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Firstfruits
Jun 17th 2011, 07:09 PM
Wow. No grace there.

Because the scriptures say we must maintain good works, why does that mean no Grace?

Firstfruits

percho
Jun 17th 2011, 07:13 PM
With regards to the following do we already have salvation or is it a promise.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Firstfruits

Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. We are heirs not inheritors. One of the very reasons we are currently not born again. Begotten of the Spirit but not yet fit for inheritance. That requires resurrection/instant change from corruptible to incorruptible and from mortal to immortal in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. Salvation takes place at completion.

Salvation from the death.

Firstfruits
Jun 17th 2011, 07:20 PM
Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. We are heirs not inheritors. One of the very reasons we are currently not born again. Begotten of the Spirit but not yet fit for inheritance. That requires resurrection/instant change from corruptible to incorruptible and from mortal to immortal in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. Salvation takes place at completion.

We are heirs waiting to inherit.

Mt 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jun 17th 2011, 07:26 PM
Because the scriptures say we must maintain good works, why does that mean no Grace?

FirstfruitsWhile you perhaps wouldn't say it, your post reveals that you believe we merit salvation.

Firstfruits
Jun 17th 2011, 07:32 PM
While you perhaps wouldn't say it, your post reveals that you believe we merit salvation.

Does the following not mean to do that which is good?

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jun 17th 2011, 07:42 PM
Does the following not mean to do that which is good?

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

FirstfruitsAddress the point, then we will talk -- maybe.

Firstfruits
Jun 17th 2011, 08:29 PM
Address the point, then we will talk -- maybe.

I believe that we need to walk as Jesus walked, to live as he lived in truth and holiness, the opposite to that is to do that which is against the will of God. This is what Jesus requires.

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

Does that answer your question?

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jun 17th 2011, 11:25 PM
I believe that we need to walk as Jesus walked, to live as he lived in truth and holiness, the opposite to that is to do that which is against the will of God. This is what Jesus requires.

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

Does that answer your question?

FirstfruitsThis goes without saying, but you make this a condition of salvation, and I think you need to support this idea from scripture.

KornShell
Jun 18th 2011, 03:51 AM
Abiding in his word, his love, his law, is all the same. It is all about being in Christ and continuing to do as he has commanded.

When God gave his commandments for Israel to keep, it was not a one off thing, it was to be observed at all times. If you keep the sabbath this week and choose not to do the same the following week then you are not abiding or keeping Gods commandment.

FirstfruitsJesus (the true vine) said 'abide' to his disciples who where in the current dried up and desolate vine (Israel). He told them he was going away and would send another helper. His point was to keep believing in him and not give in to persecution and go back to Judaism. Now, you can apply the principle to believers today, but what you cannot do, I repeat, cannot do, is turn 'abide' into some spiritual term that means if you do not maintain good works for one week you are not abiding. You have mangled the text.

Firstfruits
Jun 18th 2011, 11:36 AM
This goes without saying, but you make this a condition of salvation, and I think you need to support this idea from scripture.

Is that not what this scripture is saying?

1 Jn 2:6 He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 18th 2011, 11:42 AM
Jesus (the true vine) said 'abide' to his disciples who where in the current dried up and desolate vine (Israel). He told them he was going away and would send another helper. His point was to keep believing in him and not give in to persecution and go back to Judaism. Now, you can apply the principle to believers today, but what you cannot do, I repeat, cannot do, is turn 'abide' into some spiritual term that means if you do not maintain good works for one week you are not abiding. You have mangled the text.

If you are not maintaining good works, then what works are you doing?

Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Firstfruits

KornShell
Jun 18th 2011, 11:14 PM
If you are not maintaining good works, then what works are you doing?

Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

FirstfruitsWhy are you asking another question irrelevant to the point? Your definition of maintaining good works mandates a time frame of one week. Since you do not have any scripture to back up that definition you need to find another. One that scripture supports. The epistle you got that from uses "good works" four times defining the term for you. Does it give a time frame of one week or any at all? Does it say that those who are not yet devoted to good works are not saved? Or is he telling the pastor to teach the gospel so that those that have believed the gospel would do good works because of what Christ has done for them? The contrast is between a believer and an heretic. The heretics fruit is unprofitable and vain and the believers is not. Know them by their fruit is the point here. It has absolutely nothing to do with how long, one day, 3 days, one week, 3 months.

ProjectPeter
Jun 19th 2011, 12:22 AM
Good, and the same is true in Ephesians, yes?

In 2Peter, "entrance......into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord" is for those that have these things in them so that these things make them fruitful and they have given diligence to their calling. Not so for "He that lacks theses things". We are continually cleansed if we walk in the light, acknowledging (confess) our sin if or when we sin. Not because we ask for forgiveness, but because we walk in the light and do not hid in darkness. Confess does not mean ask. "He that lacks these things" is blind, not having light, and therefore is not walking in light but darkness. He is no longer being cleansed by a walk the light.Actually it is for those that are progressing in these things. Those things being added to your faith.... virtue, to that knowledge, to that self-control, to that perseverance, to that godliness, to that brotherly kindness, and to that love. Nothing much to do with what you are saying at all.

KornShell
Jun 19th 2011, 04:16 AM
Actually it is for those that are progressing in these things. Those things being added to your faith.... virtue, to that knowledge, to that self-control, to that perseverance, to that godliness, to that brotherly kindness, and to that love. Nothing much to do with what you are saying at all.I agree! Those progressing are partaking of the divine nature by grace through faith in the knowledge of him. That's exactly what it says.

You can't progress in these things if you don't already possess these things in Christ. The things were given to us in Christ by grace (vs 2-4). They are part of the divine nature (v4) to be experience by faith (v5). In Christ, every believer has access to these things by grace, through the knowledge of what Christ has given us, and the Spirit and new creature. Someone that becomes forgetful of the cleansing of his former sins because he did not access these things by grace, through faith in the knowledge of what Christ has given us, by the Spirit and new creature, is apostate, and lacks these things because he did not give all diligence to add to his faith what Christ made available to him so he is no longer in Christ. He that has not, even what he has will be taken away. The warning of the epistle. Peter is just saying what Jesus did.

If it were true that we do not have these these at all, then we are all blind, cannot see afar off, and have forgotten we were cleansed of our former sin until we possess all of these things, which is an absurdity. No grace in that. No gospel in that. Not what the author is saying.

One walk is in light the other is in darkness. How could it be about anything else?

Firstfruits
Jun 19th 2011, 07:47 AM
Why are you asking another question irrelevant to the point? Your definition of maintaining good works mandates a time frame of one week. Since you do not have any scripture to back up that definition you need to find another. One that scripture supports. The epistle you got that from uses "good works" four times defining the term for you. Does it give a time frame of one week or any at all? Does it say that those who are not yet devoted to good works are not saved? Or is he telling the pastor to teach the gospel so that those that have believed the gospel would do good works because of what Christ has done for them? The contrast is between a believer and an heretic. The heretics fruit is unprofitable and vain and the believers is not. Know them by their fruit is the point here. It has absolutely nothing to do with how long, one day, 3 days, one week, 3 months.

Men will not know that you belong to God unless what you do identifies you as being Gods son.

Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

1 Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

It is not enough to say "I love you".

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jun 19th 2011, 02:18 PM
I agree! Those progressing are partaking of the divine nature by grace through faith in the knowledge of him. That's exactly what it says.

You can't progress in these things if you don't already possess these things in Christ. The things were given to us in Christ by grace (vs 2-4). They are part of the divine nature (v4) to be experience by faith (v5). In Christ, every believer has access to these things by grace, through the knowledge of what Christ has given us, and the Spirit and new creature. Someone that becomes forgetful of the cleansing of his former sins because he did not access these things by grace, through faith in the knowledge of what Christ has given us, by the Spirit and new creature, is apostate, and lacks these things because he did not give all diligence to add to his faith what Christ made available to him so he is no longer in Christ. He that has not, even what he has will be taken away. The warning of the epistle. Peter is just saying what Jesus did.

If it were true that we do not have these these at all, then we are all blind, cannot see afar off, and have forgotten we were cleansed of our former sin until we possess all of these things, which is an absurdity. No grace in that. No gospel in that. Not what the author is saying.

One walk is in light the other is in darkness. How could it be about anything else?We don't have them in the sense that they are automatically something we do. They are to be added to our faith. You aren't born again and POOF!!! There it is! God certainly does supply these traits but we're to add the traits. One addition is contingent upon the other as well. You cannot have self-control without knowledge of what exactly you are supposed to control with self. You cannot have perseverance without the self-control and you cannot have the godliness without the self-control and the perseverance. Each builds from the other. To say that we all "poof" have it means in fact that we can go from faith to agape from the day we are born again. That's what has gotten folks into tons of trouble because it doesn't work that way... if it did we'd have no need for maturity because we'd be born (again) that way. I know it might sound like we're just picking at words here and I want to guard against that because we well may be trying to say the same thing... so just trying to take it a bit further to see. Supplied to all of us YES. We must utilize that which God has supplied. Supplied to us doesn't mean that it is automatically used because "poof" it is there. We don't use that which is supplied, we are indeed blind and shortsighted.

KornShell
Jun 19th 2011, 04:05 PM
Men will not know that you belong to God unless what you do identifies you as being Gods son.

Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

1 Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

It is not enough to say "I love you".

FirstfruitsI agree. I said "Know them by their fruit is the point here.". Where we disagree is your definition of abide in me and maintain good works. You suggest if a believer goes one week without a good work, which you have not defined (Titus 3 does), they are not in Christ, have not maintained good works, are not a believer, and are lost. That a believer honors God with their mouth but their heart is far from him if they go one week without a good work, which you have not defined (Titus 3 does). Do you even think it possible? If so, how so? Maybe you should define "good works"? You should use the context (Titus 3). Does a believer go all week doing the things in Titus 3:2-3? No!

Titus 3 contrasts a believer to an heretic. The heretics is know to have fruit that is unprofitable and vain, the believer is know to have good works. The word 'maintain' means 'rule' and 'over'. The ESV says 'learn to devote themselves to good works'. The YLT says 'thoughtful to be' and 'learn to be' 'leading in good works'. Again, know them by their fruit.

John 15 says 'every branch that bears not fruit', 'every branch that bears fruit', with no time contraint. In fact, Jesus said one that does not abide in him 'is cast forth as a branch and is withered' (v6). A believer that has fruit is not cast forth as a branch and is not withered. I don't see a one week time contraint here, or anywhere for that matter. You'll have to show me where these two passages suggest one week as you do.

KornShell
Jun 19th 2011, 04:07 PM
We don't have them in the sense that they are automatically something we do. They are to be added to our faith. You aren't born again and POOF!!! There it is! God certainly does supply these traits but we're to add the traits. One addition is contingent upon the other as well. You cannot have self-control without knowledge of what exactly you are supposed to control with self. You cannot have perseverance without the self-control and you cannot have the godliness without the self-control and the perseverance. Each builds from the other. To say that we all "poof" have it means in fact that we can go from faith to agape from the day we are born again. That's what has gotten folks into tons of trouble because it doesn't work that way... if it did we'd have no need for maturity because we'd be born (again) that way. I know it might sound like we're just picking at words here and I want to guard against that because we well may be trying to say the same thing... so just trying to take it a bit further to see. Supplied to all of us YES. We must utilize that which God has supplied. Supplied to us doesn't mean that it is automatically used because "poof" it is there. We don't use that which is supplied, we are indeed blind and shortsighted.I think we are mostly saying the same thing but not quite. I am not taking away growth and maturity, which Paul also wrote of his growth, maturity, and revelation of the mystery of Christ. I am not saying it is automatic and neither did Peter or Paul. I said they are experience by grace through faith in the knowledge of what Christ has given us, just as Peter and Paul.

Peter said we've been 'given all things to be partakers of his divine nature and have fruit in Christ'.
Paul said 'seated in heavenly places in Christ with exceeding riches of his grace unto good works in Christ'.
Peter said, if you give all diligence to this grace and knowledge you will have fruit.
Paul said, just as you received Christ by faith, walk by faith in the knowledge of the mystery of Christ.

Everyone that is born again experiences these things to some degree simply because they are a new creature. Common sense. If they don't, they were not born again. That's just a fact. Was there really no immediate change in you? Is there really no immediate change in your converts? There was in me and is in my converts. It's just a start though. We have to continue to walk in him and what he has given us. We have to learn of him. It's easy for a sinner to hear they've been given all things and are complete in him, to have their eyes enlightened in the knowledge of him, and for them to walk in sanctification by faith in all Christ has done for them, than it is for the believer that is already walking down a longer harder road of sanctification by religiosity. Both Peter and Paul say it's by focusing on Jesus and believing he has done it all for you already. Give diligence to him and the things given you and you will be fruitful.

So the question is, how do you add these things to your faith?

Firstfruits
Jun 19th 2011, 04:36 PM
I agree. I said "Know them by their fruit is the point here.". Where we disagree is your definition of abide in me and maintain good works. You suggest if a believer goes one week without a good work, which you have not defined (Titus 3 does), they are not in Christ, have not maintained good works, are not a believer, and are lost. That a believer honors God with their mouth but their heart is far from him if they go one week without a good work, which you have not defined (Titus 3 does). Do you even think it possible? If so, how so? Maybe you should define "good works"? You should use the context (Titus 3). Does a believer go all week doing the things in Titus 3:2-3? No!

Titus 3 contrasts a believer to an heretic. The heretics is know to have fruit that is unprofitable and vain, the believer is know to have good works. The word 'maintain' means 'rule' and 'over'. The ESV says 'learn to devote themselves to good works'. The YLT says 'thoughtful to be' and 'learn to be' 'leading in good works'. Again, know them by their fruit.

John 15 says 'every branch that bears not fruit', 'every branch that bears fruit', with no time contraint. In fact, Jesus said one that does not abide in him 'is cast forth as a branch and is withered' (v6). A believer that has fruit is not cast forth as a branch and is not withered. I don't see a one week time contraint here, or anywhere for that matter. You'll have to show me where these two passages suggest one week as you do.

I do not believe that if we go without doing a good work according to what the scripture says it means knowing that it is to help your brother if the is a need and you are able to help.

So if that is how you see it then we agree.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 19th 2011, 05:12 PM
Those of the world seem to believe that doing good works is all it takes but the following scripture reminds us that we must also keep ourselve unspotted from the world.

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Firstfruits

jpoole21
Jun 19th 2011, 05:22 PM
I have always viewed the "works" as the RESULT of Christ being in you. Not that you do works to make yourself somehow "worthy" of Christ. Salvation is a GIFT to be received. it's not something you can earn or pay for.

Fruit comes forth when the Lord works through you. I could do all the self-righteous things I want, but not a single one of them will EVER "earn" me salvation.

Firstfruits
Jun 19th 2011, 05:39 PM
I have always viewed the "works" as the RESULT of Christ being in you. Not that you do works to make yourself somehow "worthy" of Christ. Salvation is a GIFT to be received. it's not something you can earn or pay for.

Fruit comes forth when the Lord works through you. I could do all the self-righteous things I want, but not a single one of them will EVER "earn" me salvation.

According to the following neglecting to do what we are able to do will cause us to be lost.

Mt 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mt 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Mt 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Those that do as they are able will be rewarded with the kingdom of God.

Firstfruits

jpoole21
Jun 19th 2011, 06:02 PM
According to the following neglecting to do what we are able to do will cause us to be lost.

Mt 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mt 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Mt 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Those that do as they are able will be rewarded with the kingdom of God.

Firstfruits

You're "able" to leave your computer right now and go witness on a street corner. You're "able" to do it far more often than you do. You're probably "able" to give more money to the poor and needy than you actually do. You're neglecting to do it so I guess you're lost.

Firstfruits
Jun 19th 2011, 06:19 PM
You're "able" to leave your computer right now and go witness on a street corner. You're "able" to do it far more often than you do. You're probably "able" to give more money to the poor and needy than you actually do. You're neglecting to do it so I guess you're lost.

We are not expected to heal the world.

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed And filled; notwithstAnding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Do what you can.

1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Firstfruits

KornShell
Jun 19th 2011, 07:00 PM
I do not believe that if we go without doing a good work according to what the scripture says it means knowing that it is to help your brother if the is a need and you are able to help.

So if that is how you see it then we agree.

FirstfruitsIt looks like two or three partial sentences mixed together or something. Like you didn't finish your point? Can you say it again please?

Firstfruits
Jun 19th 2011, 07:21 PM
It looks like two or three partial sentences mixed together or something. Like you didn't finish your point? Can you say it again please?

We must be ready and willing to help a brother in need, as we are able, we may not be presented with doing it every day. We must not forget the second part which is to keep ourselves unspotted from the world.

Is that clearer?

firstfruits

KornShell
Jun 19th 2011, 08:24 PM
We must be ready and willing to help a brother in need, as we are able, we may not be presented with doing it every day. We must not forget the second part which is to keep ourselves unspotted from the world.

Is that clearer?

firstfruitsYes, thanks, but who has said differently and how does it relate? Since you've added another term, what does 'unspotted from the world' mean to you, according to scripture? You have presented

abide in me
maintain good works
unspotted from the world

For the first two you gave a time frame of one week. Your example was, to keep the sabbath one week but not the next was not maintaining good works and abiding in Christ. Would it be safe to add to your list that this individual was also spotted by the world because he did not keep the sabbath one week?

Butch5
Jun 20th 2011, 03:52 AM
You're "able" to leave your computer right now and go witness on a street corner. You're "able" to do it far more often than you do. You're probably "able" to give more money to the poor and needy than you actually do. You're neglecting to do it so I guess you're lost.

That doesn't follow.

Firstfruits
Jun 20th 2011, 01:11 PM
Yes, thanks, but who has said differently and how does it relate? Since you've added another term, what does 'unspotted from the world' mean to you, according to scripture? You have presented

abide in me
maintain good works
unspotted from the world

For the first two you gave a time frame of one week. Your example was, to keep the sabbath one week but not the next was not maintaining good works and abiding in Christ. Would it be safe to add to your list that this individual was also spotted by the world because he did not keep the sabbath one week?

I have not given a time frame of one week, I was mearly refering to the fact that we can only help according to our means. if you are paid weekly you can only give according to what you have at that time.

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 21st 2011, 11:56 AM
If we do not love as we are commanded to, it is written that we do not know God.

1 Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1 Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

1 Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Loving as he loved is Gods requirement.

Firstfruits

1 John 4:7-8 sum it right up. everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God. Love is the evidence that we have been born again and know God, not the cause. None of these passages in 1 John that you cited turn loving one another into an "additional requirement" for salvation.

We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5). We don't conjure up this love through our flesh apart from God.

So once again, does John 3:16 say that whosoever believes in Him "and loves the brethren" shall not perish but have eternal life? No. Does Ephesians 2:8 say, For by grace, you have been saved through faith "and loving the brethren?" No. What then is the requirement for salvation? FAITH. The demonstrative evidence that one has already been saved through faith (loving God and one another) does not equate to requirement for salvation.

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 12:08 PM
1 John 4:7-8 sum it right up. everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God. Love is the evidence that we have been born again and know God, not the cause. None of these passages in 1 John that you cited turn loving one another into an "additional requirement" for salvation.

We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5). We don't conjure up this love through our flesh apart from God.

So once again, does John 3:16 say that whosoever believes in Him "and loves the brethren" shall not perish but have eternal life? No. Does Ephesians 2:8 say, For by grace, you have been saved through faith "and loving the brethren?" No. What then is the requirement for salvation? FAITH. The demonstrative evidence that one has already been saved through faith (loving God and one another) does not equate to requirement for salvation.

Should we therefore not obey what God has commanded?

1 Jn 4:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Can we love God without loving our brother as He has commanded?

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 21st 2011, 12:16 PM
Dan, your own choice of words betrays you. You say saving faith, saving indicates an on going action. How can one be saved, past tense, if saving is an on going action?

My own choice words do not betray me. Saving faith believes til death because it's genuine saving faith, not to become genuine saving faith. We already have been saved (past tense) through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Not
placed on probation to hopefully be saved at death. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1) and those He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30). If you are not glorified one day it's because you were never justified. Saving faith continues to trust in Christ as the only means of our salvation and is not some temporary superficial belief which has no root.

So what is this ongoing action that you must accomplish to help Jesus save you since you obviously don't trust in CHRIST ALONE for salvation? You need to ask Paul your question. "How can one be saved, past tense, if saving is an on going action?" He said that we have been saved (past tense) through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Paul did not say that we will hopefully some day be saved through faith.

mailmandan
Jun 21st 2011, 12:30 PM
Should we therefore not obey what God has commanded?

1 Jn 4:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Can we love God without loving our brother as He has commanded?

Firstfruits

Who said anything about not obeying what God has commanded? You are confusing what God has commanded us to do to become saved (Ephesians 2:8) with what God has commanded us to do after we are saved (1 John 4:21). John already said in 1 John 4:7-8 that everyone who loves is born of God and knows God and he who does not love does not know God. John is not giving us an additional requirement for salvation here in 1 John 4:21.

We cannot love God without loving our brother, but even more important, we cannot love God or our brother until we first become born of God and know God. Attempting to accomplish loving God and our brother without first becoming born of God is futile.

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 01:35 PM
Who said anything about not obeying what God has commanded? You are confusing what God has commanded us to do to become saved (Ephesians 2:8) with what God has commanded us to do after we are saved (1 John 4:21). John already said in 1 John 4:7-8 that everyone who loves is born of God and knows God and he who does not love does not know God. John is not giving us an additional requirement for salvation here in 1 John 4:21.

We cannot love God without loving our brother, but even more important, we cannot love God or our brother until we first become born of God and know God. Attempting to accomplish loving God and our brother without first becoming born of God is futile.

Jesus said that only those that do the will of the Father will inherit the kingdom of God.

This is the will of God:

1 Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That is Gods commandment and not to do as he has commanded will result in not entering the kingdom of Heaven.

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 21st 2011, 04:20 PM
Jesus said that only those that do the will of the Father will inherit the kingdom of God.

This is the will of God:

1 Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That is Gods commandment and not to do as he has commanded will result in not entering the kingdom of Heaven.

Firstfruits

For someone to "love God and his brother" is God's commandment for those who are born of God and know God, not a requisite for salvation. Apart from saving faith in Christ, all the attempted efforts for someone to love God and his brother is futile. Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God (1 John 4:7) and he who does not love does not know God. (1 John 4:8).

1 John 4:21 does not state that God's will for us to receive eternal life is based on someone's best efforts to love God and his brother. You are reading your own preconceived ideas into this verse. Once again, you are confusing God's will for us to become saved (John 6:40) with God's will for us after we are saved through faith (1 John 4:21). We are saved for good works not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

In Matthew 7:21, what does Jesus mean by the will of the Father? Your view seems to suggest that by the expression "the will of My Father" Jesus meant a life of complete obedience to all that the Father has commanded. Thus those who do the will of the Father would be people who live absolute godly, holy lives. The problem with that interpretation is that one cannot be said to have done the will of the Father (in that sense) unless he does it completely, 100%. Are you perfect? In John 6:40, we see "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up
at the last day."

Believing in Christ for salvation is God's will for us to receive eternal life and to not do as He has commanded here will result in not entering the kingdom of Heaven. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already... (John 3:18). Do you BELIEVE IN HIM for salvation? It sounds obvious to me that you "believe in your works for salvation." What are you really trusting in to save you?

jpoole21
Jun 21st 2011, 06:18 PM
For someone to "love God and his brother" is God's commandment for those who are born of God and know God, not a requisite for salvation. Apart from saving faith in Christ, all the attempted efforts for someone to love God and his brother is futile. Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God (1 John 4:7) and he who does not love does not know God. (1 John 4:8).

1 John 4:21 does not state that God's will for us to receive eternal life is based on someone's best efforts to love God and his brother. You are reading your own preconceived ideas into this verse. Once again, you are confusing God's will for us to become saved (John 6:40) with God's will for us after we are saved through faith (1 John 4:21). We are saved for good works not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

In Matthew 7:21, what does Jesus mean by the will of the Father? Your view seems to suggest that by the expression "the will of My Father" Jesus meant a life of complete obedience to all that the Father has commanded. Thus those who do the will of the Father would be people who live absolute godly, holy lives. The problem with that interpretation is that one cannot be said to have done the will of the Father (in that sense) unless he does it completely, 100%. Are you perfect? In John 6:40, we see "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up
at the last day."

Believing in Christ for salvation is God's will for us to receive eternal life and to not do as He has commanded here will result in not entering the kingdom of Heaven. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already... (John 3:18). Do you BELIEVE IN HIM for salvation? It sounds obvious to me that you "believe in your works for salvation." What are you really trusting in to save you?

Exactly on point.

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 06:31 PM
For someone to "love God and his brother" is God's commandment for those who are born of God and know God, not a requisite for salvation. Apart from saving faith in Christ, all the attempted efforts for someone to love God and his brother is futile. Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God (1 John 4:7) and he who does not love does not know God. (1 John 4:8).

1 John 4:21 does not state that God's will for us to receive eternal life is based on someone's best efforts to love God and his brother. You are reading your own preconceived ideas into this verse. Once again, you are confusing God's will for us to become saved (John 6:40) with God's will for us after we are saved through faith (1 John 4:21). We are saved for good works not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

In Matthew 7:21, what does Jesus mean by the will of the Father? Your view seems to suggest that by the expression "the will of My Father" Jesus meant a life of complete obedience to all that the Father has commanded. Thus those who do the will of the Father would be people who live absolute godly, holy lives. The problem with that interpretation is that one cannot be said to have done the will of the Father (in that sense) unless he does it completely, 100%. Are you perfect? In John 6:40, we see "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up
at the last day."

Believing in Christ for salvation is God's will for us to receive eternal life and to not do as He has commanded here will result in not entering the kingdom of Heaven. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already... (John 3:18). Do you BELIEVE IN HIM for salvation? It sounds obvious to me that you "believe in your works for salvation." What are you really trusting in to save you?

Gods commandment is to be obeyed.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1 Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

By doing this we are dwelling in Him and He is dwelling in us, so is God dwelling in us and us in him not important?

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 21st 2011, 07:03 PM
According to the following neglecting to do what we are able to do will cause us to be lost.

Mt 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mt 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Mt 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Those that do as they are able will be rewarded with the kingdom of God.

Firstfruits

So are we saved by grace through faith, not works? (Ephesians 2:8,9 - Holy Bible) or are we saved by grace after all we can do? (2 Nephi 25:23 - Book of Mormon). Your statement about "neglecting to do what we are able to do will cause us to be lost" sounds very similar to this verse in the Book of Mormon.

After a casual reading of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats (Matthew 25:31-46), it seems that these verses suggest that salvation is the result of good deeds. However, this is clearly not the meaning of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. All Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of Scripture. It is not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Notice verse 37 begins, "Then shall the righteous answer" (emphasis added). It doesn't say, "Then shall the good doers answer." Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there because of/based on their own good deeds, but because Christ imputed His righteousness to them (Romans 4:4-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context of Matthew 25:31, Jesus would stress the good works that are a manifestation of one's "faith by which one receives eternal life."

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness... (Romans 4:5).

ProjectPeter
Jun 21st 2011, 07:30 PM
So are we saved by grace through faith, not works? (Ephesians 2:8,9 - Holy Bible) or are we saved by grace after all we can do? (2 Nephi 25:23 - Book of Mormon). Your statement about "neglecting to do what we are able to do will cause us to be lost" sounds very similar to this verse in the Book of Mormon.

After a casual reading of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats (Matthew 25:31-46), it seems that these verses suggest that salvation is the result of good deeds. However, this is clearly not the meaning of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. All Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of Scripture. It is not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Notice verse 37 begins, "Then shall the righteous answer" (emphasis added). It doesn't say, "Then shall the good doers answer." Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there because of/based on their own good deeds, but because Christ imputed His righteousness to them (Romans 4:4-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context of Matthew 25:31, Jesus would stress the good works that are a manifestation of one's "faith by which one receives eternal life."

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness... (Romans 4:5).this is with my admin hat on. Trying to equate this by quoting from the book of Mormon's is totally void of intellectual honesty. Being honest might be a minor thing to you but rest assured that it is something that all of us are to be if we claim the name of Christ and I don't care what your view is on works. So in a few very simple words... knock that junk off. This trying to smear a person's belief as that of a group of folks such as Mormon's is a sorry tactic and it is a twisted one as well for someone claiming Christianity. It's silly and if you are so mature a believer as to think you can correct someones doctrine then this ought to be Christianity 101 stuff for you.

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 07:39 PM
So are we saved by grace through faith, not works? (Ephesians 2:8,9 - Holy Bible) or are we saved by grace after all we can do? (2 Nephi 25:23 - Book of Mormon). Your statement about "neglecting to do what we are able to do will cause us to be lost" sounds very similar to this verse in the Book of Mormon.

After a casual reading of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats (Matthew 25:31-46), it seems that these verses suggest that salvation is the result of good deeds. However, this is clearly not the meaning of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. All Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of Scripture. It is not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Notice verse 37 begins, "Then shall the righteous answer" (emphasis added). It doesn't say, "Then shall the good doers answer." Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there because of/based on their own good deeds, but because Christ imputed His righteousness to them (Romans 4:4-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context of Matthew 25:31, Jesus would stress the good works that are a manifestation of one's "faith by which one receives eternal life."

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness... (Romans 4:5).

What fruits shall we be known by?

Mt 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 21st 2011, 08:04 PM
Gods commandment is to be obeyed.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1 Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

By doing this we are dwelling in Him and He is dwelling in us, so is God dwelling in us and us in him not important?

Firstfruits

God's commandments here in 1 John are not obeyed by unbelievers. Keeping His commandments is descriptive of those who dwell in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. In 1 John 3:10 we read: In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. So what does that tell you about someone who practices righteousness and loves his brother? ...everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. (1 John 2:29). Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7) There are only two camps here.

Your interpretation of these passages seems to imply that only those who perfectly keep all of God's commandments all of the time will abide in Him and be saved. Does "practice righteousness" equate to sinless perfect obedience to you? You never did answer my questions. Do you BELIEVE (trust, rely) IN HIM for salvation? (John 3:16,18; 6:40; Acts 10:43; 16:31) or do you "believe (trust, rely) in your works for salvation?"

What are you actually trusting in to save you?

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 08:25 PM
God's commandments here in 1 John are not obeyed by unbelievers. Keeping His commandments is descriptive of those who dwell in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. In 1 John 3:10 we read: In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. So what does that tell you about someone who practices righteousness and loves his brother? ...everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. (1 John 2:29). Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7) There are only two camps here.

Your interpretation of these passages seems to imply that only those who perfectly keep all of God's commandments all of the time will abide in Him and be saved. Does "practice righteousness" equate to sinless perfect obedience to you? You never did answer my questions. Do you BELIEVE (trust, rely) IN HIM for salvation? (John 3:16,18; 6:40; Acts 10:43; 16:31) or do you "believe (trust, rely) in your works for salvation?"

What are you actually trusting in to save you?

Being obedient to Gods commandments.

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 21st 2011, 08:38 PM
this is with my admin hat on. Trying to equate this by quoting from the book of Mormon's is totally void of intellectual honesty. Being honest might be a minor thing to you but rest assured that it is something that all of us are to be if we claim the name of Christ and I don't care what your view is on works. So in a few very simple words... knock that junk off. This trying to smear a person's belief as that of a group of folks such as Mormon's is a sorry tactic and it is a twisted one as well for someone claiming Christianity. It's silly and if you are so mature a believer as to think you can correct someones doctrine then this ought to be Christianity 101 stuff for you.

I quoted that verse from the Book of Mormon because "after all we can do" is what it sounded like he was saying in his previous statement. I asked him a simple question and was not trying to be dishonest. I was not trying to smear his name and I did not call him a Mormon. I'm trying to get to the heart of what he believes. If Firstfruits feels the same way that you do about this then I will gladly apologize to him. My intentions were not as you claim so don't try to smear my name over this.

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 08:45 PM
I quoted that verse from the Book of Mormon because "after all we can do" is what it sounded like he was saying in his previous statement. I asked him a simple question and was not trying to be dishonest. I was not trying to smear his name and I did not call him a Mormon. I'm trying to get to the heart of what he believes. If Firstfruits feels the same way that you do about this then I will gladly apologize to him. My intentions were not as you claim so don't try to smear my name over this.

No offence taken, I still love you.

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 21st 2011, 08:53 PM
God's commandments here in 1 John are not obeyed by unbelievers. Keeping His commandments is descriptive of those who dwell in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. In 1 John 3:10 we read: In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. So what does that tell you about someone who practices righteousness and loves his brother? ...everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. (1 John 2:29). Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7) There are only two camps here.

Your interpretation of these passages seems to imply that only those who perfectly keep all of God's commandments all of the time will abide in Him and be saved. Does "practice righteousness" equate to sinless perfect obedience to you? You never did answer my questions. Do you BELIEVE (trust, rely) IN HIM for salvation? (John 3:16,18; 6:40; Acts 10:43; 16:31) or do you "believe (trust, rely) in your works for salvation?"

What are you actually trusting in to save you?

Being obedient to Gods commandments.

Firstfruits

So you are not trusting in Christ alone to save you (faith). You are trusting in your best efforts to obey all of God's commandments to save you (works). This answer was obvious to me from your previous statements.

mailmandan
Jun 21st 2011, 08:55 PM
No offence taken, I still love you.

Firstfruits

Praise the Lord! I still love you too.

mailmandan
Jun 21st 2011, 08:59 PM
What fruits shall we be known by?

Mt 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Firstfruits

AMEN! By their fruits you shall KNOW them. Our fruit is the evidence of our salvation, not the cause. Just as fruit that grows on a fruit tree is the evidence of a living tree, not the cause. All Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. Matthew 13:23 - But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 09:02 PM
AMEN! By their fruits you shall KNOW them. Our fruit is the evidence of our salvation, not the cause. Just as fruit that grows on a fruit tree is the evidence of a living tree, not the cause. All Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. Matthew 13:23 - But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

How do men know that we belong to Christ according to Jesus, if by our fruits we shall be known?

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jun 21st 2011, 09:07 PM
I quoted that verse from the Book of Mormon because "after all we can do" is what it sounded like he was saying in his previous statement. I asked him a simple question and was not trying to be dishonest. I was not trying to smear his name and I did not call him a Mormon. I'm trying to get to the heart of what he believes. If Firstfruits feels the same way that you do about this then I will gladly apologize to him. My intentions were not as you claim so don't try to smear my name over this.You can go on about the virgin birth and I could say that you are Catholic and must be because Catholic folk believe that. Nevermind the fact that I know you aren't Catholic... hey... but they believe that same thing. As to what I don't try to do... that was the admin hat on. You have a problem with that then there is the chat to moderator forum where you can make your case if you choose. Point is still the point. When you see someone that has been a member as long as FF has been a member then it is a safe bet that he ain't mormon. He'd of been gone quite some time back were that the case. You've not been around that long but you've been around long enough to know that we're not going to have or allow mormon doctrine to be pushed in Bible Chat. So no matter what you were attempting to do... it was void of intellectual honesty and it is a sorry debate tactic. Period. Don't do that. Period. It's all good if we do such as that. Don't... it's not all good.

jpoole21
Jun 21st 2011, 10:56 PM
You can go on about the virgin birth and I could say that you are Catholic and must be because Catholic folk believe that. Nevermind the fact that I know you aren't Catholic... hey... but they believe that same thing. As to what I don't try to do... that was the admin hat on. You have a problem with that then there is the chat to moderator forum where you can make your case if you choose. Point is still the point. When you see someone that has been a member as long as FF has been a member then it is a safe bet that he ain't mormon. He'd of been gone quite some time back were that the case. You've not been around that long but you've been around long enough to know that we're not going to have or allow mormon doctrine to be pushed in Bible Chat. So no matter what you were attempting to do... it was void of intellectual honesty and it is a sorry debate tactic. Period. Don't do that. Period. It's all good if we do such as that. Don't... it's not all good.

From my view he didn't call FF a Mormon. He compared a works based salvation to what Mormons believe. There is a difference.

Just my opinion.

Peace.

ProjectPeter
Jun 21st 2011, 11:07 PM
From my view he didn't call FF a Mormon. He compared a works based salvation to what Mormons believe. There is a difference.

Just my opinion.

Peace.And again... it is implying a negative trying to paint one's belief as that of whatever religion. I can say the same to you if you believe in the Trinity. That's a Catholic doctrine therefore I can imply that you are following Catholic doctrine if you believe such a belief. Folks do it with Mormon's, Jehovah Witness, and David Koresh often enough in here and it is a silly tactic that ought not be played out from folks claiming Christ as their master when a person knows the person on the other end of the debate isn't any such.

No... he didn't call him a Mormon but he clearly implied his belief was such. It's getting to the same room by going through a back door. I'm tired of seeing the tactic played out.

mailmandan
Jun 22nd 2011, 03:43 AM
You can go on about the virgin birth and I could say that you are Catholic and must be because Catholic folk believe that. Nevermind the fact that I know you aren't Catholic... hey... but they believe that same thing. As to what I don't try to do... that was the admin hat on. You have a problem with that then there is the chat to moderator forum where you can make your case if you choose. Point is still the point. When you see someone that has been a member as long as FF has been a member then it is a safe bet that he ain't mormon. He'd of been gone quite some time back were that the case. You've not been around that long but you've been around long enough to know that we're not going to have or allow mormon doctrine to be pushed in Bible Chat. So no matter what you were attempting to do... it was void of intellectual honesty and it is a sorry debate tactic. Period. Don't do that. Period. It's all good if we do such as that. Don't... it's not all good.

Once again, "grace through faith, not works" vs. "grace after all we can do" was the real issue here. Regardless of whether Mormons, Catholics or certain Protestants teach "grace after all we can do" a works based salvation was the real heart of the issue. In my opinion you are overreacting, but you are entitled to your own opinion.

mailmandan
Jun 22nd 2011, 03:54 AM
From my view he didn't call FF a Mormon. He compared a works based salvation to what Mormons believe. There is a difference.

Just my opinion.

Peace.

There is a difference. Thank you for your opinion.

ProjectPeter
Jun 22nd 2011, 04:46 AM
Once again, "grace through faith, not works" vs. "grace after all we can do" was the real issue here. Regardless of whether Mormons, Catholics or certain Protestants teach "grace after all we can do" a works based salvation was the real heart of the issue. In my opinion you are overreacting, but you are entitled to your own opinion.Overreacting or whatever... as the Admin of the forum let's call it my call to make even if you think it overreaction. It isn't a "Mormon" teaching and bringing in the mormon bible thing into the discussion and trying to draw the comparison... it is intellectually dishonest and were folks from your end of the discussion honest with you about this.. even though they may vehemently disagree with FF... they don't cross that line because they know it isn't that belief that he is espousing any more than one believing the Trinity is Catholic. Don't do it like that... it's not cool. Again... call that my official position. You argue the points just fine according to what you believe without stooping to that sort of silliness. If you have anything further to say on this issue... start a thread in chat to mod's if you're so inclined and I'll affirm this point even further.

Firstfruits
Jun 22nd 2011, 08:30 AM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2703635]

So you are not trusting in Christ alone to save you (faith). You are trusting in your best efforts to obey all of God's commandments to save you (works). This answer was obvious to me from your previous statements.

I am by being obedient to Christs commandments as he said we should.

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

My I ask what is wrong with Keeping/teaching Christs commandment? Would there be much of a problem if we teach obedience to the commandments given by Moses?

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 22nd 2011, 12:23 PM
[QUOTE=mailmandan;2703648]

I am by being obedient to Christs commandments as he said we should.

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

My I ask what is wrong with Keeping/teaching Christs commandment? Would there be much of a problem if we teach obedience to the commandments given by Moses?

Firstfruits

Jesus said that we should obey His commandments, but He didn't say that was the basis for our salvation. Nobody perfectly obeys all of His commandments. Trusting in Christ to save you and trusting in your works to save you is not the same thing. While on the surface the idea of requiring works in addition to faith for salvation may sound noble, but in essence it disqualifies faith. Here's why: We receive eternal salvation by placing our faith (our trust, our reliance) in Jesus Christ as the only means of our salvation. To say that we must add our works is to say that Christ’s finished work of redemption is insufficient to secure our salvation, and what we really mean then, is that we lack the trust and reliance that He alone can eternally save us. This lack of trusting in Christ alone for salvation is the opposite of placing faith in Him for salvation. Our faith must be 100% in Christ for salvation. Not Christ plus something else. Jesus needs no supplements.

In John 14:15, Jesus said, "if you love me keep my commandments," not "if you want to receive eternal life keep my commandments." We are saved by grace through faith, not faith plus keeping His commandments (works). Obeying His commandments is the evidence of our love for the Lord, not the means of our salvation. Believers keep His commandments, because they are saved, not to become saved. Keeping His commandments after we are saved through faith is what we are saved for, not by (Ephesians 2:8-10). So if we do not accomplish A (John 3:16,18,36; 6:40,47,11:25,26) then set out to accomplish B (John 14:21) where does that leave us?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping/teaching Christ's commandments, but if we are teaching them as the basis of our salvation and not teaching salvation through faith in Christ alone, then there is a big problem.

ProjectPeter
Jun 22nd 2011, 12:58 PM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2703913]

Jesus said that we should obey His commandments, but He didn't say that was the basis for our salvation. Nobody perfectly obeys all of His commandments. Trusting in Christ to save you and trusting in your works to save you is not the same thing. While on the surface the idea of requiring works in addition to faith for salvation may sound noble, but in essence it disqualifies faith. Here's why: We receive eternal salvation by placing our faith (our trust, our reliance) in Jesus Christ as the only means of our salvation. To say that we must add our works is to say that Christ’s finished work of redemption is insufficient to secure our salvation, and what we really mean then, is that we lack the trust and reliance that He alone can eternally save us. This lack of trusting in Christ alone for salvation is the opposite of placing faith in Him for salvation. Our faith must be 100% in Christ for salvation. Not Christ plus something else. Jesus needs no supplements.

In John 14:15, Jesus said, "if you love me keep my commandments," not "if you want to receive eternal life keep my commandments." We are saved by grace through faith, not faith plus keeping His commandments (works). Obeying His commandments is the evidence of our love for the Lord, not the means of our salvation. Believers keep His commandments, because they are saved, not to become saved. Keeping His commandments after we are saved through faith is what we are saved for, not by (Ephesians 2:8-10). So if we do not accomplish A (John 3:16,18,36; 6:40,47,11:25,26) then set out to accomplish B (John 14:21) where does that leave us?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping/teaching Christ's commandments, but if we are teaching them as the basis of our salvation and not teaching salvation through faith in Christ alone, then there is a big problem.At least it is "nothing wrong with keeping His commandments"... I mean afterall... we're just talking Jesus and all. No biggie if you don't but if you want to it's cool!

notuptome
Jun 22nd 2011, 01:16 PM
At least it is "nothing wrong with keeping His commandments"... I mean afterall... we're just talking Jesus and all. No biggie if you don't but if you want to it's cool!
What an attitude or is this to be seen as amusing?

Love the Lord God. Love the brethren. Witness to all the world. (love the lost) As opposed to keeping the sabbath and not eating pork or drinking coke/pepsi.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Jun 22nd 2011, 01:51 PM
What an attitude or is this to be seen as amusing?

Love the Lord God. Love the brethren. Witness to all the world. (love the lost) As opposed to keeping the sabbath and not eating pork or drinking coke/pepsi.

For the cause of Christ
RogerSarcastic would be a much better word... to make a point. Got you responding so guess it made the point well. ;)
The intellectual honesty thing applies to you too Roger. You know well I am not promoting keeping the Sabbath and dietary laws or drinking certain things. Yet here you toss that out as if to imply that is my point. It isn't honest Roger... why do you feel so free to do any such.

Firstfruits
Jun 22nd 2011, 03:23 PM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2703913]

Jesus said that we should obey His commandments, but He didn't say that was the basis for our salvation. Nobody perfectly obeys all of His commandments. Trusting in Christ to save you and trusting in your works to save you is not the same thing. While on the surface the idea of requiring works in addition to faith for salvation may sound noble, but in essence it disqualifies faith. Here's why: We receive eternal salvation by placing our faith (our trust, our reliance) in Jesus Christ as the only means of our salvation. To say that we must add our works is to say that Christís finished work of redemption is insufficient to secure our salvation, and what we really mean then, is that we lack the trust and reliance that He alone can eternally save us. This lack of trusting in Christ alone for salvation is the opposite of placing faith in Him for salvation. Our faith must be 100% in Christ for salvation. Not Christ plus something else. Jesus needs no supplements.

In John 14:15, Jesus said, "if you love me keep my commandments," not "if you want to receive eternal life keep my commandments." We are saved by grace through faith, not faith plus keeping His commandments (works). Obeying His commandments is the evidence of our love for the Lord, not the means of our salvation. Believers keep His commandments, because they are saved, not to become saved. Keeping His commandments after we are saved through faith is what we are saved for, not by (Ephesians 2:8-10). So if we do not accomplish A (John 3:16,18,36; 6:40,47,11:25,26) then set out to accomplish B (John 14:21) where does that leave us?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping/teaching Christ's commandments, but if we are teaching them as the basis of our salvation and not teaching salvation through faith in Christ alone, then there is a big problem.

So with regards to the following scriptures, by not doing his will/his commandments you do not believe it will affect you?

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 12:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 22nd 2011, 04:00 PM
[QUOTE=mailmandan;2703955]At least it is "nothing wrong with keeping His commandments"... I mean afterall... we're just talking Jesus and all. No biggie if you don't but if you want to it's cool!

Did I say "no biggie if you don't keep the commandments of Jesus but if you want to it's cool?" That was not my implication at all. Now who is being dishonest? Firstfruits asked me a direct question and I gave him a direct answer. I was not trying to imply, "it's no big deal if you don't keep His commandments" but no matter how hard we try to keep all of His commandments, that is not the basis of our salvation. If we don't place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation, then we are lost no matter what else we try to accomplish. Apart from saving faith in Christ, attempted commandment keeping is futile. That is my main point.

notuptome
Jun 22nd 2011, 04:44 PM
Sarcastic would be a much better word... to make a point. Got you responding so guess it made the point well. ;)
Your point was to be sarcastic? How does that help? I do not see sarcasm as an effective teaching tool especially for a poster or your stature.

The intellectual honesty thing applies to you too Roger. You know well I am not promoting keeping the Sabbath and dietary laws or drinking certain things. Yet here you toss that out as if to imply that is my point. It isn't honest Roger... why do you feel so free to do any such.
I simply drew a contrast between OT law keeping and NT commandments. Those who are made righteous through Gods grace act in righteousness by the presence of Gods Holy Spirit. Let God be true and every man a liar.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ProjectPeter
Jun 22nd 2011, 04:58 PM
Your point was to be sarcastic? How does that help? I do not see sarcasm as an effective teaching tool especially for a poster or your stature.It is a very good teaching tool. Paul used it much better than I but I hope to equal that at least before going on to that eternal place. :) As to what you think on my style... free to think it. I've been me since I have been here and not going to change that because Roger doesn't like it. ;)



I simply drew a contrast between OT law keeping and NT commandments. Those who are made righteous through Gods grace act in righteousness by the presence of Gods Holy Spirit. Let God be true and every man a liar.

Call it what you want Roger... it's clear what it was and has absolutely nothing to do with anything anyone is promoting in this discussion. To toss it up as if that is what is being said (that is what you did) is not honest no matter how you dress it up. Going to be my big thing for a while... there is way to much of this stuff happening from all sides of the arguments.

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 22nd 2011, 06:30 PM
It is a very good teaching tool. Paul used it much better than I but I hope to equal that at least before going on to that eternal place. :) As to what you think on my style... free to think it. I've been me since I have been here and not going to change that because Roger doesn't like it. ;)

Call it what you want Roger... it's clear what it was and has absolutely nothing to do with anything anyone is promoting in this discussion. To toss it up as if that is what is being said (that is what you did) is not honest no matter how you dress it up. Going to be my big thing for a while... there is way to much of this stuff happening from all sides of the arguments.


Hey ho PP,


So who were you before you got here???? [:rofl:On the floor laughing... :rofl:]

ProjectPeter
Jun 22nd 2011, 06:42 PM
Pretty much the same... likely a little more jaded but not much more. ;)

percho
Jun 22nd 2011, 06:54 PM
What does the, and, at the beginning of verse 16 of John 14 tie together? Is the praying of Jesus for the Father to send the Holy Spirit contingent upon their keeping the commands?

Is the Holy Spirit necessary to eternal life?

ἐντολὰς, 18 Occurrences in the New Testament, interesting read.

Firstfruits
Jun 22nd 2011, 07:17 PM
What does the, and, at the beginning of verse 16 of John 14 tie together? Is the praying of Jesus for the Father to send the Holy Spirit contingent upon their keeping the commands?

Is the Holy Spirit necessary to eternal life?

ἐντολὰς, 18 Occurrences in the New Testament, interesting read.

From the scriptures Jesus said if you keep my commandments then he will send the comforter.

Jn 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jn 14:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And I will pray the Father, And he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Once we do as he has commanded, he will give us what he has promised.

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 22nd 2011, 07:39 PM
Pretty much the same... likely a little more jaded but not much more. ;)


LOL... what a let down reply... I was hoping for something more PPish :lol: Jaded? You? May it never be! :rofl:

ProjectPeter
Jun 22nd 2011, 07:48 PM
LOL... what a let down reply... I was hoping for something more PPish :lol: Jaded? You? May it never be! :rofl:To hot to come up with anything more clever than this! Heading back to Atlanta tomorrow thus leaving the very hot and muggy state of Florida. The land of SAND IN PLACES SAND OUGHT NOT BE! I can testify to such truths! :D

mailmandan
Jun 22nd 2011, 08:40 PM
[QUOTE=mailmandan;2703955]

So with regards to the following scriptures, by not doing his will/his commandments you do not believe it will affect you?

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 12:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Firstfruits

If "perfectly keeping all of His commandments" is what Jesus meant by "doing the will of the Father" in Matthew 7:21 in order to enter the kindgom of heaven, then we are all in trouble. Are you sinless and perfect? In John 6:40, we see "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." The will of God for us to receive eternal life is that we believe in Christ for salvation. John 6:40 mentions nothing about receiving eternal life based on obeying all of His commandments.

Not everyone who professes Christ is genuinely saved. The outward verbal acknowledgment of His Lordship is in of itself not enough to save the unbeliever apart from genuine repentance and faith. A genuinely saved person
is the one who has done the will of the Father in receiving eternal life by believing in Christ for salvation (John 6:40). Although we will fail at times, the general course of consistency is to obey God's will for our lives after we
are saved through faith. If we are not believing (trusting) in Christ alone for salvation (saving faith) then we have not done God's will no matter how many so called good works that we attempt to conjure up through the flesh.

I have accomplished God's will in receiving salvation. I believe (trust) in Christ alone for salvation (John 6:40). I now strive to do His will for my life, which is keeping His commandments, because I'm saved, not to become saved. His will is not for me to earn my salvation through perfectly obeying all of His commandments. I am not sinless and perfect. Matthew 7:21 and Matthew 12:50 does not teach that. You are reading your own preconceived ideas into these passages of Scripture. By not doing God's will in order to receive eternal life by choosing to believe in Christ for salvation will be effected by it by not receiving eternal life. (John 6:40; 3:18)
Christians may receive discipline from the Lord (Hebrews 12:4-8) but they still receive eternal life (Romans 8:30). There is no such thing as a genuine Christian who never does God's will and who never keeps God's commandments.

ProjectPeter
Jun 22nd 2011, 11:09 PM
Start winding this puppy down guys... thread is over 1000 post so going to shut it down soon.

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2011, 07:34 AM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2704021]

If "perfectly keeping all of His commandments" is what Jesus meant by "doing the will of the Father" in Matthew 7:21 in order to enter the kindgom of heaven, then we are all in trouble. Are you sinless and perfect? In John 6:40, we see "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." The will of God for us to receive eternal life is that we believe in Christ for salvation. John 6:40 mentions nothing about receiving eternal life based on obeying all of His commandments.

Not everyone who professes Christ is genuinely saved. The outward verbal acknowledgment of His Lordship is in of itself not enough to save the unbeliever apart from genuine repentance and faith. A genuinely saved person
is the one who has done the will of the Father in receiving eternal life by believing in Christ for salvation (John 6:40). Although we will fail at times, the general course of consistency is to obey God's will for our lives after we
are saved through faith. If we are not believing (trusting) in Christ alone for salvation (saving faith) then we have not done God's will no matter how many so called good works that we attempt to conjure up through the flesh.

I have accomplished God's will in receiving salvation. I believe (trust) in Christ alone for salvation (John 6:40). I now strive to do His will for my life, which is keeping His commandments, because I'm saved, not to become saved. His will is not for me to earn my salvation through perfectly obeying all of His commandments. I am not sinless and perfect. Matthew 7:21 and Matthew 12:50 does not teach that. You are reading your own preconceived ideas into these passages of Scripture. By not doing God's will in order to receive eternal life by choosing to believe in Christ for salvation will be effected by it by not receiving eternal life. (John 6:40; 3:18)
Christians may receive discipline from the Lord (Hebrews 12:4-8) but they still receive eternal life (Romans 8:30). There is no such thing as a genuine Christian who never does God's will and who never keeps God's commandments.

The will of the Father:

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Jn 6:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 23rd 2011, 11:45 AM
[QUOTE=mailmandan;2704277]

The will of the Father:

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Jn 6:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Firstfruits

The will of the Father

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Notice believes in Him "apart from additions or modifications." This is God's will for us to become saved.

Loving one another is God's will for us after we are saved through faith, but is not the means of our salvation. We could never love one another sufficiently enough to earn our way to Heaven. You continue to confuse God's will for us to become saved (believe on Him) with God's will for us after we are saved through faith and you end up adding additional requirements (works) to salvation through faith. Works salvation is not God's will (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5). Jesus Christ receives all the merit, all the glory for our salvation. We simply accept the free gift of eternal life through faith (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8).

The work of God is that we believe on Him for salvation (John 6:29).

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So which verse in the Bible says that whosoever believes in Him "and loves one another" or believes in Him "and obeys all of His commandments" shall not perish but have eternal life? Loving one another and keeping His commandments is the result of salvation, not the cause.

1 John 4:13 We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. We love the brethren because we are born of God, not to become born of God.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Again, we don't love in order to become born of God, but because we are born of God.

1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. Two camps. Those who love and are born of God (saved) those who do not love and do not know God (lost).

So those who are born of God have done God's will by believing in Christ for salvation (John 6:40) and everyone who loves (God's will for us after we are saved through faith) is done by those who are born of God.

Those who have not believed in Christ for salvation have not done God's will to become saved and do not accomplish God's will after salvation either.

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2011, 11:56 AM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2704566]

The will of the Father

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Notice believes in Him "apart from additions or modifications." This is God's will for us to become saved.

Loving one another is God's will for us after we are saved through faith, but is not the means of our salvation. We could never love one another sufficiently enough to earn our way to Heaven. You continue to confuse God's will for us to become saved (believe on Him) with God's will for us after we are saved through faith and you end up adding additional requirements (works) to salvation through faith. Works salvation is not God's will (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5). Jesus Christ receives all the merit, all the glory for our salvation. We simply accept the free gift of eternal life through faith (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8).

The work of God is that we believe on Him for salvation (John 6:29).

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So which verse in the Bible says that whosoever believes in Him "and loves one another" or believes in Him "and obeys all of His commandments" shall not perish but have eternal life? Loving one another and keeping His commandments is the result of salvation, not the cause.

1 John 4:13 We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. We love the brethren because we are born of God, not to become born of God.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Again, we don't love in order to become born of God, but because we are born of God.

1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. Two camps. Those who love and are born of God (saved) those who do not love and do not know God (lost).

So those who are born of God have done God's will by believing in Christ for salvation (John 6:40) and everyone who loves (God's will for us after we are saved through faith) is done by those who are born of God.

Those who have not believed in Christ for salvation have not done God's will to become saved and do not accomplish God's will after salvation either.

These scriptures say believe and also to love one another.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Jn 6:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Many believe, but do not do the will of the Father, or the will of Jesus.

Why choose to obey God but not Jesus?

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 23rd 2011, 01:05 PM
[QUOTE=mailmandan;2704620]

These scriptures say believe and also to love one another.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Jn 6:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Many believe, but do not do the will of the Father, or the will of Jesus.

Why choose to obey God but not Jesus?

Firstfruits

1 John 3:23 does not say and love one another to become saved. 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Again, we don't love one another in order to become born of God (saved), but because we are born of God.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. So those who believe have done God's will in receiving eternal life, yet you say, many believe, but do not do the will of the Father, or the will of Jesus. John clearly said, everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Where did John say that those who are born of God do not love or do not do the will of the Father, or the will of Jesus? How can you obey God but not Jesus? God the Father and God the Son (Jesus) have the same will for us.

What happened to and loves one another in John 6:40? Also, what happened to and loves one another in John 6:29? In John 3:16? In John 3:18? and love one another follows salvation.

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2011, 01:26 PM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2704624]

1 John 3:23 does not say and love one another to become saved. 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Again, we don't love one another in order to become born of God (saved), but because we are born of God.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. So those who believe have done God's will in receiving eternal life, yet you say, many believe, but do not do the will of the Father, or the will of Jesus. John clearly said, everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Where did John say that those who are born of God do not love or do not do the will of the Father, or the will of Jesus? How can you obey God but not Jesus? God the Father and God the Son (Jesus) have the same will for us.

What happened to and loves one another in John 6:40? Also, what happened to and loves one another in John 6:29? In John 3:16? In John 3:18? and love one another follows salvation.

So do you believe that what Jesus has commanded can be ignored without fear of reprecusions? I am talking about what has been commanded.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

What is the message that we have had from the begining from Jesus?

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 23rd 2011, 02:48 PM
[QUOTE=mailmandan;2704677]

So do you believe that what Jesus has commanded can be ignored without fear of reprecusions? I am talking about what has been commanded.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

What is the message that we have had from the begining from Jesus?

Firstfruits

If we don't believe in Christ for salvation, the reprecusion is condemnation. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.

Loving one another is not ignored by those who are born of God, although some Christians will do a better job than others. John points out two camps. Those who love and are born of God (saved) those who do not love and do not know God (lost) - 1 John 4:7-8. You are trying to create a third camp of those who are born of God but do not love.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, because we are saved, not to become saved.

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2011, 03:00 PM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2704691]

If we don't believe in Christ for salvation, the reprecusion is condemnation. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.

Loving one another is not ignored by those who are born of God, although some Christians will do a better job than others. John points out two camps. Those who love and are born of God (saved) those who do not love and do not know God (lost) - 1 John 4:7-8. You are trying to create a third camp of those who are born of God but do not love.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, because we are saved, not to become saved.

The commandment from God is that we believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ. What about what Jesus has commanded?

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Should we only obey what God has commanded, but not what Jesus has commanded?

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 23rd 2011, 03:18 PM
[QUOTE=mailmandan;2704727]

The commandment from God is that we believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ. What about what Jesus has commanded?

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Should we only obey what God has commanded, but not what Jesus has commanded?

Firstfruits

Believing in Him is a commandment for us to become saved. Loving one another is a commandment for those who are saved, not a requisite for salvation. We should absolutely obey Jesus, but nobody perfectly obeys Him. We are not sinless and perfect. We don't earn our way into Heaven by perfectly obeying all of His commandments. This is the point that you keep missing.

There are those who love and are born of God (saved) and there are those who do not love and do not know God (lost) - 1 John 4:7-8. You are still trying to create a third camp of those who are saved, but never obey what Jesus has commanded. You are reading the Bible through the lens of works salvation. This is why you are having such a difficult time understanding these passages of Scripture.

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2011, 04:35 PM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2704731]

Believing in Him is a commandment for us to become saved. Loving one another is a commandment for those who are saved, not a requisite for salvation. We should absolutely obey Jesus, but nobody perfectly obeys Him. We are not sinless and perfect. We don't earn our way into Heaven by perfectly obeying all of His commandments. This is the point that you keep missing.

There are those who love and are born of God (saved) and there are those who do not love and do not know God (lost) - 1 John 4:7-8. You are still trying to create a third camp of those who are saved, but never obey what Jesus has commanded. You are reading the Bible through the lens of works salvation. This is why you are having such a difficult time understanding these passages of Scripture.

As I said I am talking about the commandments. Are we not to keep what Jesus has commanded, and what God has commanded, equally the same?

You cannot keep one without the other.

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 23rd 2011, 06:52 PM
[QUOTE=mailmandan;2704741]

As I said I am talking about the commandments. Are we not to keep what Jesus has commanded, and what God has commanded, equally the same?

You cannot keep one without the other.

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Firstfruits

We cannot truly love one another until we believe and are saved first. Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7) He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (1 John 4:8)

If loving one another was an additional requirement for salvation "in addition to believing in Him for salvation," then God the Father and God the Son would have equally said so in (John 3:16,18,36; 5:34; 6:40).

1 John 3:23 is not giving a double requirement in order to receive salvation. We are saved through faith in Christ, not through our best efforts to love others. Loving others is what we are saved for, not by.

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2011, 07:19 PM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2704804]

We cannot truly love one another until we believe and are saved first. Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7) He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (1 John 4:8)

If loving one another was an additional requirement for salvation "in addition to believing in Him for salvation," then God the Father and God the Son would have equally said so in (John 3:16,18,36; 5:34; 6:40).

1 John 3:23 is not giving a double requirement in order to receive salvation. We are saved through faith in Christ, not through our best efforts to love others. Loving others is what we are saved for, not by.

Would you agree that after we have obeyed God by puting our trust in Jesus that we then need to be obedient to what Jesus has commanded in order for men to know that we are Christs Disciples?

Jn 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 23rd 2011, 07:34 PM
[QUOTE=mailmandan;2704925]

Would you agree that after we have obeyed God by puting our trust in Jesus that we then need to be obedient to what Jesus has commanded in order for men to know that we are Christs Disciples?

Jn 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Firstfruits

In order for men to know that we are Christ's Disciples, yes. As a requisite for salvation after we are saved through faith, no. We do not perfectly obey Jesus so we need Him to save us through faith. We can't save ourselves through works.

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2011, 07:47 PM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2704937]

In order for men to know that we are Christ's Disciples, yes. As a requisite for salvation after we are saved through faith, no. We do not perfectly obey Jesus so we need Him to save us through faith. We can't save ourselves through works.

So what God has commanded and what Jesus has commanded go hand in hand, in as much as to say you cannot have one without the other?

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 23rd 2011, 07:53 PM
[QUOTE=mailmandan;2704946]

So what God has commanded and what Jesus has commanded go hand in hand, in as much as to say you cannot have one without the other?

Firstfruits

We are saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Period. Every command in the Bible is not a requisite for salvation. If it were, then we would have to live sinless perfect lives in order to be saved (Matthew 22:37-40).

We are saved for good works, not by good works. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10) This does not equate to salvation by works through perfectly obeying all of His commandments.

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2011, 08:02 PM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2704952]

We are saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Period. Every command in the Bible is not a requisite for salvation. If it were, then we would have to live sinless perfect lives in order to be saved (Matthew 22:37-40).

We are saved for good works, not by good works. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10) This does not equate to salvation by works through perfectly obeying all of His commandments.

Is this true or false?

What God has commanded and what Jesus has commanded go hand in hand, in as much as to say you cannot have one without the other.

Can this scripture be separated?

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Jun 24th 2011, 10:51 AM
[QUOTE=mailmandan;2704953]

Is this true or false?

What God has commanded and what Jesus has commanded go hand in hand, in as much as to say you cannot have one without the other.

Can this scripture be separated?

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Firstfruits

It's true that what God the Father has commanded and what Jesus has commanded go hand in hand, but we cannot truly love one another without first believing on the name of His Son Jesus Christ. I'm not trying to separate 1 John 3:23.

Is this true or false?

Those who believe in Christ for salvation are still lost until they love one another "enough?" Does 1 John 3:23 negate John 1:12; 3:16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26.

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2011, 12:00 PM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2704959]

It's true that what God the Father has commanded and what Jesus has commanded go hand in hand, but we cannot truly love one another without first believing on the name of His Son Jesus Christ. I'm not trying to separate 1 John 3:23.

Is this true or false?

Those who believe in Christ for salvation are still lost until they love one another "enough?" Does 1 John 3:23 negate John 1:12; 3:16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26.

I hope you do not mind, I have moved this post to "Separation of the word". I will answer you there.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

jacob2i
Oct 17th 2014, 02:54 AM
This is the antithesis of grace. Perseverance is work.

Boo
Oct 22nd 2014, 09:44 AM
This is the antithesis of grace. Perseverance is work.

So is endurance.

Do we have to endure to the end?

Kalahari
Oct 22nd 2014, 10:34 AM
So is endurance.

Do we have to endure to the end?

If it is to obtain, then imo yes.
If it is to grow in my faith, then no.

mailmandan
Oct 22nd 2014, 12:01 PM
Do we endure to the end in our own strength? Who keeps us strong to the end? 1 Corinthians 1:8 - He will confirm/keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Boo
Oct 22nd 2014, 11:05 PM
Do we endure to the end in our own strength? Who keeps us strong to the end? 1 Corinthians 1:8 - He will confirm/keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If no steadfastness is required on our part, the encouragement is all for nothing.

mailmandan
Oct 23rd 2014, 12:39 AM
If no steadfastness is required on our part, the encouragement is all for nothing.

Our faith, our steadfastness, His power.

Boo
Oct 23rd 2014, 09:47 AM
Our faith, our steadfastness, His power.

You'll surely get no argument from me on this statement.

Amen.