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Hunter121
Mar 16th 2011, 03:53 AM
This question has been on my mine quite a while now, and this is what I think, god created adam and eve, plus dinosaurs and all the animals, then the flood, so here is where it gets confusing, did the dinos die out before or after the flood, I think they died before the flood, because before sin all the animals ate leaves and plants, so when they ate the apple dinosaurs would of started eating other animals therefore dominating the humans so god killed them off, this is just a guess, I have no idea what do all of you think?

Liquid Tension
Mar 16th 2011, 04:07 AM
My view given the scenario you've posted:

1) The bible doesn't say what the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil was, so you, I, others can't say it was an apple.

2) Animals (as far as I know) don't have a conscience, so even if a dinosaur did eat the fruit of this tree, it probably wouldn't have affected them in any way. (although I suppose this could be up for debate).

3) As far as when they died, I don't know. Others will give you various answers.

BrckBrln
Mar 16th 2011, 04:42 AM
Dinosaurs lived between about 230 and 65 million years ago.

cowboy_tech
Mar 16th 2011, 05:01 AM
Dinosaurs lived between about 230 and 65 million years ago.

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/peru-tomb-rock-art-man-riding-triceratops.jpg

Pottery from Peru

Fenris
Mar 16th 2011, 01:35 PM
Maybe dinosaurs were "the serpent". Then God cut off their hands and feet and made them into snakes.

GitRDunn
Mar 16th 2011, 02:08 PM
Maybe dinosaurs were "the serpent". Then God cut off their hands and feet and made them into snakes.
He would've had to do more than that because although the dinosaurs were reptiles, just as snakes are, none of them resembled a snake to the point where you could cut off its hands and feet and voila, you have a snake.

Fenris
Mar 16th 2011, 02:20 PM
Close enough. Is anything beyond God?

teddyv
Mar 16th 2011, 03:03 PM
Dinosaurs lived between about 230 and 65 million years ago.^^ This.
...............

cowboy_tech
Mar 16th 2011, 03:53 PM
Job 40:15-19 HCSB

Look at Behemoth,

which I made along with you.

He eats grass like an ox.

Look at the strength of his loins

and the power in the muscles of his belly.

He stiffens his tail like a cedar tree;

the tendons of his thighs are woven firmly together.

His bones are bronze tubes;

his limbs are like iron rods.

He is the foremost of God's works;

[only] his Maker can draw the sword against him.

RollTide21
Mar 16th 2011, 05:08 PM
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/peru-tomb-rock-art-man-riding-triceratops.jpg

Pottery from PeruHmm. That's interesting.

keck553
Mar 16th 2011, 05:28 PM
Maybe dinosaurs were "the serpent". Then God cut off their hands and feet and made them into snakes.

yes. There still are dinosaurs. Look around. They don't live as long and perhaps don't grow as large, and they've adapted to environemental changes, but they are still around, just as they were 6000 - 10000 years ago when God spoke them into existance.

teddyv
Mar 16th 2011, 06:07 PM
Job 40:15-19 HCSB

Look at Behemoth,

which I made along with you.

He eats grass like an ox.

Look at the strength of his loins

and the power in the muscles of his belly.

He stiffens his tail like a cedar tree;

the tendons of his thighs are woven firmly together.

His bones are bronze tubes;

his limbs are like iron rods.

He is the foremost of God's works;

[only] his Maker can draw the sword against him.

Probably a hippopotamus...

Nihil Obstat
Mar 16th 2011, 06:09 PM
Pottery from Peru

Wow. Is this... real? That's amazing! How do people explain this?

keck553
Mar 16th 2011, 06:21 PM
Wow. Is this... real? That's amazing! How do people explain this?

You mean how do those scientists overflowing with wisdom, more wisdom that God apparently explain this?

Oh yeah, it's an animal that vaguely resembles something we recognize as existing today. That's it. So wise, those scientists, and how profound thier scientific method that they can read their bias into anything.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 16th 2011, 06:33 PM
The only thing I can think of as a plausible explanation from someone denying that dinosaurs and humans co-existed is that this tribe un-earthed a triceratops skeleton.

teddyv
Mar 16th 2011, 06:38 PM
Probably from Europe...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Bevan_Crest.jpg

RollTide21
Mar 16th 2011, 06:40 PM
Probably from Europe...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Bevan_Crest.jpgWhat is that supposed to be?

teddyv
Mar 16th 2011, 06:41 PM
What is that supposed to be?

It's a griffin (or gryphon). From medieval lore.

keck553
Mar 16th 2011, 06:46 PM
How do you know that 'lore' wasn't rooted in something that no longer exists?

teddyv
Mar 16th 2011, 06:59 PM
How do you know that 'lore' wasn't rooted in something that no longer exists?

Just reading a bit more, the griffin appears to originate with the Greeks. Must all lore be rooted in reality? Does every work of fantasy have to draw upon reality?


The only thing I can think of as a plausible explanation from someone denying that dinosaurs and humans co-existed is that this tribe un-earthed a triceratops skeleton. Interestingly the wiki article suggests just that with respect to the griffin:

Adrienne Mayor, a classical folklorist, proposes that the griffin was an ancient misconception derived from the fossilized remains of the Protoceratops found in gold mines in the Altai mountains of Scythia, in present day southeastern Kazakhstan.[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin

cowboy_tech
Mar 16th 2011, 07:06 PM
Probably a hippopotamus...

And a hippo has a tail the size of a tree?

Slina
Mar 16th 2011, 07:19 PM
Most lore does come from reality, though not necessarily very directly. Supposedly vampires originated with tuberculosis patients combined with a need for explanation of mysterious deaths, while centaurs came from the ancient Greeks (or one of the ancient peoples anyway) seeing horseback riders for the first time. Not to say that all depictions of dinosaurs and dragons are obviously fake or anything, since I do believe they co-existed with people initially at least. Personally, I think dinosaurs probably mostly died out after the flood due to change in environment along with any other species that simply couldn't handle the new environment for whatever reason, and any that survived just aren't seen much anymore if they're even recognized at all.

RollTide21
Mar 16th 2011, 08:13 PM
It's a griffin (or gryphon). From medieval lore.Wait. Are you comparing that creature to a Peruvian drawing that nearly identically resembles a creature for which we have complete fossil record?

keck553
Mar 16th 2011, 08:24 PM
Just reading a bit more, the griffin appears to originate with the Greeks. Must all lore be rooted in reality? Does every work of fantasy have to draw upon reality?

I do not know. Just a thought.


Interestingly the wiki article suggests just that with respect to the griffin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin

Interesting.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 16th 2011, 09:07 PM
And a hippo has a tail the size of a tree?

I agree with Mark's study laid out here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/211207-Behemoth-maturity-warning). Just sayin'.

RabbiKnife
Mar 16th 2011, 09:30 PM
What is that supposed to be?

GRIFFINDOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

Bandit
Mar 16th 2011, 10:18 PM
This question has been on my mine quite a while now, and this is what I think, god created adam and eve, plus dinosaurs and all the animals, then the flood, so here is where it gets confusing, did the dinos die out before or after the flood, I think they died before the flood, because before sin all the animals ate leaves and plants, so when they ate the apple dinosaurs would of started eating other animals therefore dominating the humans so god killed them off, this is just a guess, I have no idea what do all of you think?

Since dinosaur bones are found in the fossil record, they were alive at the time of Noah's flood. And there is evidence they lived after leaving the ark.

Raybob
Mar 17th 2011, 08:00 AM
This question has been on my mine quite a while now, and this is what I think, god created adam and eve, plus dinosaurs and all the animals, then the flood, so here is where it gets confusing, did the dinos die out before or after the flood, I think they died before the flood, because before sin all the animals ate leaves and plants, so when they ate the apple dinosaurs would of started eating other animals therefore dominating the humans so god killed them off, this is just a guess, I have no idea what do all of you think?Dinosaurs are simply called dragons and such. There are many accounts of dragon slayers in history. Look at the fire breathing dragon, Leviathan.

Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn? Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee? Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever? Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens? Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants? Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears? Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more. Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him? None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me? Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine. I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion. Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle? Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about. His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal. One is so near to another, that no air can come between them. They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered. By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth. In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him. The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved. His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone. When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves. The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon. He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble. Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear. Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire. He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment. He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary. Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
(Job 41:1-34)

Surely Noah and family were smart enough to know to take baby dinos to fit on the ark. After the flood, men were told they could eat meat from beasts. Before the flood, men were vegetarians. That's why they all are extinct. Lots of meat on one of those. :)

RabbiKnife
Mar 17th 2011, 01:43 PM
The dinosaurs came in sometime between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

Firefighter
Mar 17th 2011, 01:48 PM
GAPPER!!!!! :lol:

RabbiKnife
Mar 17th 2011, 01:50 PM
I thought a gapper was a girl from High Point that could eat spaghetti with her jaws clenched...

:D

Fenris
Mar 17th 2011, 01:56 PM
Maybe one day God will give the snake back its arms and legs. Like "Jurassic park". :hmm:

divaD
Mar 17th 2011, 03:02 PM
The dinosaurs came in sometime between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.



Saying that doesn't prove a thing. Where are the Scriptures that support this? Show one Scripture where God ever created one animal prior to creation day 5?

RabbiKnife
Mar 17th 2011, 06:31 PM
Show one Scripture that God created the world in Genesis 1:2 from nothing, as is often taught.
Show one Scripture that demonstrates exactly how the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters if the earth was no already in existence prior to verse 3.

God made something void and purposeless. Hmmm.. somehow that doesn't comport with the God I see in Scripture. Peter also references the destruction of the old earth prior to the current earth.

Probably as much Biblical support for the Gap as there is for the Trinity. Or more.

Firefighter
Mar 17th 2011, 06:36 PM
Probably as much Biblical support for the Gap as there is for the Trinity. Or more.

Now you've done it. They will be coming out of the woodwork again... :B


:D

RabbiKnife
Mar 17th 2011, 06:44 PM
Now you've done it. They will be coming out of the woodwork again... :B


:D

Just troll trolling.

keck553
Mar 17th 2011, 07:25 PM
Just troll trolling.

Of course dinosaurs lived among men. Fred even had one as a pet for crying out loud.....

RabbiKnife
Mar 17th 2011, 07:26 PM
Of course dinosaurs lived among men. Fred even had one as a pet for crying out loud.....

Are bronto ribs kosher?

Fenris
Mar 17th 2011, 07:33 PM
Are bronto ribs kosher?

Split hooves/chews it's cud?

'Fraid not. :cry:

keck553
Mar 17th 2011, 08:06 PM
Are bronto ribs kosher?

ah no. not even before Moses.

divaD
Mar 17th 2011, 08:24 PM
Of course dinosaurs lived among men. Fred even had one as a pet for crying out loud.....



Perhaps this explains the mysteries of the pyramids and how all those massive boulders got moved from one place to the next. It wasn't aliens, and wasn't man alone, it was man and dinosaurs working together. And why not? It worked on the Flintstones didn't it? who's to say it wasn't like that ages ago? LOL.

Fenris
Mar 17th 2011, 08:28 PM
Dude that is brilliant. Just brilliant! :pp

divaD
Mar 17th 2011, 08:41 PM
I see in Scripture. Peter also references the destruction of the old earth prior to the current earth.



The only other person I've heard use that passage to support that is Arnold Murray. You don't listen to him, do you? Not accusing, just asking, since Murray is the only one I've known to use that passage like that. The passage Murry uses is this:

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


All one has to do is look back into the previous contexts of 2 Peter, and it tells us exactly what the world that then was is referring to. And besides that, world and earth are used in this passage, and they aren't the same Greek word. But here's that other passage that tells us exactly what the world that then was is referring to.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

There's the world of old that was destroyed. It was the world of the ungodly. It was the world that was destroyed via the flood in Noah's time.

RabbiKnife
Mar 17th 2011, 08:46 PM
Murray is a loon.

The world of Noah was not standing "in the water and out of the water."
The world described in Genesis 1:1 and then recreate din 1:2 is clearly in the water and out of the water.

keck553
Mar 17th 2011, 08:58 PM
Murray is a loon.

The world of Noah was not standing "in the water and out of the water."
The world described in Genesis 1:1 and then recreate din 1:2 is clearly in the water and out of the water.

Right now, I need a glass of water...

divaD
Mar 17th 2011, 09:10 PM
Murray is a loon.




Well at least I agree with you there, lol.

divaD
Mar 17th 2011, 09:15 PM
The world of Noah was not standing "in the water and out of the water."
The world described in Genesis 1:1 and then recreate din 1:2 is clearly in the water and out of the water.

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


But notice what it states here.. the world that then was. Not the earth that then was, but the world that then was. That points back to 2 Peter 2:5 just like I showed.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Both of these verses are saying the exact same thing.

Phish
Mar 18th 2011, 03:21 AM
Show one Scripture that God created the world in Genesis 1:2 from nothing, as is often taught.
Show one Scripture that demonstrates exactly how the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters if the earth was no already in existence prior to verse 3.

God made something void and purposeless. Hmmm.. somehow that doesn't comport with the God I see in Scripture. Peter also references the destruction of the old earth prior to the current earth.

Probably as much Biblical support for the Gap as there is for the Trinity. Or more.



I agree with this and the earth could well be older than what we think, however, I wouldn't use it to suppose that Dinosaurs were alive Pre-Creation as we know it and died out or were destroyed. Death never entered into this world until Sin did. Dinosaurs died after Man sinned.

Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

percho
Mar 18th 2011, 04:03 AM
I agree with this and the earth could well be older than what we think, however, I wouldn't use it to suppose that Dinosaurs were alive Pre-Creation as we know it and died out or were destroyed. Death never entered into this world until Sin did. Dinosaurs died after Man sinned.

Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Did the angels sin before or after man was created? After all Satan was in the garden with Eve and Adam. Now angels can not die however if they were on the earth with plants and animals prior to the earth becoming without form and void maybe the plants died because of the sin of the angels. After all do animals die today because of their sin or ours?

Phish
Mar 18th 2011, 04:17 AM
Did the angels sin before or after man was created? After all Satan was in the garden with Eve and Adam. Now angels can not die however if they were on the earth with plants and animals prior to the earth becoming without form and void maybe the plants died because of the sin of the angels. After all do animals die today because of their sin or ours?

That would go against romans 5:12 as we are suppossing the world never stopped existing but rather re-created., As far as I know, The Bible doesn't say when angles fell, although we must guess that it was before Adam and Eve sinned. Could the fall of an angle bring death since like you said they don't die? Death was a punishment that God imposed upon man if man disobeyed Him and ate of the fruit. I don't think God would say to angles if you disobey me I will kill evrything else.

Also, If Man was eating fruit before the fall and thus ending the exsistance of said fruit, then does plant life count as life in the context of this discussion.

percho
Mar 18th 2011, 05:11 AM
That would go against romans 5:12 as we are suppossing the world never stopped existing but rather re-created., As far as I know, The Bible doesn't say when angles fell, although we must guess that it was before Adam and Eve sinned. Could the fall of an angle bring death since like you said they don't die? Death was a punishment that God imposed upon man if man disobeyed Him and ate of the fruit. I don't think God would say to angles if you disobey me I will kill evrything else.

Also, If Man was eating fruit before the fall and thus ending the exsistance of said fruit, then does plant life count as life in the context of this discussion.

So did Romans 5:12 cover the knats on the fruit and the ants crawling around or just the vertebrates?

RabbiKnife
Mar 18th 2011, 12:59 PM
Perhaps Romans 5:12 is not speaking of physical death but of spiritual death.

Phish
Mar 18th 2011, 04:00 PM
Perhaps Romans 5:12 is not speaking of physical death but of spiritual death.

Can one be seperated from the other? Death was the result of Man's sin spiritual and physical.

RabbiKnife
Mar 18th 2011, 04:03 PM
Really?

What is death?

Do you believe that nothing in the Garden died? What about plants? Microbes? Mice? Rabbits? Elephants?

Without death of plants and animals, the soil would be depleted of nutrients and all plant life and then animal life would die.

Other than Romans 5:12 and the interpretation you hold, is there any other passage of Scripture that says "sin = physical death," and that physical death did not exist prior to Adam's particular sin? Sin certainly existed before Adam and Eve.

If there was no death, then why was there a Tree of Life in the Garden?

Phish
Mar 18th 2011, 04:16 PM
Really?

What is death?

Do you believe that nothing in the Garden died? What about plants? Microbes? Mice? Rabbits? Elephants?

Without death of plants and animals, the soil would be depleted of nutrients and all plant life and then animal life would die.

Other than Romans 5:12 and the interpretation you hold, is there any other passage of Scripture that says "sin = physical death," and that physical death did not exist prior to Adam's particular sin? Sin certainly existed before Adam and Eve.

If there was no death, then why was there a Tree of Life in the Garden?

Yes really!

God designed plants and fruit to be food, he didn't design animals to or man to die

Are you saying Adam would have died anyway even if he had not sinned?

What do you think the tree of life is? Why did it have to be guarded by not one but two angles after the curse?

RabbiKnife
Mar 18th 2011, 04:20 PM
God kept Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life so that they wouldn't eat and life eternally in their sinful state.

Two Angels, one for Adam, one for Eve. Who knows?

Yes, I think Adam would have eventually died even if he had not sinned. There is no biblical reason to think otherwise, unless he had eaten of the Tree of Life in his pre-sin state.

So plants pre-Adam sin died. Doesn't that destroy the "sin = physical death" argument?

Where do you find any support for the idea that "animals are not designed to die?"

If you start with 2 mice in the Garden, the world is crushed under the weight of mice in less than 1000 years if none of them die.

Phish
Mar 18th 2011, 04:39 PM
God kept Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life so that they wouldn't eat and life eternally in their sinful state.

Two Angels, one for Adam, one for Eve. Who knows?

Yes, I think Adam would have eventually died even if he had not sinned. There is no biblical reason to think otherwise, unless he had eaten of the Tree of Life in his pre-sin state.

So plants pre-Adam sin died. Doesn't that destroy the "sin = physical death" argument?

Where do you find any support for the idea that "animals are not designed to die?"

If you start with 2 mice in the Garden, the world is crushed under the weight of mice in less than 1000 years if none of them die.

I think there is more biblical support for Man being created not to die than there is for man being created to die physically speaking, as I mentioned before before, Plants and Fruit were designed for the purpose of consumption, unless your a treehugger I wouldn't put them in the same catagory with Man.

RabbiKnife
Mar 18th 2011, 04:40 PM
Exactly what biblical support do you have other than the one verse in Romans 5:12?

Firefighter
Mar 18th 2011, 04:42 PM
Exactly what biblical support do you have other than the one verse in Romans 5:12?

How many times does God have to say it before it's true? ~ G.I. Barber :lol:

RabbiKnife
Mar 18th 2011, 04:44 PM
How many times does God have to say it before it's true? ~ G.I. Barber :lol:

At least once.

:D

Phish
Mar 18th 2011, 04:46 PM
Exactly what biblical support do you have other than the one verse in Romans 5:12?


Do you have any biblical support for your views. How many times does it need to be in the bibl for it to be true anyway.

Firefighter
Mar 18th 2011, 04:48 PM
How many times does God have to say it before it's true? ~ G.I. Barber :lol:


How many times does it need to be in the bibl for it to be true anyway.

:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:

RabbiKnife
Mar 18th 2011, 04:53 PM
Once is sufficient. That's the point. Romans 5 is so clear in its its context that the issue is spiritual separation from God, not physical death. It doesn't support your position at all.

So easy even a cave man can do it.

Phish
Mar 18th 2011, 05:46 PM
Once is sufficient. That's the point. Romans 5 is so clear in its its context that the issue is spiritual separation from God, not physical death. It doesn't support your position at all.

So easy even a cave man can do it.

Says who, you?

When the serpent came to Eve telling her she wouldn't die if she ate the fruit you think she thought spiritual death?

I have more biblical support at this time, Please show me why in scripture your view is correct

until then it is jus the spectulation and musings of RabbiKnife and nothing more. If you have anything from scripture to support what your saying please say it, otherwise I'm done.

crawfish
Mar 18th 2011, 06:39 PM
yes. There still are dinosaurs. Look around. They don't live as long and perhaps don't grow as large, and they've adapted to environemental changes, but they are still around, just as they were 6000 - 10000 years ago when God spoke them into existance.

There are dinosaurs still around today. They're called birds. Don't tease that rooster or he'll channel his inner T-Rex. :D

crawfish
Mar 18th 2011, 06:39 PM
Says who, you?

When the serpent came to Eve telling her she wouldn't die if she ate the fruit you think she though spiritual death?

I have more biblical support at this time, Please show me why in scripture your view is correct

until then it is jus the spectulation and musings of RabbiKnife and nothing more. If you have anything from scripture to support what your saying please say it, otherwise I'm done.

Did she die the day she ate the fruit? If not, then either God lied or you're misunderstanding.

Liquid Tension
Mar 18th 2011, 06:42 PM
There are dinosaurs still around today. They're called birds. Don't tease that rooster or he'll channel his inner T-Rex. :D

Fighting chickens are pretty scary when they are chasing you. Honest.

Phish
Mar 18th 2011, 06:44 PM
Fighting chickens are pretty scary when they are chasing you. Honest.

especially with them blades on, someone died recently from that

RabbiKnife
Mar 18th 2011, 06:47 PM
Then be done.

Romans 5 clearly is a development of the doctrine of spiritual death through the sin of Adam and the possibility of spiritual life being restored through the sacrifice of the last Adam, Jesus.

Nothing in the passage even hints at "physical death" being discussed. Only one's doctrinal presupposition brought to the text would draw one to that conclusion.

crawfish
Mar 18th 2011, 06:54 PM
Fighting chickens are pretty scary when they are chasing you. Honest.

Heh, I know. My wife's uncle used to keep his older sister out of their house by putting the rooster in the yard. The dogs wouldn't mess with it either. :)

Liquid Tension
Mar 19th 2011, 01:05 AM
Heh, I know. My wife's uncle used to keep his older sister out of their house by putting the rooster in the yard. The dogs wouldn't mess with it either. :)

I'd put one in my yard, but it'd probably chase me also. :D

Raybob
Mar 19th 2011, 01:12 AM
Then be done.

Romans 5 clearly is a development of the doctrine of spiritual death through the sin of Adam and the possibility of spiritual life being restored through the sacrifice of the last Adam, Jesus.

Nothing in the passage even hints at "physical death" being discussed. Only one's doctrinal presupposition brought to the text would draw one to that conclusion.AMEN!!

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Rom 5:11-12)

We didn't recieve that atonement for our phyiscal bodies.

divaD
Mar 19th 2011, 03:42 AM
Yes, I think Adam would have eventually died even if he had not sinned. There is no biblical reason to think otherwise, unless he had eaten of the Tree of Life in his pre-sin state.


Doesn't this present an interesting dilemna for God then?

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


for the sake of argument, let's suppose Adam nor Eve never partakes of this tree, but they eventually die. In Genesis 2:17 God stated this...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So how did Adam die then? Why would God be playing games like that? You might say..well Adam didn't die that same day now did he. But the thinj is, according to Scriptures, he did die that very same day.

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.


Notice that Adam died the same day. You won't find one single person in all of the Bible who lived to be over a 1000 years. Everybody dies the same day they're born. Keeping in mind that 1000 years can be the equal of one day in God's eyes. Most folks reject Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 as being proof of anything..and that's fine...to each his own. But I'm convinced it actually means something other than what folks make out of it.

But getting back to Genesis 2:17. God said Adam would surely die the day he eats of the forbidden tree. Nowhere does it say he would surely die if he didn't partake of the forbidden tree. Why would God want Adam to die if he stayed away from the forbidden tree? That doesn't make sense. If Adam would have kept God's commandment, there would have been no reason for him to die. It's the wages of sin that is death. If Adam had not sinned, he would have had no reason to die. Obviously then, the death Adam would die if he partook of the forbidden tree, it was physical death, and not spiritual death.

percho
Mar 19th 2011, 04:41 AM
Doesn't this present an interesting dilemna for God then?

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


for the sake of argument, let's suppose Adam nor Eve never partakes of this tree, but they eventually die. In Genesis 2:17 God stated this...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So how did Adam die then? Why would God be playing games like that? You might say..well Adam didn't die that same day now did he. But the thinj is, according to Scriptures, he did die that very same day.

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.


Notice that Adam died the same day. You won't find one single person in all of the Bible who lived to be over a 1000 years. Everybody dies the same day they're born. Keeping in mind that 1000 years can be the equal of one day in God's eyes. Most folks reject Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 as being proof of anything..and that's fine...to each his own. But I'm convinced it actually means something other than what folks make out of it.

But getting back to Genesis 2:17. God said Adam would surely die the day he eats of the forbidden tree. Nowhere does it say he would surely die if he didn't partake of the forbidden tree. Why would God want Adam to die if he stayed away from the forbidden tree? That doesn't make sense. If Adam would have kept God's commandment, there would have been no reason for him to die. It's the wages of sin that is death. If Adam had not sinned, he would have had no reason to die. Obviously then, the death Adam would die if he partook of the forbidden tree, it was physical death, and not spiritual death.

Literally it says dying thou dost die. Dying thou shall surly die. This began when he ate, therefore sinned. What does this mean? Does it not have the exact same meaning as being dead in tresspass and sins as in Eph. 2:1? Does not Eph. 2:3,4 say that this is true of all men? Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh. The day he ate he became dead in tresspass and sin.

It wasn't even a question of IF, but when. In the day thou eatest thereof. The Lamb had already been slain in the mind of God. Adam was going to sin and die.

divaD
Mar 19th 2011, 05:11 AM
It wasn't even a question of IF, but when. In the day thou eatest thereof. The Lamb had already been slain in the mind of God. Adam was going to sin and die.


I don't disagree with this conclusion. But for argument's sake, let's say Adam never did eat of the forbidden tree. How would he have then died at some point? That's the point I was addressing in my prev post. RK believes Adam would have eventually died regardless. Personally I don't see how nor why, if he had stayed away from the forbidden tree.

GitRDunn
Mar 19th 2011, 04:43 PM
Doesn't this present an interesting dilemna for God then?

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


for the sake of argument, let's suppose Adam nor Eve never partakes of this tree, but they eventually die. In Genesis 2:17 God stated this...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So how did Adam die then? Why would God be playing games like that? You might say..well Adam didn't die that same day now did he. But the thinj is, according to Scriptures, he did die that very same day.

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.


Notice that Adam died the same day. You won't find one single person in all of the Bible who lived to be over a 1000 years. Everybody dies the same day they're born. Keeping in mind that 1000 years can be the equal of one day in God's eyes. Most folks reject Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 as being proof of anything..and that's fine...to each his own. But I'm convinced it actually means something other than what folks make out of it.

But getting back to Genesis 2:17. God said Adam would surely die the day he eats of the forbidden tree. Nowhere does it say he would surely die if he didn't partake of the forbidden tree. Why would God want Adam to die if he stayed away from the forbidden tree? That doesn't make sense. If Adam would have kept God's commandment, there would have been no reason for him to die. It's the wages of sin that is death. If Adam had not sinned, he would have had no reason to die. Obviously then, the death Adam would die if he partook of the forbidden tree, it was physical death, and not spiritual death.
If physical death entered the world through Adam, and Jesus, according to Scripture, negates this death, why do we all still physically die? Don't you see how obvious it is that Jesus saved us from spiritual death, not physical death? And if this is the case, wouldn't all of the verses being used to show death entered the world through Adam and Eve obviously be talking about spiritual death as well?

Phish
Mar 19th 2011, 05:51 PM
If physical death entered the world through Adam, and Jesus, according to Scripture, negates this death, why do we all still physically die? Don't you see how obvious it is that Jesus saved us from spiritual death, not physical death? And if this is the case, wouldn't all of the verses being used to show death entered the world through Adam and Eve obviously be talking about spiritual death as well?


Sin and Death Death entered the world through Adam, Obviously there are 2 kinds of Death, Physical and Spiritual. I do agree that Romas 5 is talking more about Spiritual Death than the Physical, however, I believe that Adam's sin introduced both physical and spiritual death into the world and that they are linked one with the other. Jesus did come to save us from spiritual death however, he cried when he saw the ravages of physical death with lazarus in John 11 and I beleive thats because physical death was not his design, but rather the result of man's sin. Going back to John 11 Vs 36 says, see how much he loved him. Why would Jesus cry over physical death?

When the serpent said to Eve, you will not surely die did Eve think spiritual death or physical death?

I don't see anything in scripture to indicate that physical death was part of God's design or that is is natural. To suggest otherwise is mere speculation and can't be proved. You might say you can't prove the reverse in which you may be correct. However, I think there is evidence to suggest that God dod not create man to die.

I find this verse interesting in light of this discussion. does it mean only Spiritual death, Physical death or both?

v 21:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=21&t=KJV#4)And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

divaD
Mar 19th 2011, 06:48 PM
If physical death entered the world through Adam, and Jesus, according to Scripture, negates this death, why do we all still physically die? Don't you see how obvious it is that Jesus saved us from spiritual death, not physical death? And if this is the case, wouldn't all of the verses being used to show death entered the world through Adam and Eve obviously be talking about spiritual death as well?



I think you have it backwards. Jesus had to die physically to save us, not spiritually. What did He save us from? Death itself. Notice that some will never be afforded eternal life. The ones that do receive eternal life, death will no longer be able to hold them, just like it couldn't hold Jesus. If Jesus wouldn't have paid the price, not a single soul would be able to live forever. We would all be dead forever, just like those of the 2nd death will be. They will never live again at that point.

percho
Mar 19th 2011, 07:43 PM
I think you have it backwards. Jesus had to die physically to save us, not spiritually. What did He save us from? Death itself. Notice that some will never be afforded eternal life. The ones that do receive eternal life, death will no longer be able to hold them, just like it couldn't hold Jesus. If Jesus wouldn't have paid the price, not a single soul would be able to live forever. We would all be dead forever, just like those of the 2nd death will be. They will never live again at that point.

How could the physical death of Jesus save us from spiritual death? Now when Jesus said this, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, was he seperated from God the Father? Taken from Psalms 22 did this not cover the total period of his death or to a nanosecond leading up to his death?

divaD
Mar 19th 2011, 08:04 PM
How could the physical death of Jesus save us from spiritual death?


Exactly! And that was my point, since Adam didn't die spiritually, but physically instead. The point many are missing..before Jesus died, satan held the keys to death and hell. Jesus went and got those keys, and by doing so, the captives were set free. Now death can no longer hold those that are in Christ. If it was spiritual death that Jesus saved us from, then what about all the OT saints? They would have already been dead and gone before Jesus even died. So how would they have benefited, if this only applies to this life and future from Jesus' death, such as in a spiritual resurrection? Don't some teach that the 1st resurrection in Rev 20, that it applies to this side of life? So how would the dead OT saints benefit from a spiritual resurrection that only applies to the physically alive in Christ, as in like this present age for example?

mattlad22
Mar 19th 2011, 08:05 PM
How could the physical death of Jesus save us from spiritual death? Now when Jesus said this, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, was he seperated from God the Father? Taken from Psalms 22 did this not cover the total period of his death or to a nanosecond leading up to his death?

Jesus had to turn on God to die, He literally had to sin againts God in order to literally die in the flesh. So when He said "Eli,Eli, lama sabachthani?" He let sin enter, then before He died He said "Father, into Your hands i commit my spirit" Giving Himself to God.

The physical act of Jesus dying isnt what saves us from spiritual death, but the physical act of dying was required so that He could give up His spirit to the Father, in doing so He defeated death through the Father by doing the will of Him who sent Him.

He made Father blink for a second for our sakes and His will in a manner of speaking.

mattlad22
Mar 19th 2011, 08:10 PM
Exactly! And that was my point, since Adam didn't die spiritually, but physically instead. The point many are missing..before Jesus died, satan held the keys to death and hell. Jesus went and got those keys, and by doing so, the captives were set free. Now death can no longer hold those that are in Christ. If it was spiritual death that Jesus saved us from, then what about all the OT saints? They would have already been dead and gone before Jesus even died. So how would they have benefited, if this only applies to this life and future from Jesus' death, such as in a spiritual resurrection? Don't some teach that the 1st resurrection in Rev 20, that it applies to this side of life? So how would the dead OT saints benefit from a spiritual resurrection that only applies to the physically alive in Christ, as in like this present age for example?

What do you mean how would dead Ot saints benefit from a spiritual ressurection that only applies to the physically alive in Christ?
When are those physically alive only resurrected in Christ?
(symbolically the only time that ever happens is on an individual basis where one believes in Christ, they are spiritually resurrected in Christ while in a physical body.)

I just realized i probably hijacked this thread, I apologise.

GitRDunn
Mar 19th 2011, 08:58 PM
Exactly! And that was my point, since Adam didn't die spiritually, but physically instead. The point many are missing..before Jesus died, satan held the keys to death and hell. Jesus went and got those keys, and by doing so, the captives were set free. Now death can no longer hold those that are in Christ. If it was spiritual death that Jesus saved us from, then what about all the OT saints? They would have already been dead and gone before Jesus even died. So how would they have benefited, if this only applies to this life and future from Jesus' death, such as in a spiritual resurrection? Don't some teach that the 1st resurrection in Rev 20, that it applies to this side of life? So how would the dead OT saints benefit from a spiritual resurrection that only applies to the physically alive in Christ, as in like this present age for example?
Do you or do you not think that you will physically die one day?

Ascender
Mar 20th 2011, 12:28 AM
Dinosaurs came in on the 5th day of creation and left when Mankind caused their extinction.

BrckBrln
Mar 20th 2011, 01:54 AM
Dinosaurs came in on the 5th day of creation and left when Mankind caused their extinction.

And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day. Genesis 1:20-23

So.....do you not believe in land based dinosaurs?

Ascender
Mar 20th 2011, 04:33 AM
And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day. Genesis 1:20-23

So.....do you not believe in land based dinosaurs?

Got called...should have added the sixth day as well. My Bad.

RabbiKnife
Mar 21st 2011, 01:14 PM
Six pages of responses and still the only verse in the entire bible cited in support of "sin = physical death" is Romans 5:12.

Question: If Eve didn't know what physical death was, how did her conversation with the Serpent make any sense.

"Eve...if you eat this fruit, you won't really supercallifragilisticexpeolidious...God didn't really mean that."

If animals weren't intended to die, exactly how many rats did God create and what was their birth rate/population growth cycle? What did lions eat? T-Rex wasn't exactly a herbivore, now was he?

Nihil Obstat
Mar 21st 2011, 01:35 PM
I think divaD made an excellent observation. Besides, the "dying thou shalt die" thing did not mean that Adam would die that day, but that on that day God would sentence Adam to death. Adam surely did die, we all agree, but he wasn't "a dead man", as the saying goes, until he ate from the forbidden tree. Furthermore, the discourse between the serpent and the woman was written for the sake of those who did know what death looked like, so that's not all that problematic in my eyes. The real problem is what divaD brought up: Was Adam going to die whether he ate from the tree or not?

ProDeo
Mar 21st 2011, 02:13 PM
If physical death entered the world through Adam, and Jesus, according to Scripture, negates this death, why do we all still physically die? Don't you see how obvious it is that Jesus saved us from spiritual death, not physical death? And if this is the case, wouldn't all of the verses being used to show death entered the world through Adam and Eve obviously be talking about spiritual death as well?

To me Scripture only teaches first and second death. The Genesis story tells us the main facts, God is our Creator, we are his creatures and we die because of sin.

divaD
Mar 21st 2011, 03:07 PM
why do we all still physically die? Don't you see how obvious it is that Jesus saved us from spiritual death, not physical death?


Even tho I see your point, I think you're still missing the point. Even tho we still physically die, do some of us remain physically dead forever? No. Had Jesus not paid the price, not a one of us would ever rise from the dead and become immortal. I'm not saying that He saves us from the physical death we all have to die. I'm saying that He saves us from the final death..as in we will never die, since we can't be hurt of the 2nd death, which IMO, is the death we all would have faced, had it not been for Jesus. No one rises from the 2nd death..no one. Can't you see that Jesus had to die in order to bring us up from the dead, so that we didn't remain dead forever?

Since you stated that Jesus saved us from spiritual death, could you define exactly what that means? Can you show why Adam died physically, if the death was just spiritual? The Bible only speaks of 2 kinds of deaths, not three. If there's spiritual and physical, how then can there be a 2nd death? Shouldn't it be called the 3rd death instead?

GitRDunn
Mar 21st 2011, 04:35 PM
I think divaD made an excellent observation. Besides, the "dying thou shalt die" thing did not mean that Adam would die that day, but that on that day God would sentence Adam to death. Adam surely did die, we all agree, but he wasn't "a dead man", as the saying goes, until he ate from the forbidden tree. Furthermore, the discourse between the serpent and the woman was written for the sake of those who did know what death looked like, so that's not all that problematic in my eyes. The real problem is what divaD brought up: Was Adam going to die whether he ate from the tree or not?
So, are you saying the this part wasn't literal and is not necessarily exactly what happened in the exchange between the serpent and Eve?


Even tho I see your point, I think you're still missing the point. Even tho we still physically die, do some of us remain physically dead forever? No. Had Jesus not paid the price, not a one of us would ever rise from the dead and become immortal. I'm not saying that He saves us from the physical death we all have to die. I'm saying that He saves us from the final death..as in we will never die, since we can't be hurt of the 2nd death, which IMO, is the death we all would have faced, had it not been for Jesus. No one rises from the 2nd death..no one. Can't you see that Jesus had to die in order to bring us up from the dead, so that we didn't remain dead forever?

Since you stated that Jesus saved us from spiritual death, could you define exactly what that means? Can you show why Adam died physically, if the death was just spiritual? The Bible only speaks of 2 kinds of deaths, not three. If there's spiritual and physical, how then can there be a 2nd death? Shouldn't it be called the 3rd death instead?
The way I see it, I don't define "spiritual death" as a "3rd death", in the way that you mean it. When I say spiritual death, I mean that our spirits have been separated from God and will go to Hell after we die our physical death. Christ's sacrifice saves us from this "death" by repairing our relationship with God (which was broken by sin) and thus we "live" spiritually (we spend eternity in Heaven). When Adam ate the fruit, he sinned and his relationship with God was broken, so he experienced "spiritual death" in the sense that his spirit would not go to Hell after his physical death (the broken relationship is symbolized by the fact that he was removed from the Garden of Eden.

percho
Mar 21st 2011, 04:54 PM
I think divaD made an excellent observation. Besides, the "dying thou shalt die" thing did not mean that Adam would die that day, but that on that day God would sentence Adam to death. Adam surely did die, we all agree, but he wasn't "a dead man", as the saying goes, until he ate from the forbidden tree. Furthermore, the discourse between the serpent and the woman was written for the sake of those who did know what death looked like, so that's not all that problematic in my eyes. The real problem is what divaD brought up: Was Adam going to die whether he ate from the tree or not?

Adam was not created into the kingdom of God. He was created from, on and for this earthly kingdom as a living soul of corruptible substance. He like all since him born of the flesh in order to see, enter and/or inherit the kingdom of God would need to be born of the Spirit, the tree of life. The kingdom of God is the gospel. Jesus first taught it, those that heard from him taught it, (includes Paul). Adam was created for this world yet through his kind one would come that through him Adam (man) would be made fit for the world to come (the kingdom of God). He also would be made to die that through death he could be resurrected to life again thus destroying Satan and delivering man from death and the fear of death. What I am saying is the first Adam (man) did not fall from anything, he was created to die as was the second Adam was made flesh to die. It is not like something went wrong in the garden of Eden it went according to plan.

Hebrews 2 one of the most beautiful chapters in the word of God.

divaD
Mar 21st 2011, 05:09 PM
The way I see it, I don't define "spiritual death" as a "3rd death", in the way that you mean it. When I say spiritual death, I mean that our spirits have been separated from God and will go to Hell after we die our physical death. Christ's sacrifice saves us from this "death" by repairing our relationship with God (which was broken by sin) and thus we "live" spiritually (we spend eternity in Heaven). When Adam ate the fruit, he sinned and his relationship with God was broken, so he experienced "spiritual death" in the sense that his spirit would not go to Hell after his physical death (the broken relationship is symbolized by the fact that he was removed from the Garden of Eden.


In that case, I tend to think we're somewhat on the same page then, even tho it may not seem like it. We're each explaining from different perspectives, but it appears to me that we're both basically saying the same thing, in a roundabout way. My whole point has been, if Adam had not eaten from the forbidden tree, would he have eventually died anyway? If he suffered some kind of spiritual death that caused him to die, what would have caused him to die had he not experienced some form of spiritual death? If he was going to live forever at some point anyway, assuming he never partook of the forbidden tree, then why die at all? That's been my point.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 21st 2011, 06:05 PM
Adam was not created into the kingdom of God. He was created from, on and for this earthly kingdom as a living soul of corruptible substance. He like all since him born of the flesh in order to see, enter and/or inherit the kingdom of God would need to be born of the Spirit, the tree of life. The kingdom of God is the gospel. Jesus first taught it, those that heard from him taught it, (includes Paul). Adam was created for this world yet through his kind one would come that through him Adam (man) would be made fit for the world to come (the kingdom of God). He also would be made to die that through death he could be resurrected to life again thus destroying Satan and delivering man from death and the fear of death. What I am saying is the first Adam (man) did not fall from anything, he was created to die as was the second Adam was made flesh to die. It is not like something went wrong in the garden of Eden it went according to plan.

Hebrews 2 one of the most beautiful chapters in the word of God.

God created Adam to sin? The plan was for mankind to disobey God? I hope I'm misunderstanding you...