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Firstfruits
Apr 7th 2011, 12:25 PM
According to the following scripture, are we already saved or are we waiting to be saved?

Rom 8:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 8:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 7th 2011, 07:53 PM
If we are already saved why do we only have a hope of salvation as a helmet?

1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 7th 2011, 09:03 PM
If we are already saved why do we only have a hope of salvation as a helmet?

1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Firstfruits

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

I have many post concerning this. Just about all point this direction. I believe we shall be saved when we are resurrected/changed ie born again. By his life above is speaking of his resurrected life. That is the reason Paul states in 1 Cor. 15:17,18 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. Also 2 Cor. 4:11 For we which live (presently) are alway delivered unto death (WE are going to die) for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus (His resurrected life) might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. (At his return) Verse 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you. This same thought continues into the next chapter where Paul says God will give it a body as it hath pleased him, our house from heaven (see also 1 Cor. 15:38) And just as in Eph.1:13,14 the Holy Spirit assures us of the resurrection unto life. See 2 Cor. 5:4,5 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

It is not about dying and going to heaven. There is no life outside the resurrection unto life.

Illumined
Apr 8th 2011, 12:32 AM
According to the following scripture, are we already saved or are we waiting to be saved?

Rom 8:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 8:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Firstfruits

The gift of eternal life is what we get right here, right now. Ponder on these verses for a couple hours and then read John chapter 3.

John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

Galatians 4:6
….God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts,…

John 17:26
….and that I myself may be in them.”

Galatians 2:20
………Christ lives in me.

Philippians 1:19
…the spirit of Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 15:45
……. the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit.

1 John 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1 John 4:13 (http://bibleforums.org/%5Ccgi-bin%5Cbible?passage=1JOHN+4:13&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

1 John 5:11
…….. God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Acts 19:2
and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

Servant89
Apr 8th 2011, 12:46 AM
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

But when do we actually become immortal?

Mk 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Not yet....

I read the entire Bible looking for that button that I can press to be saved... I looked for verses that say that I was saved today because of what I did yesterday. Did not find it. All of them talk about being saved today, if I keep at it tomorrow. However, the only instance where salvation is based on something done in the past is this one, and yet, the second part of the verse brings us back to the present:

Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

That one is talking about as many as got baptised in the HS, i.e., received him.

Shalom

percho
Apr 8th 2011, 02:03 AM
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

But when do we actually become immortal?

Mk 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Not yet....

I read the entire Bible looking for that button that I can press to be saved... I looked for verses that say that I was saved today because of what I did yesterday. Did not find it. All of them talk about being saved today, if I keep at it tomorrow. However, the only instance where salvation is based on something done in the past is this one, and yet, the second part of the verse brings us back to the present:

Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

That one is talking about as many as got baptised in the HS, i.e., received him.

Shalom

This is speaking of those who have been baptized unto Christ.

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Presently our eternal life is in Christ. It is he that is, the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; Presently he is not only the firstborn he is the only born from the dead.

More on those baptized unto Christ.

For we (the baptized) which live (presently) are alway delivered unto death (going to die) for Jesus' sake, that the life (resurrected life) also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.(will put on immortality) We having the same spirit of faith,(the earnest of the Spirit) according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken;(Who it it is saying this? The Christ PS 116:10) we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, (At his return, the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which are alive) and shall present [us] with you.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 8th 2011, 03:43 AM
If we are already saved why do we only have a hope of salvation as a helmet?

1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

FirstfruitsYour false premise is that our hope is a hope like the worlds hope. Biblical hope is based on evidence, has reason to exist, and gives assurance of salvation, which is why it is hope. Not as the world has, but as those that know God have.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
.
.
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 11:44 AM
The gift of eternal life is what we get right here, right now. Ponder on these verses for a couple hours and then read John chapter 3.

John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

Galatians 4:6
….God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts,…

John 17:26
….and that I myself may be in them.”

Galatians 2:20
………Christ lives in me.

Philippians 1:19
…the spirit of Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 15:45
……. the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit.

1 John 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1 John 4:13 (http://bibleforums.org/%5Ccgi-bin%5Cbible?passage=1JOHN+4:13&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

1 John 5:11
…….. God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Acts 19:2
and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

If we have eternal life now, why is it a promise that we have to wait for?

2 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

1 Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

How can it be reserved in heaven if we already have it?

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 11:48 AM
Your false premise is that our hope is a hope like the worlds hope. Biblical hope is based on evidence, has reason to exist, and gives assurance of salvation, which is why it is hope. Not as the world has, but as those that know God have.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
.
.
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

According to the following our hope is laid up in heaven, so how is it a false premise?

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 11:50 AM
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

I have many post concerning this. Just about all point this direction. I believe we shall be saved when we are resurrected/changed ie born again. By his life above is speaking of his resurrected life. That is the reason Paul states in 1 Cor. 15:17,18 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. Also 2 Cor. 4:11 For we which live (presently) are alway delivered unto death (WE are going to die) for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus (His resurrected life) might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. (At his return) Verse 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you. This same thought continues into the next chapter where Paul says God will give it a body as it hath pleased him, our house from heaven (see also 1 Cor. 15:38) And just as in Eph.1:13,14 the Holy Spirit assures us of the resurrection unto life. See 2 Cor. 5:4,5 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

It is not about dying and going to heaven. There is no life outside the resurrection unto life.

What is it that we shall be saved from?

Firstfruits

Longsufferer
Apr 8th 2011, 11:54 AM
To "watch" which Christ refers to in (Mark 13:33-37) is to vigilantly care for the welfare of our salvation; it is a continual maintaining or faithfully making the sincere effort to do the things which He says. As in a marriage, we may believe in marriage, but are we faithful to the marriage?

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 11:59 AM
To "watch" which Christ refers to in (Mark 13:33-37) is to vigilantly care for the welfare of our salvation; it is a continual maintaining or faithfully making the sincere effort to do the things which He says. As in a marriage, we may believe in marriage, but are we faithful to the marriage?

Salvation from what?

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 8th 2011, 06:06 PM
What is it that we shall be saved from?

Firstfruits

The wages of sin. Death, whatever that means, maybe the opposite of life.

The reward, the resurrection unto life. John 3:16

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 07:49 PM
The wages of sin. Death, whatever that means, maybe the opposite of life.

The reward, the resurrection unto life. John 3:16

But we all have to die, does believing prevent us from dying?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Firstfruits

Caleb
Apr 8th 2011, 08:32 PM
According to the following scripture, are we already saved or are we waiting to be saved?

Rom 8:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 8:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Firstfruits

Hi FF!
Can you have salvation and not have Christ Jesus?

Can you have Christ Jesus, and not have salvation?

Our spirit is saved (Christ in you)
Our soul is being saved (being transformed by the renewing of your mind)
Our body will be saved (at the resurrection we shall all be changed)

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 08:39 PM
Hi FF!
Can you have salvation and not have Christ Jesus?

Can you have Christ Jesus, and not have salvation?

Our spirit is saved (Christ in you)
Our soul is being saved (being transformed by the renewing of your mind)
Our body will be saved (at the resurrection we shall all be changed)

So these sriptures are not saying that we have a hope of salvation?

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

What what is our hope we are waiting for?

Firstfruits

notuptome
Apr 8th 2011, 08:41 PM
So these sriptures are not saying that we have a hope of salvation?

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

What what is our hope we are waiting for?

Firstfruits
Resurrection.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 08:44 PM
Resurrection.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So what about this scripture?

1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Firstfruits

RollTide21
Apr 8th 2011, 08:49 PM
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
FirstfruitsA bit of an aside, here...

Is there not a different context to consider here in this passage seeing as Paul's letter is to a Church and not an individual? This post carries a different meaning when we understand that he is referring to the entire message of a church as opposed to a specific believer.

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 08:54 PM
A bit of an aside, here...

Is there not a different context to consider here in this passage seeing as Paul's letter is to a Church and not an individual? This post carries a different meaning when we understand that he is referring to the entire message of a church as opposed to a specific believer.

Are we not all included when it comes to salvation, do we not all have the same hope?

1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Firstfruits

RollTide21
Apr 8th 2011, 08:56 PM
Are we not all included when it comes to salvation, do we not all have the same hope?

1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

FirstfruitsDoes the doctrinal statement of the church you attend factor into whether or not you have received Christ?

notuptome
Apr 8th 2011, 09:03 PM
So what about this scripture?

1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Firstfruits
The hope of salvation is the hope that Christ rose from the dead and so shall we.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 09:04 PM
Does the doctrinal statement of the church you attend factor into whether or not you have received Christ?

How does receiving Christ change our hope?

1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

We believe in Jesus and accept him as our saviour, yet we are waiting for his return.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 09:07 PM
The hope of salvation is the hope that Christ rose from the dead and so shall we.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

How would that apply to this scripture?

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

What is it that is laid up for us in Heaven?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 09:22 PM
If we are already saved why is Jesus coming to save those that are waiting for him?

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Firstfruits

RollTide21
Apr 8th 2011, 09:24 PM
How does receiving Christ change our hope?

1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

We believe in Jesus and accept him as our saviour, yet we are waiting for his return.

FirstfruitsI don't understand how that addresses my question, but...no big deal. I don't want this thread to get off on that specific topic.

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2011, 09:30 PM
Does the doctrinal statement of the church you attend factor into whether or not you have received Christ?

I think you missed my reply, we believe Jesus as our saviour, but we are still awaiting his return when we shall receive our salvation.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Is this not your hope?

Firstfruits

RollTide21
Apr 8th 2011, 09:42 PM
I think you missed my reply, we believe Jesus as our saviour, but we are still awaiting his return when we shall receive our salvation.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Is this not your hope?

FirstfruitsSo...you're not addressing my question about the difference between the doctrine of a church and a specific individual? I'm confused.

Yes...that is my hope.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 9th 2011, 01:24 AM
According to the following our hope is laid up in heaven, so how is it a false premise?

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

FirstfruitsBecause the hope in heaven is Christ who ascended up into the holiest once, presented His blood, and sprinkled the heavenly things and sat down. The gospel and His sacrifice gives up full assurance that He will finish what He started. There is no doubt to those that are born again. We know because we have seen, heard, and experienced His salvation and eternal life.

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2011, 12:09 PM
So...you're not addressing my question about the difference between the doctrine of a church and a specific individual? I'm confused.

Yes...that is my hope.

Why would church doctrine not be the same as a specific individual, is there not only one gospel/doctrine we have been given?

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Wether church or individual the word remains the same.

If this is our hope then can we say we are already saved?

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2011, 12:13 PM
Because the hope in heaven is Christ who ascended up into the holiest once, presented His blood, and sprinkled the heavenly things and sat down. The gospel and His sacrifice gives up full assurance that He will finish what He started. There is no doubt to those that are born again. We know because we have seen, heard, and experienced His salvation and eternal life.

What is the salvation we have experienced that was promised?

What is the hope of his calling?

Eph 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2011, 12:47 PM
If we already have salvation, how do we explain that it is nearer than when we believed? Were we not not save when we believed?

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 9th 2011, 02:30 PM
What is the salvation we have experienced that was promised?

What is the hope of his calling?

Eph 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

FirstfruitsThe new creature and all that Christ has given the believer. Look at the surrounding verses. To have a revelation in the knowledge of Him. The greatness of power to us-ward who believe which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, hath quickened us together with Christ and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2011, 02:31 PM
The gift of eternal life is what we get right here, right now. Ponder on these verses for a couple hours and then read John chapter 3.

John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

Galatians 4:6
….God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts,…

John 17:26
….and that I myself may be in them.”

Galatians 2:20
………Christ lives in me.

Philippians 1:19
…the spirit of Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 15:45
……. the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit.

1 John 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1 John 4:13 (http://bibleforums.org/%5Ccgi-bin%5Cbible?passage=1JOHN+4:13&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

1 John 5:11
…….. God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Acts 19:2
and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

If believers have eternal life right now, then would that not have to mean that unbelievers have already perished, according to what God has promised?

Were we not all unbelievers

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 9th 2011, 02:37 PM
If we already have salvation, how doe we explain that it is nearer than when we believed? Were we not not save when we believed?

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

FirstfruitsThe new creature and all that Christ has given the believer. Look at the surrounding verses.

high time to awake out of sleep
let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

It's not that they are not saved. Paul, having received the revelation, is having to teaching the church the mystery of Christ. We must remember the historical context of Paul's writings. Granted, it is still so true today. People get saved by the part of the gospel wherein Jesus died for your sin, but they need to be taught when Jesus died for their sins they died to their sins, have been made alive, made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light, to be partakers of the divine nature.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 9th 2011, 02:49 PM
He said the same here.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This is not some 10 or 20 year manipulation of your mind by studying scripture. After preaching the mystery of Christ in previous chapters he calls for the believer to believe it. Since you were crucified with Christ, walk as those alive from the dead and you will be a living sacrifice. Set you mind not on things of this earth (be not conformed to this world) but in heavenly things where Christ sits, where in fact you are. Made to sit with Christ in heaven. Believe the gospel (transformed by the renewing of your mind). The whole gospel. Not just the part you first heard that got you saved.

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2011, 02:53 PM
The new creature and all that Christ has given the believer. Look at the surrounding verses.

high time to awake out of sleep
let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

It's not that they are not saved. Paul, having received the revelation, is having to teaching the church the mystery of Christ. We must remember the historical context of Paul's writings. Granted, it is still so true today. People get saved by the part of the gospel wherein Jesus died for your sin, but they need to be taught when Jesus died for their sins they died to their sins, have been made alive, made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light, to be partakers of the divine nature.

With what God has promised I would say that they were believers, but according to the promise we have not yet had our inheritance, it is reserved for us in heaven.

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2011, 02:56 PM
He said the same here.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This is not some 10 or 20 year manipulation of your mind by studying scripture. After preaching the mystery of Christ in previous chapters he calls for the believer to believe it. Since you were crucified with Christ, walk as those alive from the dead and you will be a living sacrifice. Set you mind not on things of this earth (be not conformed to this world) but in heavenly things where Christ sits, where in fact you are. Made to sit with Christ in heaven. Believe the gospel (transformed by the renewing of your mind). The whole gospel. Not just the part you first heard that got you saved.

According to what God has promised what applies to believers the reverse would also apply to unbelievers.

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 9th 2011, 02:59 PM
With what God has promised I would say that they were believers, but according to the promise we have not yet had our inheritance, it is reserved for us in heaven.

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Firstfruits

Good. The point is that we can know it now. We don't have to wait to know or experience it.

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2011, 03:04 PM
Good. The point is that we can know it now. We don't have to wait to know or experience it.

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

It is true that we can know where we stand with God according to what he has promised, but because of what God has promised we can also be sure that we have not yet got to that point.

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 9th 2011, 03:16 PM
and what's the point there? We either know or we don't. We do not know BUT....
there is no BUT in the salvation and eternal life scripture makes clear gives us assurance.

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2011, 03:29 PM
and what's the point there? We either know or we don't. We do not know BUT....
there is no BUT in the salvation and eternal life scripture makes clear gives us assurance.

We are assured of salvation, if we do according to what accompanies the promise of God. By this we know if we stand of not.

What God has promised must be applied to what we have or do not have now.

This is how men know that we are of God.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 Jn 3:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Jn 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

What then has God promised regarding salvation, and from what?

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 9th 2011, 04:41 PM
We are assured of salvation, if we do according to what accompanies the promise of God. By this we know if we stand of not.

What God has promised must be applied to what we have or do not have now.

This is how men know that we are of God.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 Jn 3:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Jn 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Yes, all we have to do is believe the gospel. Not one time but continually to the end.


What then has God promised regarding salvation, and from what?

Firstfruitssalvation - deliverance
from sin and death

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2011, 04:47 PM
Yes, all we have to do is believe the gospel. Not one time but continually to the end.

salvation - deliverance
from sin and death

Agreed, but what exactly is the promise of God by which we will either be saved or unsaved?

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 9th 2011, 05:46 PM
Agreed, but what exactly is the promise of God by which we will either be saved or unsaved?

Firstfruitssalvation, both now and future, is by grace through faith

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2011, 07:17 PM
salvation, both now and future, is by grace through faith

Those are the things that follow half of the promise. There are two sides to it.

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 9th 2011, 08:31 PM
Salvation? For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Is this not salvation?
I believe this is how the word of God says we presently stand. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled(Our current condition) to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved(Yet future.) by his life. See below for his life.
Romans 8:28 to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. The called are presently those, 1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
The Word was made flesh and died. That is received the wages that is paid for sin. He no longer had life. He was dead. Can someone who is dead give life to anyone. Let Paul answer this for us. 1 Cor. 15:13,14,16,17,18 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. There would be no life to give us. However.
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (When do you think he gave him this life) 1 Cor. 15:45 last part,The last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. V46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. Afterward what? After the resurrection the topic if this chapter. John 5:21 last part, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. (When?) 1 Cor. 15:52 In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: (We will then be given eternal life)

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2011, 09:04 PM
Salvation? For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Is this not salvation?
I believe this is how the word of God says we presently stand. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled(Our current condition) to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved(Yet future.) by his life. See below for his life.
Romans 8:28 to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. The called are presently those, 1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
The Word was made flesh and died. That is received the wages that is paid for sin. He no longer had life. He was dead. Can someone who is dead give life to anyone. Let Paul answer this for us. 1 Cor. 15:13,14,16,17,18 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. There would be no life to give us. However.
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (When do you think he gave him this life) 1 Cor. 15:45 last part,The last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. V46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. Afterward what? After the resurrection the topic if this chapter. John 5:21 last part, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. (When?) 1 Cor. 15:52 In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: (We will then be given eternal life)

What is the death that is the wages of sin since it is appointed unto man once to die?

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 10th 2011, 12:56 AM
What is the death that is the wages of sin since it is appointed unto man once to die?

Firstfruits

It was appointed even before he sinned. God told him even before Eve was made from him in Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. The appointment was made.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 10th 2011, 04:09 AM
Those are the things that follow half of the promise. There are two sides to it.

FirstfruitsNot sure what you are getting at then. Everything is wrapped up in 'salvation'.

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2011, 07:21 AM
It was appointed even before he sinned. God told him even before Eve was made from him in Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. The appointment was made.

Would you agree that since we are all appointed to die, and do die, whether believer or unbeliever, that it cannot be this death we are being saved from?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2011, 07:24 AM
Not sure what you are getting at then. Everything is wrapped up in 'salvation'.

It is about what we will be saved from, because whether we are believers or not we all die. So according to Gods promise what are we to be saved from?

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 10th 2011, 03:13 PM
It is about what we will be saved from, because whether we are believers or not we all die. So according to Gods promise what are we to be saved from?

Firstfruits
When you asked,
"what exactly is the promise by which we will either be saved or unsaved"
I did not understand that to mean,
"according to Gods promise what are we to be saved from?"
Everyone knows what we are saved from. The question is, why don't people believe it is now and think it is only future?

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2011, 04:39 PM
When you asked,

"what exactly is the promise by which we will either be saved or unsaved"
I did not understand that to mean,

"according to Gods promise what are we to be saved from?"
Everyone knows what we are saved from. The question is, why don't people believe it is now and think it is only future?

Because the same rule would have to apply to those that do not believe. Are they already dead, and what about all of us who were unbelievers? Has Gods promise already been fulfilled for them?

Firstfruits

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 10th 2011, 05:21 PM
Because the same rule would have to apply to those that do not believe. Are they already dead, and what about all of us who were unbelievers? Has Gods promise already been fulfilled for them?

FirstfruitsAbsolutely not! The deliverance from sin and death that Jesus gives for this life is only for believers.

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2011, 05:33 PM
Absolutely not! The deliverance from sin and death that Jesus gives for this life is only for believers.

The promise for both will be realised at the same time, according to the conditions of the promise.

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 10th 2011, 09:03 PM
Maybe the promise is what we are saved for rather than from. I believe this promise was made to the one to be made flesh and it is only through him we share in it. Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. Here it is. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; We have the hope and it was promised to the above and he has received it.

Caleb
Apr 10th 2011, 10:44 PM
If we already have salvation, how do we explain that it is nearer than when we believed? Were we not not save when we believed?

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Firstfruits

Hi again FF

We are not only saved ‘from’ but we are also saved ‘to’

If a person is in the sea and drowning, and you go out in your boat to save him. Then when you have him out of the water and into the boat, is he saved from drowning?

Yes he is, but while he is still in the boat, he is still being saved.
When you reach the dry land then he will be fully saved.

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2011, 10:18 AM
Maybe the promise is what we are saved for rather than from. I believe this promise was made to the one to be made flesh and it is only through him we share in it. Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. Here it is. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; We have the hope and it was promised to the above and he has received it.

With regards to the choices given with the promise, I believe it will be saved from.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2011, 10:29 AM
Hi again FF

We are not only saved ‘from’ but we are also saved ‘to’

If a person is in the sea and drowning, and you go out in your boat to save him. Then when you have him out of the water and into the boat, is he saved from drowning?

Yes he is, but while he is still in the boat, he is still being saved.
When you reach the dry land then he will be fully saved.

If someone is in the sea drowning and they are rescued at that time then they are saved at that time.

With the promise there are conditions that accompany the promise that will deterimine who will receive what God has promised. We are not yet out of danger, we are not yet safe.

Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The person in the sea must wait until they are out of the sea in order to say they are saved. As long as they are in the sea there is a chance they could be lost.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2011, 03:32 PM
The promise:

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What does it mean to labour for the meat that endureth?

Jn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Firtfruits

Caleb
Apr 11th 2011, 07:11 PM
If someone is in the sea drowning and they are rescued at that time then they are saved at that time.

With the promise there are conditions that accompany the promise that will deterimine who will receive what God has promised. We are not yet out of danger, we are not yet safe.

Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The person in the sea must wait until they are out of the sea in order to say they are saved. As long as they are in the sea there is a chance they could be lost.

Firstfruits

What (according to that passage) is it that we need to endure?

percho
Apr 11th 2011, 07:57 PM
With regards to the choices given with the promise, I believe it will be saved from.

Firstfruits

I think I would tend to agree being we all die in Adam therefore we have to be saved from, that is given the gift.

percho
Apr 11th 2011, 07:58 PM
The promise:

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What does it mean to labour for the meat that endureth?

Jn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Firtfruits

Manna from heaven?

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2011, 07:55 AM
What (according to that passage) is it that we need to endure?

The world/life and all it has to throw at us.

1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2011, 07:58 AM
I think I would tend to agree being we all die in Adam therefore we have to be saved from, that is given the gift.

The choice in the scripture is between perishing or everlasting life. When we believe and also do that which Christ has commanded we will not perish.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Firstfruits

Caleb
Apr 12th 2011, 02:11 PM
The world/life and all it has to throw at us.

1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Firstfruits

Thanks, and so if were are born of God, then the evidence will be that we endure to the end.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2011, 02:23 PM
Thanks, and so if were are born of God, then the evidence will be that we endure to the end.

Yes, that is what I believe according to what is written.

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 12th 2011, 06:52 PM
The choice in the scripture is between perishing or everlasting life. When we believe and also do that which Christ has commanded we will not perish.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Firstfruits

I sorry I wasn't paying attention I believe final death will be destruction.

dan p
Apr 12th 2011, 07:08 PM
Hi Firstfruit , when talking about

dan p
Apr 12th 2011, 07:20 PM
Hi Firstfruit , the best way that I see , to explain OSAS , is John 19:30 , where Jesus says " it is finished "

It is in the Greek Perfect Tense .

It looks like this in my Greek book Dot ____________________________________

The word dot is Past Action and the line is the Continuing Results .

The Past Action was the Cross 2000 years ago .

The line represents the Continuing Action , which means Christ is saving people in the Present .

What these means , Jesus will never have to go back on a Cross and die for Sins anymore .

Jesus died for Sins , Past , Present , and for the Future .

It means that since we were saved in the Past , we always live in the Present and that means OSAS .

That , is why in EPH 2:8 , " For by grace are ye saved " , saved is in the Perfect tense , saved in the Past and the Continuing Results is always salvation , for we live in the present . dan p

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2011, 07:22 PM
I sorry I wasn't paying attention I believe final death will be destruction.

Would that be the lake of fire as that is the second death, if so what does Jesus say is condemnation that would cause someone to perish?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2011, 07:25 PM
Hi Firstfruit , the best way that I see , to explain OSAS , is John 19:30 , where Jesus says " it is finished "

It is in the Greek Perfect Tense .

It looks like this in my Greek book Dot ____________________________________

The word dot is Past Action and the line is the Continuing Results .

The Past Action was the Cross 2000 years ago .

The line represents the Continuing Action , which means Christ is saving people in the Present .

What these means , Jesus will never have to go back on a Cross and die for Sins anymore .

Jesus died for Sins , Past , Present , and for the Future .

It means that since we were saved in the Past , we always live in the Present and that means OSAS .

That , is why in EPH 2:8 , " For by grace are ye saved " , saved is in the Perfect tense , saved in the Past and the Continuing Results is always salvation , for we live in the present . dan p

Jesus has set conditions regarding who will perish and who will have everlasting life. We will be judged according to His conditions.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 07:57 AM
If we are already saved then it is no longer a promise.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2011, 02:14 PM
With the choices given here, what is it that we are to be saved from?

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Firstfruits

LankyLee
Apr 18th 2011, 10:05 AM
What is it that we shall be saved from?

Firstfruits

"What is it that we shall be saved from".....hmmmmm

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2011, 02:15 PM
"What is it that we shall be saved from".....hmmmmm

I asked the question according to this scripture.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Firstfruits

david
Apr 19th 2011, 06:09 PM
If we are already saved then it is no longer a promise.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Firstfruits

There is no difference between being saved now and being saved later. Did you know that God already saved us before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)? Being saved means to be saved from dying. If you're confused about what the promise is, it is eternal life (1 John 2:25). and what is eternal life? it is God himself (1 John 5:20).

Firstfruits
Apr 19th 2011, 07:59 PM
There is no difference between being saved now and being saved later. Did you know that God already saved us before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)? Being saved means to be saved from dying. If you're confused about what the promise is, it is eternal life (1 John 2:25). and what is eternal life? it is God himself (1 John 5:20).

With the understanding that we are yet to die, as decreed by God, which death are you refering to?

Firstfruits

david
Apr 19th 2011, 08:10 PM
With the understanding that we are yet to die, as decreed by God, which death are you refering to?

Firstfruits

Those who live and believe in him will never die (John 11:26). the only time we christians ever die is the moment we first believed in Jesus. That is when we died to our sins, and our "old self" had been crucified with Jesus (Romans 6:6). This is why it says there is a time to die in Ecclesiastes 3:2. We who believed in Jesus only died once, but those who have never believed in jesus and will never ever believe in Jesus will die the second death (Revelation 21:8).

Firstfruits
Apr 19th 2011, 08:26 PM
Those who live and believe in him will never die (John 11:26). the only time we christians ever die is the moment we first believed in Jesus. That is when we died to our sins, and our "old self" had been crucified with Jesus (Romans 6:6). This is why it says there is a time to die in Ecclesiastes 3:2. We who believed in Jesus only died once, but those who have never believed in jesus and will never ever believe in Jesus will die the second death (Revelation 21:8).

So with regards to this scripture, believers are not expected to die?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Again I ask which death you are refering to?

Firstfruits

david
Apr 19th 2011, 09:04 PM
So with regards to this scripture, believers are not expected to die?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Again I ask which death you are refering to?

Firstfruits

believers are not expected to die. heb 9.27 speaks of nonbelievers who have never believed and will never believe. but for believers,

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24

Firstfruits
Apr 19th 2011, 10:27 PM
believers are not expected to die. heb 9.27 speaks of nonbelievers who have never believed and will never believe. but for believers,

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24

With all the saints that have died and gone before, are you saying that they have not died?

Firstfruits

david
Apr 19th 2011, 11:26 PM
With all the saints that have died and gone before, are you saying that they have not died?

Firstfruits

Yes. Paul is still alive today, though he fell asleep in Christ.

percho
Apr 20th 2011, 02:24 AM
With all the saints that have died and gone before, are you saying that they have not died?

Firstfruits

I thought they were dead in Christ. Um maybe they are just asleep. I wonder if this is like a nap or ole Rip Van?

percho
Apr 20th 2011, 02:31 AM
Yes. Paul is still alive today, though he fell asleep in Christ.

Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. I know this was pre death and resurrection of Jesus but that did not change that people die. Paul is dead just like David was on the day of Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of Jesus. Acts 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day

david
Apr 20th 2011, 04:27 AM
We were once dead in our trespasses in Ephesians 2:1, but then we were made alive together with Christ in Ephesians 2:5. And everyone who lives and believes in God will never die in John 11:26. This makes it clear that we who live and believe in Christ will never be dead again, like we once were. David was not alive when he believed in God, which is why he is dead now. He was still dead in his trespasses before Christ came.

Ezer Kenegdo
Apr 20th 2011, 05:19 AM
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. I know this was pre death and resurrection of Jesus but that did not change that people die. Paul is dead just like David was on the day of Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of Jesus. Acts 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this daySo what do you do with this?

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

ESV
Act 2:29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

YLT
Act 2:29 `Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day;

ASV
Act 2:29 Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day.
When people die now, post cross, they do not go to paradise. They go to be with the Lord. They are not separated by sin as they were pre-cross.

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2011, 01:13 PM
Yes. Paul is still alive today, though he fell asleep in Christ.

I cannot believe you are saying that Paul is not physically dead, If you are, please explain?
,
Firstfruits

david
Apr 21st 2011, 05:01 PM
I cannot believe you are saying that Paul is not physically dead, If you are, please explain?
,
Firstfruits

That which is born of spirit is spirit (John 3:6). Paul is spirit, not flesh. If Paul is spirit, then though his body is dead because of sin, his spirit is life because of righteousness (Romans 8:10). We were all once flesh before, but now that we have believed in Jesus Christ, we have been reborn as spirits.

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2011, 05:03 PM
That which is born of spirit is spirit (John 3:6). Paul is spirit, not flesh. If Paul is spirit, then though his body is dead because of sin, his spirit is life because of righteousness (Romans 8:10). We were all once flesh before, but now that we have believed in Jesus Christ, we have been reborn as spirits.

So you are really saying that Paul is physically dead then?

Firstfruits

david
Apr 21st 2011, 05:58 PM
So you are really saying that Paul is physically dead then?

Firstfruits

His body is dead, but his spirit is alive.

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2011, 06:11 PM
His body is dead, but his spirit is alive.

According to the following Paul finished the course and kept the faith

2 Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

So Paul endured to the end, meaning that nothing can change his standing with God.

Firstfruits

david
Apr 21st 2011, 06:12 PM
According to the following Paul finished the course and kept the faith

2 Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

So Paul endured to the end, meaning that nothing can change his standing with God.

Firstfruits

This is true! Hallelujah!

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2011, 06:23 PM
This is true! Hallelujah!

Should we endevour to live as Paul lived in order for us to be also secure?

Phil 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 21st 2011, 06:49 PM
Should we endevour to live as Paul lived in order for us to be also secure?

Phil 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Firstfruits

This is an exhortation.

david
Apr 21st 2011, 06:52 PM
Should we endevour to live as Paul lived in order for us to be also secure?

Phil 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Firstfruits

Oh yea definitely. It says we should "strive to enter" the rest of God in Hebrews 4:11. We shouldn't be sitting around having hope but doing nothing, for then we would be living in poverty. Life is a wonderful, activity-filled thing.

Love not sleep, lest you come to poverty; open your eyes, and you will have plenty of bread. Proverbs 20:13

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2011, 06:57 PM
Oh yea definitely. It says we should "strive to enter" the rest of God in Hebrews 4:11. We shouldn't be sitting around having hope but doing nothing, for then we would be living in poverty. Life is a wonderful, activity-filled thing.

Love not sleep, lest you come to poverty; open your eyes, and you will have plenty of bread. Proverbs 20:13

Amen!!!

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2011, 01:51 PM
If we are already saved then may I ask who Paul was speaking to?

Who was the message for?

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Rom 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Who are those that know the truth?

Firstfruits

david
Apr 24th 2011, 12:33 AM
Ro 13:4 and ro 2.5 relates to Hebrews 12:5-11 about God disciplining us for us doing the things we don't want to do:
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:5-11

We are being disciplined as sons until we completely lose our old self, which is the sin in us that is continually wasting away.
So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, 2 Corinthians 4:16-17

As for God's fury, it is temporary and we are disciplined by his fury.
For his anger is but for a moment, and his favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning. Psalm 30:5
For God speaks in one way, and in two, though man does not perceive it. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men, while they slumber on their beds, then he opens the ears of men and terrifies them with warnings, that he may turn man aside from his deed and conceal pride from a man; he keeps back his soul from the pit, his life from perishing by the sword. “Man is also rebuked with pain on his bed and with continual strife in his bones, so that his life loathes bread, and his appetite the choicest food. His flesh is so wasted away that it cannot be seen, and his bones that were not seen stick out. His soul draws near the pit, and his life to those who bring death. If there be for him an angel, a mediator, one of the thousand, to declare to man what is right for him, and he is merciful to him, and says, ‘Deliver him from going down into the pit; I have found a ransom; let his flesh become fresh with youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor’; then man prays to God, and he accepts him; he sees his face with a shout of joy, and he restores to man his righteousness. He sings before men and says: ‘I sinned and perverted what was right, and it was not repaid to me. He has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit, and my life shall look upon the light.’ “Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life. Job 33:14-30

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2011, 08:09 AM
Ro 13:4 and ro 2.5 relates to Hebrews 12:5-11 about God disciplining us for us doing the things we don't want to do:
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:5-11

We are being disciplined as sons until we completely lose our old self, which is the sin in us that is continually wasting away.
So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, 2 Corinthians 4:16-17

As for God's fury, it is temporary and we are disciplined by his fury.
For his anger is but for a moment, and his favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning. Psalm 30:5
For God speaks in one way, and in two, though man does not perceive it. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men, while they slumber on their beds, then he opens the ears of men and terrifies them with warnings, that he may turn man aside from his deed and conceal pride from a man; he keeps back his soul from the pit, his life from perishing by the sword. “Man is also rebuked with pain on his bed and with continual strife in his bones, so that his life loathes bread, and his appetite the choicest food. His flesh is so wasted away that it cannot be seen, and his bones that were not seen stick out. His soul draws near the pit, and his life to those who bring death. If there be for him an angel, a mediator, one of the thousand, to declare to man what is right for him, and he is merciful to him, and says, ‘Deliver him from going down into the pit; I have found a ransom; let his flesh become fresh with youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor’; then man prays to God, and he accepts him; he sees his face with a shout of joy, and he restores to man his righteousness. He sings before men and says: ‘I sinned and perverted what was right, and it was not repaid to me. He has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit, and my life shall look upon the light.’ “Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life. Job 33:14-30

Is there not a difference between discipline and "The wrath of God"?

These scriptures speak of Gods wrath.

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Firstfruits

david
Apr 25th 2011, 12:27 AM
Is there not a difference between discipline and "The wrath of God"?

These scriptures speak of Gods wrath.

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Firstfruits

There is no difference between the wrath of God on believers and God's discipline on his children. If you look at Ezekiel 16, it shows the story of God's relationship with Israel, his chosen ones. If they had sinned and God did not punish them for it, what kind of father would that be? But he did punish them for their sins and satisfy his wrath on Israel, but take a look at this:
So will I satisfy my wrath on you, and my jealousy shall depart from you. I will be calm and will no more be angry. Ezekiel 16:42
His wrath on his chosen ones are temporary, and the end is an eternal covenant with Israel that cannot be altered:
yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. Ezekiel 16:60
Therefore when God satisfies his wrath on us, his believers, he is really disciplining us as his own children so that we do not become evil but be good, like he is. He will "surely" discipline us to perfection.
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2011, 12:15 PM
There is no difference between the wrath of God on believers and God's discipline on his children. If you look at Ezekiel 16, it shows the story of God's relationship with Israel, his chosen ones. If they had sinned and God did not punish them for it, what kind of father would that be? But he did punish them for their sins and satisfy his wrath on Israel, but take a look at this:
So will I satisfy my wrath on you, and my jealousy shall depart from you. I will be calm and will no more be angry. Ezekiel 16:42
His wrath on his chosen ones are temporary, and the end is an eternal covenant with Israel that cannot be altered:
yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. Ezekiel 16:60
Therefore when God satisfies his wrath on us, his believers, he is really disciplining us as his own children so that we do not become evil but be good, like he is. He will "surely" discipline us to perfection.
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

How are they the same since Gods wrath is on those that do not obey the truth?

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

For believers it is not so, believers face hardship because of obedience to the truth.

Mt 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

They are surely not the same.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Firstfruits

Indueseason
Apr 25th 2011, 05:24 PM
1 Peter 1:3-5 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

blessings to you :hug:

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2011, 08:36 PM
1 Peter 1:3-5 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

blessings to you :hug:

Thank you Indueseason,

God bless you!!!!

david
Apr 25th 2011, 08:41 PM
How are they the same since Gods wrath is on those that do not obey the truth?

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

For believers it is not so, believers face hardship because of obedience to the truth.

Mt 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

They are surely not the same.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Firstfruits

Hearing the word and not doing it results in the same consequence that applies to all.
“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” Matthew 7:24-27

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2011, 08:50 PM
Hearing the word and not doing it results in the same consequence that applies to all.
“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” Matthew 7:24-27

But that is punishment from God, but when a believer does the will of God and is persecuted for doing so, that cannot be Gods wrath.

Firstfruits

RollTide21
Apr 25th 2011, 09:06 PM
The person in the sea must wait until they are out of the sea in order to say they are saved. As long as they are in the sea there is a chance they could be lost.

FirstfruitsHaha. I like this analogy. One problem, though: That's a pretty low level of confidence you have in the boat that God Himself has provided. Can we not trust that His craft is secure and strong enough to brave the sea and get us to shore?

david
Apr 25th 2011, 09:20 PM
But that is punishment from God, but when a believer does the will of God and is persecuted for doing so, that cannot be Gods wrath.

Firstfruits

Firstly, all who desire to live a godly life will be persecuted. It is a fact (2 Timothy 3:12).

Trials are for the testing of our faith, not just because we disobeyed him.
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. James 1:2-4

Did you read about Job and how he was so righteous yet he suffered so much? Or about a man blind from birth yet it wasn't his or his parents' fault that he was blind? All things work together for good for those who love him, no matter if it is trials or persecutions or anything (Romans 8:28).

Illumined
Apr 26th 2011, 01:58 AM
According to the following scripture, are we already saved or are we waiting to be saved?

Rom 8:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 8:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Firstfruits

John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Galatians 4:6
….God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts,…
John 17:26
….and that I myself may be in them.”
Galatians 2:20
………Christ lives in me.

Philippians 1:19
…the spirit of Jesus Christ
1 Corinthians 15:45
……. the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit.
1 John 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:11
…….. God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Acts 19:2
and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

Romans 8:9 (http://bibleforums.org/%5Ccgi-bin%5Cbible?passage=ROM+8:9&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
…….. if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2011, 10:28 AM
Haha. I like this analogy. One problem, though: That's a pretty low level of confidence you have in the boat that God Himself has provided. Can we not trust that His craft is secure and strong enough to brave the sea and get us to shore?

Well if you believe, you will not perish, but you will be saved. The believer must endure until the end and then he shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2011, 10:32 AM
Firstly, all who desire to live a godly life will be persecuted. It is a fact (2 Timothy 3:12).

Trials are for the testing of our faith, not just because we disobeyed him.
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. James 1:2-4

Did you read about Job and how he was so righteous yet he suffered so much? Or about a man blind from birth yet it wasn't his or his parents' fault that he was blind? All things work together for good for those who love him, no matter if it is trials or persecutions or anything (Romans 8:28).

That then cannot be the wrath of God, which is on the disobedient. Persecution of the saints is because of obedience to the will of God.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2011, 10:36 AM
John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Galatians 4:6
….God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts,…
John 17:26
….and that I myself may be in them.”
Galatians 2:20
………Christ lives in me.

Philippians 1:19
…the spirit of Jesus Christ
1 Corinthians 15:45
……. the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit.
1 John 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:11
…….. God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Acts 19:2
and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

Romans 8:9 (http://bibleforums.org/%5Ccgi-bin%5Cbible?passage=ROM+8:9&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
…….. if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

With the understanding that the alternative to being saved is to perish, which is at the end of time, and also when we are told that we shall be saved if we endure to the end, are we already saved or is it a promise?

Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Firstfruits

BadDog
Apr 26th 2011, 11:20 AM
According to the following scripture, are we already saved or are we waiting to be saved?

Rom 8:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 8:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

FirstfruitsDon't have much time, but let me make a quick comment here. When we consider how "hope" is used in the NT we must keep a couple of things in mind:
1) "Hope" does not mean we do not yet know if we will receive it. It simply means that we look forward to it in faith - it is a future promised guarantee.

2) "Hope" as used in the NT always refers to receiving our new resurrected bodies.

So Paul is speaking about receiving our promised resurrected bodies so that we will see Him "as He is" when He returns.

Also, I suggest that people here look at such texts as this one in more than just the KJV - that may make the meaning more clear.

BD

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2011, 11:38 AM
Don't have much time, but let me make a quick comment here. When we consider how "hope" is used in the NT we must keep a couple of things in mind:
1) "Hope" does not mean we do not yet know if we will receive it. It simply means that we look forward to it in faith - it is a future promised guarantee.

2) "Hope" as used in the NT always refers to receiving our new resurrected bodies.

So Paul is speaking about receiving our promised resurrected bodies so that we will see Him "as He is" when He returns.

Also, I suggest that people here look at such texts as this one in more than just the KJV - that may make the meaning more clear.

BD

Does the same apply concerning salvation in this scripture?

1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Firstfruits

LankyLee
Apr 27th 2011, 01:31 AM
According to the following scripture, are we already saved or are we waiting to be saved?

Rom 8:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 8:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Firstfruits

we are saved now.

notice ROM 8 :25 does not end with a question mark .

so it could be read: since we have hope for what we see not, we will with pattience wait for it.

the hope is heaven--you're saved now--you go to heaven later

percho
Apr 27th 2011, 03:39 AM
we are saved now.

notice ROM 8 :25 does not end with a question mark .

so it could be read: since we have hope for what we see not, we will with pattience wait for it.

the hope is heaven--you're saved now--you go to heaven later

Where in scripture does it say you go to heaven? I know we say that but does the scripture say that?

LankyLee
Apr 27th 2011, 03:45 AM
Where in scripture does it say you go to heaven? I know we say that but does the scripture say that?

God is in heaven.
Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of the Father.
Jsesus said he was going to prepare a place for us, and come again to recieve us, so that where he is we will be also.

Ascender
Apr 27th 2011, 06:57 AM
I have been saved as I prayed in faith believing in His Grace manifested in the life and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I am saved as I walk in the light as He is in the light thus having fellowship with Him and He with me.
I am being saved as I progress and grow in the nurture and admonition of my mentors and elders in the Lord.
I will be saved as I persevere and remain in the Vine, faithful to the end.

This is Scripture.

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2011, 08:04 AM
we are saved now.

notice ROM 8 :25 does not end with a question mark .

so it could be read: since we have hope for what we see not, we will with pattience wait for it.

the hope is heaven--you're saved now--you go to heaven later

So have unbelievers already perished, which is what believers are saved from?

Is it not a promise of what is to come?

Do you know of any living unbelievers that have already perished? Can they be saved?

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 29th 2011, 05:13 AM
God is in heaven.
Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of the Father.
Jsesus said he was going to prepare a place for us, and come again to recieve us, so that where he is we will be also.

Arrange these scriptures chronological order.

Acts 15:14 After this (The calling out from among the Gentiles a people for his name.) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede (Go before where?) those who are asleep.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, ye may be also. Where will he be when he comes again?