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View Full Version : Being in "limbo" or "purgatory" is it real?



A820djd
Mar 11th 2011, 02:21 AM
Deletion question has been answered.

amazzin
Mar 11th 2011, 02:25 AM
No it is not. It's a total fabrication by the Roman Catholic church. When in doubt ask your pastor

A820djd
Mar 11th 2011, 02:27 AM
I don't have a pastor other than here. It's more comfortable for me sometimes... :)

amazzin
Mar 11th 2011, 02:30 AM
Why are you not in a healthy church gowing along side other believers?

cowboy_tech
Mar 11th 2011, 04:49 AM
This would be a good chance, for those in the know, to post some good verses.

(I would start, but my brain is shutting down for tonight)

nzyr
Mar 11th 2011, 04:57 AM
Purgatory is not mentioned in the bible.

Vhayes
Mar 11th 2011, 05:06 AM
Hebrews 9
27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

chad
Mar 11th 2011, 07:13 AM
Beilieve it or not. You can't ask questions in some churches. You get snarled at or felt like your inconvienienving the pastor or a leader.



No it is not. It's a total fabrication by the Roman Catholic church. When in doubt ask your pastor

Phish
Mar 11th 2011, 08:23 AM
Beilieve it or not. You can't ask questions in some churches. You get snarled at or felt like your inconvienienving the pastor or a leader.



I would find a new church

notuptome
Mar 11th 2011, 01:49 PM
Paul said for believers to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Jesus taught that the rich man was in torments while Lazurus was in Abrahams bosom. Luke 16. Not in limbo and Abraham said there is no going from there to here. Once you're in hell you do not get out. From hell you are cast into the lake of fire at the GWT judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

cowboy_tech
Mar 11th 2011, 02:22 PM
From "discussions" with devout catholics, they say only believers go to purgatory to purge any remaining sin they might have after death. They don't understand how it is a direct assault on the work Christ did on the cross.

Aaron01
Mar 11th 2011, 02:43 PM
No it is not. It's a total fabrication by the Roman Catholic church. When in doubt ask your pastor

Actually I have studied comparative religions and there is a similar view in Judaism.


According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/512017/jewish/Is-there-any-sort-of-Purgatory-or-Satan-in-Jewish-teachings.htm

Aaron01
Mar 11th 2011, 02:48 PM
Purgatory is not mentioned in the bible.

I read once were some Catholic give a number of verses that they use to support this belief, I forget most of them now some are from the deuterocanonical books. The ones I vaguely remember are Isaiah6:4-7, Luke12:47-48, 1Corinthians3:15.

Vhayes
Mar 11th 2011, 03:01 PM
I was going to say if the Roman Catholic Church uses any scripture I would guess it to be I Corinthians 3:15. But you would have to extrapolate a whole lot to get purgatory from that verse.

notuptome
Mar 11th 2011, 06:05 PM
I was going to say if the Roman Catholic Church uses any scripture I would guess it to be I Corinthians 3:15. But you would have to extrapolate a whole lot to get purgatory from that verse.
It is taught in the second book of Macabees. Of course Macabees is an apocryphal book and not recognised as scripture by much of the protestant church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Vhayes
Mar 11th 2011, 06:08 PM
It is taught in the second book of Macabees. Of course Macabees is an apocryphal book and not recognised as scripture by much of the protestant church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ok. Thanks, Roger. I appreciate the information. i may go look it up to see exactly what it says - to see if it ties in in any way to I Corinthians.

V

-SEEKING-
Mar 11th 2011, 06:10 PM
From "discussions" with devout catholics, they say only believers go to purgatory to purge any remaining sin they might have after death. They don't understand how it is a direct assault on the work Christ did on the cross.

Well I'd think we have to really foolish to believe that if the blood of Jesus couldn't make us whole, we actually think a minister's prayer or mass, or whatever is done on behalf of the deceased would actually be more effective than Jesus Himself.

Aaron01
Mar 11th 2011, 08:23 PM
Ok. Thanks, Roger. I appreciate the information. i may go look it up to see exactly what it says - to see if it ties in in any way to I Corinthians.

I think the reference is in 2Maccabees chapter 12, the other ones I forgot were Habakkuk1:13 and Revelation21:27(I think).


Well I'd think we have to really foolish to believe that if the blood of Jesus couldn't make us whole, we actually think a minister's prayer or mass, or whatever is done on behalf of the deceased would actually be more effective than Jesus Himself.

I think this is a misunderstanding of what it is, as far as I know the belief in this type of place is to rid people of their attachment to sin. I don't know what you mean by more effective, but the only reason people can make it into heaven in the first place is because of Christ's crucifixion.

notuptome
Mar 11th 2011, 09:18 PM
I think the reference is in 2Maccabees chapter 12, the other ones I forgot were Habakkuk1:13 and Revelation21:27(I think).



I think this is a misunderstanding of what it is, as far as I know the belief in this type of place is to rid people of their attachment to sin. I don't know what you mean by more effective, but the only reason people can make it into heaven in the first place is because of Christ's crucifixion.
It is wholly unbiblical since Christ did all and I mean all that was required to purchase our redemption. There is nothing that must be done before the sacrifice of Christ can get us into heaven. God has said that our sin is removed from us as far as the east is from the west. Ps 103:12

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Servant89
Mar 11th 2011, 09:42 PM
1. The thief on the cross admitted that he deserved death and yet Jesus told him "Today, you will be with me in paradise."

2. Purgatory (was made an official catholic doctrine in the council of Trenton (1545-1555). But the Bible says!

3. Sins are cleansed by the blood:

LEV 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.

HEB 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

See also Rom 5:9, Eph 1:7; Eph 2:13; Col 1:20; Heb 9:14; Heb 9:26; Heb 10:19; heb 13:12; 1Pe 1:18-19; 1John 1:7; Rev 1:5; Rev 5:9

4. The Bible condemns the practice of offering prayers or money for the dead (to get them to heaven): 2Sam 12:21-23; Deu 26:14; Ecc 9:5-6; Psalm 106:28-29; Psalm 49:7-9 and Mat 8:22. The mass is often offered to God as a sacrifice to get the dead out of purgatory into heaven. That makes it an offering for the dead. Money must be paid for that mass.

PSA 49:6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
8 (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:)
9 That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.

5. Jesus said concerning the dead…

MAT 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

6. Where is purgatory in the following scriptures? Philipians 1:23; 2Cor 5:8; Luke 23:42-43; Heb 9:27; Luke 16:19-31

7. God does not remember our sins (the sins of the elect, his people) when we die: Eze 33:14-16

It is an insult to the blood of Jesus to say that we need to be cleansed with fire because his blood failed to do a perfect cleaning job.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Shalom

Aaron01
Mar 11th 2011, 10:36 PM
It is wholly unbiblical since Christ did all and I mean all that was required to purchase our redemption. There is nothing that must be done before the sacrifice of Christ can get us into heaven. God has said that our sin is removed from us as far as the east is from the west. Ps 103:12

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I'm not arguing in favour of it, I was giving some of the verses that I have seen used to support it, you would really need to take each of these verses and more and argue with someone who uses them to defend their belief in a place called purgatory, or limbo or whatever you want to refer to it as. As I pointed out earlier though, there is a similar belief in Judiasm, so the belief in such a place doesn't originate with the Catholic Church.

keck553
Mar 11th 2011, 10:44 PM
I've always viewed purgatory as a means of greedy religious leadership leeching money off poor folks who paid dearly to purchase their relatives who died in sin out of torment.

It's almost an exact copy of how the Sadduccees used religion to bilk poor folks seeking repentance of their funds during the feasts.

Which is almost an exact copy of what I see currently going on with televangelists.

Nothing changes under the sun.

Phish
Mar 11th 2011, 10:50 PM
I've always viewed purgatory as a means of greedy religious leadership leeching money off poor folks who paid dearly to purchase their relatives who died in sin out of torment.

It's almost an exact copy of how the Sadduccees used religion to bilk poor folks seeking repentance of their funds during the feasts.

Which is almost an exact copy of what I see currently going on with televangelists.

Nothing changes under the sun.

And if you act now we will throw in an Indulgence to do whatever you want, limited time offer

Vhayes
Mar 11th 2011, 10:54 PM
And if you act now we will throw in an Indulgence to do whatever you want, limited time offer

But wait - there's more. A genuine prayer cloth that the highly anointed bilker..er...man of God has prayed over. Yours for just shipping and handling. Place it over the screen of your tv set to renew the power when the bilker..er...man if God is on the screen.

chad
Mar 11th 2011, 10:58 PM
Wiki Article on Purgatory... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory

keck553
Mar 11th 2011, 11:37 PM
But wait - there's more. A genuine prayer cloth that the highly anointed bilker..er...man of God has prayed over. Yours for just shipping and handling. Place it over the screen of your tv set to renew the power when the bilker..er...man if God is on the screen.

Merely double your gift offering and we will send you a .00000005 ml vile of holy water right from the Yarden.

** disclaimer: may have been annointed by Syrian boots crossing near the Galil

cowboy_tech
Mar 11th 2011, 11:39 PM
But wait - there's more. A genuine prayer cloth that the highly anointed bilker..er...man of God has prayed over. Yours for just shipping and handling. Place it over the screen of your tv set to renew the power when the bilker..er...man if God is on the screen.

And for a limited time, we'll throw in a toenail from St Peter himself. Only 134 left, so act now!

Servant89
Mar 12th 2011, 12:19 AM
When Jesus spoke parables, he would say: "a certain man..."

This one is not a parable because he is speaking about a particular person, with a particular name... This shows there is no purgatory.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Shalom

Phish
Mar 12th 2011, 03:19 AM
And for a limited time, we'll throw in a toenail from St Peter himself. Only 134 left, so act now!

Don't forget the vile of pearly gate dust.

Vhayes
Mar 12th 2011, 04:49 AM
Merely double your gift offering and we will send you a .00000005 ml vile of holy water right from the Yarden.

** disclaimer: may have been annointed by Syrian boots crossing near the Galil
And if not, we can assure you it came from Yasgar's Farm

Aaron01
Mar 12th 2011, 01:23 PM
This one is not a parable because he is speaking about a particular person, with a particular name... This shows there is no purgatory.

Care to elaborate I don't quite follow you?

Servant89
Mar 12th 2011, 01:43 PM
Care to elaborate I don't quite follow you?


Tit 1:2 ... God, that cannot lie,

So, when Jesus said a certain beggar named Lazarus, there was indeed a beggar named Lazarus, that is what makes is real.

This one is not a parable because he is speaking about a particular person, with a real name... This shows there is no purgatory because when both died, one went to heaven and one went to hell, we do not see anyone going to purgatory.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Peace

Aaron01
Mar 12th 2011, 01:48 PM
This one is not a parable because he is speaking about a particular person, with a real name... This shows there is no purgatory because when both died, one went to heaven and one went to hell, we do not see anyone going to purgatory.

Abrahams bosom is commonly understood to be Sheol(the place the Old Testament saints were before Christ released them), and not heaven.

Servant89
Mar 12th 2011, 01:53 PM
Abrahams bosom is commonly understood to be Sheol(the place the Old Testament saints were before Christ released them), and not heaven.

I stand corrected !!!! I love it when people help me out. Thanks!

Shalom

Aaron01
Mar 12th 2011, 01:57 PM
No problem :thumbsup:

The Mighty Sword
Mar 12th 2011, 05:18 PM
From "discussions" with devout catholics, they say only believers go to purgatory to purge any remaining sin they might have after death. They don't understand how it is a direct assault on the work Christ did on the cross.

That's says alot.

Oh btw I found purgatory:
http://www.quarrygirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/purgatory-pizza-ext-570x308.jpg

See it does exist.

keck553
Mar 12th 2011, 05:55 PM
That's says alot.

Oh btw I found purgatory:
http://www.quarrygirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/purgatory-pizza-ext-570x308.jpg

See it does exist.

Oh, can I use my indulgence to enter that purgatory?

cowboy_tech
Mar 12th 2011, 06:11 PM
Oh, can I use my indulgence to enter that purgatory?
:lol::rofl::rofl: