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Firefighter
Mar 22nd 2011, 01:25 PM
:B :B :B :B

The Sydney schoolboy who has become a focus of global bullying outrage says he was provoked into the schoolyard fight in which he was thrown heavily to the ground by a bigger, older student.

The year 7 student, who appears to be the antagonist in an ugly video that has gone viral on the internet, told the Seven Network he was also a victim of bullies.

"I got bullied at primary school," he told Seven last night.

His appearance on TV last night followed a Channel Nine interview with the older boy on Sunday, which child psychologist Dr Michael Carr-Gregg called "reprehensible", warning of the potential for further victimisation and self harm.

The year 7 student is depicted as the bully in the video, throwing punches at a year 10 boy, who then picks him up and throws him heavily to the ground.

The Chifley College student also says the bigger boy, 16, had bullied him before the altercation and threw the first punch.

"He abused me first ... he was like 'get to class, you idiot', all that sort of stuff," the boy told Seven.


Full Story (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/im-a-victim-too-video-bully-20110321-1c3u9.html)

BrianW
Mar 22nd 2011, 01:40 PM
You know you're getting old when you say "In the good old days."

Well, in the good old days when I was in school if two guy's had a big enough problem they would just engage in a bit of fisticuffs. You beat the heck out of him or he beat the heck out of you and then that was the end of it. It was no big deal even when you both got busted up pretty good.

The parents didn't scream bloody blue murder and sue everybody they could think of and if it happened at school the teachers would just wait for the bleeding to stop before they paddled the heck out of both of the fighters unless there was a broken bone or something.

Now? I don't know how these kids even get through the day.

-SEEKING-
Mar 22nd 2011, 03:44 PM
I saw that video last week and honestly don't know what to make of it. I mean the little guy is the one that "appears" to be starting all the bullying. Then he gets picked up and body slammed. Can't really say I feel bad for him. He was rather enjoying himself while throwing punches at the bigger kid.

threebigrocks
Mar 22nd 2011, 04:11 PM
When I was in drivers ed, the instructor told us jokingly: yield to anything bigger or more expensive than you are.

Apparently this year 7 student didn't get that message.

We are coming into a time where the standard is if anyone was ever picked on for anything they can get away with anything. It's like blaming your parents for your stinky lot in life when you are 40. You because the victim with you yourself being the bully. Get over it, life isn't fair and if you throw punches don't expect the other guy to enjoy it and ask for more without balling up a fist and returning the favor.

threebigrocks
Mar 22nd 2011, 04:15 PM
And yes, the younger kid landed a solid punch in the face of the older boy. I wouldn't have taken it either.

Liquid Tension
Mar 22nd 2011, 04:40 PM
Well, the younger kid realized that when you want to bother a bigger dog, the bigger dog does bite back sometimes. Like SEEKING said, I don't really feel sorry for the younger kid. In fact, I thought the slam was a beautiful thing (yes, I know it's mean spirited, but it was impressive).

Fenris
Mar 22nd 2011, 04:48 PM
"There is fault on both sides."

Liquid Tension
Mar 22nd 2011, 04:56 PM
Call me jaded, but I just don't believe the younger kid's story. In the video, it appears that he does have backup in case things got too sticky on his side...........so I just don't buy the "I got bullied first" story by him.

Saved7
Mar 22nd 2011, 05:00 PM
Funny, I never thought fighting back was considered bullying....heck if somebody threw a punch at me I'd sure enough fight back with everything I got. Just because you're bigger than someone else, doesn't mean you can't defend yourself.

Jeanne D
Mar 22nd 2011, 05:07 PM
Funny, I never thought fighting back was considered bullying....heck if somebody threw a punch at me I'd sure enough fight back with everything I got. Just because you're bigger than someone else, doesn't mean you can't defend yourself.

In the schools here, you can push someone away if they're hitting you, but if you hit them back, you are arrested, along with the bully.

Jeanne

Firefighter
Mar 22nd 2011, 05:34 PM
In the schools here, you can push someone away if they're hitting you, but if you hit them back, you are arrested, along with the bully.

Jeanne

Can't wait for that one to be challenged in court...

The kid was pummeling a non-aggressive opponent. He got his butt handed to him on a platter. I honestly don't see what the big deal is or why they received equal punishment.

Athanasius
Mar 22nd 2011, 05:45 PM
Can't wait for that one to be challenged in court...

The kid was pummeling a non-aggressive opponent. He got his butt handed to him on a platter. I honestly don't see what the big deal is or why they received equal punishment.

Not only that, but Casey walked away afterwards. If this doesn't fall into the category of 'self-defense' then I'm insane.

Firefighter
Mar 22nd 2011, 05:46 PM
If my child had showed that much restraint before defending himself, his suspension would be a celebration and a vacation, not a punishment.

Ayala
Mar 22nd 2011, 05:58 PM
Many kids seem to only wanna learn from the school of hard knocks, unfortunately.

Diggindeeper
Mar 22nd 2011, 06:37 PM
You know though, that smaller boy DID punch the bigger one in the face. A couple of times! Let me tell you what happened to someone in my own family........

One of my grandsons is Pastoring a church now and has always had a STRONG Christian outlook. Always took a firm stand for Christ and for right. For that reason, and that reason alone, he was the victim of bullying throughout his middle school years and it followed him to high school in his Freshman year. The bullying was from ONE boy! For some reason, he had what seemed like a hatred to James because James exhibited a strong Christian stand at school. In fact, James was instrumental in starting a Christian Club at the high school and that club is still going, although he graduated about 10 years ago.

The bully did things like trip him in the hallway. And my son (James' dad) had to BUY eye glasses THREE times over the years because that boy would run up, jerk off his glasses, and stomp them. Then, he and his 'friends' would walk away laughing. My son kept telling James, "Well son, don't put yourself on his level and fight back." THREE YEARS, you all!

Finally, in his 9th grade, that same boy was still at it. Just because he could. But one day James was in the crowded hallway while they were changing classes and that boy stuck his foot out and tripped James AGAIN. That time, James snapped. He'd had enough after THREE years. He lit into that boy. Gave him a black eye and a bloody nose and whipped the tar out of him. But they BOTH ended up being suspended.

Well, that made me mad, as well as angering my son, James' dad. So we decided that on the day when James was to go before the Principal to try and get back into school that we would all go with him and be there in his defense. I told my son and daughter-in-law to 'dress nice', like they were headed to a funeral or to church. And to take a tape recorder. I mean, all James had done was to FINALLY defend himself! And in our estimation, 3 years of playing victim to ONE smart aleck (hispanic) boy was long enough to turn the other cheek.

Not only was the Principal there, but James' teachers also and they were shocked when my son laid his tape recorder on the table and announced, "Just so you know, I intend to record this session." They delayed the meeting while the Principal went to find a tape recorder for them also! Well, my daughter-in-law went first, telling how she had had to treat his black eyes and bruises for 3 years. My son told them about having to spend out for 3 PAIR OF NEW GLASSES and about how he had advised James over the years. But that James was NOT in trouble at home for finally defending himself. And that it was an act of self defense. Then my turn came.

I pointed to a sign over the table. It said, "This school is a SAFE place" and encouraged students who might be victims of abuse to come there and they would guarantee they would be safe. I told them, "Its not been safe for my grandson for the past 3 years and I hold this place responsible. Every one of James' teachers and the students know he is not a trouble maker. You all know the stand he takes as a strong Christian teen, and yet, he gets put out of school along with this other boy who was instigating all of this while you ALL looked the other way. I have personally had to go a couple of times to pick him up at school when his Mom was not at home and couldn't go to get him. I have seen his blackened eyes and his bruises. And I say its about time James defended himself, since YOU, his teachers just let it continue on and on."

We all finished and then some of his teachers spoke in his defense also. Some of them were crying! In the end, he went back to class and it did not go against his record. The other boy ended up having to attend an alternative school that's here for 'offenders' in the public schools. (We saw his parents, who were meeting immediately after us. They looked, well...scuzzy looking. Not poor looking, but 'low class' unkempt looking. Their very appearance spoke volumes.)

James came home that day and called me, saying, "Mamaw, every one of my teachers apologized to me and the one that I had when it was lunch time asked me to stay a few minutes after class. I thought he was going to fuss at me or something for not 'ratting' on that guy sooner. But he asked me if I would have lunch with him. He gave me one of his sandwiches and some potato salad and a cup cake."

James never, never had another encounter with anyone, at all. That ended well. We were a little concerned, because that Principal had made it clear that school board policy was '0 tolerance' for fights or disturbances, as well as for weapons of any kind. If you were in a fight, even in self-defense, you were OUT! And THAT was why James was put out to begin with. But when we offered our defense and truth of the matter, they made an exception for James. In the end, I say the Lord worked it out and softened their hearts.

Size has nothing to do with bullying. The bully just continues to bully BECAUSE HE CAN, and because he CAN get away with it. It should be investigated on a person to person basis, and find out WHO is the instigator. But, the VICTIM should not be punished.

Diggindeeper
Mar 22nd 2011, 06:47 PM
Just want to add an 'after thought'. James' dad, is my son Bobby. I have an article on the board about what happened to HIM when he was in high school! Its called 'BOBBY'S STORY'. There, you can meet James' dad and see what he had also gone through.

He had hurt those 3 years, right along with James and the rest of our family. Because we knew what it was like...

Ayala
Mar 22nd 2011, 07:19 PM
Yeah, I dealt with punk kids the first two years of high school (a time when I wasn't exactly right with Christ)...I still had a sense of morality though. I never wanted to fight. However, it was a large school and there was a lot of fighting. When you're a smaller kid, others sometimes make the assumption that you can't fight or defend yourself...a horrible mistake to make. The first one I ever really dealt with was more talk than anything...I mostly ignored him or walked off. It finally came to a head one day when he tried to mess with me in the changing room and wouldn't let me get to my locker. When I told him to move, he tried to hit me and an altercation started, ending with me slamming him onto a changing bench. Sure enough, we both ended up getting in trouble. I gave the counselor my end and he gave the counselor his. We didn't get suspended fortunately, but we were separated as much as could be possible. He'd try to shoot me cold stares after that but he never came up to me again. Sadly, I learned that years later, he died in a car accident, not wearing his seat-belt. I only hope he changed for the better before that happened. I dealt with others after that and was forced into more fights and causing more hurt that I didn't want to cause. After my 2nd year in high school, I started going to an online school to finish up my last 2 years. I got tired of drama and just wanted to relax. Not long after I graduated, I recommitted myself to Christ and joined this forum. Kids seem to get progressively more bitter and ruthless as time goes on. Likely due to their parents not caring enough to actually keep them in check.

Dani H
Mar 22nd 2011, 07:22 PM
Yes, everybody is a victim that the world owes something to ... No, nobody needs to be held accountable for their behavior and disciplined and corrected. That's how we do it, and it works great, don't it? :rolleyes:

Jeanne D
Mar 22nd 2011, 07:55 PM
Yes, everybody is a victim that the world owes something to ... No, nobody needs to be held accountable for their behavior and disciplined and corrected. That's how we do it, and it works great, don't it? :rolleyes:

Exactly.. that's how a lot of the young people think today. It's always everyone elses fault.
You can't go through life that way. Sooner or later you'll have to answer for your actions.

Jeanne

Dani H
Mar 22nd 2011, 08:08 PM
Exactly.. that's how a lot of the young people think today. It's always everyone elses fault.
You can't go through life that way. Sooner or later you'll have to answer for your actions.

Jeanne

Girl, of COURSE you can go through life that way. People do it all the time!

Sure, they're merely delaying the inevitable and are shooting themselves in the foot when it's all said and done in their foolish, foolish thinking, but it CAN be done. :)

Saved7
Mar 22nd 2011, 08:13 PM
If my child had showed that much restraint before defending himself, his suspension would be a celebration and a vacation, not a punishment.

Amen! My nephew is a big boy, but he's aspurger, so he got picked on a lot in high school. One boy kept pushing and hitting on him until my nephew finally defended himself, and kicked that boys butt. He even told us, he had to restrain himself so he wouldn't hurt the bully picking on him. We all were so proud of him, even gave him a high five! Even his principle understood the situation and knew that my nephew did only what he had to, and was proud of him; but both boys were still suspended.

Saved7
Mar 22nd 2011, 08:23 PM
You know, the more I think of this whole "punish both parties" thing, it really irks me. How can they do that, do they not believe in self defense? Shoot, even people who defend their families and homes from intruders are getting in trouble with the law. This is really no different than what muslims do to their women who have been raped. The woman is usually treated as an adulteress and the rapist goes free. The whole thing flies in the face of righteousness.

Indeed, we have come to a time where what is right is called wrong, and what is wrong is called right.

IMINXTC
Mar 22nd 2011, 09:03 PM
Big fellow in grade school would actually sneak up to pick me up from behind, twirl me around in circles and then throw me as far as he could. I was recovering from at least two major surgeries and using crutches at the time. Nothing was done about it.

People wondered how I had become such an angry young man, always ready for and looking for a fight. (HaHa)

In those days it was common to just let boys be boys and the biggest sin was to cry or run.

Bullying is very serious business.

-SEEKING-
Mar 22nd 2011, 09:08 PM
The question that's been really getting to me now is, why was this even being recorded?
Who recorded it?
How did they know something was about to happen?
Could it be this was somehow planned? At least the setup to see the reaction?

Kingsdaughter
Mar 22nd 2011, 10:00 PM
If you're going to mess with a bigger kid... expect to get BODY SLAMMED!

mattlad22
Mar 22nd 2011, 10:14 PM
Whatever happened to all this?:

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Paul said, when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; Paul said, If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY, says the Lord. BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Jesus said, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way. Think of someone who has hurt you, or mistreated you, or cursed you. Pray for them now, in love.

I ask the Father in his great glory to give you the power to be strong inwardly through his Spirit. I pray that Christ will live in your hearts by faith and that your life will be strong in love and be built on love.

Why are we celebrating an act of contradiction to the way God asked us to live through His Son?

Vhayes
Mar 22nd 2011, 10:16 PM
Big fellow in grade school would actually sneak up to pick me up from behind, twirl me around in circles and then throw me as far as he could. I was recovering from at least two major surgeries and using crutches at the time. Nothing was done about it.

People wondered how I had become such an angry young man, always ready for and looking for a fight. (HaHa)

In those days it was common to just let boys be boys and the biggest sin was to cry or run.

Bullying is very serious business.

Yes - this is similar to our sons story except he was taller and larger than most. When he would go to the restroom, boys would follow him and literally tear his clothes off of him. When I would complain to the school, I got the, "Matt has problems dealing with others" routine and when I would try and talk to parents, it was always, "My son would NEVER do that."

Bullying creates so many problems. Matt was very close to suicidal a couple of times. We took him to a psychologist and it wasn't until I showed up with that psychologist at a meeting and told the teachers and the school board that the next person they would be talking to would be our attorney that they stopped complaining about Matt's behavior and started looking at the other kids. This, after 6 years of therapy and thousands of dollars in clothing, calculators, books, etc.

And this was in one of the TOP schools in our state where the majority of the students were sons and daughters of doctors and lawyers.

-SEEKING-
Mar 22nd 2011, 10:19 PM
Whatever happened to all this?:

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Paul said, when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; Paul said, If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY, says the Lord. BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Jesus said, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way. Think of someone who has hurt you, or mistreated you, or cursed you. Pray for them now, in love.

I ask the Father in his great glory to give you the power to be strong inwardly through his Spirit. I pray that Christ will live in your hearts by faith and that your life will be strong in love and be built on love.

Why are we celebrating an act of contradiction to the way God asked us to live through His Son?

Do you have children? How would you feel if your child was the target of bullies? Day after day after day. Do you not think that child is entitled to defend themselves?

mattlad22
Mar 22nd 2011, 10:29 PM
Do you have children? How would you feel if your child was the target of bullies? Day after day after day. Do you not think that child is entitled to defend themselves?

I think that child is entitled to by taught those words always, and i think it is your responsibility as the parent to act of the authority to discipline your child in a loving manner so that your child may see God.
I didnt ask you to do these things always. He did.
I never said it was easy.

If it is true to you that an eye for an eye is the appropriate response, you should practice your faith with God always in the matter.
Were not called to do what the flesh wants, were called to be of His spirit, following His Words is how we do that.
When we cant, realize that or maybe take the advice from someone else and pray, get back on your feet, try again, dont give up.

As for your first question. No, I havent been blessed with children, nor am i blessed with a kindered mate.

-SEEKING-
Mar 22nd 2011, 10:45 PM
As for your first question. No, I havent been blessed with children, nor am i blessed with a kindered mate.

Well when you do, get back to me. Perspective is everything. I'm not saying I advocate violence, but someone picks on one of my kids, they know what to do. This same Jesus who turned his cheek, also told his apostles to take swords with them.

mattlad22
Mar 22nd 2011, 10:49 PM
Well when you do, get back to me. Perspective is everything. I'm not saying I advocate violence, but someone picks on one of my kids, they know what to do. This same Jesus who turned his cheek, also told his apostles to take swords with them.

Ah yes, and they wore the armor of God.

I said it wasnt easy.
Doesnt mean it gives us an excuse to go againts Him on the matter.

Also note its the same Jesus that disappeared when they tried to kill Him before the Word was to be fulfilled.
The same Jesus that gave em a lil trouble for lashing out with the sword and cutting the ear.
The same Jesus that did nothing to the men who beat,lashed,put objects through His body, stabbed him, spit on Him, called Him blashpemous things.

That Jesus right?

Athanasius
Mar 22nd 2011, 10:56 PM
Whatever happened to all this?:

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Paul said, when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; Paul said, If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY, says the Lord. BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Jesus said, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way. Think of someone who has hurt you, or mistreated you, or cursed you. Pray for them now, in love.

I ask the Father in his great glory to give you the power to be strong inwardly through his Spirit. I pray that Christ will live in your hearts by faith and that your life will be strong in love and be built on love.

Why are we celebrating an act of contradiction to the way God asked us to live through His Son?

Is Casey a Christian? Tell you what, I'll pray for both of these boys, but guess what? Someone needed to do something about twiggy, and I'm glad Casey stepped up to the task. By the way, Jesus isn't a pacifist, don't construe him as such.

mattlad22
Mar 22nd 2011, 11:04 PM
Is Casey a Christian? Tell you what, I'll pray for both of these boys, but guess what? Someone needed to do something about twiggy, and I'm glad Casey stepped up to the task. By the way, Jesus isn't a pacifist, don't construe him as such.

No idea what your talking about.

You've qouted what i said, which the whole thing except "what ever happened to this" and the last sentence which was a question i asked, is scripture, the Word of God.
Jesus wasnt a pacifist, but yet did He not just ask you to be peaceful and show you what to do in different cases of someone coming againts you?
So if you dont do that and you teach the opposite of it and live the opposite of it. what say you?

Athanasius
Mar 22nd 2011, 11:13 PM
No idea what your talking about.

What does Paul's admonition to Christians have to do with Casey's action? Is Casey a (doormat) Christian?


You've qouted what i said, which the whole thing except "what ever happened to this" and the last sentence which was a question i asked, is scripture, the Word of God.

For that matter, what specifically did Paul say that you believe contradicts our supporting Casey? I don't think Casey thought before he acted, but I support him for sticking up for himself. I would have done the same. Remember what SEEKING said above about swords? Re-read it, you seem to have ignored it. (As an aside, 'turn the other cheek' was a demand for equality, not an act of non-violence.)


Jesus wasnt a pacifist, but yet did He not just ask you to be peaceful and show you what to do in different cases of someone coming againts you?

It seems to me that Casey created peace by acting against his oppressor. So again, how does our support contradict Jesus' teaching?


So if you dont do that and you teach the opposite of it and live the opposite of it. what say you?

I say you are creating caricatures and straw men.

Ayala
Mar 22nd 2011, 11:22 PM
Just for the sake of adding a bit more context for everyone...the kid suffered bullying pretty much all his life and never did anything about it (a common reason a kid is repeatedly targeted)...this included having his eyes duct-taped followed by being duct-taped to a pole. This video was a mere show of how, after years of torment and abuse (and also contemplation of suicide), he defended himself. He even said himself that he didn't want to fight, he just wanted it to end and saw no other way out of it. Once the threat was neutralized, he didn't pummel the kid on the ground...he didn't try to go after any of the friends...he walked away.

Vhayes
Mar 22nd 2011, 11:23 PM
Think Columbine.

mattlad22
Mar 22nd 2011, 11:26 PM
Casey acted violent againts someone who was being violent againts him.
What did Casey do wrong? Casey stumbled by using violence as a means to get equality, not love.

It has everything to do with what Paul said, which God told Him.
It has every characteristic of what not to do according to the Word of God.

I didnt ignore it, in fact i even replied to it, you ignored that or didnt see it.

It seems that Casey did the exact same thing to the other person on a one time basis in which we are still asked to not do by the Lord. He didnt create peace he showed that if someone oppresses you long enough you'll give in even if its once.
He did what we shouldnt do and im not saying hes evil for it, im saying its evil for celebrating it, thats not who we are supposed to be in the body of Christ, and when we see that someone stumbles were supposed to help them back up and show them why it was wrong.
Were not supposed to says "its alright, he oppressed my son for several years, hurt him alot he had it coming everyone else will be safe now" or " yeah your right that guy should have never picked on a physically stronger individual, he got what he deserves, everything alright now"

You want to say and agree to that and chastise me for not wanting to do that and wanting you and others to show me that when i do something God doesnt ask me to do, that i should fix that and keep trying to fix that.
What am i to do.
I'm taking Gods word on it.

I'd rather have a foundation of straw from the Lord and use that for my living than a big steel house full of nothing.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:03 AM
I didnt ignore it, in fact i even replied to it, you ignored that or didnt see it.

If you are referring to the "sword and the whole armor of God" comment, you have got to be kidding me. Jesus told them to take real, made for killing people swords and that has NOTHING to do with the "whole armor of God" admonition Paul made. To even try and equate the sword Jesus spoke of and the sword Paul spoke of is a little more than a stretch, you can't even get there from here.

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:06 AM
Casey acted violent againts someone who was being violent againts him.
What did Casey do wrong? Casey stumbled by using violence as a means to get equality, not love.

It has everything to do with what Paul said, which God told Him.
It has every characteristic of what not to do according to the Word of God.

I didnt ignore it, in fact i even replied to it, you ignored that or didnt see it.

It seems that Casey did the exact same thing to the other person on a one time basis in which we are still asked to not do by the Lord. He didnt create peace he showed that if someone oppresses you long enough you'll give in even if its once.
He did what we shouldnt do and im not saying hes evil for it, im saying its evil for celebrating it, thats not who we are supposed to be in the body of Christ, and when we see that someone stumbles were supposed to help them back up and show them why it was wrong.
Were not supposed to says "its alright, he oppressed my son for several years, hurt him alot he had it coming everyone else will be safe now" or " yeah your right that guy should have never picked on a physically stronger individual, he got what he deserves, everything alright now"

You want to say and agree to that and chastise me for not wanting to do that and wanting you and others to show me that when i do something God doesnt ask me to do, that i should fix that and keep trying to fix that.
What am i to do.
I'm taking Gods word on it.

I'd rather have a foundation of straw from the Lord and use that for my living than a big steel house full of nothing.

Where did God say, "don't defend yourself or others"? We're taking about the same God, right? The one of the Old Testament? The one of Revelation? The one who cleansed the temple?

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:14 AM
If you are referring to the "sword and the whole armor of God" comment, you have got to be kidding me. Jesus told them to take real, made for killing people swords and that has NOTHING to do with the "whole armor of God" admonition Paul made. To even try and equate the sword Jesus spoke of and the sword Paul spoke of is a little more than a stretch, you can't even get there from here.

Why did Jesus ask them to take swords? What did they do with thier swords? When they did use a sword what did Jesus say and do?

What happens when they use His sword?

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:15 AM
Where did God say, "don't defend yourself or others"? We're taking about the same God, right? The one of the Old Testament? The one of Revelation? The one who cleansed the temple?

He didnt say dont defend yourself, He explained exactly how to defend yourself in the post of His word.
Dont believe me read it again. He describes exactly what to do and why you do it.

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:19 AM
He didnt say dont defend yourself, He explained exactly how to defend yourself in the post of His word.
Dont believe me read it again. He describes exactly what to do and why you do it.

Where? Give me your references.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:22 AM
Where? Give me your references.

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Paul said, when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; Paul said, If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY, says the Lord. BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Jesus said, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way. Think of someone who has hurt you, or mistreated you, or cursed you. Pray for them now, in love.

I ask the Father in his great glory to give you the power to be strong inwardly through his Spirit. I pray that Christ will live in your hearts by faith and that your life will be strong in love and be built on love

Diggindeeper
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:34 AM
As for your first question. No, I havent been blessed with children, nor am i blessed with a kindered mate.

Mattlad, since you have no children, this pretty much disqualifies you as an 'expert opinion.' That's one thing wrong today. Students are not allowed to defend themselves. I am amazed at how often others will just stand and watch a bully beat up on another kid. It happens all the time on school buses, in schools, on the playgrounds. That is, indeed, why Columbine happened.

Are you reading ANY of these replies here?

Anyway, I don't think your opinion matters much. Offer your opinions later in life, after you are married and have children of your own.

Jeanne D
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:40 AM
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Paul said, when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; Paul said, If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY, says the Lord. BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Jesus said, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way. Think of someone who has hurt you, or mistreated you, or cursed you. Pray for them now, in love.

I ask the Father in his great glory to give you the power to be strong inwardly through his Spirit. I pray that Christ will live in your hearts by faith and that your life will be strong in love and be built on love

I agree with this however what would a high school girl do if some boy tried to rape her? Would she be wrong for fighting back and trying to defend herself? Would the Lord expect her to just let some boy do that to her?

I think fighting should be a last resort but God gives us the responsibility of protecting our children, if we don't, we are falling short of the job God has called us to do.

Jeanne

Kingsdaughter
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:42 AM
Mattlad22,

Seeing is you don't have children, let me ask you this, if someone was beating up your wife or your mom, or sister, what would you say to them, if it happened right in front of you,what would you do?

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:44 AM
So let me get this straight...

Suppose you are now married and have kids. You come home and someone is in the process of hurting your wife and kids. You get down on your knees and pray?

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:46 AM
Mattlad22,

Seeing is you don't have children, let me ask you this, if someone was beating up your wife or your mom, or sister, what would you say to them, if it happened right in front of you,what would you do?

"Honey, I know him beating you like a ragdoll hurts, but all that screaming is not going to accomplish anything. Pray for him! If he kills you, just know that I will be over here praying for the both of you..."

:o

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:49 AM
Mattlad, since you have no children, this pretty much disqualifies you as an 'expert opinion.' That's one thing wrong today. Students are not allowed to defend themselves. I am amazed at how often others will just stand and watch a bully beat up on another kid. It happens all the time on school buses, in schools, on the playgrounds. That is, indeed, why Columbine happened.

Are you reading ANY of these replies here?

Anyway, I don't think your opinion matters much. Offer your opinions later in life, after you are married and have children of your own.

Wow, wouldnt expect someone to say that around here.

You know the answer to that question.

I never said my opinion mattered much, I said His does. I said it was wrong to justify doing something wrong with a wrong to make a right.

Some other parts of your "feelings" will be answered in other parts for other post where people directly addressed the matter of questioning what i would do.
okay 8)

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:58 AM
I agree with this however what would a high school girl do if some boy tried to rape her? Would she be wrong for fighting back and trying to defend herself? Would the Lord expect her to just let some boy do that to her?

I think fighting should be a last resort but God gives us the responsibility of protecting our children, if we don't, we are falling short of the job God has called us to do.

Jeanne

She would defend herself.
If shes successful she probably thank God, for getting out of it.
If she isnt she could thank God shes still alive and together work out the problems that occur afterwards.
If she dies. Shes dead, what do you want me to say?
If i found out after, i would pray for everyone involved, family, freinds, the commiter to change, id pray for his family and his friends and id pray for everyone else.
Other than that not much i could do about it, unless i was there and it is my hope in Him that i would either stop it if i was or have someone who can, and if worse come to worse, take a lashing, a few shots or a few stabbings while she got away.
Thats what i would hope for.
This is all hypothetical because i havent and God willing i wont experience that.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:02 AM
Mattlad22,

Seeing is you don't have children, let me ask you this, if someone was beating up your wife or your mom, or sister, what would you say to them, if it happened right in front of you,what would you do?

Try to stop them. of course.
I pray now and everyday that should something happen like that, that i would have the ability to do what He ask's me to do in that time and afterwords.
Carnal answer? I'd probably kill him if he was in my house hurting my family, does that mean thats what God would want me to do. no. Is that what i pray for everyday to be kept from? yes.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:02 AM
Firefighter i was going to address what you first asked but I'm not going to now after the second post.

Grow up.

I dont want to make another post so ill do it here.

you say he defended himself and thats ok, but then im led to believe he did more than just defend himself, sounded like he flat out beat him up.
thats what you guys were celebrating, thats what i pointed out.

Jeanne D
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:05 AM
She would defend herself.
If shes successful she probably thank God, for getting out of it.
If she isnt she could thank God shes still alive and together work out the problems that occur afterwards.
If she dies. Shes dead, what do you want me to say?
If i found out after, i would pray for everyone involved, family, freinds, the commiter to change, id pray for his family and his friends and id pray for everyone else.
Other than that not much i could do about it, unless i was there and it is my hope in Him that i would either stop it if i was or have someone who can, and if worse come to worse, take a lashing, a few shots or a few stabbings while she got away.
Thats what i would hope for.
This is all hypothetical because i havent and God willing i wont experience that.

I agree with this, I'm not trying to pick on you, it just seems as if you're against a person defending themselves.

I think there are circumstances where we have no choice.

Thanks for responding to my post.

BTW I don't think people on here realize you're a female.

Jeanne :)

Ayala
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:06 AM
She would defend herself.
If shes successful she probably thank God, for getting out of it.
If she isnt she could thank God shes still alive and together work out the problems that occur afterwards.
If she dies. Shes dead, what do you want me to say?
If i found out after, i would pray for everyone involved, family, freinds, the commiter to change, id pray for his family and his friends and id pray for everyone else.
Other than that not much i could do about it, unless i was there and it is my hope in Him that i would either stop it if i was or have someone who can, and if worse come to worse, take a lashing, a few shots or a few stabbings while she got away.
Thats what i would hope for.
This is all hypothetical because i havent and God willing i wont experience that.

She would defend herself...Is she in the wrong to kick, punch, and struggle her way out of that?

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:09 AM
She would defend herself...Is she in the wrong to kick, punch, and struggle her way out of that?

Depends, does she kick,punch and struggle while trying to defend herself or does she continue on afterwards?

Btw for the post above, im not a female...so wherever you got that info from let me know so i can change it, it doesnt really matter...to me anyways, but proper information should be in order.

Ayala
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:10 AM
Depends, does she kick,punch and struggle while trying to defend herself or does she continue on afterwards?

She neutralizes her assailant and leaves.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:12 AM
I personally dont see anything wrong with that...does she have anger towards her assailant afterwords or does she go to God?

-SEEKING-
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:12 AM
Depends, does she kick,punch and struggle while trying to defend herself or does she continue on afterwards?

Btw for the post above, im not a female...so wherever you got that info from let me know so i can change it, it doesnt really matter...to me anyways, but proper information should be in order.

I think here is the big difference in our viewpoints. I'm not sure if you've seen the video. I have. The smaller boy was punching the big boy while onlookers were laughing, and recording, this incident. He kept taunting the big boy while punching him. The big boy finally had enough, he picked him up, dropped him on the floor, and walked away. THAT'S IT. He defended himself, and left. He didn't keep going after the bully. Does this affect your opinion in any way? Just wanted to make sure you knew the whole scenario.

Ayala
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:14 AM
I personally dont see anything wrong with that...does she have anger towards her assailant afterwords or does she go to God?

That is no different than the kid in the video. He is struck multiple times and then finally fights back. Once the bully is incapacitated, the kid leaves.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:16 AM
I think here is the big difference in our viewpoints. I'm not sure if you've seen the video. I have. The smaller boy was punching the big boy while onlookers were laughing, and recording, this incident. He kept taunting the big boy while punching him. The big boy finally had enough, he picked him up, dropped him on the floor, and walked away. THAT'S IT. He defended himself, and left. He didn't keep going after the bully. Does this affect your opinion in any way? Just wanted to make sure you knew the whole scenario.

No i was addressing something else i thought people were reffering and celebrating, i beleive it was a lengthy post, im going to look through again.

In that case it comes down to one thing, what was in the big guys heart afterwords? Resent, hate, love, peace, forgiveness.

-SEEKING-
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:17 AM
In that case it comes down to one thing, what was in the big guys heart afterwords? Resent, hate, love, peace, forgiveness.

Well, only God can know that for sure. But if you watch the video, I think you get a pretty good idea. He just wanted it to stop. And it did.

Jeanne D
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:18 AM
Depends, does she kick,punch and struggle while trying to defend herself or does she continue on afterwards?

Btw for the post above, im not a female...so wherever you got that info from let me know so i can change it, it doesnt really matter...to me anyways, but proper information should be in order.

Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry. You have a name that is similar to someone who has posted in the womens forum, not that your name is feminine.
So sorry!

Jeanne :blush: :eek:

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:19 AM
So yeah, the fight i was reffering to was on the first page of this thread.

theres 2 fights mentioned in detail in this thread the first and a second.
I'm talking about the second.

Ayala
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:20 AM
Well I don't believe anyone is celebrating the violence itself...at least no one on this board. Simply him defending himself after years of abuse. There's videos of his interview on the web. Casey Heynes. I watched it and he doesn't seem very bitter...just a kid who wants to live life without constant abuse and torment.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:20 AM
you say he defended himself and thats ok, but then im led to believe he did more than just defend himself, sounded like he flat out beat him up.
thats what you guys were celebrating, thats what i pointed out.

Soooooo... you haven't even seen the video either!?!?! Before making judgments, maybe you should educate yourself on what we are talking about.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:22 AM
Well, only God can know that for sure. But if you watch the video, I think you get a pretty good idea. He just wanted it to stop. And it did.

Yeah that fight isnt the one im talking about.
Such a case is impossible to really talk about in the manner i was, and saying that we shouldnt celebrate that first fight, we dont know the outcome, its between the kid and God or people he openly talks to.

The second fight, the one i was reffering to does however go into detail and i thought people were celebrating what happened in that situation.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:25 AM
Soooooo... you haven't even seen the video either!?!?! Before making judgments, maybe you should educate yourself on what we are talking about.

You should stop talking firefighter.
This is one of those times when "your words should be few" okay?

You could apply the same to yourself. My above post shows exactly what i was talking about.
Please be patient.
Theres other ways to deal with a situation that "disturbs you" SEEKING seemed to nail it, perhaps you could follow him/her in method.
I hope you do.
Is it really wrong that didnt watch a violent video? that i took one violent story mentioned and spoke about that?
I'm not trying to pick on anyone, can you take a symbolic hug, read my above post and talk about that or let it be?

Oh and Jeanne dont worry about it lol, it doesnt bother me at all, male female were all the same, just different flesh and blood.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:40 AM
Well considering I am the OP, I don't think I will choose to do so. Further, considering this thread is about the Bully getting body slammed, one should only assume that you would be talking about it. I am glad to see you backed off of your position though. And yes, if you are going to talk about what someone should do in a particular situation, it would behoove you to actually know what is going on in said situation.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:44 AM
Well considering I am the OP, I don' think I will choose to do so. Further, considering this thread is about the Bully getting body slammed, one should only assume that you would be talking about it. I am glad to see you backed off of your position though. And yes, if you are going to talk about what someone should do in a particular situation, it would behoove you to actually know what is going on in said situation.

I did know what was going on in said situation and i addressed it.
Then i got scolded for addressing that situation.
Some people even took it further.
Do you think im wrong when i said such situation was a stumble?
The second fight mentioned, which i was addressing, which i asked why people would celebrate that im not backing off of and i wont.
In question to the first fight i also addressed that and many of us have the same "opinion" on it.

In regards to you considering "making your words few" wasnt addressed to this thread or topic of discussion it was addressed to you blantently mocking me in a misunderstanding between which fight i was addressing.
Which has been clarified completely that i was talking about the second fight mentioned and any "celebration" given through that fight.

Ayala
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:47 AM
I don't have technical authority here but might I suggest that all parties take a step back, recognize that we're all brothers in Christ, and let things be for a bit? We accomplish nothing and only damage our fellowship when we tear into each other. There are better ways to utilize our energy.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:50 AM
In regards to you considering "making your words few" wasnt addressed to this thread or topic of discussion it was addressed to you blantently mocking me in a misunderstanding between which fight i was addressing.
Which has been clarified completely that i was talking about the second fight mentioned and any "celebration" given through that fight.

I call. Please show me a post that celebrated the second fight mentioned.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:52 AM
I don't have technical authority here but might I suggest that all parties take a step back, recognize that we're all brothers in Christ, and let things be for a bit? We accomplish nothing and only damage our fellowship when we tear into each other. There are better ways to utilize our energy.

I'm ok, if everyone else is, im not angry, i thought it was rude the way some were addressing the matter which in turn was a misunderstanding of what fight i was talking about, hence the question i asked in the first place from the discussion.
So if everyone else is ok that may be steamed ext and that everythings clarified, do we all agree the discussions can go onwards?

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:55 AM
Not mad either. :D

It is obvious that both of us are into passionate debate. ;)

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:57 AM
I call. Please show me a post that celebrated the second fight mentioned.

Your call is a bluff because ive already addressed that i thought people were "celebrating" the fight i mentioned.
And someone was.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:57 AM
Not mad either. :D

It is obvious that both of us are into passionate debate. ;)

Ah thank you, someone who finally understands me.........sometimes 8)

Kingsdaughter
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:12 AM
Hmm...everyone was responding to the OP.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:15 AM
Your call is a bluff because ive already addressed that i thought people were "celebrating" the fight i mentioned.
And someone was.

Then show me the post.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:16 AM
Hmm...everyone was responding to the OP.

No, a few people werent.
I'm not going to point fingers, the person that wasnt will either post and we could talk about the people that werent or they wont.
Or other things could happen, but i feel very convicted not to single out for a reason.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:22 AM
Ah thank you, someone who finally understands me.........sometimes 8)

RabbiKnife is a DEAR friend of mine, but if you ever see us on opposing sides of a debate, it is a sight to see. :lol:

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:25 AM
RabbiKnife is a DEAR friend of mine, but if you ever see us on opposing sides of a debate, it is a sight to see. :lol:

Nothin wrong with a little word bru-haha as long as the individuals can be kept from volatile actions.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:27 AM
Nothin wrong with a little word bru-haha as long as the individuals can be kept from volatile actions.

Oh... I didn't say I wasn't going to Hulk Slam you like the kid did in the video. I am sure I am the victim here. :lol:

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 04:19 AM
Oh... I didn't say I wasn't going to Hulk Slam you like the kid did in the video. I am sure I am the victim here. :lol:

If i accidently close off your blood flow to your brain and you go unconcious, am i in trouble?

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:31 AM
Not at all. Although I doubt it will have much of an effect on me. :D

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:39 PM
If i accidently close off your blood flow to your brain and you go unconcious, am i in trouble?

No. His brain is used to not functioning.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:43 PM
Whatever happened to all this?:

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Paul said, when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; Paul said, If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY, says the Lord. BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Jesus said, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way. Think of someone who has hurt you, or mistreated you, or cursed you. Pray for them now, in love.

I ask the Father in his great glory to give you the power to be strong inwardly through his Spirit. I pray that Christ will live in your hearts by faith and that your life will be strong in love and be built on love.

Why are we celebrating an act of contradiction to the way God asked us to live through His Son?

It's unfortunate that it took to page 2 before finally seeing a Christ-like point of view.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:47 PM
If you are referring to the "sword and the whole armor of God" comment, you have got to be kidding me. Jesus told them to take real, made for killing people swords and that has NOTHING to do with the "whole armor of God" admonition Paul made. To even try and equate the sword Jesus spoke of and the sword Paul spoke of is a little more than a stretch, you can't even get there from here.

In the only example we have in scripture where a disciple of Jesus Christ tried to use his sword for violence against another person, what was Jesus' response?

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:49 PM
Where did God say, "don't defend yourself or others"? We're taking about the same God, right? The one of the Old Testament? The one of Revelation? The one who cleansed the temple?

Was Casey "cleansing a temple"? Are you suggesting that what Casey did is in like manner to what Jesus did at the temple? Is this the lengths you are willing to go to in order to argue your view?

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:49 PM
"Glad you obeyed me and brought a sword, Peter. Now put it up. Now is not the time for fighting, I have to go die. Save your sword for later, when you'll need it."

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:50 PM
There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says Christians are to stand around and be punched on by bullies.

Nothing.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:50 PM
He tried to stop Jesus from being taken from something that had to be done. That has nothing to do with defending oneself.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:51 PM
Mattlad, since you have no children, this pretty much disqualifies you as an 'expert opinion.' That's one thing wrong today. Students are not allowed to defend themselves. I am amazed at how often others will just stand and watch a bully beat up on another kid. It happens all the time on school buses, in schools, on the playgrounds. That is, indeed, why Columbine happened.

Are you reading ANY of these replies here?

Anyway, I don't think your opinion matters much. Offer your opinions later in life, after you are married and have children of your own.

I have children, and I say the response given you is 100% in the bible. Why try to discredit a person's view just because they do not have children? Is what was posted in the word of God or not?

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:53 PM
No, it is not in the Word.

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:57 PM
Was Casey "cleansing a temple"? Are you suggesting that what Casey did is in like manner to what Jesus did at the temple? Is this the lengths you are willing to go to in order to argue your view?

I'm making a very simple point: God isn't a pacifist (you know, the God of the Old Testament; the God of the New Testament; the same God who cleansed the Temple, and who is described in Revelation). There is also nothing in the Sermon on the Mount that directs Christians to refrain from defending themselves.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:59 PM
So let me get this straight...

Suppose you are now married and have kids. You come home and someone is in the process of hurting your wife and kids. You get down on your knees and pray?

Is this example in any way similar to a person being laughed at, mocked, even slapped/punched? You folks are reaching for every silly argument in the book to try and defend your position.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:01 PM
"Honey, I know him beating you like a ragdoll hurts, but all that screaming is not going to accomplish anything. Pray for him! If he kills you, just know that I will be over here praying for the both of you..."

:o

Stupid example and you know it. It's not even the same scenario. People in this thread are not using any intellectual honesty whatsoever. It's simply a carnal argument to try and prove a carnal viewpoint.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:04 PM
I agree with this, I'm not trying to pick on you, it just seems as if you're against a person defending themselves.

I think there are circumstances where we have no choice.

Thanks for responding to my post.

BTW I don't think people on here realize you're a female.

Jeanne :)

Do you think Casey didn't have a choice? Did that little guy who was acting like an idiot really do some serious damage? Walk away. If walking away isn't possible and someone is seriously trying to do some serious damage . . . do what you need to do to get them to stop. It's called discernment folks.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:07 PM
I think here is the big difference in our viewpoints. I'm not sure if you've seen the video. I have. The smaller boy was punching the big boy while onlookers were laughing, and recording, this incident. He kept taunting the big boy while punching him. The big boy finally had enough, he picked him up, dropped him on the floor, and walked away. THAT'S IT. He defended himself, and left. He didn't keep going after the bully. Does this affect your opinion in any way? Just wanted to make sure you knew the whole scenario.

Is a powerbomb to the cement that could have potentially killed that kid what you call defending yourself? That kid's punch was like a mere pesky mosquito to that big kid. Yes, the little kid was acting like an idiot, and what he was doing was wrong, but that doesn't now justify the bigger kid doing a Stone Cold Steve Austin on him.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:10 PM
That is no different than the kid in the video. He is struck multiple times and then finally fights back. Once the bully is incapacitated, the kid leaves.

Incapacitated? Is that what you call defending yourself? At what point would it have been too far for you? What if the bigger kid would have pulled out a weapon? Too far? What if he would have had a sword with him like some of these other folks in this thread are going on and on about? Is that too much defense of self?

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:11 PM
Soooooo... you haven't even seen the video either!?!?! Before making judgments, maybe you should educate yourself on what we are talking about.

I've seen the video. Your argument is still ridiculous.

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:15 PM
Incapacitated? Is that what you call defending yourself? At what point would it have been too far for you? What if the bigger kid would have pulled out a weapon? Too far? What if he would have had a sword with him like some of these other folks in this thread are going on and on about? Is that too much defense of self?

He didn't, so deal with what Casey did do. He also didn't 'powerbomb' anyone into the cement, because that requires forethought, and experience - something Casey probably doesn't have. Casey also isn't 'Stone Cold Steve Austin', and the bullying went on for years (ask yourself have comfortable kids have to be to film an instance of bullying on schoolgrounds to upload to the internet). Moreover in case you missed it, there were other 'bullies' off camera, and Casey did do the 'walk away' thing for years.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:16 PM
"Glad you obeyed me and brought a sword, Peter. Now put it up. Now is not the time for fighting, I have to go die. Save your sword for later, when you'll need it."

It's unfortunate that you feel qualified to take God's word and add such an absurd interpretation (twist) to it.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:18 PM
He tried to stop Jesus from being taken from something that had to be done. That has nothing to do with defending oneself.

Actually, no. Jesus addressed Peter's action alone, and his rebuke of the action had nothing to do with the timing.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:18 PM
No, it is not in the Word.

Then you need to buy a new bible with all the contents that are supposed to be in there and actually read it.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:22 PM
He didn't, so deal with what Casey did do. He also didn't 'powerbomb' anyone into the cement, because that requires forethought, and experience - something Casey probably doesn't have. Casey also isn't 'Stone Cold Steve Austin', and the bullying went on for years (ask yourself have comfortable kids have to be to film an instance of bullying on schoolgrounds to upload to the internet). Moreover in case you missed it, there were other 'bullies' off camera, and Casey did do the 'walk away' thing for years.

And now we see where a person, whose argument is not biblical and very unChrist-like, will attempt to pick apart every detail of a post in a critical manner in order to try and discredit for some futile attempt at justification.

It also doesn't matter if walking away was done for years. Walking away should be done always if possible. Will we sometimes have occasions where we fall into the flesh and do as Casey did? Sure. Does that make us justified? No, it doesn't.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:28 PM
I finally watched the video and listened to what the kid said IN THE MAIN POST.

The kid admits he finally "snapped" to the reporter and says "he could no longer handle it"

In other words he got angry and retailiated, he didnt defend himself.
He used violence againts violence.

Thats not what God asked of us.

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:30 PM
And now we see where a person, whose argument is not biblical and very unChrist-like, will attempt to pick apart every detail of a post in a critical manner in order to try and discredit for some futile attempt at justification.

Your rhetoric is unjustified. You can't call what Casey did a 'powerbomb' because Casey - as far as we know - doesn't have training. He 'picked up and threw the kid', who luckily came out with a grazed knee and nothing more. Casey isn't a trained MMA fighter. You also shouldn't describe him as 'Stone Cold Steve Austin,' as that immediately conjures up images of WWE and the showmanship that goes on at such events. About Casey bringing out a sword or any other sort of weapon, do you really think that we would support Casey if he went that far? Of course not, but you feel you're justified on top of your slippery slope.

As far as the 'limit' goes, I would say the limit is as much violence as is necessary to stop whatever is going on - and Casey did just that.

If you don't like me calling you out on your rhetoric, well... You're no Cicero, so I feel safe in doing so. If the best you can do is retort that I'm 'un-Christlike', then I won't argue, or at least I'm very 'un-VerticalReality' like.


It also doesn't matter if walking away was done for years. Walking away should be done always if possible.

If it isn't possible, then what? Say you were to come across a homeless man, and he was getting beat up by three teenage boys. Would you tell the man to pray and endure? Or would you try to stop the beating? If it was your kid, then what? See, we're saying it wasn't possible for Casey.


Will we sometimes have occasions where we fall into the flesh and do as Casey did? Sure. Does that make us justified? No, it doesn't.

You've yet to show how Casey was unjustified, or how we are unjustified.

Kingsdaughter
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:40 PM
VR and mattlad,

What you guys are saying is the same thing as telling a kid who is suffering from bacterial meningitis, "don't go to see a doctor, we'll just pray and trust God for healing"
The kid is in desperate need of medical attention and yet instead of taking him to the emergency room, you take him to the church and have the elders anoint his head. Meanwhile the boy gets sicker and sicker.

FINALLY you take him to the doctor, were you in the flesh by taking him to the emergency room, because you lack the faith to trust God for healing ? You see where I'm headed here?

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:05 PM
It's unfortunate that you feel qualified to take God's word and add such an absurd interpretation (twist) to it.

It is a perfectly reasonable interpretation in the context in which the event occurred. You just don't like it because it goes against your pacifist dogma.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:07 PM
Your rhetoric is unjustified. You can't call what Casey did a 'powerbomb' because Casey - as far as we know - doesn't have training.

And again, this is just nit-picky silliness that has nothing to do with the subject. Such technicalities are just another attempt at deflecting the subject matter.


As far as the 'limit' goes, I would say the limit is as much violence as is necessary to stop whatever is going on - and Casey did just that.

And if the boy's neck would have been snapped from the impact of the concrete, would your opinion still be the same? If the kid had died, would the action still be justified? Man, your argument here is just not at all biblical. Not even close.


If you don't like me calling you out on your rhetoric, well... You're no Cicero, so I feel safe in doing so. If the best you can do is retort that I'm 'un-Christlike', then I won't argue, or at least I'm very 'un-VerticalReality' like.

What you're doing is "calling out" technicalities, and honestly, it's just sophomoric.


If it isn't possible, then what? Say you were to come across a homeless man, and he was getting beat up by three teenage boys. Would you tell the man to pray and endure? Or would you try to stop the beating? If it was your kid, then what? See, we're saying it wasn't possible for Casey.

How many hypotheticals are your going to conjure in order to find one that fits your unbiblical viewpoint? We are discussing the situation with Casey, and no, his actions were not justified in any way, shape or form.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:08 PM
It is a perfectly reasonable interpretation in the context in which the event occurred. You just don't like it because it goes against your pacifist dogma.

No, I don't like it because it is a terrible attempt at justification, and it's a very dishonest intepretation of the passage.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:09 PM
VR and mattlad,

What you guys are saying is the same thing as telling a kid who is suffering from bacterial meningitis, "don't go to see a doctor, we'll just pray and trust God for healing"
The kid is in desperate need of medical attention and yet instead of taking him to the emergency room, you take him to the church and have the elders anoint his head. Meanwhile the boy gets sicker and sicker.

FINALLY you take him to the doctor, were you in the flesh by taking him to the emergency room, because you lack the faith to trust God for healing ? You see where I'm headed here?

I'm amazed you have drawn this conclusion.

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:11 PM
Says you, and we disagree, and you have no Scripture to support you other than the classic pacifist view that takes the SOM out of context and tries to make it a blanket "law."

But, you aren't even a good pacifist, because you would (apparently) defend someone in some circumstances, you just want to pick and choose for others what those circumstances should be for them.

If the kid's neck had been broken and the kid died, then the world would have learned a lesson that being a bully is a not so wise thing.

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:11 PM
No, I don't like it because it is a terrible attempt at justification, and it's a very dishonest intepretation of the passage.

Not in the slightest.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:14 PM
Says you, and we disagree, and you have no Scripture to support you other than the classic pacifist view that takes the SOM out of context and tries to make it a blanket "law."

But, you aren't even a good pacifist, because you would (apparently) defend someone in some circumstances, you just want to pick and choose for others what those circumstances should be for them.

If the kid's neck had been broken and the kid died, then the world would have learned a lesson that being a bully is a not so wise thing.

Your opinion is just ungodly and doesn't reflect the love of our Lord. If the kid's neck would have been broken then it's nothing more to you than a "lesson learned" against bullying. Just shameful. No wonder unbelievers today are disgusted by some of these "Christian" attitudes.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:22 PM
It's ironic that people mention Jesus cleansing the temple in this thread as justification for violence against others when it is the hearts on display in this thread that caused Jesus to feel it necessary to cleanse the temple in the first place.

I believe Jesus would do some serious temple cleansing in this forum just going by these responses.

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:24 PM
And again, this is just nit-picky silliness that has nothing to do with the subject. Such technicalities are just another attempt at deflecting the subject matter.

Don't be so dense; you brought it up, you obviously thought it had something to do 'with the subject'. Now that I've pointed out you can't call it a powerbomb, it's "nit-picky silliness"? Laughable.


And if the boy's neck would have been snapped from the impact of the concrete, would your opinion still be the same? If the kid had died, would the action still be justified? Man, your argument here is just not at all biblical. Not even close.

'What if...' 'What if...' What if...'

What if Casey went home and hung himself? What if the bullying didn't stop and Casey was killed? What if, what if...

What if's are useless, so deal with what did happen and stop dealing in hypotheticals about Casey that didn't happen - they are immaterial.


What you're doing is "calling out" technicalities, and honestly, it's just sophomoric.

I'm not calling out anything, I'm pointing out that your argument is wrong.


How many hypotheticals are your going to conjure in order to find one that fits your unbiblical viewpoint? We are discussing the situation with Casey, and no, his actions were not justified in any way, shape or form.

This isn't a question about Casey, it's a question about if your morals translate to all other areas of your life, so answer the question. You said walking away should always be done 'if possible', what if it isn't possible, then what? Would you defend the homeless man, or your son?

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:30 PM
Don't be so dense; you brought it up, you obviously thought it had something to do 'with the subject'. Now that I've pointed out you can't call it a powerbomb, it's "nit-picky silliness"? Laughable.

I didn't bring up the term "powerbomb" as if I were sitting here with a wrestling terminology dictionary worried about its correct application. The fact that you are attempting to point this technicality out is nothing short of weak-minded. Who cares what the correct terminology is for what Casey actually did? He picked the kid up and violently slammed him to the pavement. There, will that pacify this silly argument of yours?


'What if...' 'What if...' What if...'

What if Casey went home and hung himself? What if the bullying didn't stop and Casey was killed? What if, what if...

What if's are useless, so deal with what did happen and stop dealing in hypotheticals about Casey that didn't happen - they are immaterial.

The what if isn't baseless when it could have realistically happened. Casey came within inches of slamming that kid directly on top of his head which in turn would have more than likely snapped his neck like a twig. It was excessive violence that was admittedly a manifestation of rage. This is not biblical no matter which way you are attempting to slice it.


I'm not calling out anything, I'm pointing out that your argument is wrong.

The bible is not wrong, and Casey's reaction was not at all in line with scripture. What you call it doesn't concern me one bit because it's blatantly obvious that you are not responding with God's heart on the matter.


This isn't a question about Casey, it's a question about if your morals translate to all other areas of your life, so answer the question. You said walking away should always be done 'if possible', what if it isn't possible, then what? Would you defend the homeless man, or your son?

I've already answered this question. Go back and read it again.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:37 PM
Regardless, I've said what needed to be said, and I'm glad mattlad had the heart to stand on the word of God in this as well.

I'm bowing out of this entire carnal discussion.

BrianW
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:39 PM
Why does this thread make me think of Alvin York?

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:41 PM
To bow would imply a showing of respect for the people you engaged with. As this is something yet to be demonstrated, no reason to show it on your way out.

I have no respect for carnal and ungodly viewpoints, so in that I will agree with you. They are inspired of the devil.

Kingsdaughter
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:44 PM
It's ironic that people mention Jesus cleansing the temple in this thread as justification for violence against others when it is the hearts on display in this thread that caused Jesus to feel it necessary to cleanse the temple in the first place.

I believe Jesus would do some serious temple cleansing in this forum just going by these responses.

Its not ungodly to defend yourself from physical abuse. Just stop already. If your child was getting punched in the face by a bully in front of you VR. You wouldnt think twice about picking up that bully and throwing him to the ground. Gimme a break.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:44 PM
To bow would imply a showing of respect for the people you engaged with. As this is something yet to be demonstrated, no reason to show it on your way out.

I didn't say anything about the viewpoints.

I have been addressing the arguments made. I don't know the people.

However, I'm done justifying myself to you. I feel comfortable that I've shared God's heart on this matter. Therefore, your judgment is of none effect.

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:46 PM
No, the sad thing is that the "religious" mind WOULD stand there and let someone beat the crap out of their kid, praying IN THE NAME OF JESUS the whole time.

The Pharisees had made a pretty good practice of putting their religious rules above the plight of actual humans. Self-delusion and self-gratification are addictive.

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:47 PM
I didn't bring up the term "powerbomb" as if I were sitting here with a wrestling terminology dictionary worried about its correct application. The fact that you are attempting to point this technicality out is nothing short of weak-minded. Who cares what the correct terminology is for what Casey actually did? He picked the kid up and violently slammed him to the pavement.

You're missing the point. Why do most people know what a 'powerbomb' is? Because they watch wrestling. What is wrestling to most people? Grown men throwing each other around a ring; jumping on each other; hitting each other; slamming chairs over each others heads; using submission holds, etc. etc. etc. So when you say 'Casey powerbombed...' Most people will remember not only what a powerbomb is, but everything that came along with it. That's why it's rhetoric; that's why you said he went all 'Stone Cold Steve Austin'. Why do I care what the correct terminology is? Because I don't want you creating a caricature of Casey. He isn't a trained fighter. He isn't a professional wrestler. He didn't execute a pre-planned move. He reacted, and 'violently slamming his bully into the pavement' was the substance of his reaction.


There, will that pacify this silly argument of yours?

You aren't 'pacifying' my argument, you're correcting yours.


The what if isn't baseless when it could have realistically happened.

Okay, realistically...

Casey doesn't fight back, and the video goes viral - "why doesn't the big kid fight back?" Casey is held as an example of non-violence, and becomes a celebrity in Australia. He's then flown over the US where he appears on dozen's of morning / late night talk shows. He's asked to do video's on bullying, is invited to write a book and do a biographical video about his experiences. He goes home, and he meets the Prime Minister of Australia - excellent! Casey is a hero, and 'the rat' is castigated.

Hopefully you get the point: 'realistic' what-if's can be created until the second coming of Christ, but they are still immaterial because they are completely and totally arbitrary.


Casey came within inches of slamming that kid directly on top of his head which in turn would have more than likely snapped his neck like a twig. It was excessive violence that was admittedly a manifestation of rage. This is not biblical no matter which way you are attempting to slice it.

Excessive violence compared to what? How you are gauging what is excessive and what isn't? Did I say I agreed with what Casey did? I'm glad he stood up for himself, and I think he did what was necessary to end the bullying at that point in time (and probably permanently). I wouldn't start telling kids who are bullied to pick up and toss their bullies into the pavement.


The bible is not wrong, and Casey's reaction was not at all in line with scripture. What you call it doesn't concern me one bit because it's blatantly obvious that you are not responding with God's heart on the matter.

You're right, the Bible isn't wrong... You are.


I've already answered this question. Go back and read it again.

No, you haven't answered the question. Here's another one for you:


I agree with this however what would a high school girl do if some boy tried to rape her? Would she be wrong for fighting back and trying to defend herself? Would the Lord expect her to just let some boy do that to her?

I think fighting should be a last resort but God gives us the responsibility of protecting our children, if we don't, we are falling short of the job God has called us to do.

Jeanne

So, girl being raped? Homeless being beaten? Your son on the verge of death? If you expect Casey to live up to your ideal, how do you practice it in these situations?

Vhayes
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:49 PM
Children are given to us as gifts. Rare gems. Ig God handed you a diamond beyond price, would you allow someone to throw it on the floor and stomp on it yet say nothing? How is that good stewardship in any manner?

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:51 PM
Your opinion is just ungodly and doesn't reflect the love of our Lord. If the kid's neck would have been broken then it's nothing more to you than a "lesson learned" against bullying. Just shameful. No wonder unbelievers today are disgusted by some of these "Christian" attitudes.

Demonstrate to me how my opinion is "just ungodly and doesn't reflect the love of the Lord." Sometimes, not always, God uses humans to crush sinners to demonstrate the stupidity of sin.

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:52 PM
Children are given to us as gifts. Rare gems. Ig God handed you a diamond beyond price, would you allow someone to throw it on the floor and stomp on it yet say nothing? How is that good stewardship in any manner?

It supports and strokes a religous spirit.

Vhayes
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:58 PM
I guess I'm confused. How is allowing a child to be habitually beaten and tormented showing him that God loves Him? How is the kid demonstrating that to the bully?

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 03:29 PM
...and moving to Contro in 5...4...3... ;)

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:24 PM
VR and mattlad,

What you guys are saying is the same thing as telling a kid who is suffering from bacterial meningitis, "don't go to see a doctor, we'll just pray and trust God for healing"
The kid is in desperate need of medical attention and yet instead of taking him to the emergency room, you take him to the church and have the elders anoint his head. Meanwhile the boy gets sicker and sicker.

FINALLY you take him to the doctor, were you in the flesh by taking him to the emergency room, because you lack the faith to trust God for healing ? You see where I'm headed here?

No. Thats what YOUR assuming im saying is that.

I cant speak for Vr.

For myself its clear the kid DID NOT defend himself, he let his anger get to him and in retailiation he ATTACKED back.


Defending and attacking is a major difference and depends on the INDIVIDUAL, it just so happens that this child ADMITS that he "snapped" and retailiated out of anger, not out of self defence.

Dont tell me theres not a difference.

Currently catching up on the rest of the post's. so bear with me brothers.

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:29 PM
For myself its clear the kid DID NOT defend himself...

He used enough force to subdue his attacker and then left. What about that isn't in the definition of 'defense'?

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:29 PM
Its not ungodly to defend yourself from physical abuse. Just stop already. If your child was getting punched in the face by a bully in front of you VR. You wouldnt think twice about picking up that bully and throwing him to the ground. Gimme a break.

But what goes through your heart in that case, to defend or to hurt that bully picking on your child.

Kingsdaughter
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:31 PM
No. Thats what YOUR assuming im saying is that.

I cant speak for Vr.

For myself its clear the kid DID NOT defend himself, he let his anger get to him and in retailiation he ATTACKED back.


Defending and attacking is a major difference and depends on the INDIVIDUAL, it just so happens that this child ADMITS that he "snapped" and retailiated out of anger, not out of self defence.

Dont tell me theres not a difference.

Currently catching up on the rest of the post's. so bear with me brothers.

Oh that's right YOU were responding to the second video,my bad.

Kingsdaughter
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:32 PM
But what goes through your heart in that case, to defend or to hurt that bully picking on your child.

The goal is protect my child.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:33 PM
He used enough force to subdue his attacker and then left. What about that isn't in the definition of 'defense'?

No its isnt because he himself claims that, that wasnt his purpose, it jut so happens, thank God, for the bully and the one picked on that the larger kid didnt continue on.

He retailiated, he didnt defend himself, anger got to him, albeit it obviously took alot longer than most of us, but it did get to him.

I'm not saying the child is evil, the act was. If that was your child and you being a parent that teaches your child in the ways of God, would that not be a stumble? would you not then therefore WANT to point and teach your child through the matter?

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:35 PM
The goal is protect my child.

Yes, obviously you want to protect your child thats not the point , mostly everyone is going to want to protect thier child, but what goes through your heart in the process, to defend your child and cause blockage to the harm being done OR take that bully throw him 5 feets as hard as you can so that he/she can feel the pain and know what it feels like? in the process you do "defend" your child but with OTHER intent.

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:37 PM
No its isnt because he himself claims that, that wasnt his purpose, it jut so happens, thank God, for the bully and the one picked on that the larger kid didnt continue on.

He never said his purpose was anything other than to stop the bullying at that particular moment. That's what he did. And by the way, he never went after the second (taller) kid who confronted him. *That* is restraint.


He retailiated, he didnt defend himself, anger got to him, albeit it obviously took alot longer than most of us, but it did get to him.

There's no problem with being angry at injustice, and that's why he was angry.


I'm not saying the child is evil, the act was.

The act was not evil.


If that was your child and you being a parent that teaches your child in the ways of God, would that not be a stumble?

If my child had been bullied for years, no I wouldn't.


would you not then therefore WANT to point and teach your child through the matter?

The only thing I would tell my child is whether or not he overreacted.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:38 PM
Oh that's right YOU were responding to the second video,my bad.

no i was responding to the second fight mentioned in this thread, not the OP's post. I actually had no watched the video and interview, until this morning.

tango
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:42 PM
I wasn't going to chime in on this discussion but what the heck.

Jas 2:14-18 NKJV What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? (15) If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, (16) and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? (17) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (18) But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

If we substitute "naked and destitute of daily food" for "being beaten up by bullies" it puts a different spin on things.

If we have a duty to directly help someone who is naked and hungry rather than simply giving them soothing words and maybe praying for them, don't we also have a similar duty to protect the weak from their oppressors?

To tweak this passage for the context,

Jas 2:14-18 NKJV (tweaked) What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? (15) If a brother or sister is being beaten, (16) and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be safe," but you do not give them the protection which is needed for the body, what does it profit? (17) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (18) But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:43 PM
Athanasius im not sure what to say to you.

I'm sorry you see it that way, i hope you see it His way then.

The child said he "snapped" "he couldnt take it any longer so he retailiated"

Thats clearly a contradiction to the word of God.

I dont care if he had restraint afterwords.

I could shoot someone and not shoot another person, good good on me though for my restraint.

It's a stumble.

Kingsdaughter
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:45 PM
no i was responding to the second fight mentioned in this thread, not the OP's post. I actually had no watched the video and interview, until this morning.

Right the second fight. That's what I meant.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:46 PM
I wasn't going to chime in on this discussion but what the heck.

Jas 2:14-18 NKJV What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? (15) If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, (16) and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? (17) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (18) But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

If we substitute "naked and destitute of daily food" for "being beaten up by bullies" it puts a different spin on things.

If we have a duty to directly help someone who is naked and hungry rather than simply giving them soothing words and maybe praying for them, don't we also have a similar duty to protect the weak from their oppressors?

To tweak this passage for the context,

Jas 2:14-18 NKJV (tweaked) What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? (15) If a brother or sister is being beaten, (16) and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be safe," but you do not give them the protection which is needed for the body, what does it profit? (17) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (18) But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.


But your taking out of context whats being said in our post's saying the child was in the wrong with the bully.

The child admits to attacking, to letting anger get to him and trying/body slamming the other child in the wrong in a retailiation of anger, not in a form of defending.

Thats what im saying.

Its a basis of the individuals intent, and the individual in the video ADMITS his intent.

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:49 PM
Athanasius im not sure what to say to you.

I'm sorry you see it that way, i hope you see it His way then.

If you think violence is never necessary, well, I hope no one ever comes against your family - I'd hate to see their faces when they realize you won't protect them.


The child said he "snapped" "he couldnt take it any longer so he retailiated"

Yes, he defended himself. He was angry because he was being oppressed - that's known as righteous anger. That's not a sin.


Thats clearly a contradiction to the word of God.

Clearly it isn't, or everyone would agree with you against me.


I dont care if he had restraint afterwords.

I could shoot someone and not shoot another person, good good on me though for my restraint.

It's a stumble.

The fact that he showed restraint means that he... didn't want to fight. Get it?


The child admits to attacking, to letting anger get to him and trying/body slamming the other child in the wrong in a retailiation of anger, not in a form of defending.

To defend yourself you have to 'attack' and / or 'retaliate' against your oppressor.

tango
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:51 PM
But your taking out of context whats being said in our post's saying the child was in the wrong with the bully.

The child admits to attacking, to letting anger get to him and trying/body slamming the other child in the wrong in a retailiation of anger, not in a form of defending.

Thats what im saying.

Its a basis of the individuals intent, and the individual in the video ADMITS his intent.

The larger child, from the posts I've seen, admitted "flipping" and retaliating.

Perhaps if he had made a more measured response sooner he wouldn't have felt that way. No need for excessive force or violence, just enough to make it clear to the child attacking him that his actions had consequences.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:58 PM
If you think violence is never necessary, well, I hope no one ever comes against your family - I'd hate to see their faces when they realize you won't protect them.



Yes, he defended himself. He was angry because he was being oppressed - that's known as righteous anger. That's not a sin.



Clearly it isn't, or everyone would agree with you against me.



The fact that he showed restraint means that he... didn't want to fight. Get it?



To defend yourself you have to 'attack' and / or 'retaliate' against your oppressor.

You think i think violence is never necessary because im saying a kid who attacked his attacker out of anger, had the obvious intent of harm in that state which he admits, thank God was restraint, that im wrong because everyone agrees with you who post's.

God agree with me in His word, i dont require you to agree with me, all ive done was point out the wrong and why its wrong, after that i can do nothing, doesnt matter how many believe it or not, or feel that way or do, i did what im asked of.

To defend yourself is to incapacitate your attacker in many various forms, the INTENT of your defence is YOUR definition on an individual basis of your heartfelt desire.
His was to hurt and retailiate, he "snapped"

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:00 PM
The larger child, from the posts I've seen, admitted "flipping" and retaliating.

Perhaps if he had made a more measured response sooner he wouldn't have felt that way. No need for excessive force or violence, just enough to make it clear to the child attacking him that his actions had consequences.

Perhaps theres many outcomes but this was his.

Liquid Tension
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:09 PM
Like I said in an earlier post, if a smaller dog wants to mess with a bigger dog, the smaller better realize the bigger may bite back. I won't even attempt to use Scripture to validate my opinion. To me, the younger kid should be thankful that he didn't get dropped on his head, or at the very least get his kneecap shattered. Casey defended himself......end of story.

Is this a "Christ-like" attitude/view/mindset? No, and I'm not claiming so. Am I comparing humans to animals? No, just using an analogy. Are there people who will not agree with my view on this situation? Yes, but that is not a me problem.

Again, just my opinion.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:15 PM
The entire concept of defending oneself is to immediately stop any aggression and prevent any further aggression with speed, surprise and violence of action. That is what this kid did.

How does that look in real life? Not too pretty. If you throw a punch with serious intent on hurting me, I will break your arm. You will cease aggression AND you will not be able to punch me with that arm again any time soon. Mission Accomplished.

Should we look for fights? Heavens no! But I have seen WAY to many people hurt or killed because they chose to use "minimal force".

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:23 PM
Like I said in an earlier post, if a smaller dog wants to mess with a bigger dog, the smaller better realize the bigger may bite back. I won't even attempt to use Scripture to validate my opinion. To me, the younger kid should be thankful that he didn't get dropped on his head, or at the very least get his kneecap shattered. Casey defended himself......end of story.

Is this a "Christ-like" attitude/view/mindset? No, and I'm not claiming so. Am I comparing humans to animals? No, just using an analogy. Are there people who will not agree with my view on this situation? Yes, but that is not a me problem.

Again, just my opinion.

I'd agree with that then, as a carnal opinion. Most people would probably think its unfortunate the lil bully didnt land on his head.

Liquid Tension
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:25 PM
The entire concept of defending oneself is to immediately stop any aggression and prevent any further aggression with speed, surprise and violence of action. That is what this kid did.

How does that look in real life? Not too pretty. If you throw a punch with serious intent on hurting me, I will break your arm. You will cease aggression AND you will not be able to punch me with that arm again any time soon. Mission Accomplished.

Should we look for fights? Heavens no! But I have seen WAY to many people hurt or killed because they chose to use "minimal force".


Thread killer!!! :thumbsup:

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:28 PM
Thread killer!!! :thumbsup:

Hardly. Just watch in 5...4...3...2...

:lol:

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:29 PM
The entire concept of defending oneself is to immediately stop any aggression and prevent any further aggression with speed, surprise and violence of action. That is what this kid did.

How does that look in real life? Not too pretty. If you throw a punch with serious intent on hurting me, I will break your arm. You will cease aggression AND you will not be able to punch me with that arm again any time soon. Mission Accomplished.

Should we look for fights? Heavens no! But I have seen WAY to many people hurt or killed because they chose to use "minimal force".

I agree with that also, however i stated the child's intent, what was going through him as he did these things, thats where he went wrong.
I have alot of friend who train jui jitsu, i spar with them, they can defend themselves quite easily and incapacitate me.
However "how" the heart is when they do it is a different story.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:33 PM
Where should one's heart be when dislocating someone's elbow? I gotta tell you, the only thing that has ever run through my mind is "Ohhhh... that sounds nasty!"

I do have one problem with the boy's actions. He snapped. You should be calm and calculating as possible, otherwise chances are you will lose.

Kingsdaughter
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:34 PM
Yes, obviously you want to protect your child thats not the point , mostly everyone is going to want to protect thier child, but what goes through your heart in the process, to defend your child and cause blockage to the harm being done OR take that bully throw him 5 feets as hard as you can so that he/she can feel the pain and know what it feels like? in the process you do "defend" your child but with OTHER intent.

oh for goodness sakes matt, my child is getting beat on, and im supposed to stand there and examine whats in my heart? i'll protect my child first and examine my heart later,good enough?

Jeanne D
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:36 PM
oh for goodness sakes matt, my child is getting beat on, and im supposed to stand there and examine whats in my heart? i'll protect my child first and examine my heart later,good enough?

I agree. The most important thing at that moment would be to stop my child from being harmed.

Jeanne

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:36 PM
There is a reason we have that built into us. We protect our children. Look at most of creation (mammals). God created us that way.

tango
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:43 PM
Perhaps theres many outcomes but this was his.

Yep, so perhaps the larger child's mistake was not taking action sooner to teach the smaller one that actions have consequences.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 06:56 PM
Clearly it isn't, or everyone would agree with you against me.

Uhh . . . don't think that the popular path of least resistance that carnal people usually take makes you right. It doesn't.

You have a lot of people in agreement with you because a lot of people are carnal and handle these type situations in a carnal manner. Because they do this they also seek out justification and agreement from others in order to make them feel better about their ungodly viewpoint.

You can pat yourself on the back if you like, but having a lot of agreement with your viewpoint certainly doesn't make your viewpoint of God.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 07:01 PM
So you honestly think that if someone is beating your child to death, God wants you to sit there and do nothing!?!?! What does God expect one to do in such a situation?

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 07:01 PM
Uhh . . . don't think that the popular path of least resistance that carnal people usually take makes you right. It doesn't.

You have a lot of people in agreement with you because a lot of people are carnal and handle these type situations in a carnal manner. Because they do this they also seek out justification and agreement from others in order to make them feel better about their ungodly viewpoint.

You can pat yourself on the back if you like, but having a lot of agreement with your viewpoint certainly doesn't make your viewpoint of God.

I heard BibleForums offers an achievement if you call enough people 'carnal' and 'ungodly'.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 07:04 PM
So you honestly think that if someone is beating your child to death, God wants you to sit there and do nothing!?!?! What does God expect one to do in such a situation?

I have no interest is discussing with you exaggerated circumstances that have nothing to do with the example of the two boys. We aren't discussing whether or not you should stop someone from trying to kill your child.

We are talking about two schoolyard kids that were having a conflict. Why do you people feel it necessary to make wild and unreasonable statements that have absolutely nothing to do with the situation at hand?

Goodness gracious. The kid lashed out in wrath and tried to do some damage. End of story. He wasn't trying to subdue the other kid. He was trying to hurt him. There was nothing righteous or commendable about it.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 07:06 PM
Then I would LOVE to see your uncarnal and godly scriptural support for there being a difference.

Jeanne D
Mar 23rd 2011, 07:17 PM
I don't get it.. how does enabling bad behavior, motivate that person to change??

Jeanne

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 07:23 PM
Then I would LOVE to see your uncarnal and godly scriptural support for there being a difference.

My bible has nearly a couple thousand pages in it largely having to do with love and how to righteously respond to others. Read it.

What part of do not repay evil for evil is so difficult for you all to understand? The bigger kid admitted to responding in an evil manner. Losing control and lashing out in wrath at someone with a strong desire to do some damage to them is evil. Bottom line.

It's amazing that you all are jumping on this "that isn't in scripture" bandwagon (which is false), but you have not one single scripture anywhere where the Lord instructs us to retaliate if someone throws a punch at us. Not one single verse . . .

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 07:36 PM
oh for goodness sakes matt, my child is getting beat on, and im supposed to stand there and examine whats in my heart? i'll protect my child first and examine my heart later,good enough?

You could stand there "examining whats in your heart" and ill defend your child.
If im overcome with anger while im doing it, ill apologize to my Father who told me not to be like that, and ill really make the attempt to not keep that from me, and ill keep it in check that it is my hope im not put in a situation like that.

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 07:47 PM
My bible has nearly a couple thousand pages in it largely having to do with love and how to righteously respond to others. Read it.

What part of do not repay evil for evil is so difficult for you all to understand? The bigger kid admitted to responding in an evil manner. Losing control and lashing out in wrath at someone with a strong desire to do some damage to them is evil. Bottom line.

It's amazing that you all are jumping on this "that isn't in scripture" bandwagon (which is false), but you have not one single scripture anywhere where the Lord instructs us to retaliate if someone throws a punch at us. Not one single verse . . .

Funny. My Bible has a couple hundred pages in it on justice, protecting the innocent, the poor, and the defenseless. Oh, a kid finally having enough of a punk and wiping the concrete with his butt is not repaying evil for evil. It is administering justice in a micro enviornment.

I'll remind Jesus that he sinned by not restraining himself and acting out of fury and anger at the moneychangers.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 07:48 PM
My bible has nearly a couple thousand pages in it largely having to do with love and how to righteously respond to others. Read it.

What part of do not repay evil for evil is so difficult for you all to understand? The bigger kid admitted to responding in an evil manner. Losing control and lashing out in wrath at someone with a strong desire to do some damage to them is evil. Bottom line.

It's amazing that you all are jumping on this "that isn't in scripture" bandwagon (which is false), but you have not one single scripture anywhere where the Lord instructs us to retaliate if someone throws a punch at us. Not one single verse . . .

What do you suppose the disciples were supposed to do with the real, literal swords Jesus told them to get?

Where does your thousand page bible make a distinction between getting beat up and killed at? You made the claim, now back it up.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 08:36 PM
Funny. My Bible has a couple hundred pages in it on justice, protecting the innocent, the poor, and the defenseless. Oh, a kid finally having enough of a punk and wiping the concrete with his butt is not repaying evil for evil. It is administering justice in a micro enviornment.

I'll remind Jesus that he sinned by not restraining himself and acting out of fury and anger at the moneychangers.

1) I don't see one verse of scripture in your response above.

2) You aren't Jesus, and that's not even mentioning the fact that the context of his cleansing the temple has nothing to do with the situation involving these two kids.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 08:38 PM
What do you suppose the disciples were supposed to do with the real, literal swords Jesus told them to get?

Where does your thousand page bible make a distinction between getting beat up and killed at? You made the claim, now back it up.

Are you suggesting they went around using them to hack up those who would dare oppose them? Where would you locate those scriptures at?

In fact, do you have one verse to support the notion that these disciples actually used those swords on other people and weren't rebuked for it?

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 08:41 PM
1) I don't see one verse of scripture in your response above.

2) You aren't Jesus, and that's not even mentioning the fact that the context of his cleansing the temple has nothing to do with the situation involving these two kids.

I didn't know that you required chapter and verse for the concepts of justice, protecting the innocent, the poor, and the defenseless in Holy Writ. You could start with Exodus and Deuternomy, work your way through Proverbs and, and then spend some time in the Gospels.

Your entire flawed premise is that acting in violence out of rage is a sin. I think Jesus would disagree with you.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 08:44 PM
I didn't know that you required chapter and verse for the concepts of justice, protecting the innocent, the poor, and the defenseless in Holy Writ. You could start with Exodus and Deuternomy, work your way through Proverbs and, and then spend some time in the Gospels.

Your entire flawed premise is that acting in violence out of rage is a sin. I think Jesus would disagree with you.

I will definitely require chapter and verse for the context with which you are attempting to use these things in relation to the OP.

And again, we aren't discussing Jesus. You aren't Jesus, and neither are those two boys who were not acting out righteously. Stop trying to twist things as though they were.

ProDeo
Mar 23rd 2011, 08:49 PM
Casey acted violent againts someone who was being violent againts him. What did Casey do wrong? Casey stumbled by using violence as a means to get equality, not love..

The "kid" did where adults failed, bringing justice. When the police uses violence the goal is justice. Justice is a form of love. The love for righteousness.

VerticalReality
Mar 23rd 2011, 08:53 PM
The "kid" did where adults failed, bringing justice. When the police uses violence the goal is justice. Justice is a form of love. The love for righteousness.

When it comes to one on one interactions with our fellow man, renegade vengeance is not our business, and anyone who thinks it is will be sorely mistaken when they are the ones standing before the Lord giving account.

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:02 PM
I'll take that chance before I see an innocent being beaten.

Perhaps God moved in that young man to say "enough is enough" and to thrash the little punk into dust. Worked for Samson. And David. And Jonathan. And Gideon the Wimp. And....

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:10 PM
The "kid" did where adults failed, bringing justice. When the police uses violence the goal is justice. Justice is a form of love. The love for righteousness.

In your theory lets get together n go do some "justice" on murderes, adulterious people, lyers, theifs, blasphemous people, vengeance driven people, the list goes on and on.

We have police because this world is so messed up if we didnt we wouldnt survive.

God loves that though He doesnt want to change any of those things, right.

Can't wait to get into the Kingdom of God and have the opportunity to have righteous violence for myself.

O wait.....There is no violence in the kingdom of God.......wonder why that is.

Do you know why there isnt?

heres the answer but ill ask you for yours also.

Because God hates hate and He alone is the righteous judge of it..not you, not I, Him.
Thats why were called to depend on Him to cast it for us.

But what does God love?
love.
Theres other ways of defending oneself then giving into the exact same hate thats going againts you.

ProDeo
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:31 PM
When it comes to one on one interactions with our fellow man, renegade vengeance is not our business, and anyone who thinks it is will be sorely mistaken when they are the ones standing before the Lord giving account.

The more interesting question for me is if the KID will be held accountable. The KID. It's a kid.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:36 PM
The more interesting question for me is if the KID will be held accountable. The KID. It's a kid.

It is interesting.
I wonder how the children that have picked up a knife and stabbed someone to death will be accountable.

Kind of impossible to know really, the child has an entire life ahead of him, anything can happen, including the Lord.
But say the child died right away, for some hypothetical reason, would he be accountable, does it matter for you me or the next person, no, God's department in that case.

ProDeo
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:42 PM
We have police because this world is so messed up if we didnt we wouldnt survive.

Exactly.

And it ain't pretty, never was and never will be.

So the boy did what adults should have done, protect the child, their job, and they weren't there for him for years. Adult failure. School failure.

Don't blame a kid.

ProDeo
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:47 PM
It is interesting. I wonder how the children that have picked up a knife and stabbed someone to death will be accountable.

You should not widen the parameters of the discussion to uphold your point of view. The boy did not kill anyone. He defended himself and walked away.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:50 PM
O wait.....There is no violence in the kingdom of God.......wonder why that is.

Have you read Revelation?

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:52 PM
Exactly.

And it ain't pretty, never was and never will be.

So the boy did what adults should have done, protect the child, their job, and they weren't there for him for years. Adult failure. School failure.

Don't blame a kid.

I dont blame the kid, i blame our flesh nature, i blame hate, i blame the fact that people support using hate for hate, If the adults never once tried to stop the bully, i blame whatever caused them to do that if the picked on child came to them, i blame the world and the wordly things in it.

The only thing that was wrong was that by sound and visual the kid admits to using hate againts hate, he used hate while he was trying to do right. Were not called to use hate againts hate, God is our vengeance, He delivers it and tells us to be loving, so when people on this discussion form say the kid acted rightfully, i point out as people of God, no he didnt.

Theres lots of blame to go around, how about owning up to yourself when you do something wrong?

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:54 PM
Have you read Revelation?

Yeah, seems to me when we all get together with and like Him, theres no violence.

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:54 PM
Where did he say he used hate to fight hate? Where did the kick say that?

You are assuming an awful lot when you ascribe "hate" to a decision to finally say "enough is enough".

Liquid Tension
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:56 PM
Theres other ways of defending oneself then giving into the exact same hate thats going againts you.


While for the most part I do agree with this, I think that most if not all people can and will only handle/take so much bullying, harrassment, etc. Everyone has a boiling point. Yes, we are told to "turn the other cheek". However, for me personally, there's only so many cheeks I can turn.........4 to be exact. :D

The bible says to forgive 70 x 7, it doesn't say to not defend ourselves 70 x 7. At what point is enough enough. Yes, in a perfect world, let it pass, walk away, don't repay violence with violence...........unfortunatly from the human perspective, this will only go so far. I don't believe that anyone here is saying to retaliate against every bullying, violent, harrassment act we encounter. But again, when does one say enough? In this case, again, I don't blame Casey in any way for defending himself.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 09:59 PM
You should not widen the parameters of the discussion to uphold your point of view. The boy did not kill anyone. He defended himself and walked away.

I wasnt, i actually found it to be interesting, and brought that up as an example of interest.

Then i answered, what you said by presenting the same facts that they would both go through.
Showing in both examples through life and dieing we couldnt possibly know.

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:00 PM
"Turn the other cheek" has absolutely nothing to do with defending oneself.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:13 PM
Where did he say he used hate to fight hate? Where did the kick say that?

You are assuming an awful lot when you ascribe "hate" to a decision to finally say "enough is enough".

No.
the child said himself, "I snapped"
the child said "I could no longer handle it anymore" he lost control ... what is that also called? losing your cool, what is losing your cool, getting angry and frustrated, what is hate made up with in part? anger, frustration on a level, also other things.

Now also what does he do when he losses control? he goes for the other childs head, then grabs him buy the waist, picks him up and slams him into the concrete. He uses hate for hate for a brief moment, thank God, only a moment, he would have surely did even more damage to the other kid than the concussion.

Am i assuming the kid had a concussion now? no, because i can visually witness the bullys reaction after the bodyslam.
Which are symptoms of a concussion.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:16 PM
Better watch it again. That kid does not have a concussion. At best he has a hurt ankle/knee and MAYBE but not likely a hip.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:16 PM
While for the most part I do agree with this, I think that most if not all people can and will only handle/take so much bullying, harrassment, etc. Everyone has a boiling point. Yes, we are told to "turn the other cheek". However, for me personally, there's only so many cheeks I can turn.........4 to be exact. :D

The bible says to forgive 70 x 7, it doesn't say to not defend ourselves 70 x 7. At what point is enough enough. Yes, in a perfect world, let it pass, walk away, don't repay violence with violence...........unfortunatly from the human perspective, this will only go so far. I don't believe that anyone here is saying to retaliate against every bullying, violent, harrassment act we encounter. But again, when does one say enough? In this case, again, I don't blame Casey in any way for defending himself.

I dont know if i would have lasted that long either, most likely not because i was a spaz back in those days.
I dont blame him either.
I pointed out how its not proper before God, simply.
Some didnt like that, not my fault, i simply showed what God thinks we should do as Gods people through Christ.

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:21 PM
No.
the child said himself, "I snapped"
the child said "I could no longer handle it anymore" he lost control ... what is that also called? losing your cool, what is losing your cool, getting angry and frustrated, what is hate made up with in part? anger, frustration on a level, also other things.

Now also what does he do when he losses control? he goes for the other childs head, then grabs him buy the waist, picks him up and slams him into the concrete. He uses hate for hate for a brief moment, thank God, only a moment, he would have surely did even more damage to the other kid than the concussion.

Am i assuming the kid had a concussion now? no, because i can visually witness the bullys reaction after the bodyslam.
Which are symptoms of a concussion.

First, we don't know if the kid is a Christian or not.

If not, then who cares. Non-Christians don't have to act like Christians, so that point is moot.
If he is a Christian, then there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that says that anger is wrong. Righteous anger is excellent. And sometimes, righteous anger unleases suddenly and with great force.

I think we assume an awful lot when we impugn the emotion of "hatred" to every act of self-defense, whether served cold or hot.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:23 PM
Better watch it again. That kid does not have a concussion. At best he has a hurt ankle/knee and MAYBE but not likely a hip.

He definetly is hurt in the lower body and definetly showing disoreintation.
His head hits the ground.
He shows definite signs of being concussed as well as having lower body issues.
Watch his hands, his feet and his movement, its all over the place. even his head/neck movement, of course i cant see his eyes.

RabbiKnife
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:24 PM
Firefighter is both a trained emergency medical first responder but also, more significantly, probably has suffered more concussions than anyone on the board.

The kid is not concussed. He is walking funny because he just wet his pants...

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:25 PM
What signs of concussion do you see?

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:25 PM
First, we don't know if the kid is a Christian or not.

If not, then who cares. Non-Christians don't have to act like Christians, so that point is moot.
If he is a Christian, then there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that says that anger is wrong. Righteous anger is excellent. And sometimes, righteous anger unleases suddenly and with great force.

I think we assume an awful lot when we impugn the emotion of "hatred" to every act of self-defense, whether served cold or hot.

Seems what i put up before from His Word is pretty much saying dont be angry.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:25 PM
Firefighter is both a trained emergency medical first responder but also, more significantly, probably has suffered more concussions than anyone on the board.

I cannot deny either of the above charges... :lol:

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:27 PM
Firefighter is both a trained emergency medical first responder but also, more significantly, probably has suffered more concussions than anyone on the board.

The kid is not concussed. He is walking funny because he just wet his pants...

Hes walking funny because his head is messed up, and parts of his lower body are messed up, not because he pee'd his pants, silly.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:28 PM
I cannot deny either of the above charges... :lol:

Ohhhhhhhh thank you for this. *)

Explains EVERYTHING!!!

lol.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:34 PM
Firefighter is both a trained emergency medical first responder but also, more significantly, probably has suffered more concussions than anyone on the board.

The kid is not concussed. He is walking funny because he just wet his pants...

I been concussed, ive concussed people and ive watched many people getting concussed in front of me.....and im not a firefighter. So really thats mute.

Btw firefighter do you guys in the states get paid for being a firefighter? or some areas you do some you dont?

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:37 PM
He definetly is hurt in the lower body and definetly showing disoreintation.
His head hits the ground.
He shows definite signs of being concussed as well as having lower body issues.
Watch his hands, his feet and his movement, its all over the place. even his head/neck movement, of course i cant see his eyes.

As I mentioned before, he scraped his knee, that's why he's limping. He didn't suffer any other injuries.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:47 PM
As I mentioned before, he scraped his knee, that's why he's limping. He didn't suffer any other injuries.

hes not just limping, look at him hes all over the place like a towel in a dryer.

ok you know what ill go with just limping if it pleases you because it really doesnt matter at this point.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:50 PM
I been concussed, ive concussed people and ive watched many people getting concussed in front of me.....and im not a firefighter. So really thats mute.

The most common symptoms are headache, confusion, and amnesia. I am not real sure the video shows that.



Btw firefighter do you guys in the states get paid for being a firefighter? or some areas you do some you dont?

There are three choices in the states, paid, volunteer, and paid per call. Depending which department I am at, I fall in the latter two.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:53 PM
The most common symptoms are headache, confusion, and amnesia. I am not real sure the video shows that.

There are three choices in the states, paid, volunteer, and paid per call. Depending which department I am at, I fall in the latter two.

Yep.

Kew, didnt know that.
I'm not sure if its the same here in Canada, around here its strictly volunteer, in the big city's (Toronto ext.) it could be paid.

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:56 PM
hes not just limping, look at him hes all over the place like a towel in a dryer.

ok you know what ill go with just limping if it pleases you because it really doesnt matter at this point.

Read the news reports - his only injury was a scrapped knee... and some embarrassment.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:09 PM
Read the news reports - his only injury was a scrapped knee... and some embarrassment.

That doesnt mean much.
You might not agree with me again but concussions have a very large variation,
he could seem quite normal not long afterwords.
But have been concussed.
Could even not feel the affects for a long time.

You want an example i can give you one.?

Continue on,
The visual witness shows hes limping badly, and appears confused/disoriented right afterwards, then he seems to collect his "marbles" a few seconds later and limps "normally" towards the camera.

You ever cut your knee really good and flail around in circles, like a string of spaghetti?

Athanasius
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:17 PM
That doesnt mean much.
You might not agree with me again but concussions have a very large variation,
he could seem quite normal not long afterwords.
But have been concussed.
Could even not feel the affects for a long time.

You want an example i can give you one.?

Continue on,
The visual witness shows hes limping badly, and appears confused/disoriented right afterwards, then he seems to collect his "marbles" a few seconds later and limps "normally" towards the camera.

You ever cut your knee really good and flail around in circles, like a string of spaghetti?

He went to the doctor. The news reported the result. This isn't difficult.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:26 PM
He went to the doctor. The news reported the result. This isn't difficult.

Ok Athanasius.

Did you know that in some sports theres actually doctors and equipment being prescribed to each team specifically for concussion diagnostics because its so difficult?

But its not that difficult. He went and saw a doctor. Problem solved.
I'd honestly be surprised if the doctor he saw even did a fluid evaluation for a concussion.
Not to mention, the child himself probably has no idea about concussions so it makes it even harder for them to evaluate it and seeing the doctor probably didnt occur for awhile afterwards.

Still not difficult?

Vhayes
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:30 PM
Get it back on topic, please.

This is the, "Play nice." and if I have to come back, it won't be nice.

This is the first and only warning.

Cool? Cool.

Thank you!

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:33 PM
Get it back on topic, please.

This is the, "Play nice." and if I have to come back, it won't be nice.

This is the first and only warning.

Cool? Cool.

Thank you!

FLEE!

*hides in the shrubs*

"oh no! i just said where im hiding!!"

*runs off in SOME direction*

"clever minded me, kekeke"

Vhayes
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:40 PM
I said back on topic and play nice.

If you decide to flee, that's all on you. Unless you don't have manners and have not been taught how to play nice. In that case, I'll be happy to show you.

Just let me know.
V

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:40 PM
I'd honestly be surprised if the doctor he saw even did a fluid evaluation for a concussion.

SURELY you are not referring to a LP for a concussion test. :o

Otherwise, the only fluid evaluation to be done is to see if clear fluid is running out of their ears or nose, but I have only ever seen it in skull fracture patients. The last one I saw had a Ford Explorer roll over her head.

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:41 PM
I said back on topic and play nice.

If you decide to flee, that's all on you. Unless you don't have manners and have been taught how to play nice. In that case, I'll be happy to show you.

Just let me know.
V

Sorry, didn't see your posts. Beat me if you will. :D

Vhayes
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:43 PM
Sorry, didn't see your posts. Beat me if you will. :D

You have so many coming to you now that we can just add this to the the, "at some future date" list.

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:44 PM
SURELY you are not referring to a LP for a concussion test. :o

Otherwise, the only fluid evaluation to be done is to see if clear fluid is running out of their ears or nose, but I have only ever seen it in skull fracture patients. The last one I saw had a Ford Explorer roll over her head.

Uhh lol, i hope im not in trouble for responding.

i didnt mean fluid as substance LOL.
But yeah fluid as a substance evaluation um. you know if thats happening....they, um......should prolly get that checked out right away, if possible ><

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:44 PM
You should know that if I happen to Hulk Slam you that you too can be a victim... ;)

Firefighter
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:45 PM
Uhh lol, i hope im not in trouble for responding.

i didnt mean fluid as substance LOL.
But yeah fluid as a substance evaluation um. you know if thats happening....they, um......should prolly get that checked out right away, if possible ><

Now you get a beatin' too!!!

mattlad22
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:50 PM
You should know that if I happen to Hulk Slam you that you too can be a victim... ;)

Feel comfort in knowing you wouldnt be the first Vhaye!
I promise since he already told me to watch myself, or be Hulk-Slammed, so i would probably be before you, i will try everything in my power to put this giant into a sweet slumber in the comfort of my arms while blocking his arteries.

This i do for you! Vhayes.

Come on guys the discussion might be heated, but im not trying to attack anyone and i dont think, i definetly hope im not being attacked. So cant we just play a little longer? ppppppllllllllleeeeeeaaaaaasssssseeeeeee?

(Although i will note in seriousness if i have offended anyone, and you/another moderator has been notified, im sorry and ill stop.)

Firefighter
Mar 24th 2011, 12:01 AM
i will try everything in my power to put this giant...

Giant.. :lol:

Dude, I am like 6' and weigh 170.

Giant... :rofl:

mattlad22
Mar 24th 2011, 12:15 AM
Giant.. :lol:

Dude, I am like 6' and weigh 170.

Giant... :rofl:

Haha it was symbolic! i swear. I'd still have to reach up slightly.

Could be interesting though ^^ we'd have the same weight class, heh.

ProDeo
Mar 24th 2011, 09:16 AM
He definetly is hurt in the lower body and definetly showing disoreintation. His head hits the ground. He shows definite signs of being concussed as well as having lower body issues. Watch his hands, his feet and his movement, its all over the place. even his head/neck movement, of course i cant see his eyes.

Oh..... that poor poor bully :)

mattlad22
Mar 24th 2011, 06:50 PM
Oh..... that poor poor bully :)

Not exactly sure of your intent.

ProDeo
Mar 24th 2011, 08:16 PM
Not exactly sure of your intent.

That you portray the bully as victim, he isn't, the harassed kid is.

mattlad22
Mar 24th 2011, 08:17 PM
That you portray the bully as victim, he isn't, the harassed kid is.

They are both victims.

Firefighter
Mar 25th 2011, 11:58 AM
How is the bully a victim!?!?! :o

ProDeo
Mar 25th 2011, 02:14 PM
How is the bully a victim!?!?! :o

In a way he is because of failed parenthood. But that's another type of discussion :)

Firefighter
Mar 25th 2011, 02:18 PM
I think we SERIOUSLY overuse the word "victim". Further, when we assign "victim" to every idiot on the planet, we do a great disservice to the real victims in the world.

RabbiKnife
Mar 25th 2011, 02:20 PM
I'm a victim..........

Firefighter
Mar 25th 2011, 02:25 PM
I'm a victim..........

Did that big old mean ambulance get away from you? Poor feller... :lol:

Jeanne D
Mar 25th 2011, 03:34 PM
In the school where my husband works, this is the policy:

If a student is hit, kicked, punched, slapped, or hit with an object, the victim has the following options:

1. walk away
2. tell a teacher
3. push the offending student away and tell him/her to stop
4. Try to restrain the student.

Now if the victim, hits back, punches, slaps, kicks, or hits the perpetrator with an object in retaliation,
he or she will be arrested with the offender and both will be punished equally.

Jeanne

RabbiKnife
Mar 25th 2011, 03:35 PM
In the school where my husband works, this is the policy:

If a student is hit, kicked, punched, slapped, or hit with an object, the victim has the following options:

1. walk away
2. tell a teacher
3. push the offending student away and tell him/her to stop
4. Try to restrain the student.

Now if the victim, hits back, punches, slaps, kicks, or hits the perpetrator with an object in retaliation,
he or she will be arrested with the offender and both will be punished equally.

Jeanne

I'm good until number 4. Getting in close physical contact to "restrain" is an invitation to getting hurt. No.4 should say "Beat the snot out of the brat and send him crying home to momma."

Jeanne D
Mar 25th 2011, 03:39 PM
I'm good until number 4. Getting in close physical contact to "restrain" is an invitation to getting hurt. No.4 should say "Beat the snot out of the brat and send him crying home to momma."

Well I don't fully agree with this either.
Pretty hard to restrain someone who may be a lot bigger than you.

Jeanne

tango
Mar 25th 2011, 04:50 PM
In the school where my husband works, this is the policy:

If a student is hit, kicked, punched, slapped, or hit with an object, the victim has the following options:

1. walk away
2. tell a teacher
3. push the offending student away and tell him/her to stop
4. Try to restrain the student.

Now if the victim, hits back, punches, slaps, kicks, or hits the perpetrator with an object in retaliation,
he or she will be arrested with the offender and both will be punished equally.

Jeanne


All well and good in theory. But walking away doesn't help if the offender walks after you. Telling a teacher doesn't work because bullies don't tend to wait for an audience before bullying. Pushing them away doesn't work if they ignore the instruction to stop. Restraint doesn't work because the bully isn't going to be restrained passively.

When I had a bunch of kids hassling me at school over an extended period the thing that stopped it was the day they formed a ring around me and all moved in at once. They were foolish enough to leave a chair within reach, and it didn't take anybody very long to realise that if they got within range of the chair they were going to take it at full force and at head height. Almost instantly it stopped, as the ringleader found himself abandoned and vulnerable.

teddyv
Mar 25th 2011, 06:30 PM
Dealing with bullies who act out in a physical manner is a lot easier to deal with than the other types (which is probably a lot more prevalent than this situation). But that's another topic.

thethirdtuttle
Mar 30th 2011, 11:07 AM
This is probably unsurprising to the vast majority of you, but I happen to agree with Vertical Reality and mattlad22 on this particular issue. Violence, when it is perpetrated by one person against another, is sin, regardless of the reasons for it or the seemingly legitimate justifications that may arise in the heart and mind of the person perpetrating it. That is because, at its core, violence, in whatever form it takes, is a desperate and grasping attempt to violate the free will of the victim by attempting to force them to accept the will of the attacker. In other words, the person doing the violence is thinking, “You are doing something I don’t like or want, so I will make you do what I want, regardless of how you feel about it.” They may not articulate it that way consciously, but that is always the motivation for violence against another human being, whether we want to admit to it or not.

Is that the way God does things? Absolutely not! He is a perfect gentleman who always respects our free will, even to the point of allowing those who truly want nothing to do with Him and His offer of eternal life to die and spend eternity in hell without Him. He will never force anyone to get saved, or even do things His way if they do happen to get saved. Why do you think Jesus said again and again in the gospels, “If any man will be My disciple, they will do such-and-such?” Because He was basically saying that discipleship is supposed to be a free choice out of a genuine desire to love and serve God and our fellow human beings with our whole hearts and lives, motivated by thankfulness and gratitude to God for the incredibly merciful and gracious act of saving us in the first place, not something unwillingly forced down our throats from the outside. That’s how much He respects each and every person’s free will. And, He wants Christians to do things the same way.

But, what does that look like? The vast majority of people on this thread have made comments to the effect that just because we are called to forgive those who offend us does not mean we don’t protect ourselves or someone we care about through the use of violence, if someone is violently attacking us or them. I would humbly, respectfully, but adamantly disagree. How is being violent back to someone who is perpetrating violence against me or my loved ones forgiving them, much less showing them the unconditional love of Jesus? I would argue that it isn’t. I think the problem we have here is a basic misunderstanding of what forgiveness actually is. You see, when we truly forgive someone from the heart for what they have done to us, that means we release them to God, allowing Him to punish or pardon them in His perfect way, and in His perfect timing.

When we then turn around and attempt to punish them by doing what they did to us in a spirit of vengeance or revenge, that means we truly didn’t forgive them. Instead, we have decided to try and punish them ourselves, apart from God. It’s like we are saying to God, “I know You are the only one who can truly judge and punish this person fairly and objectively, but I’m gonna go ahead and attempt to punish them anyways.” We may not articulate it quite that way, but that is what is going on when we attempt to use violence to stop violence. Instead, what we should be doing is forgiving those who are hurting us or our loved ones, and allowing God to punish or pardon them as He sees fit. In other words, we are called to live lives of faithful and humble obedience, regardless of the consequences.

Of course, that begs the question, “Well then, suppose you had a child, and that child was being violently attacked by another person. What would you do? Would you use violence to protect them?” I honestly hope and pray something like that will never happen, but I wouldn’t use violence to protect them if it did. Ideally, I would get in between the attacker and my child, using my body to block the attacker from getting to and hurting my child any further, as well as taking the blows that he or she was trying to inflict on my child. All the while, I would be forgiving them for what they were doing and telling them about the love of Jesus and His free offer of forgiveness and eternal life. Or, maybe I would just sing “Jesus Loves Me” at the top of my lungs in an effort to surprise and confuse the attacker, all the while shielding my child’s body with my own. I wouldn’t use violence in attempt to stop the attack, though. I know for a fact that that would not be pleasing or honoring to God.

Another thing that we have to keep in mind when it comes to this issue is that Christians are called to a higher standard than Old Testament Israel. At least a couple of times in this thread, RabbiKnife has brought up the examples of Old Testament saints such as Joshua, David, Samson, etc., to supposedly show that God can and does use the violent acts of men to bring about His redemptive purposes. While I do not deny that that is what God has done in the past, that does not mean God condones or approves of Christians using violence against other human beings, even if we are doing so in the name of furthering God’s kingdom. That is because all of those people lived under the old covenant, and were obedient based on the amount of truth and light they had available to them at the time. We are under the new covenant, and therefore are called to live according to a higher standard. After all, doesn’t Jesus say over and over again in the gospels, “You have heard it said in times past…but I say unto you…”? That is because Jesus, being both fully God and fully human, understood better than anybody that before anybody sins against another human being, the sin first has its birth in the thoughts of their hearts. In other words, people think it before they do it. That’s just how God engineered and designed us.

Another example that the pro-violence crowd has put forth several times in this thread is Jesus cleansing the temple. They use it as a supposed illustration of how violence can be used without sinning. The thing they seem to forget is that there is not one shred of textual evidence that Jesus ever perpetrated violence against another human being during that entire incident. Go ahead and look for it if you want to, but I won’t hold my breath while you do, because it isn’t there. Don’t you think that if Jesus did throw a few punches and knee a few Pharisees in the groin, the gospel writers would have made sure to write about it in their accounts? You better believe they would have! And, yet, no such actions are ever recorded. Did He turn over the moneychangers tables? You bet. Did He make a whip out of cords and use it to scare the livestock out of the Temple courtyard? Absolutely. But to assume, because He did the things listed, He also violently attacked the people there, is simply not supported by any of the gospel accounts and run counter to the very nature and character of God. After all, Jesus, being both fully man and fully God, had such perfect, complete and total self-control that He was able to express His righteous indignation over the common people being exploited by the money-changers without sinning by violently attacking them.

The example that Firefighter brought up about the swords that Jesus had the disciples take up in the upper room, right before they headed out to the garden of Gethsemane, also needs to be addressed. The crux of the issue, at least as far as I can tell, is what Jesus’ motivation was for having them do that. The pro-violence folks on here would probably argue that He wanted them to use them to protect themselves from other human beings who may try to attack them physically. Again, I would disagree. That is because of what Jesus says in the garden, right after Peter lops off the ear of Malchus, the servant of the high priest. He says, “’Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled that it must happen this way?’” (Matthew 26:52-54, NASB) Notice the words of Jesus that I bolded in this passage. The way I look at it, Jesus is not saying that taking up the sword, and consequently perishing by the sword as a result, is something honorable, noble, glorious, or commendable, like some people might want to think. Instead, what I think He is saying here is that if you use man’s violent and fleshly methods in order to try to advance God’s kingdom, don’t be surprised if those who you perpetrate violence against are violent back. It’s just another demonstration of the law of sowing and reaping. If you sow violence into the life of another person, no matter how noble your goals or ideals for doing so may sound, more likely than not you will reap violence back from them.

So, why did Jesus want His disciples to take up swords in the upper room? I don’t know for sure, but I highly doubt it was to use against other human beings. My educated guess would be that they would need them to protect themselves from the various wild beasts that roamed the Palestinian countryside for the limited period of time between Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection, and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. After all, have you ever done a word search in the Old Testament for such predators as bears, lions and leopards? I don’t know the exact count off the top of my head, but they are mentioned quite a few times. Which leads me to believe that, while there may not have been quite as many in Jesus’ day as in Old Testament times, mainly due to the Roman Empire’s conquest of the area, they were still around and still a danger to unsuspecting travelers. That makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than the idea that Jesus wanted His disciples to use swords violently against other people. Besides, what did Jesus actually say in the upper room, when He had them take up swords. Here it is for your consideration:

And He said to them, “When I sent you out without purse and bag and sandals,you did not lack anything, did you?” And they said, “No, nothing.” And He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse bring it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one. For I tell you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” And they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.” (Luke 22:35-38, NASB)

In my mind, there is no indication in the text that this is meant to be a command for all Christians everywhere for all time. Instead, what I think what Jesus is doing here is caring for the very pragmatic/practical/down-to-earth needs of His original twelve disciples, minus Judas Iscariot of course, since he had already left the upper room at this point and was on his way to the Jewish authorities to lead them to Jesus once He got to the garden of Gethsemane.

Another issue that has been raised, namely by RabbiKnife in response to Vertical Reality’s comments in this thread, is that Christian pacifism is based on a legalistic/dogmatic/Pharisaical spirit, and that it takes the Sermon on the Mount out of context and makes it into some kind of law. Nothing could be further from the truth. When I read through the whole of the New Testament, I see Jesus’ call to nonviolence on every page, not just in the Sermon on the Mount. Take Paul’s statement that we are called to be ministers of reconciliation. How can we be if we are too busy trying to exact revenge against someone who is violently attacking us? I just don’t think it’s possible. Instead, we are called to humbly and respectfully love everyone unconditionally, the way that God does, regardless of how they treat us. Does that mean that evil will occasionally temporarily prevail in certain situations? Yes, but the good news of the gospel is that good will ultimately triumph over evil, God will banish and eliminate all injustice and violence from His good creation once and for all, and Jesus will vindicate us in His perfect timing. We may have to physically die when we are fully obedient to God’s call to nonviolently love and forgive those who despitefully use us, but there are worse things than dying in my book. After all, I would rather die being obedient showing someone love, compassion, and forgiveness, rather than live by violently protecting myself in a spirit of vengeance, retribution or revenge. It goes back to what I said at the beginning of this post. When I attempt to enforce my will against someone else, I am violating their free will, and not showing them the love and forgiveness of God as a result.

That’s about it for now. Sorry for rambling on for so long, but I felt it necessary to explain why I believe what I do. Besides, I’m not sure how to go about quoting from multiple people in one post, so I thought I’d address the main objections sequentially. If anyone would like further clarification on any of the issues addressed in this post, or how my views lines up with Scripture, please feel free to ask, and I’ll do my best to explain. The one thing that I come away from all of this with is an increased sense of urgency when it comes to writing my book so that I can get the message out to Christendom at large that we are called to shun violence in all its forms and work to find nonviolent solutions to all of the world’s conflicts. God bless, and have a great day in the Lord!

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

Liquid Tension
Mar 30th 2011, 06:55 PM
This is probably unsurprising to the vast majority of you, but I happen to agree with Vertical Reality and mattlad22 on this particular issue. Violence, when it is perpetrated by one person against another, is sin, regardless of the reasons for it or the seemingly legitimate justifications that may arise in the heart and mind of the person perpetrating it. That is because, at its core, violence, in whatever form it takes, is a desperate and grasping attempt to violate the free will of the victim by attempting to force them to accept the will of the attacker. In other words, the person doing the violence is thinking, “You are doing something I don’t like or want, so I will make you do what I want, regardless of how you feel about it.” They may not articulate it that way consciously, but that is always the motivation for violence against another human being, whether we want to admit to it or not.

Is that the way God does things? Absolutely not! He is a perfect gentleman who always respects our free will, even to the point of allowing those who truly want nothing to do with Him and His offer of eternal life to die and spend eternity in hell without Him. He will never force anyone to get saved, or even do things His way if they do happen to get saved. Why do you think Jesus said again and again in the gospels, “If any man will be My disciple, they will do such-and-such?” Because He was basically saying that discipleship is supposed to be a free choice out of a genuine desire to love and serve God and our fellow human beings with our whole hearts and lives, motivated by thankfulness and gratitude to God for the incredibly merciful and gracious act of saving us in the first place, not something unwillingly forced down our throats from the outside. That’s how much He respects each and every person’s free will. And, He wants Christians to do things the same way.

But, what does that look like? The vast majority of people on this thread have made comments to the effect that just because we are called to forgive those who offend us does not mean we don’t protect ourselves or someone we care about through the use of violence, if someone is violently attacking us or them. I would humbly, respectfully, but adamantly disagree. How is being violent back to someone who is perpetrating violence against me or my loved ones forgiving them, much less showing them the unconditional love of Jesus? I would argue that it isn’t. I think the problem we have here is a basic misunderstanding of what forgiveness actually is. You see, when we truly forgive someone from the heart for what they have done to us, that means we release them to God, allowing Him to punish or pardon them in His perfect way, and in His perfect timing.

When we then turn around and attempt to punish them by doing what they did to us in a spirit of vengeance or revenge, that means we truly didn’t forgive them. Instead, we have decided to try and punish them ourselves, apart from God. It’s like we are saying to God, “I know You are the only one who can truly judge and punish this person fairly and objectively, but I’m gonna go ahead and attempt to punish them anyways.” We may not articulate it quite that way, but that is what is going on when we attempt to use violence to stop violence. Instead, what we should be doing is forgiving those who are hurting us or our loved ones, and allowing God to punish or pardon them as He sees fit. In other words, we are called to live lives of faithful and humble obedience, regardless of the consequences.

Of course, that begs the question, “Well then, suppose you had a child, and that child was being violently attacked by another person. What would you do? Would you use violence to protect them?” I honestly hope and pray something like that will never happen, but I wouldn’t use violence to protect them if it did. Ideally, I would get in between the attacker and my child, using my body to block the attacker from getting to and hurting my child any further, as well as taking the blows that he or she was trying to inflict on my child. All the while, I would be forgiving them for what they were doing and telling them about the love of Jesus and His free offer of forgiveness and eternal life. Or, maybe I would just sing “Jesus Loves Me” at the top of my lungs in an effort to surprise and confuse the attacker, all the while shielding my child’s body with my own. I wouldn’t use violence in attempt to stop the attack, though. I know for a fact that that would not be pleasing or honoring to God.

Another thing that we have to keep in mind when it comes to this issue is that Christians are called to a higher standard than Old Testament Israel. At least a couple of times in this thread, RabbiKnife has brought up the examples of Old Testament saints such as Joshua, David, Samson, etc., to supposedly show that God can and does use the violent acts of men to bring about His redemptive purposes. While I do not deny that that is what God has done in the past, that does not mean God condones or approves of Christians using violence against other human beings, even if we are doing so in the name of furthering God’s kingdom. That is because all of those people lived under the old covenant, and were obedient based on the amount of truth and light they had available to them at the time. We are under the new covenant, and therefore are called to live according to a higher standard. After all, doesn’t Jesus say over and over again in the gospels, “You have heard it said in times past…but I say unto you…”? That is because Jesus, being both fully God and fully human, understood better than anybody that before anybody sins against another human being, the sin first has its birth in the thoughts of their hearts. In other words, people think it before they do it. That’s just how God engineered and designed us.

Another example that the pro-violence crowd has put forth several times in this thread is Jesus cleansing the temple. They use it as a supposed illustration of how violence can be used without sinning. The thing they seem to forget is that there is not one shred of textual evidence that Jesus ever perpetrated violence against another human being during that entire incident. Go ahead and look for it if you want to, but I won’t hold my breath while you do, because it isn’t there. Don’t you think that if Jesus did throw a few punches and knee a few Pharisees in the groin, the gospel writers would have made sure to write about it in their accounts? You better believe they would have! And, yet, no such actions are ever recorded. Did He turn over the moneychangers tables? You bet. Did He make a whip out of cords and use it to scare the livestock out of the Temple courtyard? Absolutely. But to assume, because He did the things listed, He also violently attacked the people there, is simply not supported by any of the gospel accounts and run counter to the very nature and character of God. After all, Jesus, being both fully man and fully God, had such perfect, complete and total self-control that He was able to express His righteous indignation over the common people being exploited by the money-changers without sinning by violently attacking them.

The example that Firefighter brought up about the swords that Jesus had the disciples take up in the upper room, right before they headed out to the garden of Gethsemane, also needs to be addressed. The crux of the issue, at least as far as I can tell, is what Jesus’ motivation was for having them do that. The pro-violence folks on here would probably argue that He wanted them to use them to protect themselves from other human beings who may try to attack them physically. Again, I would disagree. That is because of what Jesus says in the garden, right after Peter lops off the ear of Malchus, the servant of the high priest. He says, “’Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled that it must happen this way?’” (Matthew 26:52-54, NASB) Notice the words of Jesus that I bolded in this passage. The way I look at it, Jesus is not saying that taking up the sword, and consequently perishing by the sword as a result, is something honorable, noble, glorious, or commendable, like some people might want to think. Instead, what I think He is saying here is that if you use man’s violent and fleshly methods in order to try to advance God’s kingdom, don’t be surprised if those who you perpetrate violence against are violent back. It’s just another demonstration of the law of sowing and reaping. If you sow violence into the life of another person, no matter how noble your goals or ideals for doing so may sound, more likely than not you will reap violence back from them.

So, why did Jesus want His disciples to take up swords in the upper room? I don’t know for sure, but I highly doubt it was to use against other human beings. My educated guess would be that they would need them to protect themselves from the various wild beasts that roamed the Palestinian countryside for the limited period of time between Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection, and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. After all, have you ever done a word search in the Old Testament for such predators as bears, lions and leopards? I don’t know the exact count off the top of my head, but they are mentioned quite a few times. Which leads me to believe that, while there may not have been quite as many in Jesus’ day as in Old Testament times, mainly due to the Roman Empire’s conquest of the area, they were still around and still a danger to unsuspecting travelers. That makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than the idea that Jesus wanted His disciples to use swords violently against other people. Besides, what did Jesus actually say in the upper room, when He had them take up swords. Here it is for your consideration:

And He said to them, “When I sent you out without purse and bag and sandals,you did not lack anything, did you?” And they said, “No, nothing.” And He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse bring it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one. For I tell you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” And they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.” (Luke 22:35-38, NASB)

In my mind, there is no indication in the text that this is meant to be a command for all Christians everywhere for all time. Instead, what I think what Jesus is doing here is caring for the very pragmatic/practical/down-to-earth needs of His original twelve disciples, minus Judas Iscariot of course, since he had already left the upper room at this point and was on his way to the Jewish authorities to lead them to Jesus once He got to the garden of Gethsemane.

Another issue that has been raised, namely by RabbiKnife in response to Vertical Reality’s comments in this thread, is that Christian pacifism is based on a legalistic/dogmatic/Pharisaical spirit, and that it takes the Sermon on the Mount out of context and makes it into some kind of law. Nothing could be further from the truth. When I read through the whole of the New Testament, I see Jesus’ call to nonviolence on every page, not just in the Sermon on the Mount. Take Paul’s statement that we are called to be ministers of reconciliation. How can we be if we are too busy trying to exact revenge against someone who is violently attacking us? I just don’t think it’s possible. Instead, we are called to humbly and respectfully love everyone unconditionally, the way that God does, regardless of how they treat us. Does that mean that evil will occasionally temporarily prevail in certain situations? Yes, but the good news of the gospel is that good will ultimately triumph over evil, God will banish and eliminate all injustice and violence from His good creation once and for all, and Jesus will vindicate us in His perfect timing. We may have to physically die when we are fully obedient to God’s call to nonviolently love and forgive those who despitefully use us, but there are worse things than dying in my book. After all, I would rather die being obedient showing someone love, compassion, and forgiveness, rather than live by violently protecting myself in a spirit of vengeance, retribution or revenge. It goes back to what I said at the beginning of this post. When I attempt to enforce my will against someone else, I am violating their free will, and not showing them the love and forgiveness of God as a result.

That’s about it for now. Sorry for rambling on for so long, but I felt it necessary to explain why I believe what I do. Besides, I’m not sure how to go about quoting from multiple people in one post, so I thought I’d address the main objections sequentially. If anyone would like further clarification on any of the issues addressed in this post, or how my views lines up with Scripture, please feel free to ask, and I’ll do my best to explain. The one thing that I come away from all of this with is an increased sense of urgency when it comes to writing my book so that I can get the message out to Christendom at large that we are called to shun violence in all its forms and work to find nonviolent solutions to all of the world’s conflicts. God bless, and have a great day in the Lord!

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin


First of all, I've only skimmed thru your post a couple of times. So from the surface, 2 points I will lightly touch on is:

1) I don't believe anyone here is 'pro-violence' nor advocating violence period.

2) I don't feel that defending one's self is an act of vengeance or revenge. Coming from an MMA background, defending oneself would be incapacitating your attacker enough to be able to run away.....whether that's by choking them, taking out a leg (or knee), or yes, even a strike to the groin.....something to be able to get away. What I would consider a sin, or act of vengeance/revenge would be if after subduing my attacker, I turned around and kicked him in the head for 'good measure' or continued my attack on him.

For me, if I come under attack, I will defend myself..............but that would be after trying to walk away first.


edit: I'd love to read your book when you're done with it.

IMINXTC
Mar 30th 2011, 09:12 PM
I'd have to say , watching that video several times, it was something akin to poetic justice. I reckon it'll be awhile before that young man puts his hands on anybody and, quite frankly, a career of violence, or worse, might have been averted.

If I had acted in such a manner as he did to that big kid, and my old-man found out about it, I would have gotten two beatings and would have been drug to that kid's house to apologise to him and his family.

An apology her deserves.

thethirdtuttle
Mar 31st 2011, 04:27 AM
First of all, I've only skimmed thru your post a couple of times. So from the surface, 2 points I will lightly touch on is:

1) I don't believe anyone here is 'pro-violence' nor advocating violence period.

2) I don't feel that defending one's self is an act of vengeance or revenge. Coming from an MMA background, defending oneself would be incapacitating your attacker enough to be able to run away.....whether that's by choking them, taking out a leg (or knee), or yes, even a strike to the groin.....something to be able to get away. What I would consider a sin, or act of vengeance/revenge would be if after subduing my attacker, I turned around and kicked him in the head for 'good measure' or continued my attack on him.

For me, if I come under attack, I will defend myself..............but that would be after trying to walk away first.


edit: I'd love to read your book when you're done with it.

Liquid Tension:

First of all, thank you for your response to my post. I know I can get quite long-winded sometimes, but I feel it is necessary to do so in order to adequately describe/explain where I am coming from. So, for you to take the time to read through what I had to say means a lot. Thank you.

As to your first point, I would agree with you. I guess using "pro-violence" was a poor word choice on my part. So, if I offended anyone here by suggesting they advocate the use of violence when they don't, please forgive me. What I meant by that was the people who thought what both boys did was commendable, praiseworthy, or laudable. In my mind, neither one acted in a Christ-like manner. That is because I believe, as I said in my post, violence is wrong, no matter what. Am I naive enough to believe they should've known better, or were capable of doing something different? No, because I know that only Christians are capable of living the way Jesus describes in the Sermon on the Mount, as well as how He actually lived for the thirty-plus years He walked this earth. That is because we have the supernatural empowerment of the Holy Spirit living inside us, enabling us to do things we wouldn't normally be able to do. Such as forgive those who hurt or offend us, as well as love them unconditionally, even if they continue to do so. In my opinion, that is what will draw people to God, since Jesus said that we would be known as His disciples by our love for one another and for the world.

When it comes to your second point, I would humbly disagree that God wants us to defend or protect ourselves. You see, if you study the Bible carefully, which I'm sure you do, you will see that, especially in places like the Psalms and Proverbs, God inspires the human authors to write things like, "The name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous runs into it and is safe." (Proverbs 18:10, NASB) and "The LORD is your keeper; the LORD is your shade on your right hand. The sun will not smite you by day, nor the moon by night. The LORD will protect you from all evil; He will keep your soul. The LORD will guard your going out and your coming in from this time forth and forever." (Psalms 121:5-8, NASB) So, it's God's job to protect us and keep us safe, not ours. So, when we try to do it ourselves by doing so in our own strength, we step out from God's umbrella of protection, and He allows us to suffer the natural consequences of our willfulness as a form of chastening and discipline. I liken it to a medieval knight who ventures outside the castle where his fellow knights are awaiting an attacking army in an attempt to defeat them all by himself. Will he have a measure of success for a short period of time? Sure, but he will soon be overwhelmed and conquered by their far superior numbers, and with his dying breath, he will wish he had stayed inside the thick stone walls of the castle with his friends, where he at least had a fighting chance. The thing is, God is the only one qualified to protect and defend us, so when we try to do it ourselves, we will not please the Lord with our efforts, no matter how successful we are according to human standards. That is because God's definition of success is the exact opposite of that of the world. He defines success as whole-hearted and faithful obedience to what He has called us to do, no matter what the consequences might end up being for ourselves. He has called us to love Him with everything we have and are, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. On the other hand, the world defines success as more money, more stuff, more comfort, more toys, etc.

That's about it for now. I hope that helps clarify my thought process a bit better. God bless, and have a great night in the Lord!

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin