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ProDeo
Feb 13th 2011, 10:16 AM
Taken from the Progressive Revelation thread. I make it a new subject not to derail that one although this one will have much in common. I think.


If we resist the revelation of God that comes today, we are just like the Pharisees, who accepted the past revelation but rejected it's fulfilling on basis of the old!

You are making a fascinating point here. Touchy as well. Allow me to put some oil on the fire for the sake of the discussion.

Nowadays in all we think and do it's judged from what we understand from Scripture, God's revelation to man, finalized 1900+ years ago.

Who decided the latter?

Did God stop make new revelations to mankind after Rev 22:21 ?

And if God made new revelations, why is it not written down and recognized as the third testament?

How do we know for sure the old and new Testament are God's final word to us? If it is not we could be missing a lot of points. Maybe new things God wants as well. Ending up like the Pharisees, rejecting new things based on the old.

I am not promoting an extension of the Bible or so, I am just curious for good answers. If the mods feel this belongs elsewhere (Contro or Areopagus) please move it ;)

divaD
Feb 13th 2011, 01:39 PM
Taken from the Progressive Revelation thread. I make it a new subject not to derail that one although this one will have much in common. I think.



You are making a fascinating point here. Touchy as well. Allow me to put some oil on the fire for the sake of the discussion.

Nowadays in all we think and do it's judged from what we understand from Scripture, God's revelation to man, finalized 1900+ years ago.

Who decided the latter?

Did God stop make new revelations to mankind after Rev 22:21 ?

And if God made new revelations, why is it not written down and recognized as the third testament?

How do we know for sure the old and new Testament are God's final word to us? If it is not we could be missing a lot of points. Maybe new things God wants as well. Ending up like the Pharisees, rejecting new things based on the old.

I am not promoting an extension of the Bible or so, I am just curious for good answers. If the mods feel this belongs elsewhere (Contro or Areopagus) please move it ;)



I for one, if and when I did see new alleged revelations from God, as in it can't be found in Scriptures, I would absolutely believe it didn't come from God. Folks could come up with all kinds of new ideas, then claim it came straight from God. Folks do this enough already with what's written. Imagine how profound it could get with something that couldn't even be verified. The Scriptures are closed for a reason. God has nothing more to reveal to us outside of His written word.

episkopos
Feb 13th 2011, 01:59 PM
I don`t think that Neanias meant that there was a third testament. I think he may be suggesting that perhaps we have not fully grasped the significance of the new and living way provided in Christ. We are not properly entering into the 2nd testament. In other words we are receiving the message of the gospel without perceiving it`s intent. if this is so then we are stuck in an OT mentality. Did Jesus merely replace the animal sacrifice? Did Jesus just die for mankind, or was He resurrected as well so we could walk in newness of life? Is the new testament in word only or in power? The power to walk as Christ on the earth.

Neanias
Feb 13th 2011, 02:21 PM
I'm sorry if anyone misunderstood what I meant. In no way do I mean that there is some new revelation or third testament, rather there is an entering into the revelation of Christ.


I don`t think that Neanias meant that there was a third testament. I think he may be suggesting that perhaps we have not fully grasped the significance of the new and living way provided in Christ. We are not properly entering into the 2nd testament. In other words we are receiving the message of the gospel without perceiving it`s intent. if this is so then we are stuck in an OT mentality. Did Jesus merely replace the animal sacrifice? Did Jesus just die for mankind, or was He resurrected as well so we could walk in newness of life? Is the new testament in word only or in power? The power to walk as Christ on the earth.

Yes episkopos! Thank you for clarifying. Here is an example of what I'm talking about....

Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

See, the people of Samaria "received the word of God", and yet it wasn't over. They had been baptized in the name of Jesus, but they hadn't yet been baptized in the Holy Spirit. We have the same need today. We need to be filled with the Spirit, that we may walk as he walked.

ProDeo
Feb 13th 2011, 04:33 PM
I for one, if and when I did see new alleged revelations from God, as in it can't be found in Scriptures, I would absolutely believe it didn't come from God. Folks could come up with all kinds of new ideas, then claim it came straight from God. Folks do this enough already with what's written.

Absolutely, same here.


Imagine how profound it could get with something that couldn't even be verified. The Scriptures are closed for a reason.

Safe ground. Agreed. But it's a decission of man, right?


God has nothing more to reveal to us outside of His written word.

And that's a couple of bridges too far for me. How do you know? Any Scripture to offer?

ProDeo
Feb 13th 2011, 04:38 PM
I'm sorry if anyone misunderstood what I meant. In no way do I mean that there is some new revelation or third testament, rather there is an entering into the revelation of Christ.

I did not meant to put words in your mouth :blushsad:

I want to discuss the "finalization" of Scripture.

Vhayes
Feb 13th 2011, 04:58 PM
I did not meant to put words in your mouth :blushsad:

I want to discuss the "finalization" of Scripture.

Turn the question on it's head, ProDeo -

Is there any thing we might encounter in today's world that is not already covered in scripture? In my head, the answer to that is, "No."

Does that make sense?

ProDeo
Feb 14th 2011, 10:09 AM
Turn the question on it's head, ProDeo -

Is there any thing we might encounter in today's world that is not already covered in scripture? In my head, the answer to that is, "No."

Does that make sense?

No :hug:

While I understand the good point you are making it doesn't answer my questions.

Where did God say (or implied) this is my Word, it's final. Nothing new anymore, no more prophets. No third testament. That's something we decided.

Right?

IOW, I don't give up yet :)

Part 2 in next.

ProDeo
Feb 14th 2011, 10:38 AM
Turn the question on it's head, ProDeo -

Is there any thing we might encounter in today's world that is not already covered in scripture? In my head, the answer to that is, "No."

Does that make sense?

What about BF and (to put it mildly) all the colorful opinions people (myself included) hold?

Wouldn't a third testament not had been helpful?

notuptome
Feb 14th 2011, 12:50 PM
Heb 1:1-3 God has given the full revelation in His Son Christ. The express image of the Father.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Neanias
Feb 14th 2011, 03:07 PM
I would say this, ProDeo... There is no third testament for this simple reason; the first was replaced because it was a shadow of what was really to come, but now the real has come, and we can actually walk in the power of God, and we have the true high priest and the true lamb, what more can there be?

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Christ entered into heaven itself, it wasn't an image of the what happened in the spirit as in the old testament, it was in the spirit. We need no new testament because this one is perfect and allows us to walk with God and be as he is and obey the law perfectly by his power.

Neanias
Feb 14th 2011, 03:12 PM
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests [old covenant, testament], because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man [Jesus], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Christ is eternally a priest, and he is able to save to the uttermost those that come to God by him. The flaw of the old covenant is that it was not of an eternal priest, and it could not save to the uttermost, though it could make one righteous, it could not make him perfect. But the new covenant is perfect, as the Priest of it is eternal, and he is able to save to the uttermost. :)

If we have not truly experienced the power of the new covenant, it is easy to become cynical and to have unbelief as to it's power to save us to the uttermost, and so to think it is not perfect, but it is.

ProDeo
Feb 15th 2011, 12:00 PM
Thanks all for good answers on a question that was unanswerable.

Some musings......

My main concern was (is) that when God decides to do something new we scrutinize it to be in accordance with Scripture and reject it when it doesn't fit with our (my) (limited) understanding of Scripture.

Matt 22:29 Jesus answered them, You are deceived, because you donít know the scriptures or the power of God.

Pretty frightening.

That's the danger when saying that the Scriptures are closed. There is that risk - to put it strongly - we are saying, shut up God, you already have said everything. And... by closing the Scriptures isn't God limiting Himself? Why would He do that?

On the other hand.............

1) If you look at the struggling development of the New Testament Canon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon)as we accept it today it is maybe His way of doing things, always coming to His end goal. The development of the OT had its same struggles, yet the Lord referred to it, so it was inspired, thus proof the development process was according to God.

2) Living in a 21th century media world, including fora as this and all the different opinions people hold imagine Scripture to be open and the chaos it would create. Maybe God in His wisdom decided to protect us from ourselves and indeed closed the Scriptures.

3) God gave us Jesus. Christ is all. There (indeed) is nothing more to be said.

Nevertheless I expect some surprises when it's my time for promotion.

divaD
Feb 15th 2011, 03:11 PM
Matt 22:29 Jesus answered them, You are deceived, because you donít know the scriptures or the power of God.

Pretty frightening.

That's the danger when saying that the Scriptures are closed. There is that risk - to put it strongly - we are saying, shut up God, you already have said everything. And... by closing the Scriptures isn't God limiting Himself? Why would He do that?




I fail to see your point. Jesus said you don't know the Scriptures, not you don't know outside the Scriptures.

episkopos
Feb 15th 2011, 05:37 PM
The truth is being obscured here.

Does the bible say...

"Tarry ye here in Jerusalem until you receive a bible from the printer?"

"Those that read their bibles these are the sons of God?"

"The bibles you have..these are spirit and life."

"If through reading your bible you put to death the sins done in the body, you shall live? "

Just like the law, the bible DOES NOT provide the power to fulfill the commandments. One must be filled with the Holy Spirit to do so. Rather than just believing words, we should be filled with faith and inherit the promises in reality. Do our lives reflect the biblical record of power and victory??? Does the bible replace our victory?

Or is the bible a magic book meant to be worshipped and believed in for salvation????

This is what Jesus Christ has to say about salvation through belief in a book ...

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; John 5:39

So rather than being readers or hearers of the word, we ought to be believers and doers of the word.

The bible is a wonderful gift to those who have put faith in God. It teaches us to seek for God by faith. The bible SPEAKS of Christ, but it is NOT Christ Himself. Do we look to the gift OR the Giver? Are we idolators or believers? As Christians we are not people of a book...we are to be people of the Spirit and faith. Would that people actually believed the truth rather than just give lip service to words they read.

The bible can't save you. Only Jesus Christ can. Look to Him not a book.

episkopos
Feb 15th 2011, 05:57 PM
Many claim to believe in the word (logos) but reject the living word (rhema). They operate as Muslims do with the Koran...mere human belief. They have seen or experienced nothing of the power of resurrection SPOKEN OF in the bible. For them, one need simply "believe" in the history of what's written.

But faith is from God. It is a gift that allows us to enter into a new birth from above according to the will of God.

Those who operate by their own belief are of the type that put Jesus to death. So it is today with "Christians" who base their lives on belief rather than faith. They destroy the message of the gospel through human philosophies and carnal reasonings.

divaD
Feb 15th 2011, 06:22 PM
The truth is being obscured here.

Does the bible say...

"Tarry ye here in Jerusalem until you receive a bible from the printer?"

"Those that read their bibles these are the sons of God?"

"The bibles you have..these are spirit and life."

"If through reading your bible you put to death the sins done in the body, you shall live? "

Just like the law, the bible DOES NOT provide the power to fulfill the commandments. One must be filled with the Holy Spirit to do so. Rather than just believing words, we should be filled with faith and inherit the promises in reality. Do our lives reflect the biblical record of power and victory??? Does the bible replace our victory?

Or is the bible a magic book meant to be worshipped and believed in for salvation????

This is what Jesus Christ has to say about salvation through belief in a book ...

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; John 5:39

So rather than being readers or hearers of the word, we ought to be believers and doers of the word.

The bible is a wonderful gift to those who have put faith in God. It teaches us to seek for God by faith. The bible SPEAKS of Christ, but it is NOT Christ Himself. Do we look to the gift OR the Giver? Are we idolators or believers? As Christians we are not people of a book...we are to be people of the Spirit and faith. Would that people actually believed the truth rather than just give lip service to words they read.

The bible can't save you. Only Jesus Christ can. Look to Him not a book.



I agree with your post overall I think. But everything we need to know about eternal life, about Christ, etc, it is found in the Scriptures. Without them, what would any of us know about anything today? Suppose there were no Scriptures today, but folks kept telling us about this Jesus? How could we know that it was even true, if we couldn't at least read the evidence for ourselves? And as far as being doers of the word, doesn't there first have to be the word, so that one can be doers of it also? Wouldn't we then be does of the written word? If the word tells us to feed the poor for example, what else do we need to know outside of that? Is there a need for a 3rd testament to help us better understand what feeding the poor means?

episkopos
Feb 15th 2011, 07:06 PM
I agree with your post overall I think. But everything we need to know about eternal life, about Christ, etc, it is found in the Scriptures. Without them, what would any of us know about anything today? Suppose there were no Scriptures today, but folks kept telling us about this Jesus? How could we know that it was even true, if we couldn't at least read the evidence for ourselves? And as far as being doers of the word, doesn't there first have to be the word, so that one can be doers of it also? Wouldn't we then be does of the written word? If the word tells us to feed the poor for example, what else do we need to know outside of that? Is there a need for a 3rd testament to help us better understand what feeding the poor means?

I definitely agree Diva!!! ;) The bible is an invaluable means for instruction in the truth! It is our greatest possesion. But a possession it is! We cannot possess the truth. It can however possess us!!! :)

I think the title of the thread is plain wrong. I don't believe that Neanias had anything of the sort in mind when he wrote what was copied as an OP onto this thread.

Neanias
Feb 15th 2011, 10:33 PM
Amen episkopos! Thank you for clarifying what I meant...


Many claim to believe in the word (logos) but reject the living word (rhema).

This sums it up perfectly...

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

We act as though we need the Bible more than the anointing... When it's the other way around! Peter, for example, warns us that men have taken the epistles and twisted them to their own destruction... How do we avoid that? Follow the Spirit! If you accept the written word, but reject the spirit, you are rejecting Christ!