PDA

View Full Version : Split thread from Wisconsin Democrats



awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:03 PM
As to the earlier conversation on the public school system - God has been completely removed from the public school system and apart from Him, there is no true wisdom. And it doesn't matter at that point how much money you try to solve the problem with, if you teach the children while demanding that True Wisdom not be involved, you're going to crank out arrogant idiots, no matter how much they have "learned."

Vhayes
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:17 PM
As to the earlier conversation on the public school system - God has been completely removed from the public school system and apart from Him, there is no true wisdom. And it doesn't matter at that point how much money you try to solve the problem with, if you teach the children while demanding that True Wisdom not be involved, you're going to crank out arrogant idiots, no matter how much they have "learned."

Good. I'll make sure to tell some of the Hindu teachers in the school system here that.

Whose God do you advocate? In their opinion, if we "reintroduce" God in the classroom, we are talking about Vishnu. Will you be good with that?

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:22 PM
As to the earlier conversation on the public school system - God has been completely removed from the public school system and apart from Him, there is no true wisdom. And it doesn't matter at that point how much money you try to solve the problem with, if you teach the children while demanding that True Wisdom not be involved, you're going to crank out arrogant idiots, no matter how much they have "learned."Yeah I am with V on this one. God has no place in a public school system.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:37 PM
Good. I'll make sure to tell some of the Hindu teachers in the school system here that.

Whose God do you advocate? In their opinion, if we "reintroduce" God in the classroom, we are talking about Vishnu. Will you be good with that?

Huh??? I advocate the only true God. I don't think the solution is to remove all the temples to other god's AND remove all temples to the one true God. The solution is not to say: Well, all people don't beleive in the one true God, so therefore, He may not be mentioned in our schools or public places. That is like....he did good in the Lord's sight and tore down all the idols and false temples of his fathers, but He also tore down all the temples to the true God and removed all of His laws from the doorposts...

Vhayes
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:39 PM
Huh??? I advocate the only true God. I don't think the solution is to remove all the temples to other god's AND remove all temples to the one true God. The solution is not to say: Well, all people don't beleive in the one true God, so therefore, He may not be mentioned in our schools or public places. That is like....he did good in the Lord's sight and tore down all the idols and false temples of his fathers, but He also tore down all the temples to the true God and removed all of His laws from the doorposts...

So - you would be fine with your child sitting in a third grade classroom while his Hindu teacher leads him in prayer to Vishnu?

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:39 PM
Yeah I am with V on this one. God has no place in a public school system.

We disagree then. I don't dare to say there is a single place on earth or in our "systems" where He has "no place."

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:41 PM
We disagree then. I don't dare to say there is a single place on earth or in our "systems" where He has "no place."
Fine thing for a Christian to say. What about people who believe something different?

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:41 PM
[QUOTE=Vhayes;2625320]So - you would be fine with your child sitting in a third grade classroom while his Hindu teacher leads him in prayer to Vishnu?[/QUOTE

No I would not. What part of "the one true God" do you not understand?

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:43 PM
No I would not. What part of "the one true God" do you not understand?

In other words, you want taxpayer dollars to support teaching Christianity in public school. Fine for a Christian. What about non-Christian taxpayers and students? They get a say-so?

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:44 PM
Fine thing for a Christian to say. What about people who believe something different?

They beleived "something different" years ago when they sent their children to our schools, before we began to say God had no place in our schools. So to your question: What about people who beleive something different? They got what they wanted and now there is no place for God in our schools and now they complain about the wisdomless idiots we are cranking out.

RevLogos
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:46 PM
As to the earlier conversation on the public school system - God has been completely removed from the public school system and apart from Him, there is no true wisdom. And it doesn't matter at that point how much money you try to solve the problem with, if you teach the children while demanding that True Wisdom not be involved, you're going to crank out arrogant idiots, no matter how much they have "learned."

You'd think even without God they could at least teach kids to read. But despite spending more per child on education than any other state in the Midwest, two thirds of Wisconsin's 8th graders are not proficient at reading.

Where does all this money go? Regardless it doesn't take money to teach kids to read, so why is this happening?

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g

teddyv
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:46 PM
They beleived "something different" years ago when they sent their children to our schools, before we began to say God had no place in our schools. So to your question: What about people who beleive something different? They got what they wanted and now there is no place for God in our schools and now they complain about the wisdomless idiots we are cranking out.

Welcome to a pluralistic society.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:46 PM
They beleived "something different" years ago when they sent their children to our schools, before we began to say God had no place in our schools. So to your question: What about people who beleive something different? They got what they wanted and now there is no place for God in our schools and now they complain about the wisdomless idiots we are cranking out.And somehow, (as if by magic?) if there was a class on Christianity our public schools would be cranking out geniuses?

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:52 PM
In other words, you want taxpayer dollars to support teaching Christianity in public school. Fine for a Christian. What about non-Christian taxpayers and students? They get a say-so?

I think God might bless us again in our education "system" if we even just allowed the presentation of Him as.........one VIEW. As it stands, He is not even welcome at all. As you and V said: He has absolutely no place in our schools.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:52 PM
Welcome to a pluralistic society.
I doubt the hypnotoad approves.

"ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD!"

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:53 PM
You'd think even without God they could at least teach kids to read. But despite spending more per child on education than any other state in the Midwest, two thirds of Wisconsin's 8th graders are not proficient at reading.

Where does all this money go? Regardless it doesn't take money to teach kids to read, so why is this happening?

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g

Because there IS no wisdom apart from God.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:55 PM
I think God might bless us again in our education "system" if we even just allowed the presentation of Him as.........one VIEW.
How about the presentation of Islam as "one view"?
Or Buddhism?
Or atheism?

Does every faith get a shot? Or just the one that you approve of?

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:55 PM
And somehow, (as if by magic?) if there was a class on Christianity our public schools would be cranking out geniuses?

You call it magic, I call it the blessings of God.

Vhayes
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:56 PM
I think God might bless us again in our education "system" if we even just allowed the presentation of Him as.........one VIEW. As it stands, He is not even welcome at all. As you and V said: He has absolutely no place in our schools.

Nope. I never said that at all. Each child/teacher/administrator should be able to give thanks and ask for guidance. It's a private thing.

But schools are not the place to force feed anyone religion of any variety.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:57 PM
How about the presentation of Islam as "one view"?
Or Buddhism?
Or atheism?

Does every faith get a shot? Or just the one that you approve of?

The truth is, every faith EXCEPT mine and yours DOES get a shot....

RevLogos
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:57 PM
They beleived "something different" years ago when they sent their children to our schools, before we began to say God had no place in our schools. So to your question: What about people who beleive something different? They got what they wanted and now there is no place for God in our schools and now they complain about the wisdomless idiots we are cranking out.

The problem isn't so much that God has been removed from schools; the problem is the worldview that comes with it. Our kids are taught a worldview of materialism, post-modernism, that there is no truth or truth is what you make it to be. There is no right and wrong but what you "feel" is important. We are all just children of goo; there is no higher purpose for being.

Funny they want to teach kids not to bully other kids, but don't seem to be having much success. I wonder why?

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:58 PM
You call it magic, I call it the blessings of God.
Since you can not verify that every Christian private school does better than every public school or non-Christian private school, I will consider your point unproven.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:58 PM
Nope. I never said that at all. Each child/teacher/administrator should be able to give thanks and ask for guidance. It's a private thing.

But schools are not the place to force feed anyone religion of any variety.

I never advocated (and never will) "force feeding" God to anyone.

Vhayes
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:59 PM
You call it magic, I call it the blessings of God.

Test out some of the students of "Christian Schools" or academies. They are behind their peers in other private institutions.

And we need to get the thread back on track. Should we start another thread about this?

teddyv
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:59 PM
I doubt the hypnotoad approves.

"ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD!"

I just make you 'think' it's pluralistic society - keeps everyone docile.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 04:59 PM
The truth is, every faith EXCEPT mine and yours DOES get a shot....
Mmm not as I see it.

Vhayes
Feb 23rd 2011, 05:01 PM
I never advocated (and never will) "force feeding" God to anyone.

Well - what would you call a teacher praying to our Christian God (Who, by the way, is Who I know is real) and leading the class in prayer when her classroom is comprised of 75% Muslim students?

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 05:08 PM
Since you can not verify that every Christian private school does better than every public school or non-Christian private school, I will consider your point unproven.

No, I can't prove it. I don't have the statistics of comparison on how many who attend a "christian" school are churned out illiterate vs. how many who attend a public school are. But I know it is best to have freedom of thought and flooding of all ideas and views into the learning process to think out and form and inform ones own view.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 05:11 PM
The problem isn't so much that God has been removed from schools; the problem is the worldview that comes with it. Our kids are taught a worldview of materialism, post-modernism, that there is no truth or truth is what you make it to be. There is no right and wrong but what you "feel" is important. We are all just children of goo; there is no higher purpose for being.

Funny they want to teach kids not to bully other kids, but don't seem to be having much success. I wonder why?

I think the problem IS that God has been removed. It was just the first step really. If you forbid one "idea" you're gonna keep rolling with it.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 05:11 PM
No, I can't prove it. I don't have the statistics of comparison on how many who attend a "christian" school are churned out illiterate vs. how many who attend a public school are. Fair enough. So it's actually something you believe, not something you know.


But I know it is best to have freedom of thought and flooding of all ideas and views into the learning process to think out and form and inform ones own view
"All ideas" means presenting the viewpoints of every religion.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 05:23 PM
Well - what would you call a teacher praying to our Christian God (Who, by the way, is Who I know is real) and leading the class in prayer when her classroom is comprised of 75% Muslim students?

First of all, I want to say it is good to see you again V. And you too Fenris.
Secondly, I didn't say anything about teachers leading prayer in school. But now that you mention it, did you hear the news story a week or so ago where a teacher was teaching children a muslim prayer in a public school? To the best of my knowledge, that teacher is still employed. And do you remember hearing about the football team praying before a game a short while prior to that? To the best of my knowledge he is no longer employed. (Will have to go brush up on that to be sure.)

The problem is, as I said earlier, all "views" are allowed EXCEPT for mine and Fenris'. Atheists get to teach Darwin, so why can't christians teach their "view? It is suspicious any time something is being hidden or forbidden or jobs are threatened for presenting a certain "view."
Presenting all ideas is not forcefeeding someone. It is giving them all the ideas. It expands the mind, it doesn't hinder the mind.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 05:28 PM
Presenting all ideas is not forcefeeding someone. It is giving them all the ideas. It expands the mind, it doesn't hinder the mind.
OK, now here's the thing. This country is about 75% Christian or so. That means that presumably 3 out of 4 kids already know about Jesus. If you want to "expand their mind", you teach tem something they don't already know. A different religion. Get it?

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 05:38 PM
Fair enough. So it's actually something you believe, not something you know.

"All ideas" means presenting the viewpoints of every religion.

Yes. It is something I beleive, that there is no true wisdom apart from God. I have absolutely no idea what these "christian" schools you brought up teach or don't allow to be taught. I never brought them up and I never said I beleived they had a better "track record" vs. public schools. I jumped into the conversation regarding public schools.

Yes again. "All ideas" means "all ideas" and no "idea" being forbidden to teach, learn, discuss.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 05:44 PM
OK, now here's the thing. This country is about 75% Christian or so. That means that presumably 3 out of 4 kids already know about Jesus. If you want to "expand their mind", you teach tem something they don't already know. A different religion. Get it?

So which is it? Schools and universities should not forbid ANY ideas to be taught and discussed or they should only concentrate on....."minority" ideas? And what about the other 25% Fenris? You have just advocated that this "minority" be prohibited being presented with an "idea" THEY may never heard of.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 05:45 PM
Yes. It is something I beleive, that there is no true wisdom apart from God.Shrug. I don't know what you mean by "true wisdom". For certain the bible has important lessons that can be learned noplace else. However there is much wisdom in the world that is not in the bible as well. I suppose that God taught us the things we could learn no other way; the things we can figure out ourselves He left to us.


I have absolutely no idea what these "christian" schools you brought up teach or don't allow to be taught. I never brought them up and I never said I beleived they had a better "track record" vs. public schools. I jumped into the conversation regarding public schools.Well now I'm confused. Private schools mention God and it doesn't make them better, but if public schools mention God they will be better?


Yes again. "All ideas" means "all ideas" and no "idea" being forbidden to teach, learn, discuss.
Brave words.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 05:48 PM
So which is it? Schools and universities should not forbid ANY ideas to be taught and discussed or they should only concentrate on....."minority" ideas?The idea of going to school is to learn somthing new. That's what you've been saying.


And what about the other 25% Fenris? You have just advocated that this "minority" be prohibited being presented with an "idea" THEY may never heard of.You would be comfortable with your kids being taught about another religion at school? Being taught by an adherent of that religion who wants to make your kids believe as he does?

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 06:18 PM
Shrug. I don't know what you mean by "true wisdom". For certain the bible has important lessons that can be learned noplace else. However there is much wisdom in the world that is not in the bible as well. I suppose that God taught us the things we could learn no other way; the things we can figure out ourselves He left to us.
Well now I'm confused. Private schools mention God and it doesn't make them better, but if public schools mention God they will be better?


Brave words.

As to your first reply here, we'll go no further, so it wouldn't accomplish anything to state what I think "true wisdom" is. I think there is no wisdom apart from God, from a man knowing God and you think there is wisdom apart from God. I would just call it the worlds counterfeit of true wisdom, and you still wouldn't understand me and so that's that.

As to your second reply, you were saying earlier, "christian private schools" and now you are saying "private schools." And I still know nothing about either. I am assuming "christian private schools" definitely mention God but do not know if they forbid any other ideas from being taught. As to "private schools", I guess I would think there are some that are not "christian" but I still don't know if they do or do not allow all views and discussions.

It doesn't really need to be broken down to "mentioning God vs. not mentioning God." In my view, it is a case of forbidding some ideas vs. forbidding no ideas.

As to your third reply, you wouldn't call me brave if you saw me around a spider. I rebuke them with my shoes (that was a joke, have no idea what the whole "rebuking" thing is), but it is more of confidence than bravery. I am confident that I don't have to fear ANY idea being presented as long as ALL ideas are presented EQUALLY. I beleive the exact opposite and that fear needs to come when any idea is forbidden.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 06:26 PM
I am confident that I don't have to fear ANY idea being presented as long as ALL ideas are presented EQUALLY.

You're making the same mistake many Christians do. You believe that Christianity is so logical that when presented against other faiths one would have to conclude that it is correct.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:03 PM
The idea of going to school is to learn somthing new. That's what you've been saying.

You would be comfortable with your kids being taught about another religion at school? Being taught by an adherent of that religion who wants to make your kids believe as he does?

Yes, but you said that in THIS country, the people are 75% christian and so it should be assumed that 75% of the children have heard of God and so He should not be presented as an "idea" but the "other" ones he hasn't heard of should be taught. So then it should follow that in a country that is 75%+ muslim, mohammed should not be taught or in Israel, the Talmud should not be mentioned. They've already heard about the ideas that are prevalent in their country. But my question was: What about the other 25% you have been concerned about? They may not have heard of the idea we've removed from the classroom. If their parent works in Israel, maybe they've never heard of the Jewish religion or in America? Maybe they've never heard of God. So you have, by forbidding an "idea", withheld that idea from them.

The answer is not to forbid ideas, thoughts or views. The answer is to present all ideas equally. To not forbid any of them. That is not freedom of thought, freedom TO think, OR tolerance. That is not presenting all ideas to learn, inform, ponder, etc. It is quashing whatever ideas some arbitrary board (which doesn't include you or me) deems irrelevant, stupid, evil or obsolete.
Yes, I would be comfortable with my children being taught about another religion in school. As you said, school should be for learning about things you did not know. No, I would not be comfortable with my children being taught by someone who "wants them to beleive as he does." So I would not want the "idea" of Darwinism to be forbid, or democracy, or socialism, or conservative, or liberal. I also wouldn't want my children to be any "label" I have chosen - ESPECIALLY not christin, simply because it was a "label" that I am because it would mean he had not been presented with all views which he then thought and pondered to decide for himself.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:07 PM
You're making the same mistake many Christians do. You believe that Christianity is so logical that when presented against other faiths one would have to conclude that it is correct.

I certainly DO NOT believe that! It is so crazy there is absolutely NOTHING logical ABOUT it! It defies ALL common sense, as I'm sure you have seen!

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:10 PM
I certainly DO NOT believe that! It is so crazy there is absolutely NOTHING logical ABOUT it! It defies ALL common sense, as I'm sure you have seen!
Ok so public schools teach about Mohammed and let's say your kid wants to convert to Islam. You cool with that outcome?

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:18 PM
Ok so public schools teach about Mohammed and let's say your kid wants to convert to Islam. You cool with that outcome?

We've been gabbing here, so what do YOU think? Am I "cool with that?" Of course I'm not....duh!:rolleyes:
But does that mean I think the answer is to forbid certain ideas or thoughts or views from being learned about, discussed or thought? How is my child free if he isn't free to learn and think on his own, with his own mind?

Vhayes
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:19 PM
The breakdown is pretty basic:

Do you believe a "true" American is Christian.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:19 PM
Yes, but you said that in THIS country, the people are 75% christian and so it should be assumed that 75% of the children have heard of God and so He should not be presented as an "idea" but the "other" ones he hasn't heard of should be taught. So then it should follow that in a country that is 75%+ muslim, mohammed should not be taught or in Israel, the Talmud should not be mentioned. They've already heard about the ideas that are prevalent in their country. But my question was: What about the other 25% you have been concerned about? They may not have heard of the idea we've removed from the classroom. If their parent works in Israel, maybe they've never heard of the Jewish religion or in America? Maybe they've never heard of God. So you have, by forbidding an "idea", withheld that idea from them.Why is it so vitally important that kids learn about Christianity? And if it's that important, isn't it the parent's responsibility to make sure their kids learn, and not the taxpayer funded public school?


The answer is not to forbid ideas, thoughts or views. The answer is to present all ideas equally. To not forbid any of them. That is not freedom of thought, freedom TO think, OR tolerance. That is not presenting all ideas to learn, inform, ponder, etc. It is quashing whatever ideas some arbitrary board (which doesn't include you or me) deems irrelevant, stupid, evil or obsolete.I actually disagree. It's out job as parents to teach our kids that some ideas are better than others.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:20 PM
We've been gabbing here, so what do YOU think? Am I "cool with that?" Of course I'm not....duh!:rolleyes:

Why not avoid the situation by not having religion taught in public school?

Vhayes
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:21 PM
Why is it so vitally important that kids learn about Christianity? And if it's that important, isn't it the parent's responsibility to make sure their kids learn, and not the taxpayer funded public school?

I actually disagree. It's out job as parents to teach our kids that some ideas are better than others.

Have to spread some rep before I can give you more but I wanted to let you know you are correct in this statement - at least as far as I am concerned.

V


(Anyone hearing horses? Or is it just the proverbial Blue Moon?)

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:23 PM
(Anyone hearing horses? Or is it just the proverbial Blue Moon?)
Seems to happen from time to time.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:24 PM
Why is it so vitally important that kids learn about Christianity? And if it's that important, isn't it the parent's responsibility to make sure their kids learn, and not the taxpayer funded public school?

I actually disagree. It's out job as parents to teach our kids that some ideas are better than others.

I ask the reverse - why is it so vitally important that kids NOT be presented with it as a "worldview?"
I thought we were talking about public school and whether some ideas , views, worldviews should not be taught and be forbidden to be taught, learned or discussed. Of COURSE that is our job as parents....

Vhayes
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:26 PM
Seems to happen from time to time.

Yep - that's the reason I'm goin' with the Blue Moon option. :-)

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:27 PM
I ask the reverse - why is it so vitally important that kids NOT be presented with it as a "worldview?"Because people of other religions or no religion at all do not want their kids learning that. And since it's a public school, they have that right.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:36 PM
Why not avoid the situation by not having religion taught in public school?

Because then the next thing that happens is they want to avoid some other "situation" they don't like, or agree with, or that frightens them, and so another idea is forbidden. And then another situation suddenly appears and another idea or thought is forbidden in the classroom, and so on and so on. They teach children to put condoms on cucumbers to avoid the "situation" of teen pregnancy. So that goes directly against my religious beliefs which are no sex out of marriage. I'd rather have them learn about different customs and religions outside of their own country than THAT! The solution of forbidding thoughts, views, ideas, always ends badly for everyone. It goes along the lines of....well, first they forbid this thought and I didn't speak up because I agreed with them and it didn't really bother or affect me. Then they forbid that thought, and I didn't speak up because....

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:39 PM
Because people of other religions or no religion at all do not want their kids learning that. And since it's a public school, they have that right.

Well I don't want my children learning the cucumber thing or being taught about abortion or Darwinism and since it's a public school, don't I have a right?

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:43 PM
It goes along the lines of....well, first they forbid this thought and I didn't speak up because I agreed with them and it didn't really bother or affect me. Then they forbid that thought, and I didn't speak up because....

Uh really now. Wanting impressionable young children not taught certain things is not "censosrship".

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:45 PM
Well I don't want my children learning the cucumber thing or being taught about abortion or Darwinism and since it's a public school, don't I have a right?
I don't think the cucumber thing or abortion should be taught in public school either. Petition your lawmaker to have that stopped.

I don't believe in Darwinism, but it bothers me far less than having some other religion crammed down my kids throat.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:46 PM
Uh really now. Wanting impressionable young children not taught certain things is not "censosrship".

So then why do I have to submit to my impressionable young child being taught the cucumber thing, where the abortion clinic is and all about Billy has two mommies? Why do they forcefeed my child that?

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:49 PM
So then why do I have to submit to my impressionable young child being taught the cucumber thing, where the abortion clinic is and all about Billy has two mommies? Why do they forcefeed my child that?I don't think those things should be in public school either.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:51 PM
I don't think the cucumber thing or abortion should be taught in public school either. Petition your lawmaker to have that stopped.

I don't believe in Darwinism, but it bothers me far less than having some other religion crammed down my kids throat.

We disagree on which is worse. I think it is worse to be taught there IS no God with Darwinism than to be taught that many people believe in His existence. I think it is worse to teach He doesn't exist at all than to teach the different views people hold of Him. One has taken away all hope and the other leads to thoughts of: maybe He does exist....

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:56 PM
We disagree on which is worse. I think it is worse to be taught there IS no God with Darwinism than to be taught that many people believe in His existence
Shrug. Darwinism is easier for a believer to refute.

You do realize I am not Christian, right?

RabbiKnife
Feb 23rd 2011, 07:58 PM
I may have voices in my head and be schizo, but reading two threads at once is driving me nutz.

notuptome
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:01 PM
You do realize I am not Christian, right?
We really gotta fix that. wink wink

For the cause of Christ
Roger

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:08 PM
I don't think those things should be in public school either.

But they are. So they are allowed to teach Darwinism that says God does not exist but they aren't allowed to teach that some people think He does exist. So they may teach my child that God ABSOLUTELY does not exist but not that some people actually think He MAY.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:08 PM
I may have voices in my head and be schizo, but reading two threads at once is driving me nutz.
Use your magical mod-powers.

make it so!

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:09 PM
We really gotta fix that. wink wink

I like the kitty cat.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:10 PM
But they are.
OK, so because the public school system is doing one thing wrong, it should do something else that is also wrong? Does not compute.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:17 PM
Shrug. Darwinism is easier for a believer to refute.

You do realize I am not Christian, right?

Darwinism is easier for a believer to refute than what? I am not talking about refuting it. I don't want my child to be forbidden learning the worldview of Darwinism any more than I want him to be forbidden learning the view of God's existence. If He is going to be taught with Darwinism that atheism is the correct view, then I want him to at least be presented with all of the other views. By forbidding the one worldview you are attempting to sway him toward the other instead of teaching him to think for himself. I wouldn't say it is dumbing down my child so much as it is trying to nudge his thought the way you (don't mean you personally Fenris) want him to believe.
Yes, I do realize that. We have had discussions before under my previous name in here:paintdiva.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:21 PM
Darwinism is easier for a believer to refute than what? I am not talking about refuting it. I don't want my child to be forbidden learning the worldview of Darwinism any more than I want him to be forbidden learning the view of God's existence. If He is going to be taught with Darwinism that atheism is the correct view, then I want him to at least be presented with all of the other views. By forbidding the one worldview you are attempting to sway him toward the other instead of teaching him to think for himself. I wouldn't say it is dumbing down my child so much as it is trying to nudge his thought the way you (don't mean you personally Fenris) want him to believe.
You're entitled to your opinion I suppose. I do not want my kids learning comparative theology and I don't want my tax dollars going towards teaching it either.


Yes, I do realize that. We have had discussions before under my previous name in here:paintdiva.Ohhh that's who you are.....

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:21 PM
OK, so because the public school system is doing one thing wrong, it should do something else that is also wrong? Does not compute.

No. I'm not advocating removing the views I do not like or agree with. That's my whole point. I'm advocating not forbidding learning ANY view.

RabbiKnife
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:21 PM
TAKE THE PUBLIC SCHOOL STUFF TO EITHER OF THE TWO NEW THREADS THAT V AND I CREATED FOR YOU...

THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED SUPPORT>

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:23 PM
TAKE THE PUBLIC SCHOOL STUFF TO EITHER OF THE TWO NEW THREADS THAT V AND I CREATED FOR YOU...

THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED SUPPORT>
It's MOD MAGIC!!!!

Vhayes
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:23 PM
I deleted one - so now there is but one choice. Does that technically mean there is no choice at all?

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:23 PM
You're entitled to your opinion I suppose. I do not want my kids learning comparative theology and I don't want my tax dollars going towards teaching it either.
Ohhh that's who you are.....

Sorry. I never even thought about it. I wondered why you and V didn't holler back when I said it was nice to see you guys again!

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:23 PM
No. I'm not advocating removing the views I do not like or agree with. That's my whole point. I'm advocating not forbidding learning ANY view.
Well I am. There are some things school age kids do not need to know.

RabbiKnife
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:24 PM
It is Calvinism in its purest form.

They either have to post there or they do not have the ability to post there...

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:24 PM
Sorry. I never even thought about it. I wondered why you and V didn't holler back when I said it was nice to see you guys again!
Yeah and I was thinking like who on earth is this?:hmm:

Vhayes
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:27 PM
Yeah and I was thinking like who on earth is this?:hmm:

Huh? I was busy moving posts - what did I miss?

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:30 PM
Huh? I was busy moving posts - what did I miss?

awestruckchild = paintdiva

Vhayes
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:31 PM
awestruckchild = paintdiva

Ohhhhhh - NOW I see :-)

Hi. Again :-)

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:33 PM
Well I am. There are some things school age kids do not need to know.

Yeah, I hear you. I agree. But they ARE learning those things - the nonexistence of God, clinic locations, cucumbers 101, so the idea that some think God MAY exist at least presents the view that some think those things are not good.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:38 PM
Yeah, I hear you. I agree. But they ARE learning those things - the nonexistence of God, clinic locations, cucumbers 101, so the idea that some think God MAY exist at least presents the view that some think those things are not good.
Again, that's the parent's job.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:49 PM
Again, that's the parent's job.

Yeah, but then so is birth control or no birth control, abortion or no abortion. I think kids need to have.....hope. And I think some of them don't. And I think some of them don't have any firm idea of right or wrong. And not even so much because even the mere idea that some think He may exist has been totally removed from school, but because the idea or worldview that is left is that one day you die anyway and then it's absolutely lights out, over and done, so if your life is presently pretty miserable (which is kind of the definition of adolescence) it really would be best to just end it a little earlier. What does it matter?

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 08:54 PM
Yeah, but then so is birth control or no birth control, abortion or no abortion.I already ageeed with you, those things should not be in school. But I don't think Christianity is the proper counter.


I think kids need to have.....hope. And I think some of them don't. And I think some of them don't have any firm idea of right or wrong.Parent's job. if the parents fail, it's not the school's job to pick up the slack, not that it could anyway.


And not even so much because even the mere idea that some think He may exist has been totally removed from school, but because the idea or worldview that is left is that one day you die anyway and then it's absolutely lights out, over and done, so if your life is presently pretty miserable (which is kind of the definition of adolescence) it really would be best to just end it a little earlier.
I think many teens are unhappy under any circumstances. In any case, their home enviornment should be one with God in it.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 09:15 PM
I already ageeed with you, those things should not be in school. But I don't think Christianity is the proper counter.
Parent's job. if the parents fail, it's not the school's job to pick up the slack, not that it could anyway.


I think many teens are unhappy under any circumstances. In any case, their home enviornment should be one with God in it.

I'm actually not advocating christianity as a counter. The counter to what they are teaching would not be christianity but rather the worldview that there is a God who exists to counter the teaching that He does not exist. I'm not really thinking along the lines of a comparative religion class so much as : Some, like Darwin, believe God does not exist but others do.

It isn't a matter, to me, of the schools "picking up the slack." I agree that these things are the parents job, not the schools, but the schools disagree with me on that and don't care what I think. It's that whole Al Gore-ish type thing they teach - like....you know more than your parents sometimes, because YOU know that abortion is perfectly fine and that sex out of wedlock is okay and natural and that God doesn't exist....

In removing any idea of the possibility of God's existence as a worldview, they then teach only Darwinism, which teaches there is NO POSSIBILITY AT ALL that He exists. I don't want christianity to be the counter because it really wouldn't be the counter. The counter would be the worldview that some people THINK God exists.

Fenris
Feb 23rd 2011, 10:26 PM
Life is about choices. Sometimes we have to do difficult things. I send my kids to private school because I want them to get the right message. What I pay in tuition could buy me a new car every year.

I think it's worth it.

BrckBrln
Feb 23rd 2011, 10:38 PM
In removing any idea of the possibility of God's existence as a worldview, they then teach only Darwinism, which teaches there is NO POSSIBILITY AT ALL that He exists.

Well that's not true at all.

awestruckchild
Feb 23rd 2011, 10:58 PM
Life is about choices. Sometimes we have to do difficult things. I send my kids to private school because I want them to get the right message. What I pay in tuition could buy me a new car every year.

I think it's worth it.

But why would you send them there? You can't prove they are getting any better education there (per your own words.)

Fenris
Feb 24th 2011, 01:26 PM
But why would you send them there? You can't prove they are getting any better education there (per your own words.)
It's not about getting a "better" education. It's about being taught the things that I want them to learn.

Besides I've seen my kids standardized test scores. They're very very good.

awestruckchild
Feb 24th 2011, 02:05 PM
Since you can not verify that every Christian private school does better than every public school or non-Christian private school, I will consider your point unproven.

So what is it about the private school that has been better. It seems that you personally DO have proof of what you here said cannot be proven...

Fenris
Feb 24th 2011, 02:07 PM
So what is it about the private school that has been better.
It's "better" that my kids get a religious education.

notuptome
Feb 24th 2011, 04:56 PM
It's "better" that my kids get a religious education.
A man is charged before God to tend to his childrens education.

Prov 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.

Trust God to give good instruction.

I could never subject my children to secular humanism as taught in the state run indoctrination system.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

awestruckchild
Mar 2nd 2011, 01:37 PM
That is one handsome tabby cat Roger!
I seem to see a move toward disallowing homeschooling by law and think private schools will go after that. If this happens, it won't matter if you can or cannot afford a private school - you will either break the law of "compulsory" public school education or you will.........I don't know, hide your kids?

Fenris
Mar 2nd 2011, 01:40 PM
I seem to see a move toward disallowing homeschooling by law and think private schools will go after that.
I don't see a move for either of these things.

awestruckchild
Mar 2nd 2011, 02:04 PM
I don't see a move for either of these things.

Good morning Fenris
I do.
And my sister who homeschools does.
It always starts with California. And then the rest of the states follow. There (in Calif) they are attempting to disallow homeschooling unless the parent has an actual teaching degree. I think it kills them that there is a child anywhere who they cannot indoctrinate into atheism. They think parents who teach their children there is a God are harming the children and raising them up to be bigoted idiots.

Fenris
Mar 2nd 2011, 02:07 PM
Good morning FenrisMorning.


I do.
And my sister who homeschools does.Well, there you go. That's all the evidence I need.


It always starts with California. And then the rest of the states follow. There (in Calif) they are attempting to disallow homeschooling unless the parent has an actual teaching degree. I think it kills them that there is a child anywhere who they cannot indoctrinate into atheism. Or maybe they're afraid that if a parent doesn't have a teaching degree, the kids will get a substandard education.


They think parents who teach their children there is a God are harming the children and raising them up to be bigoted idiots.
I try not to assume people's motives.

awestruckchild
Mar 2nd 2011, 02:18 PM
Morning.
Well, there you go. That's all the evidence I need.

Or maybe they're afraid that if a parent doesn't have a teaching degree, the kids will get a substandard education.

I try not to assume people's motives.

I had to laugh at that one. Worrying that the parents, who by the way, have to pass certain tests to be allowed to homeschool, will give a more substandard education than the huge bueracracy of the public school system! It would be harder to slide by a parent barely being able to read than by a teacher! And yeah, they think it is a substandard education to inject God into it and to fail to teach children about abortion, homosexuality and cucumbers.

Fenris
Mar 2nd 2011, 02:21 PM
I had to laugh at that one. Worrying that the parents, who by the way, have to pass certain tests to be allowed to homeschool, will give a more substandard education than the huge bueracracy of the public school system!
Why, yes. At least we know who the teachers are and what their skillset is. And they are accountable for their student's grades. Laugh all you like, I understand the concept here. Not saying I agree with it, or that it's going to lead to a ban on homsechooling or private schools. But I see where they are coming from.

awestruckchild
Mar 2nd 2011, 03:52 PM
Okay. It's been good talking to you again Fenris.

Fenris
Mar 2nd 2011, 04:00 PM
The pleasure was all mine.