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zorba
Mar 30th 2011, 05:26 PM
Sorry, there is not one verse in the new testament promoting war. Jesus was anti war. These actions are wrong!

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 05:27 PM
If Jesus is anti-war, then someone better tell him about the Book of Revelation....

Jesus is not "anti-war". Nor is he "pro-war".

Jesus established governments in this world. (Romans 13) They "wield the sword" for a purpose that is ordained by God.

zorba
Mar 30th 2011, 05:31 PM
Jesus was against war, killing, violence. These wars are not christian in any sense of the word.

Fenris
Mar 30th 2011, 05:33 PM
Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war..."


Or is that someone else?

Vhayes
Mar 30th 2011, 05:34 PM
The entire book of Revelation is a massive war.

Turning over the money changers tables wasn't exactly a Peace Conference.

Selective reading is not good on either end of the spectrum.

zorba
Mar 30th 2011, 05:34 PM
Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war..."


Or is that someone else?

How about a NEW TESTAMENT verse please?

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 05:34 PM
Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war..."


Or is that someone else?

That must be that mean, angry, Old Testament "Lord," not Jesus. You should be OK with that...

:D

Slug1
Mar 30th 2011, 05:36 PM
Sorry, there is not one verse in the new testament promoting war. Jesus was anti war. These actions are wrong!

Romans 13: 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

When wrongdoers are doing wrong, God uses Ministers of God to destroy them. These obedient servants bring God's wrath to those evil doers.

When God's hand is moved and these avengers are sent forward into the world to kill the evildoers... the term "war" can be used. However, not all conflict is of God, so not all wars are of God's purpose. For example (opinion)... Libya is not following God's will in doing what they are doing. Some nations of the world are being used to STOP this wrongdoing. This is an example of Minister's of God stopping wrongdoing in the world. If the effort was just done COMPLETE and not hold back... then stopping the wrongdoers would be more effective. If God wants the wrongdoers dead, we have to do this effort with the will to follow through completely and kill them.

We can't say God does not "use" war for His purposes though... God has killed, is killing, and when Jesus returns... He'll do a ton of killing.

Read the Bible, it's all in there for your understanding. The problem is what not all Christians "accept" this truth about God.

Fenris
Mar 30th 2011, 05:37 PM
How about a NEW TESTAMENT verse please?

Wait, there's a NEW testament? :o


Has anyone told the Jews about this? :hmm:

Fenris
Mar 30th 2011, 05:37 PM
That must be that mean, angry, Old Testament "Lord," not Jesus. You should be OK with that...

They're not the same dude?

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 05:38 PM
Wait, there's a NEW testament? :o


Has anyone told the Jews about this? :hmm:

We've been trying to keep it a secret, but hey, I guess the cat is out of the bag, now...

Fenris
Mar 30th 2011, 05:39 PM
We've been trying to keep it a secret, but hey, I guess the cat is out of the bag, now...

I've been keeping all these rules for nothing? Sigh...

zorba
Mar 30th 2011, 05:42 PM
slug1, Jesus preached forgivness. Do you really think he would want people to kill other people????????

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 05:43 PM
I've been keeping all these rules for nothing? Sigh...

Just keep on keepin' them.

Then we can call you a legalist or a Pharisee. See? Just like MicroSoft...a free upgrade.

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 05:43 PM
slug1, Jesus preached forgivness. Do you really think he would want people to kill other people????????

He wouldn't have a problem with it if it was their job or in self-defense or in defense of others.

Slug1
Mar 30th 2011, 05:45 PM
slug1, Jesus preached forgivness. Do you really think he would want people to kill other people????????Like I said... when He returns He'll do all the killing Himself. Ya just have to read the whole Bible in context from page 1 to the last page to understand who Jesus IS... eternally.

Jesus IS not only as He WAS during a 3 year ministry while He was in the flesh. He's much more and to understand this... all the Bible must be read, not just 4 Gospels.

zorba
Mar 30th 2011, 05:45 PM
OK, so Jesus did not have a job with the concentration camp gassers. It was their job, right?

Slug1
Mar 30th 2011, 05:47 PM
OK, so Jesus did not have a job with the concentration camp gassers. It was their job, right?Are you going political agenda on us? Or are we gonna discuss scripture to understand Jesus?

Like I said... wrongdoers (Nazis) back then were destroyed by who God was using to stop their evil. In came the Minister's of God and stopped them.

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 05:48 PM
OK, so Jesus did not have a job with the concentration camp gassers. It was their job, right?

Concentration camp gassers had nothing to do with war. That was murder. And entirely different species of taking human life. Murder is condemned; all killing is not.

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 05:48 PM
Are you going political agenda on us? Or are we gonna discuss scripture to understand Jesus?

It's called "grasping at straws."

Fenris
Mar 30th 2011, 05:48 PM
OK, so Jesus did not have a job with the concentration camp gassers. It was their job, right?

I'm not sure what your point here is. So a soldier protecting his country from being overrun by people who want to kill him is the same as a Nazi gassing civilians to death?

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 05:49 PM
I'm not sure what your point here is. So a soldier protecting his country from being overrun by people who want to kill him is the same as a Nazi gassing civilians to death?

Don't go there...it will make your noggin hurt.

Slug1
Mar 30th 2011, 05:50 PM
It's called "grasping at straws."yeah well... it's all misunderstanding one way or another. People just need to be set straight.

Fenris
Mar 30th 2011, 05:57 PM
Don't go there...it will make your noggin hurt.

Yeah my brain is gnawing it's way out...

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 05:57 PM
Yeah my brain is gnawing it's way out...

Duct tape............

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2011, 05:59 PM
Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war..."

I believe that is the best one I have ever seen... :lol:

BRAVO!!!!

zorba
Mar 30th 2011, 06:15 PM
Matthew 5:9

Romans 12:18-19

1 Peter 2: 21-23

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 06:18 PM
None of those passages have anything to do with a nation's right of war.

notuptome
Mar 30th 2011, 06:44 PM
I'm all for living at peace with the others in the world around me. Problem is when they won't allow me to live in peace. The adversary always provokes them to violence against me. I would rather not strike the first blow but I will endeavor to strike the last blow should the cause arise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 30th 2011, 07:14 PM
Matthew 5:9

Romans 12:18-19

1 Peter 2: 21-23Not only does the Bible contain these scriptures but the ones I posted as well. Now... these that you posted are in mine and i accept them. Are the ones that I posted in your Bible and do you accept them?

zorba
Mar 30th 2011, 07:26 PM
Not only does the Bible contain these scriptures but the ones I posted as well. Now... these that you posted are in mine and i accept them. Are the ones that I posted in your Bible and do you accept them?

If it is in God's word, then they have to be accepted. Some verses however are open to interpretation. But it should be discussed. (Now my complaint: discuss in the context of the Bible and the times th Bible was written, do not discuss per history chanel, discovery chanel where they try to totally discredit the Bible).

Jesus preached forgiveness and peace (blessed be the peacemakers). Personally (IMO), I think we should nuked afghanistan off the map, but Iraq was wrong and based on lies.

mattlad22
Mar 30th 2011, 07:30 PM
I think we (Canadians) are actually planning to start pulling out of Afghanistan by the end of the year or so, so really it must be making some progress from the Alliances plans.

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 07:32 PM
If it is in God's word, then they have to be accepted. Some verses however are open to interpretation. But it should be discussed. (Now my complaint: discuss in the context of the Bible and the times th Bible was written, do not discuss per history chanel, discovery chanel where they try to totally discredit the Bible).

Jesus preached forgiveness and peace (blessed be the peacemakers). Personally (IMO), I think we should nuked afghanistan off the map, but Iraq was wrong and based on lies.

Your last paragraph is completely contradictory.

Fenris
Mar 30th 2011, 07:32 PM
Personally (IMO), I think we should nuked afghanistan off the map, but Iraq was wrong and based on lies.

So a war is ok only when you personally approve of it

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 07:33 PM
So a war is ok only when you personally approve of it

That is the Obama Doctrine(TM).

Fenris
Mar 30th 2011, 07:36 PM
That is the Obama Doctrine(TM).

Zorba = Obama?

:hmm:

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 07:40 PM
Zorba = Obama?

:hmm:

The Obama Doctrine(TM) can be utilized by any individual. It is based on the last half of the last verse of Judges.

Fenris
Mar 30th 2011, 07:51 PM
It is based on the last half of the last verse of Judges.
Whoah good scriptural support!

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 07:53 PM
Whoah good scriptural support!

Yeah, and I went "old school", too...

:D

zorba
Mar 30th 2011, 07:54 PM
So a war is ok only when you personally approve of it

NO, but afghanistan harbored the taliban and al queda. Major enemies of the US and the west. Iraq had no chemical weapons and they knew it. Rumsfeld also said we would be in Iraq for 6 months at the most. That is why I avoid church, I find most christians tend to be very pro war. And for the "obama doctrine" (I do not like Obama) but christians slam him and praise Bush. Yet, Obama is a Bible believeing Christian, so why?

Fenris
Mar 30th 2011, 07:58 PM
NO, but afghanistan harbored the taliban and al queda. Major enemies of the US and the west. Iraq had no chemical weapons and they knew it.
In the post 9/11 world, Saddam was a threat to US interests and US allies. That's how the administration saw it and I agree.

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 07:58 PM
You are being inconsistent.

You say that "Jesus preached peace" but then you support war. So aren't you guilty of the very thing you accuse us of?

No one "slams" Obama or "praises" Bush. I personally slam Obama's policy as being naive, childish, and the product of having never done anything in his life. I personally slammed Bush's policy when it was unconstitutional, like TARP and the medicare drug plan.

Avoiding church because "most Christians are pro war" doesn't make any sense, as (a) the Bible is not "anti-war" and (b) church is not the place to discuss war to start with, as a general rule.

But, as long as you can make the rules up to satisfy yourself, I guess that's OK.

It is consistent with the Obama Doctrine.

Liquid Tension
Mar 30th 2011, 08:10 PM
That is why I avoid church, I find most christians tend to be very pro war.

Any proof of this statement??? And if this is your reason for avoiding church, it is a rather poor excuse. I don't go to church to be with people who are pro- or anti-war. I go to church to worship the Lord and hear the teaching of His Word.



Yet, Obama is a Bible believeing Christian, so why?

This is what he claims. So did BOOOOOOOOSH, Clinton, Bush 41, Reagan, Carter..........you get the picture.

zorba
Mar 30th 2011, 09:33 PM
You are being inconsistent.

You say that "Jesus preached peace" but then you support war. So aren't you guilty of the very thing you accuse us of?

No one "slams" Obama or "praises" Bush. I personally slam Obama's policy as being naive, childish, and the product of having never done anything in his life. I personally slammed Bush's policy when it was unconstitutional, like TARP and the medicare drug plan.

Avoiding church because "most Christians are pro war" doesn't make any sense, as (a) the Bible is not "anti-war" and (b) church is not the place to discuss war to start with, as a general rule.

But, as long as you can make the rules up to satisfy yourself, I guess that's OK.

It is consistent with the Obama Doctrine.

I amnot making up any rules, you are. I am just stating opinion. And YES, the Bible (NEW TESTAMENT) is anti war! You are making up your own rules. The idea of being a christian is to ask yourself what would jesus do. Since you want to argue war WRT the Bible. What happenmed when God told the Israelites to invade an area. They did it and none were killed. If God wanted us in Iraq, there would be no dead US soldiers. Also, God has not blessed the USA. God has a convenant with Isreal and that is it.

RabbiKnife
Mar 30th 2011, 09:41 PM
I amnot making up any rules, you are. I am just stating opinion. And YES, the Bible (NEW TESTAMENT) is anti war! You are making up your own rules. The idea of being a christian is to ask yourself what would jesus do. Since you want to argue war WRT the Bible. What happenmed when God told the Israelites to invade an area. They did it and none were killed. If God wanted us in Iraq, there would be no dead US soldiers. Also, God has not blessed the USA. God has a convenant with Isreal and that is it.

Often times when the Israelites attacked another army, THOUSANDS of Israelites were killed. Please get your facts straight before making outlandish responses. If God has that covenant with Israel, then someone might want to explain that the IDF soldiers can't be killed to those BURIED on Mt. Herzl in the IDF Memorial Cemetery in Jerusalem.

zorba
Mar 31st 2011, 12:12 AM
When GOD TOLD THEM TO TAKE AN AREA and they follwoed God's word, NO ISRAELITES WERE KILLED. As for the IDF God does not tell them to attack or take land, totally different. God will protect Israel (as he did in 1948 and 1973) but he will not tell them to sin. Also, the US is no different than any other country, we have no covenanat with God and if we keep disopeying his word, we are done.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2011, 12:35 AM
but Iraq was wrong and based on lies.Well... I have another opinion based on the fact I was in that country for 2 tours and I was able to speak to the general population. I was served food, I was given hospitality and I was thanked about a THOUSAND times by all ages of Iraqis for bringing them their freedom and I was only ONE single soldier. So imagine all the soldiers thanked a THOUSAND times themselves by these people and I bet we can add up a MILLION THANK YOUS!

The reason to help doesn't matter concerning the method to get us into that country to help them.

I watched thousands of Iraqis get their fingers dyed purple when they voted for the first time and I knew of many lines of those voting getting blown up. Ya want to know how important their freedom was and that the threat of death to do a simple vote wasn't gonna stop them? The blood in the streets wasn't even dried and they were lining back up to continue making their votes!

Your opinion is based on what?

The news and what they broadcast?

Walk the streets of Iraq, share a few glasses of chai with some Iraqis and talk with them.

Doing the right thing? People didn't have the stomach for doing the RIGHT thing and just go in and stop Hussein, so it took what we all believe was a lie... when I watch an Iraqi point that dyed finger at me smiling and waving a thank you... the lie was being blind to their hardship and allowing them to be under Hussein for so long.

I was in a position to spend money for the rebuilding of much of the area I was responsible for... 8 million dollars later, we rebuild about 50 schools, a bridge, 3 medical centers, 3 electrical power plants, 8 water treatment plants... the final one being the largest project contracted for 3.5 million bucks.

In cash, I had 5 million go through my hands... crisp new $100 bills. I still to this day have the serial numbers of all that cash because I had to track the money.

Anyway... if you have a political opinion, that's cool. When you start applying that opinion to scripture and come to a distorted view of God and what He can and can't do concerning the topic of war... then some things have to set straight.

I possibly can help you set your opinion of Iraq straight, but only the Bible can set you straight when it comes to God. Allow the Holy Spirit to do His job and guide you through the Bible to help you find the answers and understanding you seek. The Holy Spirit illuminates the scriptures for you... allows you to understand the true meaning of scripture in full context of the entire scope of the Bible.


I amnot making up any rules, you are. I am just stating opinion. And YES, the Bible (NEW TESTAMENT) is anti war! .

Negative... I showed you the scriptures in the Bible from the NT that war and police forces will be used BY God to bring His wrath to the evil doer. Do you accept these scriptures?

Or you will not accept those scriptures, and we will have to listen to you keep saying stuff like this second quote?

At least you are right about something, it is just "your" opinion but it's not based on all of scripture in full context of the Bible and just who Jesus IS!

Firefighter
Mar 31st 2011, 12:49 AM
When GOD TOLD THEM TO TAKE AN AREA and they follwoed God's word, NO ISRAELITES WERE KILLED. As for the IDF God does not tell them to attack or take land, totally different. God will protect Israel (as he did in 1948 and 1973) but he will not tell them to sin. Also, the US is no different than any other country, we have no covenanat with God and if we keep disopeying his word, we are done.

In 1948-49 Israel lost 6,373 of its people. In 1973 Israel lost 2,800 of it's people. I guess God is slacking, huh?

Hunter121
Mar 31st 2011, 03:11 AM
Jesus isn't pro war or anti war, he is nuetral, his first coming was promoting peace and his second coming will be of revenge/war, I mean do you really think Jesus is going to just hang out with the antichrist, no he is going to throw him in the bottomless pit, where he will suffer in pain and agony for a thousand years, it's not peaceful.

thethirdtuttle
Mar 31st 2011, 09:23 AM
Romans 13: 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

When wrongdoers are doing wrong, God uses Ministers of God to destroy them. These obedient servants bring God's wrath to those evil doers.

When God's hand is moved and these avengers are sent forward into the world to kill the evildoers... the term "war" can be used. However, not all conflict is of God, so not all wars are of God's purpose. For example (opinion)... Libya is not following God's will in doing what they are doing. Some nations of the world are being used to STOP this wrongdoing. This is an example of Minister's of God stopping wrongdoing in the world. If the effort was just done COMPLETE and not hold back... then stopping the wrongdoers would be more effective. If God wants the wrongdoers dead, we have to do this effort with the will to follow through completely and kill them.

We can't say God does not "use" war for His purposes though... God has killed, is killing, and when Jesus returns... He'll do a ton of killing.

Read the Bible, it's all in there for your understanding. The problem is what not all Christians "accept" this truth about God.

Slug1:

While I can see where you are coming from with this, I will have to humbly and respectfully disagree. First of all, in the passage from Romans that you quoted, there is not one shred of textual evidence that the governing authorities are called by God to execute His wrath on anyone in another country/nation-state/part of the world. That is your particular interpretation that you are reading into the text. It simply isn't there. Instead, as I've stated elsewhere, I believe the more reasonable interpretation is that this is something that is meant to occur within that country's borders and among it's own citizens. That doesn't mean people aren't going to interpret it the way that you are in this post and use it as a justification to go to war with other countries. The United States is a prime example of that. Do people around the world want freedom from tyranny, justice and democracy? Sure they do, but those things can't be obtained militarily, at least not in the long term. You might make some temporary progress, and topple some tyrants, but true and lasting peace can only come through loving acts of reconciliation, forgiveness and compassion, not war. That is because of the law of sowing and reaping. If you sow violence into the life of another person, nine times out of ten you are going to get violence back. On the other hand, if you are loving, respectful and forgiving towards them, they are much likely to respond in kind. That's just the way God engineered things.

I do agree that God did use wars under the old covenant to bring about His purposes, but I would also be quick to add, as I have stated elsewhere, that we who are Christians are not under the old covenant anymore, and are called to a higher standard. That means that it would be wrong of us to engage in warfare. After all, Christians are NOT pre-Incarnation Israel. We are called to "pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14, NASB) and "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." (Romans 12:18, NASB) And, the Greek word translated as "be at peace" in the verse I just quoted is the same one translated as "peacemakers" in Matthew 5:9. So, making peace is meant to be an active process that we are to work at by forgiving those who have offended us and loving them unconditionally, just like God does, no matter what the consequences to ourselves might be. As I also stated elsewhere, it's not our job to protect or defend ourselves. That's God's job, as He is the only one qualified to do it properly and perfectly. How would you like it if, in the middle of your regular dentist visit, a total stranger off the street, with no dental training whatsoever, pushed the dental hygienist aside and began poking random instruments into your mouth? You wouldn't, would you. That is because he wasn't qualified to do what he was trying to do. The same thing happens when we try to defend ourselves, because, as I said, only the Lord is qualified to do it the right way. We only have ourselves to blame for the negative consequences if we try to do it ourselves.

Besides all that, Christians are called to fight a spiritual war with spiritual weapons, not a physical one with physical weapons. That is because our true enemy is Satan and his fellow fallen angels, not the people who come against us, no matter how evil they may seem. They are human beings, just like us, who need Jesus just as badly as we did before we were saved. Unfortunately, Satan uses them to distract and confuse us as to the true nature of our warfare. Christians fighting in the military, then, can be likened to Dan Marino in his prime being given wrong directions and showing up at a high school soccer game, ready to play a game of football. Wrong equipment, wrong opponent, wrong battlefield. And, as I've also stated elsewhere, Satan can't be defeated with physical weapons because he is a fallen angel and not a human being, and the more we try to do so, the more we fall into his trap of feeding into the downward spiral of revenge, vengeance and violence. Only through prayer, Bible study, worship, forgiveness and reconciliation can that cycle be broken, Satan be defeated, and true healing and restoration begin.

As far as when Jesus returns, He will be casting a whole lot of people into the lake of fire, that is for sure. But, as I've also mentioned elsewhere, that is His unique prerogative as Judge of the universe. No Christian, or any other human being for that matter, has that right. Since God is the Creator of the universe, He is uniquely qualified to give life and to take it away as He sees fit. Nowhere in the Bible do I see any indication that Christians are called to do the latter. Technically, we can't even do the former, since, even though He works through human parents to conceive a baby, they are not the ones who create it. God is. They are just the instruments He uses to bring that child into the world. We are simply called to preach the gospel and forgive those who sin against us. Pretty simple and straightforward, huh?

That's about it for now. I hope that helps clear up why I believe what I do. Feel free to ask me any questions if anything is unclear, or if you want further elaboration. God bless, and have a great day in the Lord!

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

Slug1
Mar 31st 2011, 05:02 PM
Slug1:

While I can see where you are coming from with this, I will have to humbly and respectfully disagree. First of all, in the passage from Romans that you quoted, there is not one shred of textual evidence that the governing authorities are called by God to execute His wrath on anyone in another country/nation-state/part of the world. The textual evidence is based on v4. If God plans to execute wrath upon an evil doer... He has not only authorized government but uses them and those who are Minister's of God to be the instruments that He will use. Verse 1 of this scripture DOES establish that they are operating under His authority. Now, the question of questions... are they "always"??? I will have to say... not always. When some raise up and utilize their authority in wrong ways, against God's will and these governments are abusing their auhtority... then God does use those at His disposal to destroy those doing evil.



That is your particular interpretation that you are reading into the text. It simply isn't there. Instead, as I've stated elsewhere, I believe the more reasonable interpretation is that this is something that is meant to occur within that country's borders and among it's own citizens. You are welcomed to this opinion.


That doesn't mean people aren't going to interpret it the way that you are in this post and use it as a justification to go to war with other countries. This is my opinion based on scritpure and the fact of being led by God in such a way as a soldier.



The United States is a prime example of that. Do people around the world want freedom from tyranny, justice and democracy? Sure they do, but those things can't be obtained militarily, at least not in the long term. You might make some temporary progress, and topple some tyrants, but true and lasting peace can only come through loving acts of reconciliation, forgiveness and compassion, not war. That is because of the law of sowing and reaping. If you sow violence into the life of another person, nine times out of ten you are going to get violence back. On the other hand, if you are loving, respectful and forgiving towards them, they are much likely to respond in kind. That's just the way God engineered things.9 times out of ten? Hahaha... so we blow off that "ONE" because of a personal feeling or a personal opinion? It's feelings and opinion that gets in the way of God doing His will through people.



I do agree that God did use wars under the old covenant to bring about His purposes, but I would also be quick to add, as I have stated elsewhere, that we who are Christians are not under the old covenant anymore, and are called to a higher standard. Is this standard higher because God changed and demands a higher standard. Or has man applied their feelings and opinions to what God has been steadfast in (He don't change) and we apply our feelings and opinion to God's Word and make it mean what we want it to mean???


That means that it would be wrong of us to engage in warfare. This can only be your opinion because the moment that Jesus steps back on this earth... His first priority will be to slaughter all humans who sided with satan and took the mark.

So this Biblical truth does not align with your feelings or opinion... so do you accept God's Word or not?



After all, Christians are NOT pre-Incarnation Israel. We are called to "pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14, NASB) and "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." (Romans 12:18, NASB) And, the Greek word translated as "be at peace" in the verse I just quoted is the same one translated as "peacemakers" in Matthew 5:9. So, making peace is meant to be an active process that we are to work at by forgiving those who have offended us and loving them unconditionally, just like God does, no matter what the consequences to ourselves might be. As I also stated elsewhere, it's not our job to protect or defend ourselves. That's God's job, as He is the only one qualified to do it properly and perfectly. How would you like it if, in the middle of your regular dentist visit, a total stranger off the street, with no dental training whatsoever, pushed the dental hygienist aside and began poking random instruments into your mouth? You wouldn't, would you. That is because he wasn't qualified to do what he was trying to do. The same thing happens when we try to defend ourselves, because, as I said, only the Lord is qualified to do it the right way. We only have ourselves to blame for the negative consequences if we try to do it ourselves.You are convincing and/or someone convinced you but this alignment of understanding doesn't aline with ALL of scripture.



Besides all that, Christians are called to fight a spiritual war with spiritual weapons, not a physical one with physical weapons. That is because our true enemy is Satan and his fellow fallen angels, not the people who come against us, no matter how evil they may seem. They are human beings, just like us, who need Jesus just as badly as we did before we were saved. Unfortunately, Satan uses them to distract and confuse us as to the true nature of our warfare. Christians fighting in the military, then, can be likened to Dan Marino in his prime being given wrong directions and showing up at a high school soccer game, ready to play a game of football. Wrong equipment, wrong opponent, wrong battlefield. And, as I've also stated elsewhere, Satan can't be defeated with physical weapons because he is a fallen angel and not a human being, and the more we try to do so, the more we fall into his trap of feeding into the downward spiral of revenge, vengeance and violence. Only through prayer, Bible study, worship, forgiveness and reconciliation can that cycle be broken, Satan be defeated, and true healing and restoration begin.Hooah... I am a member of a deliverance ministry and have cast demons out of people... I am well aware of the spiritual battle that the Body fo Christ is waging against satan as well.



As far as when Jesus returns, He will be casting a whole lot of people into the lake of fire, that is for sure. But, as I've also mentioned elsewhere, that is His unique prerogative as Judge of the universe. No Christian, or any other human being for that matter, has that right. Since God is the Creator of the universe, He is uniquely qualified to give life and to take it away as He sees fit. Nowhere in the Bible do I see any indication that Christians are called to do the latter. Technically, we can't even do the former, since, even though He works through human parents to conceive a baby, they are not the ones who create it. God is. They are just the instruments He uses to bring that child into the world. We are simply called to preach the gospel and forgive those who sin against us. Pretty simple and straightforward, huh?Sure except you fail to acknowledge that before He judges the nations/people for that final time... He'll slaughter them all first.



That's about it for now. I hope that helps clear up why I believe what I do. Feel free to ask me any questions if anything is unclear, or if you want further elaboration. God bless, and have a great day in the Lord!I don't have any questions.

thethirdtuttle
Apr 1st 2011, 12:34 AM
The textual evidence is based on v4. If God plans to execute wrath upon an evil doer... He has not only authorized government but uses them and those who are Minister's of God to be the instruments that He will use. Verse 1 of this scripture DOES establish that they are operating under His authority. Now, the question of questions... are they "always"??? I will have to say... not always. When some raise up and utilize their authority in wrong ways, against God's will and these governments are abusing their auhtority... then God does use those at His disposal to destroy those doing evil.

To be honest, I don't see it. I see a description of the governing authorities, and what they are called to do, by God, to reward good and punish evil. The thing is, I don't see anything in that verse, or even in the whole passage you quoted in your earlier post, that would indicate they are called to do so outside their borders or to citizens of another part of the world. I will maintain that I think that is a preconceived notion that you are bringing to the text, when it isn't actually there at all. Maybe you could spell it out for me so I can see it, if it is in fact there?


You are welcomed to this opinion.

Thank you. I appreciate that.


This is my opinion based on scritpure and the fact of being led by God in such a way as a soldier.

Just as my opinion is based on Scripture and the fact of being led by God in such a way as a man of peace.


9 times out of ten? Hahaha... so we blow off that "ONE" because of a personal feeling or a personal opinion? It's feelings and opinion that gets in the way of God doing His will through people.

Maybe 9 times out of 10 was not fully accurate, but I think my underlying point is still valid. And, no, my convictions on this issue are NOT based on personal opinions or feelings, despite what you might think. I will agree with the sentence I bolded, however.


Is this standard higher because God changed and demands a higher standard. Or has man applied their feelings and opinions to what God has been steadfast in (He don't change) and we apply our feelings and opinion to God's Word and make it mean what we want it to mean???

The more I think about it, the more I realize Jesus didn't call us to a higher standard, per se. Instead, He came to explain and live out what the standard was all along, in order to help correct the Israelite's misunderstandings of and misconceptions about the standard. So, I wish to thank you for helping me to refine my thinking regarding this issue.


This can only be your opinion because the moment that Jesus steps back on this earth... His first priority will be to slaughter all humans who sided with satan and took the mark.

Is that the best you can do? That just because Jesus is going to do something in the future, that means Christians are automatically called to do it, as well? Sorry, but that just isn't logical, much less Scriptural. After all, how many Christians do you know can control the weather, or keep the universe from flying apart at the seams, or a myriad of other things that fall uniquely into God's purview? Just because Jesus is going to do something in the future, doesn't mean we are called to do it now. Instead, we are called to live the way He did while He was on this earth. That is Scriptural. I leave what is His to Him alone.


So this Biblical truth does not align with your feelings or opinion... so do you accept God's Word or not?

I accept God's Word fine. What I don't accept is your militaristic/martial/skewed interpretation and understanding of it. As I have said before, my convictions on this issue are not just personal opinion or feeling, despite what you might think. I have thought long and hard about this issue, have weighed the arguments both pro and con, and have examined the relevant Scriptures. Could I be wrong? Sure. Do I have all the answers or have God all figured out, whatever in the world that means? Absolutely not. The thing is, the longer I walk with the Lord, and the more I study all of the Scriptures, the more convinced I become deep down in my spirit that I am correct. Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not saying this in an arrogant, haughty or prideful way. I just know that I know that I know that God has led me to where I am today. All I do is come to the Scriptures with simple child-like faith, and ask God to help me to see His Word the way it is meant to be understood, without any of my own biases or preconceived notions getting in the way. All I'm asking is that you do the same. As well as be humble enough to admit that you might actually be wrong about this. Are you willing to do that? I know I am. I want us to be able to work through these things together, so that God is glorified and honored by our seeking of truth and His will, whatever that might look like.


You are convincing and/or someone convinced you but this alignment of understanding doesn't aline with ALL of scripture.

How? Spell it out for me so I can understand it clearly and fully. I am an intelligent guy, but every once in a while I need help.


Hooah... I am a member of a deliverance ministry and have cast demons out of people... I am well aware of the spiritual battle that the Body fo Christ is waging against satan as well.

Praise the Lord! That is awesome, brother! Keep up the good work. I don't see how you can then come to the conclusion that physical warfare can accomplish the same things as spiritual warfare. It can't. And, in fact, as I've already said, it is not the kind of war we are called to wage, despite what you may have been taught.


Sure except you fail to acknowledge that before He judges the nations/people for that final time... He'll slaughter them all first.

I already addressed this earlier in this post, so I won't rewrite what I already said.


I don't have any questions.

Okay. Fair enough.

God bless, and have a great night in the Lord!

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

Caleb
Apr 4th 2011, 12:31 AM
Like I said... when He returns He'll do all the killing Himself. Ya just have to read the whole Bible in context from page 1 to the last page to understand who Jesus IS... eternally.

Jesus IS not only as He WAS during a 3 year ministry while He was in the flesh. He's much more and to understand this... all the Bible must be read, not just 4 Gospels.

That is when He returns, but in the meantime we are called to follow the example that he left us. We are to follow His footsteps.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Jesus said that His Kingdom was no longer of this world

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Mat 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
So, who's is your Master?
Who do you follow?

Do you belong His Kingdom (not of this world) or do you belong Caesars kingdom?

Caleb
Apr 4th 2011, 12:47 AM
Negative... I showed you the scriptures in the Bible from the NT that war and police forces will be used BY God to bring His wrath to the evil doer. Do you accept these scriptures?

Or you will not accept those scriptures, and we will have to listen to you keep saying stuff like this second quote?

At least you are right about something, it is just "your" opinion but it's not based on all of scripture in full context of the Bible and just who Jesus IS!

Those goverments are for God's dealing with the world. They don't have Christ so they are not under grace. We are told to obey the governments not join them.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.