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Redeemed by Grace
Mar 4th 2011, 01:50 PM
What are your thoughts toward Christians and civil demonstrations?

As the news reports within states today are showing that states within the USA are struggling with their budgets, and many states either have to change the way they compensate it’s workers or draw limits to its spending for the tasks being preformed or shut some services down, or lay off many workers, and this post is not to discuss how this or why this has happened, but to ask the reader:

…do you think a Christian who would also be a state worker - should be actively protesting against the state government?

And in light of your reply... would 1 Peter 2: 13 have any bearing?

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

RabbiKnife
Mar 4th 2011, 01:53 PM
Certainly. In the USA, WE...the PEOPLE...are the government. In the USA, the PEOPLE are the KING, so yes, Christians are certainly permitted to engage in the political process.

We are a people that has a government, not a government that rules over people.

Our structure permits and even requires dissent and political activism.


As to whether a Christian who is also a state worker should be protesting against the state government, in my opinion, the state workers should be the one's protesting against the abuses of their union leaders and should be servants, not rulers.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 4th 2011, 01:56 PM
Certainly. In the USA, WE...the PEOPLE...are the government. In the USA, the PEOPLE are the KING, so yes, Christians are certainly permitted to engage in the political process.

We are a people that has a government, not a government that rules over people.

Our structure permits and even requires dissent and political activism.


As to whether a Christian who is also a state worker should be protesting against the state government, in my opinion, the state workers should be the one's protesting against the abuses of their union leaders and should be servants, not rulers.

Wow. RK... this is the fastest reply I've ever experienced.... :)

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 4th 2011, 02:37 PM
Certainly. In the USA, WE...the PEOPLE...are the government. In the USA, the PEOPLE are the KING, so yes, Christians are certainly permitted to engage in the political process.

We are a people that has a government, not a government that rules over people.

Our structure permits and even requires dissent and political activism.


As to whether a Christian who is also a state worker should be protesting against the state government, in my opinion, the state workers should be the one's protesting against the abuses of their union leaders and should be servants, not rulers.

So let me spice this up a bit... so you are an advocate for the US constitution with it's Bill of Rights OVER the bible's statement to submit? And know that I'm not dissing the US Constitution, all I'm asking is which authority has presidence? And you are stating the Constitution, right?

RabbiKnife
Mar 4th 2011, 02:40 PM
So let me spice this up a bit... so you are an advocate for the US constitution with it's Bill of Rights OVER the bible's statement to submit? And know that I'm not dissing the US Constitution, all I'm asking is which authority has presidence? And you are stating the Constitution, right?

No. You are not connecting the dots.

The US Constitution is a written document that demonstrates that God has established us, the PEOPLE, as the government. We do not have a king. We govern ourselves, as God has established. Therefore, political activism and dissent is inherently a part of the manner in which God has ordained us to govern ourselves. We submit to ourselves in self-governance, and sometimes that means opposing the policies enacted by the representatives that we elect to represent us.

WSGAC
Mar 4th 2011, 02:51 PM
Didn't Paul protest that his rights as a Roman citizen were denied? Wasn't he protesting by standing up for his rights as a Roman citizen?

Acts 16:37 "But Paul said to the officers: 'They beat us publicly without a trial, even though we are Roman citizens, and threw us into prison. And now do they want to get rid of us quietly? No! Let them come themselves and escort us out.' ”

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 4th 2011, 03:17 PM
No. You are not connecting the dots.

The US Constitution is a written document that demonstrates that God has established us, the PEOPLE, as the government. We do not have a king. We govern ourselves, as God has established. Therefore, political activism and dissent is inherently a part of the manner in which God has ordained us to govern ourselves. We submit to ourselves in self-governance, and sometimes that means opposing the policies enacted by the representatives that we elect to represent us.

Thanks RK... To that end then, it would so appropriate for you to exercise your constitutional right and don't forget to vote. :)

RabbiKnife
Mar 4th 2011, 03:24 PM
Thanks RK... To that end then, it would so appropriate for you to exercise your constitutional right and don't forget to vote. :)

I always do..........

episkopos
Mar 4th 2011, 03:32 PM
Certainly. In the USA, WE...the PEOPLE...are the government. In the USA, the PEOPLE are the KING, so yes, Christians are certainly permitted to engage in the political process.

We are a people that has a government, not a government that rules over people.

Our structure permits and even requires dissent and political activism.


As to whether a Christian who is also a state worker should be protesting against the state government, in my opinion, the state workers should be the one's protesting against the abuses of their union leaders and should be servants, not rulers.


Have you found a loophole in the way of the kingdom?

Does the writing of the words "under God" in the constitution make America unique in the world as a "Christian" nation? Does God rule differently over America than over other countries?

The United States was founded like many other countries...by rebelling against the parent state through a bloody insurrection.

Am I missing something here?

I thought the tongues of fire descending on the gathered believers happened in Jerusalem not in Washington.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 4th 2011, 03:36 PM
Didn't Paul protest that his rights as a Roman citizen were denied? Wasn't he protesting by standing up for his rights as a Roman citizen?

Acts 16:37 "But Paul said to the officers: 'They beat us publicly without a trial, even though we are Roman citizens, and threw us into prison. And now do they want to get rid of us quietly? No! Let them come themselves and escort us out.' ”

But wasn't he already in prison before his 'protest' of how he would be released came? I'd think there is a bit of a difference between Paul and folks today who are demonstrating for, 'my rights, my rights' and then obstruct the flow of government or public common good, and then be arrested for it, than for Paul to be arrested, not for protesting, but for witnessing... which isn't a civil demonstration. Peter writes submit yourself for the Lord's sake to every human institution.... So with that as backdrop, have you voted yet?

episkopos
Mar 4th 2011, 03:40 PM
The apostles and early believers performed many civil demonstrations of power. We need these. :)

Amos_with_goats
Mar 4th 2011, 03:48 PM
Not desiring to de-rail the thread, I would say that it is not only CAN a believer participate... but we are instructed to do so...

We have a participatory government, and our 'duty' as citizens is to participate. When we 'render unto Caesar' it is not just our taxes.

That said, I see Labor Unions as supporting a secular humanist ideal and am opposed to them on principal.... therefore, the participation I see would be the opposite of those protesting.

RabbiKnife
Mar 4th 2011, 03:50 PM
I'm just answering the OP.

You may not like it, because it doesn't fit your isolationist world view, but if you believe Romans 13, then you have to believe that God ordained our government in this country, which is self-government. If we self-govern as ordained by God, then everything said above is true.

And no, it is not a loophole from the kingdom. It is ordained by God, if you believe Romans 13.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 4th 2011, 04:13 PM
Easy folks... this is just a poll. The question is should a Christian participate in civil demonstrations, and if no, why and if yes, why. Does a civil demonstration lend to be civil disobedience? And with civil disobedience, would it be measured by... yelling at someone? Throwing something? Stopping something? Harming something, hurting someone, and if one or all occurs, then is this acceptable, based on being a Christian?

episkopos
Mar 4th 2011, 04:19 PM
I'm just answering the OP.

You may not like it, because it doesn't fit your isolationist world view, but if you believe Romans 13, then you have to believe that God ordained our government in this country, which is self-government. If we self-govern as ordained by God, then everything said above is true.

And no, it is not a loophole from the kingdom. It is ordained by God, if you believe Romans 13.

But the countries that God ordained include Libya, Afghanistan etc....

When we choose the best of the "lot" we become as king Saul. Either it works for ALL countries or it does not.

Evil lurks behind the innocense and idealism of believers in this matter.

GitRDunn
Mar 4th 2011, 04:19 PM
Not desiring to de-rail the thread, I would say that it is not only CAN a believer participate... but we are instructed to do so...

We have a participatory government, and our 'duty' as citizens is to participate. When we 'render unto Caesar' it is not just our taxes.

That said, I see Labor Unions as supporting a secular humanist ideal and am opposed to them on principal.... therefore, the participation I see would be the opposite of those protesting.
Could you elaborate on your last statement about how the Labor Unions support a secular humanist ideal? If you think it is too far off topic, would you be willing to elaborate in a new thread?

Amos_with_goats
Mar 4th 2011, 04:19 PM
Easy folks... this is just a poll. The question is should a Christian participate in civil demonstrations, and if no, why and if yes, why. Does a civil demonstration lend to be civil disobedience? And with civil disobedience, would it be measured by... yelling at someone? Throwing something? Stopping something? Harming something, hurting someone, and if one or all occurs, then is this acceptable, based on being a Christian?

Obviously, acting like an animal (as much footage from these particular protests have shown) is not consistent with being a follower of Christ.

On the other hand, the Tea Party rallies were not only peaceable, but were reported to have actually left less trash on the streets then they found when they arrived.

Might say something about the Spirit behind those involved... :hmm:

episkopos
Mar 4th 2011, 04:21 PM
Easy folks... this is just a poll. The question is should a Christian participate in civil demonstrations, and if no, why and if yes, why. Does a civil demonstration lend to be civil disobedience? And with civil disobedience, would it be measured by... yelling at someone? Throwing something? Stopping something? Harming something, hurting someone, and if one or all occurs, then is this acceptable, based on being a Christian?

The burning of cars has proven an effective way of getting the government's attention on a given issue. The car is a symbol of our freedom expressed through technology. As such it is the modern equivalent of burning an icon.

RabbiKnife
Mar 4th 2011, 04:27 PM
The burning of cars has proven an effective way of getting the government's attention on a given issue. The car is a symbol of our freedom expressed through technology. As such it is the modern equivalent of burning an icon.

In what country????????????

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 4th 2011, 04:33 PM
Hi, RbG... glad to see you here, though I'm a near-phantom now myself.

I primarily agree with da RabbiMachaira. However it was founded, the USA IS now. The Roman Empire conquered other nations.

(Keepin' it brief.)

slightlypuzzled
Mar 4th 2011, 04:40 PM
Since our governing documents allow it, it is ok as long as they do it in a manner that will not throw ugliness onto their witness as Christians. They should conduct themselves as the New Testament teaches; but otherwise, they have the right to 'redress their grievances' as any other citizen.

Amos_with_goats
Mar 4th 2011, 04:47 PM
Could you elaborate on your last statement about how the Labor Unions support a secular humanist ideal? If you think it is too far off topic, would you be willing to elaborate in a new thread?

Take a look at this thread (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/221815-The-Truth-about-Labor-Unions?p=2632665#post2632665).

BroRog
Mar 4th 2011, 05:00 PM
What are your thoughts toward Christians and civil demonstrations?

As the news reports within states today are showing that states within the USA are struggling with their budgets, and many states either have to change the way they compensate it’s workers or draw limits to its spending for the tasks being preformed or shut some services down, or lay off many workers, and this post is not to discuss how this or why this has happened, but to ask the reader:

…do you think a Christian who would also be a state worker - should be actively protesting against the state government?

And in light of your reply... would 1 Peter 2: 13 have any bearing?

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.I don't see protesting as rebellion against the government but rather a protest is one of the ways we communicate with our government. I think most of us feel this way, which is why we find it appalling when governments attack protesters with bullets. A protest march is harmless and is strictly meant to communicate solidarity around an idea.

Even civil disobedience can be a peaceful way to protest if done right. The protester sits down in the middle of the street. The police come and put the protester in the paddy wagon, take him down town, book him, and let him go. The point is made with no harm done.

I'm sure there were a lot of Christians in the civil rights marches of the 60's who wanted to express disapproval of segregation. It was a just cause and the marchers, following the lead of MLK and Gandhi, were peaceful and respectful for the most part.

I think Christians should feel free to peacefully assemble and stand up for righteous causes as long as the march is done with dignity and respect for life and property.

Athanasius
Mar 4th 2011, 05:04 PM
No mention of Francis Schaeffer yet?

episkopos
Mar 4th 2011, 05:22 PM
In what country????????????

Many countries. The recent uprisings in France for instance. This was over the perceived inequality of police treatment towards minority groups.

episkopos
Mar 4th 2011, 05:28 PM
If we take the case of the civil disobedience encouraged by Gandhi in the attempt at non-violent overthrow of a country (namely India) we get as close to "doing it right" as we can get in the public arena.

In many ways Gandhi was better at showing the teachings of Christ than practically any Christian in modern times. Gandhi himself embraced many of Christ's teachings but did not approve of the practice of Christians.

But even he could not stop human nature. There was no revival, simply a small pause in the violent tendencies of a people guided by their own beliefs and interests.

A true Christian should go beyond this.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 4th 2011, 07:05 PM
Since our governing documents allow it, it is ok as long as they do it in a manner that will not throw ugliness onto their witness as Christians. They should conduct themselves as the New Testament teaches; but otherwise, they have the right to 'redress their grievances' as any other citizen.

Hi SP, long time no talk to, hope all is well...

But just because the Government allows or provides for something, does that me we should always take the liberty? The US government today also allows for abortion, but I hope you'd agree that as Christians we stand away from abortions.

And also remember the times for which Peter wrote this... for Rome and Nero we killing both Jews and Christians and he's saying submit to the Human authority... for the Lord's sake... for such is the will of God.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 4th 2011, 07:12 PM
I don't see protesting as rebellion against the government but rather a protest is one of the ways we communicate with our government. I think most of us feel this way, which is why we find it appalling when governments attack protesters with bullets. A protest march is harmless and is strictly meant to communicate solidarity around an idea.

Even civil disobedience can be a peaceful way to protest if done right. The protester sits down in the middle of the street. The police come and put the protester in the paddy wagon, take him down town, book him, and let him go. The point is made with no harm done.

I'm sure there were a lot of Christians in the civil rights marches of the 60's who wanted to express disapproval of segregation. It was a just cause and the marchers, following the lead of MLK and Gandhi, were peaceful and respectful for the most part.

I think Christians should feel free to peacefully assemble and stand up for righteous causes as long as the march is done with dignity and respect for life and property.

I hear ya BroRog, but doesn't both Peter and Paul state that Christians should behave differently? I'm not stating not to voice a concern or an opinion, my comment is about civil demonstrations/disobedience... Shouldn't a christian take the punch and glorify God for doing what is right which silences the ignorance of foolish men? Or as Christians, we are to stand up to the punch and fight back? For what about the servant who get's manhandled by his master and is beaten, is Peter's comment to retaliate or to take it, and be an example, just as Christ took it?

Butch5
Mar 5th 2011, 02:47 PM
What are your thoughts toward Christians and civil demonstrations?

As the news reports within states today are showing that states within the USA are struggling with their budgets, and many states either have to change the way they compensate it’s workers or draw limits to its spending for the tasks being preformed or shut some services down, or lay off many workers, and this post is not to discuss how this or why this has happened, but to ask the reader:

…do you think a Christian who would also be a state worker - should be actively protesting against the state government?

And in light of your reply... would 1 Peter 2: 13 have any bearing?

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

I think Peter hit the nail right on the head. I would add Paul's words also,


2 Corinthians 6:1-18 ( KJV )
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
Now for a recompense in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

RabbiKnife
Mar 5th 2011, 03:10 PM
Is there anyone on this thread that actually understands that ALL of the power to govern is held by the people of the United States, and that the federal and state governments only have such power as we lend to them? Does anyone understand the concept of self-goverance?

Every example I've seen is people talking about submission to monarchy or dictatorship.

AndrewBaptistFL
Mar 5th 2011, 04:16 PM
2 Timothy 2:4
No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs—he wants to please his commanding officer.

episkopos
Mar 5th 2011, 04:17 PM
Is there anyone on this thread that actually understands that ALL of the power to govern is held by the people of the United States, and that the federal and state governments only have such power as we lend to them? Does anyone understand the concept of self-goverance?

Every example I've seen is people talking about submission to monarchy or dictatorship.

Any human advancement is a trade-off. One thing improves and another gets worse.

Dying to self is the hallmark of the calling in Christ. Most Christians have the hardest time with this...let alone the general public. So self-governance is alienation from God.

Politics can only structure and organize what is already there...already present. Are we, as Christians, to be responsible for organizing the people, who are alienated from God, in the goal of the improvement of their status in alienation?

One does not prune a bad tree...one rips it out.

episkopos
Mar 5th 2011, 04:19 PM
2 Timothy 2:4
No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs—he wants to please his commanding officer.

Exactly!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

Butch5
Mar 6th 2011, 12:23 AM
Is there anyone on this thread that actually understands that ALL of the power to govern is held by the people of the United States, and that the federal and state governments only have such power as we lend to them? Does anyone understand the concept of self-goverance?

Every example I've seen is people talking about submission to monarchy or dictatorship.

Yes, I understand it. However, my point is that unless the nation is nothing but Christians, one is required to be yoked with unbelievers, which we are told not to do. This nation is clearly not all Christians, actually, true Christians are pobably a minority in this country, I don't see how a Christian can be involved in Government without being unequally yoked with unbelievers.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 6th 2011, 02:27 AM
Is there anyone on this thread that actually understands that ALL of the power to govern is held by the people of the United States, and that the federal and state governments only have such power as we lend to them? Does anyone understand the concept of self-governance?

Every example I've seen is people talking about submission to monarchy or dictatorship.

To the USA, do we not vote for leaders and then [you and I] pray for them in office to be sensitive to the leading of godly rule -- and then we submit to the leadership from the executive and legislative branches and obey the outcomes from the judicial branch of government, which is appointed and ratified, not by the people, but by the other 2 branches of government.... and the others...until we vote again.... And as a democratic republic, which the leadership is chosen not by the majority of it's citizenship, but by the plurality of majority of those who do vote, which has historically been below 50% of those eligible to vote. So really, when the USA votes, we place people based on the majority of the minority of all who did vote, and not all who could vote.

And with the preamble to the US Constitution declaring the protection for the common good, this self governance is governed by state Constitutions, tied together to the US Constitution and is in protection by the vote of the people, for the people in common. So our elected officials, having been give authority through the vote of the people, and then the people, now submit to that authority with confidence and assurance within the constitution that the leadership they elected will defend and protect the common good of the constitution - until the next election, or through specific discipline process, as defined within the constitutions of federal, state and local law, or as challenged through the prescribed process before the court systems of the local, state and federal governance.

Without laws, and laws that stand the normal course of adversity when tested must govern and must hold, or laws become vehicles of self interpretation and not common protection. Thus i suggest for consideration that a Christian treat the elected government the same as if it were a monarch or dictatorship, not in support that a monarch or dictatorship is the desirable form of government, but biblically a command that honers God and shows non-Christians that we are different, and make our way of living attractive to know and point to Christ.

Slina
Mar 6th 2011, 06:15 AM
Is there anyone on this thread that actually understands that ALL of the power to govern is held by the people of the United States, and that the federal and state governments only have such power as we lend to them? Does anyone understand the concept of self-goverance?

Every example I've seen is people talking about submission to monarchy or dictatorship.

I agree, though I'm not really participating in the thread. Yes we're supposed to submit to government, but our government very specifically allows us to peacefully assemble in protest or freely criticize our government; that was kind of the whole point behind our government's set-up. The founding fathers actually wanted the citizens to be free to say whatever they wanted about the government, negative or not, and the Supreme Court for the most part has upheld that intention ever since.

Obviously we should submit to the laws of the land as long as they don't contradict the Bible (which as far as I know isn't much of an issue in the US right now), but I see nothing wrong with peaceably protesting or criticizing what we dislike about the government when the law itself (the Constitution is, after all, the supreme law of the land) specifically tells us it's okay.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 6th 2011, 06:42 AM
Is there anyone on this thread that actually understands that ALL of the power to govern is held by the people of the United States, and that the federal and state governments only have such power as we lend to them? Does anyone understand the concept of self-goverance?

Every example I've seen is people talking about submission to monarchy or dictatorship.

Affirmative. Agreed. Not difficult.

Caleb
Mar 7th 2011, 02:01 AM
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would have fought that I might not be delivered up to the Jews. But now My kingdom is not from here.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1Co 5:13 But those who are outside God will judge. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellent virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1Pe 2:10 who formerly were not a people but now are the people of God, who had not received mercy, but now have received mercy.

1Pe 2:11 Beloved, I implore you as sojourners and pilgrims, to abstain from the lusts of the flesh which war against the soul;
1Pe 2:12 having your manner of life noble among the Gentiles, so that, whenever they speak against you as evildoers, when they observe the good works, they may glorify God in the day of visitation.
1Pe 2:13 Therefore subject yourselves to every human institution on account of the Lord: whether to the king as to one having authority,
1Pe 2:14 or to governors, as to those being sent for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those doing good.

1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it if you patiently endure while sinning and being buffeted? But if you are suffering while doing good, and patiently endure, this is a grace from God.
1Pe 2:21 For you were called to this, for even Christ suffered on our behalf, leaving behind an example for us, that you should follow His steps;
1Pe 2:22 "who did not sin, nor was guile found in His mouth;"
1Pe 2:23 who, having been reviled, did not revile in return; suffering, He did not threaten, but gave Himself up to Him who was judging righteously;

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 7th 2011, 02:38 AM
Is there anyone on this thread that actually understands that ALL of the power to govern is held by the people of the United States, and that the federal and state governments only have such power as we lend to them? Does anyone understand the concept of self-goverance?

Every example I've seen is people talking about submission to monarchy or dictatorship.

Affirmative. Agreed. Not difficult.

OK..... so here is a question then. By the US Constitution, the President of the United States is our Commander in Chief of the Armed forces. With that fact said, is a solder in the US Armed forces at liberty to 'go against' the commander and chain of command through orders, even if his personal liberties were in jeopardy? Or does [s]he not submit to their constitutional authority?

And second question, not many democratic republics where around in AD45-80 when the disciples were penning the NT, so why limit this only to just monarchs and dictatorships? So later on in 1 Peter when he writes with the same tone, to submit to your masters, can we not apply this to employers? Is not the spirit of the message is to show Christ like qualities to the world through obedience?

So even though the constitution may provide for a degree of civil demonstrations, for which again is this an act that a Christian should do?

NHL Fever
Mar 9th 2011, 01:24 AM
The right to gather peacefully and protest the government is enshrined in the constitution of nearly all modern countries, including the US. In fact the biblical appeal to the government authority is more complicated in modern times, because the highest authority is not a person, but the constitution. If a Christian participates in protest, that is certainly consistent with the laws of the land which guarantee the right to do so. How one behaves at such a rally however, could be consistent with biblical principles of conduct or not.

The other question was that for those who feel a Christian should not engage in protest, do you say that simply because of your political beliefs and the fact that most protests are against Republican lawmakers or corporate powers? In other words ask yourself 2 questions 1) Do you support protesters against communist regimes? and 2) Do you support the highly uncivil protest of the American revolution?

little watchman
Mar 9th 2011, 04:18 PM
Is there anyone on this thread that actually understands that ALL of the power to govern is held by the people of the United States, and that the federal and state governments only have such power as we lend to them? Does anyone understand the concept of self-goverance?

Every example I've seen is people talking about submission to monarchy or dictatorship.

But what if you're wrong? What if the state governments have some 100 years ago been quietly supplanted by franchises of Washington, D.C. with the help of federal judges? What if the Declaration of Independence, a spendthrift trust, has been fraudulently rendered as a discretionary trust in which we the people have, without knowing it, given up all titles, rights, and interests? What if the people have been under martial law for years, but yet they are still given the appearance of self-governance through voting so that they won't complain? What if we are still under the authority of Rome, as is suggested by a premillennial understanding of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2?

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 04:22 PM
What if you read too much conspiracy theory junk on the internet?

Last I saw, the Constitution is still in full force and effect. The Declaration a "spendthrift trust?" Please... I suppose that the IRS is unconstitutional, the flags in federal courthouses are admiralty flags, that currency is not legal tender, blah blah blah.

You may be under the authority of Rome, but I'm not. Neither is anyone in the US.

The sun is shining, and the air is still clear.

But you might want to stock up on aluminum foil.

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 06:30 PM
The right to gather peacefully and protest the government is enshrined in the constitution of nearly all modern countries, including the US. In fact the biblical appeal to the government authority is more complicated in modern times, because the highest authority is not a person, but the constitution. If a Christian participates in protest, that is certainly consistent with the laws of the land which guarantee the right to do so. How one behaves at such a rally however, could be consistent with biblical principles of conduct or not.

The other question was that for those who feel a Christian should not engage in protest, do you say that simply because of your political beliefs and the fact that most protests are against Republican lawmakers or corporate powers? In other words ask yourself 2 questions 1) Do you support protesters against communist regimes? and 2) Do you support the highly uncivil protest of the American revolution?

Different regimes are different flavours of a people alienated from God. It is dangerous to prefer one product of the flesh over the other.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 07:29 PM
But if God ordained the governmental system, how can a Christian being involved in that government be anathema?

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 07:42 PM
But if God ordained the governmental system, how can a Christian being involved in that government be anathema?

God ordains authority and structure. Man ordains systems. These sytems are backed up by powers. But not the power of God. All things are according to an order. These powers have been taken over by squatters (demons). This was accomplished through the fall of man...who was to be that power over creation. We have been hoodwinked into the bondage of a usurping power. We have been captured by these usurpers.

The gospel is the declaration of a liberation from this bondage to the powers. We are given to see the reality of things. We as Christians are to war against these usurping powers on that level. The temporal governments are just the offshoots, the branches, of the powers that govern the air. These powers promote communism, totalitarianism..and yes!!!!..DEMOCRACY! Give the people what they want!

We are not to prune a bad tree. We are to tear it out.

So we do battle on the heavenly plane. We are to pray...and pray hard!

We cannot get entangled with the offshoots and details of this world. Our fight is much bigger than that.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 07:44 PM
Ah... got it.

So, then, hunger would be the result of sin and the usurpation by demonic forces over the earth. Therefore, I must pray that the demonic powers that control food sources are restrained.

But I should never buy the hungry man a samich.

Got it.

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 07:57 PM
Ah... got it.

So, then, hunger would be the result of sin and the usurpation by demonic forces over the earth. Therefore, I must pray that the demonic powers that control food sources are restrained.

But I should never buy the hungry man a samich.

Got it.

I think you are missing the point. It is men that sell their rights to the devil. They look to powers that have been subverted by the devil. In this way they become collaborators with the occupying forces.

The governments did not invent feeding people. You have drawn an erroneous link there.

God wants His people to rule over the earth. As such we do all in our power to bring justice, love, and harmony to the world. We are to be salt and light. He will help us when we look to HIM...not the powers that be.

But we cannot ally ourselves with the temporal powers. They are usurping powers. We are to look to God and stay faithful to Him. There is a spiritual war going on. Collaboration is a poor option.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 08:07 PM
Do you agree or disagree that God ordains ruling, governing, temporal powers?

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 08:31 PM
Do you agree or disagree that God ordains ruling, governing, temporal powers?

He did!
But so did He plant the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 08:34 PM
He did!
But so did He plant the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

If God ordains governments, and we agree that he does...temporal, world governments over men, then we have to further agree that God ordains the form of government that is held in the United States...self-government, through a freely chosen democratic republic.

It seems to follow that if God ordained it, then Christians have not only the right but also the duty to be involved in it, since even by their "abstinence" from it, they are involved in the government, holding to themselves the power of self-government that GOd ordained for us.

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 09:05 PM
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?



If God ordains governments, and we agree that he does...temporal, world governments over men, then we have to further agree that God ordains the form of government that is held in the United States...self-government, through a freely chosen democratic republic.

It seems to follow that if God ordained it, then Christians have not only the right but also the duty to be involved in it, since even by their "abstinence" from it, they are involved in the government, holding to themselves the power of self-government that GOd ordained for us.

God allows the present evil for eternal purposes. We should not be fooled into thinking that God condones what He allows to take place.

God did not ordain the present order. As I have previously stated God ordains authorities and order. That authority has been usurped by the squatting powers that fill the vacuum left by the fall of men. The demons DO NOT obey God. God also allowed the devil to usurp that authority and order. It is for our testing and training.

Love not the world not the things of the world...if one does God's love is not in him.

The gospel is a scandal to mankind. People will ask...what war? what bondage?

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 09:28 PM
How do you reconcile "God did not ordain the present order" with Romans 13? ON what basis do you state that demons have usurped the order that God clearly ordains in Romans 13?

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 09:44 PM
How do you reconcile "God did not ordain the present order" with Romans 13? ON what basis do you state that demons have usurped the order that God clearly ordains in Romans 13?

Let's have a look-see shall we? :)

[COLOR="blue"]
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.As I have said all authority is instituted by God. We cannot be disorderly or lawless. The laws exist for the purpose of order. We are not to be disorderly. We are to do better than the requirements.



3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.Laws are made for the lawless. We are to excel above the law. God's order is carried through the principalities. A house divided cannot stand. Even though the powers are corrupt, they still are looking at keeping the peace. This is beneficial to all. Even the saints. We do not show forth God's order through a rebellious disorder towards the temporal powers. That would justify the powers as being the bringers of order rather than God. No, order is always required in any society...even a society that is alienated from God.

Remember Jesus said of the Pharisees...do as they say but not as they do. Does this mean we should become Pharisees or get involved in Phariseeism?


6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Love Fulfills the LawGive to Caesar what is Caesars'. Respect authority not the person.

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 09:50 PM
Here is the dialectic to Romans 13 concerning government...

Acts 5:29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.

One verse is not above another. But they all come together to express the truth.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 09:53 PM
And nothing in your dialectic even hints at the separatism that you promote, or suggest that the governments ordained in Romans 13 are "usurped by demons."

Taking the passage in Acts out of its context doesn't even HINT at what you are promoting -- isolationism from civic responsibility.

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 10:00 PM
And nothing in your dialectic even hints at the separatism that you promote, or suggest that the governments ordained in Romans 13 are "usurped by demons."

Taking the passage in Acts out of its context doesn't even HINT at what you are promoting -- isolationism from civic responsibility.

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 10:03 PM
2 Corinthians 10:3-5, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ."

Neanias
Mar 9th 2011, 10:05 PM
2 Corinthians 10:3-5, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ."

Yes! This always makes me think of...

Pro 21:22 A wise man scales the city of the mighty and brings down the stronghold in which they trust.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 10:22 PM
2 Corinthians 10:3-5, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ."

And from that one passage you make the great leap to "demons have usurped earthly temporal governments ordained by God"?

Wow.....

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 10:23 PM
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Jesus is already the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and the kingdoms of this world are already his. No usurpin' going on.

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 10:24 PM
And from that one passage you make the great leap to "demons have usurped earthly temporal governments ordained by God"?

Wow.....

I did not write an exhaustive list. It is the other way around. It is only the misunderstanding of Romans 13 that has led to believers collaborating with the occupiers.

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 10:27 PM
Ephesians 6:12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities (#746), against powers (#1849), against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 10:28 PM
Dan 10 “Then he said unto me, Fear not, Daniel; for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand.... thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.”

episkopos
Mar 9th 2011, 10:30 PM
Psalms 115:16 , “The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s; but the earth hath He given to the children of men.”

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 10:40 PM
I must be really dense, because you make absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. To paraphrase Chris Rock, "I don't understand any of the words coming out of your mouth."

Your circular, speculative out of context eisigesis of Scripture doesn't move me in the slightest.

You say that God ordains governments that are usurped by demons and that Christians can't have involvement in those governments.

Wow.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 14th 2011, 06:01 PM
So back from my CA trip... soooooo bumping back to the top to restart this bad boy.