyond me!)Funny. I first mentioned it. :hmm:



The bible speaks of power to walk a Christ-like walk. This is accomplished through the Lord living and reigning in our hearts. God does not rule us harshly...quite the opposite we are filled with a divine love from the divine life in us.This is not ruling and reigning. Grace reigning is not God arbitrarily reigning. If you are talking about grace reigning because of the believers faith in the gospel I agree.


Oh, and to be sure that the time is NOW for the kingdom to be established within us...

(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.) 2 Cor. 6:2This does not say the kingdom is established or established within us at salvation. How could it when Jesus already said it is already in you -to the pharisees. Kingdom is not even in the verse, surrounding verses, or the epistle. A kingdom simply requires a king, land, and subjects. Jesus said
The kingdom of God does not come with observation.
A few would see it in the transfiguration.
He would return in power and glory.
He would not eat or drink again until he does so with the disciples in the kingdom of God.
Men would then sit down and eat and drink in the kingdom of God with Abraham.

One cannot exhaustively study every instance of the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God and honestly conclude The Kingdom has come in fullness. Anyone that does is seriously blind and deceiving themselves.

Regarding salvation now and the Spirit, we have a down payment. Jesus is the only one that received the Spirit without measure above all His fellows. We see in part for now. That's how it is. That being true there is no way the kingdom is established in full.

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2011, 09:26 AM
I don't believe that it does obviously :)

If the gospel that began from the begining is brought to light concerning the promises of God in the NT, if we do not believe them to be true, does that also mean those that believe according to what is written in the gospel should not be believed?

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Firstfruits

heir
Feb 8th 2011, 12:53 PM
I was discussing the gospel with a certain brother the other day, and he really floored me. He stated that there are actually three DIFFERENT gospels in the NT.

He stated that the gospel of the kingdom preached by Christ and the apostles is not for Gentiles but only for the Jews. That now there is a gospel of grace given exclusively by Paul. It is only he we must heed. And there will be another gospel to be preached before the end. He told to look for it in Revelations.

When I tried reasoning with him out of the OT he said we cannot use the OT because that was for the Jews too.

So we must ignore Christ's teachings, and the OT prophets. WOW! Where do people get this stuff?

Has anyone heard something similar? This guy is in a mainstream denom.
Hi there,

Maybe in order to find answers you should go to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to find out what they preached or didn't preach.

Who were the apostles instructed to preach to or not to in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
Did the apostles (in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) preach that Jesus Christ would suffer, die and be raised again?
Did they even know He would?
Is this what they were preaching for three years?
And what is the gospel of YOUR salvation?

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 12:55 PM
Do you think Israel would consider it "good news" if God began to send prophets, announce that he forgave Israel, intended to reestablish a covenant commitment with Israel, bless them materially, and supernaturally protect them from attacks from the surrounding nations?

I don't see any of that as necessary. God does forgive Israel, there is no need to reestablish a covenant committment since one is already in place, He has blessed Israel materially, and He has protected Israel from the surrounding nations. It seems completely obvious to me.

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 12:56 PM
If the gospel that began form the begining is brought to light concerning the promises of God in the NT, if we do not believe them to be true, does that also mean those that believe according to what is written in the gospel should not be believed?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here.

rejoice44
Feb 8th 2011, 01:23 PM
I don't see any of that as necessary. God does forgive Israel, there is no need to reestablish a covenant committment since one is already in place, He has blessed Israel materially, and He has protected Israel from the surrounding nations. It seems completely obvious to me.

Yes God is protecting Israel, but there will be a time of repentance.

Zechariah 12:9-10 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 01:32 PM
Yes God is protecting Israel, but there will be a time of repentance.

I agree. Although that translation of Zechariah is terrible. And it doesn't even make sense as you are posting it.

and they (the Jews) shall look upon me (Jesus) whom they (the Romans) have pierced, and they (the Jews) shall mourn for him (Jesus), as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him (Jesus), as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Huh?

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2011, 02:04 PM
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here.

Is the gospel that was given to Abrahan the sams the gospel in the NT? if not should we believe those that believe the gospel of the NT?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 02:28 PM
Is the gospel that was given to Abrahan the sams the gospel in the NT? I don't understand. What gospel was given to Abraham?


if not should we believe those that believe the gospel of the NT?I don't know what this means either.

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2011, 02:53 PM
I don't understand. What gospel was given to Abraham?

I don't know what this means either.

Is the following what God promised Abraham?

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Firstfruits

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 03:11 PM
Is the following what God promised Abraham?

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

I find the following instances-


Genesis 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.

Genesis 22:18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

Genesis 26:4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,



I do not see how this predicts "that God would justify the heathen through faith"

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2011, 04:14 PM
I find the following instances-


Genesis 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.

Genesis 22:18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

Genesis 26:4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,



I do not see how this predicts "that God would justify the heathen through faith"

Just as Abrahams faith was counted for righteousness so are we.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Firstfruits

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 04:23 PM
Just as Abrahams faith was counted for righteousness so are we.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

First of all, this quote is taken out of context. Second of all, I fail to see how our faith counting as "righteousness" makes anyone "blessed through Abraham". Third of all, I still don't see how this predicts anyone will be justified through faith.

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2011, 04:35 PM
First of all, this quote is taken out of context. Second of all, I fail to see how our faith counting as "righteousness" makes anyone "blessed through Abraham". Third of all, I still don't see how this predicts anyone will be justified through faith.

Although you may not see it, that is what God promised Abraham, do you believe that?

These are the scriptures you gave, so do you believe them?

Genesis 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.

Genesis 22:18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

Genesis 26:4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,

All Abraham had was his faith concerning what God promised him, do you believe?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 04:51 PM
Although you may not see it, that is what God promised Abraham, do you believe that?

These are the scriptures you gave, so do you believe them?I believe that the world is blessed through Abraham's descendants. Just Google "Jewish Nobel prize winners".



All Abraham had was his faith concerning what God promised him, do you believe?


Yes, and it still doesn't address my issues raised above:


First of all, this quote is taken out of context. Second of all, I fail to see how our faith counting as "righteousness" makes anyone "blessed through Abraham". Third of all, I still don't see how this predicts anyone will be justified through faith.

episkopos
Feb 8th 2011, 05:33 PM
The gospel goes far beyond the call to righteousness. It is the power to walk as Christ did in the world. A walk that fulfills the law. A walk above the power of sin. An inner anointing. A taste of the power of the life to come. It is freedom from the bondage of slavery to sin and darkness. It is the gift of sight to perceive the kingdom of God...NOW!

Of course we must not be unrighteous. We must build properly. We must add virtue and humility to every advance we make in the Spirit. Otherwise we fall under the condemnation of the devil who was puffed up in his soiritual beauty.

Only when we mix the spiritual walk WITH humility are we Christ-like.

episkopos
Feb 8th 2011, 05:34 PM
I believe that the world is blessed through Abraham's descendants. Just Google "Jewish Nobel prize winners".




Yes, and it still doesn't address my issues raised above:

Remember that the gospel is not about what men can do, but what Christ can do IN men!

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 05:55 PM
Remember that the gospel is not about what men can do, but what Christ can do IN men!
That may or may not apply to the bible it quotes from however.

heir
Feb 8th 2011, 06:12 PM
The gospel goes far beyond the call to righteousness. It is the power to walk as Christ did in the world. A walk that fulfills the law. A walk above the power of sin. An inner anointing. A taste of the power of the life to come. It is freedom from the bondage of slavery to sin and darkness. It is the gift of sight to perceive the kingdom of God...NOW!

Of course we must not be unrighteous. We must build properly. We must add virtue and humility to every advance we make in the Spirit. Otherwise we fall under the condemnation of the devil who was puffed up in his soiritual beauty.

Only when we mix the spiritual walk WITH humility are we Christ-like.How does one get the righteousness of God. Is that not the requirement for heaven; 100% righteousness of God?

heir
Feb 8th 2011, 06:13 PM
Remember that the gospel is not about what men can do, but what Christ can do IN men! The gospel is not about what men do, but what the Lord Jesus Christ has done!

episkopos
Feb 8th 2011, 07:33 PM
The gospel is not about what men do, but what the Lord Jesus Christ has done!

We are able to do BECAUSE of what Jesus has both done and continues to do. He isn't obedient INSTEAD of us, but empowers us to be obedient.

So the gospel is not just...He did it all. No, He calls us to do as He has done, that we might partake in the rewards He has for those who love Him.

episkopos
Feb 8th 2011, 07:35 PM
The gospel is not about what men do, but what the Lord Jesus Christ has done!

That is only half the gospel.

The gateway is narow, but so is the path that leads to life. His life in us is as important as His death for us. He has not come to declare an amnesty against sinners, but the power to overcome them.

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2011, 07:52 PM
I believe that the world is blessed through Abraham's descendants. Just Google "Jewish Nobel prize winners".




Yes, and it still doesn't address my issues raised above:

Do you believe that nobel prize winners are what the prophets spoke of?

Is the Messiah to be a prize winner?

Firstfruits

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 08:11 PM
Do you believe that nobel prize winners are what the prophets spoke of?What prophets? We're talking about God's promise to Abraham that the world would be blessed through his descendants. I've just shown it to be literally true.


Is the Messiah to be a prize winner?Not relevant to this discussion, unless you insist that God's promise to Abraham was about the messiah.

WSGAC
Feb 8th 2011, 09:12 PM
What prophets? We're talking about God's promise to Abraham that the world would be blessed through his descendants. I've just shown it to be literally true.
Not relevant to this discussion, unless you insist that God's promise to Abraham was about the messiah.

God promised Abraham, "I will make of you into a great Gentile (goi) , and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. Genesis 12:2

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 09:17 PM
God promised Abraham, "I will make of you into a great Gentile (goi), and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. Genesis 12:2

That isn't what it says. And no one, I mean absolutely no one, translates it that way.

WSGAC
Feb 8th 2011, 09:20 PM
That isn't what it says. And no one, I mean absolutely no one, translates it that way.

Politics aside,

What is the Hebrew word for nation?
What is the Hebrew word for gentile?

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 09:23 PM
Politics aside,

What is the Hebrew word for nation?"Goy"


What is the Hebrew word for gentile?Biblical Hebrew has no such term. To use it in this context is an anachronism.

WSGAC
Feb 8th 2011, 09:26 PM
"Goy"
Biblical Hebrew has no such term. To use it in this context is an anachronism.

What is the Hebrew word translated as "nation" in Genesis 12 ?

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 09:30 PM
What is the Hebrew word translated as "nation" in Genesis 12 ?
"Goy", and it means nation. Again. The word "Goy" did not acquire the connotation of "gentile" until the Roman era. Biblical hebrew has no word for "gentile".

WSGAC
Feb 8th 2011, 09:37 PM
"Goy", and it means nation. Again. The word "Goy" did not acquire the connotation of "gentile" until the Roman era. Biblical hebrew has no word for "gentile".

Well what is a gentile?

Diggindeeper
Feb 8th 2011, 09:44 PM
According to my KJV, the Gentiles are the descendants of Japeth, one of the sons of Noah...........

Genesis 10:1-5
1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.

4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.

5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 09:44 PM
Well what is a gentile?
"Gentile" is a Latin term. There is no corresponding word in biblical Hebrew.

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 09:45 PM
According to my KJV, the Gentiles are the descendants of Japeth, one of the sons of Noah...........


The word in Hebrew is "Goyim", best translated as "nations".

WSGAC
Feb 8th 2011, 10:02 PM
The word in Hebrew is "Goyim", best translated as "nations".

But isn't a gentile understood to be one who is a member of the nations?...ie., one who is not a Jew, or of the house of Israel?

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 10:08 PM
But isn't a gentile understood to be one who is a member of the nations?
What a gentile is or isn't is not relevant. The word "Goy" in the bible means "nation". You cannot provide any instances of it meaning anything else.

For example, at Sinai God tells the Jews if they hearken they shall be "A kingdom of priests and a holy nation". According to you it says "A kingdom of priests and a holy gentile", which makes no sense whatsoever.

WSGAC
Feb 8th 2011, 10:12 PM
What a gentile is or isn't is not relevant. The word "Goy" in the bible means "nation". You cannot provide any instances of it meaning anything else.

For example, at Sinai God tells the Jews if they hearken they shall be "A kingdom of priests and a holy nation". According to you it says "A kingdom of priests and a holy gentile", which makes no sense whatsoever.

Sure it does...if gentile and nation are synonymous. Justice and Righteousness are synonymous; why not gentile and nation?

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 10:14 PM
Sure it does...if gentile and nation are synonymous. Justice and Righteousness are synonymous; why not gentile and nation?

You know, you don't get to invent your own langauge just because it supports your point on an internet forum.

WSGAC
Feb 8th 2011, 10:16 PM
You know, you don't get to invent your own langauge just because it supports your point on an internet forum.

Well then tell me what a gentile is. This way I won't invent anything. I will work with your definition.

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 10:42 PM
Well then tell me what a gentile is. This way I won't invent anything. I will work with your definition.
No such word in biblical Hebrew.

WSGAC
Feb 8th 2011, 10:53 PM
But you're not answering my question. What is a gentile?

Fenris
Feb 8th 2011, 10:54 PM
But you're not answering my question. What is a gentile?
In this context? A non-Jew I suppose.

WSGAC
Feb 8th 2011, 11:05 PM
In this context? A non-Jew I suppose.

Ok, then two questions:

1) Are there instances in scripture where the word "goy" is used when referring to the nation Israel?
2) Are there instances in scripture where the word "goy" is used when referring to other nations outside Israel?

Neanias
Feb 9th 2011, 12:01 AM
What a gentile is or isn't is not relevant. The word "Goy" in the bible means "nation". You cannot provide any instances of it meaning anything else.

For example, at Sinai God tells the Jews if they hearken they shall be "A kingdom of priests and a holy nation". According to you it says "A kingdom of priests and a holy gentile", which makes no sense whatsoever.

I think there is a misunderstanding here.

We are not saying that "goy" in singular means gentile, we say it means nation (singular), as you do. Now put that same word in plural, and it becomes nations right? Still the same word. Only thing is, God wouldn't speak of the Jews as being nations, but nation. So yes, when goy is used in singular it means 'nation', and that isn't a gentile. But when it says 'nations', then it isn't Israel (who is ONE nation) and so it's talking about the gentiles. So goy doesn't directly mean Gentiles, only when God uses it in the plural, he is talking about gentiles. That is how I understand it. So no, God is not saying you 'holy gentile', he is saying 'holy nation' as you say. But when that word goy is plural (goyim), then he is saying nations (plural), being the gentiles.

Neanias
Feb 9th 2011, 12:03 AM
In other words, gentile and nation are NOT synonymous. But, if God is speaking, and he speaks of nations (plural), he is not speaking of Israel, but rather the rest of the world, which is gentile. As you defined it, a gentile is a non-Jew. :)

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 01:23 AM
David prophesied of the time where all peoples would look to the Lord. We are all His handiwork. We are made one in Christ. (melech hamashiach) Psalm 117

1 O praise the LORD, all ye nations: (Kol goyim) praise him, all ye people. (kol haoumim)

2For his merciful kindness is great toward us: and the truth of the LORD endureth for ever. Praise ye the LORD.

Yes, His kindness is great towards all who fear Him.

WSGAC
Feb 9th 2011, 02:10 AM
In other words, gentile and nation are NOT synonymous. But, if God is speaking, and he speaks of nations (plural), he is not speaking of Israel, but rather the rest of the world, which is gentile. As you defined it, a gentile is a non-Jew. :)


Ok, then two questions:

1) Are there instances in scripture where the word "goy" is used when referring to the nation Israel?
2) Are there instances in scripture where the word "goy" is used when referring to another nation outside Israel?

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 02:20 AM
Ok, then two questions:

1) Are there instances in scripture where the word "goy" is used when referring to the nation Israel?
2) Are there instances in scripture where the word "goy" is used when referring to another nation outside Israel?

Goy kadosh is used to mean Israel the "holy nation." Here it is used as singular.

Plural Goyim is "nations" and represents the rest of the world.

I don't believe the word goy is used in the OT to signify another nation in the singular. The name of the nation is used rather.

WSGAC
Feb 9th 2011, 03:09 AM
Goy kadosh is used to mean Israel the "holy nation." Here it is used as singular.

Plural Goyim is "nations" and represents the rest of the world.

I don't believe the word goy is used in the OT to signify another nation in the singular. The name of the nation is used rather.


Exodus 9:24 - "hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a *nation*.

Here both the name (Egypt) and the singular form of nation (goy) is used .

Jeremiah 25:12 - “But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his *nation*, the land of the Babylonians,for their guilt,” declares the LORD, “and will make it desolate forever.

Here both the name (Babylon) and the singular form of nation (goy) is used.

percho
Feb 9th 2011, 05:32 AM
As you know kehal can also mean congregation...even church. Goyim means nations...yes. But Christians also read the NT and read where Paul says "fulness of the Gentiles" that way since the translators chose the word Gentiles rather than nations. (Rom. 11:25)

That reference is to Genesis 48 where it is written about Ephraim where he would be "melo hagoyim" The fulness of the nations" or Gentiles.

There are many verses that describe the re-uniting of both houses of Israel. Where Ephraim AND Judah are as one stick in His hand. (Ez. 37)

We ARE the sheep of that other flock. By a new birth in Meshiach! Baruch Hashem!!!

In Hosea 1:6,7 how many fold of sheep would you say were spoken of? In Ezekiel 37:19 would you say this is describing two fold of sheep becoming one flock?

Firstfruits
Feb 9th 2011, 09:22 AM
What prophets? We're talking about God's promise to Abraham that the world would be blessed through his descendants. I've just shown it to be literally true.
Not relevant to this discussion, unless you insist that God's promise to Abraham was about the messiah.

That which is written in the law of Moses, Gods prophet.

Firstfruits

heir
Feb 9th 2011, 11:34 AM
Scripture is clear and in agreement with "Highlander" "There can be only one"

1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


FirstfruitsThe Galatians were saved by the gospel of Christ which Paul made mention above. Some had come in and told these Galatians that they must be circumcised which goes against them being called into the grace of Christ. They wanted to put these Galatians under the law-the yoke of bondage which was a perversion of the gospel of Christ

Galatians 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

This is why Paul said this:

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

heir
Feb 9th 2011, 12:02 PM
That is only half the gospel.

The gateway is narow, but so is the path that leads to life. His life in us is as important as His death for us. He has not come to declare an amnesty against sinners, but the power to overcome them.Do you believe that there is something I must "do" to be saved or are you saying that those who are already saved should walk in newness of life?

heir
Feb 9th 2011, 12:03 PM
We are able to do BECAUSE of what Jesus has both done and continues to do. He isn't obedient INSTEAD of us, but empowers us to be obedient.

So the gospel is not just...He did it all. No, He calls us to do as He has done, that we might partake in the rewards He has for those who love Him.Can you expound on what it is to "be obedient"?

Firstfruits
Feb 9th 2011, 12:54 PM
The Galatians were saved by the gospel of Christ which Paul made mention above. Some had come in and told these Galatians that they must be circumcised which goes against them being called into the grace of Christ. They wanted to put these Galatians under the law-the yoke of bondage which was a perversion of the gospel of Christ

Galatians 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

This is why Paul said this:

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Thank you Heir,

Agreed!

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 12:54 PM
1) Are there instances in scripture where the word "goy" is used when referring to the nation Israel?
2) Are there instances in scripture where the word "goy" is used when referring to other nations outside Israel?
Yes ans yes.

The word means "nation", and can refer to the nation of Israel or some other nation.

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 12:58 PM
I think there is a misunderstanding here.

We are not saying that "goy" in singular means gentile, we say it means nation (singular), as you do. Now put that same word in plural, and it becomes nations right? Still the same word. Only thing is, God wouldn't speak of the Jews as being nations, but nation.
Why not? Couldn't it be a peotic expression about how many Jews there will be?

WSGAC
Feb 9th 2011, 02:30 PM
Yes ans yes.

The word means "nation", and can refer to the nation of Israel or some other nation.


Ok!

Elsewhere, you correctly noted that the word "gentile" is not a Hebrew word, and isn't in Genesis. But the Latin gentilis caries the same meaing as the Hebrew word for 'nation', גוי (goy) or nations (goyim plural). It refers to non-Israelite peoples or *nations* in English translations of the Bible. A "goy" is a nation. In Latin it is "gentile." Same meanings, different language. In Greek the word is ἔθνη (éthnē). God said to Abraham, "I will make you a great ethne." Same meaning, different language.

God said to Abraham, "I will make you into a great goy, ethne, gentile, nation."

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 02:51 PM
Elsewhere, you correctly noted that the word "gentile" is not a Hebrew word, and isn't in Genesis. But the Latin gentilis caries the same meaing as the Hebrew word for 'nation', גוי (goy) or nations (goyim plural). It refers to non-Israelite peoples or *nations* in English translations of the Bible.
The differnce is, in the bible the word "goy" does not refer to non-Jewish nations. It refers to any nation, Jewish or not.

WSGAC
Feb 9th 2011, 03:27 PM
The differnce is, in the bible the word "goy" does not refer to non-Jewish nations. It refers to any nation, Jewish or not.

Well, as a non Jewish person, I'm curious what word or phrase you use when referring to non Jews? If not "gentile" then what?

Firefighter
Feb 9th 2011, 03:32 PM
The differnce is, in the bible the word "goy" does not refer to non-Jewish nations. It refers to any nation, Jewish or not.

Maybe you should just study some Hebrew Fenris, that way you will be able to understand us better... :rofl:

RabbiKnife
Feb 9th 2011, 03:34 PM
Sure it does...if gentile and nation are synonymous. Justice and Righteousness are synonymous; why not gentile and nation?

Justice and Righteousness are no where close to synonymous.

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 03:35 PM
Maybe you should just study some Hebrew Fenris, that way you will be able to understand us better... :rofl:

I'm going to stay here and learn even more, because there are more Hebrew experts here than in my synagogue...:pp

RabbiKnife
Feb 9th 2011, 03:37 PM
Well, as a non Jewish person, I'm curious what word or phrase you use when referring to non Jews? If not "gentile" then what?

Bacon consumers.

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 03:37 PM
Well, as a non Jewish person, I'm curious what word or phrase you use when referring to non Jews? If not "gentile" then what?
What word I use is different from what word the bible might use.

Although to be honest I prefer the term "gentile" to "goy" because there are those who percieve the word "goy" to be derogatory (it's not, but regardless, I try to be extra polite)

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 03:38 PM
Bacon consumers.

Mmmm bacon.

At work we have a kitchen and sometimes people fry bacon...the amazing odor wafts through the office...

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 03:39 PM
In Hosea 1:6,7 how many fold of sheep would you say were spoken of? In Ezekiel 37:19 would you say this is describing two fold of sheep becoming one flock?

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. John 10:16


37:21 Say to them, Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all;

37:23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

37:24 My servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them.

37:25 They shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers lived; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, forever: and David my servant shall be their prince for ever.

37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore.

37:27 My tent also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

37:28 The nations shall know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 03:51 PM
Do you believe that there is something I must "do" to be saved or are you saying that those who are already saved should walk in newness of life?


Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. John 6:29



Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Cor. 7:19

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 03:55 PM
Exodus 9:24 - "hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a *nation*.

Here both the name (Egypt) and the singular form of nation (goy) is used .

Jeremiah 25:12 - “But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his *nation*, the land of the Babylonians,for their guilt,” declares the LORD, “and will make it desolate forever.

Here both the name (Babylon) and the singular form of nation (goy) is used.

I stand corrected! But this only proves Fenris' point. The word translated Gentile simply means nation. It is the plural form that relates to the non-Jews. That would be "goyim".

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 03:57 PM
Bacon consumers.

Bona fide bacon eating Gentiles!!! ;)

RabbiKnife
Feb 9th 2011, 03:59 PM
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. John 6:29



Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Cor. 7:19

Context?????????

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 04:18 PM
Context?????????

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph. 2

BY grace FOR good works! :)

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 04:44 PM
The point being obscured here is that goyim means non-Jewish nations.

Now Israel is called BY GOD to be a nation AND a congregation of nations! (kehal goyim) Gen. 35:11

This is prophetic. We who have entered into Christ have joined in the commonwealth of Israel.

Eph. 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


Israel is not just a nation of the Jews but ALSO a congregation of non-Jews. This has been done in Christ. God has reconciled all men through His Son Jesus Christ.


John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

First the Jew and also the Gentile.

WSGAC
Feb 9th 2011, 04:45 PM
Justice and Righteousness are no where close to synonymous.

You sound certain of this.

You might want to check into this.

Hebrew word tsedeq. Translated as "justice" in the OT 102 times. Translated as "righteousness" in the OT 394 times. Same word
Greek word dikaios. Translated as "justice" in the NT 38 times. Translated as "righteousness" in the NT 135 times. Same word

What do these figures tell us? First, it implies very strongly that to both Hebrew and N.T. Greek thinking justice and righteousness are the same thing. Second, it implies that our conception of 'justice' and 'righteousness', by which we give them different meanings, is likely to be wrong.

Context is everything!

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 04:49 PM
The point being obscured here is that goyim means non-Jewish nations.It means "nations".


Now Israel is called BY GOD to be a nation AND a congregation of nations! (kehal goyim) Gen. 35:11
Um, no. The chapter is talking about God blessing Jacob. What the verse actually says is "I am the Almighty God; be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a multitude of nations shall come from you..." which is talking about Jacob's physical desendants.

Everyone wants to be the Jews. But no one wants to be Jewish. Heh.

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 04:51 PM
You sound certain of this.

You might want to check into this.

Hebrew word tsedeq. Translated as "justice" in the OT 102 times. Translated as "righteousness" in the OT 394 times. Same word
Which is, you know, why you shouldn't trust translations. :lol:

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 04:58 PM
It means "nations".

Um, no. The chapter is talking about God blessing Jacob. What the verse actually says is "I am the Almighty God; be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a multitude of nations shall come from you..." which is talking about Jacob's physical desendants.

Everyone wants to be the Jews. But no one wants to be Jewish. Heh.

Actually we are not called to be Jewish by Israelites. Remember that there was also an erev rav ( a mixed racial multitude) that went out of Egypt with the children of Israel.

And since when are there multiple Jewish states?

The reuniting of Israel through Christ is the coming together of the Jews (Judah) with Ephraim on the day of Jezreel. We who were once lo-ami (not His people) are now redeemed as ami (His people)

WSGAC
Feb 9th 2011, 05:00 PM
Which is, you know, why you shouldn't trust translations. :lol:

כן, אבל אנחנו חייבים לנסות להבין מילה על ידי איך זה משומש, אפילו אם אנחנו לא יכולים להבין עברית.

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 05:01 PM
Actually we are not called to be Jewish by Israelites. Remember that there was also an erev rav ( a mixed racial multitude) that went out of Egypt with the children of Israel. yes, and Judaism accepts converts. Ruth for example. Not sure what this has to do with your point though.


And since when are there multiple Jewish states? It's a blessing for numerous descendants. Look at the verse- "be fruitful and multiply".


The reuniting of Israel through Christ is the coming together of the Jews (Judah) with Ephraim on the day of Jezreel. We who were once lo-ami (not His people) are now redeemed as ami (His people)
Right, I understand that this is a Christian belief.

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 05:05 PM
כן, אבל אנחנו חייבים לנסות להבין מילה על ידי איך זה משומש, אפילו אם אנחנו לא יכולים להבין עברית.

כן Ken! ;) That's the idea!

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 05:07 PM
כן, אבל אנחנו חייבים לנסות להבין מילה על ידי איך זה משומש, אפילו אם אנחנו לא יכולים להבין עברית.
אה, כמובן. אבל אמון תרגום אינה הדרך ללכת על עושה את זה.

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 06:33 PM
yes, and Judaism accepts converts. Ruth for example. Not sure what this has to do with your point though.

Being converted unto God is far superior! We in Christ HAVE BEEN converted through the circumcision made without hands, by the working of God Himself. This is the circumcision of the heart and the new covenant between the Creator and His creation. This is a far greater conversion.

Which is better? Circumcision in the flesh or the circumcision from within by the hand of God?


It's a blessing for numerous descendants. Look at the verse- "be fruitful and multiply".

Just as Abraham is the father of the righteous, so Jacob is the father of they who prevail with God! So his offspring is far greater than a physical progeny. Fruitful indeed! Israel must bear fruit. We have been given grace to that very end!


Right, I understand that this is a Christian belief.

It is an experience more than a belief. We who have entered into the divine fellowship know of what we speak. It is only a mystery to they who who have not seen the eternal things.

heir
Feb 9th 2011, 06:42 PM
Bacon consumers.surely, you jest...:)

1 Timothy 4:3-4 KJV Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 06:54 PM
אה, כמובן. אבל אמון תרגום אינה הדרך ללכת על עושה את זה.

Translation!??? I understand! But putting faith in a targum does not make one able to walk in the way! ?

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 06:54 PM
It is an experience more than a belief.
And you think that only Christians have religious experiences?

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 06:58 PM
Translation!??? I understand! But putting faith in a targum does not make one able to walk in the way! ?
Believeing the translation is not the way to do it.

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 06:59 PM
And you think that only Christians have religious experiences?

Only this experiance of being born from above and seeing the kingdom in a daily way. We are not talking of an unexplained mystical experience or a one time event but the power to see.

At it's depth the Christian experience is a walk in the light. Where we see through the light as it were. It is an anointing with power. Messiah is ALIVE in us. We see where He lives in the light! This is love!

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 07:01 PM
Believeing the translation is not the way to do it.

Nice!!! I agree that the torah (the whole tanach) cannot be truly translated with any degree of accuracy. The davar is deep waters indeed!

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 07:03 PM
Nice!!! I agree that the torah (the whole tanach) cannot be truly translated with any degree of accuracy.
Indeed...............

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 07:07 PM
Indeed...............

...that is without the help of the rouach hakodesh. He DID inspire it after all! ;)

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 07:17 PM
...that is without the help of the rouach hakodesh.
Uh...I don't think you will find a religious Jew who believes that "divine guidance" is necessary to understand the bible.

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 07:43 PM
Uh...I don't think you will find a religious Jew who believes that "divine guidance" is necessary to understand the bible.

Agreed! There is a level of the davar that can be done in human strength.

BUT, there is a sod level that can only be spiritually discerned.

For example at the akeidat yitshak when Abraham says (in Gen.22) that God Himself will see to the sacrifice. A ram was caught in a thicket (basvach)

Jesus said on the cross "Eli Eli lama sabachthani" or "my God my God why have you entangled ME"

So Jesus was crowned with thorns LIKE the ram caught in the sevach.

As you know...sevach is a noun that means thicket or bramble. Sabach is the verb meaning "to entangle".

This is how we know that God is moving. Anyone could have cited the Psalm (22) saying " Eli Eli lama azavthani" or... "My God My God, why have you forsaken Me"

But our Lord completed two prophecies at once!!!! \


He IS that sacrifice of an only Son! The Son of the Living God....the ben El Hai! בן אל חי

Also, is it mere coincidence that both prophecies are from a chapter 22? As you know 22 is the number of letters in the Hebrew aleph-bet. Jesus is the TAV! He is also the beginning AND the end.

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 07:53 PM
Wow, this post is all over the place.


Agreed! There is a level of the davar that can be done in human strength.

BUT, there is a sod level that can only be spiritually discerned.Not according to Jews, no.


For example when Abraham says (in Gen.22) that God Himself will see to the sacrifice. A ram was caught in a thicket (basvach)

Jesus said on the cross "Eli Eli lama sabachthani" or "my God my God why have you entangled ME"I thought this was "Why have you abandoned me"? Anyway "Sabachtani" is not a word in Hebrew or Aramaic. It's probably the way a Greek-speaker would pronounce "Azavtani" though. (The NT was written in Greek after all....)


This is how we know that God is moving. Anyone could have cited the Psalm (22) saying " Eli Eli lama azavthani" or... "My God My God, why have you forsaken Me"

But our Lord completed two prophecies at once!!!! You know... just shaking my head here.


Also, is it mere coincidence that both prophecies are from a chapter 22? As you know 22 is the number of letters in the Hebrew aleph-bet. Jesus is the TAV! He is also the beginning AND the end.

That's another Greek expression, not a Hebrew one.

percho
Feb 9th 2011, 07:56 PM
Actually we are not called to be Jewish by Israelites. Remember that there was also an erev rav ( a mixed racial multitude) that went out of Egypt with the children of Israel.

And since when are there multiple Jewish states?

The reuniting of Israel through Christ is the coming together of the Jews (Judah) with Ephraim on the day of Jezreel. We who were once lo-ami (not His people) are now redeemed as ami (His people)

A. Ephraim=lo-ami=Gentile=lost sheep of the house of Israel=other sheep not of this fold?
B. A + He came unto his own and his own received him not but to as many/this fold = one flock (should be one flock in John 10:16) + one shepherd from John & Ezekiel = Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

By the way only one gospel preached by all the gospel of the kingdom of God.

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 08:01 PM
Not according to Jews, no.Perhaps you are not acquainted with the four levels of interpretation used by the rabbis. The deepest of which is the mystery level (sod).


I thought this was "Why have you abandoned me"? Anyway "Sabachtani" is not a word in Hebrew or Aramaic. It's probably the way a Greek-speaker would pronounce "Azavtani" though. (The NT was written in Greek after all....)It IS Hebrew! Check your Hebrew dictionary for the verb sabach. I am only restating what a rabbi discovered before coming to Christ.

You know... just shaking my head here.


That's another Greek expression, not a Hebrew one.

All Hebrew! The tav is the 22nd letter of the HEBREW aleph-bet. It is a sign!

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 08:27 PM
Perhaps you are not acquainted with the four levels of interpretation used by the rabbis. The deepest of which is the mystery level (sod).
I am well-acquainted with it. No level requires divine inspiration to attain.



It IS Hebrew! Check your Hebrew dictionary for the verb sabach. So Jesus is not quoting Psalm 22?

It's amazing that everyone here has new discoveries about Christianity all the time.



All Hebrew! The tav is the 22nd letter of the HEBREW aleph-bet. It is a sign!
It's a sign of something, all right...

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 08:39 PM
I am well-acquainted with it. No level requires divine inspiration to attain.

So Jesus is not quoting Psalm 22?

It's amazing that everyone here has new discoveries about Christianity all the time.

It's a sign of something, all right...

Jesus is quoting BOTH from Gen.22 AND from Psalm 22 simultaneously. We grow into the truth! The learning is endless!

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 08:43 PM
Jesus is quoting BOTH from Gen.22 AND from Psalm 22 simultaneously. We grow into the truth! The learning is endless!
It's a miracle! :pp

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 08:47 PM
סבך to intertwine, interweave, entangle ( sabach verb)


סבך thicket, entanglement (sevach noun)

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 08:48 PM
It's a miracle! :pp

Even though you don't mean it...IT really IS!!! :)

Fenris
Feb 9th 2011, 10:02 PM
Even though you don't mean it...IT really IS!!! :)

I tend to set the bar a little higher for my miracles.

episkopos
Feb 9th 2011, 11:07 PM
I tend to set the bar a little higher for my miracles.

Higher than the orchestration of the redemption of mankind?

Diggindeeper
Feb 10th 2011, 01:35 AM
It's amazing that everyone here has new discoveries about Christianity all the time.

It's a sign of something, all right...

Not EVERYONE, friend! Many, yes. But not everyone. I don't go for all these new revelations. I have actually seen 'DOCTRINAL' changes, due to say...one lone ranger who writes a book with his NEW revelation and soon LOTS of people have taken that one NEW thing and run with it.

...and it spreads faster than the plague!

episkopos
Feb 10th 2011, 02:44 AM
Not EVERYONE, friend! Many, yes. But not everyone. I don't go for all these new revelations. I have actually seen 'DOCTRINAL' changes, due to say...one lone ranger who writes a book with his NEW revelation and soon LOTS of people have taken that one NEW thing and run with it.

...and it spreads faster than the plague!

What would Martin Luther say to that? ;) If we don't learn and move forward we remain as we are. If think rather we have lost the apostolic truth on many issues. We have certaily lost the power and the life that oce turned the world on it's ear.

Truly we need Revelation from the Lord. May He grant it.

What we should be careful of are lies. The truth sets us free!

dagar
Feb 10th 2011, 03:09 AM
What would Martin Luther say to that? ;) probably the following.....
If think rather we have lost the apostolic truth on many issues.Luther did not have a new revelation concerning 'faith alone'. That was an old one.


Truly we need Revelation from the Lord. May He grant it.

What we should be careful of are lies. The truth sets us free!So the church never had it right for 2000 years that you need revelation?

episkopos
Feb 10th 2011, 03:14 AM
probably the following.....Luther did not have a new revelation concerning 'faith alone'. That was an old one.

So the church never had it right for 2000 years that you need revelation?

I thought a revelation of Christ was necessary to become a Christian! Do we merely accept the doctrines of the Mother church for salvation? Do we assent to certain doctrines with our minds? Or do we need for God to reveal His truth to us in a living way?

Jesus said to Peter..."Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father which is in heaven." Have we arrived at a time in history where this is seen as a bad thing????

dagar
Feb 10th 2011, 03:27 AM
I thought a revelation of Christ was necessary to become a Christian!What makes you say that and what do you mean?


Do we merely accept the doctrines of the Mother church for salvation?No, just the gospel.


Do we assent to certain doctrines with our minds?in some cases yes, this happens.


Or do we need for God to reveal His truth to us in a living way?What does this mean?


Jesus said to Peter..."Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father which is in heaven."How does the text say the Father did that?


Have we arrived at a time in history where this is seen as a bad thing????Depends on how you mean it.

Fenris
Feb 10th 2011, 03:07 PM
Higher than the orchestration of the redemption of mankind?
Shrug. A miracle is usually something that is obvious to all. Splitting the Reed Sea for example. You'r "miracle" takes place in the "spritual realm" which is not visible at all.

Fenris
Feb 10th 2011, 03:08 PM
Not EVERYONE, friend! Many, yes. But not everyone. I don't go for all these new revelations. I have actually seen 'DOCTRINAL' changes, due to say...one lone ranger who writes a book with his NEW revelation and soon LOTS of people have taken that one NEW thing and run with it.

...and it spreads faster than the plague!Yeah I can imagine it's maddening to watch.

episkopos
Feb 10th 2011, 09:06 PM
Shrug. A miracle is usually something that is obvious to all. Splitting the Reed Sea for example. You'r "miracle" takes place in the "spritual realm" which is not visible at all.

Miracles are visible. They take place from the invisible realm. We are called to walk in the presence of God. Miracles happen all the time. But people don't see WHY things happen. Others around don't perceive it...but the one who sees...does!

Fenris
Feb 10th 2011, 09:11 PM
Miracles are visible.
Not the ones you are describing.

episkopos
Feb 10th 2011, 09:22 PM
Not the ones you are describing.

I have experienced many hundreds of very visible miracles. They follow the walk of faith.

Fenris
Feb 10th 2011, 09:27 PM
I have experienced many hundreds of very visible miracles.
And I haven't? Really now.

episkopos
Feb 10th 2011, 11:04 PM
And I haven't? Really now.

I was merely saying that I don't just experience invisible miracles.

Have you seen into the spiritual realm? Angels? Throne room of God? Have you experienced power from heaven? (I won't ask if you've seen the Lord Jesus)

Fenris
Feb 11th 2011, 11:01 AM
Have you seen into the spiritual realm? Angels? Throne room of God? Have you experienced power from heaven?
One's own personal, internal experiences are hardly a way to prove that their beliefs are correct.

episkopos
Feb 15th 2011, 11:09 PM
One's own personal, internal experiences are hardly a way to prove that their beliefs are correct.

Actually it is the absence of spiritual experience that makes one's beliefs suspect! ;)

JerryShugart
Nov 7th 2011, 06:29 PM
Of course there was more than one gospel preached after the Cross. The one that was preached to the Jews during the Acts period centered on the fact that it is Jesus who is the Christ, the Son of God. Believing that gospel saves anyone who will believe it today, as witnessed by the Apostle John's words here:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

The heart and soul of the other gospel concerns the purpose of the Cross, that Christ died for our sins, as witnessed by Paul's words here:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).

Both of these are "good news" or "gospel" but they are not the same "good news."

episkopos
Nov 7th 2011, 07:14 PM
Of course there was more than one gospel preached after the Cross. The one that was preached to the Jews during the Acts period centered on the fact that it is Jesus who is the Christ, the Son of God. Believing that gospel saves anyone who will believe it today, as witnessed by the Apostle John's words here:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

The heart and soul of the other gospel concerns the purpose of the Cross, that Christ died for our sins, as witnessed by Paul's words here:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).

Both of these are "good news" or "gospel" but they are not the same "good news."

Since Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God, there can only be ONE gospel. Jesus is come in the flesh.

David Taylor
Nov 7th 2011, 07:25 PM
Of course there was more than one gospel preached after the Cross. The one that was preached to the Jews during the Acts period centered on the fact that it is Jesus who is the Christ, the Son of God. Believing that gospel saves anyone who will believe it today, as witnessed by the Apostle John's words here:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

The heart and soul of the other gospel concerns the purpose of the Cross, that Christ died for our sins, as witnessed by Paul's words here:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).

Both of these are "good news" or "gospel" but they are not the same "good news."

I don't see two different gospels in these two example Jerry.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God who brings everlasting life and is the only way of forgiveness from our sins.

How is that two different Gospels, or two different good newses?

JerryShugart
Nov 7th 2011, 08:23 PM
Since Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God, there can only be ONE gospel. Jesus is come in the flesh.
episkopos, why did you just ignore the FACT that one "gospel" says nothing of the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

And why did you just ignore the fact that the other "gospel" says nothing of the fact that Christ died for our sins?

JerryShugart
Nov 7th 2011, 08:27 PM
I don't see two different gospels in these two example Jerry.
David, can you not see that the truths expressed in the two different gospels are not the same thing?

Do you really think that the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is the same truth that He died for our sins?

The Gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God who brings everlasting life and is the only way of forgiveness from our sins.

How is that two different Gospels, or two different good newses?
Both gospels speak of the Lord Jesus but yet the message concerning Him in each gospel is entirely different.

Isaiah2
Nov 7th 2011, 08:29 PM
I was discussing the gospel with a certain brother the other day, and he really floored me. He stated that there are actually three DIFFERENT gospels in the NT.

He stated that the gospel of the kingdom preached by Christ and the apostles is not for Gentiles but only for the Jews. That now there is a gospel of grace given exclusively by Paul. It is only he we must heed. And there will be another gospel to be preached before the end. He told to look for it in Revelations.

When I tried reasoning with him out of the OT he said we cannot use the OT because that was for the Jews too.

So we must ignore Christ's teachings, and the OT prophets. WOW! Where do people get this stuff?

Has anyone heard something similar? This guy is in a mainstream denom.

As I wrote in an earlier post on this subject… Christ has two gospels, one toward the Israelites (Luke 1-2, Mat 28:18-20 – the eleven sent to preach to the jews), AND one toward the Gentiles (Isaiah 11, Isaiah 45, Ephesians 3, Colossians 1, Acts 26:14-18 -- the apostle Paul sent to preach to the gentiles). The mystery of the Gentiles’ salvation and grafting-in was not revealed until the apostle Paul, the apostle and preacher to the Gentiles! The gospel towards the gentiles is that promise that was fulfilled because of the ensign that the LORD put upon Cain! (Genesis 4, a direct correlation to Isaiah 11 and Colossians 1)

Yes, we do need the OT! It would be impossible for gentiles to understand grace without learning and understanding the OT Rm15:4, 1 Cor 10:11, 1 Tim 2:7.

That brother that you spoke to seems to be confused when he mentions a “third gospel” before the end. This is false. He, like a lot of people, are ignorant as to the truth and timeline of the millenial reign. I’ll bet that’s where he gets the notion of yet another gosple to come.

Pray for wisdom!
James 1:5

episkopos
Nov 7th 2011, 09:58 PM
episkopos, why did you just ignore the FACT that one "gospel" says nothing of the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

And why did you just ignore the fact that the other "gospel" says nothing of the fact that Christ died for our sins?

The gospel is like a very big picture that can be seen from different angles. When one sees the whole picture, the different perspectives no longer seem incongruent.

episkopos
Nov 7th 2011, 10:02 PM
As I wrote in an earlier post on this subject… Christ has two gospels, one toward the Israelites (Luke 1-2, Mat 28:18-20 – the eleven sent to preach to the jews), AND one toward the Gentiles (Isaiah 11, Isaiah 45, Ephesians 3, Colossians 1, Acts 26:14-18 -- the apostle Paul sent to preach to the gentiles). The mystery of the Gentiles’ salvation and grafting-in was not revealed until the apostle Paul, the apostle and preacher to the Gentiles! The gospel towards the gentiles is that promise that was fulfilled because of the ensign that the LORD put upon Cain! (Genesis 4, a direct correlation to Isaiah 11 and Colossians 1)

Yes, we do need the OT! It would be impossible for gentiles to understand grace without learning and understanding the OT Rm15:4, 1 Cor 10:11, 1 Tim 2:7.

That brother that you spoke to seems to be confused when he mentions a “third gospel” before the end. This is false. He, like a lot of people, are ignorant as to the truth and timeline of the millenial reign. I’ll bet that’s where he gets the notion of yet another gosple to come.

Pray for wisdom!
James 1:5

It is rather one gospel bringing both Jews and Gentiles into ONENESS in Christ.

Fenris
Nov 7th 2011, 10:04 PM
Actually it is the absence of spiritual experience that makes one's beliefs suspect! ;)Shrug. I'm pretty sure people of every religion have spiritual experiences.

JerryShugart
Nov 7th 2011, 10:24 PM
The gospel is like a very big picture that can be seen from different angles. When one sees the whole picture, the different perspectives no longer seem incongruent.
You are able to stand reason on its head by asserting that the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is the same "good news" that He died for our sins.

When Paul went to preach the gospel to the Jews he "reasoned with them out of the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2) but you throw reason to the wind.

Isaiah2
Nov 7th 2011, 10:30 PM
Shrug. I'm pretty sure people of every religion have spiritual experiences.

Hey folks, let’s not go and mystify or hyper-spiritualize the reality of the cross! There are only two perspectives (jew and gentile.) The scriptures are very clear about that. Whether or not one believes once they come to the knowledge of the truth is the question. Those jews that delivered up Jesus did so because of their unbelief. Those gentiles that crucified Jesus did so because of their unbelief! Neither of these groups could hinder the faithful work of God to redeem His people, and to save those who did and do believe that HE IS by faith and belief of His Word!

episkopos
Nov 7th 2011, 10:34 PM
Shrug. I'm pretty sure people of every religion have spiritual experiences.

Of course. The spiritual world is very real. One can experience this world in God's presence or else the devil's.

episkopos
Nov 7th 2011, 10:36 PM
You are able to stand reason on its head by asserting that the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is the same "good news" that He died for our sins.

When Paul went to preach the gospel to the Jews he "reasoned with them out of the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2) but you throw reason to the wind.

Any story has a who, what, when, and why! Do the answers of each not belong to the same story?

Fenris
Nov 7th 2011, 10:46 PM
jew I hate to be "that guy", but the word "Jew" is capitalized.

Fenris
Nov 7th 2011, 10:47 PM
Of course. The spiritual world is very real. One can experience this world in God's presence or else the devil's.When a Christian has a spiritual experience, it's from God; when a non-Christian has a spiritual experience, it's from the devil? LOL!

JerryShugart
Nov 7th 2011, 10:57 PM
Any story has a who, what, when, and why! Do the answers of each not belong to the same story?
We are not speaking about a "story" but instead different messages. And according to your distorted views the message that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is the same message that He is the Christ, the Son of God.

As I said earlier, a person can be saved simply by believing the gospel message that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:



"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).


That is certainly not the same gospel message by which others were saved, as witnessed by Paul's words here:



"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).


Evidently you share the opinion of some men that there is only one gospel even though the Scriptures indicate otherwise. And you prove that you are willing to stand reason on its head so long as you can continue to believe what some men say about the Scriptures. It is impossible to reason with you out of the Scriptures because you place what some men say about them above what they actually say.

episkopos
Nov 7th 2011, 11:45 PM
When a Christian has a spiritual experience, it's from God; when a non-Christian has a spiritual experience, it's from the devil? LOL!

What about the Jews in the OT? What if a Greek had a "vision" in the BC times? Do you think that God "visited" the unbelievers in this way?

episkopos
Nov 7th 2011, 11:49 PM
We are not speaking about a "story" but instead different messages. And according to your distorted views the message that the Lord Jesus died for our sins is the same message that He is the Christ, the Son of God.

As I said earlier, a person can be saved simply by believing the gospel message that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:



"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).


That is certainly not the same gospel message by which others were saved, as witnessed by Paul's words here:



"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).


Evidently you share the opinion of some men that there is only one gospel even though the Scriptures indicate otherwise. And you prove that you are willing to stand reason on its head so long as you can continue to believe what some men say about the Scriptures. It is impossible to reason with you out of the Scriptures because you place what some men say about them above what they actually say.

Paul said that any man that preaches another gospel should be cursed.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal. 1:8

Who's we?

Neanias
Nov 7th 2011, 11:51 PM
"Someone died for your sins", and he answers 'Who?'... "Oh stop with your questions, it doesn't matter! All that matters is that someone died for your sins!"

'Jesus is God', and he answers 'Really? What must I do?'... "Just believe he's God!"... 'But who is he, how do I know him?' ... "Oh stop with your questions, as long as you know he's God!' :eek

Well that's one way to dismantle the power of the gospel and turn it into a few schemes (two 'gospels') by which one may magically be justified!

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 12:45 AM
Paul said that any man that preaches another gospel should be cursed.
That is not what Paul said. Please look at what I put in "bold":

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal. 1:8

He says "unto you." Paul was specifically speaking of the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles. Paul does not say that there is only one gospel. He knew that there were two gospels and he also knew that those preaching the other gospel would not be preaching that gospel to the Gentiles:


"...they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter...when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision" (Gal.2:7,9).


Those who had been given the responsibility to preach a gospel to the circumcision would not be preaching that message to those in the churches which Paul founded. So there is nothing written at Galatians 1:6-8 that proves that only one gospel was preached during the Acts period.

You continue denying the plain truth that two gospels were preached because you will not admit that the "good news" that Christ died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 12:52 AM
Well that's one way to dismantle the power of the gospel and turn it into a few schemes (two 'gospels') by which one may magically be justified!
According to your faulty logic the "good news" that Christ died for our sins is the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

Of course there are some who will deny what is so plain in the Scriptures because it does not match what they have been taught.

Neanias
Nov 8th 2011, 01:11 AM
If it isn't it loses all power... Here's how:

Christ died for us, and paid the price for us. The cross is the way to put away the old man. But you cannot separate the ressurection from this. Otherwise we die, but are not risen again in a new nature, in new power.

No man can be perfect, yet Christ was. Only God in a man can be perfect.

What you are saying is that some have to accept someone died in there stead, and receive (magically) this free pass, while others have to recognize him as kings. You are separating two things that are one to get rid of all overcoming and necessity of obedience (atleast for one of the 'two gospels')

Jerry, does the ressurection matter, or Christ just dying for sinners does the job to save them?

LookingUp
Nov 8th 2011, 01:59 AM
I was discussing the gospel with a certain brother the other day, and he really floored me. He stated that there are actually three DIFFERENT gospels in the NT.

He stated that the gospel of the kingdom preached by Christ and the apostles is not for Gentiles but only for the Jews. That now there is a gospel of grace given exclusively by Paul. It is only he we must heed. And there will be another gospel to be preached before the end. He told to look for it in Revelations.

When I tried reasoning with him out of the OT he said we cannot use the OT because that was for the Jews too.

So we must ignore Christ's teachings, and the OT prophets. WOW! Where do people get this stuff?

Has anyone heard something similar? This guy is in a mainstream denom.Yeah, it's common. Some believe the Church, body of Christ, began in early Acts, some believe mid-Acts, some believe it was late Acts. The idea is that the eternal life is through works of the Law for the good news of the physical kingdom (gospel 1) and eternal life is by grace through faith for the good news of the spiritual kingdom (gospel 2).

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 02:44 AM
What you are saying is that some have to accept someone died in there stead, and receive (magically) this free pass, while others have to recognize him as kings.
Those who received the Lord Jesus and believed on His name were "born of God" and as a result became children of God (Jn.1:12-13).

They were born of God when they believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (1 Jn.5:1-5).

Jerry, does the ressurection matter, or Christ just dying for sinners does the job to save them?
Of course it matters and that message is an integral part of the gospel that was preached to the Gentiles (1 Cor.15:4).

episkopos
Nov 8th 2011, 03:12 AM
That is not what Paul said. Please look at what I put in "bold":

He says "unto you." Paul was specifically speaking of the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles. Paul does not say that there is only one gospel. He knew that there were two gospels and he also knew that those preaching the other gospel would not be preaching that gospel to the Gentiles:


"...they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter...when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision" (Gal.2:7,9).


Those who had been given the responsibility to preach a gospel to the circumcision would not be preaching that message to those in the churches which Paul founded. So there is nothing written at Galatians 1:6-8 that proves that only one gospel was preached during the Acts period.

You continue denying the plain truth that two gospels were preached because you will not admit that the "good news" that Christ died for our sins is not the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

The message here goes out to 2 different peoples...not 2 different messages.

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 03:23 AM
The message here goes out to 2 different peoples...not 2 different messages.
Despite all the evidence you have been given you still trow reason to the wind and assert that the "good news" that Christ died for our sins is the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

It is not difficult to see exactly what gospel was preached to the Jews if you would just read the narrative as recorded in the book of Acts. After Paul was converted on the Damascus road he preached the following gospel in the synagogues:


"Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is very Christ" (Acts 9:19-20,22).


That is the gospel which Paul continued to preach to the Jews:


"Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts 17:1-3).


This is the same gospel which Apollos preached to the Jews:


"For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ" (Acts 18:28).


There is absolutely no evidence that Paul or anyone else preached a different gospel than this one to the Jews during the Acts period.

LookingUp
Nov 8th 2011, 03:30 AM
Despite all the evidence you have been given you still trow reason to the wind and assert that the "good news" that Christ died for our sins is the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

It is not difficult to see exactly what gospel was preached to the Jews if you would just read the narrative as recorded in the book of Acts. After Paul was converted on the Damascus road he preached the following gospel in the synagogues:


"Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is very Christ" (Acts 9:19-20,22).


That is the gospel which Paul continued to preach to the Jews:


"Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts 17:1-3).


This is the same gospel which Apollos preached to the Jews:


"For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ" (Acts 18:28).


There is absolutely no evidence that Paul or anyone else preached a different gospel than this one to the Jews during the Acts period.What is good about the preaching, "Jesus is Christ, the Son of God"? Why was that good news to the Jews?

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 04:19 AM
What is good about the preaching, "Jesus is Christ, the Son of God"? Why was that good news to the Jews?
The Jews knew that it would be their Messiah or Christ, the Son of the Highest, who would rule from David's throne in the earthly kingdom. Gabriel told Mary:



"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father, David. And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end" (Lk. 1:32,33).


Of course this would be "good news" to the Jews because they knew that the Lord Jesus would fulfill all of the prophecies that foretold of the earthly kingdom, including this one:



"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one…And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain" (Zech.14:9, 17).

LookingUp
Nov 8th 2011, 04:54 AM
The Jews knew that it would be their Messiah or Christ, the Son of the Highest, who would rule from David's throne in the earthly kingdom. Gabriel told Mary:



"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father, David. And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end" (Lk. 1:32,33).


Of course this would be "good news" to the Jews because they knew that the Lord Jesus would fulfill all of the prophecies that foretold of the earthly kingdom, including this one:



"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one…And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain" (Zech.14:9, 17).How is that good news to an individual Jew who would perish (i.e. the wages of sin is death)?

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 05:47 AM
How is that good news to an individual Jew who would perish (i.e. the wages of sin is death)?
The coming of the Messiah provided the knowledge of salvation by the remission of their sins:



"And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins" (Lk.176-77).


Here are the very words of the Christ, the Son of God, where He tells the Jews what they must do to attain everlasting life:



"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).


I have answered all of your questions so it is your time to answer one of mine.



Why do you think that the "good news" that Christ died for our sins is the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 12:46 PM
What about the Jews in the OT? What if a Greek had a "vision" in the BC times? Do you think that God "visited" the unbelievers in this way?I don't know. Bilaam was capable of prophecy, after all, and he was a nonbeliever.

Your point is totally circular logic:

"How do I know I'm right? I had a spiritual experience" and "How do I know my spiritual experience was from God? Because I'm right".

Anything that confirms your belief is accepted and anything that doesn't is rejected. Not rigorous logic.

LookingUp
Nov 8th 2011, 04:49 PM
The coming of the Messiah provided the knowledge of salvation by the remission of their sins:



"And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins" (Lk.176-77).


Here are the very words of the Christ, the Son of God, where He tells the Jews what they must do to attain everlasting life:



"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).


I have answered all of your questions so it is your time to answer one of mine.



Why do you think that the "good news" that Christ died for our sins is the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?Do both the Jew and Gentile receive eternal life through Christ because of his work on the cross? If "yes" then it's the same good news.

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 05:03 PM
Do both the Jew and Gentile receive eternal life through Christ because of his work on the cross? If "yes" then it's the same good news.
It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with someone who refuses to use common sense. And you continue to refuse to use your brain because you continue to insist that the "good news" that Christ died for our sins is the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Of course Peter was saved and born of God when he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (1 Jn.5:1-5; Mt.16:15-17). However, at that time Peter did not even realize that the Lord Jesus must die or that He would be resurrected from the dead (Lk.18:31-33).

So it is inconceivable that Peter was saved by the gospel which declares that the Lord Jesus diedfor our sins and was raised from the dead:



"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).


How could Peter have possibly been saved by that gospel since he did not even realize that the Lord Jesus Christ must die?

episkopos
Nov 8th 2011, 06:13 PM
I don't know. Bilaam was capable of prophecy, after all, and he was a nonbeliever.

Your point is totally circular logic:

"How do I know I'm right? I had a spiritual experience" and "How do I know my spiritual experience was from God? Because I'm right".

Anything that confirms your belief is accepted and anything that doesn't is rejected. Not rigorous logic.

David had faith when confronting Goliath because God had preserved him when fighting both lion and bear. David's experience prepared him to meet the next challenge. So it is with spiritual things. When we experience the things written in the bible for ourselves...our faith in the word grows....and our faith in God grows even more!

LookingUp
Nov 8th 2011, 06:15 PM
It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with someone who refuses to use common sense. And you continue to refuse to use your brain because you continue to insist that the "good news" that Christ died for our sins is the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Of course Peter was saved and born of God when he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (1 Jn.5:1-5; Mt.16:15-17). However, at that time Peter did not even realize that the Lord Jesus must die or that He would be resurrected from the dead (Lk.18:31-33).

So it is inconceivable that Peter was saved by the gospel which declares that the Lord Jesus diedfor our sins and was raised from the dead:



"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).


How could Peter have possibly been saved by that gospel since he did not even realize that the Lord Jesus Christ must die?Same with OT saints. It doesn't matter whether you know it was through the work of the cross you are saved. That is what saves. Both Jew and Gentile receive eternal life because of Christ's work on the cross.

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 06:19 PM
Both Jew and Gentile receive eternal life because of Christ's work on the cross.
No one denies that. However, I have never seen anyone like you who is able to delude his mind into believing that the "good news" that Christ died for our sins is the same "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Again, it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with anyone who will believe the most outlandish things.

keck553
Nov 8th 2011, 06:20 PM
Scripture is clear and in agreement with "Highlander" "There can be only one"

1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Firstfruits

You got that right
Amen

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 06:32 PM
David had faith when confronting Goliath because God had preserved him when fighting both lion and bear. David's experience prepared him to meet the next challenge. So it is with spiritual things. When we experience the things written in the bible for ourselves...our faith in the word grows....and our faith in God grows even more!People of all religions have faith in their God.