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VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 06:25 PM
Simple question. Does God still judge people today?

You have some who believe that God no longer judges anyone today because all of His judgment was placed upon Jesus when He was on the cross.

You have others who believe God does still bring judgment against people.

I used to be firmly in the first group. Now, I'm more in line with the second. What say you?

Servant89
Mar 9th 2011, 06:43 PM
Simple question. Does God still judge people today?

You have some who believe that God no longer judges anyone today because all of His judgment was placed upon Jesus when He was on the cross.

You have others who believe God does still bring judgment against people.

I used to be firmly in the first group. Now, I'm more in line with the second. What say you?

God the Father retired as a judge:

Jn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

God the Son retired as a judge also:

Jn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

But I am different, he spanks me often times.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 9th 2011, 06:49 PM
Also, there are 3 chapters in the Bible that explain why the wicked prospers and seems to go through little suffering.

Psalm 37
Psalm 73
Job 21

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 9th 2011, 06:51 PM
When we judge others, it is coming back to us (Mat 7:1) because the word of God says so. The Bible is the one doing the judging (John 12:47-48).

Shalom

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 06:55 PM
I'll throw this hat in the ring . . .

1 Corinthians 11:30-32
For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Servant89
Mar 9th 2011, 06:58 PM
I'll throw this hat in the ring . . .

1 Corinthians 11:30-32
For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

That is how he treats all his children. We are family!

Shalom

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 07:15 PM
Plenty of Scripture speaks of God's judgment after the cross. Seems a no-brainer to me. Certainly folks can live in that fantasy land that believes God don't do that sort of thing anymore but be assured... that's just fantasy land. Bar-Jesus, Annanias and his wife, etc... I suspect they could testify of that judgment after the cross for those that want Scripture reference.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 07:16 PM
Plenty of Scripture speaks of God's judgment after the cross. Seems a no-brainer to me. Certainly folks can live in that fantasy land that believes God don't do that sort of thing anymore but be assured... that's just fantasy land. Bar-Jesus, Annanias and his wife, etc... I suspect they could testify of that judgment after the cross for those that want Scripture reference.

On another note, what would you say was God's avenue of judgment?

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 07:17 PM
Anything he wants.

People seem to have a hard time separating the concept of judgment from that of wrath.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 07:17 PM
On another note, what would you say was God's avenue of judgment?

I don't know that God travels one avenue. Like I tell folks often... big fish come in many forms. :)

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 07:19 PM
I don't know that God travels one avenue. Like I tell folks often... big fish come in many forms. :)

What I'm getting at is this. With Ananias and Saphira, I think God judged and Satan carried out the sentence.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 07:19 PM
Anything he wants.

People seem to have a hard time separating the concept of judgment from that of wrath.

They are close perhaps... different... but close. Neither side a good thing but judgment isn't always wrathful but wrath is always wrath thus a bad end of the stick to be on.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 07:21 PM
What I'm getting at is this. With Ananias and Saphira, I think God judged and Satan carried out the sentence.Nah... I believe God doled it out. Same with Bar-Jesus... same as with Aaron's sons.. the folks that went against Moses... Sodom... etc. I think when God pours out His wrath on someone after judgment deeming that wrath... God does it all by Himself.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 07:21 PM
What I'm getting at is this. With Ananias and Saphira, I think God judged and Satan carried out the sentence.

On what is that based? I think God is more than capable of opening up a can of whoopcamel when he needs to. I'm not aware of God every using Satan to execute judgment.

keck553
Mar 9th 2011, 07:22 PM
I think God is more than capable of opening up a can of whoopcamel when he needs to. .

Kinda like the house of Dathan.....

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 07:23 PM
On what is that based? I think God is more than capable of opening up a can of whoopcamel when he needs to. I'm not aware of God every using Satan to execute judgment.
Yeah... I think folks read too much into Job in that regard. WHat happened with Job wasn't wrath nor judgment on Job. Twas simply a very difficult testing period.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 07:23 PM
Kinda like the house of Dathan.....

Another fine example.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 07:28 PM
On what is that based? I think God is more than capable of opening up a can of whoopcamel when he needs to. I'm not aware of God every using Satan to execute judgment.

I'll use the passover example.

Exodus 12:22-23
And you shall take a bunch of hyssop, dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin. And none of you shall go out of the door of his house until morning. For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you.

And also . . .

1 Corinthians 10:6-10
Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.

Considering these passages of scripture with those like John 10:10 . . .

John 10:10
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

It is our adversary that destroys. He is the destroyer. So, I think the scriptures bear out that God passes judgment and He uses Satan as His administrator of sentencing.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 07:45 PM
Sorry, but the Angel of Death at the Passover was God's angel, not Satan's.

The Angel of Death that destroyed those bitten by serpents in the wilderness was God's Angel, not Satan's.

John 10 has nothing to do with God's righteous judgment.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:01 PM
Sorry, but the Angel of Death at the Passover was God's angel, not Satan's.

I wasn't saying it was Satan's angel. I was saying it was Satan himself.


The Angel of Death that destroyed those bitten by serpents in the wilderness was God's Angel, not Satan's.

Again, I wasn't saying anything about this concept of Satan's angels.


John 10 has nothing to do with God's righteous judgment.

I did not say John 10:10 was talking about God judging. I said John 10:10 says our adversary comes to steal, kill and destroy.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 08:08 PM
But you are erring in trying to link the word "destroy" in John with the previous passages.

God sent his angel to kill at the Passover and in the wilderness. That wasn't Satan. It was God's angel.

The Flood was God's work, not Satan's.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:15 PM
But you are erring in trying to link the word "destroy" in John with the previous passages.

God sent his angel to kill at the Passover and in the wilderness. That wasn't Satan. It was God's angel.

The Flood was God's work, not Satan's.

It's okay with me if you think I'm "erring." I do not believe I am. Regardless, it isn't really the topic of the thread.

I think scripture goes out of its way to say who our adversary and destroyer is, and it isn't God.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 08:17 PM
It's okay with me if you think I'm "erring." I do not believe I am. Regardless, it isn't really the topic of the thread.

I think scripture goes out of its way to say who our adversary and destroyer is, and it isn't God.So... God doesn't destroy? He builds up but also tears down VR! God don't need the devil as His "go to guy" for the dirty work. I think that portrays a poor picture of God in a variety of ways.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:22 PM
So... God doesn't destroy? He builds up but also tears down VR! God don't need the devil as His "go to guy" for the dirty work. I think that portrays a poor picture of God in a variety of ways.

Did God not use something other than Himself to bring the destruction in the examples I gave previously? What did God use with Israel? Foreign armies. Locusts. Grasshoppers. Plagues.

So on and so on. I believe all those things are the product of our adversary. I believe what happened to Israel is an allegorical representation of what happens to us. When Israel was disobedient they were judged by God, and what followed was the adversary, whether it be armies, plagues or locusts, coming to invade their land in order to bring destruction.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 08:25 PM
Sorry, bro, but you're just off.

What is the basis for your belief that God doesn't knock the snot out of goobs when he needs to do so?

If God sends a locust, it's still God's locust. If God sends a flood, it's still his water. If God sends a whirlwind, it's still his whirlwind. Sometimes, he does use people/armies/nations. But that does not in any way mean that he leaves that task to Satan.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:29 PM
Sorry, bro, but you're just off.

What is the basis for your belief that God doesn't knock the snot out of goobs when he needs to do so?

If God sends a locust, it's still God's locust. If God sends a flood, it's still his water. If God sends a whirlwind, it's still his whirlwind. Sometimes, he does use people/armies/nations. But that does not in any way mean that he leaves that task to Satan.

I don't think you're following me. Those foreign armies, locusts and such are the allegorical depiction of our adversary.

In other words, I'm not saying that Satan sent foreign armies, locusts and so on. I'm saying Satan is the foreign armies, locusts and so on. And, again, I realize you think I'm off. I understand that's what you think. But please understand also, I think the same of you.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 08:30 PM
Did God not use something other than Himself to bring the destruction in the examples I gave previously? What did God use with Israel? Foreign armies. Locusts. Grasshoppers. Plagues.

So on and so on. I believe all those things are the product of our adversary. I believe what happened to Israel is an allegorical representation of what happens to us. When Israel was disobedient they were judged by God, and what followed was the adversary, whether it be armies, plagues or locusts, coming to invade their land in order to bring destruction.
Again... God has no one formula. He can use hail (which He controls by the way) and He can use floods (which He too controls) and He can use locus, frogs, and pink flamingo's I suspect. He can also simply cause someone to die... fire to come down from heaven... or worms to bust out their bellies.

Herod is a good example. He did more work for the devil than the devil did himself... gotta figure the devil wouldn't have said " you know... think I'll kill him now because he's up there acting like he is God." Call that a hunch on my part... but the devil is the devil... not stupid. :)

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 08:31 PM
Who needs an allegory when the reality is present?

God sent his Angel of Death at the Passover. To destroy . To kill. You don't have to allegorize that.

I don't have a clue what you're trying to get across. It sounds like granola.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:35 PM
Who needs an allegory when the reality is present?

You should realize that's a silly question considering that a large portion of the bible is allegory.


God sent his Angel of Death at the Passover. To destroy . To kill. You don't have to allegorize that.

I didn't say that was an allegory. I'm also not saying God didn't send it. I'm saying the one sent was Satan. You seem to be pretty contentious.


I don't have a clue what you're trying to get across.

I see that.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:36 PM
Again... God has no one formula. He can use hail (which He controls by the way) and He can use floods (which He too controls).

Yet, at the same time I don't think Jesus rebuked His Father.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 08:36 PM
I don't think you're following me. Those foreign armies, locusts and such are the allegorical depiction of our adversary.

In other words, I'm not saying that Satan sent foreign armies, locusts and so on. I'm saying Satan is the foreign armies, locusts and so on. And, again, I realize you think I'm off. I understand that's what you think. But please understand also, I think the same of you.I hear what you're saying and I think that satan can certainly pull plenty of such stunts should he chose to go that route. He too was able to help out the magicians of Pharoah and produce some of the same stuff Moses was doing under the power of God. That being said... there was a point in time where even satan himself couldn't replicate God and His wrath. Again... I think you're painting a picture of God that doesn't do God justice.

God doesn't kill or destroy... the devil does. So when God says I AM GOING TO DO THIS OR THAT... He's not really doing this or that but only "allowing" the devil to do this or that. It's a gross stretch of the book of Job and it's been taught that way a while now I understand... especially in the WOF camp. Problem is... that's simply saying God did it by proxy but God can legalistically claim He did no such. We don't need to and need to stop apologizing for God. Fact... if God wanted to cause the computer monitor to whirl off the stand and into my face right now... God don't need the devil to do that for Him.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 08:37 PM
Yet, at the same time I don't think Jesus rebuked His Father.Jesus didn't rebuke the devil either. He simply told the wind and waves to be still. They obeyed.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 08:39 PM
Since when does Satan obey God?

And no, not much of the bible is allegory.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:43 PM
God doesn't kill or destroy... the devil does. So when God says I AM GOING TO DO THIS OR THAT... He's not really doing this or that but only "allowing" the devil to do this or that. It's a gross stretch of the book of Job and it's been taught that way a while now I understand... especially in the WOF camp. Problem is... that's simply saying God did it by proxy but God can legalistically claim He did no such. We don't need to and need to stop apologizing for God. Fact... if God wanted to cause the computer monitor to whirl off the stand and into my face right now... God don't need the devil to do that for Him.

Actually, I didn't mention the book of Job. I've pointed out very clear scriptures that state God didn't do . . . the destroyer did. And those scriptures make a clear destinction that God isn't the destroyer being spoken of.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:44 PM
Since when does Satan obey God?

And no, not much of the bible is allegory.

Oh, you think Satan is some rogue agent that can do whatever he wants, eh?

And yes, a large portion of the bible is allegory. It is so for a reason. Regardless, I don't see us agreeing, so not worth much more discussion.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 08:45 PM
In Exodus, God says "I WILL KILL THEM."

In the wilderness, God says "I WILL KILL THEM."

You have not showed me a single Scripture that says God is not that destroyer.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 08:46 PM
Yes, Satan is a rogue that answers to no one. He is limited only when God chooses to specifically limit him.

Please identify for me the portions of the bible that you believe are allegory.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 08:47 PM
Actually, I didn't mention the book of Job. I've pointed out very clear scriptures that state God didn't do . . . the destroyer did. And those scriptures make a clear destinction that God isn't the destroyer being spoken of.They don't make any such distinction so no clue why you think that. I think you are over-using the John passage if that's the best you have. You say they are "clear" but VR... that's a myth in your own mind. ;)

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 08:48 PM
Oh, you think Satan is some rogue agent that can do whatever he wants, eh?

And yes, a large portion of the bible is allegory. It is so for a reason. Regardless, I don't see us agreeing, so not worth much more discussion.

If satan wasn't rogue... then satan isn't satan. That is afterall what got him in the stink he is in now. He went rogue.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:49 PM
Jesus didn't rebuke the devil either. He simply told the wind and waves to be still. They obeyed.

And so He wasn't speaking to His Father; therefore, all weather patterns don't come from Him. Additionally, scripture also bears out that Satan has the ability to use a little weather himself (Now I am referencing Job :) )

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 08:50 PM
Most of the time, weather patterns do come from God, because He created the laws of physics that create them.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:50 PM
In Exodus, God says "I WILL KILL THEM."

In the wilderness, God says "I WILL KILL THEM."

You have not showed me a single Scripture that says God is not that destroyer.

And in Exodus 12 it makes a clear destinction between God and the destroyer. Read the passage I referenced. The only way not to see a destinction there is to blindly hold on to preconceived beliefs.

Regardless, we aren't agreeing, and I just don't feel like arguing with you.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:51 PM
Yes, Satan is a rogue that answers to no one. He is limited only when God chooses to specifically limit him.

Please identify for me the portions of the bible that you believe are allegory.

Then you finally agree that Satan isn't doing whatever he wants. That's exactly what I was saying.

First and foremost, there are numerous types and shadows of the Old. Research that one. Secondly, the book of Revelation is almost entirely allegorical.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:53 PM
If satan wasn't rogue... then satan isn't satan. That is afterall what got him in the stink he is in now. He went rogue.

He went rogue. He apparently invented intimacy with evil out of thin air.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 08:53 PM
Exodus 12 makes no such distinction. Please show it to me. Vs. 29 says distinctly that "At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt"... Please show me the Satan/Destroyer that you long to see in Exodus 12.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 08:57 PM
Exodus 12 makes no such distinction. Please show it to me. Vs. 29 says distinctly that "At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt"... Please show me the Satan/Destroyer that you long to see in Exodus 12.

I already did. Go back and read it again. However, it doesn't matter. I fully expect you to respond the same as you have . . . contentiously. Therefore, I just don't want to waste my time. Have a good one.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 08:57 PM
And so He wasn't speaking to His Father; therefore, all weather patterns don't come from Him. Additionally, scripture also bears out that Satan has the ability to use a little weather himself (Now I am referencing Job :) )Not saying that satan can't whip up some blowing wind, rain, twisters, and even gnarly naked people running around the graveyard. What you are saying is that God doesn't. I am saying very distinctly... sure God can and has and does and will continue to do. It wasn't fire from the devil that consumed Aaron's sons. It wasn't the devil that destroyed Sodom. It wasn't the devil that killed those folks for lying to the Spirit of God.

As to Him speaking to His Father... He wasn't speaking to the devil either. He spoke to the wind and the waves. They don't need either the devil nor God to power them... wind was created to blow. That's what wind does. Jesus had authority over even the wind and the waves and that was the point of it being recorded. Even over the elements themselves. Again... you are reading the devil into a place where there is absolutely nothing implied in that text that it had anything whatsoever to do with satan nor God. That being said... God could have just as well caused that wind to blow so that the disciples faith could be tested and the Son's power shown to magnify God. That would be more implied certainly than it having anything to do with the devil. ;)

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 08:58 PM
He went rogue. He apparently invented intimacy with evil out of thin air.Uh........ huh?

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 08:59 PM
I already did. Go back and read it again. However, it doesn't matter. I fully expect you to respond the same as you have . . . contentiously. Therefore, I just don't want to waste my time. Have a good one.

You posted a passage that spoke of a destroyer. But the passage that he showed is context... does it say the Lord did this or satan? I mean... you're the one that is blowing this off in all fairness VR. Who did it according to Scripture itself?

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 09:00 PM
Uh........ huh?

Saying Satan is a rogue agent is the same as to say he was created to do one thing, and for some strange reason God didn't create him right and he set off to do something different. In order for Adam and Eve to have an intimacy with evil they had to consume of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What tree did Satan eat of?

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 09:01 PM
Saying Satan is a rogue agent is the same as to say he was created to do one thing, and for some strange reason God didn't create him right and he set off to do something different. In order for Adam and Eve to have an intimacy with evil they had to consume of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What tree did Satan eat of?
Uh... Satan ate of no tree. He was before trees. What point are you trying to pull off here because seriously... it seems odd.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 09:03 PM
Saying Satan is a rogue agent is the same as to say he was created to do one thing, and for some strange reason God didn't create him right and he set off to do something different. In order for Adam and Eve to have an intimacy with evil they had to consume of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What tree did Satan eat of?

That's nuts.

Satan, like all the other angels, was created with a free will, which he chose to exercise to his detriment. Satan didn't have to eat any tree to go rogue. God created him perfect, with the freedom of will to ruin his own perfection.

Neither did Adam and Eve. They went rogue and sinned by EATING of the tree, not after eating it. They chose to disobey God as an act of their will prior to touching the tree; the eating wat the consumation of their prior willful disobedience.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 09:04 PM
You posted a passage that spoke of a destroyer. But the passage that he showed is context... does it say the Lord did this or satan? I mean... you're the one that is blowing this off in all fairness VR. Who did it according to Scripture itself?

Exodus 12:23
For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you.

So the Lord is going to pass over the door and not allow himself, who is now being referred to all of a sudden by different terminology, to enter the house and destroy.

How totally ridiculous does that sound? Let me re-translate:

the LORD will pass over the door and not allow the LORD to come into your houses to strike you

Yep. Makes perfect sense.

RollTide21
Mar 9th 2011, 09:05 PM
Trying to understand VR's thought process, here, and get back to the OP...

Assuming we are talking about Believers, I believe that God chastises His own. How is this accomplished? I can certainly testify that I have learned great lessons when God has left me to my own devices and allowed the Enemy to exploit me before redeeming me.

Is this what you were thinking when speaking about God uses Satan as His instrument of Judgement, VR? Maybe I'm off-base with what you are talking about.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 09:06 PM
Uh... Satan ate of no tree. He was before trees. What point are you trying to pull off here because seriously... it seems odd.

So, again you're saying that Satan created evil without having anything to expose him to it? How is that possible?

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 09:06 PM
Exodus 12:23
For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you.

So the Lord is going to pass over the door and not allow himself, who is now being referred to all of a sudden by different terminology, to enter the house and destroy.

How totally ridiculous does that sound? Let me re-translate:

the LORD will pass over the door and not allow the LORD to come into your houses to strike you

Yep. Makes perfect sense.It was a destroyer. That doesn't make it the devil. I suspect God has angels assigned all sorts of task.. Scripture bears that out I would think. Some are assigned to destroy. God does that too.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 09:07 PM
Trying to understand VR's thought process, here, and get back to the OP...

Assuming we are talking about Believers, I believe that God chastises His own. How is this accomplished? I can certainly testify that I have learned great lessons when God has left me to my own devices and allowed the Enemy to exploit me before redeeming me.

Is this what you were thinking when speaking about God uses Satan as His instrument of Judgement, VR? Maybe I'm off-base with what you are talking about.

Yes, I think God will use Satan in that fashion.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 09:07 PM
It was a destroyer. That doesn't make it the devil. I suspect God has angels assigned all sorts of task.. Scripture bears that out I would think. Some are assigned to destroy. God does that too.

Yes, some are assigned to destroy. Couldn't that some be Satan?

RollTide21
Mar 9th 2011, 09:08 PM
Exodus 12:23
For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you.

So the Lord is going to pass over the door and not allow himself, who is now being referred to all of a sudden by different terminology, to enter the house and destroy.

How totally ridiculous does that sound? Let me re-translate:

the LORD will pass over the door and not allow the LORD to come into your houses to strike you

Yep. Makes perfect sense.So you contend that "the destroyer" was an agent of Satan? Obviously it wasn't God Himself, but I assume it was an Angel of God.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 09:08 PM
So, again you're saying that Satan created evil without having anything to expose him to it? How is that possible?

Created evil? Evil isn't a tree, cloud, rock, or mountain lake with a waterfall. Why did it have to be "created"? Satan was the father of it. It was possible because he got big for his britches.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 09:09 PM
So, again you're saying that Satan created evil without having anything to expose him to it? How is that possible?

Evil is not something created. It is the antithesis of God. When you reject God, as Satan did of his own free will,then the result is evil.

Your teaching sounds very similar to that of Andrew Womack...

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 09:09 PM
Satan is God's enemy. Not a close working ally. Ponder that VR. You have a strange outlook of both God and Satan.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 09:10 PM
So you contend that "the destroyer" was an agent of Satan?

No, he thinks the "destroyer" was Satan himself.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 09:10 PM
Created evil? Evil isn't a tree, cloud, rock, or mountain lake with a waterfall. Why did it have to be "created"? Satan was the father of it. It was possible because he got big for his britches.

Okay. He "got big for his britches" how? Are you of the opinion that God also created Satan just as He created man? Do you think God created Satan all pure and holy, and for some strange reason Satan just manifested evil out of nowhere?

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 09:10 PM
So you contend that "the destroyer" was an agent of Satan? Obviously it wasn't God Himself, but I assume it was an Angel of God.

No, I believe Satan is the destroyer.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 09:11 PM
Evil is not something created. It is the antithesis of God. When you reject God, as Satan did of his own free will,then the result is evil.

Your teaching sounds very similar to that of Andrew Womack...Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yes! That's where I heard this! New it... new it!

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 09:16 PM
Okay. He "got big for his britches" how? Are you of the opinion that God also created Satan just as He created man? Do you think God created Satan all pure and holy, and for some strange reason Satan just manifested evil out of nowhere?Strange reason? Not at all. He thought himself God and that is a stupid place to be in your own estimation. God sort of takes offense at that stuff. How God created satan is of not matter to me or you or anyone else. He did and that much we know. I'll not imply any such way because none of us know save the very little written about it. Was he holy ... sure. He was created for God's purpose so in that sense he would have been set apart for some work God wanted done.

As to why satan did that... again... we've very little written and danged if I'd assume. Assuming turns into goofy doctrine which ultimately winds up running into all sort of Scriptural problems... but those implying have a hard time realizing that for some odd reason. I'd just as soon not set myself up for taht stuff with assumptions based on very little. The how's and why's of what the devil did... Scripture tells us little for a purpose I suppose. That's good enough for me.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 09:17 PM
Okay. He "got big for his britches" how? Are you of the opinion that God also created Satan just as He created man? Do you think God created Satan all pure and holy, and for some strange reason Satan just manifested evil out of nowhere?

Scripture is silent on how God created Lucifer/Satan, but it is clear that he is/was (a) created, (b) extremely powerful, (c) the pinnacle of God's creation prior to Genesis. It is likewise clear that Satan was created with free will. Yes, Satan, like all of God's creation, was pure and holy, but exercised his free will to his doom.

the rookie
Mar 9th 2011, 09:28 PM
VR,

I'm not sure I get your point. (Especially the "almost all scripture is allegory" point - I haven't seen you interpret it that way in other discussions)

What is the point of assigning every act of judgment to Satan? What are the practical implications of what you are asserting? What is your scriptural basis for that view (you've quoted a few scriptures, but haven't really laid out a case for it)?

Secondly, as it relates to your OP, why would the God of the OT be different than the God of the NT? (same yesterday, today, forever, immutable, etc.)

If anything, Paul makes a case for an "Old Testament God of mercy" and a "New Testament God of wrath" in Acts 17 and Romans 1 when he says, "Until now, God overlooked ignorance, but now...", which is exactly the opposite of what some believers assume today.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 09:41 PM
Strange reason? Not at all. He thought himself God and that is a stupid place to be in your own estimation.

How could he all of a sudden up and do that? Adam and Eve needed an agent. Satan didn't? What scripture says he was created holy?

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 09:44 PM
What Scripture says he wasn't?

Adam and Eve did not need an agent. Granted, Satan tempted them, but you assume that they could not have made the same choice without Satan. They could have made the same choice without him. God had already established the boundaries...they chose whether to obey or not, regardless of Satan's pushing the issue.

Lucifer was the archangel. He was holy. He worshipped God in God's presence. Then he made a very bad choice.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 09:45 PM
How could he all of a sudden up and do that? Adam and Eve needed an agent. Satan didn't? What scripture says he was created holy?

OK, let's cut to the chase.

You apparently believe that God created Satan as an evil, sinful creation, correct?

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 09:45 PM
How could he all of a sudden up and do that? Adam and Eve needed an agent. Satan didn't? What scripture says he was created holy?

Who says that Adam and Eve needed an agent? That the serpent did what it did... okay. But that didn't make it a rule of some freaky sort.

As to satan... you are trying to compare man with angels. Almost hate to be the one to break it to you... but nothing much we can compare. Two totally different things. Not even apples and oranges because at least they are both fruit. You're trying to compare an apple to a car engine.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 09:45 PM
VR,

I'm not sure I get your point. (Especially the "almost all scripture is allegory" point - I haven't seen you interpret it that way in other discussions)

I'm not saying scripture is allegory in the sense that most of it is not an actual event that happened but rather something like a parable. Take Moses, for example. I believe everything that Moses went through actually happened. However, scripture reveals that many of the things he spoke pointed to something much deeper spiritually. Hebrews 8:5 is an example of that.


What is the point of assigning every act of judgment to Satan?

I didn't assign any judgment to Satan. The judgment comes from God. I simply believe God uses Satab to administer His judgment. I don't think it's as an ally, as PP attempted to assert earlier, just like I don't think the tormenters in Matthew 18 are the allies of God. However, God stilled used them.


What are the practical implications of what you are asserting? What is your scriptural basis for that view (you've quoted a few scriptures, but haven't really laid out a case for it)?

Practical applications to what?

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 09:47 PM
Who says that Adam and Eve needed an agent? That the serpent did what it did... okay. But that didn't make it a rule of some freaky sort.

As to satan... you are trying to compare man with angels. Almost hate to be the one to break it to you... but nothing much we can compare. Two totally different things. Not even apples and oranges because at least they are both fruit. You're trying to compare an apple to a car engine.

Your views of Satan seem a little odd to me. In your opinion, what exactly did God create Satan for? Does Satan have any purpose whatsoever? If not, why is Satan still around?

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 09:48 PM
Your views of Satan seem a little odd to me. In your opinion, what exactly did God create Satan for? Does Satan have any purpose whatsoever? If not, why is Satan still around?God didn't see fit to ask my advice on all that. Nor did God see fit to explain it to any of us either. Did He seek your counsel on this... if so dazzle us! If not... you're assuming a lot. ;) Fact still... trying to compare angelic beings with humans... apples and car engines.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 09:58 PM
That's apples and Studebakers...get it right.

God created Lucifer to be the epitome of his creation, short of man, who was created later. God created Lucifer for the same general purpose as everything else...to glorify God.

Lucifer just chose to reject God and do his own thing.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 09:59 PM
God didn't see fit to ask my advice on all that. Nor did God see fit to explain it to any of us either. Did He seek your counsel on this... if so dazzle us! If not... you're assuming a lot. ;) Fact still... trying to compare angelic beings with humans... apples and car engines.

Nice dodge of the question.

From what I can gather, you do not seem to think Satan does much of anything but rather most of what happens is God. Satan isn't the destroyer. Satan apparently isn't an adversary coming against Israel. In reality, it is apparently God that is the adversary coming against Israel. Is that the same for us Christians today? Is God our adversary? Is it God we should be concerned with as the one who may bring destruction our way?

I'm a bit confused as to what you think Satan actually does. Does he just go about trying to trick people into sinning like some little jokester or something?

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 10:06 PM
Nice dodge of the question.

From what I can gather, you do not seem to think Satan does much of anything but rather most of what happens is God. Satan isn't the destroyer. Satan apparently isn't an adversary coming against Israel. In reality, it is apparently God that is the adversary coming against Israel. Is that the same for us Christians today? Is God our adversary? Is it God we should be concerned with as the one who may bring destruction our way?

I'm a bit confused as to what you think Satan actually does. Does he just go about trying to trick people into sinning like some little jokester or something?
You gather all that from my post? WoW! You are truly a marvel at reading into what isn't there! ;)

Show me where I said that Satan isn't a destroyer?

Show me anywhere where I said Satan wasn't an adversary?

Actually... just show where I even implied any such thing as that? Geeze... of all people you should know better than that as well as trying to use that lame tactic simply because you disagree with me. :rolleyes: And you dang well know it wasn;t a dodge. I don't dodge anything... never have and likely won't. If I didn't want to answer you then I'd of simply not responded to you... there would be no need to dodge.

Like I said... God didn't see fit to share with me nor you nor any of us a whole bunch on Satan. What with Scripture being primarily about God and all.

But do us all a favor. Can the goofy tactics of trying to make it where I am saying something that simple English skill won't allow for. That makes discussion fruitful even if we disagree.

the rookie
Mar 9th 2011, 10:07 PM
I'm not saying scripture is allegory in the sense that most of it is not an actual event that happened but rather something like a parable. Take Moses, for example. I believe everything that Moses went through actually happened. However, scripture reveals that many of the things he spoke pointed to something much deeper spiritually. Hebrews 8:5 is an example of that.

Sure, but the "deeper allegory" points can get us into a bit of trouble - there's another thread going about that - deductive versus inductive reasoning (eisegesis v. exegesis)


I didn't assign any judgment to Satan. The judgment comes from God. I simply believe God uses Satab to administer His judgment. I don't think it's as an ally, as PP attempted to assert earlier, just like I don't think the tormenters in Matthew 18 are the allies of God. However, God stilled used them.

Sure, that can be true - but why does it have to be exclusively true (as the only means by which God executes judgment)? The book of Revelation, for example, has 19 out of 21 judgments executed by God Himself, apart from Satan - in fact, partly for the purpose of dislodging him; first from the 2nd heaven and then, ultimately, from the earth itself.


Practical applications to what?

The "why" behind the "what" - why would God execute judgment indirectly and only utilize Satan?

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 10:08 PM
Actually, Jesus said that we should not fear those that can destroy the body, but instead, He who can destroy both body and soul. God.

He is the ultimate destroyer.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 11:28

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 10:12 PM
You gather all that from my post? WoW! You are truly a marvel at reading into what isn't there! ;)

Show me where I said that Satan isn't a destroyer?

Show me anywhere where I said Satan wasn't an adversary?

Actually... just show where I even implied any such thing as that? Geeze... of all people you should know better than that as well as trying to use that lame tactic simply because you disagree with me. :rolleyes: And you dang well know it wasn;t a dodge. I don't dodge anything... never have and likely won't. If I didn't want to answer you then I'd of simply not responded to you... there would be no need to dodge.

Like I said... God didn't see fit to share with me nor you nor any of us a whole bunch on Satan. What with Scripture being primarily about God and all.

But do us all a favor. Can the goofy tactics of trying to make it where I am saying something that simple English skill won't allow for. That makes discussion fruitful even if we disagree.

This is another strange statement. God doesn't see fit to share with us very much about a being set out to destroy us? A being that is apparently "rogue" and does pretty much anything he wants to do? That's sort of odd.

Oh, and I'm using no "goofy" tactics. I'm simply challenging your doctrine. I can do that, ya know. So, is God our adversary? Destroyer? Etc.?

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 10:17 PM
Sure, but the "deeper allegory" points can get us into a bit of trouble - there's another thread going about that - deductive versus inductive reasoning (eisegesis v. exegesis)

So, which person do you think has this line figured out? Which person should I look to and say, "You know what, this person knows where the line is. They see everything there is to see in the scriptures"? Who have you determined is the end all to seeing everything allegorical in scripture, and then being qualified to say, "You know what, there is nothing else to see here"?


Sure, that can be true - but why does it have to be exclusively true (as the only means by which God executes judgment)? The book of Revelation, for example, has 19 out of 21 judgments executed by God Himself, apart from Satan - in fact, partly for the purpose of dislodging him; first from the 2nd heaven and then, ultimately, from the earth itself.

I'm not speaking here of God's exhaustive list of methods to use. I'm simply showing how God does indeed use Satan. Satan is not some loose cannon out there firing at will. Such thinking is absurd.



The "why" behind the "what" - why would God execute judgment indirectly and only utilize Satan?

Why is God using Satan as an instrument of judgment considered to be indirect?

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 10:18 PM
This is another strange statement. God doesn't see fit to share with us very much about a being set out to destroy us? A being that is apparently "rogue" and does pretty much anything he wants to do? That's sort of odd.

Oh, and I'm using no "goofy" tactics. I'm simply challenging your doctrine. I can do that, ya know. So, is God our adversary? Destroyer? Etc.?

If we stray from him far enough, yes.

Matthew 11:28

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 10:19 PM
Define "allegory" for me, please, because we are obviously not using the same working definition.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 10:26 PM
This is another strange statement. God doesn't see fit to share with us very much about a being set out to destroy us? A being that is apparently "rogue" and does pretty much anything he wants to do? That's sort of odd.

Oh, and I'm using no "goofy" tactics. I'm simply challenging your doctrine. I can do that, ya know. So, is God our adversary? Destroyer? Etc.?Many of the church have an enemy in God... you can rest assured there. His people... naturally not. As to the devil doing anything he wants... it's his domain here. He's the ruler so yeah... he can do pretty much what he wants and does. Certainly you don't think God is ruling and reigning on the earth eh?

As to challenging my doctrine... you are certainly free to do so. Just do it honestly.

the rookie
Mar 9th 2011, 10:32 PM
So, which person do you think has this line figured out? Which person should I look to and say, "You know what, this person knows where the line is. They see everything there is to see in the scriptures"? Who have you determined is the end all to seeing everything allegorical in scripture, and then being qualified to say, "You know what, there is nothing else to see here"?

You're actually making my point. The Bible isn't "Pilgrim's Progress". Citing allegory makes things a bit subjective unless there are clear literary and historical precedents in the word to interpret the word in that manner (i.e. Song of Solomon)


I'm not speaking here of God's exhaustive list of methods to use. I'm simply showing how God does indeed use Satan. Satan is not some loose cannon out there firing at will. Such thinking is absurd.

I suppose I'm not understanding you. Rev. 12 certainly presents him in that manner, by the way. Peter did as well. Beyond that, are you saying that God's exclusive methodology to execute judgment is to utilize Satan?


Why is God using Satan as an instrument of judgment considered to be indirect?

The Godfather versus the hitman.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 10:32 PM
Many of the church have an enemy in God... you can rest assured there. His people... naturally not. As to the devil doing anything he wants... it's his domain here. He's the ruler so yeah... he can do pretty much what he wants and does. Certainly you don't think God is ruling and reigning on the earth eh?

So, if the devil is the ruler and this is his domain, what authority can we possibly have? The way you're speaking we ought to fear the devil greatly because he has more power than we do.


As to challenging my doctrine... you are certainly free to do so. Just do it honestly.

I don't consider anything I've stated here dishonest.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 10:35 PM
So, if the devil is the ruler and this is his domain, what authority can we possibly have? The way you're speaking we ought to fear the devil greatly because he has more power than we do. [quote]We have the authority of Christ VR. Can make the wind and sea obey too if faith is strong enough in that authority. As to fear the devil? Why would anything I say make it sound like that? If a person has the authority of Christ and even the wind and sea obeyed... what's to fear? Only thing any believer needs to fear is God... anyone else for that matter.

[quote]I don't consider anything I've stated here dishonest.The things you imply that I am saying is not only false... it was grossly false. Call that what you want.

the rookie
Mar 9th 2011, 10:36 PM
So, if the devil is the ruler and this is his domain...

What does Paul mean in Ephesians 2:1-3?

One can have authority when one has been escorted from one kingdom to another, and now acts as a representative of that world speaking to this one before the takeover. As for the course of this world, it is already set by the prince and his sons.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 10:37 PM
You're actually making my point. The Bible isn't "Pilgrim's Progress". Citing allegory makes things a bit subjective unless there are clear literary and historical precedents in the word to interpret the word in that manner (i.e. Song of Solomon)

I'm not following you here.


I suppose I'm not understanding you. Rev. 12 certainly presents him in that manner, by the way. Peter did as well. Beyond that, are you saying that God's exclusive methodology to execute judgment is to utilize Satan?

Rev. 12 and Peter present Satan as what, a loose cannon firing at will? Peter would know better than that. It was Peter, in fact, that Satan had to petition God to sift as wheat. If Satan was a loose can there would have been no petitioning.


The Godfather versus the hitman.

When God gives the people in Romans 1 over to a debased mind is this indirect? Who do you think a debased mind is given over to?

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 10:41 PM
The things you imply that I am saying is not only false... it was grossly false. Call that what you want.

I call it asking you questions based upon what I have to read into your comments since you aren't really coming out and saying much about what you believe. What I can seem to gather from your posts is that Satan is not up to much. In fact, I should be more worried about God getting me from what I'm reading in this thread.

the rookie
Mar 9th 2011, 10:42 PM
I'm not following you here.

The Bible isn't mostly allegorical, or orthodoxy would be difficult to obtain with all of the subjectivity.


Rev. 12 and Peter present Satan as what, a loose cannon firing at will? Peter would know better than that. It was Peter, in fact, that Satan had to petition God to sift as wheat. If Satan was a loose can there would have been no petitioning.

"Loose cannon" is one manner of speaking. "Free agency" or "free will" is another.


When God gives the people in Romans 1 over to a debased mind is this indirect? Who do you think a debased mind is given over to?

As I said before, Ephesians 2:1-3. Three groups: given over to his own nature, given over to the couse of the world, and given over to their father, the devil, the prince of the power of the air who sets the course.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 10:45 PM
The Bible isn't mostly allegorical, or orthodoxy would be difficult to obtain with all of the subjectivity.

Based upon whose opinion? Again, this goes back to my question to you. What person have you deemed worthy to say, "There is nothing left to be seen here"?


"Loose cannon" is one manner of speaking. "Free agency" or "free will" is another.

What does Satan's petitioning to God to sift Peter as wheat have to do with "free agency" or "free will"?


As I said before, Ephesians 2:1-3. Three groups: given over to his own nature, given over to the couse of the world, and given over to their father, the devil, the prince of the power of the air who sets the course.

Therefore, the judgment is very direct. God says, "I give you over to the spirit of this world." What's not direct about that?

the rookie
Mar 9th 2011, 10:53 PM
Based upon whose opinion? Again, this goes back to my question to you. What person have you deemed worthy to say, "There is nothing left to be seen here"?

Not my point. I'm sure there is much to see beyond the grammatical / historical, particularly in the areas of the Bible that are poetic and allegorical in nature and meant to be understood that way. My primary paradigms of thought, worldview, and understanding has to be shaped first by what the text says, not what it might say "underneath it all". We have ages with Christ during which I am sure He'll blow our minds. I don't trust myself all that much until then.


What does Satan's petitioning to God to sift Peter as wheat have to do with "free agency" or "free will"?

Jesus didn't say "I asked Satan to do it"; neither did He say "The Father asked Satan..."


Therefore, the judgment is very direct. God says, "I give you over to the spirit of this world." What's not direct about that?

Bit more to it than that.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 10:56 PM
My primary paradigms of thought, worldview, and understanding has to be shaped first by what the text says, not what it might say "underneath it all".

Again, says who? Who have you been listening to that teaches this?


We have ages with Christ during which I am sure He'll blow our minds. I don't trust myself all that much until then.

Trusting self is never advisable. Trusting His Spirit, though, is.


Jesus didn't say "I asked Satan to do it"; neither did He say "The Father asked Satan..."

That wasn't the point being made. The point is that Satan is clearly not a loose cannon firing at will. He does what he is permitted to do.



Bit more to it than that.

Bit more to what?

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 10:57 PM
I call it asking you questions based upon what I have to read into your comments since you aren't really coming out and saying much about what you believe. What I can seem to gather from your posts is that Satan is not up to much. In fact, I should be more worried about God getting me from what I'm reading in this thread.

I think you should certainly be more afraid of God that you are of Satan. Satan doesn't bother me at all. I have a security detail for that.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 10:58 PM
What do you think allegory means?

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 11:00 PM
I call it asking you questions based upon what I have to read into your comments since you aren't really coming out and saying much about what you believe. What I can seem to gather from your posts is that Satan is not up to much. In fact, I should be more worried about God getting me from what I'm reading in this thread.
Uh... based on what? I disagreed with your basic premise therefore I must believe all this junk you imply? Interesting logic you use there. As to fear God... yes, you should.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 11:04 PM
Uh... based on what? I disagreed with your basic premise therefore I must believe all this junk you imply? Interesting logic you use there. As to fear God... yes, you should.

Never said we shouldn't fear God. However, I don't fear my Father like He's about to chop my head off and spit down my throat. Such teaching is a result of defiled religion and not the Spirit of God.

It's amazing to me that 3,000 came to the Lord in one preaching if what I'm seeing from some in this thread is what they preached.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 11:05 PM
Um, what they preached is recorded in Acts, and nothing in this thread has anything to do with that, so what's your point? That you disagree with some?

ANd?

Servant89
Mar 9th 2011, 11:09 PM
Plenty of Scripture speaks of God's judgment after the cross. Seems a no-brainer to me. Certainly folks can live in that fantasy land that believes God don't do that sort of thing anymore but be assured... that's just fantasy land. Bar-Jesus, Annanias and his wife, etc... I suspect they could testify of that judgment after the cross for those that want Scripture reference.

I am jumping fences here. I am with Project Peter on this now.

Shalom

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 11:09 PM
Never said we shouldn't fear God. However, I don't fear my Father like He's about to chop my head off and spit down my throat. Such teaching is a result of defiled religion and not the Spirit of God.

It's amazing to me that 3,000 came to the Lord in one preaching if what I'm seeing from some in this thread is what they preached.

When Jesus told them "I tell you who to fear"... He was speaking to His followers. As well... that word fear isn't of the "reverential awe and respect" variety that folks like to toss up next. It's knee-knocking, wet your pants, kind of fear.

And to note... Peter had a bit of an advantage preaching to the Jews who knew Scripture by and large. They already had a fear of God that a Gentile would not have. Call it a technicality... but it be a big one. ;)

the rookie
Mar 9th 2011, 11:11 PM
Again, says who? Who have you been listening to that teaches this?

Lots of folks from lots of streams. Jesus and the apostles (including Paul) interpreted scripture this way; so did the early church. So the "who have I been listening to" point is a bit off-putting. Scripture on its face is hard enough for folks. Hidden meanings made things a little complicated, back in the day...


Trusting self is never advisable. Trusting His Spirit, though, is.

"Hear in part, know in part..."


That wasn't the point being made. The point is that Satan is clearly not a loose cannon firing at will. He does what he is permitted to do.

Hmmm. Again, "loose cannon" is one way of saying it; "Free will" is another. We all work within the boundaries of His sovereignty and do what we are permitted to do. Yet we have free will to choose what we want to do, and are held accountable to our choices. Satan is judged in like manner.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 11:12 PM
When Jesus told them "I tell you who to fear"... He was speaking to His followers. As well... that word fear isn't of the "reverential awe and respect" variety that folks like to toss up next. It's knee-knocking, wet your pants, kind of fear.

And that is total bunk that is completely made up outside of the bible. The bible teaches about people of God who were deeply in love with their Father. They weren't "wetting their pants" in horror of Him. How absurd. Absolutely shameful.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 11:14 PM
Lots of folks from lots of streams. Jesus and the apostles (including Paul) interpreted scripture this way; so did the early church. So the "who have I been listening to" point is a bit off-putting. Scripture on its face is hard enough for folks. Hidden meanings made things a little complicated, back in the day...

Yet, hidden meanings are clearly declared in the word.


"Hear in part, know in part..."

We know in part not because of His Spirit but because we rely on other men or our own understanding


Hmmm. Again, "loose cannon" is one way of saying it; "Free will" is another. We all work within the boundaries of His sovereignty and do what we are permitted to do. Yet we have free will to choose what we want to do, and are held accountable to our choices. Satan is judged in like manner.

If Satan had free will he would be doing whatever he wants. He's not. I can walk up to someone and do whatever I want to them. That is free will. Satan cannot do that.

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 11:18 PM
So exactly how do you interpret Matthew 10:28? How do you interpret Acts and the story of Annanias and Sapphira? Exactly what "fear" came on the church afterwards?

No one is saying that you have to be terrified of God, unless you are choosing to disobey and remove yourself from his fellowship, in which case you must fear for your soul.

the rookie
Mar 9th 2011, 11:18 PM
Yet, hidden meanings are clearly declared in the word.

Because the word clearly and explicitly tells us where they are ;)


We know in part not because of His Spirit but because we rely on other men or our own understanding

That's not really Paul's point at all in 1 Cor. 14...


If Satan had free will he would be doing whatever he wants. He's not. I can walk up to someone and do whatever I want to them. That is free will. Satan cannot do that.

How do you know?

RabbiKnife
Mar 9th 2011, 11:20 PM
This is starting to get sort of gnosticky.

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 11:24 PM
Because the word clearly and explicitly tells us where they are ;)

It does? Where?


That's not really Paul's point at all in 1 Cor. 14...

It's 1 Corinthians 13, and yes, I believe that is exactly his point. He is saying we know in part because we are still in this world and we don't have full understanding.



How do you know?

How do I know what, that Satan isn't doing whatever he wants? First of all, because we'd all be gone in my opinion. Secondly, if he had free will there would be no need to petition God. Do we have to petition God in order to do something? No, we do not. We should for sure, but we do not.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 11:24 PM
And that is total bunk that is completely made up outside of the bible. The bible teaches about people of God who were deeply in love with their Father. They weren't "wetting their pants" in horror of Him. How absurd. Absolutely shameful.

I'm just sharing the Words of Jesus with you. Sounds like you have a problem with what He said... dont blame me for it.

Matthew 10:25 *"It is enough for the disciple that he become as his teacher, and the slave as his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!
26 *"Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
27 *"What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.
28 *"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


And here is the definition of that there fear word that has you all bothered!

phobeo

Means to be sore afraid.

You gotta contend with that. I already have. ;)

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 11:30 PM
I'm just sharing the Words of Jesus with you. Sounds like you have a problem with what He said... dont blame me for it.

Matthew 10:25 *"It is enough for the disciple that he become as his teacher, and the slave as his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!
26 *"Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
27 *"What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.
28 *"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


And here is the definition of that there fear word that has you all bothered!

phobeo

Means to be sore afraid.

You gotta contend with that. I already have. ;)

And what in the world about that says I should be peeing in my pants right now in horror of God? I mean come on! Talk about using some honesty. Jesus isn't saying anything of the sort. Hard to be at rest and not heavy laden when you're about ready to poop in your pampers at the thought of God. What kind of a loving Father would want their children losing control of their bodily functions at the sight of Him? I can't believe some of the ridiculous things believers are putting out there these days.

Man, that is just a travesty.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 11:36 PM
And what in the world about that says I should be peeing in my pants right now in horror of God? I mean come on! Talk about using some honesty. Jesus isn't saying anything of the sort. Hard to be at rest and not heavy laden when you're about ready to poop in your pampers at the thought of God. What kind of a loving Father would want their children losing control of their bodily functions at the sight of Him? I can't believe some of the ridiculous things believers are putting out there these days.

Man, that is just a travesty.Who did Jesus say to fear in that passage?

Servant89
Mar 9th 2011, 11:38 PM
I am afraid of God. Yes I am. Right now I am passing kidney stones.

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Shalom

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 11:41 PM
I am afraid of God. Yes I am. Right now I am passing kidney stones.

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

ShalomI dare say... were there more fear of Him... there would be less goofy stuff sure enough!

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 11:41 PM
Who did Jesus say to fear in that passage?

Who He is saying to fear isn't what is in question. Why don't we just look at Jesus Himself? Was Jesus peeing in His pants at the thought of His Father? Seems to me He thought very fondly of His Father. You are speaking of our Father like He's just waiting for an opportunity to be abusive toward us. That is absolutely ludicrous. He loves us greatly and wants to bless us abundantly. We are not to fear him in some carnal manner as a beat down child would fear his/her sinful and abusive father. Those who are abused are those who cower in the corner wetting their britches at the sight of their father. Those who are loved and cared for do not respond that way at all.

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 11:45 PM
Who He is saying to fear isn't what is in question. Why don't we just look at Jesus Himself? Was Jesus peeing in His pants at the thought of His Father? Seems to me He thought very fondly of His Father. You are speaking of our Father like He's just waiting for an opportunity to be abusive toward us. That is absolutely ludicrous. He loves us greatly and wants to bless us abundantly. We are not to fear him in some carnal manner as a beat down child would fear his/her sinful and abusive father. Those who are abused are those who cower in the corner wetting their britches at the sight of their father. Those who are loved and cared for do not respond that way at all.Uh... not what I am saying at all. You are doing as before and reading into what you desire because that's what VR does. But fact... Don't fear man. Don't fear satan. Fear God and yes... you should be fearful of Him. Afterall... He can kill your body and soul. Why do you think Jesus told them that?

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 11:51 PM
Uh... not what I am saying at all. You are doing as before and reading into what you desire because that's what VR does. But fact... Don't fear man. Don't fear satan. Fear God and yes... you should be fearful of Him. Afterall... He can kill your body and soul. Why do you think Jesus told them that?

Oh, please! I quoted your words, brother. You are the one who stated we should be wetting our pants in fear of God, and I will certainly not be ashamed in stating that something such as that shouldn't even be thought of in regard to our Father. He has been too good to us to have such a hateful label slapped by His name. He loves us more than we can imagine, and I would be dishonest if I said that such a charge against my Father doesn't get me a tad bit hot under the collar.

I really don't want to be disrespectful here, but such nonsense should not even been considered when thinking of our loving Father.

Dani H
Mar 9th 2011, 11:56 PM
Yes, God judges, still today, and always has.

One interesting principle of God's judgment is that of sowing and reaping. That one works exceedingly well and He doesn't even have to lift a finger.

Then there is nature, where once it's done enough groaning under the weight of sin, starts wigging out.

Do we really think that God hasn't set things up with principles in the background that still operate as originally designed and that aren't going anywhere?

There are times of more direct intervention also.

God's judgment is always righteous. I don't understand why people always connect it negatively or why they're afraid of it. God judges to correct and discipline, so that we don't make a complete mess out of our lives and totally destroy everything in our wanton abandon to our sinful and fallen ways. His judgment is always redemptive and beneficial, with our preservation in mind and not our destruction. I love that God still judges. Makes my heart happy and secure knowing He is still large and in charge. :)

ProjectPeter
Mar 9th 2011, 11:56 PM
Oh, please! I quoted your words, brother. You are the one who stated we should be wetting our pants in fear of God, and I will certainly not be ashamed in stating that something such as that shouldn't even be thought of in regard to our Father. He has been too good to us to have such a hateful label slapped by His name. He loves us more than we can imagine, and I would be dishonest if I said that such a charge against my Father doesn't get me a tad bit hot under the collar.

I really don't want to be disrespectful here, but such nonsense should not even been considered when thinking of our loving Father.That is certainly the fear of God and we need fear Him... He is God.

Again... Jesus said it. Did He not? If Jesus said it... not Ken... why all bunched up instead of simply heeding what Jesus said?

VerticalReality
Mar 9th 2011, 11:59 PM
I love that God still judges. Makes my heart happy and secure knowing He is still large and in charge. :)[/COLOR][/FONT]

I feel the same way. I have been on the disciplinary end of that judgment at times before, and I'm thankful that He loves me enough to do that. There have even been times when He was very patient with me and simply encouraged me. He is just and good in all He does.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 12:01 AM
That is certainly the fear of God and we need fear Him... He is God.

Again... Jesus said it. Did He not? If Jesus said it... not Ken... why all bunched up instead of simply heeding what Jesus said?

Oh, I am heeding it. Just not in the way you think it was intended. I don't need to wet my pants at the thought of my Father. I know that He has nothing but good in mind for me. I have nothing to be scared of because even in His judgment He is working out in me a greater good. Pee my pants? Absolutely not! My God is good, and there is nothing for me to run from. If anything, I need to run closer to Him.

ProjectPeter
Mar 10th 2011, 12:04 AM
Oh, I am heeding it. Just not in the way you think it was intended. I don't need to wet my pants at the thought of my Father. I know that He has nothing but good in mind for me. I have nothing to be scared of because even in His judgment He is working out in me a greater good. Pee my pants? Absolutely not! My God is good, and there is nothing for me to run from. If anything, I need to run closer to Him.Then you certainly aren't heeding the words of Jesus because that is contrary to what Jesus told His disciples. You can argue all you want... Jesus said it. Not me. ;)

keck553
Mar 10th 2011, 12:13 AM
When Jesus told them "I tell you who to fear"... He was speaking to His followers. As well... that word fear isn't of the "reverential awe and respect" variety that folks like to toss up next. It's knee-knocking, wet your pants, kind of fear.

And to note... Peter had a bit of an advantage preaching to the Jews who knew Scripture by and large. They already had a fear of God that a Gentile would not have. Call it a technicality... but it be a big one. ;)

You're darn right it's a big technicality. I tell you, I am beginning to feel the call to strongly oppose the spirit of cotton candy.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 12:16 AM
Then you certainly aren't heeding the words of Jesus because that is contrary to what Jesus told His disciples. You can argue all you want... Jesus said it. Not me. ;)

No, what Jesus said you are taking out of context to fit your own doctrine. It isn't biblical; therefore, it is you who are not heeding the word of the Lord by teaching false doctrine.

ProjectPeter
Mar 10th 2011, 12:18 AM
No, what Jesus said you are taking out of context to fit your own doctrine. It isn't biblical; therefore, it is you who are not heeding the word of the Lord by teaching false doctrine.

Pray tell how I am taking what He simply said out of context?

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 12:21 AM
Pray tell how I am taking what He simply said out of context?

Because the passage doesn't state, "Poop in your pants in horror at the One who can destroy both body and soul in hell."

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 12:24 AM
By the way, did you miss this part about the term "phobeo"?

- to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience

Or are you simply choosing a definition that better fits your doctrine?

ProjectPeter
Mar 10th 2011, 12:29 AM
By the way, did you miss this part about the term "phobeo"?

- to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience

Or are you simply choosing a definition that better fits your doctrine?Uh... I am telling you what the word means as most scholars would clearly tell you. Tis where the phobia word comes from... and folks that have phobia's don't have reverential awe and respect of whatever it is they fear. So actually... if you are finding that definition as the primary definition of phobeo... you're the one doing the picking and choosing. ;)

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 12:38 AM
Uh... I am telling you what the word means as most scholars would clearly tell you. Tis where the phobia word comes from... and folks that have phobia's don't have reverential awe and respect of whatever it is they fear. So actually... if you are finding that definition as the primary definition of phobeo... you're the one doing the picking and choosing. ;)

Did you clearly not just say a few posts back that the word did not mean reverence or awe? Strike one . . . you're wrong. It does mean that.

Secondly, I don't give a flyin' fig what some "scholar" says if they are repeating some of the nonsense I'm seeing in this thread saying that we should be peeing in our pants at the thought of God. They aren't much of a scholar if that is the relationship they're experiencing with the Lord. I'll just trust the Holy Spirit and the fact that He is bearing witness with my spirit that I'm a child of the King. I have no reason to be losing control of my bodily functions, and if you currently are then I suggest you re-evaluate such absurd doctrine.

Servant89
Mar 10th 2011, 12:38 AM
Project Peter !!!! I LOVE YOU!

Vertical Reality... I LOVE YOU !!!!!!

I am passing kidney stones now (yes, I am heavily medicated).

Who wants a donkey hug?

Let me say it again, I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!

Shalom

keck553
Mar 10th 2011, 12:42 AM
It gives me the willys to hear folks talk about God as if He is their long lost buddy walking 'next' with them. Or even worse, behind them. God is the Almighty Creator of all that exisits in our puny little minds, and He is fully able to 'chop off our heads and spit down our throats' if He desires to do so. I'm sure Ananais and Sapphira (whatever) can testify to that, and probably many, many more who aren't written about. Heck, I totally deserve to lose my head - it is only because of God's great mercy that I draw my next breath.

Apparently Isaiah concurs.

Here is how I understand 'fear' Biblically. If I am wrong I sincerly hope God's Holy Spirit will minister the truth to me.

When Solomon wrote 'fear God and keep His Commandments...." in Ecclesiastes, he used the Hebrew word "yare." Yare can describe an emotional response to something, but often in Scripture it is used in relation to God, and describes a motivation for certain actions.

Hebrew words were originally pictograms, and sometimes the pictures can give us a little insight to meanings of words. "Yare" is spelled "Yod" "Resh" "Aleph." The picture of "Yod" is that of the hand of God. The letter "Resh" pictures and head or chief. The letter Aleph, the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet represents God Almighty. Put them all together and they show the hand of God upon a man's head, bringing him under God's authority. This is why Jesus tells us not to "yare" men.

In NT Greek, the word "fear" is often used to describe people who behave in certain ways. The word is "phobeo." The Septuagint translates "yare" to "phobeo." In Matthew 1:18-20, Joseph is told not to fear. Joseph was afraid to do something. What reason could Joseph have for fear in taking Mariam to be his wife? What motivated his fear? How did God calm his fears? Did Joseph stop fearing God in the subsequent verses?

Mary also understood Who she should fear. Luke 1:46-55 describes some benefits to fearinig God. In Luke 12:4-12 Jesus tells his friends what they should fear and what not to fear. In Acts 10, we can read the relationship between fearing God and God's commands in regards to Cornelius.

Sometimes fear is treated in Scripture as a negative emotion. Although in some of the above passages, fear is described as something different in terms of 'fear God.' Although we might see that to fear God is something that the wicked do, instead we see the opposite in Scripture - God's people are the ones describes as fearing Him. Fearing God is a motivating force for obedience - not a fear of retribution or punsihment, but a fear that understands that God is the King of the Universe and as such we rightly and voluntarily should come under His authority.

I fear God because He is my King. Because He loves me and knows what is best for me. And mostly because He has forgiven me. That's more than reverence to me, much more. We should be on our faces before Him even now.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 12:43 AM
It gives me the willys to hear folks talk about God as if He is their long lost buddy walking 'next' with them. Or even worse, behind them.

Then I suggest you start listening to Jesus.

John 15:14-15
You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.


God is the Almighty Creator of all that exisits in our puny little minds, and He is fully able to 'chop off our heads and spit down our throats' if He desires to do so.

What God is able to do and what God will do are two different things.


I'm sure Ananais and Sapphira (whatever) can testify to that, and probably many, many more who aren't written about. Heck, I totally deserve to lose my head - it is only because of God's great mercy that I draw my next breath.

Are you currently planning on attempting to deceive the Holy Spirit as Ananias and Saphira did? I suggest you reconsider if so. Otherwise, why are you comparing yourself to two people who decided to walk away from the Lord? Are you suggesting that those who are abiding in the Lord should be expecting to receive something like what Ananias and Saphira did?

Come on, folks. Get a grip!

ProjectPeter
Mar 10th 2011, 12:45 AM
Did you clearly not just say a few posts back that the word did not mean reverence or awe? Strike one . . . you're wrong. It does mean that.

Secondly, I don't give a flyin' fig what some "scholar" says if they are repeating some of the nonsense I'm seeing in this thread saying that we should be peeing in our pants at the thought of God. They aren't much of a scholar if that is the relationship they're experiencing with the Lord. I'll just trust the Holy Spirit and the fact that He is bearing witness with my spirit that I'm a child of the King. I have no reason to be losing control of my bodily functions, and if you currently are then I suggest you re-evaluate such absurd doctrine.
No it doesn't. That is just an aspect of being afraid VR. I know the WOF and many of the Charismatic and Pentecostal folk like to paint it that way now days... makes them a bit more comfortable! Problem is... folks have reverential awe and respect for a President or their boss. Has nothing to do with fear. Taking the "be sore afraid" is the key meaning of the word. Being sorely afraid will certainly cause reverential awe and respect. The word alone does not mean simply reverent awe or respect. That can be done without the fear aspect of it and FEAR is the key meaning of the word. Tis why a whole bunch of scholars writing a whole bunch of versions, in times present and in times past, have inserted the word "fear" in that passage. Reason... it means to fear Him. Be afraid. Know that He is a loving God but yet a God of wrath as well and while man might kill you... that's the worse than can happen. Fear God though... your body isn't the only thing He can destroy.

You go on believing though how you believe... many will. ;)

keck553
Mar 10th 2011, 12:47 AM
John 15:14-15
You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

I had no idea you were one of the 12. Sorry.




What God is able to do and what God will do are two different things.

He's done it.



[COLOR="blue"]
Are you currently planning on attempting to deceive the Holy Spirit as Ananias and Saphira did? I suggest you reconsider if so. Otherwise, why are you comparing yourself to two people who decided to walk away from the Lord? Are you suggesting that those who are abiding in the Lord should be expecting to receive something like what Ananias and Saphira did?

Nowhere does it suggest they walked away from the Lord. Where do you get that idea?

Servant89
Mar 10th 2011, 12:49 AM
I am a good hugger, I just don't look like one.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRM1jiyvAzZKBN3S4Ok8OS4KqoTXOdjr BRt_hj11KITzJCUpHC8

Shalom

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 12:49 AM
No it doesn't. That is just an aspect of being afraid VR. I know the WOF and many of the Charismatic and Pentecostal folk like to paint it that way now days... makes them a bit more comfortable! Problem is... folks have reverential awe and respect for a President or their boss. Has nothing to do with fear. Taking the "be sore afraid" is the key meaning of the word. Being sorely afraid will certainly cause reverential awe and respect. The word alone does not mean simply reverent awe or respect. That can be done without the fear aspect of it and FEAR is the key meaning of the word. Tis why a whole bunch of scholars writing a whole bunch of versions, in times present and in times past, have inserted the word "fear" in that passage. Reason... it means to fear Him. Be afraid. Know that He is a loving God but yet a God of wrath as well and while man might kill you... that's the worse than can happen. Fear God though... your body isn't the only thing He can destroy.

You go on believing though how you believe... many will. ;)

I'm amazed at the lack of reasoning in such a statement. You seriously think what I'm saying here is the same as how someone would be with President Obama? Really? You really think that what I feel toward the Lord is the same as what I would feel toward Obama? If so, you have absolutely zero discernment. ZERO . . . NONE.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 12:51 AM
[/COLOR]

I had no idea you were one of the 12. Sorry.

I am indeed a disciple. You're not?


He's done it.

Not to me He hasn't nor to any of His other children who followed after Him.


Nowhere does it suggest they walked away from the Lord. Where do you get that idea?

Umm . . . when Satan enters someone's heart unto death you can rightly say they no longer belong to God.

keck553
Mar 10th 2011, 01:02 AM
I am indeed a disciple. You're not?

I am a disciple yes, not an emissary. The Apostles were a one time event. I can characterize the use 'friend' in some sense, but not as a back-slappin' buddy or something. Jesus still leads my path. Jesus still chastizes me, teaches me, etc. I am humbled to serve Him. I'm willing to bet we're all closer to agreeing than disagreeing. Maybe it's semantics....?"?????



Not to me He hasn't nor to any of His other children who followed after Him.

Me neither. I don't take that for granted however. Really I don't.



Umm . . . when Satan enters someone's heart unto death you can rightly say they no longer belong to God.

Not sure what that means....only God knows the sheep from the goats.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 01:08 AM
I am a disciple yes, not an emissary. The Apostles were a one time event. I can characterize the use 'friend' in some sense, but not as a back-slappin' buddy or something. Jesus still leads my path. Jesus still chastizes me, teaches me, etc. I am humbled to serve Him. I'm willing to bet we're all closer to agreeing than disagreeing. Maybe it's semantics....?"?????

So, you are of the opinion that God is only friends with certain disciples and not others? I don't buy it.


Me neither. I don't take that for granted however. Really I don't.

So does that mean you should walk around on eggshells thinking that the slightest mess up could be your head? Would you say this is a healthy relationship for a child to have toward their father?


Not sure what that means....only God knows the sheep from the goats.

It means what the passage says. The scriptures in Acts 5 say that Satan entered their heart. The scriptures said the same thing about Judas Iscariot in John 13:27.

ProjectPeter
Mar 10th 2011, 03:14 AM
I am a good hugger, I just don't look like one.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRM1jiyvAzZKBN3S4Ok8OS4KqoTXOdjr BRt_hj11KITzJCUpHC8

ShalomI'm betting the donkey is cuter than you! :lol:

ProjectPeter
Mar 10th 2011, 03:17 AM
I'm amazed at the lack of reasoning in such a statement. You seriously think what I'm saying here is the same as how someone would be with President Obama? Really? You really think that what I feel toward the Lord is the same as what I would feel toward Obama? If so, you have absolutely zero discernment. ZERO . . . NONE.Uh... I think you're totally ignoring the point.

As to lack of reasoning in my statement... notice VR is that all you do is say stuff like that. You say all sorts of stuff. Problem is.. you're not addressing the passage at all. Imagine that eh?

Servant89
Mar 10th 2011, 03:44 AM
I'm betting the donkey is cuter than you! :lol:

That explains it! That is why people won't hug me.

Shalom

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 03:50 AM
Uh... I think you're totally ignoring the point.

As to lack of reasoning in my statement... notice VR is that all you do is say stuff like that. You say all sorts of stuff. Problem is.. you're not addressing the passage at all. Imagine that eh?

Imagine what? That you have yet again denied someone has addressed your assertions? I've already spoken about the one passage of scripture you listed. Secondly, I've also addressed how this "pee your pants" doctrine is totally ridiculous when compared to the whole of God's word. There isn't a disciple in the word, or even Jesus Himself, who messed themselves thinking about God the Father. Your definition of the term has a very difficult time reconciling itself to the word.

The truth is that if a person is being obedient to God and listening to His voice they should have no fear of harm. God wants nothing but blessings for those who are obedient to Him, and a revered obedience (you know, another definition of that term you failed to cite) is more along the lines of scriptural truth. Now, if you are living in disobedience you better believe there is something to be afraid of. However, I'm going to do whatever it takes not to allow that to be a characteristic of my walk, and the reason for this is not because I'm terrified of God. It's because I love Him and I realize the sacrifice He has gone through on my behalf. Attempting to strike fear into people doesn't make disciples. It only makes temporary converts. Those who fall in love with the Lord are the ones who go on to discipleship.

ProjectPeter
Mar 10th 2011, 04:26 AM
Imagine what? That you have yet again denied someone has addressed your assertions? I've already spoken about the one passage of scripture you listed. Secondly, I've also addressed how this "pee your pants" doctrine is totally ridiculous when compared to the whole of God's word. There isn't a disciple in the word, or even Jesus Himself, who messed themselves thinking about God the Father. Your definition of the term has a very difficult time reconciling itself to the word.

The truth is that if a person is being obedient to God and listening to His voice they should have no fear of harm. God wants nothing but blessings for those who are obedient to Him, and a revered obedience (you know, another definition of that term you failed to cite) is more along the lines of scriptural truth. Now, if you are living in disobedience you better believe there is something to be afraid of. However, I'm going to do whatever it takes not to allow that to be a characteristic of my walk, and the reason for this is not because I'm terrified of God. It's because I love Him and I realize the sacrifice He has gone through on my behalf. Attempting to strike fear into people doesn't make disciples. It only makes temporary converts. Those who fall in love with the Lord are the ones who go on to discipleship.No... you said it doesn't say that. Anyone can say that regardless of the plain written text in front of your face.

You say it simply means reverential awe and respect... you are wrong. 80 percent of the Greek Scholars out there could tell you that you are wrong because the word describes much more than that because it MUST have the aspect of fear. But then you'd argue with them too because hey... that's simply how it works with you. You're WOF stuff really gets you hung up on some really bad teaching. You can go through life without fearing God. I suspect, very soon, that is fixing to change for all of us and we'll fear. Knee knocking, pee your pants kind of fear too. If not and God goes on longer than I figure He will... you will experience that fear when you one day stand before pure and real holiness. I assure you of that. Your WOF stuff is going to fail you like a really badly packed parachute.

Let me add this too. If you have no fear of God... then you don't much know the God of Scripture.

ProDeo
Mar 10th 2011, 09:47 AM
I've pointed out very clear scriptures that state God didn't do . . . the destroyer did. And those scriptures make a clear destinction that God isn't the destroyer being spoken of.

Exod 12:29 - And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt,

Moving in late, catching up.....

ProDeo
Mar 10th 2011, 10:07 AM
Exodus 12:23
For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you.

So the Lord is going to pass over the door and not allow himself, who is now being referred to all of a sudden by different terminology, to enter the house and destroy.

How totally ridiculous does that sound? Let me re-translate:

the LORD will pass over the door and not allow the LORD to come into your houses to strike you

Yep. Makes perfect sense.

Here is another way to look at it:

Passover (animal blood on the doorpost that saves from first death) is strong symbolism for the real blood sacrifice on Calvary that saves from second death, notable ON Passover. In both cases (first and second death) it's God who executes judgement, not a creature that is subject to judgement himself.

So God sometimes uses an holy angel to destroy, why should that be a problem?

ProDeo
Mar 10th 2011, 10:28 AM
I call it asking you questions based upon what I have to read into your comments since you aren't really coming out and saying much about what you believe. What I can seem to gather from your posts is that Satan is not up to much. In fact, I should be more worried about God getting me from what I'm reading in this thread.

You hit the nail on the head :)

ProDeo
Mar 10th 2011, 10:57 AM
And that is total bunk that is completely made up outside of the bible. The bible teaches about people of God who were deeply in love with their Father. They weren't "wetting their pants" in horror of Him. How absurd. Absolutely shameful.

Then how do you interpret Hebr 10:30-31 ?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

As a saved Christian (by His love) it's good to realize His other side in case we might start to wander. We are under the chastening of the Lord anyway, there is a whole chapter in the Bible about that, Hebr 12. John 15 (the true vine) comes to mind also.

I think that's the kind of fear PP is talking about. God's other side. And I have deep respect for that other side. I call it holy fear.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 04:26 PM
You say it simply means reverential awe and respect... you are wrong.

I didn't say anything about the word only meaning reverential, awe or respect. Why don't you try actually reading my posts. I simply pointed out to you that the word does not mean some ridiculous "knee-knocking," "pant-wetting" silliness you were talking about. You can't logically look at any disciple in the word and say these are the thoughts they had of their Father. None of them were wetting themselves at the thought of God. They were overjoyed at the thought of God. Just a flatout illogical doctrine you're putting forth here. It stinks of defiled and legalistic religion trying to convince people that God is just waiting for the opportunity to put the smackdown on them. Just cold-hearted doctrine that doesn't even remotely reflect the love God has for His people. He's not abusive at all. I would say that if you have this sort of fear for God, it's a good sign you aren't where you're supposed to be.


80 percent of the Greek Scholars out there could tell you that you are wrong because the word describes much more than that because it MUST have the aspect of fear.

Apparently you aren't reading well. I didn't say the word did not mean fear. I said the word does not mean some concept of "knee-knocking," "pant-wetting," fear that you are trying to claim. Such fear that you describe is a product of abuse and neglect. It is not the product of love. Even God's discipline toward His people comes with His love. Even when I've been corrected by my Father I've still had an overwhelming sense of His love for me. I wasn't terrified of Him just like I'm not terrified of Him now. If you are terrified of Him then I suggest you repent and get a heart-level revelation on what the love of God means.


But then you'd argue with them too because hey...

I would certainly argue with any person trying to put forth some ridiculous doctrine that we should be wetting in our pants from terror at the thought of our Father. It's a flatout mind-numbing notion how anyone could arrive at such goofy doctrine. I can't stress enough how absurd this teaching is that you're putting forth.


that's simply how it works with you.

You don't know me, PP. You don't know half as much as you apparently think you do. I think some humility is in order, and this fire and brimstone nonsense you preach just does more damage to the body of Christ than anything.


You're WOF stuff really gets you hung up on some really bad teaching.

I would say your legalistic, sarcastic and cynical viewpoint gets you hung up on some really bad teaching. There are many things you've tried to preach on this forum that I believe is as wrong as wrong can be. PP doesn't have it all figured out either. Shocking huh?


You can go through life without fearing God.

Again, PP thinks he knows what he's talking about when he hasn't got a clue. I haven't said anything about not fearing God. I've said this fear is not some silly "knee-knocking," "pant-wetting" fear that you are going on and on about. It's just a silly teaching you're putting forth here. It doesn't even remotely reflect the sort of fear that the apostles had for their Father. They followed Jesus' example. You're following some silly fire and brimstone example not depicted in the word of God.


I suspect, very soon, that is fixing to change for all of us and we'll fear. Knee knocking, pee your pants kind of fear too.

And I suspect those who have this "knee-knocking" "pant-wetting" kind of fear were never really intimate with the Father in the first place. Therefore, anyone who is living in this kind of fear should probably repent of their sinfulness and be set free.


If not and God goes on longer than I figure He will... you will experience that fear when you one day stand before pure and real holiness. I assure you of that. Your WOF stuff is going to fail you like a really badly packed parachute.

PP . . .

The Lord has not given a spirit of fear that you're talking about. So you can save your false doctrine and your threats of judgment. I'm not judged by sinful man. I'm judged by a righteous and loving Father. So, spend your time trying to condemn others. It isn't going to work on me.


Let me add this too. If you have no fear of God... then you don't much know the God of Scripture.

And I don't suspect your reading comprehension to be very sound if you've gathered that I don't think we should fear God. I don't agree with YOUR definition of what this fear entails.

Servant89
Mar 10th 2011, 04:29 PM
Are you ready? Seat belt on? Hang tight... this is going to be a rough ride. Open your eyes and see the truth. (I had to read the entire paper Bible to extract these verses, it is worth reading).

Lev 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

JER 19:9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

And it did happen...
LAM 4:10 The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people.

LAM 3:37 Who is he that says it, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commands it not?
38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceeds not evil and good?
39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

AMO 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

ISA 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

AMO 9:4 And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.

2CH 15:6 And nation was destroyed of nation, and city of city: for God did vex them with all adversity.

1SA 2:6 The LORD kills, and makes alive: he brings down to the grave, and brings up.
7 The LORD makes poor, and makes rich: he brings low, and lifts up.

JOB 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
JOB 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speaks as one of the foolish women speaks. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

JOB 13:26 For thou writes bitter things against me, and makes me to possess the iniquities of my youth.

Job said:
Job 30:11 Because he hath loosed my cord, and afflicted me, they have also let loose the bridle before me.

Elihu answered…
Job 37:23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.

And God cut him up right there and said …
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel with words without knowledge?

JOB 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and very one an earring of gold.

1SA 1:5 But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb.

1SA 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

PSA 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

REV 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

2CH 13:20 Neither did Jeroboam recover strength again in the days of Abijah: and the LORD struck him, and he died.

JDG 2:15 Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed.

DEU 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

MAT 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

ISA 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

1CH 5:22 For there fell down many slain, because the war was of God. And they dwelt in their steads until the captivity.

EXO 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why does thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou have brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swore by thine own self, and said unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

REV 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

DAN 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

DAN 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

DAN 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swore by him that lives for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

PRO 26:10 The great God that formed all things both rewards the fool, and rewards transgressors.

PSA 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

PSA 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

PSA 119:75 I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness have afflicted me.

EXO 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who makes the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

2CH 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

PSA 118:18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.

JOH 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou could have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

2SA 24:14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.
15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge (Palm Sunday declared judgment on Israel and received it in 70 AD)

Ananias and Sapphira, Act 5:11 and great fear came upon all the church…

Commandment # 2 visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children up to the 4th generation.

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Shalom

RabbiKnife
Mar 10th 2011, 04:30 PM
PP, don't try any of that charismatic witchcraft negative-confession stuff, either...You'll get yourself rebuked in the name of Jesus.

(That's the Reboundus charm for you HP fans....I'm rubber, you're glue, bounce of me and stick to you."

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 04:32 PM
Exod 12:29 - And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt,

Moving in late, catching up.....

How did this come to pass?

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 04:33 PM
So God sometimes uses an holy angel to destroy, why should that be a problem?

Where do you gather that God uses a "holy" angel to destroy? God using something to destroy isn't a problem. Who said it was?

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 04:34 PM
You hit the nail on the head :)

And if that is what you believe then you cannot be intimate with the Father. Those who are intimate with the Father are not terrified or in horror of Him.

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 04:36 PM
Then how do you interpret Hebr 10:30-31 ?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

As a saved Christian (by His love) it's good to realize His other side in case we might start to wander. We are under the chastening of the Lord anyway, there is a whole chapter in the Bible about that, Hebr 12. John 15 (the true vine) comes to mind also.

I think that's the kind of fear PP is talking about. God's other side. And I have deep respect for that other side. I call it holy fear.

No, I think PP is talking about we should be so scared of our Father in heaven that it causes us to lose control of our bodily functions. You know, kind of like an abused and tortured child does when his parents have put him through a living hell his entire life.

If this is the depiction people get of God the Father when they read the word of God then I think they have about as much wisdom and discernment as those outside the church.

Servant89
Mar 10th 2011, 04:39 PM
I am just driving by, never mind me .... there is a donkey crossing the street.

Is 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Shalom

VerticalReality
Mar 10th 2011, 04:45 PM
And for those going on and on about "Word of Faith" nonsense. Do some research. Most "Word of Faith" believers don't believe God does any judging whatsoever. In fact, it's mostly "Word of Faith" believers who think that all God's judgment was placed on Jesus; therefore, there is no judgment for anyone else today.

Sundown
Mar 10th 2011, 07:29 PM
Having read many of the posts in reply to your question: Does God Judge People Today the answer is three-fold:

First, every person above the age of accountability has already been judged by God as a sinner and condemned as found in Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God), because of the inherited and imputed sin of Adam in the original fall from Grace in the Garden of Eden. Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: For as Apostle Paul says of every person in Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

This judgment or condemnation is upon all men, regardless of race, greed or color, etc. The result is a separation of the soul from God that can only reconciled through belief and faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross for the remission of sin through the shedding of His blood for there is only one name given under heaven whereby man must by saved. Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Not by good works, keeping a high moral standing or charity to others. Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Second, a person having been granted God's salvation (saved) passes from death to life and that life is everlasting. Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Once salvation is given to our soul it is sealed and cannot sin. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

However, the body or flesh can and does sin against God when drawn away by 1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. This is why the flesh will not be nor can it be saved but must be changed into the likeness of our Lord at His coming and also Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

In summary, the soul of a saved person, having been reconciled to God through Christ does not sin against God after He imparts His righteousness and is justified in His sight forever and no longer subject to judgment as to its eternal destination (heaven or hell). Receiving God's salvation for our soul is where man comes with nothing and gains all.

Lastly, God judges sin ever moment, especially those that are His children through Christ. Whether we choose to believe it is God or Christ or the Holy Spirit that does the judging and/or the execution of it from whatever source, is irrelevant or even ourselves, as Paul tells us to do to avoid the judgment of God and if we don’t, His chastisement is the execution for judgment passed.

Simply put, there are recorded in the Word of God 5 major judgments:
1. To the believer as to sin (this is for the original sin of Adam that we are redeemed from and reconciled to God after receiving His salvation for our soul through Christ).
2. To the believer as to works (not before salvation but afterwards, which will occur at the Judgment Seat of Christ for rewards gained or those lost).
3. As to the Jew or Israel during the Tribulation Period for the rejection of God and Christ that will result in their conversation and reception of Christ by the remnant.
4. The Judgment of Nations by Christ upon His return to the earth to establish His Millennial Kingdom of those alive after the Great Tribulation Period.
5. The Great White Throne Judgment of the wicked dead for their works at the close of the Millennial Period. The Scriptures remain silent as to any further judgment for those that lived in or through the Kingdom Age apparently because God didn’t feel it necessary for us to know at the present time nor is it necessary for man’s salvation today.

So does God judge people today? Yes He does. If the truth be known, just ask yourself why the His Holy Spirit convicts our heart when the flesh sins against God. No man or woman has to tell a saved person for the Holy Spirit will make known such offence that is about to occur and certainly confirm it afterwards. 1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

God, being a merciful and all forgiving God, has plainly made clear the way to avoid such judgment as recorded for our edification and admonition in 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This becomes truth revealed when we consider what the Apostle says in 2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day and 1Co 15:31 “I die daily” (as to sin).

Solomon, in all his wisdom says in Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ec 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Love God and Praise the Lord…………….

Servant89
Mar 10th 2011, 07:47 PM
Having read many of the posts in reply to your question: Does God Judge People Today the answer is three-fold:

First, every person above the age of accountability has already been judged by God as a sinner and condemned as found in Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God), because of the inherited and imputed sin of Adam in the original fall from Grace in the Garden of Eden. Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: For as Apostle Paul says of every person in Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

This judgment or condemnation is upon all men, regardless of race, greed or color, etc. The result is a separation of the soul from God that can only reconciled through belief and faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross for the remission of sin through the shedding of His blood for there is only one name given under heaven whereby man must by saved. Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Not by good works, keeping a high moral standing or charity to others. Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Second, a person having been granted God's salvation (saved) passes from death to life and that life is everlasting. Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Once salvation is given to our soul it is sealed and cannot sin. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

However, the body or flesh can and does sin against God when drawn away by 1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. This is why the flesh will not be nor can it be saved but must be changed into the likeness of our Lord at His coming and also Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

In summary, the soul of a saved person, having been reconciled to God through Christ does not sin against God after He imparts His righteousness and is justified in His sight forever and no longer subject to judgment as to its eternal destination (heaven or hell). Receiving God's salvation for our soul is where man comes with nothing and gains all.

Lastly, God judges sin ever moment, especially those that are His children through Christ. Whether we choose to believe it is God or Christ or the Holy Spirit that does the judging and/or the execution of it from whatever source, is irrelevant or even ourselves, as Paul tells us to do to avoid the judgment of God and if we don’t, His chastisement is the execution for judgment passed.

Simply put, there are recorded in the Word of God 5 major judgments:
1. To the believer as to sin (this is for the original sin of Adam that we are redeemed from and reconciled to God after receiving His salvation for our soul through Christ).
2. To the believer as to works (not before salvation but afterwards, which will occur at the Judgment Seat of Christ for rewards gained or those lost).
3. As to the Jew or Israel during the Tribulation Period for the rejection of God and Christ that will result in their conversation and reception of Christ by the remnant.
4. The Judgment of Nations by Christ upon His return to the earth to establish His Millennial Kingdom of those alive after the Great Tribulation Period.
5. The Great White Throne Judgment of the wicked dead for their works at the close of the Millennial Period. The Scriptures remain silent as to any further judgment for those that lived in or through the Kingdom Age apparently because God didn’t feel it necessary for us to know at the present time nor is it necessary for man’s salvation today.

So does God judge people today? Yes He does. If the truth be known, just ask yourself why the His Holy Spirit convicts our heart when the flesh sins against God. No man or woman has to tell a saved person for the Holy Spirit will make known such offence that is about to occur and certainly confirm it afterwards. 1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

God, being a merciful and all forgiving God, has plainly made clear the way to avoid such judgment as recorded for our edification and admonition in 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This becomes truth revealed when we consider what the Apostle says in 2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day and 1Co 15:31 “I die daily” (as to sin).

Solomon, in all his wisdom says in Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ec 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Love God and Praise the Lord…………….




Welcome to our team.

Shalom

RollTide21
Mar 10th 2011, 08:53 PM
Oh, please! I quoted your words, brother. You are the one who stated we should be wetting our pants in fear of God, and I will certainly not be ashamed in stating that something such as that shouldn't even be thought of in regard to our Father. He has been too good to us to have such a hateful label slapped by His name. He loves us more than we can imagine, and I would be dishonest if I said that such a charge against my Father doesn't get me a tad bit hot under the collar.

I really don't want to be disrespectful here, but such nonsense should not even been considered when thinking of our loving Father.Verses 29-31 should be viewed in conjunction with verse 28:

29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.
30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

RollTide21
Mar 10th 2011, 09:04 PM
Uh... I think you're totally ignoring the point.

As to lack of reasoning in my statement... notice VR is that all you do is say stuff like that. You say all sorts of stuff. Problem is.. you're not addressing the passage at all. Imagine that eh?PP, is it not possible that Jesus's intent in that passage was not to suggest we should be in "knee-knocking, wet-your-pants fear" of God? VR mentioned discernment. I understand your devotion to the word as it displays on the page, but...expand your vision, man. Think of Jesus's relationship to His disciples. What was He telling them in this passage, as a whole. His point isn't to remind them that God can kill them if they screw up. His point is to not be afraid of those that would oppose them. The message is clear. That one verse has to be considered not only with the chapter, but Jesus's relationship to His disciples, as well as God's Nature toward us as testified by the Spirit.

ProDeo
Mar 10th 2011, 10:17 PM
No, I think PP is talking about we should be so scared of our Father in heaven that it causes us to lose control of our bodily functions. You know, kind of like an abused and tortured child does when his parents have put him through a living hell his entire life.

I think PP merely was arguing against a sugar daddy image of God using a strong example. But he better can speak for himself.

Nevertheless you did not address the question about Hebr 10:30-31.

Take care.

keck553
Mar 10th 2011, 11:42 PM
So, you are of the opinion that God is only friends with certain disciples and not others? I don't buy it.

Jesus gave authority to His Apostles to finish what He began (See Act's 1). That is the reason their words and teaching are Canonized and not our words/teachings. And yes, Jesus hung out with them for several years; don't you make friends with people you hang out with? He was human too, you know. As far as "friend" goes, that aspect of His advocacy is layed out clearly in Hebrews. Yet, He is God. Think about it this way. Jesus says (paraphrased) that a person with an unforgiving spirit will wind up in Hell. Forgiving those who continually harm us, really forgiving them from the inside, not just making a show of it is one of the most difficult walks a Christian can make, yet Jesus commands it. Forgivinig in this way is not something that we can do to make us appear Christlike, it is something that proves we are His. So if I feel I have an issue forgiving someone from my heart - yes I fear the consequences of not obeying my Master and being set to His left with the other goats. I think that fear humbles us and motivates us to prayer so He can help us with out unbelief. As I said in a previous post, I fear Him because He forgives me (I think that is written somewhere in Psalms too).




So does that mean you should walk around on eggshells thinking that the slightest mess up could be your head? Would you say this is a healthy relationship for a child to have toward their father?


No, that woulld be legalism and has nothing at all to do with fearing God.

keck553
Mar 10th 2011, 11:55 PM
PP, is it not possible that Jesus's intent in that passage was not to suggest we should be in "knee-knocking, wet-your-pants fear" of God? VR mentioned discernment. I understand your devotion to the word as it displays on the page, but...expand your vision, man. Think of Jesus's relationship to His disciples. What was He telling them in this passage, as a whole. His point isn't to remind them that God can kill them if they screw up. His point is to not be afraid of those that would oppose them. The message is clear. That one verse has to be considered not only with the chapter, but Jesus's relationship to His disciples, as well as God's Nature toward us as testified by the Spirit.

Still, we need to consider such things as the several million Hebrews at Mt. Sinai who might disagree with the idea that one need not fear God. They throught they were going to die, so knowing human nature, I have to assume there was some wetting of cloaks going on. The writer of Hebrews even magnifies this experience in light of Messiah.

RollTide21
Mar 11th 2011, 05:06 PM
Still, we need to consider such things as the several million Hebrews at Mt. Sinai who might disagree with the idea that one need not fear God. They throught they were going to die, so knowing human nature, I have to assume there was some wetting of cloaks going on. The writer of Hebrews even magnifies this experience in light of Messiah.Why would we need to consider those things? I understand that the God of the Israelites under Moses is the same God that we serve, but, are there not factors about God's Purpose at that time that would be considered? I mean, God was establishing His Law and His Nation at that time. The Israelites also witnessed God exterminating entire civilizations in this time.

I suppose I am making the argument that God's purpose at that time was to establish His Law and Authority through Power and Awe, which previously unestablished. He doesn't need to establish that Power to Believers through Christ and the Spirit. I don't know. This is just opinion, but it is based on how most Christians have experienced God.