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View Full Version : Is the Deity of Christ an essential to salvific faith?! (See OP for clarification.)



PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 4th 2011, 05:06 PM
Is the Deity of Christ essential for true saving faith?! If not, what is the essential?! If so, why?!

Either way, scripture please.


I affirm the Deity of Christ. I don't see a mandate in scripture that says it is a requirement.

Firefighter
Mar 4th 2011, 05:16 PM
Sure it is! When we repent, we repent (have a change of mind or heart about) of WHO Christ is. He is God in the form of a man, who came to pay the price for our sins.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 4th 2011, 05:21 PM
Sure it is! When we repent, we repent (have a change of mind or heart about) of WHO Christ is. He is God in the form of a man, who came to pay the price for our sins.

Though I whole-heartedly believe that personally, I don't find that in the Word as I've been searching it lately. Any passages you could point me to that I'm overlooking?

Firefighter
Mar 4th 2011, 05:22 PM
"Who do you say that I am?" ~ Jesus Christ

episkopos
Mar 4th 2011, 05:37 PM
Does a person need to believe that a lifeguard is indeed a lifeguard before he can be rescued and saved from drowning?

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 4th 2011, 05:43 PM
"Who do you say that I am?" ~ Jesus Christ

Yes, John 6:69. "And we believe and are sure that thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Existing faith will affirm this as the Deity of Christ, but that's not what it actually says.

I'm not arguing against Christ's Deity, just trying to substantiate it specifically from the Word. So far, I cannot; which prompts my question.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 4th 2011, 05:49 PM
Does a person need to believe that a lifeguard is indeed a lifeguard before he can be rescued and saved from frowning?

No. (What does a frown have to do with lifeguards or Jesus? Lol.)

I think this may be my point. Even though He IS Deity, is that a necessary component of salvation initially or eventually? Can a belief in Jesus as the identity of God be salvific without believing He is the nature of God?

WSGAC
Mar 4th 2011, 05:49 PM
Not sure it has to be for the human Jesus. What does it mean for a man to be deity?

Paul doesn't seem to think it necessary, as Jesus doesn't become the "divine son" until his resurrection:

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Romans 1:3-4

Other translations say "designated the Son of God..." Well what was Jesus before the resurrection, in Paul's mind? Anything from Paul that would give us a clue?

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 4th 2011, 05:52 PM
Not sure it has to be for the human Jesus. What does it mean for a man to be deity?

Paul doesn't seem to think in necessary, as Jesus doesn't become the "divine son" until his resurrection:

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Romans 1:3-4

Other translations say "designated the Son of God..." Well what was Jesus before the resurrection, in Paul's mind? Anything from Paul that would give us a clue?

I think that's essentially where I'm going with this. Not whether He IS Deity, but whether salavation depends on believing He was.

BroRog
Mar 4th 2011, 05:55 PM
How are you defining "deity" ontologically, or by his character? We can understand the term "deity" in terms of what kind of "stuff" Jesus is made of, i.e. God like stuff. Or we can understand "deity" in terms of the inherent complex of attributes that determines a persons moral and ethical actions and reactions, i.e. God like character.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 4th 2011, 06:04 PM
How are you defining "deity" ontologically, or by his character? We can understand the term "deity" in terms of what kind of "stuff" Jesus is made of, i.e. God like stuff. Or we can understand "deity" in terms of the inherent complex of attributes that determines a persons moral and ethical actions and reactions, i.e. God like character.

I'm actually including either/both. Orthodoxy has represented ontological-nature of substance ("stuff"), but other God-models present it as non-ontological by identity.

I'm not really setting the stage of contending for/against that Deity or type, just looking for scripture and responses on whether it is an essential for salvific faith.

Firefighter
Mar 4th 2011, 06:22 PM
Why then the accusation of blasphemy in Matthew 9:3??? Jesus being God is integral to His ability to forgive us of our sins.

BroRog
Mar 4th 2011, 06:40 PM
I'm actually including either/both. Orthodoxy has represented ontological-nature of substance ("stuff"), but other God-models present it as non-ontological by identity.

I'm not really setting the stage of contending for/against that Deity or type, just looking for scripture and responses on whether it is an essential for salvific faith.

I can't actually participate in your pole if you aren't going to settle on one or the other. I realize that Catholics and certain denominations will declare a person anathema if they refuse to affirm that Jesus is divine in his ontological nature. Given this view, I would disagree with them. I don't think anyone is anathema who does not affirm that Jesus is divine in his ontological nature. However, I think that one should eventually come to understand that Jesus is divine by his identity as God, having all the same complex set of character attributes of God the father such that Jesus can tell Philip, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

I don't think all Christians start out with this understanding and they may never come to this understanding. And so I can't say whether God will save such a person or not, especially as I don't think God saves us based on having a complete knowledge of the entire picture.

Having said that, I think we should eventually come to understand that when Jesus asked, "Who do you say that I am?", the correct answer is, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And what Peter meant to say is, "you are that one particular son of God, who is the image of God, who is going to rule for God on earth, who represents God to us human beings in every way possible for a human being to actually be God, the one who has God's identity, who is God incarnate, and stands to inherit the entire assembly, his church." Peter was speaking into a larger context in which God, through the prophets, had taught Israel to anticipate a coming one, a holy one who would bring about a kingdom of righteousness and goodness and that God himself would rule among his people. To say that Jesus is the Christ is to say that Jesus is THAT person who is God living among his people and ruling them from Zion. Given that God taught his people to anticipate such a man, Peter was saying, "you be the man."

I think Christians need to understand this and affirm it in order to claim to be Christian. But God gives us lots of lea way to make mistakes in our theology, so I can't honestly say that anyone who doesn't get it is anathema. We are all in process.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 4th 2011, 07:39 PM
Though I whole-heartedly believe that personally, I don't find that in the Word as I've been searching it lately. Any passages you could point me to that I'm overlooking?

Hope these help you...

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"

John 11:27 She *said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

John 12:36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.

John 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,


John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 8:37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]

1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Slug1
Mar 4th 2011, 08:21 PM
Though I whole-heartedly believe that personally, I don't find that in the Word as I've been searching it lately. Any passages you could point me to that I'm overlooking?I figure that the scriptures in Matthew 16:13-20 would answer your question and need for scripture. Then in chapter 17 we read about the transfiguration of Christ.

Peter was given the correct answer about who Christ is (chapter 16) by the Holy Spirit and then had proof 6 days later. We get to read about what they say and experienced so that scripture clinches an answer... for me it does, anyway.

keck553
Mar 4th 2011, 08:27 PM
Jesus said "If you don't know Me, you don't know the Father.

I think that's pretty clear.

RollTide21
Mar 4th 2011, 09:49 PM
I would back into the answer.

When we received Christ, we received Him as a result of the Spirit. We felt the tug of the Holy Spirit and we prayed to receive Him by calling on the name of Jesus. At that time, we likely didn't intellectualize EXACTLY who Christ was. We just knew that to receive the changing power of the Holy Spirit, we should call on the name of Jesus.

With that said, now that you have the Spirit, ask yourself if the Jesus is God. Does the Spirit allow you to think that Jesus may just be a mere man sent by God?

WSGAC
Mar 4th 2011, 09:59 PM
Luke 19

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Question: Did Zacchaeus receive salvation becasue he accepted the deity of Christ, or for saying the sinner's prayer, or for believing that Jesus was the Son of God? Wasn't it only Peter who recognized the latter...and not because he came to this on his own, but because it had been revealed to Peter by the Father?

Certainly Zacchaeus new nothing of Jesus' deity, but he did recognize something very special in Jesus, and about him! And yet Jesus said "salvation has come to this house!"

RollTide21
Mar 4th 2011, 10:19 PM
I think that's essentially where I'm going with this. Not whether He IS Deity, but whether salavation depends on believing He was.I don't think that works. I can see believing that Salvation depends on Jesus...whoever He is, even if He is merely an annointed Messiah that does not equal God. I can't see Salvation depending on something that may or may not be true. Or can you explain further?

RollTide21
Mar 4th 2011, 10:22 PM
I can't actually participate in your pole if you aren't going to settle on one or the other. I realize that Catholics and certain denominations will declare a person anathema if they refuse to affirm that Jesus is divine in his ontological nature. Given this view, I would disagree with them. I don't think anyone is anathema who does not affirm that Jesus is divine in his ontological nature. However, I think that one should eventually come to understand that Jesus is divine by his identity as God, having all the same complex set of character attributes of God the father such that Jesus can tell Philip, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

I don't think all Christians start out with this understanding and they may never come to this understanding. And so I can't say whether God will save such a person or not, especially as I don't think God saves us based on having a complete knowledge of the entire picture.

Having said that, I think we should eventually come to understand that when Jesus asked, "Who do you say that I am?", the correct answer is, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And what Peter meant to say is, "you are that one particular son of God, who is the image of God, who is going to rule for God on earth, who represents God to us human beings in every way possible for a human being to actually be God, the one who has God's identity, who is God incarnate, and stands to inherit the entire assembly, his church." Peter was speaking into a larger context in which God, through the prophets, had taught Israel to anticipate a coming one, a holy one who would bring about a kingdom of righteousness and goodness and that God himself would rule among his people. To say that Jesus is the Christ is to say that Jesus is THAT person who is God living among his people and ruling them from Zion. Given that God taught his people to anticipate such a man, Peter was saying, "you be the man."

I think Christians need to understand this and affirm it in order to claim to be Christian. But God gives us lots of lea way to make mistakes in our theology, so I can't honestly say that anyone who doesn't get it is anathema. We are all in process.A great post, Bro.....

Servant89
Mar 4th 2011, 10:22 PM
I read the entire JW's NT which was corrupted on purpose. They eliminated every instance that Jesus said "I AM HE". All but one (which it just so happens is the most important of them all). That tells me God controlled even that version so they would have no excuse in the day of Judgment.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

That is when the saints of God say... AMEN !

Shalom

Neanias
Mar 5th 2011, 12:44 AM
Is the Deity of Christ essential for true saving faith?! If not, what is the essential?! If so, why?!

Either way, scripture please.


I affirm the Deity of Christ. I don't see a mandate in scripture that says it is a requirement.

Hmmm... Very interesting. I was trying to understand your question as it was asked, and saw three ways of interpreting, all of which seem to have been mixed in the answers.

If you are asking if the belief that Christ is deity is essential for salvation, then I would answer with another question: is any belief capable of saving? If the belief is alone, and yet can save, isn't that gnosticism? After all, the devil himself believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and is God; even better, he knows it! Yes, I know, everyone is about to pull out the "If anyone believes upon me..." out of his back pocket ;) but isn't faith without works dead?

And what of the good Samaritan, it doesn't seem that he believed Christ was the son of God.

Is faith in Christ (as the son of God) necessary to, let's say, walk like him? Yes! Still it's not a belief... It's faith, which means you believe (notice, belief is inactive, while "believes" is active, in other words, living faith). His power doesn't just fall on anyone, I would say.

So for the first, I don't think any belief saves you. And for the 2nd and 3rd, as far as living faith is concerned, I think it all depends on whether you're talking on a righteousness level (the good Samaritan) or a holiness level (Paul, Peter, John, for example).

Bandit
Mar 5th 2011, 02:43 AM
Not sure it has to be for the human Jesus. What does it mean for a man to be deity?

Paul doesn't seem to think it necessary, as Jesus doesn't become the "divine son" until his resurrection:

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Romans 1:3-4

Other translations say "designated the Son of God..." Well what was Jesus before the resurrection, in Paul's mind? Anything from Paul that would give us a clue?

Hello WSGAC,

I suggest that you are missing Paul's point in Romans 1:3-4. Paul is not saying that Jesus became the "divine son" at the resurrection; what Paul is saying here is that through (or at) the resurrection, Jesus' identity as the Son of God is powerfully revealed.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 5th 2011, 03:41 AM
I can't actually participate in your pole if you aren't going to settle on one or the other. I realize that Catholics and certain denominations will declare a person anathema if they refuse to affirm that Jesus is divine in his ontological nature. Given this view, I would disagree with them. I don't think anyone is anathema who does not affirm that Jesus is divine in his ontological nature. However, I think that one should eventually come to understand that Jesus is divine by his identity as God, having all the same complex set of character attributes of God the father such that Jesus can tell Philip, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

I don't think all Christians start out with this understanding and they may never come to this understanding. And so I can't say whether God will save such a person or not, especially as I don't think God saves us based on having a complete knowledge of the entire picture.

Having said that, I think we should eventually come to understand that when Jesus asked, "Who do you say that I am?", the correct answer is, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And what Peter meant to say is, "you are that one particular son of God, who is the image of God, who is going to rule for God on earth, who represents God to us human beings in every way possible for a human being to actually be God, the one who has God's identity, who is God incarnate, and stands to inherit the entire assembly, his church." Peter was speaking into a larger context in which God, through the prophets, had taught Israel to anticipate a coming one, a holy one who would bring about a kingdom of righteousness and goodness and that God himself would rule among his people. To say that Jesus is the Christ is to say that Jesus is THAT person who is God living among his people and ruling them from Zion. Given that God taught his people to anticipate such a man, Peter was saying, "you be the man."

I think Christians need to understand this and affirm it in order to claim to be Christian. But God gives us lots of lea way to make mistakes in our theology, so I can't honestly say that anyone who doesn't get it is anathema. We are all in process.

Fair enough. I knew this would leave you torn. Your post was clearer than a simple vote.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 5th 2011, 03:46 AM
Hope these help you...

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"

John 11:27 She *said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

John 12:36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.

John 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,


John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 8:37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]

1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

A great list. I just don't clearly see Deity expressed in any of these. We who believe the Son of God is Deity will, of course, see it; but it's more confirmation than affirmation.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 5th 2011, 03:50 AM
I figure that the scriptures in Matthew 16:13-20 would answer your question and need for scripture. Then in chapter 17 we read about the transfiguration of Christ.

Peter was given the correct answer about who Christ is (chapter 16) by the Holy Spirit and then had proof 6 days later. We get to read about what they say and experienced so that scripture clinches an answer... for me it does, anyway.

I certainly see it, but it isn't a specific declaration.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 5th 2011, 03:52 AM
Jesus said "If you don't know Me, you don't know the Father.

I think that's pretty clear.

To you and me, yes. Still implied, albeit strongly.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 5th 2011, 03:55 AM
Luke 19

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Question: Did Zacchaeus receive salvation becasue he accepted the deity of Christ, or for saying the sinner's prayer, or for believing that Jesus was the Son of God? Wasn't it only Peter who recognized the latter...and not because he came to this on his own, but because it had been revealed to Peter by the Father?

Certainly Zacchaeus new nothing of Jesus' deity, but he did recognize something very special in Jesus, and about him! And yet Jesus said "salvation has come to this house!"

This gets closer to the heart of the question. What IS salvific faith in regards to Jesus' Deity?

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 5th 2011, 04:04 AM
I don't think that works. I can see believing that Salvation depends on Jesus...whoever He is, even if He is merely an annointed Messiah that does not equal God. I can't see Salvation depending on something that may or may not be true. Or can you explain further?

Your quandry about the question IS the question. Is salvific faith in Jesus for specifically who/what He is? Or is salvific faith in Jesus regardless who/what He is?

Is there a distinction between ignorance and specificity? IOW, a Unitarian specifically believing in Jesus as the Son of God but that He is NOT Deity, versus someone who simply doesn't realize or recognize His Deity?

WSGAC
Mar 5th 2011, 04:09 AM
Hello WSGAC,

I suggest that you are missing Paul's point in Romans 1:3-4. Paul is not saying that Jesus became the "divine son" at the resurrection; what Paul is saying here is that through (or at) the resurrection, Jesus' identity as the Son of God is powerfully revealed.

Perhaps "became" was the wrong word. But Paul does seem to differ from the gospel writer Mark where the Father *declares*, "Thou art my beloved Son, with thee I am well pleased!" (see Psalm 2), and this occurs at Jesus' baptism. Clearly, for Mark, the power came to Jesus at this point in his life, as the wonders he performed by the power of the Spirit began after his baptism. Yet Paul speaks of Jesus being *declared* Son of God with power at His resurrection. Additionally, this is underscored by Paul's view of Jesus the man in Philippians 2.

So, back to the original question of whether it be essential to believe in the deity of Christ for salvation, I'm pretty sure Jesus saved many in his day who saw that the Spirit of God was upon Him (ie., someone like Zacchaeus for instance) but had no clue of any deity substance in Jesus.

Slina
Mar 5th 2011, 06:33 AM
I believe the fact of his deity is vital to salvation, but I don't think people necessarily need to know he's God to be saved as long as they understand the basics of what he did for them on the cross. At the same time, I think that a true believer, if he didn't know about Christ's deity initially, would absolutely believe that Jesus is God when he does learn about it.

ProDeo
Mar 5th 2011, 10:38 AM
Is the Deity of Christ essential for true saving faith?! If not, what is the essential?! If so, why?!

Sure it is essential. Because He is. Facts are always essential.


I don't see a mandate in scripture that says it is a requirement.

Me neither and yet I can not vote cause I am missing the option "maybe it depends". I can see a couple of scenario's:

1) A Christian who hasn't given the issue a thorough thought;

2) A not-so-well-scriptural educated Christian;

3) Misled Christians such as JW's.

4) Well educated Christians (such as here on BF) who have given the Deity of Christ a thorough thought.

It's likely 1 & 2 by the grace and love of God are excused, scenario 3 I leave up to God, but scenario 4 is fascinating.

If you are well educated in Scripture, have given the Deity of Christ a thorough thought and yet come to the conclusion Jesus was not God incarnated then you willfully have chosen to live dangerously. It's one thing a person to conclude, I am undecided, but it's another giant step to conclude Jesus was (thus still is) not Divine willfully sweeping aside the plenty of evidence. It makes no sense. Not for an educated Christian.

My best guess is that God will look at motive and judge accordingly.

Solly PPS, no Scripture to offer, I know you asked.

notuptome
Mar 5th 2011, 01:14 PM
Salvitic faith comes through the word of God and is testified to by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is Jehovah God incarnate. Not attested to by flesh and blood but by the Holy Spirit. If you have a faith that does not affirm the diety of Jesus Christ then you must question what for kinda faith you gots.

John 10:30 Jesus said I and My Father are One. For this the Jews wanted to stone Him because they got it. Jesus said He was God. vs 33

Salvitic faith produces a belief that Jesus is in fact God. It may not be necessary to know this before one becomes saved but it will become evident after one becomes saved because the Holy Spirit will teach it to the believing heart and the believing tongue will confess it before men.

The demons cried out to the testimony of Jesus in Mat 8:29. The demons could not deny the diety of Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
Mar 5th 2011, 02:34 PM
Is the Deity of Christ essential for true saving faith?! If not, what is the essential?! If so, why?!

Either way, scripture please.


I affirm the Deity of Christ. I don't see a mandate in scripture that says it is a requirement.

Hi PP,

I'm not sure that God would reject someone for not knowing that Christ is deity. However, to answer your question from the Scriptures I think it is clear that if one understands salvation they will believe in the deity of Christ. Many Christians are not taught what they should believe, they are simply told to believe that Jesus died for their sins and they will be saved. Jesus and the apostles, however, taught much more than a simple belief in the forgiveness of sins. They taught Jesus as the fulfillment of the OT promise of the Messiah, the promised redeemer of Israel. One particular trait of this redeemer was that He would be the Son of God.

Psalms 2:1-8 ( KJV )
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Therefore a Jew looking for this redeemer would understand that he was the Son of God. As a son of deity, He would be deity also. As I said, most Christians aren't taught that today, but when one "Believes" in Christ that is essentially what they are believing. They are believing that He is the promise redeemer of Israel. I think when one understands that the promised Messiah is the Son of God they cannot help but believe He is deity.

Uncle Bud
Mar 5th 2011, 02:43 PM
I read the entire JW's NT which was corrupted on purpose. They eliminated every instance that Jesus said "I AM HE". All but one (which it just so happens is the most important of them all). That tells me God controlled even that version so they would have no excuse in the day of Judgment.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

That is when the saints of God say... AMEN !

Shalom

I was going to quote John 8:24, then I decided to look through the posts so I didn't repeat it. One of the best.

episkopos
Mar 5th 2011, 02:57 PM
Keep in mind that the devil also believes in the deity of Christ.

We are not saved by believing facts. We will not have a questionnaire to fill out in order to proceed into the next age.

If we look at the sheep and goats judgment in Mat 25 we see that the righteous were surprised that they had somehow ministered to Jesus. The Lord is not looking for synchophants, well wishers, fans, supporters etc....

He is looking for they who will obey Him, whether knowingly or not.

WSGAC
Mar 5th 2011, 03:13 PM
Hi PP,

I'm not sure that God would reject someone for not knowing that Christ is deity. However, to answer your question from the Scriptures I think it is clear that if one understands salvation they will believe in the deity of Christ. Many Christians are not taught what they should believe, they are simply told to believe that Jesus died for their sins and they will be saved. Jesus and the apostles, however, taught much more than a simple belief in the forgiveness of sins. They taught Jesus as the fulfillment of the OT promise of the Messiah, the promised redeemer of Israel. One particular trait of this redeemer was that He would be the Son of God.

Psalms 2:1-8 ( KJV )
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Therefore a Jew looking for this redeemer would understand that he was the Son of God. As a son of deity, He would be deity also. As I said, most Christians aren't taught that today, but when one "Believes" in Christ that is essentially what they are believing. They are believing that He is the promise redeemer of Israel. I think when one understands that the promised Messiah is the Son of God they cannot help but believe He is deity.

Psalm 2 is an interesting one! How did this psalm function in Israel's history? In other words, when and where might Psalm 2 be sung or used in Israelite worship? Many have rightly suggested that it was used when an Israelite king was annointed and installed as king. The king was, on his coronation, declared begotten of God, his son. Let the nations take note says the psalm for this one is the Lord's anointed.

The same words are used of Jesus at his baptism (see Mark), after which Jesus begins his ministry with the words of Isaiah, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has anointed me...."

tango
Mar 5th 2011, 04:40 PM
Does a person need to believe that a lifeguard is indeed a lifeguard before he can be rescued and saved from frowning?

Frowning... funny typo :lol:

Seriously though, if I'm drowning (and maybe frowning about it) if someone comes close I need to know what they are about so I can relax and let them get me to safety. If I struggle there's a good chance I'll drown myself and them along the way (seriously, it's not unheard of for a child to be so panicked they grapple with a rescuer and the result is that both need rescuing). If I relax and let the lifeguard take me to safety I'm not doing anything, I'm specifically letting the lifeguard do precisely what is needed to save me.

Dani H
Mar 5th 2011, 04:58 PM
If Jesus isn't deity, then God redeemed us via human sacrifice. Which He punished all kinds of people for in the OT.

So I'ma go with ... yes.

GOD's life was given to redeem me from sin. That very fact imparts value to mankind as the pinnacle of His creation. And if we don't know who Jesus really is, we can't possibly begin to know who we are, and treat one another accordingly. We can't possibly begin to understand the severity of sin because we will forever continue to devalue and undervalue one another.

None other than GOD is going to return to this earth in physical form to claim His rightful property. Because the earth is the LORD's and the fullness thereof. It never did change ownership, not even for one second, and never will.

episkopos
Mar 5th 2011, 05:05 PM
Frowning... funny typo :lol:

Seriously though, if I'm drowning (and maybe frowning about it) if someone comes close I need to know what they are about so I can relax and let them get me to safety. If I struggle there's a good chance I'll drown myself and them along the way (seriously, it's not unheard of for a child to be so panicked they grapple with a rescuer and the result is that both need rescuing). If I relax and let the lifeguard take me to safety I'm not doing anything, I'm specifically letting the lifeguard do precisely what is needed to save me.

;) OOPS! What I'm saying is that we learn later who saved us. Remember the man at the pool of Siloam who could not help himself get into the water when it was stirred. Jesus healed him. Only later did Jesus reveal who He is.

Raybob
Mar 5th 2011, 07:31 PM
Not sure it has to be for the human Jesus. What does it mean for a man to be deity?

Paul doesn't seem to think it necessary, as Jesus doesn't become the "divine son" until his resurrection:

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Romans 1:3-4

Other translations say "designated the Son of God..." Well what was Jesus before the resurrection, in Paul's mind? Anything from Paul that would give us a clue?

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(Mat 3:16-17)

This is clearly before His resurrection.

chad
Mar 5th 2011, 08:37 PM
I don't see how someone cannot believe in the diety of Christ? Isn't that the basic of belief in Christianity, when one accepts Jesus as Saviour - that Jesus was the son of God, he died on the cross for our sins. He was raised from the dead, he went to be with the father and sent the Holy Spirit.

Mt 1:20-23 affirms the diety of Christ.
(Mat 1:20 NIV) But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

(Mat 1:21 NIV) She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

(Mat 1:22 NIV) All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:

(Mat 1:23 NIV) "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."




Is the Deity of Christ essential for true saving faith?! If not, what is the essential?! If so, why?!

Either way, scripture please.


I affirm the Deity of Christ. I don't see a mandate in scripture that says it is a requirement.

Servant89
Mar 5th 2011, 09:19 PM
If Jesus is not God, then the one on the cross was just a man. If the price offered on Calvary was the price of a man, then it is not enough to pay for the sins of the whole world. Jesus can pay for the sins of the entire world because he is the Creator and the Creator is worth more than all creation put together.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 5th 2011, 09:27 PM
Forgive me the upper case, I am not screaming (I copied and pasted from a file in my computer that I created years ago). Most of this is from the book: "Evidence that Demands a Veredict" (Josh McDowell). About one third of this, I added myself.

IF GOD BECOMES A MAN... I WOULD EXPECT HIM TO ....
HAVE AN UNUSUAL ENTRANCE INTO THE WORLD, LIKE A VIRGIN BIRTH
BE WITHOUT SIN
MANIFEST THE SUPERNATURAL (MIRACLES, ACTS 2:22 JOHN 21:25)
NATURE WILL OBEY HIM (MARK 4:41)
BE ABOVE THE LAWS OF NATURE (MAT 14:25)
HAVE AN ACUTE SENSE OF DIFFERENCE FROM OTHER MEN
SPEAK THE GREATEST WORDS EVER SPOKEN (JOHN 7:46)
HAVE A LASTING AND UNIVERSAL INFLUENCE ON MANKIND
BE ABLE TO READ MINDS (1KING 8:39 JOHN 6:64 JOHN 2:25)
BE ABLE TO TELL THE FUTURE (ISA 41:23 JOH 13:19)
BE ABLE TO SATISFY THE SPIRITUAL HUNGER IN MAN
EXCERCISE POWER OVER DEATH (ECC 8:8, JOHN 10:17-18)
COULD NOT BE KILLED (JOHN 10:17-18)
BE AWARE OF THINGS FAR OFF (JOHN 1:48)
BE IMMUTABLE (DOES NOT CHANGE, HEB 13:8)
HE WILL RECEIVE WORSHIP (MAT 2:11 MAT 14:33 MAT 9:18, REV 19:10 REV 22:9)
DEMONS WILL FEAR HIM (MAR 5:6-7; JAM 2:19)
WOULD NOT BE TRAPPED BY MAN'S ARGUMENTS (JOHN 8:3-11 MAT 22:15-22)
PROVIDE THE SOLUTION FOR SINS AND DEATH (LEV 17:11 HEB 9:22 ACTS 13:39 1JOHN 1:7)
WILL NOT LIE (NUM 23:19; HEB 6:18)
WILL NEVER APOLOGIZE (MAT 15:12-14)
WILL NEVER HAVE TO REPRASE OR CORRECT ANY OF HIS WORDS
WILL NEVER SAY "EXCUSE ME, PARDON ME, SORRY, WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY..., LET ME SAY IT THIS OTHER WAY, MAY I...,MY BAD, ETC.
WILL NOT RECEIVE COUNSEL OF MAN (MAT 16:22-23; JOHN 7:3-5)
HIS ARRIVAL WILL BE MOST IMPORTANT EVENT IN HISTORY, ACTUALLY, HISTORY SHOULD BE MEASURED RELATIVE TO THE TIME OF HIS ARRIVAL

SHALOM

Servant89
Mar 5th 2011, 09:33 PM
I was going to quote John 8:24, then I decided to look through the posts so I didn't repeat it. One of the best.

I think that is the best evidence regarding the importance of believeing that Jesus is God is John 8:24-27, by far.

Peace

mcgyver
Mar 5th 2011, 09:41 PM
I voted "Yes"...and along with the other scripture posted would add Romans 10: 9-10, 13.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

"Lord" here is a conjugation of the word "Kurios", which was a term of deity that the Romans ascribed to Caesar...

The instruction to the Romans is that one must confess Jesus as God (instead of Caesar), and then goes on to say that whoever calls on the name of κυριου [God, i.e. Jesus] shall be saved...

amazzin
Mar 5th 2011, 09:44 PM
I really don't want to start quoting the entire book of Romans....I don't think my fingers can type that much ;)


Is the Deity of Christ essential for true saving faith?! If not, what is the essential?! If so, why?!

Either way, scripture please.


I affirm the Deity of Christ. I don't see a mandate in scripture that says it is a requirement.

WSGAC
Mar 5th 2011, 10:43 PM
Can a Monarchian be saved?...whether modalist or adoptionist, can such be saved?

Butch5
Mar 6th 2011, 12:14 AM
Psalm 2 is an interesting one! How did this psalm function in Israel's history? In other words, when and where might Psalm 2 be sung or used in Israelite worship? Many have rightly suggested that it was used when an Israelite king was anointed and installed as king. The king was, on his coronation, declared begotten of God, his son. Let the nations take note says the psalm for this one is the Lord's anointed.

The same words are used of Jesus at his baptism (see Mark), after which Jesus begins his ministry with the words of Isaiah, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has anointed me...."

That may be, I'm not familiar with that. However, in the Psalm it is clear that it is God who is making the declaration, not men. The Psalmist records the words "The said unto me". The most they could do is claim this was David, there is no way to apply it to any other kings. However, Paul makes it clear that it is speaking of Christ in the epistle to the Hebrews,

Hebrews 1:1-12 ( NKJV )
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”
But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”

In the above passage Paul also quotes Psalm 45.

Psalms 45:1-7 ( NKJV )
My heart is overflowing with a good theme; I recite my composition concerning the King; My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
You are fairer than the sons of men; Grace is poured upon Your lips; Therefore God has blessed You forever. Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One, With Your glory and Your majesty.
And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness; And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things.
Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King’s enemies; The peoples fall under You.
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.


Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

This phrase phrase could be understood two ways, either there would always be someone on the throne forever, or, one person would reign on the throne forever. It would seem that unless one believed that a person could live forever, option one would mostly likely be the understood interpretation. However, the issue is set to rest by the Prophet Isaiah, when he writes,

Isaiah 9:6-7 ( NKJV )
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah makes it clear that it is one individual who will reign on David's throne forever. We also see who this is, "Unto us a Son is given."

Neanias
Mar 6th 2011, 05:46 AM
Can a Samaritan be saved?

Servant89
Mar 6th 2011, 05:49 PM
If you do not believe I am The Almighty God, my blood won't take care of your sins, you will go to hell (John 8:24-27).

LookingUp
Mar 6th 2011, 11:14 PM
Is the Deity of Christ essential for true saving faith?! If not, what is the essential?! If so, why?!

Either way, scripture please.


I affirm the Deity of Christ. I don't see a mandate in scripture that says it is a requirement.So...has anyone provided a scripture that says affirming the deity of Christ is a requirement for salvation?

Raybob
Mar 7th 2011, 12:30 AM
So...has anyone provided a scripture that says affirming the deity of Christ is a requirement for salvation?

Servant89 just did.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
(Joh 8:23-27)

LookingUp
Mar 7th 2011, 12:43 AM
Servant89 just did.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
(Joh 8:23-27)First of all, can you highlight where it says "deity" or God, please. Secondly, do you really think every human being who has ever lived since the cross has heard or read these words?

Raybob
Mar 7th 2011, 12:53 AM
First of all, can you highlight where it says "deity" or God, please. Secondly, do you really think every human being who has ever lived since the cross has heard or read these words?

I'm sorry but you won't find the word "deity" in the bible. You will find the definition of the word in the words of Jesus in, "I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." It being basic to "salvation" is found in His next words after what I just showed you, "for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

I can't speak for every human being who has ever lived. I'm sure God knows their hearts.

LookingUp
Mar 7th 2011, 12:57 AM
I'm sorry but you won't find the word "deity" in the bible. You will find the definition of the word in the words of Jesus in, "I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." It being basic to "salvation" is found in His next words after what I just showed you, "for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

I can't speak for every human being who has ever lived. I'm sure God knows their hearts.So one is deity if one is "from above"?

Neanias
Mar 7th 2011, 01:17 AM
I think the answer is both 'Yes' and 'No'. :)

Haha... Yes, that might be confusing.

Can you be forgiven without knowing that Jesus is the Christ? Like episkopos said, do you need to know someone is a lifeguard for him to save you from drowning? The 'Good Samaritan' was actually the one who wasn't religious. The Samaritan's were not the faithful Jews, they were the unfaithful ones that had mixed with heathens... The Good Samaritan could be, today, a Muslim ditch digger... All he does is truly love his neighbor. To he who much is given much is required, and if you never are given a revelation of Christ, it is not required that you are perfect and like him, but that you love your neighbor.

On the other hand, you can be saved from the power of sin without Christ, and you cannot walk in his power without knowing him. It's quite simple, you can love your neighbor and be just without knowing it, and unknowingly obeying him to that level. But you cannot accomplish the perfect will of God without his leading and his regeneration.

LookingUp
Mar 7th 2011, 01:25 AM
So one is deity if one is "from above"?Raybob, are you still there? Can the statement that one is deity if one is from above be challenged? Guess I should ask, am I the only one that thinks that being from above doesn't necessarily mean one is God or deity?

Raybob
Mar 7th 2011, 01:44 AM
Raybob, are you still there? Can the statement that one is deity if one is from above be challenged? Guess I should ask, am I the only one that thinks that being from above doesn't necessarily mean one is God or deity?

Only challenged by the devil if you believe these passages are true:

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
(Joh 3:31)

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
(Joh 8:23)

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
(Rom 10:6)

But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
(Jas 3:14-17)

LookingUp
Mar 7th 2011, 02:00 AM
Only challenged by the devil if you believe these passages are true:

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
(Joh 3:31)

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
(Joh 8:23)

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
(Rom 10:6)

But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
(Jas 3:14-17)So, you’re saying that all true Christians will agree that if one is from above that means one is God?

Jesus said, “I am from above…I am not of this world.” He also said of his disciples that they were not of this world (John 15:19). If Jesus was not of this world and instead from above, where were his disciples from if they were not of this world?

Look at John 3:31-36 to discover who it is we are to believe Christ is. “I am he” does not refer to his deity. It does relate to him from being from above sent by God and being given all authority, though.

You and Servant89 offer John 8:23-27 as evidence that one must affirm Christ’s deity to be saved. In John 8, Jesus is giving people the option to believe or not believe. My question to you about “every human being who has ever lived” was asked because there are those who have never been given the option. They’ve died without knowing about Christ at all or they’ve died knowing Christ died for their sins but never knowing there was an option to believe he was deity or God. What do you say about those folks? Were they saved even though they didn’t affirm Christ’s deity?

Vhayes
Mar 7th 2011, 02:33 AM
You have to know someone before you can really "know" them. i can say all day long that I believe in this storybook Jesus - the one with the blonde hair and blue eyes - the one who walked around in a robe and sandals.

And yes, that may be all I know of Him when I am/was first saved. But the longer I am around Him, listen to Him, read about Him, the more I get to know about Him - Who is is, what He loves, what He holds in disdain.

That's the reason Jesus said unless you know Him and believe that He is the Great I AM, you will die in your sins.

I offer these verses:
25 - But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.

26 - "It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,

27 - and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;

28 - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Who but God has the currency to pay the ransom for all mankind?

RollTide21
Mar 7th 2011, 02:56 PM
Your quandry about the question IS the question. Is salvific faith in Jesus for specifically who/what He is? Or is salvific faith in Jesus regardless who/what He is?

Is there a distinction between ignorance and specificity? IOW, a Unitarian specifically believing in Jesus as the Son of God but that He is NOT Deity, versus someone who simply doesn't realize or recognize His Deity?I gotcha.

I would say that simple salvific Faith is based on Jesus, regardless of who we think He is. The Holy Spirit justifies us by the Name of Jesus. There are many who have called on His Name and received His Spirit but do not rightly understand who He was.

RollTide21
Mar 7th 2011, 03:00 PM
I don't see how someone cannot believe in the diety of Christ? Isn't that the basic of belief in Christianity, when one accepts Jesus as Saviour - that Jesus was the son of God, he died on the cross for our sins. He was raised from the dead, he went to be with the father and sent the Holy Spirit.

Mt 1:20-23 affirms the diety of Christ.
(Mat 1:20 NIV) But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

(Mat 1:21 NIV) She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

(Mat 1:22 NIV) All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:

(Mat 1:23 NIV) "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."I don't think the question is whether or not Jesus is "a deity" (or of a divine nature). The question is whether or not we must believe that Jesus is God (Deity of Christ....with a capital "D").

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 7th 2011, 07:46 PM
I'm appreciative of all the responses, but I still see inference more than implication. All the passages from John, Romans, etc. can reinforce a Jesus-Deity belief, but not establish it for someone who challenges the inferences.

I think there are a few Greek renderings that accomplish it much more clearly; and Jesus being in the form (morphe 3444) of God (Philippians 2:6-7) is the clencher. I just think it's presumptuous to present the Deity of Christ as the central core of salvific faith, just as it is to present Trinity as such.

notuptome
Mar 7th 2011, 08:03 PM
I don't know but I would include Heb 1 in the list. Yet a belief in the diety of Christ may not be essential to coming to a saving knowledge of Christ but the indwelling Holy Spirit will certainly produce it afterwards. It really seems to me to be trying to split frogs hairs. Same with the trinity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

LookingUp
Mar 7th 2011, 08:07 PM
Many admit that belief in the deity of Christ is not necessary to coming to a saving knowledge of Christ, but I'm the only one who put "no" in the poll. Why's that?

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 7th 2011, 09:27 PM
Many admit that belief in the deity of Christ is not necessary to coming to a saving knowledge of Christ, but I'm the only one who put "no" in the poll. Why's that?

I'm beyond the 51%+ mark that would be considered "by preponderance of the evidence", but still short of the 80% that is "beyond reasonable doubt". I'm getting close, at 70%+ for NO.

I think it's tied to faith more than formula.

LookingUp
Mar 7th 2011, 09:35 PM
I'm beyond the 51%+ mark that would be considered "by preponderance of the evidence", but still short of the 80% that is "beyond reasonable doubt". I'm getting close, at 70%+ for NO.

I think it's tied to faith more than formula.So you're keeping track of the posts...70% for no, huh? Thanks for letting me know. Why doesn't everyone post/vote on the poll?

RollTide21
Mar 7th 2011, 09:42 PM
Many admit that belief in the deity of Christ is not necessary to coming to a saving knowledge of Christ, but I'm the only one who put "no" in the poll. Why's that?I think that, until the thread got going, there was confusion about whether the Deity of Christ were necessary for us to be saved...or...did we need to understand and believe the Deity of Christ BEFORE we could be saved.

BroRog
Mar 8th 2011, 01:21 AM
I don't know but I would include Heb 1 in the list. Yet a belief in the diety of Christ may not be essential to coming to a saving knowledge of Christ but the indwelling Holy Spirit will certainly produce it afterwards. It really seems to me to be trying to split frogs hairs. Same with the trinity.

For the cause of Christ
RogerHebews chapter one is an argument in favor of the human nature of the Messiah, not the deity of the messiah.

notuptome
Mar 8th 2011, 01:34 AM
Hebews chapter one is an argument in favor of the human nature of the Messiah, not the deity of the messiah.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of glory, and the express image of His person and upholding all things by the word of His power when He had by Himself purged our sins sat don on th eright hand of the Magesty on high.

What was I thinking sounds purely human to me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Servant89
Mar 8th 2011, 02:10 AM
I read the entire JW's NT which was corrupted on purpose. They eliminated every instance that Jesus said "I AM HE". All but one (which it just so happens is the most important of them all). That tells me God controlled even that version so they would have no excuse in the day of Judgment.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

That is when the saints of God say... AMEN !

Shalom

That is the clincher right there. I have to stop talking to myself.

Shalom

PneumaPsucheSoma
Mar 8th 2011, 04:11 AM
That is the clincher right there. I have to stop talking to myself.

Shalom

I certainly see it, but Unitarians have quite a strong refutation for this passage as well.

The best thing is, it only takes one Greek rendering to establish Jesus' Deity and all the rest of the dominoes fall Deity. Non-Deity has to withstand every verse and Greek rendering. If nowhere else, that is morphe (G3444) as used in Philippians.

One and done.

"Who, being (huparchon G5225pap) in (en G1722pre) the form (morphe G3444art/nn) of God (Theos G2316an/nn),..." -Philippians 2:6a

According to this passage, it is impossible for Jesus NOT to be Deity. Anybody want the exegesis? (It supports my Divinity view and largely precludes trinity.)

LookingUp
Mar 8th 2011, 04:28 AM
That is the clincher right there. I have to stop talking to myself.

Shalom"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is"...what? God? Deity? What?

"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31).

No matter how much I believe in the deity of Jesus, I will try not to twist the text to say that he is when the text doesn't say it, and I still don't see where John 8 says it.

Verse 27 is referring back to "he" and "him" in verse 26, not Jesus.

BroRog
Mar 8th 2011, 04:25 PM
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of glory, and the express image of His person and upholding all things by the word of His power when He had by Himself purged our sins sat don on th eright hand of the Magesty on high.

What was I thinking sounds purely human to me.

For the cause of Christ
RogerOne verse doesn't make a chapter. :)