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EJae
Mar 1st 2011, 05:10 AM
Am I understanding correctly from Romans 4:3 and 5 that God considers us something we are not? That God counts something to be true that is not?

Isaiah2
Mar 1st 2011, 08:30 AM
I don't quite understand your question...

Elect servants that WERE sent by God Himself (by His voice speaking directly to them), separating them from the group, and sending them to go to say and to do whatsoever He commanded them. That is what the elect servants of God did, thereby they were working for a reward.

Any other person professing to be a believer manifests BELIEF in Godís Word by resting in it, not desiring to do work on Godís behalf. This is what the Pharisees were guilty ofÖ they had separated themselves unto the law of God. It is God alone that will cause man to approach unto Him, not the other way around! (This is a curse and an evil disease amongst the nations today, and why there are so many deceiving and being deceived.)

Romans 4: 1-5
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abrahamís work (belief) is the The Work of any person today that claims to be a TRUE believer...

John 6:24-29
When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Knowing that we shall all be judged according to "our works," and since the bible says that lastly, He has SPOKEN through HIS SON (Hebrews 1), it is a good idea to believe God's Word and to rest in that belief! Christ is the LORD of the Sabbath after all!

Pray for wisdom!

BroRog
Mar 2nd 2011, 12:00 AM
Am I understanding correctly from Romans 4:3 and 5 that God considers us something we are not? That God counts something to be true that is not?No, Paul is not saying that. Rather, Paul has coined a Greek word "dikaiosune" to refer to "being right with God". He is saying that if someone has faith like Abraham did, God will declare that person to be "right with me." He also says that if a man attempts to merit this declaration through the ritual practices of the Jewish religion, God will not declare that man "right with me."

EJae
Mar 2nd 2011, 03:17 AM
I don't quite understand your question...Thank you Isaiah2. I think my question is so simple you missed it. Abraham was not, as BroRog said, "right with God". God counted Abraham to be something he was not. He did this based on Abraham's faith not on Abraham's works. If it were based on works Abraham would not have been "right with God". I know this is very basic but would you say this is correct?

EJae
Mar 2nd 2011, 03:25 AM
No, Paul is not saying that.Thank you BroRog. Do you think Abraham was "right with God" before God counted Abraham "right with God"?



Rather, Paul has coined a Greek word "dikaiosune" to refer to "being right with God". He is saying that if someone has faith like Abraham did, God will declare that person to be "right with me." He also says that if a man attempts to merit this declaration through the ritual practices of the Jewish religion, God will not declare that man "right with me."Sounds good.

Isaiah2
Mar 2nd 2011, 06:35 AM
Thank you Isaiah2. I think my question is so simple you missed it. Abraham was not, as BroRog said, "right with God". God counted Abraham to be something he was not. He did this based on Abraham's faith not on Abraham's works. If it were based on works Abraham would not have been "right with God". I know this is very basic but would you say this is correct?


It was grace on the Lord’s part, and believing in the Lord Who gave the grace on Abraham’s part. Faith is NOT an act, but a PERSON! That Person is Christ!

Gen 15:6
And he believed IN the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rom 4:4-5
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of GRACE, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on HIM THAT JUSTIFIETH the ungodly, HIS FAITH is counted for righteousness.

Heb 11:1
Now faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11:6&version=KJV)
But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that HE IS, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.


Pray for wisdom!

BroRog
Mar 2nd 2011, 05:31 PM
Thank you BroRog. Do you think Abraham was "right with God" before God counted Abraham "right with God"?


Sounds good.I'm not sure about the timing. What Genesis reveals are two things: 1) Abraham believed God to which God declared him "right with me", and 2) Abraham acted in the light of his faith, to which God again said that he was "right with me."

EJae
Mar 3rd 2011, 02:42 AM
The point is, because of sin he was not right with God, but God counted him righteous simply because he believed what God said. He was not righteous as God is righteous, but God considered him to be, because of his faith. What does "logizomai" tell us to count as true in Romans 6:11?

EJae
Mar 4th 2011, 01:34 AM
I'm not sure about the timing. What Genesis reveals are two things: 1) Abraham believed God to which God declared him "right with me", and 2) Abraham acted in the light of his faith, to which God again said that he was "right with me."Correct. James 2 says the scripture that said he was counted righteous when he first believed was fulfilled when he walked the talk. So, since we learned from Abraham something pertaining to the flesh, and since it is written not just "for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." How does a Christian act in light of his faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and follow in the steps of Abraham?