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LankyLee
Apr 3rd 2011, 07:55 PM
Is this statement True or False???

The reason for this poll is just to see where we are.
If you have a totally different belief system than the one you are debating on the message board you might be better served if you know what you are up against.

Seems we all need to pray about this.

Firstfruits
Apr 3rd 2011, 08:01 PM
Is this statement True or False???

The reason for this poll is just to see where we are.
If you have a totally different belief system than the one you are debating on the message board you might be better served if you know what you are up against.

Seems we all need to pray about this.

I believe the statement to be true, but then you are required to live accordingly, we need to continue in the faith.

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 3rd 2011, 08:46 PM
I believe the statement to be true, but then you are required to live accordingly, we need to continue in the faith.

FirstfruitsAh, yes, but what does 'continue in the faith' mean to you?

Firstfruits
Apr 3rd 2011, 08:47 PM
Ah, yes, but what does 'continue in the faith' mean to you?

Faith in Christ and his teachings as we have been taught and commanded by his disciples.

Firstfruits

Ascender
Apr 3rd 2011, 08:50 PM
the same thing that "perseverance of the saints" means to me

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 3rd 2011, 08:52 PM
Faith in Christ and his teachings as we have been taught and commanded by his disciples.

FirstfruitsWhat would that be?

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 3rd 2011, 08:53 PM
the same thing that "perseverance of the saints" means to meWhat does "perseverance of the saints" mean to you?

Firstfruits
Apr 3rd 2011, 08:56 PM
the same thing that "perseverance of the saints" means to me

What then have we been commanded to observe?

Firstfruits

BroRog
Apr 3rd 2011, 10:20 PM
Is this statement True or False???

The reason for this poll is just to see where we are.
If you have a totally different belief system than the one you are debating on the message board you might be better served if you know what you are up against.

Seems we all need to pray about this.To me, the statement is nonsensical. The word "alone" means "isolated from the others." To say that we are saved by grace alone, is to say that we are saved entirely by grace without faith or Christ or anything else. Or if we say we are saved by faith alone, it is understood that we saved apart from works, perhaps, but not apart from grace or Christ and yet we are saved by all three together not each of them alone.

LankyLee
Apr 3rd 2011, 10:28 PM
To me, the statement is nonsensical. The word "alone" means "isolated from the others." To say that we are saved by grace alone, is to say that we are saved entirely by grace without faith or Christ or anything else. Or if we say we are saved by faith alone, it is understood that we saved apart from works, perhaps, but not apart from grace or Christ and yet we are saved by all three together not each of them alone.

No one else but Christ
No other way but Faith in Christ
All done by the Grace of God

I guess this is another way to say it.

but that is a statement used by many for a very long time.

BroRog
Apr 3rd 2011, 10:46 PM
No one else but Christ
No other way but Faith in Christ
All done by the Grace of God

I guess this is another way to say it.

but that is a statement used by many for a very long time.I know, but besides the fact that it isn't true, it's confusing -- at least to me.

LankyLee
Apr 3rd 2011, 10:48 PM
I know, but besides the fact that it isn't true, it's confusing -- at least to me.

What is not true about it?

BroRog
Apr 4th 2011, 12:11 AM
What is not true about it?Well, it isn't so much that it isn't true, it's that our list of slogans doesn't do justice to the complexity of salvation. I think I could find 10 or 12 different things that mark a person as being a child of God other than faith. For instance, Jesus says that if we are not willing to forgive our brother, God will not forgive us. That is but one example. There are others. Those who belong to God are not only those who have faith, but they are those who seek first the kingdom, fear God, love God, love our brother, repent, are humble, preserver under trial, obey the faith, obey Jesus, are a disciple of Jesus, and love the truth. All of these are markers that identify the one whom God is saving.

Ascender
Apr 4th 2011, 12:14 AM
Slogans, motto's and such like never do justice to the bigger picture.

Ascender
Apr 4th 2011, 12:19 AM
What does "perseverance of the saints" mean to you?


There are strong grounds to hope that the truly regenerate will persevere unto the end, and be saved, through the power of divine grace which is pledged for their support; but their future obedience and final salvation are neither determined nor certain, since through infirmity and manifold temptations they are in danger of falling; and they ought, therefore, to watch and pray lest they make shipwreck of their faith and be lost.This is my denominational statement on the topic and I agree with it.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 4th 2011, 12:23 AM
Well, it isn't so much that it isn't true, it's that our list of slogans doesn't do justice to the complexity of salvation. I think I could find 10 or 12 different things that mark a person as being a child of God other than faith. For instance, Jesus says that if we are not willing to forgive our brother, God will not forgive us. That is but one example. There are others. Those who belong to God are not only those who have faith, but they are those who seek first the kingdom, fear God, love God, love our brother, repent, are humble, preserver under trial, obey the faith, obey Jesus, are a disciple of Jesus, and love the truth. All of these are markers that identify the one whom God is saving.These all fall under grace.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 4th 2011, 12:33 AM
This is my denominational statement on the topic and I agree with it.Sounds good. So it is by grace (divine assistance for ones sanctification) through faith?

notuptome
Apr 4th 2011, 11:49 AM
The words are as I recall a summation that Martin Luther made when he left the rcc.

Salvation is not complex. Salvation is so simple even a young child can understand it. It is mans "widsom" that complicates Gods plan of salvation by grace received through faith and apart from works. Far too many pay lip service to saved by grace and focus on we must do all these things after we are made the beneficiaries of grace. Immediately they draw the attention from Christ to themselves.

Born again believers are sons of God first and servants second. We are not the Son of God but we are a son of God. We are heirs to the promise through Christ. We have an eternal birth right as we are born again in the Holy Spirit unto God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 4th 2011, 12:46 PM
What would that be?

That which is according to the gospel we have received.

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Firstfruits

BadDog
Apr 4th 2011, 04:46 PM
Very nice idea for a poll/thread. I imagine that it is almost "politically incorrect" to not vote "T" here, :P yet I imagine that some who voted "T" actually don't really hold to that teaching as firmly as they may think. But it is encouraging to see such a strong showing in what may perhaps be the single most significant doctrine, outside of the person of Christ, to think through carefully just where one stands.

Also personally, just FWIW, I hold to "preservation of the saints," rather than "perseverance of the saints" and feel that the latter can lead to a weakening of the "salvation by grace alone, through faith alone" soteriology. Also, though "continuing in the faith" is absolutely critical to our intimacy with Christ and service for Him, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone... which negates this continuance in the faith in terms of our salvation (eternal life), doesn't it?

In case anyone is wondering, I do think that probably all believers do struggle with persevering, and some do not persevere... doesn't mean I won't see them in heaven as the basis for their justification is trusting in the finished work in Christ, and not in how well they walk the talk. I think any other position here means we are not saved "by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone." :D Can't have it both ways.

I'd really like to hear some have the courage to say, "You know what, we are not saved by grace alone through faith alone..."

Just some comments... probably won't be around to respond much on this thread. Too bad... interesting thread.

BD

RollTide21
Apr 4th 2011, 05:32 PM
Very nice idea for a poll/thread. I imagine that it is almost "politically incorrect" to not vote "T" here, :P yet I imagine that some who voted "T" actually don't really hold to that teaching as firmly as they may think. But it is encouraging to see such a strong showing in what may perhaps be the single most significant doctrine, outside of the person of Christ, to think through carefully just where one stands.

Also personally, just FWIW, I hold to "preservation of the saints, rather than "perseverance of the saints" and feel that the latter can lead to a weakening of the "salvation by grace alone, through faith alone" soteriology. Also, though "continuing in the faith" is absolutely critical to our intimacy with Christ and service for Him, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone... which negates this continuance in the faith in terms of our salvation (eternal life), doesn't it?

In case anyone is wondering, I do think that some believers do struggle with persevering, and do not persevere... doesn't mean I won't see them in heaven as the basis for their justification is trusting in the finished work in Christ, and not in how well they walk the talk. I think any other position here means we are not saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone." :D Can't have it both ways.

I'd really like to hear some have the courage to say, "You know what, we are not saved by grace alone through faith alone..."

Just some comments... probably won't be around to respond much on this thread. Too bad... interesting thread.

BDMy guess is that everyone is going to agree that we are saved solely by Grace through Faith. There will be plenty, however, who say that, once this initial offer of Grace is accepted, we must persevere. My own personal take is that, if we have truly received the Holy Spirit, we WILL persevere. The Spirit becomes our motivation and, when we fail, we do so out of weakness and with fundamental regret. I believe He will be faithful in His chastisement and conviction to restore us.

When we truly have a heart for Him as testified by the Spirit, He guides us into Eternity.

notuptome
Apr 4th 2011, 06:20 PM
That which is according to the gospel we have received.

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Firstfruits
He that believeth in Me though he were dead yet shall he live believest thou this. John 11:25-26

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 4th 2011, 06:58 PM
He that believeth in Me though he were dead yet shall he live believest thou this. John 11:25-26

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen! and all the gospel entails.

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 4th 2011, 11:22 PM
Also, though "continuing in the faith" is absolutely critical to our intimacy with Christ and service for Him, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone... which negates this continuance in the faith in terms of our salvation (eternal life), doesn't it?Not at all, continuing in the faith means by grace through faith.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 4th 2011, 11:26 PM
My guess is that everyone is going to agree that we are saved solely by Grace through Faith. There will be plenty, however, who say that, once this initial offer of Grace is accepted, we must persevere. My own personal take is that, if we have truly received the Holy Spirit, we WILL persevere. The Spirit becomes our motivation and, when we fail, we do so out of weakness and with fundamental regret. I believe He will be faithful in His chastisement and conviction to restore us.

When we truly have a heart for Him as testified by the Spirit, He guides us into Eternity.Amen! except for the restore part. The gospel is not about initial grace. Grace is grace. The intial grace and continued grace is the same grace. You said "The Spirit becomes our motivation" and scripture says "Spirit of grace", so you are correct! Nice post!

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 4th 2011, 11:30 PM
Amen! and all the gospel entails.

FirstfruitsWhat notuptome posted is the gospel. The gospel is not all things whatsoever I have commanded you. If it were, no one could be born again until they learn all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

Firstfruits
Apr 5th 2011, 08:26 AM
What notuptome posted is the gospel. The gospel is not all things whatsoever I have commanded you. If it were, no one could be born again until they learn all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

Then what do you understand Jesus to have said in the following?

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What has Jesus commanded the disciples?

Firstfruits

Longsufferer
Apr 5th 2011, 10:00 AM
The two are not separated, rather, they are in unity of purpose, which is why it is written that, By grace are ye saved THROUGH faith, the one cannot be without the other. Beside this, we are saved (also) by hope (Rom 8:24); and again hope also is in unity of purpose with grace and faith.

14390876
Apr 5th 2011, 10:38 AM
I agree with the statement. But I'm not sure we all mean the same thing when we are saying it, as is evident from this thread. I am also not sure I always agree with is implied by it in various discussions.

BadDog
Apr 5th 2011, 07:12 PM
My guess is that everyone is going to agree that we are saved solely by Grace through Faith. There will be plenty, however, who say that, once this initial offer of Grace is accepted, we must persevere. My own personal take is that, if we have truly received the Holy Spirit, we WILL persevere. The Spirit becomes our motivation and, when we fail, we do so out of weakness and with fundamental regret. I believe He will be faithful in His chastisement and conviction to restore us.

When we truly have a heart for Him as testified by the Spirit, He guides us into Eternity.RollTide21,

Yes, I think you're right.

Now just FYI I do think that one who has trusted in Christ will persevere in their faith (belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, etc.), but I do not think that all who have trusted in Christ will persevere in their works - though works do naturally follow faith in Christ. I see the parable of the 4 soils as indicating such, and only the 1st soil as representing those who did not come to faith in Christ. It specifically says that some will not persevere during hard times. Some see those who didn't persevere as not genuine believers. I personally see that as genuine believers, but not committed disciples.

Luke 8:12 The seeds along the path are those who have heard. Then the Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Jesus doesn't say about any of the others that they did not believe and were not saved. Regarding those sown among thorns it says, "When pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles." They don't persevere. The question is whether or not theirs was genuine faith - I think it was. I do agree that God is faithful to discipline us as children. There can reach a point where God may actually take us home to be with him.

2 Timothy 4:16 At my first defense, no one came to my assistance, but everyone deserted me. May it not be counted against them.

Here we see that at Paul's 1st defense before Caesar everyone deserted him. But God remained faithful.

Good thoughts. Thanks.

FWIW,
BD

Slug1
Apr 5th 2011, 07:23 PM
RollTide21,

Yes, I think you're right.

Now just FYI I do think that one who has trusted in Christ will persevere in their faith (belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, etc.), but I do not think that all who have trusted in Christ will persevere in their works - though works do naturally follow faith in Christ. I see the parable of the 4 soils as indicating such, and only the 1st soil as representing those who did not come to faith in Christ. It specifically says that some will not persevere during hard times. Some see those who didn't persevere as not genuine believers. I personally see that as genuine believers, but not committed disciples.

Good thoughts. Thanks.

FWIW,
BDHey Baddog, long time no see... or I haven't seen ya for awhile :hug:

I agree, of the 4 examples in that parable... #1 is very specific that they are not saved, they fall away before accepting Christ. The others though... must be saved, yet still fall away for the various reasons explained to us in that example of a parable.

The message such as this has to be through a parable because for Jesus to be "specific" of any and ALL reasons/examples/ways etc of falling away would add many unnecessary pages to the Bible. So, through a parable, Jesus makes the truth know, His point is made and we have to accept it.

BadDog
Apr 5th 2011, 07:30 PM
Not at all, continuing in the faith means by grace through faith.
Ezer,

:confused Not sure what you're saying here. Now continuing in "the faith" may be different than continuing "in faith." By grace means it's a gift, totally devoid of any works. By faith means that we trust in Him, in His work on the cross for our salvation.

So how does "continuing in the faith mean by grace through faith"? That is not literally what it means, of course. It literally means that we receive a gift of eternal life simply by receiving it through faith. "Continuing in the faith" refers to what happens after that. If we must persevere, then how is that not works? :confused

To say that works naturally follow faith is different than saying works MUST follow faith.

Thx,

BD

BadDog
Apr 5th 2011, 07:34 PM
Hey Baddog, long time no see... or I haven't seen ya for awhile :hug:

I agree, of the 4 examples in that parable... #1 is very specific that they are not saved, they fall away before accepting Christ. The others though... must be saved, yet still fall away for the various reasons explained to us in that example of a parable.

The message such as this has to be through a parable because for Jesus to be "specific" of any and ALL reasons/examples/ways etc of falling away would add many unnecessary pages to the Bible. So, through a parable, Jesus makes the truth know, His point is made and we have to accept it.Hey Slug1!

Don't have much time during the school year these days.

I agree. I also think that the purpose of that parable was not to deal with salvation, but to address our attitude to God's Word.

Take care,

BD

notuptome
Apr 5th 2011, 07:51 PM
Hey Baddog, long time no see... or I haven't seen ya for awhile :hug:

I agree, of the 4 examples in that parable... #1 is very specific that they are not saved, they fall away before accepting Christ. The others though... must be saved, yet still fall away for the various reasons explained to us in that example of a parable.

The message such as this has to be through a parable because for Jesus to be "specific" of any and ALL reasons/examples/ways etc of falling away would add many unnecessary pages to the Bible. So, through a parable, Jesus makes the truth know, His point is made and we have to accept it.
They have not fallen away. They did not mature to the point of reproducing nor did those who were entangled in the care of this world. Only those from whose heart the word was snatched away before it could sprout were lost.

Once the Holy Spirit has entered a heart and created eternal life the seal is placed and the deal is done.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 5th 2011, 09:01 PM
They have not fallen away. They did not mature to the point of reproducing nor did those who were entangled in the care of this world. Only those from whose heart the word was snatched away before it could sprout were lost.

Once the Holy Spirit has entered a heart and created eternal life the seal is placed and the deal is done.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger... to fall away (concerning salvation), one must FIRST be found or in Christ (saved). Soil #1 is about those hearing but never accepting. So they weren't "lost or fallen away" because they were never found. They are the ones who ARE just... lost.

All the others, were found... they accepted but for the various reasons explained in the parable, they then GOT lost or fell away from Christ because for the various reasons, left, fell away, didn't persevere, became unfruitful etc.

You can't explain it away... the scriptures are very clear.

You must either accept it or not.

You seem to "not" and then explain it away according to the doctrine you choose to follow.

Sorry, I'll follow the scriptures as they are laid out. Not the way a doctrine will explain them away.

notuptome
Apr 5th 2011, 09:34 PM
Roger... to fall away (concerning salvation), one must FIRST be found or in Christ (saved). Soil #1 is about those hearing but never accepting. So they weren't "lost or fallen away" because they were never found. They are the ones who ARE just... lost.
You are going in circles. Never found is lost. Lost is lost. You cannot have truth apart from sound doctrine.

All the others, were found... they accepted but for the various reasons explained in the parable, they then GOT lost or fell away from Christ because for the various reasons, left, fell away, didn't persevere, became unfruitful etc.
Here is where you draw an incorrect conclusion. Salvation is not by perseverence it is by grace. Salvation is by the power of God not the efforts of man.

You can't explain it away... the scriptures are very clear.
I'm not explaining away I'm opening the scriptures to reveal the truth.

You must either accept it or not.
The same must be said for you.

You seem to "not" and then explain it away according to the doctrine you choose to follow.
Doctrine from study of Gods word and leading of Gods Holy Spirit. Tell me how does Gods Holy Spirit teach an man that he can overcome the blood of Christ and again condem himself to an eternity in hell? Doesn't God love those who are His children more than that?

Sorry, I'll follow the scriptures as they are laid out. Not the way a doctrine will explain them away.
Apart from a solid foundation a man cannot stand. I will not discard sound biblical doctrine. Jesus taught sound biblical doctrine. I should think any man who claims the Holy Spirit is working through him should delight in sound biblical doctrine.

Greater is He Who is in you than he who is in the world. As a child of the Light walk in the Light. The new creature created by Christ will never depart from the Lord. It is against his nature to depart from Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 6th 2011, 12:27 AM
You are going in circles. Never found is lost. Lost is lost. You cannot have truth apart from sound doctrine.

Here is where you draw an incorrect conclusion. Salvation is not by perseverence it is by grace. Salvation is by the power of God not the efforts of man.

I'm not explaining away I'm opening the scriptures to reveal the truth.

The same must be said for you.

Doctrine from study of Gods word and leading of Gods Holy Spirit. Tell me how does Gods Holy Spirit teach an man that he can overcome the blood of Christ and again condem himself to an eternity in hell? Doesn't God love those who are His children more than that?

Apart from a solid foundation a man cannot stand. I will not discard sound biblical doctrine. Jesus taught sound biblical doctrine. I should think any man who claims the Holy Spirit is working through him should delight in sound biblical doctrine.

Greater is He Who is in you than he who is in the world. As a child of the Light walk in the Light. The new creature created by Christ will never depart from the Lord. It is against his nature to depart from Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ya know... I understand pretty much all you say.

BUT

Your explaining away the meaning of that parable doesn't change the meaning of it according to the doctrine you follow. So I'm not clear in expressing what I want to say so you exploit what I wrote as if I don't make any sense... no problem.

Soil 1 is about those not accepting Christ, so when satan takes the Word away from them, they had not embraced the Gospel and have not accepted Christ... so they were never saved. So, it's not about them "loosing" something they never had... they are just lost because they were always lost.

Now, those of the examples for soil 2,3,4 are the ones who did embrace the Gospel, did accept Christ and ARE SAVED.

Yet, those in the example of soil 2, 3... fall away.

Those in soil 4, remain.

1 = never saved
2 = saved but fallen away
3 = saved but fallen away
4 = saved and remain in Christ.

It's very clear, so clear it's point blank clear and the doctrine you follow can't change what the Word of God means. So your "against his nature" opinion is just that... your opinion based on what the doctrine you follow tells you and you accept the doctrine over the Word of God.

I mean... soil 2 and 3... S-P-E-L-L-S it out for us about the truth, that a saved person CAN fall away.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 6th 2011, 01:11 AM
Then what do you understand Jesus to have said in the following?

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What has Jesus commanded the disciples?

FirstfruitsWhy does it matter? Jesus taught a lot of things. Wasn't the gospel though. The gospel is the good news of salvation by grace through faith. What you want to do is find something Jesus said to do, and say if we do not do it we are not saved. I don't know why you want to do that. According to your faith and by your words you will either be justified or condemned. If that is how it works eternity is going to be a mighty lonely place for Jesus. Since we know Jesus is wisdom, this is obvioulsy not how it works.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 6th 2011, 02:38 AM
Ezer,

:confused Not sure what you're saying here. Now continuing in "the faith" may be different than continuing "in faith."They're not really different. The faith is what Christ established via the cross, which is his life, death, burial, and resurrection. No longer by law, but by faith in Christ. As Romans says, from faith (law), to faith (Christ). We continue in faith in the faith. It's just to emphasize we cannot continue in works in the faith because the faith is not by works.


By grace means it's a gift, totally devoid of any works.More than that. If grace just means gift how do we receive the gift of grace and live by grace? How is it by the grace of God? Salvation is not some past moment, but continual. I need grace, divine assistance for sanctification, today and will again tomorrow. Grace is what we have been given via his death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and seating. IOW, death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and seating is what we have been given. Not later, but right now. That is grace.

To continue in the faith means to continue to walk by grace through faith. That was Paul's point to the Galatians. He said the same to the Colossians and Ephesisans. Have you begun in the Spirit and walk in the flesh? As you have therefore received Christ, so walk in him. We are being saved the same way we first got saved, else we are not continuing in the faith.


By faith means that we trust in Him, in His work on the cross for our salvation.I would say,
"through faith means that we trust in Him, in His Grace"
After all, it is by divine assistance for sanctification we are saved, being saved, and will be saved.


So how does "continuing in the faith mean by grace through faith"?I hope I have explained this well enough already.


That is not literally what it means, of course.It is exactly what it means.


It literally means that we receive a gift of eternal life simply by receiving it through faith. "Continuing in the faith" refers to what happens after that. If we must persevere, then how is that not works? :confusedBecause it is by grace through faith we walk, just as we first received Christ.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:


To say that works naturally follow faith is different than saying works MUST follow faith.Yes. To say works must follow faith is wrong. God's grace is effectual. Works naturally follow faith.

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Act 11:23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.

Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

2Co 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

notuptome
Apr 6th 2011, 01:24 PM
Ya know... I understand pretty much all you say.

BUT

Your explaining away the meaning of that parable doesn't change the meaning of it according to the doctrine you follow. So I'm not clear in expressing what I want to say so you exploit what I wrote as if I don't make any sense... no problem.
There is a problem that you continue to ignore. You rush in full of zeal and assume that you know what is being taught without taking the time to allow the Lord to impart wisdom. Reminds me of a story about a cat that sat on a hot stove. He over learned his lesson and never sat down again. Wrong doctrine should be discarded but sound doctrine is that upon which we stand in the Lord. Jesus taught doctrine. The apostles taught doctrine.

Soil 1 is about those not accepting Christ, so when satan takes the Word away from them, they had not embraced the Gospel and have not accepted Christ... so they were never saved. So, it's not about them "loosing" something they never had... they are just lost because they were always lost.
So far you are correct.

Now, those of the examples for soil 2,3,4 are the ones who did embrace the Gospel, did accept Christ and ARE SAVED.
Even to this point you are correct.

Yet, those in the example of soil 2, 3... fall away.
Here is where you jump the tracks. Luke is the only one who says they fall away. Mark and Matthew say they withered or were offended when the testing came. Now you apply your meaning to the term fall away like it is universal in its use throughout the NT. What was Jesus teaching? These are indeed saved but they are unable to stand up during adversity or testing. Perhaps these are in a church that does not teach the word of God or in a church that is all entertainment and no feeding the flock. It does not mean nor did Jesus teach that they were lost only that they did not bring fruit to perfection.

Those in soil 4, remain.
Well these did grow and bring forth fruit with patience.

It's very clear, so clear it's point blank clear and the doctrine you follow can't change what the Word of God means. So your "against his nature" opinion is just that... your opinion based on what the doctrine you follow tells you and you accept the doctrine over the Word of God.
Your understanding of this doctrine is counter to what the word of God teaches. If it is so clear how is it you got it wrong? There is nothing here to suggest that these are lost only never reaching maturity to produce fruit. They did not refuse to produce fruit only unable because they had no soil and water to grow. The word of God is good soil but it requires the water of the Holy Spirit to take the nutrients into the plants. No soil no growth, no water no growth, both are necessary for growth.

I mean... soil 2 and 3... S-P-E-L-L-S it out for us about the truth, that a saved person CAN fall away.
I recently had an experience with growing tomatos that illustrates the point here. I attempted to grow my tomatos in planters instead of growing them in a conventional garden. I placed soil and fertilizer in the pots and watered the plants. The soil could not hold the water and they dried out very quickly. They withered. Everytime I watered them they sprang right up but they did not last as the water quickly dried up under the adversity of the hot afternoon sun. I should have added peat moss to hold the water in the bottom of the planter. The fruit these plants produced was no good. Rotted on the vine. Even though these plants produced no useable fruit they remained tomato plants.

Your contention that a saved person can fall away is true but falling away is not being lost. Many believed on Jesus but for fear of the Pharaisees did not confess Him openly. John 12:42 Does your form of legalism allow for these to be saved? Does being fearful of persecution preclude one from salvation? I hope not.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 6th 2011, 01:28 PM
Why does it matter? Jesus taught a lot of things. Wasn't the gospel though. The gospel is the good news of salvation by grace through faith. What you want to do is find something Jesus said to do, and say if we do not do it we are not saved. I don't know why you want to do that. According to your faith and by your words you will either be justified or condemned. If that is how it works eternity is going to be a mighty lonely place for Jesus. Since we know Jesus is wisdom, this is obvioulsy not how it works.

How can it not matter if we do not know what we are to observe as believers? How do we know if we are doing his will?

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Firstfruits

Slug1
Apr 6th 2011, 03:46 PM
There is a problem that you continue to ignore. You rush in full of zeal and assume that you know what is being taught without taking the time to allow the Lord to impart wisdom. Reminds me of a story about a cat that sat on a hot stove. He over learned his lesson and never sat down again. Wrong doctrine should be discarded but sound doctrine is that upon which we stand in the Lord. Jesus taught doctrine. The apostles taught doctrine.

So far you are correct.

Even to this point you are correct.

Here is where you jump the tracks. Luke is the only one who says they fall away. Mark and Matthew say they withered or were offended when the testing came. Now you apply your meaning to the term fall away like it is universal in its use throughout the NT. What was Jesus teaching? These are indeed saved but they are unable to stand up during adversity or testing. Perhaps these are in a church that does not teach the word of God or in a church that is all entertainment and no feeding the flock. It does not mean nor did Jesus teach that they were lost only that they did not bring fruit to perfection.

Well these did grow and bring forth fruit with patience.

Your understanding of this doctrine is counter to what the word of God teaches. If it is so clear how is it you got it wrong? There is nothing here to suggest that these are lost only never reaching maturity to produce fruit. They did not refuse to produce fruit only unable because they had no soil and water to grow. The word of God is good soil but it requires the water of the Holy Spirit to take the nutrients into the plants. No soil no growth, no water no growth, both are necessary for growth.

I recently had an experience with growing tomatos that illustrates the point here. I attempted to grow my tomatos in planters instead of growing them in a conventional garden. I placed soil and fertilizer in the pots and watered the plants. The soil could not hold the water and they dried out very quickly. They withered. Everytime I watered them they sprang right up but they did not last as the water quickly dried up under the adversity of the hot afternoon sun. I should have added peat moss to hold the water in the bottom of the planter. The fruit these plants produced was no good. Rotted on the vine. Even though these plants produced no useable fruit they remained tomato plants.

Your contention that a saved person can fall away is true but falling away is not being lost. Many believed on Jesus but for fear of the Pharaisees did not confess Him openly. John 12:42 Does your form of legalism allow for these to be saved? Does being fearful of persecution preclude one from salvation? I hope not.

For the cause of Christ
RogerWhen you divide what you are saying about withered with John 15... the truth about withered is discerned. It isn't what you say based on the doctrine you follow.

Withered happens when a person is removed from the vine (By God the Father) and then what happens?

Burned! These are those in soil 2 and 3.

What was once saved, by choice they allowed the world or whatever the reason choose God NO more... as you say, withered but then the truth about the meaning of withered based on SCRIPTURE aligns with God's meaning and not your meaning.

BroRog
Apr 6th 2011, 03:53 PM
Ya know... I understand pretty much all you say.

BUT

Your explaining away the meaning of that parable doesn't change the meaning of it according to the doctrine you follow. So I'm not clear in expressing what I want to say so you exploit what I wrote as if I don't make any sense... no problem.

Soil 1 is about those not accepting Christ, so when satan takes the Word away from them, they had not embraced the Gospel and have not accepted Christ... so they were never saved. So, it's not about them "loosing" something they never had... they are just lost because they were always lost.

Now, those of the examples for soil 2,3,4 are the ones who did embrace the Gospel, did accept Christ and ARE SAVED.

Yet, those in the example of soil 2, 3... fall away.

Those in soil 4, remain.

1 = never saved
2 = saved but fallen away
3 = saved but fallen away
4 = saved and remain in Christ.

It's very clear, so clear it's point blank clear and the doctrine you follow can't change what the Word of God means. So your "against his nature" opinion is just that... your opinion based on what the doctrine you follow tells you and you accept the doctrine over the Word of God.

I mean... soil 2 and 3... S-P-E-L-L-S it out for us about the truth, that a saved person CAN fall away.I don't think Jesus meant to say that soils 2 and 3 were saved. They believed and they fell away but they weren't saved. In this parable, the fruit is salvation. Only the fourth soil leads to salvation.

divaD
Apr 6th 2011, 04:48 PM
I don't think Jesus meant to say that soils 2 and 3 were saved. They believed and they fell away but they weren't saved. In this parable, the fruit is salvation. Only the fourth soil leads to salvation.


If the requirements, according to the OP, Saved by Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, in Christ Alone, is what is needed to be saved, then how did those in soils 2 and 3 ever make it to that level if they bypassed the requirements set forth in the OP? What was it that they believed in the 1st place, in order to make it to soil 2 or 3? In my opin, the parable of the soils seems to illustrate perseverance to the end.

notuptome
Apr 6th 2011, 04:51 PM
When you divide what you are saying about withered with John 15... the truth about withered is discerned. It isn't what you say based on the doctrine you follow.
Dividing error with more error is hardly profitable.

Withered happens when a person is removed from the vine (By God the Father) and then what happens?
Spiritual life can only be sustained when it draws its life giving sustenance from God. Our new birth in Christ is our grafting into the Living Vine.

Burned! These are those in soil 2 and 3.
Mixing parable and non-parable teaching is really confusing. Dead wood is burned. These in vs 6 had no life in them. They were not in the Living Vine.

What was once saved, by choice they allowed the world or whatever the reason choose God NO more... as you say, withered but then the truth about the meaning of withered based on SCRIPTURE aligns with God's meaning and not your meaning.
What we see here is God trimming and pruning the living branches to produce more fruit. We see God removing the dead branches who had no life in them. We do not see God removing living branches from the vine.

A little discipline in the study of Gods word is very useful.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RollTide21
Apr 6th 2011, 04:54 PM
Ya know... I understand pretty much all you say.

BUT

Your explaining away the meaning of that parable doesn't change the meaning of it according to the doctrine you follow. So I'm not clear in expressing what I want to say so you exploit what I wrote as if I don't make any sense... no problem.

Soil 1 is about those not accepting Christ, so when satan takes the Word away from them, they had not embraced the Gospel and have not accepted Christ... so they were never saved. So, it's not about them "loosing" something they never had... they are just lost because they were always lost.

Now, those of the examples for soil 2,3,4 are the ones who did embrace the Gospel, did accept Christ and ARE SAVED.

Yet, those in the example of soil 2, 3... fall away.

Those in soil 4, remain.

1 = never saved
2 = saved but fallen away
3 = saved but fallen away
4 = saved and remain in Christ.

It's very clear, so clear it's point blank clear and the doctrine you follow can't change what the Word of God means. So your "against his nature" opinion is just that... your opinion based on what the doctrine you follow tells you and you accept the doctrine over the Word of God.

I mean... soil 2 and 3... S-P-E-L-L-S it out for us about the truth, that a saved person CAN fall away.If soils 2-4 are all "initially saved", that completely discounts the condition of the soil. That interpretation of salvation reminds me of buying a car (I used to be in the car business).

4 people go in to buy a car. Person 1 wants a car, but has very little credit and what credit he does have is terrible. He leaves without a car. Person 2 has a good credit score, but very little credit. He buys the car, but the finance company doesn't approve the loan. He loses the car. Person 3 has plenty of credit, but a lot of bad credit. He buys the car, but the finance company doesn't approve the loan. He loses the car. Person 4 has plenty of really good credit. He buys the car and the finance company approves the loan. He keeps the car.

Salvation isn't Jesus tossing an offer out, waiting for people to buy it, and then hoping it sticks. The one who is saved is the one with the soil who receives the Gospel and bears fruit. It is the one whose Spirit is good for producing crop.

You are equating salvation with the seed taking hold. This is merely an interpretation and not the clear picture you paint, much less stating that those who don't agree are ignoring God and following man's doctrine. God has spread his seed all over the world and many have received it. Far fewer have had the heart to receive it in the manner that produces salvific Faith and Trust in Him.

notuptome
Apr 6th 2011, 04:55 PM
I don't think Jesus meant to say that soils 2 and 3 were saved. They believed and they fell away but they weren't saved. In this parable, the fruit is salvation. Only the fourth soil leads to salvation.
It seems that making salvation to be fruit impairs Gods ability to save. God saves by grace and the condition of the soil is of little consequence to His ability to save. God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 6th 2011, 05:09 PM
If soils 2-4 are all "initially saved", that completely discounts the condition of the soil. That interpretation of salvation reminds me of buying a car (I used to be in the car business).

4 people go in to buy a car. Person 1 wants a car, but has very little credit and what credit he does have is terrible. He leaves without a car. Person 2 has a good credit score, but very little credit. He buys the car, but the finance company doesn't approve the loan. He loses the car. Person 3 has plenty of credit, but a lot of bad credit. He buys the car, but the finance company doesn't approve the loan. He loses the car. Person 4 has plenty of really good credit. He buys the car and the finance company approves the loan. He keeps the car.

Salvation isn't Jesus tossing an offer out, waiting for people to buy it, and then hoping it sticks. The one who is saved is the one with the soil who receives the Gospel and bears fruit. It is the one whose Spirit is good for producing crop.

You are equating salvation with the seed taking hold. This is merely an interpretation and not the clear picture you paint, much less stating that those who don't agree are ignoring God and following man's doctrine. God has spread his seed all over the world and many have received it. Far fewer have had the heart to receive it in the manner that produces salvific Faith and Trust in Him.
Salvation is not based on our worthiness to receive it. It is based on the mercy of God to provide it to whosoever will receive it. Only Christ is worthy.

David said Blessed is the man to whom God imputes not iniquity. Ps 32:1-2

Jesus said I am come to seek and to save that which was lost. He sought us we did not seek Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 6th 2011, 05:13 PM
If the requirements, according to the OP, Saved by Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, in Christ Alone, is what is needed to be saved, then how did those in soils 2 and 3 ever make it to that level if they bypassed the requirements set forth in the OP? What was it that they believed in the 1st place, in order to make it to soil 2 or 3? In my opin, the parable of the soils seems to illustrate perseverance to the end.
Someday someone will need to explain to me how we can by our own merits retain something we could not by our own merits obtain.

We are saved by grace through faith in Christ. God has provided all that is necessary for our salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

divaD
Apr 6th 2011, 06:29 PM
Someday someone will need to explain to me how we can by our own merits retain something we could not by our own merits obtain.





Why then all those other passages that could only have meaning to a believer? Why did the authors waste all that time writing about things that weren't even remotely possible? You do know there's a lot of 'ifs' in the NT, right? What are all those for?

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


Take this passage for instance. This ccouldn't possibly be referring to anyone but a believer. And the point is, God can cut and will cut you off from the good olive tree if... Why in the world make threats like that if it weren't indeed possible? Also, how does one even get graffed into the good olive tree in the first place, if they weren't saved first?

As a matter of fact, the very next verse answers the question, is this just a meaningless threat, or is God serious here?

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Notice the 'if' in that verse. That indicates conditional. Salvation is indeed conditional.

RollTide21
Apr 6th 2011, 06:30 PM
It is based on the mercy of God to provide it to whosoever will receive it. Sure. "Whosoever will receive it" is the one with a humble and contrite Spirit. Those who are not receptive to His Grace do not receive it.

Butch5
Apr 6th 2011, 06:55 PM
I believe the statement to be true, but then you are required to live accordingly, we need to continue in the faith.

Firstfruits

FF,

You've backed yourself into a corner my friend.

BroRog
Apr 6th 2011, 07:11 PM
It seems that making salvation to be fruit impairs Gods ability to save. God saves by grace and the condition of the soil is of little consequence to His ability to save. God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all.

For the cause of Christ
RogerI'm not following you. If God is the farmer and he is tilling the soil, then not only is the condition of the soil consequential, but he is fully in charge of who gets saved and who doesn't.

Firstfruits
Apr 6th 2011, 07:36 PM
FF,

You've backed yourself into a corner my friend.

How so? When we as sinners living lives unacceptable to God hear the word and believe, are we not required to change how we live or do we continue as we were?

Firstfruits

divaD
Apr 6th 2011, 07:38 PM
It seems that making salvation to be fruit impairs Gods ability to save.



Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Here it equates believing with being saved.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.


Here it says...which for a while believe. We were just told in the preceding verse that believing equtes to being saved.

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Even tho it doesn't say so in this verse, these obviously believed as well.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

But it also doesn't mention believing in this verse either. We know for a fact that they believed tho. I say this in order to show my previous point in relation to verse 14.

Notice the difference between verse 14 and 15. The ones in verse 14 bring no fruit to perfection, thus they lose their salvation. The ones in verse 15 bring forth fruit with patience, thus they keep their salvation. So how is it that you can conclude "that making salvation to be fruit impairs Gods ability to save? This parable just showed that bearing fruit has quite a bit to do with things.

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2011, 07:48 PM
To me, the statement is nonsensical. The word "alone" means "isolated from the others." To say that we are saved by grace alone, is to say that we are saved entirely by grace without faith or Christ or anything else. Or if we say we are saved by faith alone, it is understood that we saved apart from works, perhaps, but not apart from grace or Christ and yet we are saved by all three together not each of them alone.
Good... didn't have to go very far to see someone bring this up! :lol: The very word ALONE means by itself. Grace (by itself) or faith (by itself). To toss in "alone" for two different things... and say it is by these two different things "alone"..... doesn't work.

Butch5
Apr 6th 2011, 07:55 PM
How so? When we as sinners living lives unacceptable to God hear the word and believe, are we not required to change how we live or do we continue as we were?

Firstfruits

OH, I agree with you. However, when you said we have to live obediently you have added something to faith alone.

Butch5
Apr 6th 2011, 07:57 PM
Good... didn't have to go very far to see someone bring this up! :lol: The very word ALONE means by itself. Grace (by itself) or faith (by itself). To toss in "alone" for two different things... and say it is by these two different things "alone"..... doesn't work.

Not ot mention that the word "alone" isn't even there.

notuptome
Apr 6th 2011, 08:15 PM
Why then all those other passages that could only have meaning to a believer? Why did the authors waste all that time writing about things that weren't even remotely possible? You do know there's a lot of 'ifs' in the NT, right? What are all those for?

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


Take this passage for instance. This ccouldn't possibly be referring to anyone but a believer. And the point is, God can cut and will cut you off from the good olive tree if... Why in the world make threats like that if it weren't indeed possible? Also, how does one even get graffed into the good olive tree in the first place, if they weren't saved first?
It most certainly is not speaking about salvation. It is speaking of election or calling. It is talking about Israel and how their unbelief has them blinded while salvation is as a result is opened to Gentiles to whom salvation was not promised.

As a matter of fact, the very next verse answers the question, is this just a meaningless threat, or is God serious here?

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Notice the 'if' in that verse. That indicates conditional. Salvation is indeed conditional.
Your basic permise is fatally flawed so your conclusion is hopelessly incorrect. Gentiles are not immune to apostacy. God is not finished with Israel and one day they will see Christ and be saved. Zech 12:10 Currently they are receiving that for which they cried when they said crucify Him let His blood be upon us.

Salvation is by grace through faith. Christ has done all that is necessary to save all who come unto Him. John 3:19 tells us why many do not come but the fault is not with Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 6th 2011, 08:17 PM
Sure. "Whosoever will receive it" is the one with a humble and contrite Spirit. Those who are not receptive to His Grace do not receive it.
John 3:18-19

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 6th 2011, 08:24 PM
I'm not following you. If God is the farmer and he is tilling the soil, then not only is the condition of the soil consequential, but he is fully in charge of who gets saved and who doesn't.
We are speaking of the sower not the farmer. The sower would be the evangelist or preacher proclaiming the word of God. He sows the word of God everywhere not just in the plowed fields. Today do we witness to only those we feel are worthy? God saves some souls that seem too hard to save to us does He not? Even in the harshest fields God has an harvest. Think rcc, Judiasm, or islam very hard fields yet God saves even there. The word goes forth and accomplishes that to which God has purposed it. His word never returns to Him void.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

divaD
Apr 6th 2011, 08:32 PM
It most certainly is not speaking about salvation. It is speaking of election or calling. It is talking about Israel and how their unbelief has them blinded while salvation is as a result is opened to Gentiles to whom salvation was not promised.

Your basic permise is fatally flawed so your conclusion is hopelessly incorrect. Gentiles are not immune to apostacy. God is not finished with Israel and one day they will see Christ and be saved. Zech 12:10 Currently they are receiving that for which they cried when they said crucify Him let His blood be upon us.

Salvation is by grace through faith. Christ has done all that is necessary to save all who come unto Him. John 3:19 tells us why many do not come but the fault is not with Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger



I guess I'm not quite following you then. I would think being part of the branches of the good olive tree would be the same as being saved. And being cut off would be the same as being lost. Let me put it another way then. Is it possible to be saved without ever being part of the good olive tree? If yes, then please explain. If no, then how can someone still be saved if they get cut off?

notuptome
Apr 6th 2011, 08:35 PM
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Here it equates believing with being saved.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.


Here it says...which for a while believe. We were just told in the preceding verse that believing equtes to being saved.

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Even tho it doesn't say so in this verse, these obviously believed as well.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

But it also doesn't mention believing in this verse either. We know for a fact that they believed tho. I say this in order to show my previous point in relation to verse 14.

Notice the difference between verse 14 and 15. The ones in verse 14 bring no fruit to perfection, thus they lose their salvation. The ones in verse 15 bring forth fruit with patience, thus they keep their salvation. So how is it that you can conclude "that making salvation to be fruit impairs Gods ability to save? This parable just showed that bearing fruit has quite a bit to do with things.
You are assuming conclusions that are not supported in the text. I have known good men who were genuinely saved and due to testing they did not deal with properly they made shipwreck of their testimony. Divorcing their wives and shacking up with another woman and the like. One man with whom I was familiar was really on fire for the Lord for a while. His mother and father were long time Christians and never waivered from Christ. This man died young less than 60 years of age. I do not think for one moment he lost his salvation but I do think the Lord shortened his life because he was unrepentant. Same thing with his wife.

To take your position we would have to deem all those who claim to know Christ but attend the rcc or most old main line demnominations to be lost. Poor soil and they cannot grow to maturity. Places where they teach false doctrines like purgatory or believe that the bible only contains the word of God not is the word of God. Legalism if you don't do or not do you fall away and are lost. Flies in the face of all sufficient grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 6th 2011, 09:06 PM
I guess I'm not quite following you then. I would think being part of the branches of the good olive tree would be the same as being saved. And being cut off would be the same as being lost. Let me put it another way then. Is it possible to be saved without ever being part of the good olive tree? If yes, then please explain. If no, then how can someone still be saved if they get cut off?
John 1:11 Jesus came to His own things and His own people rejected Him. Jesus came to Israel not to the Gentile nations. God made His promises to Abraham but also said that through Abraham all the nations would be blessed. The olive tree in Rom 11 represents the blessings promised through Abraham. This is to the Jew first but because the Jew rejected the Messiah the blessing fell to the wild olive which is us Gentiles. We are made to partake of Gods grace because the Jews rejected it. We are not to become proud because while we are greatly blessed the day will come when Israel will be graft back in and even greater blessing will flow forth. When the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. It is not about salvation but about being chosen (elect) to be made partakers in Christ through grace. The first twelve verses of Romans 11 sets the context for what follows. As a result of being saved we delight in the full blessings of the good olive tree. When the Gentiles become as apostate as the Jews were at the time of Christ then they too will not be spared. That is when Christ will return.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

divaD
Apr 6th 2011, 09:34 PM
You are assuming conclusions that are not supported in the text. I have known good men who were genuinely saved and due to testing they did not deal with properly they made shipwreck of their testimony. Divorcing their wives and shacking up with another woman and the like. One man with whom I was familiar was really on fire for the Lord for a while. His mother and father were long time Christians and never waivered from Christ. This man died young less than 60 years of age. I do not think for one moment he lost his salvation but I do think the Lord shortened his life because he was unrepentant. Same thing with his wife.

To take your position we would have to deem all those who claim to know Christ but attend the rcc or most old main line demnominations to be lost. Poor soil and they cannot grow to maturity. Places where they teach false doctrines like purgatory or believe that the bible only contains the word of God not is the word of God. Legalism if you don't do or not do you fall away and are lost. Flies in the face of all sufficient grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger




I admit, you make a good point here. But how else is the parable to be understood? Look at it again.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away(aphistemi).
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


In verse 12 we see that that believing leads to being saved. In verse 13 we see that they believed for awhile but fell away. So what we now have to do is determine what fall away means. And since we already know that believing leads to being saved, the question is, can one fall away and still be saved?

Away..aphistemi

from apo - apo 575 and isthmi - histemi 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRGRK8.htm#S868

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from(aphistemi) the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Here it clearly says that some shall depart from the faith. Look at the reasons why. Do you then think these are still saved? Perhaps never saved? If the latter, then how did they depart from the faith, if they weren't at one time of the faith? This faith, it's specifically referring to Christianity, wouldn't you agree?

But getting back to Luke 8, verse 13 could be rendered like this.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation DEPART FROM THE FAITH.

This could be a valid conclusion, since the fact that they believe for awhile, this implies they were of the faith at one time.

notuptome
Apr 6th 2011, 10:17 PM
I admit, you make a good point here. But how else is the parable to be understood? Look at it again.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away(aphistemi).
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


In verse 12 we see that that believing leads to being saved. In verse 13 we see that they believed for awhile but fell away. So what we now have to do is determine what fall away means. And since we already know that believing leads to being saved, the question is, can one fall away and still be saved?
That is the question. After one believes he/she is sealed unto the day of redemption so one cannot lose their salvation. Eph 4:30 One can fall away in the sense that they fear the reproach of men more than they love Christ. How many Christians today will not speak of Christ at work for fear of losing a promotion or even their job?

Away..aphistemi

from apo - apo 575 and isthmi - histemi 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRGRK8.htm#S868

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from(aphistemi) the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Here it clearly says that some shall depart from the faith. Look at the reasons why. Do you then think these are still saved? Perhaps never saved? If the latter, then how did they depart from the faith, if they weren't at one time of the faith? This faith, it's specifically referring to Christianity, wouldn't you agree?
No these are apostates and they never received the word with joy like those in Luke. These know the truth but are not going to believe it. They love darkness rather than light. A world of difference in the heart between these.

But getting back to Luke 8, verse 13 could be rendered like this.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation DEPART FROM THE FAITH.

This could be a valid conclusion, since the fact that they believe for awhile, this implies they were of the faith at one time.
Where I disagree is that the ones in 1 Tim 4 never believed. One fell away due to testing the other fell away of self will or refusal to beleive. Those who are like babes in the faith can fall away if they are not cared for and fed from the word of God but they cannot be lost. These simply count the cost too extreme not knowing the exceeding reward for those who serve joyfully the Lord. They never know the joy of seeing others come to Christ but feel the pain of rejection by friends and family.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Apr 6th 2011, 10:34 PM
We are speaking of the sower not the farmer. The sower would be the evangelist or preacher proclaiming the word of God. He sows the word of God everywhere not just in the plowed fields. Today do we witness to only those we feel are worthy? God saves some souls that seem too hard to save to us does He not? Even in the harshest fields God has an harvest. Think rcc, Judiasm, or islam very hard fields yet God saves even there. The word goes forth and accomplishes that to which God has purposed it. His word never returns to Him void.

For the cause of Christ
RogerI don't see the distinction you are making between the farmer and the sower in the parable of Jesus. Regardless, the point of sowing the seed is for the farmer to get a crop. If he hires a sower (preacher, evangelist) to perform the sowing, the farmer doesn't get what he wants (a crop) unless the plants produce fruit. What does the fruit represent? It represents the salvation of the soul who perseveres in belief.

BroRog
Apr 6th 2011, 10:36 PM
You are assuming conclusions that are not supported in the text. I have known good men who were genuinely saved and due to testing they did not deal with properly they made shipwreck of their testimony.You did not know they were genuinely saved. No one is genuinely saved unless he perseveres under trial.

Slug1
Apr 7th 2011, 01:23 AM
I don't think Jesus meant to say that soils 2 and 3 were saved. They believed and they fell away but they weren't saved. In this parable, the fruit is salvation. Only the fourth soil leads to salvation.Belief in Christ saves a person. They believed, thus they were saved until they fell away.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 7th 2011, 01:40 AM
How can it not matter if we do not know what we are to observe as believers? How do we know if we are doing his will?

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

FirstfruitsThe gospel was mentioned not all that other stuff.

Slug1
Apr 7th 2011, 01:46 AM
What we see here is God trimming and pruning the living branches to produce more fruit. We see God removing the dead branches who had no life in them. We do not see God removing living branches from the vine.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger... really think about your statement here. You are wrong, the branches aren't "dead" as you are saying. They are just unfruitful.

For any of those branches to be on the vine, they must be "IN" Christ. So, yes... those in Christ but have since become unfruitful (does not bear fruit... not dead yet... dead is "YOUR" word so you're interpreting wrong from the get-go) are removed (He takes away), those bearing fruit are not remove but pruned for the production of more fruit.

So, you have to get something straight to be in alignment with scripture... they aren't dead YET. They are just unfruitful. Where have we heard that before? We can divide that right back to the parable of the Sower and one of the soil examples (# 3 I believe) of those being unfruitful.

So what happens?

You say they are already dead... as if they where put on the vine already dead. Not according to scripture. Clearly according to the doctrine you are following because you seem so sure in your explanation. Yet when I read the scriptures... they aren't dead, they are just "unfruitful" just like those in soil #3. Like I said, these scriptures divide each other for a fuller understanding.

So in the parable we are just given a fact... they became unfruitful. But this may lead a person to ask, so whats the big deal? Well, in dividing this with John 15... we understand the meaning of those from the soil #3 example given to us.

To be on the vine or In Christ, one must first be saved. If they were not saved, they would not be on the vine and would fall in the soil #1 example. Yet they are saved, or they would not be on the vine. Due to their becoming unfruitful we understand from John 15 EXACTLY what happens... HE TAKES AWAY. They get cut off and as we continue to read John 15, THEN they wither and get burned. So what does this mean? Judgement they get tossed in the fire EVEN after the fact they were once ON THE VINE. But they got removed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clearly those from soil #2 and #3 didn't abide in Christ. They started out in Christ (GOT SAVED), but didn't remain. The reason was because they were unfruitful.

Really read this next scripture: v6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

This is crucial... IF... If anyone does not abide in Me... Roger, to even be able to abide, a person must first be saved. Jesus is talking about saved people and v6 is a WARNING to them to abide. That means.... once you are saved... it's not secure because of you don't abide, YOU ARE CUT OFF!

v7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[b] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

IF... if you abide... this verse is not a warning but informing us what will happen IF, if a person abides.

For those who don't abide, what happens... see v6.

For those who do abide, what happens... see v7.

Both were on the vine to even have a CHANCE to abide and this is so crystal clear Roger.

However, the doctrine you follow doesn't allow you to see this or you do see this but have chosen to follow that doctrine and what it says is the truth instead of the truth of the Word of God as it's S-P-E-L-L-E-D out to us all.

Slug1
Apr 7th 2011, 02:15 AM
If soils 2-4 are all "initially saved", that completely discounts the condition of the soil. That interpretation of salvation reminds me of buying a car (I used to be in the car business).

4 people go in to buy a car. Person 1 wants a car, but has very little credit and what credit he does have is terrible. He leaves without a car. Person 2 has a good credit score, but very little credit. He buys the car, but the finance company doesn't approve the loan. He loses the car. Person 3 has plenty of credit, but a lot of bad credit. He buys the car, but the finance company doesn't approve the loan. He loses the car. Person 4 has plenty of really good credit. He buys the car and the finance company approves the loan. He keeps the car.

Salvation isn't Jesus tossing an offer out, waiting for people to buy it, and then hoping it sticks. The one who is saved is the one with the soil who receives the Gospel and bears fruit. It is the one whose Spirit is good for producing crop.

You are equating salvation with the seed taking hold. This is merely an interpretation and not the clear picture you paint, much less stating that those who don't agree are ignoring God and following man's doctrine. God has spread his seed all over the world and many have received it. Far fewer have had the heart to receive it in the manner that produces salvific Faith and Trust in Him.Soil #2 WAS fruitful until the world made them unfruitful. Look at John 15 to understand how a person can even BEGIN to bear fruit to then become unfruitful

A person not IN CHRIST can't EVER produce fruit for them to then EVER become unfruitful. So they MUST first be saved, be IN Christ (on the vine) to even be once considered bearing fruit, to then fall back into the the world and thus become unfruitful.

Soil #3 people can't become unfruitful if they NEVER produced fruit and the ONLY way to produce fruit is to be IN CHRIST.

So... they had to have been IN Christ and then due to the "cares" of the world and the world's deceitfulness... they got choked and became unfruitful.

The fact remains... they once were fruitful. Otherwise, they'd never be able to become unfruitful.

If they were never fruitful in the first place, then they'd be in the soil #1 example of the parable.

Slug1
Apr 7th 2011, 02:23 AM
You did not know they were genuinely saved. No one is genuinely saved unless he perseveres under trial.Soil #2 covers about those not persevering.

Again, a person CAN'T even begin a trial to test their perseverance unless they are saved. I can equate your statement here as to those from soil #1 being tested. However, those in soil #1 can't be tested for they were never saved and no need for a perseverance test... they are lost because they never believed, thus were never saved, thus no need for a test/trial.

#2 are saved, are tested and DON'T persevere.

#2 can't be tested unless they are saved first.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 7th 2011, 05:44 AM
Yes, "we are saved by hope", Romans 8:24. Which is a summation of previous chapters that we are saved by grace through faith without works because of duty.

BroRog
Apr 7th 2011, 05:45 AM
Belief in Christ saves a person. They believed, thus they were saved until they fell away.It's not that simple. Remember what James said? The devils believe too. Belief doesn't save a person; God saves a person.

BroRog
Apr 7th 2011, 05:53 AM
Soil #2 WAS fruitful until the world made them unfruitful. Look at John 15 to understand how a person can even BEGIN to bear fruit to then become unfruitful

A person not IN CHRIST can't EVER produce fruit for them to then EVER become unfruitful. So they MUST first be saved, be IN Christ (on the vine) to even be once considered bearing fruit, to then fall back into the the world and thus become unfruitful.

Soil #3 people can't become unfruitful if they NEVER produced fruit and the ONLY way to produce fruit is to be IN CHRIST.

So... they had to have been IN Christ and then due to the "cares" of the world and the world's deceitfulness... they got choked and became unfruitful.

The fact remains... they once were fruitful. Otherwise, they'd never be able to become unfruitful.

If they were never fruitful in the first place, then they'd be in the soil #1 example of the parable.I don't think you are getting all that from the parable. First of all, in the parable only one kind of soil allows a plant to grow to maturity to produce fruit and since perseverence until the end results in the "fruit", the fruit is salvation itself. Second, don't bring John 15 into this because John 15 is making a different point using a different metaphor. The parable of the sower teaches us that only a particular kind of heart will believe the word of God and end up being saved. The other hearts will not be saved.

BroRog
Apr 7th 2011, 05:57 AM
Soil #2 covers about those not persevering.

Again, a person CAN'T even begin a trial to test their perseverance unless they are saved. I can equate your statement here as to those from soil #1 being tested. However, those in soil #1 can't be tested for they were never saved and no need for a perseverance test... they are lost because they never believed, thus were never saved, thus no need for a test/trial.

#2 are saved, are tested and DON'T persevere.

#2 can't be tested unless they are saved first.Only the fourth soil produces a plant that will persevere. Saved people don't fail the testing of their faith. As Paul says in Romans 5, the testing of our faith leads to perseverance; perseverance leads to attestedness; and attestedness leads to hope. The opposite is also true. If the test does not lead to perseverance, then there is no hope.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 7th 2011, 06:01 AM
Good... didn't have to go very far to see someone bring this up! :lol: The very word ALONE means by itself. Grace (by itself) or faith (by itself). To toss in "alone" for two different things... and say it is by these two different things "alone"..... doesn't work.It doesn't seem like the OP was saying grace alone without Christ, or faith alone without Christ, or Christ alone without faith, or Christ alone without grace, or grace or faith without faith or grace. We could say it is "of faith, that it might be by grace", or "the gift by grace", or "if by grace, then", or "if I by grace be a partaker", or "For by grace are ye saved", or "purifying their hearts by faith", or "sanctified by faith", or "live by faith", or "access by faith", or "thou standest by faith" or "by faith ye stand", or "we walk by faith", but we don't expect every passage to say faith and grace, or faith, grace, and Christ, or any other order because what is obvious is obvious. It is nonsensical to bring up the alone factor for each because everyone knows one is useless with out the other.

Butch5
Apr 7th 2011, 12:33 PM
You are assuming conclusions that are not supported in the text. I have known good men who were genuinely saved and due to testing they did not deal with properly they made shipwreck of their testimony. Divorcing their wives and shacking up with another woman and the like. One man with whom I was familiar was really on fire for the Lord for a while. His mother and father were long time Christians and never waivered from Christ. This man died young less than 60 years of age. I do not think for one moment he lost his salvation but I do think the Lord shortened his life because he was unrepentant. Same thing with his wife.

To take your position we would have to deem all those who claim to know Christ but attend the rcc or most old main line demnominations to be lost. Poor soil and they cannot grow to maturity. Places where they teach false doctrines like purgatory or believe that the bible only contains the word of God not is the word of God. Legalism if you don't do or not do you fall away and are lost. Flies in the face of all sufficient grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Aren't you likewise making assumptions when you say, "I don't think for a moment"?

Butch5
Apr 7th 2011, 12:35 PM
It doesn't seem like the OP was saying grace alone without Christ, or faith alone without Christ, or Christ alone without faith, or Christ alone without grace, or grace or faith without faith or grace. We could say it is "of faith, that it might be by grace", or "the gift by grace", or "if by grace, then", or "if I by grace be a partaker", or "For by grace are ye saved", or "purifying their hearts by faith", or "sanctified by faith", or "live by faith", or "access by faith", or "thou standest by faith" or "by faith ye stand", or "we walk by faith", but we don't expect every passage to say faith and grace, or faith, grace, and Christ, or any other order because what is obvious is obvious. It is nonsensical to bring up the alone factor for each because everyone knows one is useless with out the other.

There is no "Alone" factor, the word alone is not there.

Butch5
Apr 7th 2011, 12:44 PM
Saved people don't fail the testing of their faith.

If saved people don't fail the test then why did Jesus give this command?

Revelation 2:10 ( KJV )
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Jesus commands them to "BE" faithful. The Greek word "Be" is an imperative, there would be no need to command them to be faithful if they couldn't fail the trials.

Butch5
Apr 7th 2011, 12:49 PM
John 1:11 Jesus came to His own things and His own people rejected Him. Jesus came to Israel not to the Gentile nations. God made His promises to Abraham but also said that through Abraham all the nations would be blessed. The olive tree in Rom 11 represents the blessings promised through Abraham. This is to the Jew first but because the Jew rejected the Messiah the blessing fell to the wild olive which is us Gentiles. We are made to partake of Gods grace because the Jews rejected it. We are not to become proud because while we are greatly blessed the day will come when Israel will be graft back in and even greater blessing will flow forth. When the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. It is not about salvation but about being chosen (elect) to be made partakers in Christ through grace. The first twelve verses of Romans 11 sets the context for what follows. As a result of being saved we delight in the full blessings of the good olive tree. When the Gentiles become as apostate as the Jews were at the time of Christ then they too will not be spared. That is when Christ will return.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If the Olive tree represents that promises made to Abraham and one is cut off from those promises how is it that one will still be saved?

Slug1
Apr 7th 2011, 02:14 PM
I don't think you are getting all that from the parable. First of all, in the parable only one kind of soil allows a plant to grow to maturity to produce fruit and since perseverence until the end results in the "fruit", the fruit is salvation itself. Second, don't bring John 15 into this because John 15 is making a different point using a different metaphor. The parable of the sower teaches us that only a particular kind of heart will believe the word of God and end up being saved. The other hearts will not be saved.When it comes to ANY growth... only God can do this. We are used to plant and water, God makes the growth happen.

Soil 2, 3, and 4 all have growth. That means all of those people accepted Christ and began to grow. Only one (#4) didn't fall away.

Slug1
Apr 7th 2011, 02:20 PM
It's not that simple. Remember what James said? The devils believe too. Belief doesn't save a person; God saves a person.Wow... we've been through this before BroRog.

Belief that Jesus is THE Savior compared to believing that Jesus is MY Savior... are way too different things.

Of course devils believe that Christ is the Savior... they just don't believe IN Christ as "their" Savior.

Belief IN Christ saves.

Do you know how many people out there in the world acknowledge Christ as THE Savior... many even go to church, many more don't. Are they saved in this belief?

I will say... no.

You know what "BELIEF" I mean as saving... John 3:15-18

BadDog
Apr 7th 2011, 02:58 PM
Have any of you heard the following?

We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by that last phrase, of course. But IMO, this is not sound theology. The last phrase makes it not "faith alone," or at least not by grace. I am not ignoring the concept (biblical IMO) that works are expected and do naturally follow faith. (Ephesians 2:8,9 and 10) But if by that 2nd phrase it means that real faith works, that's getting mighty close to salvation by faith plus works.

Comments?

BD

notuptome
Apr 7th 2011, 04:01 PM
I don't see the distinction you are making between the farmer and the sower in the parable of Jesus. Regardless, the point of sowing the seed is for the farmer to get a crop. If he hires a sower (preacher, evangelist) to perform the sowing, the farmer doesn't get what he wants (a crop) unless the plants produce fruit. What does the fruit represent? It represents the salvation of the soul who perseveres in belief.
Actually the fruit of the Spirit is listed for us in scripture. Gal 5:22

What does God want? God desires that our relationship with Him be restored. The relationship that sin severed in the garden. God wants us to love Him as children love their Father. God has never asked us to do great or mighty works for Him. God is the doer of mighty works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 7th 2011, 04:08 PM
You did not know they were genuinely saved. No one is genuinely saved unless he perseveres under trial.
We are genuinely saved by grace not perserverence. Perserverence is works and not grace. The Holy Spirit of God witnesses with our spirit that we are the Lords. There is a fellowship among the Lords people that is testified to by Gods Holy Spirit whereby we can be as certain as is humanly possible without usurping Gods soverign right to be Judge.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

watchinginawe
Apr 7th 2011, 04:11 PM
General comment to the thread:

Isn't the slogan really just an English translation and statement of three of the five solas? "Alone" is the English translation of the latin word "sola". Thus, we have:

Sola gratia - Grace alone
Sola fide - Faith alone
Solus Christus - Christ alone


Have any of you heard the following?

We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by that last phrase, of course. But IMO, this is not sound theology. The last phrase makes it not "faith alone," or at least not by grace. I am not ignoring the concept (biblical IMO) that works are expected and do naturally follow faith. (Ephesians 2:8,9 and 10) But if by that 2nd phrase it means that real faith works, that's getting mighty close to salvation by faith plus works.

Comments?

BD Hey BD. I am not particularly familiar with the statement and the intent, but perhaps it is as simple as saying that saving faith is dynamic and not static.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
...
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


Faith alters the actions (or works) that we otherwise would or would not have done. Faith is a continuous (abiding) agent of causation.

Paul asks the Corinthians to examine themselves to see if there is the evidence of faith. What is Paul suggesting here?

1 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

notuptome
Apr 7th 2011, 04:28 PM
Roger... really think about your statement here. You are wrong, the branches aren't "dead" as you are saying. They are just unfruitful.

For any of those branches to be on the vine, they must be "IN" Christ. So, yes... those in Christ but have since become unfruitful (does not bear fruit... not dead yet... dead is "YOUR" word so you're interpreting wrong from the get-go) are removed (He takes away), those bearing fruit are not remove but pruned for the production of more fruit.

So, you have to get something straight to be in alignment with scripture... they aren't dead YET. They are just unfruitful. Where have we heard that before? We can divide that right back to the parable of the Sower and one of the soil examples (# 3 I believe) of those being unfruitful.

So what happens?

You say they are already dead... as if they where put on the vine already dead. Not according to scripture. Clearly according to the doctrine you are following because you seem so sure in your explanation. Yet when I read the scriptures... they aren't dead, they are just "unfruitful" just like those in soil #3. Like I said, these scriptures divide each other for a fuller understanding.

So in the parable we are just given a fact... they became unfruitful. But this may lead a person to ask, so whats the big deal? Well, in dividing this with John 15... we understand the meaning of those from the soil #3 example given to us.

To be on the vine or In Christ, one must first be saved. If they were not saved, they would not be on the vine and would fall in the soil #1 example. Yet they are saved, or they would not be on the vine. Due to their becoming unfruitful we understand from John 15 EXACTLY what happens... HE TAKES AWAY. They get cut off and as we continue to read John 15, THEN they wither and get burned. So what does this mean? Judgement they get tossed in the fire EVEN after the fact they were once ON THE VINE. But they got removed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clearly those from soil #2 and #3 didn't abide in Christ. They started out in Christ (GOT SAVED), but didn't remain. The reason was because they were unfruitful.

Really read this next scripture: v6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

This is crucial... IF... If anyone does not abide in Me... Roger, to even be able to abide, a person must first be saved. Jesus is talking about saved people and v6 is a WARNING to them to abide. That means.... once you are saved... it's not secure because of you don't abide, YOU ARE CUT OFF!

v7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[b] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

IF... if you abide... this verse is not a warning but informing us what will happen IF, if a person abides.

For those who don't abide, what happens... see v6.

For those who do abide, what happens... see v7.

Both were on the vine to even have a CHANCE to abide and this is so crystal clear Roger.

However, the doctrine you follow doesn't allow you to see this or you do see this but have chosen to follow that doctrine and what it says is the truth instead of the truth of the Word of God as it's S-P-E-L-L-E-D out to us all.
Well you seem to have missed the simple fact that all men are dead in tresspass and sin until they are graft into the True Vine Who is Christ. Dead branches who were never part of the True Vine. These are gathered and cast into the fire. No man is in Christ until he is born again from above.

Vs 6 says if a man abide not in Me it does not say if a man ceases to abide in Me. There is no indication in the verse of a prior relationship only the absence of any relationship.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BadDog
Apr 7th 2011, 04:40 PM
Hey BD. I am not particularly familiar with the statement and the intent, but perhaps it is as simple as saying that saving faith is dynamic and not static.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
...
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


Faith alters the actions (or works) that we otherwise would or would not have done. Faith is a continuous (abiding) agent of causation.

Paul asks the Corinthians to examine themselves to see if there is the evidence of faith. What is Paul suggesting here?

1 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
WiA,

Well, if it was that simple (underlined idea), I'd have no problem with it at all. However, those who have used it ("We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone") mean it to say that if someone's conversion is not followed up by works that they are not saved. It is the classic "Lordship Salvation" position which essentially says that faith in Christ must lead to making Christ Lord of your life, or you're not really saved. I strongly oppose such positions, FWIW.

Sometimes it can be a subtle but significant distinction.

Thx,

BD

Slug1
Apr 7th 2011, 04:50 PM
Well you seem to have missed the simple fact that all men are dead in tresspass and sin until they are graft into the True Vine Who is Christ. Agreed... once they are, then the scriptures of John 15 is all about them.


Dead branches who were never part of the True Vine. These are gathered and cast into the fire. No man is in Christ until he is born again from above.OK, but those always dead aren't the ones this scripture is about. Branches aren't put on the vine dead Roger... you are trying to say that, you know that... don't you?

Yes, tares are gathered and tossed in the fire but they were never on the vine. They were and always will be dead.

But concerning branches... to even be a branch, you must be first saved and put on the vine and be In Christ.

Some get removed though as we read.



Vs 6 says if a man abide not in Me it does not say if a man ceases to abide in Me. There is no indication in the verse of a prior relationship only the absence of any relationship.This verse is in context of verses 1-8 and its established in the previous verses that Jesus us speaking about those in Him, or on the vine. You didn't really read what was explained... did you? :lol:


Really read this next scripture: v6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

This is crucial... IF... If anyone does not abide in Me... Roger, to even be able to abide, a person must first be saved. Jesus is talking about saved people and v6 is a WARNING to them to abide. That means.... once you are saved... it's not secure because of you don't abide, YOU ARE CUT OFF!

v7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[b] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

IF... if you abide... this verse is not a warning but informing us what will happen IF, if a person abides.

For those who don't abide, what happens... see v6.

For those who do abide, what happens... see v7.

Both were on the vine to even have a CHANCE to abide and this is so crystal clear Roger.

However, the doctrine you follow doesn't allow you to see this or you do see this but have chosen to follow that doctrine and what it says is the truth instead of the truth of the Word of God as it's S-P-E-L-L-E-D out to us all.

So it's not an absence of as you are trying to write off according to the doctrine you are following and the meaning that the doctrine is trying to mean. That scripture is crystal clear that Jesus is talking about those IN Him and the warning in v6 that they better continue to abide in Him or the description of what happens if they don't is given as a warning in v6.

watchinginawe
Apr 7th 2011, 05:02 PM
WiA,

Well, if it was that simple (underlined idea), I'd have no problem with it at all. However, those who have used it ("We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone") mean it to say that if someone's conversion is not followed up by works that they are not saved. It is the classic "Lordship Salvation" position which essentially says that faith in Christ must lead to making Christ Lord of your life, or you're not really saved. I strongly oppose such positions, FWIW.

Sometimes it can be a subtle but significant distinction.

Thx,

BD That seems like an unfortunate distinction then. Put me in the "Lordship Salvation" camp because I can't even begin to imagine how one would not own up to Jesus being their Lord and Savior if they are saved, and how that relationship would not make some kind of difference in one's life. But then again, I am just as much a "greasy grace" and "easy believism" kind of guy too.

notuptome
Apr 7th 2011, 05:05 PM
Agreed... once they are, then the scriptures of John 15 is all about them.

OK, but those always dead aren't the ones this scripture is about.

This verse is in context of verses 1-8 and its established in the previous verses that Jesus us speaking about those in Him, or on the vine.

So it's not an absence of as you are trying to write off according to the doctrine you are following and the meaning that the doctrine is trying to mean. That scripture is crystal clear that Jesus is talking about those IN Him and the warning in v6 that they better continue to abide in Him or the description of what happens if they don't is given as a warning in v6.
So if I understand your position based on this scripture you contend that one is saved by grace through faith and works? Without works as evidence of abiding in Christ one is lost?

Or do you beleive that one is saved by grace through faith unless one decides to turn away from heaven and go dive into the lake of fire?

Does your free will allow you to deny to God that which is His? 1 Cor 6:19-20

Is abiding in Christ at the will of man of the will of God?

From where I stand to not abide is to never have abided. That is in the context and does not violate countless other texts and the soverign will of God or the free will of man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 7th 2011, 05:16 PM
From where I stand to not abide is to never have abided. That is in the context and does not violate countless other texts and the soverign will of God or the free will of man.

This is the point of standing where a doctrine tells you to stand Roger.

You ask me all those questions from where the doctrine has you standing.

If you read those scriptures not from the place the doctrine has you standing, but instead from where God would have you stand and view His truth, those scriptures will show you exactly that. A person must be on the vine to even have a chance to be considered abiding. How does one get on the vine?

Then Jesus explains to us about what happens to those who don't continue to abide and about those who do continue to abide in Him.

But you don't see the scriptures according to God's truth because you are looking from where that doctrine has you standing and you only view THROUGH that doctrine. So you only see what it wants you to see.

It's meaning of scripture... not God's meaning of His Word.

BadDog
Apr 7th 2011, 05:32 PM
That seems like an unfortunate distinction then. Put me in the "Lordship Salvation" camp because I can't even begin to imagine how one would not own up to Jesus being their Lord and Savior if they are saved, and how that relationship would not make some kind of difference in one's life. But then again, I am just as much a "greasy grace" and "easy believism" kind of guy too.
WiA,

It's not "owning up" to Christ being our Lord and Savior - I agree - essential for salvation. Lordship Salvation is the idea that we must "make Him" Lord of our lives... that unless we are totally committed to Christ we are not really saved. It essentially does not accept the concept of a "carnal" (fleshly) Christian. They would say that we might stumble a bit, but if we do so for very long or to too great an extent, then our faith was not genuine.

BD

watchinginawe
Apr 7th 2011, 05:42 PM
WiA,

It's not "owning up" to Christ being our Lord and Savior - I agree - essential for salvation. Lordship Salvation is the idea that we must "make Him" Lord of our lives... that unless we are totally committed to Christ we are not really saved. It essentially does not accept the concept of a "carnal" (fleshly) Christian. They would say that we might stumble a bit, but if we do so for very long or to too great an extent, then our faith was not genuine.

BD I think I get the idea and the potential for legalism. But I am more alarmed at some of the assigned labels to these things.

I have developed a nose for these nuances of doctrine over the years and can see the concern. I've also had brushes with legalism and know the harm possible. That still doesn't sway me from my Pietist sympathies though. :P

notuptome
Apr 7th 2011, 07:09 PM
This is the point of standing where a doctrine tells you to stand Roger.
You find fault with standing on Christ the Rock of my salvation?

You ask me all those questions from where the doctrine has you standing.
Questions to promote meaningful thought.

If you read those scriptures not from the place the doctrine has you standing, but instead from where God would have you stand and view His truth, those scriptures will show you exactly that. A person must be on the vine to even have a chance to be considered abiding. How does one get on the vine?
A chance? There is uncertainty of Christs ability to save? Is not the promise of God true? According to scripture one is "on the vine" by grace through faith apart from works.

Then Jesus explains to us about what happens to those who don't continue to abide and about those who do continue to abide in Him.
That is not what is written in John 15. Nothing about "continue to abide" there is only abiding or not abiding. Continue is added by your doctrine not the word of God.

But you don't see the scriptures according to God's truth because you are looking from where that doctrine has you standing and you only view THROUGH that doctrine. So you only see what it wants you to see.
Highly judgmental on your part. You cannot demonstrate from Gods word how one can lose their salvation so you resort to demeaning sound biblical doctrine.

It's meaning of scripture... not God's meaning of His Word.
You lost me here. What did you want to say?

Are we saved by Gods will or the will of man? Are we saved by grace through faith and works? Can we know with certainty that we are saved?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 7th 2011, 07:11 PM
I think I get the idea and the potential for legalism. But I am more alarmed at some of the assigned labels to these things.

I have developed a nose for these nuances of doctrine over the years and can see the concern. I've also had brushes with legalism and know the harm possible. That still doesn't sway me from my Pietist sympathies though. :P
What kind of pie do you prefer? Where can I find a pietist church? Are there different flavors? Do some preach pie and ice cream? I assume coffee is standard fare.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Apr 7th 2011, 08:26 PM
If saved people don't fail the test then why did Jesus give this command?

Revelation 2:10 ( KJV )
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. There are too many variables in this passage to apply this passage to the question we are asking. First of all, Jesus is talking to a church of people, some of which are being saved and others of which are not being saved. According to other passages of scripture we know those whom God is saving will endure under trial.

In addition to that, the text is not clear that Jesus is commanding them to be faithful. Sometimes conditionals are descriptive rather than prescriptive. Those who remain faithful unto death will be given the crown of life.

BroRog
Apr 7th 2011, 08:29 PM
When it comes to ANY growth... only God can do this. We are used to plant and water, God makes the growth happen.

Soil 2, 3, and 4 all have growth. That means all of those people accepted Christ and began to grow. Only one (#4) didn't fall away.Of course. That's part of his point. Jesus added soils 2 and 3 in order to show us that not all people who believe will endure to the end and be saved.

watchinginawe
Apr 7th 2011, 08:38 PM
What kind of pie do you prefer? Where can I find a pietist church? Are there different flavors? Do some preach pie and ice cream? I assume coffee is standard fare.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I am partial to Apple Pietistism. :lol:

BroRog
Apr 7th 2011, 08:39 PM
Wow... we've been through this before BroRog.

Belief that Jesus is THE Savior compared to believing that Jesus is MY Savior... are way too different things.

Of course devils believe that Christ is the Savior... they just don't believe IN Christ as "their" Savior.

Belief IN Christ saves.

Do you know how many people out there in the world acknowledge Christ as THE Savior... many even go to church, many more don't. Are they saved in this belief?

I will say... no.

You know what "BELIEF" I mean as saving... John 3:15-18No one is completely saved right now. Those whom God is saving are saved provisionally now; as Paul says, those whom God is saving have a "down payment of the spirit" now, with the expectation of a hope for a future glorificaton. Not everyone who believes in Jesus has that inner marker of the spirit. The 2nd and 3rd soils did not.

BroRog
Apr 7th 2011, 08:45 PM
We are genuinely saved by grace not perserverence. Perserverence is works and not grace. The Holy Spirit of God witnesses with our spirit that we are the Lords. There is a fellowship among the Lords people that is testified to by Gods Holy Spirit whereby we can be as certain as is humanly possible without usurping Gods soverign right to be Judge.

For the cause of Christ
RogerAs watchinginawe points out, this is where our slogans fail us. Paul would never say that we are saved by grace not perseverence. Let's think of "grace" as a big umbrella under which we place things like justification, faith, santification, glorification, perseverence, etc. All of these fit under the umbrella of grace because God has his hand in all of them and more. God gets the credit for our perseverence on two counts: 1) he promises not to allow us to be tested beyond our ability to endure, and 2) he gives us his spirit as a downpayment, which will help us endure.

Slug1
Apr 7th 2011, 09:30 PM
Of course. That's part of his point. Jesus added soils 2 and 3 in order to show us that not all people who believe will endure to the end and be saved.So are we saved at the moment of believing in Christ or we are not?

The point of #2 and #3 was that there was growth... they are IN Christ, they are on the vine and experience growth (if they are not on the vine, there IS NO growth... until they fall away. By one example given to us by Jesus becasue of not persevering and the other was because of becoming unfruitful.

Slug1
Apr 7th 2011, 09:31 PM
No one is completely saved right now. Those whom God is saving are saved provisionally now; as Paul says, those whom God is saving have a "down payment of the spirit" now, with the expectation of a hope for a future glorificaton. Not everyone who believes in Jesus has that inner marker of the spirit. The 2nd and 3rd soils did not.You need to break this down, line by line, point by point... through scriptures.

BroRog
Apr 7th 2011, 10:01 PM
So are we saved at the moment of believing in Christ or we are not?

The point of #2 and #3 was that there was growth... they are IN Christ, they are on the vine and experience growth (if they are not on the vine, there IS NO growth... until they fall away. By one example given to us by Jesus becasue of not persevering and the other was because of becoming unfruitful.I think if we review the parable again, we will not find a vine. There is no vine. It isn't a parable about growth; it's a parable about endurance in belief. And only one soil produces a faith that will endure to the end.

No, contrary to Billy Graham and other evangelists, and contrary to a misapplication of Romans 10:9-10 we are NOT saved immediately after confessing a belief in Christ.

Butch5
Apr 7th 2011, 10:10 PM
There are too many variables in this passage to apply this passage to the question we are asking. First of all, Jesus is talking to a church of people, some of which are being saved and others of which are not being saved. According to other passages of scripture we know those whom God is saving will endure under trial.

Come on Rog, He's talking to believers. Even if there were some who didn't believe, his words are to those who do.

We know from other passages that they will endure? So, I guess all of those warnings are simple to fill up the empty pages?


In addition to that, the text is not clear that Jesus is commanding them to be faithful. Sometimes conditionals are descriptive rather than prescriptive. Those who remain faithful unto death will be given the crown of life.

It's an imperative, a command. So, the question remains, why would Jesus command them to do remain faithful if it was never in doubt?

BroRog
Apr 7th 2011, 10:57 PM
Come on Rog, He's talking to believers. Even if there were some who didn't believe, his words are to those who do.

We know from other passages that they will endure? So, I guess all of those warnings are simple to fill up the empty pages?I really don't see your point.


It's an imperative, a command. So, the question remains, why would Jesus command them to do remain faithful if it was never in doubt?Again, I don't understand your question. Why wouldn't Jesus command a church to remain faithful? And what makes you think that there was no doubt?

Butch5
Apr 7th 2011, 11:35 PM
I really don't see your point.

You said there were to many variables. He's talking to a church, surely there is at least one believer in the church.


Again, I don't understand your question. Why wouldn't Jesus command a church to remain faithful? And what makes you think that there was no doubt?

If those who God is saving "WILL" endure through the trials, why did Jesus command these believers to be faithful? You already said they would because God was saving them. It's like me telling my child, I am taking you to the supermarket Saturday, and then later telling my child make sure you go to the Market on Saturday. Why would I say that when it is I who is the one taking my child to the Market. It seems really pointless.

BroRog
Apr 7th 2011, 11:42 PM
You said there were to many variables. He's talking to a church, surely there is at least one believer in the church.Okay, but you realize that when talking to a group, it is understood that the group will not be a homogeneous group of believers. There will be both wheat and tares; there will be all four types of soils. A command to remain faithful applies to them all, even though Jesus knows that not all of them will be faithful.


If those who God is saving "WILL" endure through the trials, why did Jesus command these believers to be faithful?Why wouldn't he? What's the alternative?


You already said they would because God was saving them. It's like me telling my child, I am taking you to the supermarket Saturday, and then later telling my child make sure you go to the Market on Saturday. Why would I say that when it is I who is the one taking my child to the Market. It seems really pointless.You aren't God.

Illumined
Apr 8th 2011, 01:05 AM
What does "perseverance of the saints" mean to you?

Galatians 5:16
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 8th 2011, 01:20 AM
Both Matt 10:22, and Matt 24:13 telling us very clear that we ought to endure our faith throughout our life till the end(at our physical death or Christ comes).

In Hebrews 3:6 says: "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." . This tells us, we are God's eternal children, unless IF we endure our faith throughout our life to death or Christ comes. That means, if we(already saved Christians) start to departing from God, and continue in sins, by the time, we die(physical), we shall NOT be God's children!

Same with Heb. 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."

This telling us that we are belong to Christ's, unless IF we hold our faith from the beginning of salvation(Eph. 1:12) throughout to our death(physical). That means, we ought to endure and hold our faith unto Him throughout our life till our death. OR, what if, we turn away from Him, and continue in sins till our death, without repentance. Then, we would not belong to Christ's.

Our salvation is conditional. The Bible teaches it very clear.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 8th 2011, 01:28 AM
There is no "Alone" factor,There's not? It does not say saved by grace through faith and works of man. Works of faith occur in those that continue in grace through faith, but they are by grace, not man, and give glory to God. We are made the righteousness of God not the righteousness of man. Read post #39 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/223230-Saved-By-Grace-Alone-Through-Faith-Alone-In-Christ-Alone?p=2653813#post2653813). The old man is dead. Only the new man lives. So whether you sin or do righteousness it is the new man doing it. Understood properly, saved by grace through faith does not diminish works. Reward is in heaven. It just recognizes salvation is the Lords. That no matter how much works of man or works of faith a man has, only faith in Christ saves the man because all have sinned and abide in wrath without faith in the sacrifice.


the word alone is not there.As shown above it doesn't need to be, because the factor is there. From cover to cover the factor is there. Salvation has always been through faith. All have sinned, man has never deserved salvation, and a man that committed a sin could never do enough works to earn salvation. Most people get hung up on the emphasis of the Mosaic law, but they forget the Mosaic law didn't have any bearing on those before it was given, but The Law did. This causes them to miss the point being made. Their sin was considered sin before the Mosaic law because of law and that's why they died. They sinned against The Law of God written on their heart. Because of this God could justly send judgment. Without this God could not justly send judgment and their sin would not have been imputed, but it was, hence judgment. The use of the written Mosaic law to Israel is to draw our attention to The spiritual Law both Jew and Gentile have, that all have violated, not to make a doctrine that salvation is by grace through faith and works of man.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 8th 2011, 01:39 AM
Galatians 5:16
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.Yes but what does "Walk in the Spirit" mean?

BroRog
Apr 8th 2011, 02:02 AM
Both Matt 10:22, and Matt 24:13 telling us very clear that we ought to endure our faith throughout our life till the end(at our physical death or Christ comes).

In Hebrews 3:6 says: "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." . This tells us, we are God's eternal children, unless IF we endure our faith throughout our life to death or Christ comes. That means, if we(already saved Christians) start to departing from God, and continue in sins, by the time, we die(physical), we shall NOT be God's children!

Same with Heb. 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."

This telling us that we are belong to Christ's, unless IF we hold our faith from the beginning of salvation(Eph. 1:12) throughout to our death(physical). That means, we ought to endure and hold our faith unto Him throughout our life till our death. OR, what if, we turn away from Him, and continue in sins till our death, without repentance. Then, we would not belong to Christ's.

Our salvation is conditional. The Bible teaches it very clear.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!Paul teaches in Romans 5 and 8 that those "in Christ" will be saved and never fail to make it to the end. So then, when refering to those in Christ, a conditional statement like the one in Hebrews 3 carries with it an implied affirmative. "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." and those in Christ will.

notuptome
Apr 8th 2011, 12:22 PM
I am partial to Apple Pietistism. :lol:
That's a good pie but I would have thought that peach or pecan would be the local favorites. Of course my universalist outlook toward pietistism I find it hard to find a bad pie although rhubarb and shoefly are only for desparate situations.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 8th 2011, 12:39 PM
As watchinginawe points out, this is where our slogans fail us. Paul would never say that we are saved by grace not perseverence. Let's think of "grace" as a big umbrella under which we place things like justification, faith, santification, glorification, perseverence, etc. All of these fit under the umbrella of grace because God has his hand in all of them and more. God gets the credit for our perseverence on two counts: 1) he promises not to allow us to be tested beyond our ability to endure, and 2) he gives us his spirit as a downpayment, which will help us endure.
I would rather see grace as it is not as an umbrella which it ain't.

Eph 2:4-5 But God, Who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us, together with Christ (by grace ye are saved) Note we are saved not provisionally saved.

We are subject to tribulations and trials not to test our ability to persevere but to draw us closer to Christ. To make us more dependent upon the provision of God. Heb 12:5-8

God gives us the Holy Spirit as a seal unto the day of redemption. Eph 4:30

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 8th 2011, 12:45 PM
I think if we review the parable again, we will not find a vine. There is no vine. It isn't a parable about growth; it's a parable about endurance in belief. And only one soil produces a faith that will endure to the end.

No, contrary to Billy Graham and other evangelists, and contrary to a misapplication of Romans 10:9-10 we are NOT saved immediately after confessing a belief in Christ.
Then the Phillipian jailer was not saved. Acts 16:30-31

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 01:20 PM
Paul teaches in Romans 5 and 8 that those "in Christ" will be saved and never fail to make it to the end. So then, when refering to those in Christ, a conditional statement like the one in Hebrews 3 carries with it an implied affirmative. "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." and those in Christ will.

Will be saved from what?

Firstfruits

Slug1
Apr 8th 2011, 03:13 PM
I think if we review the parable again, we will not find a vine. There is no vine. It isn't a parable about growth; it's a parable about endurance in belief. And only one soil produces a faith that will endure to the end.

No, contrary to Billy Graham and other evangelists, and contrary to a misapplication of Romans 10:9-10 we are NOT saved immediately after confessing a belief in Christ.I don't recall if it's in this thread but I explained how to reach a deeper understanding of scripture, a peson must be led by the Holy Spirit to divide scripture with scripture and allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate all the scriptures. When this parable is divided with John 15, that deeper understanding can be reached.

If these scriptures are viewed through a doctrine such as the OSAS doctrine, God's meaning will not be reached. If these scriptures are viewed through the NOSAS doctrine, God's meaning will not be reached.

If these scriptures are simply read seeking God's meaning... His truth will be reached and understood.

BroRog
Apr 8th 2011, 03:16 PM
I would rather see grace as it is not as an umbrella which it ain't.I don't understand. Are you saying that your belief is based on what you prefer to believe?


We are subject to tribulations and trials not to test our ability to persevere but to draw us closer to Christ. To make us more dependent upon the provision of God. Heb 12:5-8I wasn't talking about discipline; I was talking about the testing of our faith. These are two different things.



1Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be [B]found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

James 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have [its] perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. . . . 12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which [the Lord] has promised to those who love Him.

Romans 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


Three different apostles talk about the same thing -- the testing of our faith. And each of them say that when our faith has been tested and found to be "approved" we can know that we will be found to be among the saints that Christ takes with him; we will receive life, praise, glory and honor.

BroRog
Apr 8th 2011, 03:22 PM
I don't recall if it's in this thread but I explained how to reach a deeper understanding of scripture, a peson must be led by the Holy Spirit to divide scripture with scripture and allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate all the scriptures. When this parable is divided with John 15, that deeper understanding can be reached.This is exactly how NOT to interpret the scriptures and leads to error. Whoever taught you this should be ashamed of himself and if I were you, I would run as fast as possible away from this teaching.


If these scriptures are viewed through a doctrine such as the OSAS doctrine, God's meaning will not be reached. If these scriptures are viewed through the NOSAS doctrine, God's meaning will not be reached.Why would we do either one? We don't ever read scripture through a doctrine. Our goal is to learn from Jesus and the apostles.


If these scriptures are simply read seeking God's meaning... His truth will be reached and understood.This is a worthy goal, which is not compatible with what you said above concerning John 15.

Slug1
Apr 8th 2011, 03:27 PM
This is exactly how NOT to interpret the scriptures and leads to error. Whoever taught you this should be ashamed of himself and if I were you, I would run as fast as possible away from this teaching.
OK... correct my mistake in allowing the Holy Spirit to lead me through scripture and allowing Him to illuminate God's truth and meaning of scripture.

BroRog
Apr 8th 2011, 03:55 PM
OK... correct my mistake in allowing the Holy Spirit to lead me through scripture and allowing Him to illuminate God's truth and meaning of scripture.

If something or someone told you to superimpose John 15 over the parable of the sower, it wasn't the Holy Spirit.

Slug1
Apr 8th 2011, 04:08 PM
If something or someone told you to superimpose John 15 over the parable of the sower, it wasn't the Holy Spirit.That doesn't help BroRog. Seriously... it don't.

Read that parable of the Sower, read John 15:1-8... read the parable of the Barren Fig Tree... allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate the meaning of how all these scriptures bring into understanding... God's truth.

Don't view through any doctrine... only as led by the Holy Spirit.

notuptome
Apr 8th 2011, 05:11 PM
I don't understand. Are you saying that your belief is based on what you prefer to believe?
I can only believe in Gods grace as it is displayed in scripture. 1 Pet 1:3-5 describes a complete salvation provided by God. Especially that we are kept by the power of God.

I wasn't talking about discipline; I was talking about the testing of our faith. These are two different things.



1Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be [B]found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

James 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have [its] perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. . . . 12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which [the Lord] has promised to those who love Him.

Romans 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


Three different apostles talk about the same thing -- the testing of our faith. And each of them say that when our faith has been tested and found to be "approved" we can know that we will be found to be among the saints that Christ takes with him; we will receive life, praise, glory and honor.
Three different apostles are talking about the same thing only it is not what you are talking about. What about Job?

Tribulation worketh patience and patience wisdom. We all need to be refined and have the dross removed. Tribulation is not always due to disobedience but it always works for our good. I believe you are trying to make a distinction in tribulations goal that is not there. It seems natural to us that when we have trouble it is because we have in some manner failed. This is not true. The pruning process in John 15 is to make us better not to punish us. Same with the Heb 12 vs. We must allow God to refine us that we can be used of Him. Gods desire is to bless us not punish us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RollTide21
Apr 8th 2011, 05:28 PM
That doesn't help BroRog. Seriously... it don't.

Read that parable of the Sower, read John 15:1-8... read the parable of the Barren Fig Tree... allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate the meaning of how all these scriptures bring into understanding... God's truth.

Don't view through any doctrine... only as led by the Holy Spirit.Slug...just because the Holy Spirit convicted you to turn from a lifestyle of sin and is currently using you in ministry doesn't mean that He was convicting you that you had lost your salvation. You said that, when you were in your rebellious stage, you believe you would have gone to Hell had you died. Not only does that contradict Hebrews 6:4, but it doesn't make sense that God was convicting a person who was lost.

notuptome
Apr 8th 2011, 05:31 PM
That doesn't help BroRog. Seriously... it don't.
No disrespect but I found it mildly amusing. It would help a great deal if you would listen to what his is saying.

Read that parable of the Sower, read John 15:1-8... read the parable of the Barren Fig Tree... allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate the meaning of how all these scriptures bring into understanding... God's truth.
Ticklish problem. Each believes it is the Holy Spirit illuminating the scriptures and revealing the truth yet there is a wide divergence of positions. Problematic for sure.

Don't view through any doctrine... only as led by the Holy Spirit.
You are a guilty as anyone of forcing your predetermined "isms" on the scriptures. Doctrine is determined through the scriptures and the illumination of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit only speaks that which He has heard from the Father. The Holy Spirit hears what God has said in the word of God. The Holy Spirit is not making stuff as He goes. The Holy Spirit is disciplined to operate only within the confines of Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

episkopos
Apr 8th 2011, 06:16 PM
Although there is truth to the statement in the OP, I can't help but think that so many will read it in a way that denies the power in the gospel.


In other words many will read the statement to mean something like this.

We are saved through a blanket non-responsibility for sin, through our own belief in someone we have read about called Jesus.

Rather grace is the power of God to accomplish the impossible, to live as Christ and overcome the world through Him. Our belief has nothing to do with the active power of faith that keeps us in a true fellowship with the risen Christ.

BroRog
Apr 8th 2011, 06:33 PM
That doesn't help BroRog. Seriously... it don't.Well, I'm trying to help you the best way I know how.


Read that parable of the Sower, read John 15:1-8... read the parable of the Barren Fig Tree... allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate the meaning of how all these scriptures bring into understanding... God's truth.I am being led by the Holy Spirit. All three of these passages are making three different points. If we moosh them together we are immorally using the Bible against its intended use.

BroRog
Apr 8th 2011, 06:50 PM
I can only believe in Gods grace as it is displayed in scripture. 1 Pet 1:3-5 describes a complete salvation provided by God. Especially that we are kept by the power of God. Yes, of course.


Three different apostles are talking about the same thing only it is not what you are talking about. What about Job?I don't understand the question. What does Job have to do with the discussion?


Tribulation worketh patience and patience wisdom. We all need to be refined and have the dross removed. Tribulation is not always due to disobedience but it always works for our good. I believe you are trying to make a distinction in tribulations goal that is not there. It seems natural to us that when we have trouble it is because we have in some manner failed. This is not true. The pruning process in John 15 is to make us better not to punish us. Same with the Heb 12 vs. We must allow God to refine us that we can be used of Him. Gods desire is to bless us not punish us.I didn't say anything about John 15, and I'm not sure what point you are making here. You seem to be chaffing at my suggestion that a person who makes a confession of faith is not necessarily saved. We are discussing this within the context of Jesus' parable about the four soils and the sower. I contend that the only soil that is saved is the fourth soil. Soils 2 and 3 believed, yes. But they weren't being saved. We know from other passages of scripture that being saved is an intimate process between God and the child of God, and that believing his word is but one marker identifying that person as being one of his. There are other markers also.

Not only does a saved person believe that Jesus is the Christ, but he (or she) is willing to forgive others, is humble, has a good heart, is single minded rather than double minded, is being led by the Spirit, has the spirit of Christ, seeks first the kingdom of God, has repented, loves God, fears God, and loves other believers who follow Christ. There are many markers that identify a child of God, and faith is but one of them.

notuptome
Apr 8th 2011, 08:15 PM
Yes, of course.
Hmmm...OK for now.

I don't understand the question. What does Job have to do with the discussion?
Why was Jobs faith tested? God knew Job would not fail. Job did nothing wrong yet great tribulation fell upon him. In th eend Job had a much better relationship than when he started. Job 23:10

I didn't say anything about John 15, and I'm not sure what point you are making here. You seem to be chaffing at my suggestion that a person who makes a confession of faith is not necessarily saved. We are discussing this within the context of Jesus' parable about the four soils and the sower. I contend that the only soil that is saved is the fourth soil. Soils 2 and 3 believed, yes. But they weren't being saved. We know from other passages of scripture that being saved is an intimate process between God and the child of God, and that believing his word is but one marker identifying that person as being one of his. There are other markers also.
At the heart of the parable of the sower we see that Gods word is sown worldwide not only in plowed fields. So powerful is Gods word that even in conditions that we see as hostile to life Gods word produces life. Soils 2 and 3 are hostile environments to life yet life springs forth. It is the divine purpose and plan of Gods word to produce life. I find it unfair to conclude that the life in hostile soils dies and is lost. What of souls that come to Christ but never have any real opportunity to grow in Christ. Perhaps in a country where bibles are almost unknown and it is life threatening to speak of Christ. God can save a soul from a simple bible tract or even a passing oral witness from John 3:16. Neither of these are sufficient to disciple a new Christian in the faith but they can produce a saving knowledge of Christ.

Not only does a saved person believe that Jesus is the Christ, but he (or she) is willing to forgive others, is humble, has a good heart, is single minded rather than double minded, is being led by the Spirit, has the spirit of Christ, seeks first the kingdom of God, has repented, loves God, fears God, and loves other believers who follow Christ. There are many markers that identify a child of God, and faith is but one of them.
True we should expect these evidences of salvation in one who makes a profession but what of the theif on the cross? What of the arab who reads a gospel tract received from a soldier and never receives a bible or any biblical encouragement? Do we write these off because they do not meet our expectations? If so where do we draw the line? Slippery slope indeed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
Apr 8th 2011, 09:34 PM
Okay, but you realize that when talking to a group, it is understood that the group will not be a homogeneous group of believers. There will be both wheat and tares; there will be all four types of soils. A command to remain faithful applies to them all, even though Jesus knows that not all of them will be faithful.

That argument is irrelevant. Jesus is talk to believers, The words He speaks are intended for the believer, If there was 1, 10, or 10,000 believers in the church it doesn't matter, His words are still for those hwo believe.


Why wouldn't he? What's the alternative?

There would be no need for the statement, after all, those who God is saving (according to your statement) will endure and those who don't really believe (if you will) aren't going to endure anyway, if Jesus know they aren't going to endure because they don't really believe, what point is there is giving them a command to remain faithful? If what you said is true there is no need for the command to remain faithful



You aren't God.

So, my analogy is correct then.

BroRog
Apr 8th 2011, 10:07 PM
Hmmm...OK for now.

Why was Jobs faith tested? God knew Job would not fail. Job did nothing wrong yet great tribulation fell upon him. In th eend Job had a much better relationship than when he started. Job 23:10 The testing of our faith is not for God, but for our sake. God knows that when he tests our faith that we will pass. As James says, "Let no one say when he is tested, "I am being seduced by God . . ."


At the heart of the parable of the sower we see that Gods word is sown worldwide not only in plowed fields. So powerful is Gods word that even in conditions that we see as hostile to life Gods word produces life. Soils 2 and 3 are hostile environments to life yet life springs forth. It is the divine purpose and plan of Gods word to produce life. I find it unfair to conclude that the life in hostile soils dies and is lost.
You may think it is unfair, but that is what Jesus said. Only the fourth soil produces a crop that the farmer wants.


What of souls that come to Christ but never have any real opportunity to grow in Christ. Perhaps in a country where bibles are almost unknown and it is life threatening to speak of Christ. God can save a soul from a simple bible tract or even a passing oral witness from John 3:16. Neither of these are sufficient to disciple a new Christian in the faith but they can produce a saving knowledge of Christ.

True we should expect these evidences of salvation in one who makes a profession but what of the theif on the cross? What of the arab who reads a gospel tract received from a soldier and never receives a bible or any biblical encouragement? Do we write these off because they do not meet our expectations? If so where do we draw the line? Slippery slope indeed.

For the cause of Christ
RogerIn Jesus' interpretation of the parable, he says that the fourth soil endured unto the end because he (or she) had a good and honest heart. We are being saved, not because we confess faith in Jesus Christ or pass a test of faith, or anything like that. We are being saved because we have a good and honest heart. Anyone with this kind of heart will confess Jesus Christ and pass a test of faith. But even if such a person came to belief a minute before his death, or if such a person were stuck out in the middle of a remote location where they could not hear the gospel message, if God is saving that person he or she will have the kind of heart that would have responded positively they heard the gospel and would have endured to the end.

BroRog
Apr 8th 2011, 10:33 PM
That argument is irrelevant. Jesus is talk to believers, The words He speaks are intended for the believer, If there was 1, 10, or 10,000 believers in the church it doesn't matter, His words are still for those hwo believe.Jesus says to let the wheat and the tares grow up together. When writing to a church, one is writing to both wheat and tares.


There would be no need for the statement, after all, those who God is saving (according to your statement) will endure and those who don't really believe (if you will) aren't going to endure anyway, if Jesus know they aren't going to endure because they don't really believe, what point is there is giving them a command to remain faithful?But Jesus isn't speaking to them individually. Yes, if Jesus could know in advance that a particular person would always be faithful, then he wouldn't need to command it. But Jesus isn't talking to an individual, he is talking to a group of people.


So, my analogy is correct then.No, not at all. You and your son are on the same ontological plane of existence. You do not sovereignly determine your son's character, heart, personality, psychological disposition, circumstances, etc. Whereas God does.

notuptome
Apr 9th 2011, 01:16 PM
The testing of our faith is not for God, but for our sake. God knows that when he tests our faith that we will pass. As James says, "Let no one say when he is tested, "I am being seduced by God . . ."
James is speaking about being tempted to sin not about receiveing tribulation to draw us closer to the Lord.

You may think it is unfair, but that is what Jesus said. Only the fourth soil produces a crop that the farmer wants. No it is your understanding of what Jesus said. God wants all men to be saved and that would include those who are not able to grow to full maturity.

In Jesus' interpretation of the parable, he says that the fourth soil endured unto the end because he (or she) had a good and honest heart. We are being saved, not because we confess faith in Jesus Christ or pass a test of faith, or anything like that. We are being saved because we have a good and honest heart. Anyone with this kind of heart will confess Jesus Christ and pass a test of faith. But even if such a person came to belief a minute before his death, or if such a person were stuck out in the middle of a remote location where they could not hear the gospel message, if God is saving that person he or she will have the kind of heart that would have responded positively they heard the gospel and would have endured to the end.
You are assuming a great deal in your conclusions about this parable. We are not being saved we are saved when we call upon Christ to save us. Saved and sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph 4:30

The heart of man is desparately wicked and who can know it. Jer 17:9 The solution is Ps 51:10 God creating in us a clean heart. We do not gradually become a new creature in Christ. We become a new creature in Christ by the entrance of the Holy Spirit into our heart. 2 Cor 5:17 The life we now live after our new birth in Christ we live by the faith of Jesus Christ. Gal 2:20 All of our life experiences teach us to trust Christ more.

Fear of losing ones salvation would surely paralize ones ability to minister to others.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Apr 9th 2011, 04:35 PM
James is speaking about being tempted to sin not about receiveing tribulation to draw us closer to the Lord.On the contrary, James, like Paul and Peter, is talking about the testing of our faith. For one thing, he tells us to count it all joy, which he wouldn't do if we were being seduced by the devil. Next, he talks about asking God for wisdom and that a double minded man wouldn't ask for wisdom but not expect testing because wisdom comes through testing. Finally he talks about perseverering under trial, and how such a person will recieve the crown of life.


No it is your understanding of what Jesus said. God wants all men to be saved and that would include those who are not able to grow to full maturity.
Actually, this is one parable that Jesus interprets himself. He tells us what the parable means. You and I don't have to interpret the parable ourselves, he does it for us.

The first soil represents those who heard the word but didn't understand it and they didn't believe it. The second soil represents those who heard the word, but were shallow and not commited and fell away. When Jesus says a man falls away he means that the man no longer believes the word and that man is in the same condition as the man who didn't initially believe. It doesn't matter if a man doesn't believe when he first hears the word, or the second man changes his mind later and doesn't believe. In any case, neither one of them believe. God is not saving unbelievers. God is only saving those who continue to believe.


You are assuming a great deal in your conclusions about this parable. We are not being saved we are saved when we call upon Christ to save us. Saved and sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph 4:30 Yes, of course. Everyone whom God is saving he seals unto the day of redemption; to our slogan we can add: salvation by "sealing alone." Unless God seals a person unto redemption, he will not be saved. Those whom God has not sealed unto a day of redemption will not be saved.


The heart of man is desparately wicked and who can know it. Jer 17:9 The solution is Ps 51:10 God creating in us a clean heart. We do not gradually become a new creature in Christ. We become a new creature in Christ by the entrance of the Holy Spirit into our heart. 2 Cor 5:17 The life we now live after our new birth in Christ we live by the faith of Jesus Christ. Gal 2:20 All of our life experiences teach us to trust Christ more. Here is another part we can add to our slogan: salvation by "new birth alone." Only those whom God has given this new birth will be saved. Those who have not been given this new birth will not be saved.

What is that so far? Salvation by "faith alone, sealing alone, new birth alone."


Fear of losing ones salvation would surely paralyze ones ability to minister to others. What about fear?

episkopos
Apr 9th 2011, 04:39 PM
Fear of losing ones salvation would surely paralyze ones ability to minister to others.

Does fear of losing a race make the contender more despondent...or does it spur on the true athlete to excel and run with all he/she has?

notuptome
Apr 9th 2011, 06:59 PM
On the contrary, James, like Paul and Peter, is talking about the testing of our faith. For one thing, he tells us to count it all joy, which he wouldn't do if we were being seduced by the devil. Next, he talks about asking God for wisdom and that a double minded man wouldn't ask for wisdom but not expect testing because wisdom comes through testing. Finally he talks about perseverering under trial, and how such a person will recieve the crown of life.
James 1:13-15 ..when lust hath conceived it bringeth forth sin...not the same thing as enduring testing from persecution because we name the name of Christ.

Actually, this is one parable that Jesus interprets himself. He tells us what the parable means. You and I don't have to interpret the parable ourselves, he does it for us.

The first soil represents those who heard the word but didn't understand it and they didn't believe it. The second soil represents those who heard the word, but were shallow and not commited and fell away. When Jesus says a man falls away he means that the man no longer believes the word and that man is in the same condition as the man who didn't initially believe. It doesn't matter if a man doesn't believe when he first hears the word, or the second man changes his mind later and doesn't believe. In any case, neither one of them believe. God is not saving unbelievers. God is only saving those who continue to believe.
That is not what it says. You are adding that from your own perspective. It only goes so far as to say they did not mature it does not say they were lost.

Yes, of course. Everyone whom God is saving he seals unto the day of redemption; to our slogan we can add: salvation by "sealing alone." Unless God seals a person unto redemption, he will not be saved. Those whom God has not sealed unto a day of redemption will not be saved.

Here is another part we can add to our slogan: salvation by "new birth alone." Only those whom God has given this new birth will be saved. Those who have not been given this new birth will not be saved.

What is that so far? Salvation by "faith alone, sealing alone, new birth alone."
Your tone betrays your position. Perhaps you should find another stawman to slay.

What about fear?
If one truely believes that he/she could be lost again and perish in everlasting condemnation there is no way any risk could be taken. So terrible are the consequences that one cannot conceive any risk that would be worth the chance. Peace is knowing one is sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. What should a man give in exchange for his soul?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Apr 9th 2011, 07:35 PM
James 1:13-15 ..when lust hath conceived it bringeth forth sin...not the same thing as enduring testing from persecution because we name the name of Christ.Yes, but remember the verse you quoted comes from a portion of James discourse in which he is drawing a distinction between the testing God does, and the testing Satan does. But the focus is on the testing God brings. In that discourse James reminds his readers, "Let no one say when he is tested, "I am being seduced by God . . ." When God tests us, it's so that we might gain confidence in the genineness of our faith. When Satan tests us (tempts us) he is trying to destroy us, causing us to resist God. James is saying that when God tests us, he isn't trying to destroy us as Satan would. The testing of our faith brings wisdom as he says earlier.


That is not what it says. You are adding that from your own perspective. It only goes so far as to say they did not mature it does not say they were lost.Yes, that is what Jesus means when he says they "fell away." They are lost.


Your tone betrays your position. Perhaps you should find another stawman to slay.What tone?


If one truely believes that he/she could be lost again and perish in everlasting condemnation there is no way any risk could be taken. So terrible are the consequences that one cannot conceive any risk that would be worth the chance. Peace is knowing one is sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.Who said anything about being lost again? The testing of our faith is meant to give us the kind of assurance and peace that you mentioned. This is why James says that the testing of our faith brings us joy. It isn't as if being tested is joyful. Being tested is hard and painful. But after the test results in endurance, we gain confidence in the genineness of our faith and this new found confidence brings us joy. Peter says the testing of our faith is more precious than gold (and believe me I could use some gold right now) because when our faith has been confirmed as being real faith, we know that we have the faith that will endure; and since we know that we have the faith that will endure, we know that we will be glorified with Christ when he returns. Read Peter and James again and see if you don't find hope and comfort in their words.

And p.s. there is no tone from me. We are on the same side okay? :)

notuptome
Apr 9th 2011, 09:21 PM
Yes, but remember the verse you quoted comes from a portion of James discourse in which he is drawing a distinction between the testing God does, and the testing Satan does. But the focus is on the testing God brings. In that discourse James reminds his readers, "Let no one say when he is tested, "I am being seduced by God . . ." When God tests us, it's so that we might gain confidence in the genineness of our faith. When Satan tests us (tempts us) he is trying to destroy us, causing us to resist God. James is saying that when God tests us, he isn't trying to destroy us as Satan would. The testing of our faith brings wisdom as he says earlier.
Tribulation brings wisdom and wisdom patience. Our Lord Jesus was tested in all ways buffeted by His own people and tempted by the devil to give in to His fleshly passions. We expect both kinds of testing but one we flee the other proves our testimony for Gods glory.

Yes, that is what Jesus means when he says they "fell away." They are lost.
There will be many marginal Christians in the kingdom. Paul never said the fellow in 1 Cor 5 was lost despite the open sin in which he was living. Paul said to deliver his flesh to satan for destruction that his spirit might be saved. This man fell away but no sentence of condemnation was passed upon him.

Who said anything about being lost again? The testing of our faith is meant to give us the kind of assurance and peace that you mentioned. This is why James says that the testing of our faith brings us joy. It isn't as if being tested is joyful. Being tested is hard and painful. But after the test results in endurance, we gain confidence in the genineness of our faith and this new found confidence brings us joy. Peter says the testing of our faith is more precious than gold (and believe me I could use some gold right now) because when our faith has been confirmed as being real faith, we know that we have the faith that will endure; and since we know that we have the faith that will endure, we know that we will be glorified with Christ when he returns. Read Peter and James again and see if you don't find hope and comfort in their words.

And p.s. there is no tone from me. We are on the same side okay? :)
Any possibility of falling away in the sense that we lose our salvation is more than can be borne. Having been enlightened as to the terrible nature of hell and the wonderful nature of heaven to allow that anything can separate us from the Lord is beyond the pale.

The Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are the Lords. We live by the faith of Jesus Christ not by our frail and pathetic faith. Faith that we receive through the hearing of Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Apr 9th 2011, 11:29 PM
Any possibility of falling away in the sense that we lose our salvation is more than can be borne.I don't know about that, but I agree that those whom God is saving will not lose that salvation.


The Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are the Lords. We live by the faith of Jesus Christ not by our frail and pathetic faith. Faith that we receive through the hearing of Gods word.
Amen.

Butch5
Apr 11th 2011, 03:47 PM
Jesus says to let the wheat and the tares grow up together. When writing to a church, one is writing to both wheat and tares.[/qyote]

I think your missing my point. The sounds coming out of Jesus' mouth would go to anyone who heard them. However, they are intended for the one who believes.

[QUOTE]But Jesus isn't speaking to them individually. Yes, if Jesus could know in advance that a particular person would always be faithful, then he wouldn't need to command it. But Jesus isn't talking to an individual, he is talking to a group of people.

Yes, a whole group of people. But again, His words are intended for the believer. The one who doesn't believe cannot remain faithful since he isn't "In Christ". So, the words are meant for the believer, whether there are unbelievers present or not is irrelevant. Jesus commands them to remain faithful, the unbelievers aren't faithful, therefore the words are to the believer. If as you say the believer is being saved by God and will definitely endure, there is "NO" reason for Jesus to make that statement.


No, not at all. You and your son are on the same ontological plane of existence. You do not sovereignly determine your son's character, heart, personality, psychological disposition, circumstances, etc. Whereas God does.

That's irrelevant. If I am taking my child to School tomorrow, why would I tell my child, make sure you go to school tomorrow? I wouldn't, why because I am taking the child. There is no need for me to tell my child to do something that I myself am doing. So, again, if God is saving someone as you say and they cannot be lost, then there is no reason for Jesus to command them toe remain faithful

BroRog
Apr 11th 2011, 04:45 PM
I think your missing my point. The sounds coming out of Jesus' mouth would go to anyone who heard them. However, they are intended for the one who believes. I understood you. But your view doesn't fit the text. That's all I'm saying.


Yes, a whole group of people. But again, His words are intended for the believer. The one who doesn't believe cannot remain faithful since he isn't "In Christ". So, the words are meant for the believer, whether there are unbelievers present or not is irrelevant. Jesus commands them to remain faithful, the unbelievers aren't faithful, therefore the words are to the believer. If as you say the believer is being saved by God and will definitely endure, there is "NO" reason for Jesus to make that statement.
Okay, let's suppose that he is only talking to believers. We know from the parable of the soils that some believers will fall away and some won't. I didn't say that every believer was being saved by God. I thought I was clear that he wasn't. I see nothing wrong with Jesus telling a group of believers that if they continue to believe they will have eternal life.


That's irrelevant. If I am taking my child to School tomorrow, why would I tell my child, make sure you go to school tomorrow? I wouldn't, why because I am taking the child. There is no need for me to tell my child to do something that I myself am doing. So, again, if God is saving someone as you say and they cannot be lost, then there is no reason for Jesus to command them toe remain faithful.What you call "irrelevant" is the main issue and the locus of our constant disagreement over this issue. Your analogy models a single act in which you, the father, drive your son to school, with you performing the action. But your analogy doesn't model faithfulness, which isn't something we judge according to a single act, but according to a habit of action over a long period of time. And your model assumes that when I say that God makes sure that the one whom he is saving will endure, that he is doing the enduring for the person somehow.

The critics of God's sovereignty accuse him of being a puppeteer, and you are assuming this also in your analogy. If God is the puppeteer, you argue, then why would he command someone to do what he is already making them do? God, as puppeteer, wouldn't command someone to be faithful if he was causing them to be faithful. What would be the point in that? You are attempting to disprove my position by following its implications logically to an absurd consequence. But it is not absurd.

A puppeteer is a story teller and as we know a story teller causes the characters of the story to act and speak in ways that serve the narrative. It is not absurd for the story teller to place words in the mouth of a sage, "be faithful" and to have other characters act faithfully. Why would the story teller tell a church to be faithful, knowing ahead of time which ones would be faithful? It serves the narrative purpose of the story; that's why. God, as puppeteer, is not only pulling the strings of the wise sage, but his pulling the strings of those who listen to the wise sage. And it makes perfect sense within the narrative structure of the story being told for the sage to give wise advice to those who will listen, even as the story teller is authoring every word and action that takes place in the story.

So your reductio ad absurdum fails. Even if we assume that God is a puppeteer (and I'm not saying this, but I am accused of saying this) it is not absurd for Jesus to tell a church to be faithful, even as he knows which will be faithful and which won't, because if God was actually a puppeteer, whatever took place in the world would have a narrative purpose to serve the story he is trying to tell.

As I say, I'm not claiming that God is a puppeteer, making us do things against our will etc. The Biblical claim is this. Those with a good and honest heart will persevere to the end. God has access to this heart through his Holy Spirit. He not only has access to the heart through his Spirit but he gives the spirit of Christ to those whom he is saving such that they will do the will of God, even when it becomes difficult just as Jesus did when he went to the cross. This gift is a down payment on our future salvation, in which God will cause those whom he is saving to never sin again. He puts his followers to the test, not in order that he might assess their faith but in order that they might come to understand the resiliency and temper of their own faith.

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2011, 05:31 PM
Tribulation brings wisdom and wisdom patience. Our Lord Jesus was tested in all ways buffeted by His own people and tempted by the devil to give in to His fleshly passions. We expect both kinds of testing but one we flee the other proves our testimony for Gods glory.

There will be many marginal Christians in the kingdom. Paul never said the fellow in 1 Cor 5 was lost despite the open sin in which he was living. Paul said to deliver his flesh to satan for destruction that his spirit might be saved. This man fell away but no sentence of condemnation was passed upon him.

Any possibility of falling away in the sense that we lose our salvation is more than can be borne. Having been enlightened as to the terrible nature of hell and the wonderful nature of heaven to allow that anything can separate us from the Lord is beyond the pale.

The Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are the Lords. We live by the faith of Jesus Christ not by our frail and pathetic faith. Faith that we receive through the hearing of Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If doing that which is contrary to the will of God causes condemnation, why are believers told to flee from sin if they cannot be lost?

1 Tim 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

2 Tim 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Firstfruits

notuptome
Apr 11th 2011, 09:41 PM
If doing that which is contrary to the will of God causes condemnation, why are believers told to flee from sin if they cannot be lost?

1 Tim 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

2 Tim 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Firstfruits
What do you believe is the will of God?

Flee iniquity. You cannot avoid all sin. Important to know the difference.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

LankyLee
Apr 12th 2011, 12:14 AM
Should I have faith in my faith?

Butch5
Apr 12th 2011, 01:51 AM
I understood you. But your view doesn't fit the text. That's all I'm saying.

Okay, let's suppose that he is only talking to believers. We know from the parable of the soils that some believers will fall away and some won't. I didn't say that every believer was being saved by God. I thought I was clear that he wasn't. I see nothing wrong with Jesus telling a group of believers that if they continue to believe they will have eternal life.

What you call "irrelevant" is the main issue and the locus of our constant disagreement over this issue. Your analogy models a single act in which you, the father, drive your son to school, with you performing the action. But your analogy doesn't model faithfulness, which isn't something we judge according to a single act, but according to a habit of action over a long period of time. And your model assumes that when I say that God makes sure that the one whom he is saving will endure, that he is doing the enduring for the person somehow.

The critics of God's sovereignty accuse him of being a puppeteer, and you are assuming this also in your analogy. If God is the puppeteer, you argue, then why would he command someone to do what he is already making them do? God, as puppeteer, wouldn't command someone to be faithful if he was causing them to be faithful. What would be the point in that? You are attempting to disprove my position by following its implications logically to an absurd consequence. But it is not absurd.

A puppeteer is a story teller and as we know a story teller causes the characters of the story to act and speak in ways that serve the narrative. It is not absurd for the story teller to place words in the mouth of a sage, "be faithful" and to have other characters act faithfully. Why would the story teller tell a church to be faithful, knowing ahead of time which ones would be faithful? It serves the narrative purpose of the story; that's why. God, as puppeteer, is not only pulling the strings of the wise sage, but his pulling the strings of those who listen to the wise sage. And it makes perfect sense within the narrative structure of the story being told for the sage to give wise advice to those who will listen, even as the story teller is authoring every word and action that takes place in the story.

So your reductio ad absurdum fails. Even if we assume that God is a puppeteer (and I'm not saying this, but I am accused of saying this) it is not absurd for Jesus to tell a church to be faithful, even as he knows which will be faithful and which won't, because if God was actually a puppeteer, whatever took place in the world would have a narrative purpose to serve the story he is trying to tell.

As I say, I'm not claiming that God is a puppeteer, making us do things against our will etc. The Biblical claim is this. Those with a good and honest heart will persevere to the end. God has access to this heart through his Holy Spirit. He not only has access to the heart through his Spirit but he gives the spirit of Christ to those whom he is saving such that they will do the will of God, even when it becomes difficult just as Jesus did when he went to the cross. This gift is a down payment on our future salvation, in which God will cause those whom he is saving to never sin again. He puts his followers to the test, not in order that he might assess their faith but in order that they might come to understand the resiliency and temper of their own faith.

Rog,

You still can't get around it. It'sright here in your post.


He not only has access to the heart through his Spirit but he gives the spirit of Christ to those whom he is saving such that they will do the will of God, even when it becomes difficult just as Jesus did when he went to the cross.

You deny that God is a puppeteer, yet you cannot word this sentence in a way that gets around this. What does "in such a way" mean? In such a way that they will do God's will? Doesn't that mean that the Spirit is causing them to do God's will? If not then they wouldn't need the Spirit to do God's will, correct?

BroRog
Apr 12th 2011, 05:58 AM
Rog,

You still can't get around it. It'sright here in your post.



You deny that God is a puppeteer, yet you cannot word this sentence in a way that gets around this. What does "in such a way" mean? In such a way that they will do God's will? Doesn't that mean that the Spirit is causing them to do God's will? If not then they wouldn't need the Spirit to do God's will, correct?I assume that you won't be sinning in the next age. So why not? What will be different?

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2011, 07:43 AM
What do you believe is the will of God?

Flee iniquity. You cannot avoid all sin. Important to know the difference.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Are you saying that we cannot avoid doing sin, if so why the need for this scripture?

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Is it not possible to keep His commandments?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2011, 07:45 AM
Should I have faith in my faith?

With your faith you need also to obey Christs commandments.

Firstfruits

notuptome
Apr 12th 2011, 03:58 PM
Are you saying that we cannot avoid doing sin, if so why the need for this scripture?

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Is it not possible to keep His commandments?

Firstfruits
Not as long as we abide in the body of flesh.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 12th 2011, 04:00 PM
Should I have faith in my faith?
Have faith in the faith of Jesus Christ. Gal 2:20 The faith of man will always doubt, Christ never doubted His Father in heaven.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 12th 2011, 04:02 PM
With your faith you need also to obey Christs commandments.

Firstfruits
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Adding works to salvation is always wrong. Salvation is by grace and is completely unmerited.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Apr 12th 2011, 06:15 PM
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Adding works to salvation is always wrong. Salvation is by grace and is completely unmerited.

For the cause of Christ
RogerWhat are you considering a "work"? Jesus said for us to love each other as he has loved us. Is that a work?

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2011, 07:36 PM
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Adding works to salvation is always wrong. Salvation is by grace and is completely unmerited.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


How then do you fulfil the law of Christ?

Firstfruits

LankyLee
Apr 13th 2011, 12:05 AM
Have faith in the faith of Jesus Christ. Gal 2:20 The faith of man will always doubt, Christ never doubted His Father in heaven.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Faith in Jesus......not faith in my faith. Is a way to say it then.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 13th 2011, 12:17 AM
Have faith in the faith of Jesus Christ. Gal 2:20 The faith of man will always doubt, Christ never doubted His Father in heaven.

For the cause of Christ
RogerYeah, really, so much for our faith being a special gift of God at some moment of salvation. Otherwise you could have faith in your faith because it would not be your faith, but his faith, and from Him.

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2011, 11:54 AM
Not as long as we abide in the body of flesh.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

How then can we say we are saved, as long as we run the risk of sinning and what has been promised if we do?

Firstfruits

notuptome
Apr 13th 2011, 12:10 PM
How then can we say we are saved, as long as we run the risk of sinning and what has been promised if we do?

Firstfruits
Because our salvation is dependent on Gods grace and not our works. We rely upon the finished work of Christ not on our ability.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 13th 2011, 12:13 PM
What are you considering a "work"? Jesus said for us to love each other as he has loved us. Is that a work?
That is a fruit of the Holy Spirit Who lives within us. Gal 5:22 So loving each other is not a work but an evidence of the Holy Spirit's presence in us. A confirmation that we posess what we profess.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2011, 12:32 PM
Because our salvation is dependent on Gods grace and not our works. We rely upon the finished work of Christ not on our ability.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So with regards to what Jesus commanded, how would you explain this scripture?

Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Firstfruits

LankyLee
Apr 13th 2011, 09:22 PM
How then can we say we are saved, as long as we run the risk of sinning and what has been promised if we do?

Firstfruits

Are you saying you are lost if you sin?
Knowing that you will sin where does that leave you in your doctrine?
.....lost?
No, but lets hope a true child of God has more faith in the Blood of Jesus than that.

notuptome
Apr 14th 2011, 12:28 AM
So with regards to what Jesus commanded, how would you explain this scripture?

Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Firstfruits
There is no prohibition against doing good works only do not endeavor to make salvation dependent upon good works or bring good works in as a means to keep salvation. Grace is wholly sufficient to save and to keep for all of eternity.

A son does not work to remain a son. A son works to honor his Father.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2011, 09:09 AM
Are you saying you are lost if you sin?
Knowing that you will sin where does that leave you in your doctrine?
.....lost?
No, but lets hope a true child of God has more faith in the Blood of Jesus than that.

With the understanding that we are not judged until Jesus returns, whether we have done good or bad, how Jesus finds us at his return will determine our fate.

Mt 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thess 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Firstfruits

LankyLee
Apr 14th 2011, 10:15 AM
With the understanding that we are not judged until Jesus returns, whether we have done good or bad, how Jesus finds us at his return will determine our fate.

Mt 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thess 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Firstfruits

OK then we just preach a different gospel.
....agree to disagree.
yours is a "works" doctrine for salvation.
mine is not.

What does the Blood of Jesus mean to you? (In your own words.)

notuptome
Apr 14th 2011, 10:51 AM
With the understanding that we are not judged until Jesus returns, whether we have done good or bad, how Jesus finds us at his return will determine our fate.

Mt 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thess 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Firstfruits
Again you make an incorrect assumption. Those judged at Christ's return are condemned. The believer is judged already and Christ has taken our place in the judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2011, 01:23 PM
Again you make an incorrect assumption. Those judged at Christ's return are condemned. The believer is judged already and Christ has taken our place in the judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

How so?

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2011, 01:24 PM
OK then we just preach a different gospel.
....agree to disagree.
yours is a "works" doctrine for salvation.
mine is not.

What does the Blood of Jesus mean to you? (In your own words.)

So do we not need to watch and keep our garments clean?

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 14th 2011, 03:18 PM
I am going to say false. This I will buy. We are saved by grace through faith.
To me, "In Christ alone" implies I have to do something like say believe. Would that not require some mental work on my part? Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
Do sheep choose their owners? If you are one of his sheep you will believe for Jesus also said this, "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

That should cause the question. Through faith?

Faith is what Jesus had and would receive. Literally we are saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus. It is the faith Jesus had in his blood, dying and receiving life again from the Father is how the saved are saved. Lets tie some scripture together. Luke 22:42,44 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of the faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Notice Hebrews 12:2 says author and finisher of the faith. Our is not in the Greek and the article the is. What is this the faith? Found twice in scripture, Obedience of Faith. Correct translation from Young's Literal Romans 1:5 Jesus Christ our Lord; through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name; Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith -- By the faith of Christ unto obedience unto death.

The shedding of his blood would not be enough without him being given life to give us as Paul says in 1 Cor. 15:16,17,18 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. That is why when you read How one is saved in Eph. 2:8 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. That same statement of our are saved reads in Titus 3:5 he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

It was the regeneration of Christ that made the washing is his blood effective.

notuptome
Apr 15th 2011, 02:12 AM
How so?

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Firstfruits
As long as you continue to pluck verses out of thin air you are bound to seek answers that will elude you. Salvation is by grace and not by works. Christ has done all the works necessary to save us from our sin. God is satisfied.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2011, 08:25 AM
As long as you continue to pluck verses out of thin air you are bound to seek answers that will elude you. Salvation is by grace and not by works. Christ has done all the works necessary to save us from our sin. God is satisfied.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

According to scripture I do not believe that believing is enough.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Firstfruits

notuptome
Apr 15th 2011, 10:33 AM
According to scripture I do not believe that believing is enough.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Firstfruits
John 11:35 Jesus wept.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2011, 12:14 PM
John 11:35 Jesus wept.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The scripture speaks of believers that are not doing the will of God, if they already believe what then are they expected to do to fulfil the will of God?

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 15th 2011, 06:03 PM
The scripture speaks of believers that are not doing the will of God, if they already believe what then are they expected to do to fulfil the will of God?

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Firstfruits

Ecc. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Has never happened and in our current state never will. That is why we need a Messiah. We can't even agree what the rules are that we should be governed by concerning God. Something or someone needs to be changed.

Matt. 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. John 3:6 1st Pt. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; Verse 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Now there be some that say I am a born again Christian. I have been born again because I have faith in Christ. Yet as a group world wide these are the ones that can not agree on the rules.

How many had anything to do with there? That which is born of the flesh is flesh; Let me answer NONE.

Why does anyone think they have to do something in order to be? That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

God by his election is making new Adams in the resurrected firstborn from the dead Christ that will have his laws within them and will birth them all at once into the kingdom of God.

See new thread titled. Who hath heard such a thing? and please comment.

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2011, 07:20 PM
Ecc. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Has never happened and in our current state never will. That is why we need a Messiah. We can't even agree what the rules are that we should be governed by concerning God. Something or someone needs to be changed.

Matt. 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. John 3:6 1st Pt. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; Verse 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Now there be some that say I am a born again Christian. I have been born again because I have faith in Christ. Yet as a group world wide these are the ones that can not agree on the rules.

How many had anything to do with there? That which is born of the flesh is flesh; Let me answer NONE.

Why does anyone think they have to do something in order to be? That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

God by his election is making new Adams in the resurrected firstborn from the dead Christ that will have his laws within them and will birth them all at once into the kingdom of God.

See new thread titled. Who hath heard such a thing? and please comment.

Do we not know what Jesus has commanded, that we love one another? Do we not understand what that means according to scripture?

Firstfruits

LankyLee
Apr 15th 2011, 11:18 PM
Do we not know what Jesus has commanded, that we love one another? Do we not understand what that means according to scripture?

Firstfruits

Question for you Firstfruits:
Do you consider yourself, "right now," saved?
Is you salvation a certainty if you were to die right now?
....then: Based on what? How do you know?
Explain for us your salvation then maybe we could understand where you are coming from.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 16th 2011, 12:46 AM
The scripture speaks of believers that are not doing the will of God, if they already believe what then are they expected to do to fulfil the will of God?

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

FirstfruitsHow did you end up in doctrinal shipwreck? You say that when Christ returns believers are judged by works as to whether or not they have eternal life. Wouldn't that be impossible since when Christ returns all in Christ are either resurrected or changed into the image of the heavenly?

notuptome
Apr 16th 2011, 11:25 AM
The scripture speaks of believers that are not doing the will of God, if they already believe what then are they expected to do to fulfil the will of God?

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Firstfruits
Jesus is speaking of false professors. Luke 6:46 Why call ye Me Lord Lord and do not the things which I say? Salvation by grace through faith but to add works is to not do what the Lord has said.

The will of God is that you should beleive in Jesus and be saved. That you should stop believing in yourself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2011, 11:58 AM
Question for you Firstfruits:
Do you consider yourself, "right now," saved?
Is you salvation a certainty if you were to die right now?
....then: Based on what? How do you know?
Explain for us your salvation then maybe we could understand where you are coming from.

With regards to the following my answer is no, I have not yet received that which is promised.

1 Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Apr 16th 2011, 12:01 PM
It is by grace "God's unmerited favor" alone (not grace and merited favor) that we are saved "through faith" alone (not faith and works) "in Christ" alone (not Christ plus something else).

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2011, 12:02 PM
Jesus is speaking of false professors. Luke 6:46 Why call ye Me Lord Lord and do not the things which I say? Salvation by grace through faith but to add works is to not do what the Lord has said.

The will of God is that you should beleive in Jesus and be saved. That you should stop believing in yourself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The will of God is not just to believe, but also to do as Jesus has commanded.

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2011, 12:03 PM
It is by grace "God's unmerited favor" alone (not grace and merited favor) that we are saved "through faith" alone (not faith and works) "in Christ" alone (not Christ plus something else).

So we just believe and have no need to change how we live?

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Apr 16th 2011, 12:17 PM
Salvation is not a prize that you run a race to win (1 Corinthians 9:24) but a free gift that we receive through faith (Ephesians 2:8). There is a difference between receiving rewards (1 Corinthians 3:11-15; 9:17-18) and the gift of eternal life.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2011, 12:34 PM
Salvation is not a prize that you run a race to win (1 Corinthians 9:24) but a free gift that we receive through faith (Ephesians 2:8). There is a difference between receiving rewards (1 Corinthians 3:11-15; 9:17-18) and the gift of eternal life.

What do we have salvation from?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2011, 12:43 PM
Salvation is not a prize that you run a race to win (1 Corinthians 9:24) but a free gift that we receive through faith (Ephesians 2:8). There is a difference between receiving rewards (1 Corinthians 3:11-15; 9:17-18) and the gift of eternal life.

1 Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 16th 2011, 01:21 PM
The will of God is not just to believe, but also to do as Jesus has commanded.

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Firstfruits
You say that when Christ returns believers are judged by works as to whether or not they have eternal life. Wouldn't that be impossible since when Christ returns all in Christ are either resurrected or changed into the image of the heavenly?

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2011, 01:31 PM
You say that when Christ returns believers are judged by works as to whether or not they have eternal life. Wouldn't that be impossible since when Christ returns all in Christ are either resurrected or changed into the image of the heavenly?

Knowing that Jesus has not yet returned, then can we say we have already been rewarded?

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

Firstfruits

divaD
Apr 16th 2011, 02:30 PM
Salvation is not a prize that you run a race to win (1 Corinthians 9:24) but a free gift that we receive through faith (Ephesians 2:8). There is a difference between receiving rewards (1 Corinthians 3:11-15; 9:17-18) and the gift of eternal life.



Even tho it's a free gift, couldn't what one does with the free gift be the point? For instance, if someone were to give to someone else something that they themselves cherished, as a free gift, something that had powers to transform lives when put into use, then what about the person receiving it? There's all kinds of things this person could do with this free gift that has powers only when utilized. Some things that come to mind..the person might hold this gift close to their heart all of the days of their life and utilize it's powers everyday. This person might cherish the gift for awhile, but tire of it after a period of time. this person might put this gift in a closet where it collects dust, and pretty much forget about it. This person might even lose this free gift. Besides the first option, how can the free gift be of any value if the latter options happen instead? If the idea is, this free gift only has powers to transform lives when literally utilized, then how does the power work if one tires of it after awhile? Or if they put it away in a closet to collect dust? Or if they lose it? Why can't the gift of salvation be similar? Just because it's a free gift, this doesn't mean that the free gift couldn't be used in an irresponsible manner, or lost even.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 16th 2011, 02:46 PM
Knowing that Jesus has not yet returned, then can we say we have already been rewarded?

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

FirstfruitsYou are not addressing the question. What does the above have to do with eternity? Only those that are His are changed to be like Him when he appears. That being the case, how can you say the reward or loss of reward that happens afterward, is eternal destiny?

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2011, 02:52 PM
You are not addressing the question. What does the above have to do with eternity? Only those that are His are changed to be like Him when he appears. That being the case, how can you say the reward or loss of reward that happens afterward, is eternal destiny?

We have been promised eternal life, so is that not what we receive when Jesus returns?

Our reward is reserved for us in heaven.

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 16th 2011, 03:05 PM
We have been promised eternal life, so is that not what we receive when Jesus returns?

Our reward is reserved for us in heaven.

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

FirstfruitsExactly, we experience eternal life now. We know him and the power of the resurrection. Dead to sin and alive unto God. So if you are seated with Christ in heaven right now, what would it take for you to lose that eternal life you have right now? You still have not addressed the issue here! If you have eternal life right now as Jesus said, because you put your faith in him and he is the one that overcame the world, and you overcome the world through the very same faith in that very same thing -Christ, so that you are in Christ and are sitting with him in heaven, so that when he returns for you and changes you to be with him for eternity because you are in the world as he is right now, how then can you not have hope? How can you therefore doubt, seeing we have such great and precious promises and partake of the divine nature?

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2011, 03:16 PM
Exactly, we experience eternal life now. We know him and the power of the resurrection. Dead to sin and alive unto God. So if you are seated with Christ in heaven right now, what would it take for you to lose that eternal life you have right now? You still have not addressed the issue here! If you have eternal life right now as Jesus said, because you put your faith in him and he is the one that overcame the world, and you overcome the world through the very same faith in that very same thing -Christ, so that you are in Christ and are sitting with him in heaven, so that when he returns for you and changes you to be with him for eternity because you are in the world as he is right now, how then can you not have hope? How can you therefore doubt, seeing we have such great and precious promises and partake of the divine nature?

It said reserved for us "in heaven", how can we say we have that which is reserved in heaven?

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

What is our inheritance?

To my knowledge we are all appointed to die.

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 16th 2011, 04:00 PM
It said reserved for us "in heaven", how can we say we have that which is reserved in heaven?

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

What is our inheritance?

To my knowledge we are all appointed to die.

FirstfruitsOur inheritance is death and corruption? You can't get any further from the gospel than that! It says it is not corruption. You need to read the passage again.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Reserved in heaven is, as Paul said, heavenly places. Made to sit in heavenly places (Eph 2:6). If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God (Col 3:1). Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth (Col 3:2). For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3). It is our position in Christ that we have through faith not through what we see. We are kept by the power of God through faith, not through what we see. It is a lively hope based on the fact that Jesus is resurrected, ascended, and seated, not a dead hope in what is seen as the world has. We believe having not see. For we hope for what we do not see, else it is not hope. We are saved by hope (Rom 8:24). Salvation is as sure today through faith as it will be on that day through faith. Just as sure as Jesus was resurrected, ascended, and sat down, I am saved and will be saved. That's why it is kept in heaven. That's what kept in heaven means. It is spiritual (heaven) and I believe it. I could only doubt my salvation if I doubted his blood, resurrection, and/or seating/power.
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
We can say we have that which is reserved in heaven because it is based on his precious blood, his resurrection, the word of God, and the power of God, all through faith and hope, and because we are there in heaven -made to sit together with him spiritually -in Christ. We know it is true according to his great and precious promises by believing them and being a partaker of the divine nature.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Why do you doubt? Why don't you have hope? Which do you not believe? His blood, resurrection, or seating/power?

My inheritance is Christ not death. It is appointed to man once to die, but I have already been crucified with Christ. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3).

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2011, 05:01 PM
Our inheritance is death and corruption? You can't get any further from the gospel than that! It says it is not corruption. You need to read the passage again.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Reserved in heaven is, as Paul said, heavenly places. Made to sit in heavenly places (Eph 2:6). If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God (Col 3:1). Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth (Col 3:2). For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3). It is our position in Christ that we have through faith not through what we see. We are kept by the power of God through faith, not through what we see. It is a lively hope based on the fact that Jesus is resurrected, ascended, and seated, not a dead hope in what is seen as the world has. We believe having not see. For we hope for what we do not see, else it is not hope. We are saved by hope (Rom 8:24). Salvation is as sure today through faith as it will be on that day through faith. Just as sure as Jesus was resurrected, ascended, and sat down, I am saved and will be saved. That's why it is kept in heaven. That's what kept in heaven means. It is spiritual (heaven) and I believe it. I could only doubt my salvation if I doubted his blood, resurrection, and/or seating/power.
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
We can say we have that which is reserved in heaven because it is based on his precious blood, his resurrection, the word of God, and the power of God, all through faith and hope, and because we are there in heaven -made to sit together with him spiritually -in Christ. We know it is true according to his great and precious promises by believing them and being a partaker of the divine nature.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Why do you doubt? Why don't you have hope? Which do you not believe? His blood, resurrection, or seating/power?

My inheritance is Christ not death. It is appointed to man once to die, but I have already been crucified with Christ. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3).

We are still corruption, we are not changed until Jesus returns.

1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We have not yet put on immortality, unless you know otherwise?

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 16th 2011, 05:42 PM
We are still corruption, we are not changed until Jesus returns.

1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We have not yet put on immortality, unless you know otherwise?

FirstfruitsCorruption does not inherit incorruption (1Co 15:50 -flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.).
Have you put on Christ (Gal 3:27) or the old man? Have you put on the new man (Col 3:10) or the old? Have you put on the armour of light (Rom 13:12) or darkness? The whole armour of God (Eph 6:11) or of the world?

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

It does not say


we might also bear the image of the heavenly
We might not all sleep
we might be changed
the dead might be raised incorruptible

It says


corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

You are still not addressing the question. Why can't you answer it? You say that when Christ returns believers are judged by works as to whether or not they have eternal life. You have no scripture, and haven't even attempted to validate your position at all. Wouldn't it be impossible since when Christ returns all in Christ are either resurrected or changed into the image of the heavenly? And how is what you say possible when Jesus said we have eternal life now? That he that believes was dead but now lives?

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2011, 05:48 PM
Corruption does not inherit incorruption (1Co 15:50 -flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.).
Have you put on Christ (Gal 3:27) or the old man? Have you put on the new man (Col 3:10) or the old? Have you put on the armour of light (Rom 13:12) or darkness? The whole armour of God (Eph 6:11) or of the world?

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

It does not say


we might also bear the image of the heavenly
We might not all sleep
we might be changed
the dead might be raised incorruptible

It says


corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

You are still not addressing the question. Why can't you answer it? You say that when Christ returns believers are judged by works as to whether or not they have eternal life. You have no scripture, and haven't even attempted to validate your position at all. Wouldn't it be impossible since when Christ returns all in Christ are either resurrected or changed into the image of the heavenly? And how is what you say possible when Jesus said we have eternal life now? That he that believes was dead but now lives?

You have just answered your own question, as we are waiting for Jesus to return before we are changed, when we are resurrected we will be given immortality, eternal life. Does that answer your question?

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Do you believe that this has already been fulfilled?

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 16th 2011, 07:49 PM
You have just answered your own question, as we are waiting for Jesus to return before we are changed, when we are resurrected we will be given immortality, eternal life. Does that answer your question?

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Do you believe that this has already been fulfilled?

FirstfruitsYes it does. That's why I posted it. It tells me eternal life is now, not later. If you do not have it now you will not have it later.

Corruption does not inherit incorruption (1Co 15:50 -flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.).
Do you have it now?

LankyLee
Apr 16th 2011, 10:32 PM
We are still corruption, we are not changed until Jesus returns.

1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We have not yet put on immortality, unless you know otherwise?

Firstfruits

If you have not experienced the Holy Spirit dwelling with you and changing you, you might want to get on your knees and say a prayer.
You can't really believe that we are not changed until Jesus returns, (unless you are talking about our new bodies.) But our inner man and spirit is for sure changed when we became children of God.
I understand about the "natural man" nature but we are not under it and being led by the devil any longer, we are born again and now are led by God.
That my friend is a change.

notuptome
Apr 16th 2011, 11:36 PM
If you have not experienced the Holy Spirit dwelling with you and changing you, you might want to get on your knees and say a prayer.
You can't really believe that we are not changed until Jesus returns, (unless you are talking about our new bodies.) But our inner man and spirit is for sure changed when we became children of God.
I understand about the "natural man" nature but we are not under it and being led by the devil any longer, we are born again and now are led by God.
That my friend is a change.
2 Cor 5:17 clearly states that we are changed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

percho
Apr 17th 2011, 12:20 AM
Exactly, we experience eternal life now. We know him and the power of the resurrection. Dead to sin and alive unto God. So if you are seated with Christ in heaven right now, what would it take for you to lose that eternal life you have right now? You still have not addressed the issue here! If you have eternal life right now as Jesus said, because you put your faith in him and he is the one that overcame the world, and you overcome the world through the very same faith in that very same thing -Christ, so that you are in Christ and are sitting with him in heaven, so that when he returns for you and changes you to be with him for eternity because you are in the world as he is right now, how then can you not have hope? How can you therefore doubt, seeing we have such great and precious promises and partake of the divine nature?

Does being in Christ make one an heir or an inheritor?

percho
Apr 17th 2011, 12:28 AM
If you have not experienced the Holy Spirit dwelling with you and changing you, you might want to get on your knees and say a prayer.
You can't really believe that we are not changed until Jesus returns, (unless you are talking about our new bodies.) But our inner man and spirit is for sure changed when we became children of God.
I understand about the "natural man" nature but we are not under it and being led by the devil any longer, we are born again and now are led by God.
That my friend is a change.

That is what the word of God teaches. You have received the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,

The purchased possession can not be the body for with many it would have already returned to dust, therefore it must be the soul. God gives it a body to please himself.

Firstfruits is correct. You are a joint heir with Christ yet presently he is the only one who has inherited what you are a joint heir of.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 17th 2011, 05:53 AM
Does being in Christ make one an heir or an inheritor?Scripture says both. It's not either or. What's the difference?

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 17th 2011, 07:05 AM
That is what the word of God teaches. You have received the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,

The purchased possession can not be the body for with many it would have already returned to dust, therefore it must be the soul. God gives it a body to please himself.

Firstfruits is correct. You are a joint heir with Christ yet presently he is the only one who has inherited what you are a joint heir of.Christ did not inherit soul life because it was never dead.

Mortality most certainly has to do with the body. It is very common to think immortality is synonymous with eternal life but it is incorrect.

Adam was mortal flesh but he had eternal life. As long as he did not sin he had access to the tree of life -live forever- because he was in God's favor and blessing. Same is true at Christ's return in the millennium for mortal flesh.

Christ was also mortal flesh. It was this that was raised incorruptible and made heavenly. So it is with us. Christ had eternal life, in mortal flesh, before the cross because he had no sin. If not for the cross, which was for us, God would have changed his corruptible flesh and made it heavenly. All in Adam die, but Christ was not in Adam. He was just the second man, and the last Adam because he succeeded where the first failed -no sin.

Interestingly enough, we are joint heirs because we are baptized into the body of Christ. Not soul. Not spirit. Body. See, the heir had to be a man. God gave dominion over all the works of His hands to natural earthy Adam. Who is man that thou art mindful of him.....
Christ is that man that had no sin. He gave himself a ransom for many and shed his blood that we might also be sons of God. Because of this there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

When you read the following, does it sound like eternal life is immortally? Does it sound like something that is only future?
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.


1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.


1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 07:37 AM
Yes it does. That's why I posted it. It tells me eternal life is now, not later. If you do not have it now you will not have it later.

Corruption does not inherit incorruption (1Co 15:50 -flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.).
Do you have it now?

Then you must believe that the last trumpet has already sounded, since that is when we are to be changed, is that so?

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Are we or are we not still mortal?

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 17th 2011, 07:40 AM
Then you must believe that the last trumpet has already sounded, since that is when we are to be changed, is that so?

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Are we or are we not still mortal?

FirstfruitsAgain, you make the common mistake of thinking immortality is synonymous with eternal life.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 07:43 AM
That is what the word of God teaches. You have received the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,

The purchased possession can not be the body for with many it would have already returned to dust, therefore it must be the soul. God gives it a body to please himself.

Firstfruits is correct. You are a joint heir with Christ yet presently he is the only one who has inherited what you are a joint heir of.

Thank you Percho,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

This truly is our hope.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 07:46 AM
Again, you make the common mistake of thinking immortality is synonymous with eternal life.

Both mean that we shall not die, do they not? The only difference is where we spend eternity.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 08:06 AM
We have life now, but not yet the life that is to come.

1 Tim 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

2 Tim 1:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus

Firstfruits

mailmandan
Apr 17th 2011, 12:18 PM
The will of God is not just to believe, but also to do as Jesus has commanded.

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Firstfruits

The will of God for us to receive eternal life is that we believe in Christ for salvation.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Loving one another and keeping His commandments after we are saved through faith is what we are saved FOR, not by.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved (past tense) through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Those who keep His commandments demonstrate that they dwell in Him and He in him - 1 John 3:24. Does this mean perfectly keep His commandments? We are not sinless and perfect. The answer is no because the Greek word for “keep” does not have the idea of “perfection” but of “guarding or watching.”

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who PRACTICES righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:7-9 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who PRACTICES sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God PRACTICES sin . . .

There is a difference between God's will for us to become saved and God's will for us after we are saved through faith. John is not saying that God's will for us to become saved is that we keep His commandments, but this is evidence that He abides in us by the Spirit which He has given us.

mailmandan
Apr 17th 2011, 12:31 PM
Do these passages say believe "and change how we live?" John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6;29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:4-6; 1 John 5:13 etc...). Is that hard for you to accept? The moment that we believe the gospel, we receive the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) we receive the love of God in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) and we become new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). We have been changed. We don't change ourselves and then the Lord accepts us. We accept Him through faith and then He changes us. Changing how we live after we are saved through faith is a result of salvation, not the cause.

LankyLee
Apr 17th 2011, 12:37 PM
That is what the word of God teaches. You have received the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,

The purchased possession can not be the body for with many it would have already returned to dust, therefore it must be the soul. God gives it a body to please himself.

Firstfruits is correct. You are a joint heir with Christ yet presently he is the only one who has inherited what you are a joint heir of.

When I say changed NOW, obviously I'm talking about our inner man, our nature, NOT our physical body.
If Firstfruits or anyone else has not experienced a change in his life (born again) pre Jesus' second coming they may have waited to long.

mailmandan
Apr 17th 2011, 12:39 PM
I believe the statement to be true, but then you are required to live accordingly, we need to continue in the faith.

Firstfruits

The ability and wherewithal to stand firm, to continue in the faith, etc. is not humanly derived. We are empowered by Christ who lives in us to do these things. The source is not ourselves. Salvation is evidenced by continuing in the faith and not being moved from the hope held out in the gospel, not the cause. The people who fail to continue in the faith and lose hope in the gospel demonstrate that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe) in the first place (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). Present salvation cannot be based upon acts that come after salvation. Events after salvation can only prove or demonstrate the reality of what was assumed. 2 Corinthians 1:21,22 reads: "Now it is God who makes both us and you "stand firm" in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

mailmandan
Apr 17th 2011, 12:46 PM
What do we have salvation from?

Firstfruits

The eternal consequences of sin.

mailmandan
Apr 17th 2011, 12:54 PM
1 Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Firstfruits

There are different crowns mentioned in scripture (1 Corinthians 9:25; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Peter 5:4; 2 Timothy 4:8; Revelation 2:10). All believers will receive salvation but not all believers will receive the same reward in heaven. Note the distinction between rewards and salvation. In 1 Corinthians 3:15, If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire (as one escaping through the flames). Notice, if anoyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss (of reward) but he himself will still be SAVED. How many crowns did he receive?

LankyLee
Apr 17th 2011, 12:59 PM
The ability and wherewithal to stand firm, to continue in the faith, etc. is not humanly derived. We are empowered by Christ who lives in us to do these things. The source is not ourselves. Salvation is evidenced by continuing in the faith and not being moved from the hope held out in the gospel, not the cause. The people who fail to continue in the faith and lose hope in the gospel demonstrate that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe) in the first place (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). Present salvation cannot be based upon acts that come after salvation. Events after salvation can only prove or demonstrate the reality of what was assumed. 2 Corinthians 1:21,22 reads: "Now it is God who makes both us and you "stand firm" in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

Some have set themselves up as the "real Apostle Paul" and feel the need to explain the true gospel to us.
Seems in their heaven there will only be a few true believers.
In their belief system these few will be the only ones who really know what God is saying in his word.
Sounds like some folks that were wearing suits and ties and who knocked on my door once.
.....I didn't let them in.

mailmandan
Apr 17th 2011, 01:04 PM
Knowing that Jesus has not yet returned, then can we say we have already been rewarded?

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

Firstfruits

We are rewarded according to our works not granted eternal life/salvation according to our works (1 Corinthians 3:11-15). Jesus SAVED us and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began (2 Timothy 1:9). We are saved FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10) not by good works.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 01:43 PM
The will of God for us to receive eternal life is that we believe in Christ for salvation.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Loving one another and keeping His commandments after we are saved through faith is what we are saved FOR, not by.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved (past tense) through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Those who keep His commandments demonstrate that they dwell in Him and He in him - 1 John 3:24. Does this mean perfectly keep His commandments? We are not sinless and perfect. The answer is no because the Greek word for “keep” does not have the idea of “perfection” but of “guarding or watching.”

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who PRACTICES righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:7-9 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who PRACTICES sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God PRACTICES sin . . .

There is a difference between God's will for us to become saved and God's will for us after we are saved through faith. John is not saying that God's will for us to become saved is that we keep His commandments, but this is evidence that He abides in us by the Spirit which He has given us.

According to the following scriptures we cannot have eternal life until we get to heaven.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

We cannot have eternal life unless we are physically dead.

1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 01:51 PM
With the understanding that before we believed we were all unbelievers, does this mean that we have already received the condemnation promised? Can those condemned to damnation be saved?

According to the following when do we receive everlasting life?

Dan 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mt 18:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mt 19:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Mt 25:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Firstfruits

LankyLee
Apr 17th 2011, 02:51 PM
With the understanding that before we believed we were all unbelievers, does this mean that we have already received the condemnation promised? Can those condemned to damnation be saved?

According to the following when do we receive everlasting life?

Dan 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mt 18:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mt 19:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Mt 25:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Firstfruits

are we to assume you are footless and with no hands?

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 17th 2011, 04:22 PM
Both mean that we shall not die, do they not? The only difference is where we spend eternity.Do both


eternal life
immortality

both separately mean we shall not die? Absolutely not. Which death are you talking about, the first or second? After Adam sinned God separated him from the tree of life so that he would not physically live forever. Did he have eternal life? No he did not, he had immortality by the tree, but he had sin. He did not have to have eternal life to have immortality. He was created a natural man and earthy and before he sinned he had eternal life. Not because of the tree of life. That just concerned his mortal body. He had eternal life because he was in favor with God because he had no sin. Natural earthy mortal corruptible flesh had eternal life. So did Jesus. Jesus said he that believes has eternal life (even though he is mortal) but he that does not believe is condemned already (even though he is mortal).

Consider these two possibilities. We know all are resurrected, both sinner and saint. Jesus said God is able to, not will, destroy both body and soul in hell. Maybe he will maybe he won't. The text does not say.


(body and soul destroyed) You will get an immortal body if you already have eternal life. You will not get an immortal body if you are condemned already. Sinners get their mortal body back but it is to stand before God in Judgment. Then they lose it in hell.
(body and soul not destroyed) Both sinner and saint get a immortal body. Some to life because they have eternal life, others to damnation because they are condemned already. The body is immortal and the sinner is punished in it.

Now, there are other variations that people believe in, but I'm not going here to discuss it. I'm just pointing out the body is an irrelevant factor when considering whether or not one has eternal life or condemnation. According to what is written, whether one believes or not, and has sin or not, is the determining factor as to whether or not one has eternal life or not.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 05:36 PM
are we to assume you are footless and with no hands?

Thankfuly I have the same chance as unbelievers when it comes to sin, as it is written we are taught to repent.

1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 05:43 PM
Do both


eternal life
immortality
both separately mean we shall not die? Absolutely not. Which death are you talking about, the first or second? After Adam sinned God separated him from the tree of life so that he would not physically live forever. Did he have eternal life? No he did not, he had immortality by the tree, but he had sin. He did not have to have eternal life to have immortality. He was created a natural man and earthy and before he sinned he had eternal life. Not because of the tree of life. That just concerned his mortal body. He had eternal life because he was in favor with God because he had no sin. Natural earthy mortal corruptible flesh had eternal life. So did Jesus. Jesus said he that believes has eternal life (even though he is mortal) but he that does not believe is condemned already (even though he is mortal).

Consider these two possibilities. We know all are resurrected, both sinner and saint. Jesus said God is able to, not will, destroy both body and soul in hell. Maybe he will maybe he won't. The text does not say.


(body and soul destroyed) You will get an immortal body if you already have eternal life. You will not get an immortal body if you are condemned already. Sinners get their mortal body back but it is to stand before God in Judgment. Then they lose it in hell.
(body and soul not destroyed) Both sinner and saint get a immortal body. Some to life because they have eternal life, others to damnation because they are condemned already. The body is immortal and the sinner is punished in it.
Now, there are other variations that people believe in, but I'm not going here to discuss it. I'm just pointing out the body is an irrelevant factor when considering whether or not one has eternal life or condemnation. According to what is written, whether one believes or not, and has sin or not, is the determining factor as to whether or not one has eternal life or not.

One important point here, Those that suffer the second death, will never die, they have eternal life just as do believers.

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thess 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Show me the difference, apart from the destination?

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 17th 2011, 06:14 PM
One important point here, Those that suffer the second death, will never die, they have eternal life just as do believers.

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thess 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Show me the difference, apart from the destination?

FirstfruitsThey will die. For eternity. Because they are condemned already. They have eternal death, as opposed to eternal life. Huge difference. Don't you see a difference between everlasting life and everlasting destruction? Destination is not the difference. Which destination one goes to is the result of the difference one experiences in this life.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 06:28 PM
They will die. For eternity. Because they are condemned already. They have eternal death, as opposed to eternal life. Huge difference. Don't you see a difference between everlasting life and everlasting destruction? Destination is not the difference. Which destination one goes to is the result of the difference one experiences in this life.

According to the following if they will have never ending contempt.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I understand it is like a death penalty but there shall be no escape.

Mk 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mk 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mk 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It surely will be a living death.

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 17th 2011, 06:33 PM
A continual death is not a living death. Just because they are 'alive' to experience it does not mean they are alive. Just because they are living doesn't mean they have life. Just as we can be physically dying and have life.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 06:39 PM
A continual death is not a living death. Just because they are 'alive' to experience it does not mean they are alive. Just because they are living doesn't mean they have life.

Please explain? Are they not raised from the dead to stand before the judgment seat to be cast into the lake of fire? Remember, the lake of fire is the second death.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 17th 2011, 06:43 PM
2 Cor 5:17 clearly states that we are changed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger the following is 2 Cor. 5:16-18 from Young's Literal Translation. I removed the words in brackets that are not in the original yet are suppose to make for clearing understanding.

So that we henceforth have known no one according to the flesh, and even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him no more; so that if any one in Christ -- a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things. And the all things of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,

Does that passage say we are the new creature? The phrase, yet now we know him no more, I take to mean that Christ is no more in the flesh. Is that correct? Now being Jesus Christ only at this present time has been resurrected from the dead incorruptible, is the following verse speaking of him keeping in mind the previous verses from 2 Cor.? 1 Cor. 15:46 Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. Being this whole chapter is about resurrection the word afterward here has to mean after the resurrection. Therefore the verse before this one 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit. Being the Word was made flesh this quickening spirit has to be post resurrection. I took out the [was made] here also.

Now compare 2 Cor.5:16-18 and 1 Cor. 15:45,46 with Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Can this be understood as, Jesus Christ who is the beginning (a new creature) the firstborn from the dead,(do far only resurrected incorruptible) presently the all things of God?

DeafPosttrib
Apr 17th 2011, 06:50 PM
Firstfruits is right. He says, that our eternal life shall be follow after our physical death. My understanding as what Firstfruits believe, he speaks of our future final eternal salvation will be follow after we die.

I believe OSAS is a dangerous doctrine. It teaches us, that we already automatically have eternal life at the moment right after we believed in Jesus Christ. No matter how much we shall commit sins throughout our life after we believed in Jesus. We are still always saved . Also, it teaches that, many Christians who are not serve the Lord, continue in sinning. Shall suffer loss the rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, but still SAVED. Many citied on 1 Cor. 3:15 as the proof of OSAS. Understanding the context of 1 Cor. 3:1-15 talk about the leaders, pastors of their foundations, what their result would be at the judgment seat of Christ. This has do nothing with individuals. It apply to the leaders only.

There are much of warnings throughout New Testament about our salvation is conditional.

For example in Hebrews 3:6- "But Christ as a son over his own house, whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST the confidence and the rejocing of the HOPE FIRM UNTO THE END."

This verse says, it promises that we are belong to God's family, UNLESS IF we endure in our faith throughout our life till we die(physical) or Lord comes either, then we shall truly belong to God's children. That means, IF we do not endure in the midst of our Christian life, turn away from Him, and continue in sin till we die(physical), then, we will NOT belong to God's children, will be end up in everlasting fire.

Also, in Heb. 3:14 says: "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD the beginning of our confidence STEADFAST UNTO THE END. This tells us, it promises us, that we are belong in Christ's, UNLESS IF we HOLD our faith from the beginning of salvation(the day after we believed the gospel-Eph 1:13) throughout our Christian life till our death(physical), then we would be belong to Christ's forever and ever. That means, what IF suppose, we do not hold our faith, and not endure in the midst of our Christian life, turn away from Christ, continue in sins till we die(physical), then we will NOT belong to Christ's, will be end up in everlasting fire.

Myself do not understand why so many pastors seem having difficult time deal with Hebrews chapter 3, 4, not only of these passages, also, throughout whole book of Hebrews did mentioned with the warnings of our salvation is conditional??

I guess, pastors' duty, to soften their congregation as "itching ears", for the purpose of making money than the truth. Huh??

That why, I am rather to stick with God's Word than what pastors saying. I rather better to obey God's Word, and endure in him till I die, to have eternal life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

mattlad22
Apr 17th 2011, 06:56 PM
Firstfruits is right. He says, that our eternal life shall be follow after our physical death. My understanding as what Firstfruits believe, he speaks of our future final eternal salvation will be follow after we die.

I believe OSAS is a dangerous doctrine. It teaches us, that we already automatically have eternal life at the moment right after we believed in Jesus Christ. No matter how much we shall commit sins throughout our life after we believed in Jesus. We are still always saved . Also, it teaches that, many Christians who are not serve the Lord, continue in sinning. Shall suffer loss the rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, but still SAVED. Many citied on 1 Cor. 3:15 as the proof of OSAS. Understanding the context of 1 Cor. 3:1-15 talk about the leaders, pastors of their foundations, what their result would be at the judgment seat of Christ. This has do nothing with individuals. It apply to the leaders only.

There are much of warnings throughout New Testament about our salvation is conditional.

For example in Hebrews 3:6- "But Christ as a son over his own house, whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST the confidence and the rejocing of the HOPE FIRM UNTO THE END."

This verse says, it promises that we are belong to God's family, UNLESS IF we endure in our faith throughout our life till we die(physical) or Lord comes either, then we shall truly belong to God's children. That means, IF we do not endure in the midst of our Christian life, turn away from Him, and continue in sin till we die(physical), then, we will NOT belong to God's children, will be end up in everlasting fire.

Also, in Heb. 3:14 says: "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD the beginning of our confidence STEADFAST UNTO THE END. This tells us, it promises us, that we are belong in Christ's, UNLESS IF we HOLD our faith from the beginning of salvation(the day after we believed the gospel-Eph 1:13) throughout our Christian life till our death(physical), then we would be belong to Christ's forever and ever. That means, what IF suppose, we do not hold our faith, and not endure in the midst of our Christian life, turn away from Christ, continue in sins till we die(physical), then we will NOT belong to Christ's, will be end up in everlasting fire.

Myself do not understand why so many pastors seem having difficult time deal with Hebrews chapter 3, 4, not only of these passages, also, throughout whole book of Hebrews did mentioned with the warnings of our salvation is conditional??

I guess, pastors' duty, to soften their congregation as "itching ears", for the purpose of making money than the truth. Huh??

That why, I am rather to stick with God's Word than what pastors saying. I rather better to obey God's Word, and endure in him till I die, to have eternal life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Yes but some who veiw OSAS veiw it in the way that one who does "HOLD the beginning of our confidence STEADFAST UNTO THE END" is someone who will and someone who says Jesus is Christ and doesnt "HOLD the beginning of our confidence STEADFAST UNTO THE END" was never really saved.

Am i right?
Either way both are veiwing the same just in different ways.

percho
Apr 17th 2011, 07:07 PM
Christ did not inherit soul life because it was never dead.

Mortality most certainly has to do with the body. It is very common to think immortality is synonymous with eternal life but it is incorrect.

Adam was mortal flesh but he had eternal life. As long as he did not sin he had access to the tree of life -live forever- because he was in God's favor and blessing. Same is true at Christ's return in the millennium for mortal flesh.

Christ was also mortal flesh. It was this that was raised incorruptible and made heavenly. So it is with us. Christ had eternal life, in mortal flesh, before the cross because he had no sin. If not for the cross, which was for us, God would have changed his corruptible flesh and made it heavenly. All in Adam die, but Christ was not in Adam. He was just the second man, and the last Adam because he succeeded where the first failed -no sin.

Interestingly enough, we are joint heirs because we are baptized into the body of Christ. Not soul. Not spirit. Body. See, the heir had to be a man. God gave dominion over all the works of His hands to natural earthy Adam. Who is man that thou art mindful of him.....
Christ is that man that had no sin. He gave himself a ransom for many and shed his blood that we might also be sons of God. Because of this there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

When you read the following, does it sound like eternal life is immortally? Does it sound like something that is only future?
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.


1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.


1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


Just to address only that in bold. Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell. If Jesus the once living soul that died on the cross and that soul had not been resurrected where would it be today. 1 Cor. 15:16-18 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. And I guess being he was made flesh as we are it would have rotted away by now.

We have this statement by Jesus by the way in John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; When do you think God the Father gave the Son this life inherent in his self? Was it because he was resurrected from the dead that this statement is made? Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Is that eternal salvation the gift of God?

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 07:09 PM
Yes but some who veiw OSAS veiw it in the way that one who does "HOLD the beginning of our confidence STEADFAST UNTO THE END" is someone who will and someone who says Jesus is Christ and doesnt "HOLD the beginning of our confidence STEADFAST UNTO THE END" was never really saved.

Am i right?
Either way both are veiwing the same just in different ways.

When it comes to eternal life, there can only be one way, we die, we are raised from the dead and then given eternal life, until then it is a promised inheritance.

Firstfruits

DeafPosttrib
Apr 17th 2011, 07:12 PM
I want to say something of "fearful" of Rev. 21:8. This seem refer to lost people only. No, not is not always.

Notice many people seem not fear of God, because they do not care of God. Because, they are not understand the spiritual things, unless till they are born again after hear the gospel.

But, in 2 Peter 2:21 points out: "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." Speaking of, it is better for people who never hear the gospel, or the way of righteousness THAN people who already aware of the way of righteousness. That means, Christians shall receive the more serious judgment by God at the Great White Throne than lost people. Because, they already heard warnings from the Bible since after they believed in Jesus. They turned away from Him.

My point is, many Christians has no fear of God, while turn away from Him for a long time. Many think that they are already saved after they "accepted" Jesus Christ, will suffer loss the reward, still saved. But their thoughts are in serious error.

Matt 10:28 commands us, that we ought to fear God daily in our lifetime. Because we all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ to judge our life. If we continue fear God daily till we die. Then, we shall not being fearful to stand face the judgment seat of Christ. Because of our confidence in our faith, always be ready to stand before Him.

Sad for many Christians, who are not really fear of God in their lifetime, because they do not respect Him, they don't care of their Christian life, continue in sinning life. When they die(physical), for sure they will be FEAR and TREMBLING stand before the Lord. That why, lot of Christians will be cast away into the lake of fire. Therefore, Rev. 21:8 refer to lot of Christians who are reckless of their Christian life, will be FEAR and TREMBLING by face to face before the great white throne.

That why, in Phil 2:12 commands us, that we should work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, because we all shall stand face the judgment seat of Christ.

Sadly, most of Christians are not fear and trembling, and do not work out of their salvation. They are doing in their own pleasure life, think ok to take sin lightly, won't harm their salvation. But, when they die with sins and unconfess of their sins. They will be FEAR and TREMBLING to stand before God, much worst than people who never hear the gospel!!!!

I am not kidding, I am serious.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amem!

mattlad22
Apr 17th 2011, 07:14 PM
When it comes to eternal life, there can only be one way, we die, we are raised from the dead and then given eternal life.

Firstfruits

I agree.
I must ask you how that involves what you qouted from me 8)

im saying nosas = you believe in christ but you can fall to sin and not go to the Lord.
osas as ive seen veiwed from some = you cannot believe in Christ and ever fall, if you fell and didnt go back to Christ, you were never saved.

Conclusion:
Nosas= Beleive in Christ, you can fall but if you are saved you will seek Him.
Osas= Believe in Christ, if you believe you will never fall to the point of not going back to Him.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 17th 2011, 07:15 PM
mattlad22,

That the common argument of OSAS people always often saying: "They are not saved in the FIRST PLACE." I had heard their common arugment.

No, that is not true.


Hebrews chapter 3 is very clearly written to Christians, not lost people. You should be aware of.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

mattlad22
Apr 17th 2011, 07:21 PM
mattlad22,

That the common argument of OSAS people always often saying: "They are not saved in the FIRST PLACE." I had heard their common arugment.

No, that is not true.


Hebrews chapter 3 is very clearly written to Christians, not lost people. You should be aware of.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Im uncertian of what your trying to say to me.

Again both veiws are do argue the same point in different veiws.

Nosas: you can fall after being saved but if you dont go seek Him you are not saved.
Osas: You cant fall to the point of not seeking him, because if you did and didnt seek Him, you were never saved.

Both come to the same conclusion. Believe in Him, seek Him, if you dont or you stop, you are not saved.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 07:24 PM
I agree.
I must ask you how that involves what you qouted from me 8)

im saying nosas = you believe in christ but you can fall to sin and not go to the Lord.
osas as ive seen veiwed from some = you cannot believe in Christ and ever fall, if you fell and didnt go back to Christ, you were never saved.

Conclusion:
Nosas= Beleive in Christ, you can fall but if you are saved you will seek Him.
Osas= Believe in Christ, if you believe you will never fall to the point of not going back to Him.

Jesus gives us a view of two people/ judgments, we either believe and do his will or we do not believe or do his will. He does not give any middle ground. If we go back to doing what we know we ought not to do, it will cause us to fall short of what God has promised.

There are only two choices.

Firstfruits

mattlad22
Apr 17th 2011, 07:28 PM
Jesus gives us a view of two people/ judgments, we either believe and do his will or we do not believe or do his will. He does not give any middle ground. If we go back to doing what we know we ought not to do, it will cause us to fall short of what God has promised.

There are only two choices.

Firstfruits

I agree, do you live perfectly without sinning by your own hands, tongue, thoughts ext? Have you done so since the day you believed in your heart that Jesus is Christ? Did that stop you from seeking Him? Have you turned your back to Him even if you have fallen or did you ask Him for guidance and deliverance and pray for many sorts of growth?

mattlad22
Apr 17th 2011, 07:30 PM
Im not saying theres middle ground.
You believe or you dont.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 07:41 PM
I agree, do you live perfectly without sinning by your own hands, tongue, thoughts ext? Have you done so since the day you believed in your heart that Jesus is Christ? Did that stop you from seeking Him? Have you turned your back to Him even if you have fallen or did you ask Him for guidance and deliverance and pray for many sorts of growth?

May I ask a question, does believing automatically mean you are saved or do we believe as Jesus said we have to live so that when Jesus returns we shall receive what has been promised?

Firstfruits

mattlad22
Apr 17th 2011, 07:49 PM
May I ask a question, does believing automatically mean you are saved or do we believe as Jesus said we have to live so that when Jesus returns we shall receive what has been promised?

Firstfruits

If you are believing you are saved, believing isnt saying Christ is Lord and going about your business, it living through Him.

Example, if i say Christ is Lord and go about the world doing the things of the world, saying its ok im saved, He saved me im doing nothing wrong, but am in fact doing the things He said dont do and not doing the things He said do, i am not saved because i never really believed Him in the first place, His words were mute.

If i go about giving Him me, and i fall to something He said, do not do, i must repent, i must seek Him in change within myself. I must have faith and believe that He is taking care of me and that i am taking care to follow.

I am not perfect, i fall and He picks me back up, when i fall i believe He will pick me back up and when the time comes He will raise me and my corruption will become incorruption through Him.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 17th 2011, 07:52 PM
mattlad22,

I understand your point. Both have the same conclusion. True, both are correct about them. Yes, many people are sinning, because they not hear the gospel, are on the way to everlasting punishment. While another group did believed on Jesus Christ. But, afterward, they fall away, and do not return back to Him, shall be end up in hell.

But, I don't agree with OSAS. Thier arguement is, they are fall away from the Lord, "are not saved in the FIRST PLACE". They do not believe that a truly believer can fall away. But, there are so much overwhelmed throughout in the Scriptures telling us that a truly believer can fall away. Luke 15:11-32 mentioned that a believer can fall away and become lost. Unless, a believer repent of sins, can be restored of salvation.

Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 did mentioned the warning of being apostasy and rebelllion. As what Israel did to God in the wilderness. Yes, a truly believer can fall away, and if not repent back again by the time he/she dies. shall not be saved.

Therefore, we should not be the one of them, what happened to them in the wilderness.

Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 support Matt 10:22 and 24:13, that we ought to endure our faith throughout our life till we die, or Lord comes, then we shall be saved.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

mattlad22
Apr 17th 2011, 07:55 PM
mattlad22,

I understand your point. Both have the same conclusion. True, both are correct about them. Yes, many people are sinning, because they not hear the gospel, are on the way to everlasting punishment. While another group did believed on Jesus Christ. But, afterward, they fall away, and do not return back to Him, shall be end up in hell.

But, I don't agree with OSAS. Thier arguement is, they are fall away from the Lord, "are not saved in the FIRST PLACE". They do not believe that a truly believer can fall away. But, there are so much overwhelmed throughout in the Scriptures telling us that a truly believer can fall away. Luke 15:11-32 mentioned that a believer can fall away and become lost. Unless, a believer repent of sins, can be restored of salvation.

Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 did mentioned the warning of being apostasy and rebelllion. As what Israel did to God in the wilderness. Yes, a truly believer can fall away, and if not repent back again by the time he/she dies. shall not be saved.

Therefore, we should not be the one of them, what happened to them in the wilderness.

Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 support Matt 10:22 and 24:13, that we ought to endure our faith throughout our life till we die, or Lord comes, then we shall be saved.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Yes, and what happens to a "truly believer" once they fall? If they are a "truly believer"?

DeafPosttrib
Apr 17th 2011, 08:13 PM
mattlad22,

In Matt 13:20-21- "But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon(quickly/immediately) with joy receiveth it Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." Christ tells us, when a person, who is TRULY did believed the gospel, and received it. In fact that, many did believed and asked Jesus to saved at the first place. But, in the short time afterward, when the trials hit person, person can fall away, and no longer remain carry the fruit, because of person's root of faith is not yet developing. The point is, person's responsible to built up faith with carefully and being guard, by study God's word, also, in prayer too. That why, many people failed to built their faith, and guard their faith, are falling away. Luke 8:13 tells the same thing.

The facts that we have seen many truly believers did fall away from their faith, did not return back to their Lord again.

Notice Rev. 2:4,5 telling us very,very clear, that many Christians do depart from their first love and first work, afterward, they did not return back to their first love and first work. Christ warns us, if we do not return to our first love and first work, while we are continue in sins till we die, or Lord comes, He would REMOVED us out of his place. That means, we might be end up in the lake of fire!!! That why, we ought listen Christ's warning("He that hath en ear, LET HIM HEAR"- Rev. 2:7).

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

mattlad22
Apr 17th 2011, 08:16 PM
mattlad22,

In Matt 13:20-21- "But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon(quickly/immediately) with joy receiveth it Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." Christ tells us, when a person, who is TRULY did believed the gospel, and received it. In fact that, many did believed and asked Jesus to saved at the first place. But, in the short time afterward, when the trials hit person, person can fall away, and no longer remain carry the fruit, because of person's root of faith is not yet developing. The point is, person's responsible to built up faith with carefully and being guard, by study God's word, also, in prayer too. That why, many people failed to built their faith, and guard their faith, are falling away. Luke 8:13 tells the same thing.

The facts that we have seen many truly believers did fall away from their faith, did not return back to their Lord again.

Notice Rev. 2:4,5 telling us very,very clear, that many Christians do depart from their first love and first work, afterward, they did not return back to their first love and first work. Christ warns us, if we do not return to our first love and first work, while we are continue in sins till we die, or Lord comes, He would REMOVED us out of his place. That means, we might be end up in the lake of fire!!! That why, we ought listen Christ's warning("He that hath en ear, LET HIM HEAR"- Rev. 2:7).

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

I agree.
I asked you if a "truly believer" falls, what would a "truly believer" do?
He would not fall and stay down, he is true to his faith in Christ.
If he did, would he be a "truly believer"?

mattlad22
Apr 17th 2011, 08:21 PM
Nosas is saying if you fall you can get back up through Christ.
Osas is saying you cant fall and not get back up if your with Christ.

Same accord/results, different views.

If anyone says, "you cant fall at all, if you fall and go back to Christ it is unacceptable", then we are all doomed in thier veiw, regardless if your nosas, osas or anything else.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 17th 2011, 08:28 PM
mattlad22,

*Sigh* Good Grief(Charlie Brown speaks).

As your point, trying to ask me a question- "if he did, would he be a "truly brother"? Do you mean that, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a TRULY believer to fall away, after he trusted Christ? Am I right?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

mattlad22
Apr 17th 2011, 08:35 PM
mattlad22,

*Sigh* Good Grief(Charlie Brown speaks).

As your point, trying to ask me a question- "if he did, would he be a "truly brother"? Do you mean that, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a TRULY believer to fall away, after he trusted Christ? Am I right?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Haha.
I am in fact saying a person of God who He will raise on the last day, cannot fall away from Christ and not go back to Him.
That person may sin after accepting Christ, but will go to Christ in all things even at a falling, that person will never abandon Christ.

By your definition of "fall away" you are saying abandon God and not go back to Him, am i correct?
If i am, yes, i am saying it is impossible for "truly believer" to fall away after He trusted Christ.
I am saying its very possible for "truly believer" to fall, but He will go to Him if he is a "truly believer"

DeafPosttrib
Apr 17th 2011, 08:40 PM
Mattlad22,

Ok. I ask you question, why there are so many warnings in the New Testament? Are the warnings apply to the lost people only?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

mattlad22
Apr 17th 2011, 08:42 PM
Mattlad22,

Ok. I ask you question, why there are so many warnings in the New Testament? Are the warnings apply to the lost people only?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

No, the warnings are for us as much as anyone else.
So are the warnings to "repent"