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catlover
Feb 25th 2011, 04:27 PM
For some reason, I never realized that God actually blessed Ishmael but I read that He did. Don't have my Bible with me to put scripture reference. Anywho ---- this has really confused my thinking because I've always thought all the problems in the Middle East stem from Isaac and Ishmael. Why would God do this if Israel is His chosen? And I'm probably not asking my question the right way but what do you think?

Anyone??

episkopos
Feb 25th 2011, 04:37 PM
God blesses because of His character.

Matthew 5:45-"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 04:44 PM
Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God: 'Oh that Ishmael might live before Thee!' 19 And God said: 'Nay, but Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.


He was blessed because he too was Abraham's son.

episkopos
Feb 25th 2011, 04:46 PM
Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God: 'Oh that Ishmael might live before Thee!' 19 And God said: 'Nay, but Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.


He was blessed because he too was Abraham's son.

...THAT TOO! :)

keck553
Feb 25th 2011, 04:53 PM
Any promise given to Ishmael was through Abraham's blessing. Ishamel was raised in Abraham's house and circumcised. No doubt he knew Abraham's God and His ways. Yet the first thing Hagar does is find pagan wives for Ishmael. Also Note that Hagar was not blessed, but Sarah was blessed, also that ALL of Israel came from her womb exclusively. Also note that Sari is the only woman in the Bible whom God honered withi a new name - adding a letter of His own Name (hey) to hers.

catlover
Feb 25th 2011, 04:55 PM
Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God: 'Oh that Ishmael might live before Thee!' 19 And God said: 'Nay, but Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.


He was blessed because he too was Abraham's son.

Ok, Fenris, this is why I'm confused. Because didn't God say that the descendants of Ishmael would be constantly against the descendants of Isaac. I'm sure I'm thinking about this too much.

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 04:56 PM
...THAT TOO! :)
Which would mean that God takes notice of physical progeny.

keck553
Feb 25th 2011, 04:57 PM
Ok, Fenris, this is why I'm confused. Because didn't God say that the descendants of Ishmael would be constantly against the descendants of Isaac. I'm sure I'm thinking about this too much.

Taking short cuts around God's will always have consequences.

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 04:58 PM
Ok, Fenris, this is why I'm confused. Because didn't God say that the descendants of Ishmael would be constantly against the descendants of Isaac. I'm sure I'm thinking about this too much.

Genesis 16:11 11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her: 'Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son; and thou shalt call his name Ishmael, because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren.

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 04:58 PM
Taking short cuts around God's will always have consequences.

Never seen that way by Jews.

keck553
Feb 25th 2011, 05:01 PM
Never seen that way by Jews.

That's alright. I don't agree with Rashi's characterizations of Sarah either.

David Taylor
Feb 25th 2011, 05:04 PM
For some reason, I never realized that God actually blessed Ishmael but I read that He did. Don't have my Bible with me to put scripture reference. Anywho ---- this has really confused my thinking because I've always thought all the problems in the Middle East stem from Isaac and Ishmael. Why would God do this if Israel is His chosen? And I'm probably not asking my question the right way but what do you think?

Anyone??

Israel was chosen in the past, to bring Messiah to the world in fulfilling the promises and prophecies.

Beyond that, each person is blessed or cursed by God according to their own responsibility, and acceptance/rejection of Him. It is a matter of faithfulness; not of lineages, pedigrees, and DNA.

The problems in the middle east are not because of lineages, rather, they are because of wicked sinfulness running amuck in peoples lives. Those who yeild to the Lord and faithfully follow Him, are God's chosen now.

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 05:05 PM
That's alright. I don't agree with Rashi's characterizations of Sarah either.

I don't get it. Rachel and Leah give their handmaidens to Jacob, and round out the 12 tribes. Sarah gives her handmaiden to Abraham, and they're "aking short cuts around God's will""? Tell me the difference, because I can't see it.

keck553
Feb 25th 2011, 05:11 PM
I don't get it. Rachel and Leah give their handmaidens to Jacob, and round out the 12 tribes. Sarah gives her handmaiden to Abraham, and they're "aking short cuts around God's will""? Tell me the difference, because I can't see it.

Different story, different circumstance. Though I can understand why you bless your daughters to be like Leah, I'll never figure out why you bless your daughters to be like Rachel, who had some rather bad habits. Is it because she bore Yosef?

On edit...I don't understand why you bless your daughters like Leah either. She wasn't loved by her husband.

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 05:14 PM
Different story, different circumstance.And what was different?


Though I can understand why you bless your daughters to be like Leah, I'll never figure out why you bless your daughters to be like Rachel, who had some rather bad habits. Are we reading the same bible here?

Neanias
Feb 25th 2011, 05:17 PM
Israel was chosen in the past, to bring Messiah to the world in fulfilling the promises and prophecies.

Beyond that, each person is blessed or cursed by God according to their own responsibility, and acceptance/rejection of Him. It is a matter of faithfulness; not of lineages, pedigrees, and DNA.

The problems in the middle east are not because of lineages, rather, they are because of wicked sinfulness running amuck in peoples lives. Those who yeild to the Lord and faithfully follow Him, are God's chosen now.

Amen!

We will be judged according to our response to the light that is given us. A good example of this is the 'Queen of the South' who came to inquire of the wisdom of Solomon. She reacted positively to the light given to her...

I like that you say it's a matter of faithfulness... The greek word for faith is also the word for faithfulness! :)

keck553
Feb 25th 2011, 05:17 PM
And what was different?

Sarah was barren all her life, not to mention her age. Not much value in that culture to be barren. Makes more sense to hand over an Egyptian teenager to 90 year old man, right?

Only by the hand of God (miricle/sign) could Sarah bear a child. Not so with the others. Ironic how we think we think "gold and silver" will solve our shortcomings. In ACTS, it wasn't gold and silver that blessed the beggar at the Temple gate.


Are we reading the same bible here?

Yep. pretty sure about that. Do you think hiding idols is a good thing?

episkopos
Feb 25th 2011, 05:19 PM
Which would mean that God takes notice of physical progeny.

He does! But that is NOT the deciding factor. They get the first shot as it were. Think Esau! ;)

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 05:25 PM
Only by a work of God could Sarah bear a child. Not so with the others.How do we know that? There were no infertile women int he world, other than Sarah?

I'm sorry, this seems to be a blatant case of theology being used to interpret the bible.



Yep. pretty sure about that. Do you think hiding idols is a good thing?Gee, yeah, I do actually. She was trying to get her father to stop worshiping them. How exactly is this a bad thing?

Rachel alone of any person in the bible doesn't debate with God.

Jeremiah 31:14. So says the Lord: A voice is heard on high, lamentation, bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, she refuses to be comforted for her children for they are not. 15. So says the Lord: Refrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for there is reward for your work, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy.

She asks and she gets. This implies her to be a person of great merit, not someone of bad character.

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 05:26 PM
He does! But that is NOT the deciding factor.
Uhmmmm you only have the NT to back you up on that.

keck553
Feb 25th 2011, 05:30 PM
How do we know that? There were no infertile women int he world, other than Sarah?
I'm sorry, this seems to be a blatant case of theology being used to interpret the bible.

The Bible tells us Sarah was barren. And I was referring to your context about Leah and Rachel, who were both fertile, not women in general.


Gee, yeah, I do actually. She was trying to get her father to stop worshiping them. How exactly is this a bad thing?

Rachel alone of any person in the bible doesn't debate with God.

Jeremiah 31:14. So says the Lord: A voice is heard on high, lamentation, bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, she refuses to be comforted for her children for they are not. 15. So says the Lord: Refrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for there is reward for your work, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy.

She asks and she gets. This implies her to be a person of great merit, not someone of bad character.
You're correct about Rachel. My startment was in error. Thank you!

episkopos
Feb 25th 2011, 05:34 PM
Uhmmmm you only have the NT to back you up on that.

Thank you! Would you be willing to testify to that for me before God? :)

I mentioned Esau. Esav in the Hebrew. Was he not an OT figure that was rejected although a son of Isaac?

What of the 10 northern tribes of Israel? Were these not rejected and scattered throughout all the nations?

How many Israelites that left Egypt survived to see the promised land? Was it not 2? Were the rest not rejected?

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 05:39 PM
The Bible tells us Sarah was barren.

Ah. And they had a doctor's diagnosis? How was her barren-ness any different from Rachel's?

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 05:43 PM
Thank you! Would you be willing to testify to that for me before God? :)Sure, why not?


I mentioned Esau. Esav in the Hebrew. Was he not an OT figure that was rejected although a son of Isaac?Esau was still a Hebrew. And he was still the recipient of blessings by his lineage, blessings that were passed on to his descendants.


What of the 10 northern tribes of Israel? Were these not rejected and scattered throughout all the nations?And, according to prophecy, they will be gathered back. Simply by virtue of their ancestry.


How many Israelites that left Egypt survived to see the promised land? Was it not 2? Were the rest not rejected?And their kids? Did they get to see the promised land?

I know as a Christan you have to believe that lineage counts for either not much or nothing at all. But I don't get that from the bible at all.

keck553
Feb 25th 2011, 05:44 PM
Ah. And they had a doctor's diagnosis?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe because I beleive what the Bible tells me?

I just betcha David haMelek would take God's Word over a Doctor's diagnosis any day. Well at least for judgement.

episkopos
Feb 25th 2011, 05:54 PM
Sure, why not?

Yipee! :)


Esau was still a Hebrew. And he was still the recipient of blessings by his lineage, blessings that were passed on to his descendants.


And they as well will ALSO be judged by their actions.... not their lineage. You see all men are judged by their actions. The OT follows a certain people and their adventures with God. But this is to show all men what God is doing. He does not restrict His actions to one people any more than a sitcom family does not have a monopoly on happy endings.



And, according to prophecy, they will be gathered back. Simply by virtue of their ancestry.
And their kids? Did they get to see the promised land?

Yes, the story continued. But as the Jews say...."not for what we've done" but through God's mercy. But these too will not be spared if they follow in the father's footsteps.

It is we who are of the new circumcision that are the promised return of the Israel that was sifted among the nations.


I know as a Christan you have to believe that lineage counts for either not much or nothing at all. But I don't get that from the bible at all.

The Jews will always have first dibs on a place in the kingdom. That is the promise. But God will not abide a rebellious and unbelieving people. That is where the Jews make a fatal mistake. God doesn't respect persons neither does He have favourites.

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 05:55 PM
Oh, I don't know. Maybe because I beleive what the Bible tells me?

I just betcha David haMelek would take God's Word over a Doctor's diagnosis any day. Well at least for judgement.
I don't see anyplace in the bible that Abraham or Sarah are rebuked for taking Hagar as a conucbine.

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 06:01 PM
And they as well will ALSO be judged by their actions.... not their lineage. Amos says otherwise. 3:2 "You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your sins."

God holds the Jews to a higher standard, because of their lineage. Heh.



Yes, the story continued. But as the Jews say...."not for what we've done" but through God's mercy. But these too will not be spared if they follow in the father's footsteps.Not in my bible.


It is we who are of the new circumcision that are the promised return of the Israel that was sifted among the nations.
Not in my bible.



The Jews will always have first dibs on a place in the kingdom. That is the promise. But God will not abide a rebellious and unbelieving people. That is where the Jews make a fatal mistake. God doesn't respect persons neither does He have favourites.Ah. But does He keep His promises?

keck553
Feb 25th 2011, 06:11 PM
I don't see anyplace in the bible that Abraham or Sarah are rebuked for taking Hagar as a conucbine.

Me neither. Yet I do see consequences.

Fenris
Feb 25th 2011, 06:14 PM
Me neither. Then it's a giant assumption to make. God has no problem voicing His displeasure, and He declines to do so here.



Yet I do see consequences.What consequences?

tango
Feb 25th 2011, 06:40 PM
Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God: 'Oh that Ishmael might live before Thee!' 19 And God said: 'Nay, but Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.


He was blessed because he too was Abraham's son.

I was going to do something like find that passage in Genesis, oh, about chapter 17 or so, quote it and say something similar. But you beat me to it :)

keck553
Feb 25th 2011, 08:36 PM
Then it's a giant assumption to make. God has no problem voicing His displeasure, and He declines to do so here.


What consequences?

oh, you know "Ishmael will be a wild ass of a man, thorn in your side, etc, etc.

And of course I have to keep the words of my Master close to my heart, so we depart theologically at this point, and I understand that. Jesus taught that God tolerated such things, but in the case of divorce He referred to Genesis 2:24 as God's intent. Certainly the Bible does not tell us of God rebuking someone for divoricing his wife for burning his dinner, but we all too well know. even these days the consequences of 'no fault' divorces. What makes you think anything changes? Tell me of one good relationship in the Bible that included multiple wives.

Oh, and before the sun goes down....

Shabbat Shalom!

Blessed is the Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who brings forth bread from the earth. Amen.

episkopos
Feb 25th 2011, 08:46 PM
Amos says otherwise. 3:2 "You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your sins."

God holds the Jews to a higher standard, because of their lineage. Heh.


Not in my bible.




Not in my bible.


Ah. But does He keep His promises?


Lo lanou hashem lo lanou (*Psalm 115:1)