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Grace40
Sep 14th 2004, 09:47 PM
I've been reading in another thread about OSAS and was wondering, is it only the Baptist that believe in OSAS?

theabaud
Sep 14th 2004, 10:24 PM
hi Linda,

I am a Bpatist and I must answere this question. Most other denominations hold the same belief in an eternal salvation. There has been a modern move away from this, but at one time eternal salvation was a belief held by most protestant peoples. Some churches of these faiths are now moving away from this doctrine.

I cannot speak for all of these groups, but one that comes to my mind is the Methodist. There are others, but methodists are the only others I can speak of with a surety.

From what perspective does you question come from?

Nick.

pal
Sep 15th 2004, 02:34 AM
I believe that pentecostals also believe that a man can lose his salvation. Probably a lot of other denominations, too.

moonglow
Sep 15th 2004, 03:35 AM
Well I am not either of these and I believe in OSAS ONLY through my own studies....I have never attended a church that said either way on this issue actually.

I don't know that denomation has alot to do with actually...but I don't know!


God bless
Julie

MommyT
Sep 15th 2004, 03:48 AM
Could someone explain to me what exactly OSAS is. I am a new born again, and I have no idea what that is and would like to learn more. Thanks.

Kahtar
Sep 15th 2004, 04:42 AM
Acronym for Once Saved Always Saved.

CorpusIslander
Sep 15th 2004, 07:39 AM
Presbyterians, members of the Reformed Church, most Baptists, and many Charismatics believe in OSAS. Angicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals, and other denominations reject OSAS as well as many Bible believing Baptists and Charismatics.

always
Sep 15th 2004, 09:40 PM
Presbyterians, members of the Reformed Church, most Baptists, and many Charismatics believe in OSAS. Angicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals, and other denominations reject OSAS as well as many Bible believing Baptists and Charismatics.
Hbr 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame....

guntario
Sep 15th 2004, 09:56 PM
Could someone explain to me what exactly OSAS is. I am a new born again, and I have no idea what that is and would like to learn more. Thanks.OSAS is a huge debate. Once Saved Always Saved. Like the pre-trib rapture theory (sometimes known as Premillenial Dispensation) it's my belief (yes recently) that this is a guise of Satan meant to divert us Christians from our primary purpose. I mean, who cares if God's plan is to rapture us? It's God's plan, not ours! If you are a believer in Jesus, follow in his ways, spread his gospel and are baptised, you are good to go! We are instructed to make disciples of men, not teach them about Pre-trib theory or OSAS. Literally, disciple means student.

Strong's Number: 3101

Definition

a learner, pupil, disciple

theabaud
Sep 15th 2004, 11:27 PM
Presbyterians, members of the Reformed Church, most Baptists, and many Charismatics believe in OSAS. Angicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals, and other denominations reject OSAS as well as many Bible believing Baptists and Charismatics.

Actually the majority of Methodists hold to OSAS. Also only a very small minority of so called Baptist hold to any other doctrine.

One other thing, I believe in an eternal salvation. I am a Bible-believing, bench jumping, shouting, angry at sin Independent Fundamental BAPTIST.

Plaske
Sep 15th 2004, 11:39 PM
Not really. There are also non-denoms, some charismatics, and others that believe it.

And just to clarify, Presbyterians, Reformed Churches, and Reofmred Baptists do not believe in OSAS. We believe what is called "Perserverence of the Saints", which is a form of ternal Security but is not OSAS, which is, at it's purest, Antinomianism.


Actually the majority of Methodists hold to OSAS.

Are you sure? Methodists are Weslayans, and John Wesley was strongly against eternal security....

God Bless

Plaske
Sep 15th 2004, 11:44 PM
Is this going to turn into an eternal security debate? :(

guntario
Sep 15th 2004, 11:59 PM
Are you sure? Methodists are Weslayans, and John Wesley was strongly against eternal security....

God Bless
Being a Methodist, I'd have to agree with you there...

JohnnyOU
Sep 16th 2004, 12:11 AM
I'm on the fence about the OSAS thing (never knew there was an acronym for it until today though:D ).

What makes me think you can in fact lose your salvation is, for example, where Jesus said while talking to the church:
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. [Rev 3:5]

I cannot see why Jesus would mention to these christians that he wouldn't erase their name from the book of life if they repented, unless it was very possible to have your name erased.

Your thoughts?

Johnny

dancedwithdolphin
Sep 16th 2004, 01:44 AM
I have gone to many churches. Not all the same denomination. Funny, all this time I have spent in church growing up and as an adult I have never heard of this doctrine. Many of the things spoke about as a debate I have never heard of.

For me, when God reveiled himself to me, I wouldnt have thought to ask God, hey will I always be saved or will you forget about me. What did God tell the Israelites about forgetting them, that he could never forget about them. Even if it were possible for a parent to forget about his children, God wouldnt do that. When God brought his children out of the land of Egypt, he didnt bring them into the wilderness to let them die. Why save someone from bondage and slavery only to let them die. To trust God means you believe that he will do as he promised. He promised Abraham, through his descendants that they would inherit the land of promise. He would be their God and they his people. In the wilderness God was teaching them to trust him. God will provide.

God did the same with Jesus Christ our Lord. He did not send his only son into the world to save us from bondage and slavery only to let us die in the wilderness. Yet in the wilderness, we are learning to trust. To know that God provided a way, and he cares for those whom he has saved. Set free.

I had a beautiful arabian mare. I loved this horse so much. God gave her to me. She was everything I ever wanted. I put up a make shift fence, It wasnt too good. She could reach right over and eat grass outside of her area. I cared for her everyday. She was plump and well cared for. One day she decided to escape into the pasture that belonged to our neighbor. It was really foggy and I was very concerned for her. I didnt want her to get into the road and get hit. So I went out looking for her everywhere. I drove up and down the road until I spotted her in the field. I got her lead and led her home. Fed her grain and hay, brushed her and loved her.

Now my horse is perfectly capable of escape any time she wants. This fence (meant for her protection) was merely there to keep her home. When she left she must have learned that she was better off with us. She never escaped again. She was fed twice a day, given grass cuttings, watered fresh regularly, I would sit on her bare back and let her graze for hours, or allow her to graze while I brushed and groomed her. Basically she was spoiled. But she knew how good she had it. And never longed to leave again.

How is this different than us. We were purchased flesh. Placed in a beautiful grassy field, with the fence of righteousness to protect us and keep us safe from harm. Our wonderful master cares for us, tends to our every need. Everyone who passes by see's that we are well cared for by our master. We may escape once to test the neighbors field, but once we realize how good we have it with our master, why escape?

Just my thoughts on the OSAS. I was a baptist most of my life, never heard of this discussion before. I decided I dont want to be a denomination. I just want to follow my Lord. Trusting God above all. (The fulfilled law was meant to save, not cause death. Freedom not bondage).

CorpusIslander
Sep 16th 2004, 07:52 AM
And just to clarify, Presbyterians, Reformed Churches, and Reofmred Baptists do not believe in OSAS. We believe what is called "Perserverence of the Saints", which is a form of ternal Security but is not OSAS, which is, at it's purest, Antinomianism.

Could you explain the difference between the two? Probably some of the other denominations if not all of them believe in the same thing.

Grace40
Sep 16th 2004, 01:34 PM
hi Linda,


From what perspective does you question come from?

Nick.
Nick,
I was raised Pentecostal, so I never heard of OSAS until I married my X-husband and he was Baptist. I now work with a Church of Christ lady and she is non-OSAS, I aslo work with a lady that is Baptist and she is very much OSAS. So I thought maybe it was just a Baptist doctrine.

Grace40
Sep 16th 2004, 01:37 PM
I'm on the fence about the OSAS thing (never knew there was an acronym for it until today though:D ).

What makes me think you can in fact lose your salvation is, for example, where Jesus said while talking to the church:
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. [Rev 3:5]

I cannot see why Jesus would mention to these christians that he wouldn't erase their name from the book of life if they repented, unless it was very possible to have your name erased.

Your thoughts?

JohnnyI agree with what you have said. I just feel in my heart that you can lose your salvation.

always
Sep 16th 2004, 01:48 PM
I also agree that you can lose your salvation, and my concerns with the osas doctrine is that it can lead some people to think as long as I speak with my mouth that I accept Jesus, I'm saved, and they can continue living the same life. When we accept Jesus yes, we proclaim it but most of all we live it.


There is a difference between saved and unsaved, the bible says that God is "married to the backslider", can one who believes this doctrine explain what in their minds is a backslider? if we OSAS:hmm:

StarscreamX-2
Sep 16th 2004, 07:14 PM
Antinomianism

I find it interesting the Catholics find this "Perhaps the greatest heresy of all time".


Perhaps the greatest heresy of all time, Antinomianism preaches that souls are saved only by God's grace... and so there's absolutely no reason to refrain from every imaginable vice and sin.

Isnt this the OSAS stance?


Definition:


antinomianism

NOUN: 1. Theology The doctrine or belief that the Gospel frees Christians from required obedience to any law, whether scriptural, civil, or moral, and that salvation is attained solely through faith and the gift of divine grace. 2. The belief that moral laws are relative in meaning and application as opposed to fixed or universal.

This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia....Here (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01564b.htm)

OSAS...Ticket to Sin....no Baptist I know teaches this Line of thought...Being a Baptist Im offended that it is assumed that we Teach a "PARTY till you DROP" Doctrine. Sure I stand by the fact that I cant "lose" my Salvation or even "Walk" away from it. But to Sit back and say we are teaching folks that "Now that your saved Bob, Go out and Party it Up...God will look the other way!" is a bunch of bunk.


and my concerns with the osas doctrine is that it can lead some people to think as long as I speak with my mouth that I accept Jesus, I'm saved, and they can continue living the same life.

I would have doubts that a person like this was ever saved...but its not my place to Judge. And Im taught that if Im trully saved but refuse Gods will in my life I will be Punished. That punishment can and will lead to God calling me home with no rewards. No One I have ever met that claims to be any kind of Baptist teaches that Salvation is a Ticket to Sin Doctrine.


When we accept Jesus yes, we proclaim it but most of all we live it.
We teach the same thing. We are commanded to live a life as close to God as possible for a being still in corruptible Flesh. None are rightous no not one. Cant get more plain than that. But if I sin, wont God forgive it? Of Course. If I chose to live in a life of continuos sin will God Bless me...NO! Why would he. Would you continue to allow your child to disobey without punishment? Of course not. BUt if your child ran away or cussed you or married a person of the same sex, would that cause you to stop loving Her? Would she No longer be your Daughter? Of course not. So why would God do that to You. If you say he would than you admit my love for my child is greater than Gods for me. You also say that Gentically your Son or Daughter is no longer yours and spritually God is no longer mine if I walk away or Sin.
Why did God compare Salvation to Birth? Because like being born of my parents Flesh will always tie them to me...Salvation will always tie me to Christ.


There is a difference between saved and unsaved, the bible says that God is "married to the backslider", can one who believes this doctrine explain what in their minds is a backslider? if we OSAS

Sorry i dont understand the Question...what verse are you refering to.

Give me some examples of poeple in the Bible that came in and out and back into Salvation...I would like to study this point further so i may not respond any time soon.

JohnnyOU
Sep 16th 2004, 07:18 PM
I agree with what you have said. I just feel in my heart that you can lose your salvation.
Thanks Linda. I love direct responses! :D

Johnny

Follower
Sep 16th 2004, 07:22 PM
StarscreenX,


Isnt this the OSAS stance?Not really. Typically a covenant theology OSAS believer will not be antinomian. And typically a dispensational OSAS believer (like me) will be antinomian. Covenant theology has a belief that the Church has replaced Israel (in various forms and ways), therefore the law applies to the Christian. Dispensationalists have the belief that the Church is a new creation, therefore the law does not apply to the Christian but rather the Christian is "enlawed" to Christ.

With Jesus' love,

Follower (http://www.parkbc.org/follower)

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him" Has God made His home with you?

Plaske
Sep 16th 2004, 07:46 PM
Could you explain the difference between the two? Probably some of the other denominations if not all of them believe in the same thing.

Hello,

I believe that a good dfinition of Antinomianism. Perserverence of the Saints says that true faith will produce good works, and I true believer will show His good works and not be corrupted his life. It does not deny that true believers willl have periods where they will fall, but that Christ, as the Good Shepard will bring them back. God preserves, believers perserver.

God Bless

Teke
Sep 16th 2004, 07:56 PM
Antinomianism

I find it interesting the Catholics find this "Perhaps the greatest heresy of all time".



This is one reason why I will not debate the issue. I don't want to sound like a Catholic. Catholics debate and decide who is saved and who will not be etc. Even if one professes to be a christian, how do I know, I must take them at their word and let God decide.

JohnnyOU
Sep 16th 2004, 08:03 PM
It does not deny that true believers willl have periods where they will fall, but that Christ, as the Good Shepard will bring them back. God preserves, believers perserver.

God Bless
Nicely put :)

I've kept the Good Shepard busy quite a few times. :B

Johnny

JohnnyOU
Sep 16th 2004, 08:12 PM
Catholics debate and decide who is saved and who will not be etc.
That would crack me up if it wasn't so sickening. I can't imagine how anyone could believe some guy in a tacky Liberacie-looking outfit could condemn their souls forever if he wanted to.

The modern-day christian pharasees.

Just my opinion :)
Johnny

Plaske
Sep 16th 2004, 10:21 PM
Hello Teke,


This is one reason why I will not debate the issue. I don't want to sound like a Catholic. Catholics debate and decide who is saved and who will not be etc. Even if one professes to be a christian, how do I know, I must take them at their word and let God decide.
(emph. mine)

Perhaps a Catholic 300 or so years ago, but I have never seen a modern-day Catholic do this. Have you?

God Bless

Teke
Sep 17th 2004, 01:44 PM
Hello Teke,


(emph. mine)

Perhaps a Catholic 300 or so years ago, but I have never seen a modern-day Catholic do this. Have you?

God Bless


The Catholic church requires a lot of works to be done to achieve ones salvation. Unless things have changed they still have christenings, first communions, confession etc. Their standard is your faithfulness and obedience to the church.

I could be wrong and have old information if the Catholics have begun to accept a believer by their faith in Christ alone. Far as I know, you still have to prove that in a Catholic church. Sainthood depends on meeting their requirements also, those being very strict.

When a catholic is excommunicated, what do you think that means?

CorpusIslander
Sep 18th 2004, 02:52 AM
Perhaps a Catholic 300 or so years ago, but I have never seen a modern-day Catholic do this. Have you?

God Bless


You don't meet many Catholics do you? Yes this is very common. Something that has caused many of them to leave the RCC is that after somebody dies it's not unusual for the priests to say to the family so and so didn't give enough in tithes so they don't have a good afterlife but if you donate now we'll pray and get him into Heaen :confused

Plaske
Sep 18th 2004, 01:28 PM
You don't meet many Catholics do you? Yes this is very common. Something that has caused many of them to leave the RCC is that after somebody dies it's not unusual for the priests to say to the family so and so didn't give enough in tithes so they don't have a good afterlife but if you donate now we'll pray and get him into Heaen :confused

No, I have met numerous Catholics, pretty much all practicing Catholics. I have neever heard of the situation you have provided.

God Bless

CorpusIslander
Sep 19th 2004, 05:44 AM
I don't agree with some of the ideas on the thread I'm posting a link to (Catholics aren't Christians, Passion of the Christ is an evil movie) but this link will take you to a post that gives a good example of Catholics judging others:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=16160&highlight=mel+gibson+wife

Plaske
Sep 19th 2004, 01:45 PM
Thank you Courpus :)

God Bless

pal
Sep 19th 2004, 03:21 PM
Well, I firmly believe in OSAS, as I believe God has brought me from the other side of the debate to the pro OSAS view. And I'm sure God would do that for any of us who will humble ourselves and rely not on our own understanding of the Scriptures, but on the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

For example, we can look at a particular passage and just assume that we know what it means, without humbling ourselves to the point of saying "My own understanding is worthless," and then asking God for an understanding of the passage. I'm not saying it will happen overnight, and I'm definitely not saying that I have all the answers or know more than the next guy, but I do know that apparent contradictions within the Bible will begin to sort themselves out if we look deeper into certain passages.

Another personal example I have in regards to changing my thoughts on particluar passages are the ones that speak of the "outer darkness" (Matthew22, 25). I used to firmly hold to the idea that the outer darkness is hell. And if we just read those passages with our eyes, then it would appear to be that way. But when we begin to humble ourselves and let God show us the meaning of these passages, we will begin to see them in a whole different light.

I certainly don't have a total understanding of the outer darkness, but I am quite confident that it can not be hell, and knowing that can be a huge factor in our thoughts and beliefs on OSAS. I believe there is a difference between the "crown of life" and general salvation from eternal hell.

For instance, compare the description of the parable of the wedding banquet in Matthew 22 to the one in Luke 14. There is no mention of the "outer darkness" in Luke 14, but we can still be sure that this is the same parable that was spoken of in the book of Matthew. If we put the parable (in Luke) within the context of the whole chapter, we see that the whole chapter is about discipleship and rewards, NOT salvation. And when we compare the two, we also see that the man in Matthew who got thrown into outer darkness is the same man who was too busy with the things of the world to accept the invitation to the wedding banquet. He was saved, but did not want to live a life of obedience and make God first in his life, therefore, he was THROWN OUT of God's presence (which he was already in), into the outer darkness.

We also can see how the outer darkness relates to the parable of the talents in Matthew 25. It would be senseless for us to say that we believe a man is saved by grace thru faith, and not saved by works - and then turn around and say that we believe the servant in this parable was cast into hell for not using his talents, or money, skills, blessings, or whatever the "talents" represent in this parable. That would involve salvation by way of "doing works." And we all know that this is not how we're saved.

So yes, I do believe in OSAS, but I also believe there is a difference between salvation from hell, and having a "crown of life," and reigning in the kingdom with Christ.

Here are some passages that we can contemplate:

2 John 1
8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

Since we know that we absoloutely can NOT work for our salvation, then we know that this verse is definitely not warning us about losing our salvation. It is warning us about falling away to a point where we lose rewards and some particular status in the eternal kingdom.

1 Corinthians 3
12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Here we see of men being saved by "escaping thru the flames." Obviously this can not be hell because it says they are saved. It also says in that passage that the reason they are saved "escaping thru the flames" is because they did not carry out quality works. It says nothing about sin. And it's important to point out that SIN is not the reason that the people in those parables are thrown into outer darkness, but lack of good works, and lack of discipleship. Being saved by "escaping thru the flames" sounds a lot like "throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Whether or not the outer darkness is temporary or permanent, I don't know. But I do know that it is not fair to compare the outer darkness teaching with the heresy of purgatory, because purgatory teaches temporary detainment due to sin, ALL OF WHICH was atoned for by Jesus Christ. Outer darkness (temporary or permanetn) detainment appears to be due to lack of bearing fruit.

If we think of eternity as a Kingdom, as opposed to just "heaven or hell," then it could begin to give us more insight into a lot of Biblical issues, especially OSAS. And humbling ourselves involves having to confess to God, others, (and even more difficult than that, ourselves)that we were wrong about our interpretation of certain parts of Scripture. I have had to do that many times in the past, and I may very well have to again in the future. But I believe this kind of humility pleases God to the point where he begins to lead us to more and more Biblical understanding.

JohnnyOU
Sep 19th 2004, 06:35 PM
Pal,
I agree with most of what you say.

What do you think about where Jesus brings up the idea of having our names erased from the book of Life?

He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. [Rev 3:5]

The book of Life is the Lamb's book of Life, and anyone whose name is not in there will be cast into the lake of fire it says.

Your thoughts?

Johnny

pal
Sep 19th 2004, 07:08 PM
Well, some people believe that there will be a pre-tribulational rapture of all believers, or just devout believers in Jesus Christ. And they believe that at that point, the dispensation of the church age, AND salvation by grace will be over. Notice that in Revelation, the dragon is warring against the remnant of God's seed, and that the remnant, besides staying faithful to Jesus, keep the Commandments of God. Many feel that the "remnant" refers to the remnant of Israel, who will finally turn to God during the tribulation

Revelation 12
17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

So thefefore, because the dispensation of "OSAS" grace will be over, then it will require faith plus adherence to the Law until the end to be saved. And so people say that those verses that speak of enduring to the end to ensure salvation refer to this situation. It also could fit in with Jesus' comment to that church, warning them that He will come like a thief. Perhaps their lack of obedience will cause them to be left behind, and forced to endure the tribulation, at which point they WILL have to endure to the end. (Someone who knows more about dispensationalism can correct me if I'm wrong about that.)

That is all very speculatory, and I wouldn't suggest for a second that it is correct.

A more worthy defense of Rev. 3:5, I believe, would be the fact that Jesus said He will never erase their names from the book of life, those that overcome. I don't interpret that to say that He will erase someone's name from the book of life for some type of circumstance. In fact, there is no Scripture that I'm aware of that says God absolutely will, or has erased someone's name from the book of life.

Also remember that the names in the book of life were already written in there from the creation of the world.

Revelation 17
8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

So, whether you subscribe to the point of view of the dispensationalists, or to the second viewpoint that I offered, we can be assured that God knows those who are His, and the names that are in the book of life are there for good. Those whose names are not in the book of life are not or never were saved. God will equip those who are His with whatever is needed to endure.
Jesus said so -
John 6
38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

christianchick
Sep 19th 2004, 10:08 PM
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one." Jhn 10:27-30


Well, I thought I'd post this - I know I'll have much more said - but this is what I've read and what I believe as a Christian (Non-denominational) -- only because it's in black and white in the Bible. Not because someone said it was so ...... hope this helps on the ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED debate.

YSIC
Katie

Kahtar
Sep 20th 2004, 02:48 AM
I know before I post this that it will spawn discussion. That actually is why I am posting it, because I need input from 'both sides of the fence' so to speak. It is rather lengthy, and I appologize for that.
Here it is:

How many people, do you think, who call themselves Christian, still sin?
Do you still sin?
Is it possible to not sin?
Here is what the Word says:
1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
So we can see that we all sin. Here is another verse.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Everyone has sinned. And everyone continues to sin, even after they are saved. Even Paul the Apostle had that problem:
Romans 7:15-25 I don't understand what I am doing. For I don't do what I want to do, but instead do what I hate. Now if I do what I don't want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but I cannot carry it out. For I don't do the good I want to do, but instead do the evil that I don't want to do.
But if I do what I don't want to do, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
So I find this to be a law: when I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me. For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
But now let's look at this verse:
1John 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
This verse says that if we are born of God, we cannot sin! How can that be? Is the Word speaking two different things? It would seem that if the first part was true, then this part cannot be true, or the other way around. So how do we interpret this?
First of all, the Word never contradicts itself, or speaks two different things. But sometimes the way we understand it is wrong.
So how do we bring these two together so they make sense?
The answer is actually very simple.
You know already that we have three parts to us, our body, our soul, and our spirit.
And you know that these three parts are all separate from each other, but all are a part of you. You know already that when the body dies, the spirit and soul will go to heaven, and we will receive a new kind of body when we get there, one just like Jesus now has.
You have also heard about being born again, which happens when you accept Jesus as your Savior, and you become saved.
Here is what Jesus said about it:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
So we have to be born again to get to heaven. Now, since we have three parts, which part is actually being born again? Is your body being born again? No, of course not. What about your soul?
Your soul is where your mind, your will, and your emotions are. It is where you make decisions. It is where you decide to listen to your flesh and sin even though you are saved.
No, your soul does not change very much right away when you get saved. Here is what Jesus said:
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
So, that which is flesh is our body, and our soul. So it is our spirit man that is born again, and given new life.
So now let's go back and put this together with I John 3:9 again:
1John 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
He who has been born of God, or born again, does not sin, and cannot sin. And he who has been born again is the spirit man.
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
So, because your spirit has been born of God, it is part of God, and it cannot sin. No matter what your flesh does, your spirit does not sin. That is why Paul the Apostle said " But if I do what I don't want to do, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. "
So, once we have been born again, we can no longer sin in our spirit man, and we shall see heaven.
Jesus said:
John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
So all of your sins, including the ones that you will do in the future, have been forgiven, and you are born again, a new person, a new spirit, in Jesus Christ.
Romans 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
So, does that mean that it is okay to go ahead and sin as much as you want? No, of course not.
Galatians 5:16 I say, then, Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Romans 6:1-12 What should we say, then? Should we go on sinning so that grace may increase? Of course not! How can we who died as far as sin is concerned go on living in it?
Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into union with Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore, through baptism we were buried with him into his death so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father's glory, we too may live an entirely new life.
For if we have become united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
We know that our old selves were crucified with him so that our sinful bodies might be rendered powerless and we might no longer be slaves to sin. For the person who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him, for we know that Christ, who was raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has mastery over him. For when he died, he died once and for all as far as sin is concerned. But now that he is alive, he lives for God.
In the same way, you too must continually consider yourselves dead as far as sin is concerned, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Therefore, do not let sin rule your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires. Stop offering the parts of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness. Instead, offer yourselves to God as people who have been brought from death to life and the parts of your body as instruments of righteousness to God.

JohnnyOU
Sep 20th 2004, 04:28 AM
I know before I post this that it will spawn discussion. That actually is why I am posting it, because I need input from 'both sides of the fence' so to speak. It is rather lengthy, and I appologize for that.
Here it is:

How many people, do you think, who call themselves Christian, still sin?
Do you still sin?
Is it possible to not sin?
Here is what the Word says:

I still sin. Sometimes more than others.

If anyone tells me they don't still sin, I'll just wonder what else they're lying to me about :)

Johnny

christianchick
Sep 26th 2004, 04:23 PM
Once again, as I stated before in the scripture - I believe that OSAS. The thing I see the most with this argument (aside from satin thwarting the black and white text in the BIBLE) is that the argument then comes down to .... "sin". Don't you realize that we ALL sin, we are ALL SINNERS - and we have to REPENT for that. When we repent and turn from that sin, we are FORGIVEN and the SLATE IS WIPED CLEAN. We are to always live by the Spirit and TRY NOT TO SIN, but why in the world do you think that Jesus died on the cross for us? Not because we could live a totally sinless life?? We are human and it's part of this world we live in, and the LORD KNOWS THIS - He FORGIVES our sins, even ones that we "forget" to repent for .....

I think the point that is being missed here is a VERY LARGE ONE, having salvation is much more than "oooops, did I sin?" -- it's YOUR HEART, DO YOU LOVE THE LORD AND HONOR THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, and YOUR FRUITS, do they speak or show the Holy Spirit? Mine don't ALWAYS, but then I pray about it and repent, and ask the Lord to help me - do you think that at that point I've lost my salvation?? NO!! The Lord states OVER AND OVER AND OVER again all throughout the Bible that we must COME TO HIM, CALL OUT TO HIM, TRUST IN HIM, NEED HIM, REPENT OUR SINS TO HIM, TURN FROM SIN WHEN WE SEE IT OR STUMBLE, LOVE HIM, and He will make our paths straight.

Here's a scripture to think about ...... and just ONE of many -- I'm sorry, I just don't believe that because someone crosses over the yellow line and sins, they lose their salvation ..... A SIN IS A SIN IS A SIN - so even the smallest, is like the largest. So that's that??


Have you never heard or understood? Don't you know that the LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of all the earth? He never grows faint or weary. No one can measure the depths of his understanding. He gives power to those who are tired and worn out; he offers strength to the weak. Even youths will become exhausted, and young men will give up. But those who wait on the LORD will find new strength. They will fly high on wings like eagles. They will run and not grow weary. They will walk and not faint. Isa 40:28-31


If THIS is the Lord we are talking about, the same "LORD" who wrote the TRUTH IN HIS WORDS - then tell me, how can this Lord cast someone down because they had sinned after being saved? He's TALKING about struggle and strife here, He KNOWS we are going to go through it again and again in this world, and He is TEACHING US to LOOK TO HIM, KEEP OUR EYES ON HIM and He will lead us home, HE WILL HELP US WHEN WE ARE WEARY, WHEN WE FALL OR STUMBLE - (in other words, when we sin/stumble - when we might look away from the Lord, when we try to do things ourselves in haste and don't wait on the Lord, HERE He reminds us - that HE WILL HELP US, HIS CHILDREN.) -- then explain to me, how we get into discussions about "if we sin, then we might lose our salvation" and then bring up scripture and twist and turn it to try to convince ourselves that OUR FATHER IS NOT WHO HE SAYS HE IS IN BLACK AND WHITE!!?? Just follow what He says, He didn't say this above scripture for fun, He said it for a reason.

Just trying to help, I'm going to move on from this topic as I feel that it's nothing but satin trying to make some feel "unworthy" of believing that they are children of GOD and trying to make people twist and turn their minds into wondering, confused souls. I will NOT entertain the devil and demons that lurk. I WILL not let them thwart the Fathers WORDS IN BLACK AND WHITE. When the Father told me that I was his child, forever safe in His arms and no one ever again would take me away from Him, that He will always love me and help me THROUGH sin as a growing / learning Christian, sorry - but I believed HIM.

JoshLivin4Christ
May 22nd 2007, 06:52 PM
Its not only baptist, listen if we mess up and sin God will forgive us-1 John says that, i will say this I dont believe after someone gets saved that dont give them the right to live like hell, because God puts a new man inside of that teaches how to live and you keep sinning and getting by with it I dont believe you really got it in the first place. Let me say something else without holiness no man shall see God. Also in book of Corithans it says he would give your body over to Satan, so God can save the soul. How bout this we need live and procalim it in our lives or never got it. Some will that you believe in saved and lost tommorrow. I dont believe you can live any old way. Just ponder of what I said.

Saved7
May 22nd 2007, 07:19 PM
I believe what the bible says, he that endures till the end shall be saved.
And that on no other foundation can I build except Christ. And what I build with, if it survives the judgement, then I have that to take with me as my reward.

BadDog
May 24th 2007, 12:21 PM
I've been reading in another thread about OSAS and was wondering, is it only the Baptist that believe in OSAS?No! Though it is true that nearly all Baptist congregations hold to eternal security.

All Reformed churches hold to it as well as many churches which are not necessarily Reformed (such as the wide range of Baptist churches). Martin Luther - who started the Protestant reformation - held to it, FWIW. So some consider it a corner stone to reformation doctrine.

Buit there are many, solid churches and ministries which do not hold to OSAS.

BD