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LankyLee
Apr 9th 2011, 12:30 AM
I have been discussing this among friends and we have several different views about what the meaning behind the story is.

??????
anyone care to try and explain this book and the meaning.

Here is the question that was posed to me.

Why would God have to prove anything to Satan about one of his righteous people in the way he did it?

I need to study up on this and maybe get a few words from some here about this, because the topic will come up again and I would like to present a response with more depth next time.

My response was the basic.
satan thought without Gods protection and blessings Job would turn from God. God knew Job would not, so he allowed satan to bring heartache on Job. Although Job did ask why he never cursed God, and praised God throughout the ordeal. Job endured and was restored with more blessings in the end. Bad things do happen to the righteous and we can't explain this mystery of God with our human brain.

This is about all I had, which did not seem to satisfy

.....help

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2011, 12:37 AM
The situation with Job happened because Job needed to learn and grow in his knowledge of the Lord. I do not believe God was allowing Satan to do stuff to Job in order to basically prove Satan wrong. God doesn't have to prove anything, and I certainly do not believe that God is insecure enough to be coerced into doing something because Satan was trying to push His buttons.

I think people often mistake blameless for sinless perfection or something. Job was blameless but he wasn't perfect.

IMINXTC
Apr 9th 2011, 12:39 AM
Q: Must God's people suffer?

A: Why not?

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2011, 12:40 AM
Q: Must God's people suffer?

A: Why not?

You answered your own question with why not?

IMINXTC
Apr 9th 2011, 12:46 AM
An old addage concerning the book of Job and it's purpose.

Butch5
Apr 9th 2011, 12:48 AM
I have been discussing this among friends and we have several different views about what the meaning behind the story is.

??????
anyone care to try and explain this book and the meaning.

Here is the question that was posed to me.

Why would God have to prove anything to Satan about one of his righteous people in the way he did it?

I need to study up on this and maybe get a few words from some here about this, because the topic will come up again and I would like to present a response with more depth next time.

My response was the basic.
satan thought without Gods protection and blessings Job would turn from God. God knew Job would not, so he allowed satan to bring heartache on Job. Although Job did ask why he never cursed God, and praised God throughout the ordeal. Job endured and was restored with more blessings in the end. Bad things do happen to the righteous and we can't explain this mystery of God with our human brain.

This is about all I had, which did not seem to satisfy

.....help


Why would God have to prove anything to Satan about one of his righteous people in the way he did it?

I don't think He was proving it to Satan. I think he was proving it to the angles.


Ephesians 3:7-13 ( KJV )
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

LankyLee
Apr 9th 2011, 12:57 AM
I don't think He was proving it to Satan. I think he was proving it to the angles.


My friend will like that one. We have not thought to bring this up.......yet.

Butch5
Apr 9th 2011, 01:43 AM
My friend will like that one. We have not thought to bring this up.......yet.

There is a line of thought that you can't really look into the Scriptures and say here it is. But it is Kind of hinted at. The idea is that God is showing the angels that he is just. The idea is that Satan charged God as unjust and God is showing that He is just. He is basically defending his character. As I said, you can't really pinpoint it, but there are things that kind of hint at it, such as that passage in Ephesians. Another thing that hints at it is the Ransom that Jesus Paid. The early church held a different understanding of the Atonement than the one the church holds today. They saw Adam and Eve's fall in garden as obeying Satan and consequently falling under his power by obeying. God definitely had the power to destroy Satan and take mankind back, yet he didn't instead, He paid a ransom for mankind. Again this seems to point to the idea of God justifying His Character before the angles.

I also think that iswhy Paul told the women to veil their heads. It is an act of obedience showing they are sumbissive to their headship. He says to do this because of the angles. I think he is referring to what he said in Ephesians 3.

1 Corinthians 11:2-10 ( KJV )
Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

episkopos
Apr 9th 2011, 02:00 AM
The book of Job is about a righteous man learning holiness. He receives the double portion through suffering as a witness of God's faithfulness. He meets the Lord after he is tested. The trials are meant to elevate him into God's presence.

divaD
Apr 9th 2011, 02:27 AM
The situation with Job happened because Job needed to learn and grow in his knowledge of the Lord. I do not believe God was allowing Satan to do stuff to Job in order to basically prove Satan wrong. God doesn't have to prove anything, and I certainly do not believe that God is insecure enough to be coerced into doing something because Satan was trying to push His buttons.

I think people often mistake blameless for sinless perfection or something. Job was blameless but he wasn't perfect.


But wasn't it satan's idea in the first place? Had not satan brought up the fact that God had a hedge around Job, etc, would there have even been any need on God's part to allow satan to do certain things?

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face

Had not satan challenged, what would have motivated God to allow satan to do certain things to Job and his house? Do you think if satan wouldn't have made a single mention of anything here, that God would still have said..you know what, satan? Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. That doesn't even make sense nor agrees with the context, if we take satan's challenge out of the picture.

teddyv
Apr 9th 2011, 03:35 AM
I'll just throw this out there. I have been slowly reading through the on-line version of this book. It is a very interesting read, but I'm only part way through it so have no conclusions. I agree with the main point of the book being a theodicy. The entire book is available here.
http://www.bookofjob.org/

There is also a link to a summary:
http://www.bookofjob.org/quick%20summary2.htm

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2011, 03:38 AM
But wasn't it satan's idea in the first place? Had not satan brought up the fact that God had a hedge around Job, etc, would there have even been any need on God's part to allow satan to do certain things?

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face

Had not satan challenged, what would have motivated God to allow satan to do certain things to Job and his house? Do you think if satan wouldn't have made a single mention of anything here, that God would still have said..you know what, satan? Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. That doesn't even make sense nor agrees with the context, if we take satan's challenge out of the picture.

I don't focus on Satan's challenge. Had there been no benefit for Job, I don't think it ever would have happened . . . challenge or not. I believe God's ultimate motivation for the trials in Job's life is seen at the end of the book when Job repents.

Phish
Apr 9th 2011, 03:45 AM
I don't focus on Satan's challenge. Had there been no benefit for Job, I don't think it ever would have happened . . . challenge or not. I believe God's ultimate motivation for the trials in Job's life is seen at the end of the book when Job repents.

Spot on......................

LookingUp
Apr 9th 2011, 07:03 AM
I don't think He was proving it to Satan. I think he was proving it to the angles.


Ephesians 3:7-13 ( KJV )
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.:agree: :thumbsup:

ProDeo
Apr 9th 2011, 10:12 AM
I don't think He was proving it to Satan. I think he was proving it to the angles.

Precisely.

Scripture that goes even further,

1 Cor 4:9 For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to die, because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to people.

God not only teaches us. Angels too. May angels ever wonder why hell is a too harsh punishment for their fallen brethren because of their rebellion then looking at the things their fallen brethren did to God's creation they will notice God's justice and the righteousness and that it will be fair they deserve the Lake of Fire.

Rullion Green
Apr 9th 2011, 11:26 AM
I used to see it as what happens when bad things happen to good guys, if your going through trials read the book of Job. Then i read a book by Jon Levenson (Jewish scholar Harvard) which i had to read it as part of my ANE study class, glad i did it turned my view 180. I dont see it now as a Theodicy but as a Theocentric treaties which shifts the focus from man to God, for me the climax of the book is when God speaks to Job, God never answers the "Why are these things happening "question, instead he gives a list of rhetorical questions regarding cosmogony displaying His Glory and highlighting Jobs (men in general) ignorance of very common things, things that happen every day like how does the sun come up and such like, showing we have no capacity at all to understand the basics let alone question God on "why" or how He runs the cosmos.

This universe is Theocentric not anthropocentric the world does not revolve around us but God, and Levenson claims to question the justice of God and demand to know "why" in a stubborn self righteous way is to question His very mastery of the universe, He is soverign and in complete and utter control of the cosmos and so to doubt this, is to doubt that fact either that He is good or competent. To think you could do a better job at running the cosmos is to be like the hubris one, who thought he could asend and be like the Most High and do a better job of running things.

It's not all about Majestic sovereignty though, there is grace and comfort in the latter chapters where God graciously gives back and the later part is better than the first so even though trial come, trust in God and put your hope in Him, as His grace is sufficient. To me this is the book of job. maybe not the common view but its a view.

notuptome
Apr 9th 2011, 12:49 PM
God brought up Job not satan. Satan had noticed Job but satan would not dare to address God without being addressed first. Job 1:8

God did not allow Job to be tested for the edification of the angels. That is a rather unusual idea. All that God does is for His glory. Jobs testing drew him closer to God and gave him a more intimate relationship with God. Learning to trust God is a lesson we all face. Trusting God not only for eternal life but for each days specific needs.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Servant89
Apr 9th 2011, 01:35 PM
Why would God have to prove anything to Satan about one of his righteous people in the way he did it?

Prov 15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

Prov 18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and Before honour is humility.

Remember the story of Joseph? Christians should not expect to be governors of Egypt without having their brothers sell them out or go to jail for something they did not do.

It does not make sense for Jesus to arrive without a cross and say to us: "Bow down to me, trust me, I deserve to be worshipped". No. Instead, he showed us why he is worthy to receive praise and worship.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Remember Paul? Acts 9:16 For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Remember Nahman the Syrian? Before healing him, he had to take a dip in a dirty river.

Remember Israel in Egypt? Before setting them free, Pharaoh was hard on them.

Remember the nation of Israel? Before being born in 1948, they had the holocaust.

Remember our King Jesus being born in a manger?

2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

God had a huge trophy in heaven for Job. But it does not make sense to give him that trophy without demonstrating why God gave it to him. Now we know.

This is a basic Christian principle. Let me say it again: "Before honor, there is humility".

P.S. Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

And humility has nothing to do with keeping the law.

1 Pet 5:5 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.


Shalom

LankyLee
Apr 9th 2011, 01:42 PM
I don't focus on Satan's challenge. Had there been no benefit for Job, I don't think it ever would have happened . . . challenge or not. I believe God's ultimate motivation for the trials in Job's life is seen at the end of the book when Job repents.

When debating an atheist you can't just leave out that much of the passage.
We as believers see these things in a different light.

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2011, 01:59 PM
When debating an atheist you can't just leave out that much of the passage.
We as believers see these things in a different light.

I don't think anything is being left out. I think it is putting things in its proper perspective. The purpose was not to prove Satan wrong. God had a much loftier purpose than that.

I also don't believe that this was some occasion where God decided to do this because He is sovereign and "in control" of all things. To me, that is an incorrect view of God's sovereignty.

Rullion Green
Apr 9th 2011, 02:32 PM
I also don't believe that this was some occasion where God decided to do this because He is sovereign and "in control" of all things. To me, that is an incorrect view of God's sovereignty.

What do you see these rhetorical questions as showing then if not Gods mastery of the universe and highlighting our lack of understanding ?

watchinginawe
Apr 9th 2011, 02:37 PM
My response was the basic.
satan thought without Gods protection and blessings Job would turn from God. God knew Job would not, so he allowed satan to bring heartache on Job. Although Job did ask why he never cursed God, and praised God throughout the ordeal. Job endured and was restored with more blessings in the end. Bad things do happen to the righteous and we can't explain this mystery of God with our human brain.

This is about all I had, which did not seem to satisfy

.....help That is a pretty good answer. One way to understand the Book of Job is in answer to the question: Why do we serve God? Is it so that God will build a hedge around us and bless us? That was Satan's accusation, he was suggesting that God is worshipped only for the blessings. Job answers: Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. Job's motives are proven pure.

Another or additional way to look at the book is as a challenge to Deuteronomic Justice, or basically that serving God brings forth blessings and sin brings forth cursing. Job's friends insisted that he had sinned and that was the cause of his suffering. They were miserable comforters and proven wrong. Job had to forgive them though. :)

Another or additional way is the relation of man to God and his understanding of Him and His ways. Things are not centered upon man, but rather God. Man can often get very "self" centered on their view of things.

divaD
Apr 9th 2011, 03:18 PM
I don't focus on Satan's challenge. Had there been no benefit for Job, I don't think it ever would have happened . . . challenge or not. I believe God's ultimate motivation for the trials in Job's life is seen at the end of the book when Job repents.



I don't disagree with the end result, all turned out good. Had not satan challenged God, so to speak, I still fail to see what would have ever motivated God to put Job in satan's hands in the first place. Since God first mentioned Job to satan, do you then think God put it in satan's heart to challenge Him, so that Job could repent in the end? If satan has free will and can think for himself, then why would it have not been satan's idea to challenge God about the hedge? When satan caused man to fall in the garden, did God put that in satan's heart, so that man would fall? Or is it more likely, since satan apparently has a mind of his own, he himself came up with the idea?

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2011, 05:32 PM
What do you see these rhetorical questions as showing then if not Gods mastery of the universe and highlighting our lack of understanding ?

I don't think God's rhetorical questions were an indication that His allowing these things to come upon Job were for the purposes of showing His sovereignty if that is what you are asking.

I think to apply that to God would be a gross error. Let's say, for example, that a father decides to take his son and beat him thoroughly with a baseball bat simply for the purposes of showing his son that he is in control of him. What sort of picture do you think this paints of the father? Loving? Compassionate? No, we would say that father is an absolute monster. Likewise, God was not allowing terrible things in Job's life simply to show how powerful and sovereign He is. He allowed it for Job's benefit.

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2011, 05:35 PM
I don't disagree with the end result, all turned out good. Had not satan challenged God, so to speak, I still fail to see what would have ever motivated God to put Job in satan's hands in the first place. Since God first mentioned Job to satan, do you then think God put it in satan's heart to challenge Him, so that Job could repent in the end? If satan has free will and can think for himself, then why would it have not been satan's idea to challenge God about the hedge? When satan caused man to fall in the garden, did God put that in satan's heart, so that man would fall? Or is it more likely, since satan apparently has a mind of his own, he himself came up with the idea?

Do you not think that God saw a need for change in Job? Do you think it took Satan's challenge to God in order for Him to see it? I, personally, would not believe this to be the case. I think God knew all along what change needed to be brought about in Job, and I believe He knew exactly what it would take to bring this change about. God, because He knows all things, understood exactly what it would take to bring about His will in the life of His child.

Rullion Green
Apr 9th 2011, 05:42 PM
I don't think God's rhetorical questions were an indication that His allowing these things to come upon Job were for the purposes of showing His sovereignty if that is what you are asking.
.

I said the purpose of the book was theocentric, reversing the Focus on man and putting God at the forefront, looking away from self to God. To me this is what Job does when he repents, God's mastery of the universe is part of the book, you seemed to have latched on to the sovereignty part of the post and made far more out of it than i posted, maybe that my fault for not being clear. I wont defend your analogy to me, because it not my view to defend. I wrote about Gods grace also.

divaD
Apr 9th 2011, 07:00 PM
Do you not think that God saw a need for change in Job? Do you think it took Satan's challenge to God in order for Him to see it? I, personally, would not believe this to be the case. I think God knew all along what change needed to be brought about in Job, and I believe He knew exactly what it would take to bring this change about. God, because He knows all things, understood exactly what it would take to bring about His will in the life of His child.




I'm not disagreeing with you so much, it's that we're each coming from a different perspective I think. We both acknowledge what satan said in the beginning of ch 1. To me, you seem to think it had little to do with anything. I tend to think it had a lot to do with everything. It's what got the ball rolling and gave God a reason to allow what happens to Job. Had not satan challenged God the way he did, I can't imagine what would have possessed God to subject Job in the manner he was subjected.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

What more could God want out of anyone? Job was a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil. Wasn't that the kind of person God would be desiring? What else would there to be to add to that at this point?

But notice what satan then says.

Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.


That's what got the ball rolling. But what happens to Job at this point, I fail to see what it has to do with anything in the way he was depicted in verse 1 and 8. Before satan got a hold of Job, God had already concluded that Job was a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil. God Himself concluded that. satan challenged that, since he only believed Job was that way because the LORD had blessed Him. Take away what he has, and you will see that Job was only pretending, so to speak, since he knew he had much to gain by doing so. This would be coming from satan's perspective, But God knew Job's heart, satan didn't...thus begins the saga. But anyway that's the perspective I'm coming from.

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2011, 07:38 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you so much, it's that we're each coming from a different perspective I think. We both acknowledge what satan said in the beginning of ch 1. To me, you seem to think it had little to do with anything. I tend to think it had a lot to do with everything. It's what got the ball rolling and gave God a reason to allow what happens to Job. Had not satan challenged God the way he did, I can't imagine what would have possessed God to subject Job in the manner he was subjected.

To me, that view seems to indicate that Satan can instigate God to react the way His creation would. I don't think Satan got anything rolling. It's not like anything Satan said caught God by surprise. He knew Satan's words before he spoke them. God also knew the situation with Job long before Satan came to Him. God mentioned Job for a reason, and it was actually God that got the ball rolling. He's the one who mentioned Job to Satan. His reasoning for doing so is what is revealed at the end of the book. Job had a need, and sometimes life shows us that we have to go through some adversity in order to bring about a greater good.

Servant89
Apr 9th 2011, 10:08 PM
The only bad thing that job did, was to question God and demand that God will explain himself to him ... he knew that was wrong as he stated in Job 9:32

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

But then he could not stand it anymore and spoke within himself these words ..

Job 10:1 My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.
2 I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; show me wherefore thou contendest with me.

Eccles 6:10 That which hath been is named already, and it is known that it is man: neither may he contend with him that is mightier than he.

Is 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

And the answer that God gave Job back in chapters 38 and 39 was: I brought you to this world, and I can take you out. I am God and I do not have to explain myself to any man.

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

Shalom

rejoice44
Apr 9th 2011, 10:12 PM
I have been discussing this among friends and we have several different views about what the meaning behind the story is.

??????
anyone care to try and explain this book and the meaning.

To much is made of just a few verses, while ignoring the majority of the text. Was Job really the person that we seem to see him as? List the good things God says about him, and then list the bad things God says about him for a comparison.


Here is the question that was posed to me.

Why would God have to prove anything to Satan about one of his righteous people in the way he did it?

God didn't have to prove anything to Satan, it was for our learning and Job's salvation.

Phish
Apr 9th 2011, 10:13 PM
Good Stuff Servant

Servant89
Apr 9th 2011, 11:14 PM
Good Stuff Servant

Thank you and praised be our Lord God.

God is more interested in us trusting him no matter what circumstance. God wants us to actually believe that...

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Ps 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God:

Lk 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Job got the point later ...

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.


Shalom

Rullion Green
Apr 10th 2011, 08:21 AM
I'll just throw this out there. I have been slowly reading through the on-line version of this book. It is a very interesting read, but I'm only part way through it so have no conclusions. I agree with the main point of the book being a theodicy. The entire book is available here.
http://www.bookofjob.org/

There is also a link to a summary:
http://www.bookofjob.org/quick%20summary2.htm

I read the review Teddy, your right pretty much sounds like the same book. Good spot.

I do have huge reservations with one of the conclusions though, but i'm working through it personally at the moment in my own studies. These questions do have to be asked, but i think one of the conclusions is not supported enough by scripture to be stated authoritatively (just my opinion). I think you know what i'm talking about :)

What are your thoughts ?

spookytooth
Apr 10th 2011, 10:19 AM
I have been discussing this among friends and we have several different views about what the meaning behind the story is.

??????
anyone care to try and explain this book and the meaning.

Here is the question that was posed to me.

Why would God have to prove anything to Satan about one of his righteous people in the way he did it?

I need to study up on this and maybe get a few words from some here about this, because the topic will come up again and I would like to present a response with more depth next time.

My response was the basic.
satan thought without Gods protection and blessings Job would turn from God. God knew Job would not, so he allowed satan to bring heartache on Job. Although Job did ask why he never cursed God, and praised God throughout the ordeal. Job endured and was restored with more blessings in the end. Bad things do happen to the righteous and we can't explain this mystery of God with our human brain.

This is about all I had, which did not seem to satisfy

.....help

He doesn't, the lesson is to the reader. The lesson is; ' Don't think yourself superior to God , without Him you are nothing '.

Cliff H
Apr 10th 2011, 12:39 PM
I have asked myself this question:

What did Job's children do to deserve death ?

rejoice44
Apr 10th 2011, 12:54 PM
I have asked myself this question:

What did Job's children do to deserve death ?

Probably cursed God in their hearts. Job thought that was a possibility, for it was the reason he made a sacrifice for them. Job 1:5

Rullion Green
Apr 10th 2011, 01:35 PM
I have asked myself this question:

What did Job's children do to deserve death ?

This question could be asked Ad infinitum about things we see in our own lives and in the news today, this is the major issue in the book. Tough question to answer probably the hardest one out there.

EarlyCall
Apr 10th 2011, 01:35 PM
I have been discussing this among friends and we have several different views about what the meaning behind the story is.

??????
anyone care to try and explain this book and the meaning.

Here is the question that was posed to me.

Why would God have to prove anything to Satan about one of his righteous people in the way he did it?

I need to study up on this and maybe get a few words from some here about this, because the topic will come up again and I would like to present a response with more depth next time.

My response was the basic.
satan thought without Gods protection and blessings Job would turn from God. God knew Job would not, so he allowed satan to bring heartache on Job. Although Job did ask why he never cursed God, and praised God throughout the ordeal. Job endured and was restored with more blessings in the end. Bad things do happen to the righteous and we can't explain this mystery of God with our human brain.

This is about all I had, which did not seem to satisfy

.....help

If we start with three assumptions:

1) God knows the future
2) satan knows God knows the future
3) satan is intelligent beyond anything man can grasp (not beyond God, just beyond man and man's thinking they can guess how intelligent satan is)

then the logical conclusion that satan really thought that he could get Job to sin would also require that satan thought God either didn't know if Job would sin or that satan quite simply could not help himself, due to his nature and he took a sucker's bet.

In other words, working it out logically, it would be something along these lines:

1) God brings up Job to satan and speaks well of him
2) satan says, well, he'd sin if you didn't do this or that for him
3) God says, ok, have at him
4) satan thinks to himself, but God knows the future, so he knows how this will turn out. What's up? What's He got in mind? What's His plan? (if I can think of these questions does anyone think satan could not or would not?)
5) satan gives it a shot and comes up short, so he says to God, well, you are still protecting him.
6) God says, right, you have more leeway, go at him
7) satan thinks, well, God was right the first time, and yea, He knows the future, but whatever He has up His sleeve, well, I don't know, but, well, whatever, I'm going to try anyway

I wondered about this and came to the only logical conclusion I could think of (that would be my limit you see - what I could think of), and it seemed to me that satan had to know, based on the assumptions I listed above, that God would not lose this, therefore, due to the very nature of satan, he could not refuse to try, and let's not forget, win or lose, satan has no problem torturing a man of God.

I wonder if most people think that the moral of the story is that Job was faithful, did not sin and God rewarded him by restoring twice what he had originally. Also, note the difference between the children he had and lost and the children he ended up with!!

But that is not the moral of the story. It is not the story. In short, in the end God blessed Job most of all by speaking to him and revealing Himself to Job in a way that likely at that time no one else in all the world was privileged to know (we read about it now). But most of all, what Job learned was that God is God, He does as He pleases and he is not required to answer to anyone.

Now consider that message for us compared to the supposed message that if we are faithful God will reward us in this lifetime.

If we consider rather that God is God, He does as He pleases and He is not obligated to answer to anyone - why, how, what or anything else, then we begin to understand better, as Job finally did, just how great this God really is and how small we really are. How fantastic then is it that such a God would even consider us? It is a great help, or can be if we let it, in our keeping a proper perspective in life when we go through difficult times.

So, in the end, satan was merely being manipulated by God and it was for our benefit. Job had to pay a dear price for us, but then what people should understand is that God is more than willing and will sacrifice anyone of us for His glory and plan for mankind as a whole. And if in this someone thinks otherwise, they might ask why God would not do so when He was not only willing but did sacrifice His very own Son. Are any one of us better than the Son of God?

So this is what Job is about to me. It's one of my favorite books. Every time I read it, I learn something new it seems.

LankyLee
Apr 10th 2011, 02:17 PM
If we start with three assumptions:

1) God knows the future
2) satan knows God knows the future
3) satan is intelligent beyond anything man can grasp (not beyond God, just beyond man and man's thinking they can guess how intelligent satan is)

then the logical conclusion that satan really thought that he could get Job to sin would also require that satan thought God either didn't know if Job would sin or that satan quite simply could not help himself, due to his nature and he took a sucker's bet.

In other words, working it out logically, it would be something along these lines:

1) God brings up Job to satan and speaks well of him
2) satan says, well, he'd sin if you didn't do this or that for him
3) God says, ok, have at him
4) satan thinks to himself, but God knows the future, so he knows how this will turn out. What's up? What's He got in mind? What's His plan? (if I can think of these questions does anyone think satan could not or would not?)
5) satan gives it a shot and comes up short, so he says to God, well, you are still protecting him.
6) God says, right, you have more leeway, go at him
7) satan thinks, well, God was right the first time, and yea, He knows the future, but whatever He has up His sleeve, well, I don't know, but, well, whatever, I'm going to try anyway

I wondered about this and came to the only logical conclusion I could think of (that would be my limit you see - what I could think of), and it seemed to me that satan had to know, based on the assumptions I listed above, that God would not lose this, therefore, due to the very nature of satan, he could not refuse to try, and let's not forget, win or lose, satan has no problem torturing a man of God.

I wonder if most people think that the moral of the story is that Job was faithful, did not sin and God rewarded him by restoring twice what he had originally. Also, note the difference between the children he had and lost and the children he ended up with!!

But that is not the moral of the story. It is not the story. In short, in the end God blessed Job most of all by speaking to him and revealing Himself to Job in a way that likely at that time no one else in all the world was privileged to know (we read about it now). But most of all, what Job learned was that God is God, He does as He pleases and he is not required to answer to anyone.

Now consider that message for us compared to the supposed message that if we are faithful God will reward us in this lifetime.

If we consider rather that God is God, He does as He pleases and He is not obligated to answer to anyone - why, how, what or anything else, then we begin to understand better, as Job finally did, just how great this God really is and how small we really are. How fantastic then is it that such a God would even consider us? It is a great help, or can be if we let it, in our keeping a proper perspective in life when we go through difficult times.

So, in the end, satan was merely being manipulated by God and it was for our benefit. Job had to pay a dear price for us, but then what people should understand is that God is more than willing and will sacrifice anyone of us for His glory and plan for mankind as a whole. And if in this someone thinks otherwise, they might ask why God would not do so when He was not only willing but did sacrifice His very own Son. Are any one of us better than the Son of God?

So this is what Job is about to me. It's one of my favorite books. Every time I read it, I learn something new it seems.

Wow, I got chill bumps reading this, great explanation.
This is what I believe also but I could not have put it in words quite so well.

HisLeast
Apr 10th 2011, 02:48 PM
What did Job's children do to deserve death ?

Probably cursed God in their hearts. Job thought that was a possibility, for it was the reason he made a sacrifice for them. Job 1:5

I propose that it was exactly this kind of guessing that got Job's friends into trouble with God. They were fully convinced that the only reason life can get miserable is if you're sinning. Job is so upset (and rightfully so) with his friends that he calls out to God for a list of these supposed wrongs he's committed. In so doing, Job crosses the line and earns a rebuke from the Lord as well. Job 38:2 sums it up nicely: "Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?"

We don't know anything about Job's children, yet we're so certain they must have been bad kids because otherwise God wouldn't let them die. Just as Job's friends were certain that if Job really was a good guy, then God would never let anything bad happen to him.

God punished Job's friends severely. We should not play the same game.

rejoice44
Apr 10th 2011, 06:49 PM
[QUOTE=HisLeast;2656890]I propose that it was exactly this kind of guessing that got Job's friends into trouble with God.

It was Job who was doing the guessing. These were Job's thoughts. How can we understand the book if we do not pay attention to what is being said?

Can you explain exactly what the friends did wrong according to actual scripture in this book?


They were fully convinced that the only reason life can get miserable is if you're sinning.Sometimes men suffer because of God's wrath, sometimes men suffer because of God's correction, and sometimes men suffer so that God might be glorified. Why did Job suffer?


Job is so upset (and rightfully so) with his friends that he calls out to God for a list of these supposed wrongs he's committed.This is true with the exception of that in parenthesis.


In so doing, Job crosses the line and earns a rebuke from the Lord as well.What do you mean Job crosses the line? Can you supply the verses?



We don't know anything about Job's children, yet we're so certain they must have been bad kids because otherwise God wouldn't let them die.I am not so certain the kids were bad. It is just that the scripture suggests that.


Just as Job's friends were certain that if Job really was a good guy, then God would never let anything bad happen to him.We know some things happen for God's glory. (John 9:3) Job's three friends knew Job better than any one else, save God. Can you quote some verses from this book where Job's friends said something that was not true? I know of at least one verse, but could you cite some verses?


God punished Job's friends severely. We should not play the same game.I cannot find where the three friends were punished severely, could you quote the verses?

VerticalReality
Apr 10th 2011, 07:37 PM
He doesn't, the lesson is to the reader. The lesson is; ' Don't think yourself superior to God , without Him you are nothing '.

You believe God allowed Job to go through misery simply to show him that he isn't superior to God?

If I were to take my son out in the back yard and pummel him to a bloody pulp, would people just say, "Oh, well . . . he was just showing his son that he isn't the man of the house"? Why would we think God would do the same?

rejoice44
Apr 10th 2011, 07:59 PM
If I were to take my son out in the back yard and pummel him to a bloody pulp, would people just say, "Oh, well . . . he was just showing his son that he isn't the man of the house"? Why would we think God would do the same?

It doesn't say Job is a son, but that he is a servant, and the bible clearly makes that distinction. If you were to believe Job, then Job is a hired servant. Hired servants couldn't partake of the passover. When you consider the implications of this you might consider that Job could have no part of the saviour.

teddyv
Apr 11th 2011, 02:39 AM
I cannot find where the three friends were punished severely, could you quote the verses?

Job 42:7-9 (NIV)

Epilogue
7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the LORD told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer. They were not punished because they carried out the sacrifice to atone for not speaking the truth about God. Furthermore prayer by Job on their behalf was also required to turn the Lord's anger away.

rejoice44
Apr 11th 2011, 11:28 AM
Job 42:7-9 (NIV)
They were not punished because they carried out the sacrifice to atone for not speaking the truth about God. Furthermore prayer by Job on their behalf was also required to turn the Lord's anger away.

The point is they were not severely punished. It was Job that did all the suffering.

ProDeo
Apr 11th 2011, 01:25 PM
I don't think God's rhetorical questions were an indication that His allowing these things to come upon Job were for the purposes of showing His sovereignty if that is what you are asking.

The story of the Job holds many wisdoms, one of them indeed sovereignty as the last chapters are very Rom 9:20 stylish.

Rom 9:20 But who indeed are you – a mere human being – to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Isa 45:9; Jer 18:6

HisLeast
Apr 11th 2011, 02:04 PM
It was Job who was doing the guessing. These were Job's thoughts. How can we understand the book if we do not pay attention to what is being said?

Can you explain exactly what the friends did wrong according to actual scripture in this book?
It was Job's friends who did the guessing. Eliphaz starts it off in Job 4 & 5, immediately suggesting that the punishment is for sin. To which Job replies "teach me and I will be quiet; show me where I have been wrong" (Job6:24), and continues his claim of innocence in verses 28-30.

Bildad takes up where Eliphaz leaves off in Job 8 again linking suffering to justice (Job 8:3) along with assurances that if Job only plead earnestly with God for forgiveness, then everything will be restored (Job 8:5-7). Job asks Bildad how a man can prove his innocence before God (Job 9:2-3) and in verse 21 states his innocence again "although I am blameless, I have no concern for myself; I despise my own life".

In comes Zophar who does nothing less than wish for God to chastise Job even more for maintaining innocence (Job 10:4-6). In verses 14-16 he repeats Bildad's assertion that if Job only puts away this supposed sin, everything will be a-ok. At this point Job (chapter 11) simultaneously asserts his innocence while exposing his friend's as incompetent comforters.

Instead of learning their lesson, Job's friends start another round of speeches. Eliphaz starts off chapter 15 calling Job "crafty tongued" and condemned. The others join in as well. Job's chastisement goes unheard in chapter 16:2-5:
2 “I have heard many things like these; you are miserable comforters, all of you!
3 Will your long-winded speeches never end? What ails you that you keep on arguing?
4 I also could speak like you, if you were in my place; I could make fine speeches against you and shake my head at you.
5 But my mouth would encourage you; comfort from my lips would bring you relief."

In other words, "gee, thanks for the encouragement guys!". 11 chapters later, Job (ch 27) once again declares his innocence, yet thanks to his friends has now indicted God in the matter. The answer to your question about what the friends did wrong is found in Job 42:7 "I am angry with you and your two friends because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has". If we look back at what Job's friends were trying to teach, it was the ideas that (i) Job was only suffering because he had done something wrong and that (ii) if he only go to God about it, everything would be restored.


Sometimes men suffer because of God's wrath, sometimes men suffer because of God's correction, and sometimes men suffer so that God might be glorified. Why did Job suffer?
For no better reason than it suited God's purposes. But my original post wasn't about Job, was it? It was to show that guessing why Job's children died is playing the exact same game that Job's friends did. We see the same dynamic play out whenever calamity strikes: Haiti, Japan, and in hospital rooms where beloved children waste away from cancer.


What do you mean Job crosses the line? Can you supply the verses?
The entirety of Job 38 - 40.


I am not so certain the kids were bad. It is just that the scripture suggests that.
It only suggests that they feasted and that Job made purification offerings "just in case". It does not suggest that the kids were actually bad at any point.


We know some things happen for God's glory. (John 9:3) Job's three friends knew Job better than any one else, save God. Can you quote some verses from this book where Job's friends said something that was not true? I know of at least one verse, but could you cite some verses?
Sure. The entirety of Job 6 - 25, except where Job speaks. This is validated in chapter 42 where God addresses the friends directly.


I cannot find where the three friends were punished severely, could you quote the verses?
Job 42:8 - So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.”

With only a short amount of research (http://www.mwbeefcattle.com/Documents%5CBull%20cost.pdf) (PDF - Bull pricing considerations), purchasing a bull is thousands of dollars. Rams are a little bit less. Extrapolate that data to a culture that measured wealth by herd size and you're looking at a sacrifice that would be felt for decades. Not only is there immediate and significant loss of capital (the animals), but also reduced future potential by sacrificing the breeders (bull-to-cow ratio is between 1:50 and 1:100 on modern farms). In modern terms this would be like giving up a chunk of your net worth + reducing your annual salary for the next decade. If anything, I've understated just how severe the punishment was.

AndyBern
Apr 11th 2011, 02:19 PM
Having studied the book in depth (and am still continuing to study it), I find the verse that is key to understanding was just mentioned: "...you have not spoken of me what is right like my servant Job" (42:7). The whole book needs to be read and studied in light of this verse, and it will probably raise more difficult questions at first. It seemed that the friends were speaking right of God, and seemed Job was speaking wrong (i.e. God is unjust, etc).

rejoice44
Apr 11th 2011, 03:59 PM
Having studied the book in depth (and am still continuing to study it), I find the verse that is key to understanding was just mentioned: "...you have not spoken of me what is right like my servant Job" (42:7). The whole book needs to be read and studied in light of this verse, and it will probably raise more difficult questions at first. It seemed that the friends were speaking right of God, and seemed Job was speaking wrong (i.e. God is unjust, etc).

When did Job first speak right of God, wasn't it when he repented, and said you can even know the thoughts of the heart.

Rememer when Job said, "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live."

Yet in the forty second chapter Job's heart did reproach him. "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Listen to what God said to Job, "Will you condemn me that you may be righteous"? Isn't this a struggle between God's righteousness and Job's righteousness. Wasn't it when Job relinguished his righteousness for God's and said I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes that Job was saying that which was right?

VerticalReality
Apr 11th 2011, 04:36 PM
The story of the Job holds many wisdoms, one of them indeed sovereignty as the last chapters are very Rom 9:20 stylish.

Rom 9:20 But who indeed are you – a mere human being – to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Isa 45:9; Jer 18:6

I wasn't suggesting otherwise. Yes, the book of Job does contain many truths as it relates to God. I was merely suggesting that God illustrating His sovereignty through these rhetorical questions does not also suggest that this was His reasoning behind allowing the things that happened to Job.

rejoice44
Apr 11th 2011, 05:12 PM
It was Job's friends who did the guessing. Eliphaz starts it off in Job 4 & 5, immediately suggesting that the punishment is for sin. To which Job replies "teach me and I will be quiet; show me where I have been wrong" (Job6:24), and continues his claim of innocence in verses 28-30.

Can you pick out a single verse from chapter five or six and say Eliphaz was wrong?


Bildad takes up where Eliphaz leaves off in Job 8 again linking suffering to justice (Job 8:3) along with assurances that if Job only plead earnestly with God for forgiveness, then everything will be restored

Isn't that what happened in the forty second chapter?


(Job 8:5-7). Job asks Bildad how a man can prove his innocence before God (Job 9:2-3) and in verse 21 states his innocence again "although I am blameless, I have no concern for myself; I despise my own life".

Job continually said he was innocent and that God was unjust. I personally believe that God is just, and at that time Job was not innocent.


In comes Zophar who does nothing less than wish for God to chastise Job even more for maintaining innocence (Job 10:4-6).

Isn't that exactly what God did when he said to Job, "Shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct him. He that reproves God, let him answer it."

"Will you also disannul my judgment? Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?


In verses 14-16 he repeats Bildad's assertion that if Job only puts away this supposed sin, everything will be a-ok.

Here is where the fault lies with the three friends. Like Job, they did not understand that it was only God's righteousness that could save them. They all thought they could be righteous in and of themselves.


At this point Job (chapter 11) simultaneously asserts his innocence while exposing his friend's as incompetent comforters.

Remember that these three friends came from a long distance because of their concern for Job, and then when they saw his condition, sat down on the ground for seven days and seven nights in total silence. I would like to have friends like that. Another thing to ask yourself, where were Job's friends from his own village?

It wasn't until Job cursed his day and said he wanted to be free from his master (God), that Eliphaz spoke up, and listen to what the spirit had said to Eliphaz. "Shall mortal man be more just than God? Shall a man be more pure than his maker?" This is exactly what God said to Job when God said, "Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?"


Instead of learning their lesson, Job's friends start another round of speeches. Eliphaz starts off chapter 15 calling Job "crafty tongued" and condemned. The others join in as well. Job's chastisement goes unheard in chapter 16:2-5:
2 “I have heard many things like these; you are miserable comforters, all of you!
3 Will your long-winded speeches never end? What ails you that you keep on arguing?
4 I also could speak like you, if you were in my place; I could make fine speeches against you and shake my head at you.
5 But my mouth would encourage you; comfort from my lips would bring you relief."

Can you give one verse from the three friends that is not true, with the exception of 8:5?


In other words, "gee, thanks for the encouragement guys!". 11 chapters later, Job (ch 27) once again declares his innocence, yet thanks to his friends has now indicted God in the matter.

You are saying it was the three friends fault that Job condemned God? Are we not all responsible for our own actions? We could always say the Devil made me do it.


The answer to your question about what the friends did wrong is found in Job 42:7 "I am angry with you and your two friends because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has".

What is the truth they should have spoken about God? Notice it doesn't say about Job, it says about God.

They told Job to repent and he did that. What they didn't tell him was that he needed to put on the robe of God's righteousness. They were telling Job that he had to make his own robe whiter.


If we look back at what Job's friends were trying to teach, it was the ideas that (i) Job was only suffering because he had done something wrong and that (ii) if he only go to God about it, everything would be restored.

Isn't that exactly what happened. God restored everything after Job repented.


For no better reason than it suited God's purposes. But my original post wasn't about Job, was it? It was to show that guessing why Job's children died is playing the exact same game that Job's friends did.

Job was guessing that they had sinned, otherwise there would have been no need of a sin offering. Job agreed with every thing the three friends said with this one exception, and that was that he was innocent.

Job said to Bildad, "I know it is of a truth." (Job 9:2)

Job said to Zophar, "But I have understanding, as well as you: I am not inferior to you: yea, who knoweth not such things as these?

It was not that Job did not agree with what they were saying, but the problem was that they were saying it to him. Job said he was innocent.


It only suggests that they feasted and that Job made purification offerings "just in case". It does not suggest that the kids were actually bad at any point.

Cursing God in your heart is not bad?


Sure. The entirety of Job 6 - 25, except where Job speaks. This is validated in chapter 42 where God addresses the friends directly.

This saves actually having to examine what the Bible says.



Job 42:8 - So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.”

With only a short amount of research (http://www.mwbeefcattle.com/Documents%5CBull%20cost.pdf) (PDF - Bull pricing considerations), purchasing a bull is thousands of dollars. Rams are a little bit less. Extrapolate that data to a culture that measured wealth by herd size and you're looking at a sacrifice that would be felt for decades. Not only is there immediate and significant loss of capital (the animals), but also reduced future potential by sacrificing the breeders (bull-to-cow ratio is between 1:50 and 1:100 on modern farms). In modern terms this would be like giving up a chunk of your net worth + reducing your annual salary for the next decade. If anything, I've understated just how severe the punishment was.

Well then Job suffered severe punishment on a regular basis, for the bible says, Job 1:5---and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, it may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

LankyLee
Apr 12th 2011, 01:20 AM
Can you pick out a single verse from chapter five or six and say Eliphaz was wrong?



Isn't that what happened in the forty second chapter?



Job continually said he was innocent and that God was unjust. I personally believe that God is just, and at that time Job was not innocent.



Isn't that exactly what God did when he said to Job, "Shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct him. He that reproves God, let him answer it."

"Will you also disannul my judgment? Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?



Here is where the fault lies with the three friends. Like Job, they did not understand that it was only God's righteousness that could save them. They all thought they could be righteous in and of themselves.



Remember that these three friends came from a long distance because of their concern for Job, and then when they saw his condition, sat down on the ground for seven days and seven nights in total silence. I would like to have friends like that. Another thing to ask yourself, where were Job's friends from his own village?

It wasn't until Job cursed his day and said he wanted to be free from his master (God), that Eliphaz spoke up, and listen to what the spirit had said to Eliphaz. "Shall mortal man be more just than God? Shall a man be more pure than his maker?" This is exactly what God said to Job when God said, "Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?"



Can you give one verse from the three friends that is not true, with the exception of 8:5?



You are saying it was the three friends fault that Job condemned God? Are we not all responsible for our own actions? We could always say the Devil made me do it.



What is the truth they should have spoken about God? Notice it doesn't say about Job, it says about God.

They told Job to repent and he did that. What they didn't tell him was that he needed to put on the robe of God's righteousness. They were telling Job that he had to make his own robe whiter.



Isn't that exactly what happened. God restored everything after Job repented.



Job was guessing that they had sinned, otherwise there would have been no need of a sin offering. Job agreed with every thing the three friends said with this one exception, and that was that he was innocent.

Job said to Bildad, "I know it is of a truth." (Job 9:2)

Job said to Zophar, "But I have understanding, as well as you: I am not inferior to you: yea, who knoweth not such things as these?

It was not that Job did not agree with what they were saying, but the problem was that they were saying it to him. Job said he was innocent.



Cursing God in your heart is not bad?



This saves actually having to examine what the Bible says.




Well then Job suffered severe punishment on a regular basis, for the bible says, Job 1:5---and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, it may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

where did Job say God was unjust????

ProDeo
Apr 12th 2011, 09:34 AM
Sometimes men suffer because of God's wrath, sometimes men suffer because of God's correction, and sometimes men suffer so that God might be glorified. Why did Job suffer?


For no better reason than it suited God's purposes. But my original post wasn't about Job, was it? It was to show that guessing why Job's children died is playing the exact same game that Job's friends did. We see the same dynamic play out whenever calamity strikes: Haiti, Japan, and in hospital rooms where beloved children waste away from cancer.

If I had to put it in one word it would be: BECAUSE.

It's what God is implying when He speaks to Job from the storm.

It's also the good version of agnosticism accepting the sovereignty of God as the basis of faith. I thought you would like the agnostic word play :)

Servant89
Apr 12th 2011, 10:30 AM
Maybe the book of Job is to show us why bad things happen to "good" people.

Shalom

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 11:11 AM
where did Job say God was unjust????

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof: if not where, and who is he?

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 11:18 AM
If I had to put it in one word it would be: BECAUSE.

It's what God is implying when He speaks to Job from the storm.

It's also the good version of agnosticism accepting the sovereignty of God as the basis of faith. I thought you would like the agnostic word play :)

You have lost me here a bit. I am slow to perceive things.

While we can only guess about his children, the book is clear on Job.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 11:21 AM
Maybe the book of Job is to show us why bad things happen to "good" people.

Shalom

Or it is to show that there is none righteous save God, and what correction God will use to save one soul. The story is about the epic battle between God and Satan to possess a soul.

VerticalReality
Apr 12th 2011, 12:21 PM
Or it is to show that there is none righteous save God, and what correction God will use to save one soul. The story is about the epic battle between God and Satan to possess a soul.

Job isn't really about correction, though, is it? I don't think God's allowing this to happen to Job was His chastisement. Perhaps God's reason for allowing it was to show mankind throughout the centuries that just because we are going through something difficult does not mean He's the one causing it. Everybody in the book of Job kept pointing the finger at God as the author of Job's affliction. However, it wasn't God who was afflicting Job; it was the devil who was afflicting him.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 01:04 PM
Job isn't really about correction, though, is it? I don't think God's allowing this to happen to Job was His chastisement. Perhaps God's reason for allowing it was to show mankind throughout the centuries that just because we are going through something difficult does not mean He's the one causing it. Everybody in the book of Job kept pointing the finger at God as the author of Job's affliction. However, it wasn't God who was afflicting Job; it was the devil who was afflicting him.

Why do you believe everyone was wrong? God was in charge, for it was God that removed the hedge and set the parameters for Satan to operate in. God knew exactly what Satan was going to do and yet he gave his permission.

mattlad22
Apr 12th 2011, 01:21 PM
Why do you believe everyone was wrong? God was in charge, for it was God that removed the hedge and set the parameters for Satan to operate in. God knew exactly what Satan was going to do and yet he gave his permission.

Then i would bring you over to what Jesus told Peter, it is the exact same.

The devil asked to sift you as wheat, but i have prayed for thee, that thou shall come back to me and when you do, strentghen thy brethren.

What did happen to Peter? Peter denied Jesus 3 times as was said, he was indeed sifted as wheat by satan, and was struck in his heart and went out weeping. Peter repented and went forth to the Lord as we witness through God as His will was done.

Peter was indeed allowed to be sifted as wheat by satan, and he repented, and followed the Lord.
It is not for our glory but for His glory.

Fenris
Apr 12th 2011, 01:30 PM
I think the book of Job is all about how a finite man cannot comprehend an infinite God.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 01:39 PM
Then i would bring you over to what Jesus told Peter, it is the exact same.

The devil asked to sift you as wheat, but i have prayed for thee, that thou shall come back to me and when you do, strentghen thy brethren.

What did happen to Peter? Peter denied Jesus 3 times as was said, he was indeed sifted as wheat by satan, and was struck in his heart and went out weeping. Peter repented and went forth to the Lord as we witness through God as His will was done.

Peter was indeed allowed to be sifted as wheat by satan, and he repented, and followed the Lord.
It is not for our glory but for His glory.

True but Peter was not yet converted.

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Job's sins had not been forgiven. Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? Job would have died in his sins if he had not repented.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Though Jesus knew Peter would be converted, that does not take away from Peter the free will to convert, or not convert.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 01:41 PM
I think the book of Job is all about how a finite man cannot comprehend an infinite God.

Or how a blind man cannot see.

Fenris
Apr 12th 2011, 01:42 PM
Or how a blind man cannot see.

Always comes down to that, doesn't it....?

mattlad22
Apr 12th 2011, 01:44 PM
True but Peter was not yet converted.

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Job's sins had not been forgiven. Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? Job would have died in his sins if he had not repented.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Though Jesus knew Peter would be converted, that does not take away from Peter the free will to convert, or not convert.

I agee, but it is the same as jobs situation you described.
Peter had the choice to repent, if he had not he would have died in his sins.
Job was the same, if he had not repented, he would have died in his sins.

We know what happened to both of these men.
Why would they repent? because they had faith in God, they believe in Him.

AndyBern
Apr 12th 2011, 02:17 PM
I think the book of Job is all about how a finite man cannot comprehend an infinite God.

That is definitely a main theme, if not the main theme.

The point of Job 42:7 is not that the friends spoke wrong of Job (which is what we would expect), but that they spoke wrong of God. Plus, God says Job spoke right of Himself (... again, what we would not expect).

If Job was in the wrong, why didn't God tell him to offer a sacrifice for his sin, as He did to the three friends?

RabbiKnife
Apr 12th 2011, 02:22 PM
The theme of Job is "God is God and I am not."

A lesson that, sadly, many Christians never seem to assimilate.

VerticalReality
Apr 12th 2011, 02:25 PM
Why do you believe everyone was wrong? God was in charge, for it was God that removed the hedge and set the parameters for Satan to operate in. God knew exactly what Satan was going to do and yet he gave his permission.

I understand what you're saying. Yet, none of that equals God bringing these things against Job. When I review the whole of God's word, I see a great deal of things that are required of the believer in order to live in victory over the attack of our enemy. The whole of God's word reveals that God's people have a great deal of say-so in what the devil is allowed to get away with. I think Christians today make a HUGE mistake by reading over portions of one book in the bible and building these doctrines out of it. They make Satan into this powerful being that God may sometimes allow to come into our life for no apparent reason in order to totally beat the living snot right out of us. To me, this sort of view is totally denying the whole of God's word. I see God throughout the whole of His word going to great lengths to instruct us how we can live above the power of the devil. Yet, Christians today build these doctrines from the book of Job giving Satan all this authority over the them. I do not believe this should be the case at all.

I'm saying they were wrong because they were. Job's friends were accusing Job of being sinful and God was chastising him because of it. God reveals that their charges against Job were not correct. Additionally, Job wailed and moaned the entire book about how God was taking this and that from him; however, it wasn't God who took it. Satan took it. People then want to say, "Well, God allowed him to take it, so He is ultimately responsible!" To me, that is baloney. Just because God allows a test does not mean we have to submit to the one administering it. Satan was the administrator of a test God allowed. Jesus is another example. The Holy Spirit led Jesus into the wildnerness to be tested of the devil. God allowed the test, but He was not the administrator of that test. Jesus chose not to submit to the administrator of the test. He simply refused. Therefore, Satan had no right to Jesus. All he could do was leave.

The whole of God's word indicates to us that we do not have to just take whatever the administrator of the test throws our way. I see God's people suffering through all sorts of senseless things today all the while claiming it to be God bringing something against them for His glory. No, if Jesus were right there with them and they asked Him for healing they would walk away free of their affliction. This serves as enough indication to me that God does not desire for His children to submit to the oppression of the devil. He is not glorified by someone getting cancer and dying a horrible death of pain and misery. That stuff grieves the Lord, which is all a part of the reason why Jesus came to destroy it.

HisLeast
Apr 12th 2011, 02:29 PM
That is definitely a main theme, if not the main theme.

The point of Job 42:7 is not that the friends spoke wrong of Job (which is what we would expect), but that they spoke wrong of God. Plus, God says Job spoke right of Himself (... again, what we would not expect).

If Job was in the wrong, why didn't God tell him to offer a sacrifice for his sin, as He did to the three friends?

I believe the degree to which Job was wrong was entirely different than his friends. Where Job erred was to question God, and to demand a reason. Where the friends erred was to actively promote an idea about God and reality that was untrue, and furthermore, harmfull. Hence, Job gets a lecture while his friends get a lecture and a price to pay.

RabbiKnife
Apr 12th 2011, 02:30 PM
I can buy that...

I think a lot of the church is guilty of the sin of Job's friends. We are very quick to say "God says" when it is really our opinion.

That, in my not so humble opinion, is the sin of using God's name in vain. I think a lot of us have a lot for which to answer on that regard.

Phish
Apr 12th 2011, 02:39 PM
I can buy that...

I think a lot of the church is guilty of the sin of Job's friends. We are very quick to say "God says" when it is really our opinion.

That, in my not so humble opinion, is the sin of using God's name in vain. I think a lot of us have a lot for which to answer on that regard.

I second this, great post

ProDeo
Apr 12th 2011, 02:59 PM
While we can only guess about his children, the book is clear on Job.

Yes.

That's why sometimes "because" is good as an answer. Or as God told Paul, "my grace is enough". Basically the same.

Surely Job will have tortured his mind with the same question assuming he wasn't aware of the origin of his sufferings as stipulated in the first chapter.

Fenris
Apr 12th 2011, 03:10 PM
That is definitely a main theme, if not the main theme.

The point of Job 42:7 is not that the friends spoke wrong of Job (which is what we would expect), but that they spoke wrong of God. Plus, God says Job spoke right of Himself (... again, what we would not expect).

If Job was in the wrong, why didn't God tell him to offer a sacrifice for his sin, as He did to the three friends?

Plus all the rhetorical questions in chapter 38 and 39. "you can't understand any of this, how can you possibly understand me?"

Fenris
Apr 12th 2011, 03:14 PM
Where Job erred was to question God, and to demand a reason.
I don't think that's an error. The whole point of the book is that we can't understand God, not that we shouldn't question Him. Heck, the name "Israel" means "struggles with God".

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 03:42 PM
I agee, but it is the same as jobs situation you described.
Peter had the choice to repent, if he had not he would have died in his sins.
Job was the same, if he had not repented, he would have died in his sins.

We know what happened to both of these men.
Why would they repent? because they had faith in God, they believe in Him.

How much faith did Peter have when he denied Christ? Didn't the faith come after he saw the resurrected Christ? Likewise Job's faith came after he saw God. Job 42:5

RabbiKnife
Apr 12th 2011, 03:44 PM
Faith is not about seeing.

Faith is about believing even when you don't see.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 04:04 PM
I understand what you're saying. Yet, none of that equals God bringing these things against Job.

If you are going to understand this book you have to throw away opinions and examine this text. The answer lies with the words. It is really self explanatory if you really hear what is being said.

[QUOTE]I'm saying they were wrong because they were. Job's friends were accusing Job of being sinful and God was chastising him because of it. God reveals that their charges against Job were not correct.

You did not read that from any verse that is in this book. If you feel you did read it from this book, please present the verse.


Just because God allows a test does not mean we have to submit to the one administering it. Satan was the administrator of a test God allowed.

This book does not discuss whether Job had to submit to the test, it was not even a consideration.

If you want answers why not look at the tests themselves?


The whole of God's word indicates to us that we do not have to just take whatever the administrator of the test throws our way. I see God's people suffering through all sorts of senseless things today all the while claiming it to be God bringing something against them for His glory. No, if Jesus were right there with them and they asked Him for healing they would walk away free of their affliction. This serves as enough indication to me that God does not desire for His children to submit to the oppression of the devil. He is not glorified by someone getting cancer and dying a horrible death of pain and misery. That stuff grieves the Lord, which is all a part of the reason why Jesus came to destroy it.

Pertaining to the book of Job, Job didn't have a choice as to whether he would submit to the test.

HisLeast
Apr 12th 2011, 04:07 PM
I don't think that's an error. The whole point of the book is that we can't understand God, not that we shouldn't question Him. Heck, the name "Israel" means "struggles with God".

Well, there's questioning and then there's questioning. Take Moses and Abraham for example.
Moses: You don't want the rest of the world to think You couldn't deliver Your people, do You?
Abraham: Yes Lord, Sodom is filthy, but suppose there are 100 righteous people down there....

Now compare that to Job:
Job: "Why do you hurt me without cause?" (Job 9:17)

Am I right in seeing a distinction between the kinds of questioning undertaken by Moses and Abraham vs that done by Job?

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 04:12 PM
[QUOTE=HisLeast;2658114]I believe the degree to which Job was wrong was entirely different than his friends. Where Job erred was to question God, and to demand a reason.

If Job had not questioned God he would never have been reborn. The fact that he hung in there that long is the reason you hear about "the patience of Job". He sure did go wrong when he condemned God.


Where the friends erred was to actively promote an idea about God and reality that was untrue, and furthermore, harmfull. Hence, Job gets a lecture while his friends get a lecture and a price to pay.

What idea was that, and what verse is it found in?

RabbiKnife
Apr 12th 2011, 04:14 PM
It isn't a verse. It's the theme of much of the last 2/3rd of the book.

HisLeast
Apr 12th 2011, 04:15 PM
If Job had not questioned God he would never have been reborn. The fact that he hung in there that long is the reason you hear about "the patience of Job". He sure did go wrong when he condemned God.
You can not know that for sure. For all we know Job would have received the same blessings if he had just waited it out and his friends never showed up.


What idea was that, and what verse is it found in?
That God's motives can be understood, and that those motives produce a reality whereby bad things only happen to bad people and good things happen as soon as you right yourself with God. It is found over and over and over again throughout the book. There is hardly a sequence where the friends don't state that explicitly.

Seriously, you want to defend Job's friends, and by extension justify them in making assumptions about Job's calamity? Have you pondered the philosophical ramifications of this? In a world where we can justifiably and authoritatively declare that sin is the sole reason for calamity, then Christianity loses all credibility when it comes to bringing comfort to the afflicted. The reason is that the afflicted are being punished in a justified fashion, and to comfort them would be in direct disregard for God's justice. Christians would be aiding and abetting criminals by clothing the naked, feeding the poor, and caring for the widow. Christianity would be nothing more than a fair-weather-friendship.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 04:17 PM
Yes.

That's why sometimes "because" is good as an answer. Or as God told Paul, "my grace is enough". Basically the same.

Surely Job will have tortured his mind with the same question assuming he wasn't aware of the origin of his sufferings as stipulated in the first chapter.

There was a cause, and it was that Job was on his way to the pit. Job 33:17-18 The epic battle for a man's soul.

Fenris
Apr 12th 2011, 04:18 PM
Am I right in seeing a distinction between the kinds of questioning undertaken by Moses and Abraham vs that done by Job?
God doesn't rebuke Job for asking the question. He simply says that the answer is beyond Job's comprehension. It's a good thing that Job asked the question; it gave us the book of Job, after all. He doesn't ask, the lessons from the book go unlearned.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 04:21 PM
It isn't a verse. It's the theme of much of the last 2/3rd of the book.

When you start making a theme it becomes an opinion. The truth lies in the verses. I have yet to hear a verse from Job quoted.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 04:24 PM
You can not know that for sure. For all we know Job would have received the same blessings if he had just waited it out and his friends never showed up.

I do know it for sure, it is in the volume of the book.



That God's motives can be understood, and that those motives produce a reality whereby bad things only happen to bad people and good things happen as soon as you right yourself with God. It is found over and over and over again throughout the book. There is hardly a sequence where the friends don't state that explicitly.

Please cite a single verse.

Fenris
Apr 12th 2011, 04:26 PM
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto Me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast the understanding.
5 Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened?

etc etc etc

God is saying "You can't even understand My creation, how can you understand Me?"

Job's response?

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said:
4 Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer Thee? I lay my hand upon my mouth.

HisLeast
Apr 12th 2011, 04:26 PM
When you start making a theme it becomes an opinion. The truth lies in the verses. I have yet to hear a verse from Job quoted.
"Verses" are a contrivance. The story of Job wasn't written with verse and chapter markers. Never-the-less, those verses have been specified for you in my second post to the thread. The fact that one must read more than one, and look at them in the context of the book as a whole, does not mean citations haven't been provided for you.

HisLeast
Apr 12th 2011, 04:27 PM
I do know it for sure, it is in the volume of the book.
No, it isn't.


Please cite a single verse.
Again?

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 04:28 PM
Seriously, you want to defend Job's friends, and by extension justify them in making assumptions about Job's calamity? Have you pondered the philosophical ramifications of this? In a world where we can justifiably and authoritatively declare that sin is the sole reason for calamity, then Christianity loses all credibility when it comes to bringing comfort to the afflicted. The reason is that the afflicted are being punished in a justified fashion, and to comfort them would be in direct disregard for God's justice. Christians would be aiding and abetting criminals by clothing the naked, feeding the poor, and caring for the widow. Christianity would be nothing more than a fair-weather-friendship.

How can you discuss a book when you will not single out one single verse?

HisLeast
Apr 12th 2011, 04:31 PM
How can you discuss a book when you will not single out one single verse?
Because the entire books essence isn't encapsulated in "one verse". Furthermore, all the references one needs to draw the same conclusion I have were provided in an earlier post. If I simply MUST do this again, then ok... here goes.


Job 4 & 5 (in their entirety)
Job 8 (in its entirety)
Job 8:5-7 (very specifically)
Job 10:4-6
Job 10:14-16

Job 42:8

RabbiKnife
Apr 12th 2011, 04:32 PM
When you start making a theme it becomes an opinion. The truth lies in the verses. I have yet to hear a verse from Job quoted.

When you start taking verses out of their context, it becomes a FrankenOpinion.

Read it.

Gazillions of "Christians" quote Job 22:28 out of context and say "You will declare and decree a thing and it will come to pass."

But look at what God says about Eliphaz in Job 42:7-8...He calls Eliphaz a liar, and his words "folly."

A verse out of context is useless.

VerticalReality
Apr 12th 2011, 04:32 PM
If you are going to understand this book you have to throw away opinions and examine this text. The answer lies with the words. It is really self explanatory if you really hear what is being said.

My post had nothing to do with just opinion. In fact, my post had to do with examining the entirety of God's word rather than just single verses here and there of one book in the Bible. What you are suggesting I do is exactly what a good portion of believers today do and in the process build doctrines that are not congruent with the whole of God's word.


You did not read that from any verse that is in this book. If you feel you did read it from this book, please present the verse.

Job 42:7
And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.

So, what was their message to Job? What did they speak that was incorrect?


This book does not discuss whether Job had to submit to the test, it was not even a consideration.

Why isn't it a consideration when considering the whole of God's word? See, that is exactly the problem. Christians today want to take small passages here and there of one book in the Bible and then build doctrines out of it. That is not the way it is supposed to be done. We should be looking at the whole of God's word.


Pertaining to the book of Job, Job didn't have a choice as to whether he would submit to the test.

Okay, so now that some think Job didn't have a choice should we now build a doctrine for Christians today suggesting the same thing? Are there some things that the devil is going to bring our way that we just don't have any other choice but to accept? Is this the way we should build our doctrine, or should we instead look at the whole of God's word?

Should we not consider the fact that Job didn't have any knowledge whatsoever of the devil bringing these attacks against him? Should we not also consider scriptures that suggest God's people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge? Should we deny the fact that the whole of God's word is basically a user's manual on how to walk in life abundantly as opposed to death and destruction?

Rullion Green
Apr 12th 2011, 04:33 PM
The trouble trying to explain the message of the book is that there are many realities on display in the book, i dont think anyone is wrong just perhaps highlighting another theme rather than the one the next person is highlighting. I personally think psalm 42 is a good parralel to the book of Job and psalm 42:5 in particular could be a sound bite.

Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior. and my God.

I think this could be the message Job is trying to tell us. Though we are downcast and don't know why troubles have befallen us, we must trust in God. For He is Good.

HisLeast
Apr 12th 2011, 04:38 PM
The trouble trying to explain the message of the book is that there are many realities on display in the book, i dont think anyone is wrong just perhaps highlighting another theme rather than the one the next person is highlighting. I personally think psalm 42 is a good parralel to the book of Job and psalm 42:5 in particular could be a sound bite.

Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior. and my God.

I think this could be the message Job is trying to tell us. Though we are downcast and don't know why troubles have befallen us, we must trust in God. For He is Good.

Except that too often it is perverted to "if trouble befalls you, you deserve it". God has nothing to do with it, except when invoked as the grand cosmic boogeyman.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 04:43 PM
Job 38:1 [I]Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Fenris if you believed in the New Testament you would be better able to see the truth of this book.

Paul had all the answers for this book.

Job had a zeal for God but it was without knowledge. I blieve you would agree with that.

God said, Who is this that darkeneth counsell by words withou knowledge.

Paul said that about Israel. Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

God said, Will you condemn me that you might be righteous.

Paul said, Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Paul said in verse 10:1 "That his hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 04:46 PM
"Verses" are a contrivance. The story of Job wasn't written with verse and chapter markers. Never-the-less, those verses have been specified for you in my second post to the thread. The fact that one must read more than one, and look at them in the context of the book as a whole, does not mean citations haven't been provided for you.

How about if you present a whole paragraph. You cannot say the whole book says it, that merely becomes your opinion.

Fenris
Apr 12th 2011, 04:54 PM
Fenris if you believed in the New Testament you would be better able to see the truth of this book.

Actually, I do see the truth about this book. :)

HisLeast
Apr 12th 2011, 04:58 PM
How about if you present a whole paragraph. You cannot say the whole book says it, that merely becomes your opinion.

This will be the third time, but ok.

Job 4 & 5 (in their entirety)
Job 8 (in its entirety)
Job 8:5-7 (very specifically)
Job 10:4-6
Job 10:14-16

Job 42:8

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 04:58 PM
Job 42:7
And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.

So, what was their message to Job? What did they speak that was incorrect?

You have misquoted the verse and it is essential. They are two opposites, what is right is different from what is incorrect

Also it wasn't what they said, but what they didn't say.

I can say there is no God, and that is incorrect.

I can be a witness for Christ, and that would be saying what is right. I can also keep my mouth shut, and then I would not have said that which is right.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 05:00 PM
When you start taking verses out of their context, it becomes a FrankenOpinion.

Read it.

Gazillions of "Christians" quote Job 22:28 out of context and say "You will declare and decree a thing and it will come to pass."

But look at what God says about Eliphaz in Job 42:7-8...He calls Eliphaz a liar, and his words "folly."

A verse out of context is useless.

What verse did I take out of context?

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 05:03 PM
My post had nothing to do with just opinion. In fact, my post had to do with examining the entirety of God's word rather than just single verses here and there of one book in the Bible. What you are suggesting I do is exactly what a good portion of believers today do and in the process build doctrines that are not congruent with the whole of God's word.



Job 42:7
And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.

So, what was their message to Job? What did they speak that was incorrect?



Why isn't it a consideration when considering the whole of God's word? See, that is exactly the problem. Christians today want to take small passages here and there of one book in the Bible and then build doctrines out of it. That is not the way it is supposed to be done. We should be looking at the whole of God's word.



Okay, so now that some think Job didn't have a choice should we now build a doctrine for Christians today suggesting the same thing? Are there some things that the devil is going to bring our way that we just don't have any other choice but to accept? Is this the way we should build our doctrine, or should we instead look at the whole of God's word?

Should we not consider the fact that Job didn't have any knowledge whatsoever of the devil bringing these attacks against him? Should we not also consider scriptures that suggest God's people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge? Should we deny the fact that the whole of God's word is basically a user's manual on how to walk in life abundantly as opposed to death and destruction?

If I am taking something out of context, please present it.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 05:08 PM
The trouble trying to explain the message of the book is that there are many realities on display in the book, i dont think anyone is wrong just perhaps highlighting another theme rather than the one the next person is highlighting. I personally think psalm 42 is a good parralel to the book of Job and psalm 42:5 in particular could be a sound bite.

Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior. and my God.

I think this could be the message Job is trying to tell us. Though we are downcast and don't know why troubles have befallen us, we must trust in God. For He is Good.

If you want to parallel another book with Job, consider Lamentations.

Chapter four says that the daughter of Edom dwells in the land of Uz, and then consider that Job was the greatest man in the land of Uz.

And then read the third chapter of Lamentations and consider that ever one of the first eighteen verses, has a parallel verse in Job.

VerticalReality
Apr 12th 2011, 05:09 PM
You have misquoted the verse and it is essential. They are two opposites, what is right is different from what is incorrect

Also it wasn't what they said, but what they didn't say.

I can say there is no God, and that is incorrect.

I can be a witness for Christ, and that would be saying what is right. I can also keep my mouth shut, and then I would not have said that which is right.

Are you serious? That is so far-reaching it's really not worth debating further.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 05:10 PM
Actually, I do see the truth about this book. :)

You will get no argument from me.

Fenris
Apr 12th 2011, 05:27 PM
You will get no argument from me.

Really? Wow, this is a first! :lol:

mattlad22
Apr 12th 2011, 05:48 PM
How much faith did Peter have when he denied Christ? Didn't the faith come after he saw the resurrected Christ? Likewise Job's faith came after he saw God. Job 42:5

Peter clearly thought he had alot.
He told Jesus he would follow him anywhere didnt he, right before that, but then yet when he was accused of being with Him, what did Peter do?

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 06:21 PM
This will be the third time, but ok.

Job 4 & 5 (in their entirety)
Job 8 (in its entirety)
Job 8:5-7 (very specifically)
Job 10:4-6
Job 10:14-16

Job 42:8

I have to apologize to you. You did quote some verses and I just skipped over them with out actually seeing them.

In post 41 I made the disclaimer that there was one verse that was wrong that the friends stated. In post 51 I quoted the verse, but you used that in verse in post 47. We know that Job made an offering for his sons before-time that is a given. I claim this verse as the exception stated in post 41.

You are saying all of chapter four. Well the first thing Eliphaz said was "Behold, thou hast instructed many, and thou hast strengthened the weak hands. (Job 4:3) You are surly not saying this was wrong, and this is the reason I asked for specfic verses.

In chapter 5 in verse 8 & 9 Eliphaz says, "I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause: Which doeth great things and unsearchable: marvellous thing without number." Don't see anything wrong with that.

In chapter 8 verse Bildad says, "Does God pervert judgment? or does the Almighty pervert justice? Don't see anything wrong with that. You see the problem with saying the whole chapter. There are many more verses in those chapters that you would agree with, and the ones you don't agree with you need to be specfic about.

Job 8:5 is the one verse that they spoke wrongly on, for we know that Job did make supplication for his children, and this is the verse I was referring to in post 41 which I posted below.



HisLeast. Just as Job's friends were certain that if Job really was a good guy, then God would never let anything bad happen to him.We know some things happen for God's glory. (John 9:3) Job's three friends knew Job better than any one else, save God. Can you quote some verses from this book where Job's friends said something that was not true? I know of at least one verse, but could you cite some verses? Job 8:6-7 Job was not pure and upright, he was at the beginning, but not at this point. When God spoke to Job he did not call him pure and upright, rather he chastized him. As for verse 7 that became true.

Job 10:4-6 and Job 10:14-16 is Job speaking, so I don't understand why you presented that.

My apologies again, for in my haste I skipped over some of your words.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 06:28 PM
Peter clearly thought he had alot.
He told Jesus he would follow him anywhere didnt he, right before that, but then yet when he was accused of being with Him, what did Peter do?

Yes, how many who think they are saved are going to deny Christ when the chips are down.

mattlad22
Apr 12th 2011, 06:30 PM
Yes, how many who think they are saved are going to deny Christ when the chips are down.

No idea, its not something we can know, however on that for those who dont, what is asked of them? To try to gain back thier brethren, which is the same way you try to sow into those who do not know God.
But for one the foundation is already laid, for the other the first step must be acquired.

HisLeast
Apr 12th 2011, 06:39 PM
I have to apologize to you. You did quote some verses and I just skipped over them with out actually seeing them.

In post 41 I made the disclaimer that there was one verse that was wrong that the friends stated. In post 51 I quoted the verse, but you used that in verse in post 47. We know that Job made an offering for his sons before-time that is a given. I claim this verse as the exception stated in post 41.

You are saying all of chapter four. Well the first thing Eliphaz said was "Behold, thou hast instructed many, and thou hast strengthened the weak hands. (Job 4:3) You are surly not saying this was wrong, and this is the reason I asked for specfic verses.

In chapter 5 in verse 8 & 9 Eliphaz says, "I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause: Which doeth great things and unsearchable: marvellous thing without number." Don't see anything wrong with that.

In chapter 8 verse Bildad says, "Does God pervert judgment? or does the Almighty pervert justice? Don't see anything wrong with that. You see the problem with saying the whole chapter. There are many more verses in those chapters that you would agree with, and the ones you don't agree with you need to be specfic about.

Job 8:5 is the one verse that they spoke wrongly on, for we know that Job did make supplication for his children, and this is the verse I was referring to in post 41 which I posted below.
Did you notice that God didn't say "Eliphaz, you were wrong in verses XYZ, and Bildad your mistake came in verses ABC". No. God just said "you were wrong about what you said about me". This is why you can't just read job as a collection of stand-alone verses. The one idea common to all Job's friends is that God only brings calamity to those who've been bad. Furthermore, that all calamity will simply vanish once we're back in God's good graces. Its the defining message of each of Job's "friends", and the one theme that binds them all together. This is why God says "you were wrong" and not "you were wrong here and right there".


Job 10:4-6 and Job 10:14-16 is Job speaking, so I don't understand why you presented that.
Job is speaking about what his friends are telling him. It is Job's testimony to his friends' words, therefore its entirely relevant to my point.

But lets get real for a second here. Are you defending the right of Job's friends (and by extension, modern Christians) to declare themselves arbiters of God's motivation? Are you saying that Christians are far sighted enough to perceive the link between calamity and sin? I can't see how Christians can both comfort the afflicted AND simultaneously assume the affliction is the righteous judgment for hypothesized sin.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 07:12 PM
Job is speaking about what his friends are telling him. It is Job's testimony to his friends' words, therefore its entirely relevant to my point.

Job is speaking what is in his heart to God. Job is telling his friends what he would say to God, but he is directing all his questions to God. Job is accusing God of oppression and shinning on the wicked. He says none can deliver out of your hand.


But lets get real for a second here. Are you defending the right of Job's friends (and by extension, modern Christians) to declare themselves arbiters of God's motivation? Are you saying that Christians are far sighted enough to perceive the link between calamity and sin? I can't see how Christians can both comfort the afflicted AND simultaneously assume the affliction is the righteous judgment for hypothesized sin.I am not into philosophical debate. I am a simple person who likes to study the Word, and glean from it. Job's friends were wrong when they said Job had to be more pure, because he could never be pure enough. What they needed to tell him was that he had to shed his own righteousness and put on God's.

RabbiKnife
Apr 12th 2011, 07:18 PM
Why would they say that? Granted, Job's friends are not significantly better than Job's wife, who was a real piece of work, but on what basis would anyone in Job's day have any concept of "shedding his own righteousness" and "put on God's." As far as those people were concerned, their path to God was by being personally righteous.

HisLeast
Apr 12th 2011, 08:00 PM
Job is speaking what is in his heart to God. Job is telling his friends what he would say to God, but he is directing all his questions to God. Job is accusing God of oppression and shinning on the wicked. He says none can deliver out of your hand.
Then why does Job perpetually tell his friends that he is innocent? Why does he call them terrible comforters? Because he's speaking directly to them. Why would he have to defend his innocence? Because their message is one of "bad things only happen to bad people. Bad stuff happened to you, therefore you sinned".

You'll never know the horror of that advice until you experience it in your hour of need. I learned this lesson as a teen. We were trying to comfort my mother, who was balling her eyes out from intense abdominal pain. Doctors didn't know what it was at the time. Along comes good pastor Ken, who wraps his arm around my mom and tells her that God sends this kind of excruciating pain when we're concealing sin from him, and if she'd only let go of the sin, the pain would go away. In other words "this is all your fault". I often wonder if he'd made the connection between his pride and the calamity of a smashed in mouth if I had hit him with a chair like I wanted to.


I am not into philosophical debate. I am a simple person who likes to study the Word, and glean from it. Job's friends were wrong when they said Job had to be more pure, because he could never be pure enough. What they needed to tell him was that he had to shed his own righteousness and put on God's.
Jobs friends didn't say anything about being "more pure". It was established at the start of the chapter that he was rigteous in God's eyes. Jobs friends are telling him repeatedly that he's sinned and that his calamity is a direct result of that sin.

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 08:06 PM
Why would they say that? Granted, Job's friends are not significantly better than Job's wife, who was a real piece of work, but on what basis would anyone in Job's day have any concept of "shedding his own righteousness" and "put on God's." As far as those people were concerned, their path to God was by being personally righteous.

You could ask the "observant Jew" today and they would say that it was a dumb idea to shed their own righteous and accept God's. They believe they are going to heaven because of their own righteousness. Perhaps saying, shed ones righteousness, is not good terminology, but you see Job had on his robe of righteousness and it clothed him. Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem. It is not that one shouldn't be righteous in their own right, it just that our righteousness will not save us.

How did they understand that it was God's righteousness and not our own that was needed? In the book of Job God speaks to Job and says, "Then will I confess that your own right hand can save you" (Job 40:14) I believe Job understood what God was saying.

Then we look at what the spirit said to Eliphaz, and since it duplicates what God and Elihu said, it must have come from God.

The spirit said, "Shall mortal man be more pure just than God? Shall a man be more pure than his maker?" (Job 4:17)

God said, "Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?" (Job 40:8)

Elihu said, "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

rejoice44
Apr 12th 2011, 08:37 PM
[QUOTE=HisLeast;2658520]Then why does Job perpetually tell his friends that he is innocent? Why does he call them terrible comforters? Because he's speaking directly to them. Why would he have to defend his innocence? Because their message is one of "bad things only happen to bad people. Bad stuff happened to you, therefore you sinned".

You'll never know the horror of that advice until you experience it in your hour of need. I learned this lesson as a teen. We were trying to comfort my mother, who was balling her eyes out from intense abdominal pain. Doctors didn't know what it was at the time. Along comes good pastor Ken, who wraps his arm around my mom and tells her that God sends this kind of excruciating pain when we're concealing sin from him, and if she'd only let go of the sin, the pain would go away. In other words "this is all your fault". I often wonder if he'd made the connection between his pride and the calamity of a smashed in mouth if I had hit him with a chair like I wanted to.

Now I understand where you are coming from, and I sympathize with you, though I know only you could fully understand the hurt. That man did a world of harm.

The circumstances here are different. For one thing God sent those witnesses, at least Job made this claim. Second, Job started off blaming God before they ever said a word. They thought they were acting in God's defense.

Job had two tests, and how would you say he did on the two tests.



Jobs friends didn't say anything about being "more pure".

You are right they didn't say more pure, but they did indicate that if he was righteous this wouldn't be happening to him. I interpolated that to mean more pure, but maybe I shouldn't have.


It was established at the start of the chapter that he was righteous in God's eyes. Jobs friends are telling him repeatedly that he's sinned and that his calamity is a direct result of that sin.

Job declared himself to be an unforgiven sinner. Job 7:21 And why do you not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity?

Why did God give Job the two tests. I believe it was a contest for Job's soul.

If you read Chapter 40 you will hear God ask Job if he will take leviathan for a servant forever. If you then read the last verse of that chapter you will hear God say leviathan is king over the children of pride. Then is you read the 27 chapter of Isaiah you will read that leviathan is the crooked serpent that is going to be punished at the end of time.

AndyBern
Apr 13th 2011, 02:43 AM
In Job 9:17, Job accuses God of acting against him unjustly. It appears to me that this is a sin. But God Himself said this was the truth in Job 2:3. He used the exact same word: chinnam.

As much as I would like to say Job sinned in his accusation, God nowhere accuses Job of sin. He interrogates Job to show how foolish it was for Job to want to put God on trial for His actions, but He doesn't call it a sin, evil, wrong, or whatever, nor does God say He was angry with Job.

The word chinnam first appears with Satan's accusation in Job 1:9: "Does Job fear God for no reason". And so God allowed the test to be along the lines of suffering unjustly so as to vindicate Job from Satan's accusation, and to bring glory to Himself.

LookingUp
Apr 13th 2011, 04:28 AM
I have been discussing this among friends and we have several different views about what the meaning behind the story is.

??????
anyone care to try and explain this book and the meaning.

Here is the question that was posed to me.

Why would God have to prove anything to Satan about one of his righteous people in the way he did it?

I need to study up on this and maybe get a few words from some here about this, because the topic will come up again and I would like to present a response with more depth next time.

My response was the basic.
satan thought without Gods protection and blessings Job would turn from God. God knew Job would not, so he allowed satan to bring heartache on Job. Although Job did ask why he never cursed God, and praised God throughout the ordeal. Job endured and was restored with more blessings in the end. Bad things do happen to the righteous and we can't explain this mystery of God with our human brain.

This is about all I had, which did not seem to satisfy

.....helpHey Lanky, this is long but you may dig this. It's by Christus Victor Ministries.

The point of the book of Job is to teach us that the mystery of evil is a mystery of a war-torn and unfathomably complex creation, not the mystery of God’s all-controlling will.

Given how Christians are yet inclined to look for a divine reason behind catastrophes and personal tragedies, I think it’s a point we have yet to learn.

In this essay I’ll flesh out my reading of this incredibly profound book.

The Prologue
The genre of this book is epic poetry. As is customary with epic poems, it begins with a prologue that sets up the story line (chs 1-2). In Job, this prologue serves as a literary device to give the reader a perspective that the characters in the story lack. This is important, for the point of the whole narrative, we shall see, is to expose the vast ignorance of the characters involved.

The prologue centers on a chance dialogue that takes place between God and a certain rebel angel called (literally in Hebrew) “the satan,” meaning “the adversary.” At this early stage of revelation (many scholars believe that Job is the oldest book in the Bible) this figure had not yet acquired “Satan” as a personal name. Though he is not yet seen as the altogether sinister cosmic force we find him to be in later biblical revelation, he is nevertheless depicted as somewhat outside of, and in opposition to, Yahweh’s authority.

The rebellious nature of the satan alluded to in the prologue is evidenced by the fact that he is not one of the invited guests at the council meeting of the “sons of God” (Job 1:6-7; 2:1). The chance nature of the confrontation between the satan and Yahweh is captured in the fact that Yahweh seems surprised to see him. He has to ask him, “Where have you been?” To which the satan answers, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it” (Job 1:7; 2:2). We see that the satan is not a being who operates under Yahweh’s authority, as do the regular council members. He was not carrying out assignments from God. Rather, he randomly walks to and fro on the earth on his own. Indeed, Yahweh has to protect people from him (1:10).

The satan assails God’s wisdom and character in running the universe by alleging that people only serve him because of what they get out of it. God protects them from him and blesses them in other ways. Their obedience, he is suggesting, isn’t really a free choice. There is no genuine virtue in the world, the satan is claiming. There are only self-serving bargains, and obedience for the sake of being protected and blessed is one of them. Hence, true holiness and virtuous obedience are an illusion. Take away a person’s protection, the satan insists, and let him have his way with people, and they will stop living for God (Job 1:9-11; 2:4-5).

The adversary, we see, was assailing God’s integrity and wisdom in overseeing the creation. He was, in effect, accusing him of being a Machiavellian ruler. In the context of this narrative, it was an assault that could only be refuted by being put to a test.

Had Yahweh simply forced the satan into silence, without proving him wrong, it would have simply confirmed the accuracy of the satan’s charge. It would have shown that there is no integrity or wisdom in how God runs the universe after all. There is only the exercise of power, used to manipulate beings into obeying him. People serve God only as a bargain, not out of genuine love.

No, the challenge had to be answered by having it put to a test. The most righteous man on the earth was thus chosen to be tested. If Job failed, the narrative suggests, then the satan will have made his point. If he succeeded, however, then God’s wisdom and integrity in running the cosmos will have been vindicated. Hence, the protective fence around Job is removed and the satan is allowed to afflict him.

One final word about the prologue should be noted before we discuss the body of this work. Since we are dealing with an epic poem, most Old Testament scholars agree that it is misguided to press this prologue for literal details about God’s general relationship to Satan. The literary point of the prologue is not to answer questions like, “Does Satan always have to get specific permission every time he does something?,” or “Is every affliction the result of a heavenly challenge to God’s authority?” As with Jesus’ parables, the central point of the prologue is the only point the reader is supposed to get. We misunderstand Jesus’ parable about Lazarus, for example, if we wonder whether people in hell can literally talk to people in paradise (Lk 16:19-31). This is simply a literary prop to allow Jesus to make the point that if people don’t repent now on the basis of the revelation they’ve already received, they wouldn’t respond even if someone (like Larzarus) came back from the dead (Lk 16:31).

So it is in the prologue of Job. The purpose of the prologue is to set up a specific episode that will vindicate God’s wisdom and integrity. It serves this function by bringing the readers in on the satan’s assault on God’s wisdom and character while leaving the actors in this drama in the dark. It thus highlights the ignorance of the actors as they each put forth their theological perspectives. It shows that things happen to people on earth because of chance encounters in heaven, about which these people know nothing. And, as we shall see, this is the central point of the whole epic drama.

Is Job to Blame?
The bulk of the narrative is formed around Job’s conversations with his friends. Though his friends initially do the right thing and sit in silence (Job 2:11-13), when Job begins to express his pain, his friends begin to correct his theology. Sounding remarkably like many Christians today when they confront people in pain, and illustrating perfectly the complaint the satan originally raised against God, his friends insist that since God is perfectly just, Job must deserve what God is dishing out to him. People who serve God are protected and blessed, they assume. So they feel justified in concluding that those who clearly have not been protected and are not being blessed — people like Job — simply haven’t been serving God. They are, therefore, being disciplined.

Eliphaz is representative of this sort of blueprint wisdom when he says to Job:

“Think now, who that was innocent ever perished?
Or where were the upright cut off?
As I have seen, those who plow iniquity
and sow trouble reap the same.
By the breath of God they perish,
and by the blast of his anger they are consumed. ” (Job 4:7-9)

Of course, we all know that innocent and upright people are “cut off” all the time. Sometimes babies die in the birthing process! Eliphaz’s statements illustrate the remarkable capacity some people have to ignore reality for the sake of preserving a formulaic theology that serves their own purposes. As Job himself recognizes, his friends put forth their theology as a way of reassuring themselves that what happened to Job couldn’t happen to them (Job 6:20-21). They were theologizing out of their own fears and to meet their own needs, not as a way of ministering to Job in the midst of his needs. Surely the universe can’t be as arbitrary as it seems, Job’s friends insist. And in the process of reassuring themselves, they are indicting Job, for his unfortunate life doesn’t conform to his friends’ wishful-thinking theology.

Nevertheless, Eliphaz continues, since God always does the right thing, and since both Job and his friends are assuming that God is directly behind what is happening to Job, Job should actually be happy about his plight. For it means that God is disciplining him for a good reason:

“How happy is the one whom God reproves;
therefore do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.
For he wounds, but he binds up;
he strikes, but his hands heal.” (Job 5:17-18)

This “encouragement” is being given to a man who just lost everything he owned, his health and his family! Yet, they insist, if Job would simply acknowledge that he is being justly disciplined he would get his protection and blessing back from God:

“[God] will deliver you from six troubles;
in seven no harm shall touch you.
In famine he will redeem you from death,
and in war from the power of the sword. ” (Job 5:19-20)

“At destruction and famine you shall laugh,
and shall not fear the wild animals of the earth.
You shall know that your tent is safe,
you shall inspect your fold and miss nothing.
You shall know that your descendants will be many,
and your offspring like the grass of the earth.
You shall come to your grave in ripe old age,
as a shock of grain comes up to the threshing floor in its season.
See, we have searched this out; it is true.
Hear, and know it for yourself.” (Job 5:22,24-27)

As cliché assurances often are, these words are self-serving and wounding. Promising a father who just lost all his children (Job 1:18-19) that if he will only get right with God his “tent” will be safe, his children will not be missing and his offspring will be like “the grass of the earth” is not just hollow: it is positively cruel. It is what Job’s friends want to believe, for they want assurance that what happened to Job can’t happen to them. But their wish-based theology is out of sync with reality and completely unhelpful to their suffering friend.

One of the central points of this profound book is to expose the shallowness of this popular theology. When God shows up to reveal the truth in several speeches at the end of the book (chs 37-41), he does not concede that what happened to Job had anything to do with disciplining or punishment. Indeed, God angrily rebukes Job’s friends for speaking erroneously about God (Job 42:7).

This is not to say that everything Job’s friends say about God is incorrect. This book is far too subtle to paint everything in either-or terms. It artfully paints a thoroughly ambiguous picture of the cosmos where those who are basically in the wrong sometimes speak right, and those whose hearts are basically right (Job) nevertheless speak many untruths, as we shall see (see Job 42:7). Yet the central point of the book’s portrayal of the friends’ “wisdom” to Job is that they speak out of massive ignorance.

Did Yahweh Bring About Job’s Trouble?
The theology of Job’s friends isn’t the only theology this book aims at correcting. Though it is often missed, this book also is intent on refuting Job’s theology. Against his friends, Job insists that he is not more blameworthy than they or any other human being. But since he shares his friends blueprint assumption that God is behind all that has happened to him, the only alternative conclusion available to him is that God is in fact arbitrary. When Yahweh appears at the end of this book, he no more agrees with Job’s theology than he agrees with the theology of his friends (Job 38-42).

One verse toward the end of this book has caused many to miss the point that this work intends to refute Job’s theology as well as that of his friends. When Yahweh is done speaking, the author notes that his friends consoled him for “the trouble (rah) the Lord had brought on him” (Job 42:11, NIV). Several considerations should prevent us from concluding that this verse implies that Job was correct in seeing God as the cause of all his suffering.

First, while everyone else at the time the Old Testament was written believed that the world was fashioned and ruled by many conflicting gods, the Old Testament emphasizes that everything ultimately comes from one Creator God. To drive home this highly distinctive belief, Old Testament authors consistently emphasize God as the ultimate source of everything that happens in creation. Even the consequences of free decisions are in a sense brought about by the Creator, in their view, for he alone created the people (or angels) who make their own decisions.

More specifically, Yahweh is depicted in terms of an ancient Near Eastern monarch who takes responsibility for what his delegates do, even if they do not carry out his own wishes in the process of doing it. An authority’s delegates are, in a sense, an extension of himself. In a context where the singularity of the cosmic monarch needs to be emphasized, such as we have in the Old Testament, the autonomy of the subordinate delegates is minimized and the Creator as the ultimate source of their authority is maximized. It is in this sense that everything humans and angels do is seen as coming from God.

But understood in an Ancient Near East context, this doesn’t entail that everything human or angelic agents do happens in accordance with God’s will, or that God is himself morally responsible for what the agents he creates choose to do. The heavenly and human agents Yahweh creates are the originators of their own free decisions and are morally responsible for these decisions. Yahweh is the ultimate source of their freedom, and he takes responsibility for the cosmos as a whole. But the agents themselves decide how they will use this God-given freedom. Hence, in this context, to say that something came from Yahweh, via another agent, is not to say that this thing was part of Yahweh’s own plan, that he directly brought it about, or that he in any sense wills it (though as the Creator he wills and brings about the possibility of evil deeds by creating agents free).

Second, and closely related to this, Job 42:11 needs to be interpreted in light of the prologue which clearly shows that it was the satan, not God, who afflicted Job. True, God entered into the wager with the satan and allowed him to afflict Job in order to answer the satan’s assault on his integrity. In this sense he brought Job’s troubles on him. But he did not himself plan or cause these afflictions, as Job later alleges. Indeed, as we noted above, the prologue goes out of its way to emphasize the haphazard nature by which Job’s life was turned upside down. The satan , who wanders about on his own while causing mischief (which Yahweh has to protect people from, Job 1:10), just happens to show up at a heavenly council meeting. What happened to Job was certainly not part of Yahweh’s perfect plan for his life!

Third, and even more importantly, we need to interpret this verse in the light of Jesus’ ministry, for Jesus is the central place where God’s character and will are revealed. In Jesus’ ministry, people who suffered the sort of afflictions Job suffered were diagnosed as being the direct or indirect victims of Satan’s warfare against God. God’s will was revealed not in the afflictions Jesus encountered, but in his loving and powerful response to these afflictions.

Along the same lines, Christ’s incarnation, death and resurrection reveal that though God is not culpable for the evil in the world, he nevertheless takes responsibility for the evil in the world. And in taking responsibility for it, he overcomes it. On the cross God suffers at the hands of evil. And in this suffering, and through his resurrection, he in principle destroys evil. Through the cross and resurrection, God unequivocally displays his loving character and establishes his loving purpose for the world, despite its evil resistance. He thereby demonstrates that evil is not something he wills into existence: it is something he wills out of existence.

Fourth, the most decisive indicator that the author of this book intends to refute Job’s theology is that Yahweh never acknowledges that he was the one behind Job’s suffering in his climatic speeches at the end of this book. As we shall see, he rather appeals to factors in creation to explain to Job why he can’t understand his suffering.

Job gets the point, for when God is done talking he repents (42:6) and confesses, “I have uttered what I did not understand” (Job 42:3). However we interpret Job 42:11, therefore, it can’t be taken to endorse a theology Yahweh refutes and Job repents of.

Job’s Misguided Theology.
A final clear indication that the author does not intend to endorse Job’s theology is that many of the things Job says throughout this work are things no one would recommend that people embrace – though they are, in fact, logical consequences of the assumption that God is behind Job’s suffering. For example, throughout the narrative Job depicts God as a cruel tyrant who controls everything in an arbitrary fashion. “When disaster brings sudden death,” Job exclaims,

“[God] mocks at the calamity of the
innocent.
The earth is given into the hand of the
wicked;
He covers the eyes of its judges –
If it is not he, who then is it?” (Job 9:23-24, cf. 21:17-26, 30-32; 24:1-12)

God laughs at the misfortunes of the innocent and causes judges to judge unjustly! Can anyone imagine a biblical author endorsing this perspective? Of course not. But it gets worse:

“Why are times not kept by the
Almighty?
And why do those who know him
never see his days?” (Job 24:1)

“What is the Almighty, that we should serve him?
And what profit do we get if we pray to him?” (Job 21:15)

“From the city the dying groan,
And the throat of the wounded cries
for help;
Yet God pays no attention to their
prayer.” (Job 24:12)

The victims of injustice – which God himself is bringing about – cry for help, but God pays no attention to their prayers. Are we to believe that this is the view the author is recommending, in contrast to the theology of Job’s friends?

Yet Job’s depiction of God is even harsher when he considers the injustice of his own state. For example, Job cries out to the Lord,

“Your hands fashioned and made me;
And now you turn and destroy me” (10:8).

“Bold as a lion you hunt me;
And repeat your exploits against me…
Let me alone; that I might find a little
comfort” (10:9, 20).

“You have turned cruel to me;
and with the might of your hand you
persecute me” (30:21).

And to his friends Job testifies,

“…God has worn me out;
he has made desolate all my
company.
And he has shrivelled me up…
He has torn me in his wrath, and
hated me;
He has gnashed his teeth at me;
my adversary sharpens his eyes
against me” (16:7-9, cf. 11-17).

“With violence he seizes my garment;
He grasps me by the collar of my
tunic…” (30:18).

Are we to believe that these are theological insights the author of this work is recommending to his readers? Are we to view God as our “adversary” instead of our “advocate” (cf. Jn 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7; I Jn 2:1)? Are we to believe that our comfort is to be found when God leaves us alone (Job 10:20) rather than when he is with us? Doesn’t the God Job describes in these passages sound much more like “a roaring lion… looking for someone to devour” – in other words, “your adversary the devil” (I Pet 5:8)? Of course it does, which is why Job later confesses “I have uttered what I did not understand” (Job 42:3) and proclaims, “I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes” (Job 42:6).

In times of tragedy, people often quote Job’s words “the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away” (Job 1:21) when someone has lost something or someone precious to them. The irony is that, though they are spoken from an honest and upright heart, these words are part and parcel of a theology Job repents of. Though Job initially “did not sin or charge God with wrong-doing” (Job 1:22), this theology ultimately led Job to complete despair. Before long Job would work out with ruthless clarity the implications of what he believed, as we saw above.

When the despairing Job complained, “Your hands fashioned and made me; And now you turn and destroy me” (10:8), was he not articulating, in less pious terms, the same view of God when he earlier said, “the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away”? Though his willingness to submit changed to rage as his despair deepened, his view of God remained the same. As we have seen, for Job, the God who arbitrarily gives and takes away is a capricious destroyer, a vicious predator, an adversary of humanity, the source of all suffering and injustice, a mocker of the innocent, and a God who doesn’t heed the prayers of those in need.

This is definitely not the view of God the author of this inspired book is commending to his readers. But it is the view of Job, and is completely consistent with the assumption, shared by his friends, that God is behind each and every adversity in life.

The Straightness of Job’s Heart.
When God shows up to set the record straight, providing us with a three chapter climax of this book, he corrects the thinking of both Job and his friends (chs 38-41). Job passed his test not because his theology was correct, but because he did not reject God even when his theology told him he should. Despite his theological misconceptions, and despite his impious ranting throughout the narrative, Job’s heart remained honest with God. His friends’ theology usually sounded much more pious, but their hearts were actually farther from God than was Job’s. In the words of John Gibson,

“Of course God did not approve of everything that his proud and litigious servant had said about him (his speeches from the whirlwind have made that abundantly clear), but he infinitely preferred Job’s attacks on him to the friends’ defense of him” (1)

Job spoke straight (kûn) about God, from the heart, while his friends spoke in self-serving ways (Job 42:7). Not only this, but Job worked out his theology with ruthless consistency. If God were in fact the all-controlling deity Job assumed him to be, then the terrible conclusions he drew about God were “right.” Yet, despite this conception of God, Job did not reject him in his heart. Against the charge of the satan, he thereby proved that people can worship God of their own free will, just because he is God, and not because there’s something in it for them when they do so.

Vastness and Complexity of Creation.
Still, God wanted to correct Job’s theology as much as that of his friends. Hence, in the concluding speeches, God no more acknowledges Job’s perspective than he does the friends’ perspective. Rather, he refutes both perspectives by alluding to two facts: human ignorance about the vastness and complexity of the cosmos; and human ignorance about the enormity of the powers of chaos that God must contend with.

To highlight the first fact, the Lord asks Job, “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?” (Job 38:2). “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?” (Job 38:4). And he continues:
.
“Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone
when the morning stars sang together
and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?” (Job 38:5-7).

“Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this” (Job 38:16-18).

“What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth”? (Job 38:24).

“Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?” (Job 38:33).

The point of these questions is to expose the massive ignorance of Job and his friends. The Lord is putting all of them in their place to demonstrate how arrogant it is for Job’s friends to accuse him or for Job to accuse God. Since we know so little about the vastness, complexity, and ordinances of creation, we are in no position to accuse anyone. But note, the ignorance the Lord highlights in this passage is an ignorance about creation. Job’s friends accuse Job, and Job accuses God, because they fail to a humbly acknowledge the complexity of the world God has created and their vast ignorance about it.

Decision Making and Chaos Theory
A recent development in science helps illustrate the point God is making to Job, for it highlights the interconnected complexity of life and the impossibility of our ever exhaustively comprehending it. It is called chaos theory.

Put in simplest terms, it has recently been demonstrated that the slightest variation in a sufficiently complex process at one point may cause remarkable variations in that process at another point. The flap of a butterfly wing in one part of the globe can, under the right conditions, be the decisive variable that brings about a hurricane in another part of the globe several months later. (Hence this has been called “the butterfly effect.”) To exhaustively explain why a hurricane (or any weather pattern for that matter) occurs when and where it does, therefore, we’d have to know every detail about the past history of the earth – including every flap of every butterfly wing that ever existed! We of course cannot ever approximate this kind of knowledge, which is why weather forecasting will always involve a significant degree of guesswork.

By analogy, this insight may be applied to free decisions. Because love requires choice, humans and angels have the power to affect others for better or worse. Indeed, every decision we make affects other agents in some measure. Sometimes the short-term effects of our choices are apparent, as in the way the decisions of parents immediately affect their children or the way decisions of leaders immediately affect their subjects. The long-term effects of our decisions are never obvious, however. They are like ripples created by a rock thrown into a pond. They endure long after the initial splash, and they interact with other ripples (consequences of other decisions) in ways we could never have anticipated. And in certain circumstances, they may have a “butterfly effect.” They may be the decisive variable that produces significant changes in the pond.

We might think of the over-all state of the cosmos at any given moment as the total pattern of ripples of a constant stream of rocks thrown into a pond. Each ripple interacts with other ripples, creating interference patterns. Every event and every decision that takes place in history is such an interference pattern. They are the result of multitudes of decisions intersecting with one another in various ways. And once each event or decision occurs, they then contribute to all subsequent interference patterns.

Each individual influences the whole by how they use their morally responsible “say-so,” creating ripples that affect other agents. And as the originators and ultimate explanation for their own decisions, they assume primary responsible for the ripples they create. Yet each individual is also influenced by the whole. Decisions others have made have affected their life, and these people were themselves affected by decisions others made. In this sense every event and every decision is an “interference pattern” of converging ripples extending back to Adam, and each decision we make influences the over-all interference pattern that affects subsequent individuals.

From this it should be clear that to explain in any exhaustive sense why any particular event took place just the way it did, we would have to know the entire history of the universe. Had any agent, angelic or human, made any decision different than it did, the world would be a slightly different – or perhaps significantly different – place. But we, of course, can never know more than an infinitesimally small fraction of these previous decisions, let alone why these agents chose the way they did. Add to this our massive ignorance of most natural events in history — which also create their own “ripples” — combined with our ignorance of foundational physical and spiritual laws that are operative in the cosmos, and we begin to see why we invariably experience life as mostly ambiguous and highly arbitrary. We are the heir to an incomprehensibly vast array of human, angelic, and natural “ripples” throughout history about which we know next to nothing but which nevertheless significantly affect our life.

Using a language Job could understand, this was essentially the point God was making in his first speech. We finite humans have no means of knowing the innumerable variables that would explain why things happen the precise way they happen. Whether we are speaking of human decisions, angelic decisions, or the flap of butterfly wings, the creation is too vast and complex for us to get our minds around. Yet every detail affects the course of things in at least a small way. Hence we experience life as largely arbitrary.

In the end, the question, “Why me?” — or “Why Job?” — is unanswerable. It is a mystery. But the point of the book of the Job — and a lesson we can appropriate from chaos theory – is that this is not a mystery about God’s will or character. It is a mystery surrounding the vastness and complexity of creation. We experience life as arbitrary simply because we are finite. And when we try to arrogantly deny this finitude by ignoring all we do not know about creation, we end up either indicting people (as Job’s friends did) or indicting God (as Job did). What we learn from this profound book is that the reason why Job – as opposed to someone else – suffered as he did had nothing to do with his sinful character or God’s arbitrary character. It rather had to do with a haphazard confrontation in the heavenly realm between God and an adversary that no one in the context of the narrative ever knew anything about.

When all is said and done, the mystery of why any particular misfortune befalls one person rather than another is no different than the mystery of why any particular event happens the way it does. Every particular thing we think we understand in creation is engulfed in an infinite sea of mystery we can’t understand. The mystery of the particularity of evil is simply one manifestation of the mystery of every particular thing.

LookingUp
Apr 13th 2011, 04:28 AM
The War That Engulfs Creation.
The second fact God alludes to in his correction of Job and his friends concerns the warfare that engulfs the creation. Ancient Near Eastern people depicted cosmic evil either as hostile waters that encircled and threatened to destroy the earth, or as cosmic creatures (identified as “Behemoth” in ch. 40 and “Leviathan” in ch. 41) who threatened to destroy the world. This was their way of thinking about demonic “principalities and powers,” and it is found throughout the Bible (e.g. Job 3:8, 9:13; 26:12; Psl 74:14; Psl 87:4, 89:10; Isa 27:1; 51:9). In order to make his point to Job, in a language Job could understand, Yahweh reminds him of his battle with both the raging sea and the cosmic monsters.

Regarding the cosmic sea the Lord says,

“…who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb…
and prescribed bounds for it,
and set bars and doors,
and said, “Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stopped?” (38:8, 10–11).

Yahweh is reminding Job of the proud and hostile sea which, all Ancient Near Eastern people believed, must be kept at bay if the order of the world is to preserved. Until Job thinks he can do a better job at this that God, he should be reticent to follow the satan’s lead and challenge God’s character and ability in running the cosmos.

Concerning Leviathan, the Lord asks Job, “Can you draw out Levia¬than with a fishhook, or press down its tongue with a cord?” (41:1). Only the Lord can contend with this malevolent creature (though even he needs a sword! [40:19]), for this cosmic beast is indeed ferocious:

“Its sneezes flash forth light,
and its eyes are like the eyelids of the dawn.
From its mouth go flaming torches;
sparks of fire leap out.
Out of its nostrils comes smoke,
as from a boiling pot and burning rushes.
Its breath kindles coals,
and a flame comes out of its mouth…
It counts iron as straw,
and bronze as rotten wood…” (41:18–21, 27).

This cosmic beast fears nothing (41:33). It cannot be captured or domesticated (41:1–8). Even “the gods” are “overwhelmed at the sight of it” (41:9, 25). And no one “under heaven” can “confront it and be safe” (41:11). Yahweh emphasizes the ferociousness of this beast not to call into question his own ability to handle it, but to stress to Job that this foe is indeed formidable. The battle Yahweh is engaged in is not a charade.

By reminding Job of the cosmic forces he must contend with, God again exposes the presumptuousness of the simplistic theologies of both Job and his friends. Neither considered the warfare that engulfs creation. Both simply assumed that things unfold the way Yahweh wants them to. Yahweh’s appeal to the battle he’s involved in alters these theologies considerably. It means that not everything happens exactly as Yahweh would wish. He himself must battle forces of chaos.

Fredrik Lindstöm, an eminent Old Testament scholar, sums up the matter well when he writes:

“[Yahweh] in fact partially admits to Job that there are parts of Creation which are indeed chaotic; here we catch sight of an understanding of the world in which evil… neither comes directly from God, as Job maintains, nor can it be accommodated to a world order in which it is ultimately related to human behavior, as Job’s friends claim.” (2)

And again,

“Job explicitly held [Yahweh] responsible for all the evil of existence, so [Yahweh] rebuts this charge by pointing to his own continuous combat with evil as manifested in these chaos creatures.” (3)

The cosmos is far more complex and combatant than either Job or his friends had assumed.

Another eminent Old Testament scholar, John Gibson, expresses the point even more forcefully. He notes that “[C]hapters 40 and 41 do not mention an open victory of God over Behemoth and Leviathan, but simply describe them as they are in their full horror and savagery.” From this he concludes that the central point of these chapters is to draw attention

“…to the Herculean task God faces in controlling these fierce creatures of his in the here and now. They are in fact set forth as worthy opponents of their Creator. They are quite beyond the ability of men to take on and bring to book. On the contrary, they treat men with scorn and derision, delighting to tease and humiliate and terrorize them….even God has to watch for them and handle them with kid gloves. It takes all his ‘craft and power’ to keep them in subjection and prevent them from bringing to naught all that he has achieved…. It is of this divine risk as well as of the divine grace and power that Job is… being given an intimation in Yahweh’s second speech: of the terrible reality of evil and (as Job himself was now only too well aware) of the dangers it presents to men…”(4).

The point of Yahweh’s second speech — the foundation of which was laid in the prologue, as we have seen — is that things go on “behind the scenes” that are not part of God’s plan, are not directly under God’s control and in fact that resist God’s providential control, but which nevertheless affect human lives. We know next to nothing and can do next to nothing about these happenings. Hence we experience life as an arbitrary flux of fortune and misfortune.

The fact that neither Job nor his friends are ever told about the satan who began the whole mess reinforces this point. After the prologue the satan is not mentioned again. The main characters of this epic poem never learn what the reader knew all along. And this is precisely the point of the book. We don’t know and can’t know why particular harmful events unfold exactly as they do. What we can know, however, is why we can’t know. And the reason we can’t know is not because God’s plan or character is mysterious, but because we are finite humans who exist in an incomprehensibly vast creation that is afflicted by forces of chaos. The mystery of the particularity of evil, which is no different than the mystery of the particularity of everything, is located in the mystery of creation, not the mystery of God. And given this mystery, we must refrain either from blaming each other, or blaming God, when misfortunes arise. Rather, following the example of Jesus, we must simply ask, What can we do in response to the evil we encounter?

Western Christians rarely take seriously the reality of the spirit world as a variable that affects their lives. We ordinarily assume that God’s will and human faith are the only two relevant variables that decide what comes to pass. So, for example, if we pray for something and it doesn’t come to pass, Christians typically conclude that it must not have been God’s will or that the person praying lacked faith, didn’t pray hard enough, or some such issue. The book of Job, the ministry of Jesus, and the Bible in general suggest that such formulaic thinking misses the complexity of the real world and is dangerous for just this reason.

A Delay in Daniel’s Prayer
One of the most intriguing and graphic illustrations of the significance of the spirit world in understanding what comes to pass is found in the book of Daniel. For three weeks Daniel fasted and prayed to hear from God, with no answer (Dan 10:3). Finally, an angel appeared to him and said,

“Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia” (Dan. 10:12-13).

The delay in answering Daniel’s prayer had nothing to do with God’s will or Daniel’s lack of faith or piety. It was rather due to the interference of a demonic spirit called “the prince of the kingdom of Persia.” As we have seen, because God’s purpose in creation is love, he wants to carry out his will through agents who choose to love and obey him. Hence he usually works through mediators, both on a physical and spiritual level. And what happens to these mediators affects the way God’s will is carried out through them. When they align themselves with God’s purposes, things go smoothly. But when they set themselves in opposition to God’s will, such as this territorial spirit had done, God’s will is disrupted. Only when the angel Michael could help him out was this angel who was dispatched to answer Daniel’s prayer freed to do so.

Not only this, but after arriving the angel tells Daniel why he has to leave quickly.

“Now I must return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I am through with him, the prince of Greece will come…There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince” (Dan. 10:20-21).

It seems that Michael was now in need of his help in battling the spiritual powers that opposed God. Perhaps there were no other angels on God’s side available to aid him. People often assume that God has an unlimited number of angels available to him. But Scripture suggests that the nature of things in the spiritual realm is not that different from the nature of things in our physical realm. Because God has chosen to work through physical and spiritual mediators who are finite in number and strength, the way battles progress is influenced by the number and strength of agents fighting for or against his purposes.

Through this episode we gain a rare glimpse of the sorts of things that go on behind the scenes that affect our lives. Had the angel not revealed this information to Daniel, Daniel would never have known why it took twenty-one days for his prayer to be answered. It would have seemed totally arbitrary. No doubt some would have followed Job’s lead and said, “It must not be God’s will” or “God’s timing is the best timing.” Others would have followed his friends lead and concluded, “Daniel must lack faith or must not be righteous.”

In point of fact, the delay had nothing to do with either of these variables. It rather had to do with agents in the spiritual realm who possess “say-so” and who use it to either further or resist Gods’ purposes. Like humans, angels create ripples that create interference patterns with other ripples, for better or for worse. Yet we can know even less about angelic ripples than we can about human ripples.

Conclusion
Most of us do not like ambiguity. Life is generally easier if we convince ourselves that everything is clear and simple. This, I believe, is part of our legacy of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 3:1-7). In our fallen delusion, we feel it our right, and within our capacity, to declare unambiguously who and what is “good” and who and what is “evil.” We are not omniscient, but having eaten from the forbidden tree, we have a fallen misguided impulse to judge matters as though we were. We have difficulty accepting our finitude and the massive ignorance and ambiguity that necessarily attaches to it.

In point of fact, however, the creation could only be experienced by finite beings such as ourselves as unfathomably complex and therefore mostly ambiguous. We have no means of ascertaining more than a minute fraction of the variables that factor into each and every event within this unfathomably complex creation. This is not because we are fallen: it is simply because we are finite. This is why our original job description – a job description God is yet calling on us to fulfill – involves very little knowing but a great deal of loving. Our limited domain of responsibility is primarily to love God and others as we are ourselves filled with God’s love. Hence the Bible repeatedly calls on us to love and refrain from judgment (Mt 7:1-5; Rom 2:1-5; Jame 4:11-12).

Because of our fallen addiction to the forbidden tree, however, we want to know and judge. If our finite knowledge can’t adjust to the complexity of reality, we simply try to readjust the complexity of reality to our finite capacity to know. Hence we bracket off the complexity of reality and act like things are simple enough for us to understand.

This is why many of us are compulsively inclined to judge people on the basis of the surface behavior we see, bracketing off the vast complexity of variables that affect and perhaps explain this perceived behavior. Though the Bible expressly forbids it, pretending like we can know and judge a person’s heart gives us a sense of ethical superiority and personal security. And this is also why we are inclined toward simplistic, formulaic theologies . Like Job’s friends, and like Job himself, we feel secure and justified when we bracket off the complexity and ambiguity of reality and convince ourselves that the world unfolds according to a divine blueprint. We assume that everything can be explained simply by appealing to God’s will and/or the will of people.

Yet, this theology works only so long as we can in fact bracket off reality. But when reality in all its unfathomable complexity and war torn horror encroaches in on us, our theology suffers and victims suffer. When we compromise what we do know because we forget what we don’t know — when we make the mystery of evil a mystery about God rather than creation — we tarnish God’s character and indict victims of war. As depicted in the book of Job, some blame God, others blame people. But, as the book of Job teaches us, both responses are fundamentally mistaken.

A healthier perspective, and a perspective which both honors God’s character as it is revealed in Christ and refrains from indicting people, is one that acknowledges the ambiguity and the warfare up front. We must with confidence anchor ourselves in what we can know – that God looks like Jesus – and simply confess ignorance about everything else.

If we are going to blame anyone, the book of Job and the ministry of Jesus would have it be Leviathan, Behemoth, hostile cosmic waters or (what comes to the same thing) the devil. Though we can’t know the “why” of any particular instance of suffering, we can and must know that our whole environment is under siege by forces that hate God and hate all that is good. We are by our own rebellion caught in the crossfire of a cosmic war, and we suffer accordingly.

rejoice44
Apr 13th 2011, 01:38 PM
I have been discussing this among friends and we have several different views about what the meaning behind the story is.

??????
anyone care to try and explain this book and the meaning.

Most of the commentaries on Job are man’s opinions backed up with few verses, and the conclusion is always that Job is not understandable. The Bible does give answers and is the reason why we are commended to study, comparing scripture with scripture. Few understand Revelation, and yet we are commended to study it with the promise that we will receive a blessing. Remember, God is not the author of confusion.

With that in mind, I would like to present some scripture to compare Job with, and it is from the book of Lamentations.

The key to this comparison is found in chapter four of Lamentations.

Lamentations 4:21-22 Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto you: you shall be drunken, and shall make yourself naked. The punishment of your iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry you away into captivity: he will visit iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins.

In these two verses we have two daughters representing two nations, the nation Israel, and the nation Edom. Breaking it down farther we have Jacob and Esau.

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Genesis 25:30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

So we have the two daughters, Israel who is Zion, and Esau who is Edom that are found in Lamentations 4:21-22. In the first chapter of Lamentations we see the woe that has come upon the daughter of Zion because of the multitude of her transgressions. (Lamentations 1:5) Also note that it is the Lord who has afflicted her.

In Lamentations 4:21 we see that the daughter of Edom dwells in the land of Uz, which just happens to be the home of Job, who is the greatest man in Uz. We also see the cup of woe being passed from Zion to Edom. The following will be a comparison of the first eighteen verses of Lamentations three, with those of the book of Job.

Lamentations 3:1 I am the man who has seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.

Job 19:8 He has also kindled his wrath against me, and he counts me to him as one of his enemies.
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Lamentations 3:2 He has led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.

Job 30:26 When I looked for good, then evil came to me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness.
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Lamentations 3:3 Surely against me He has turned His hand Repeatedly all the day.

Job 30:21 You have turned cruel to me; with the might of your hand you persecute me.
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Lamentations 3:4 My flesh and my skin has he made old; he has broken my bones.

Job 33:21 His flesh wastes away to nothing, and his bones, once hidden, now stick out.
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Lamentations 3:5 He has built against me, and compassed me with gall and travail.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about; He cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; He pours out my gall upon the ground.
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Lamentations 3:6 He hath made me to dwell in dark places, as those that have been long dead.

Job 3:4-5 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it. Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell on it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.
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Lamentations 3:7 He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy.

Job 3:23, Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, And whom God hath hedged in? (19:8) He has fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he has set darkness in my paths.
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Lamentations 3:8 Also when I cry and shout, he shuts out my prayer.

Job 30:20 I cry to you, and you do not hear me: I stand up, and you regard me not.
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Lamentations 3:9 He hath walled up my ways with hewn stone; he hath made my paths crooked.

Job 12:25 They grope in the dark without light, and he makes them to stagger like a drunken man.
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Lamentations 3:10 He was to me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.

Job 10:16 For it increases. You hunt me as a fierce lion: and again you show yourself marvelous on me.
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Lamentations 3:11 He has turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he has made me desolate.

Job 19:8-9 He has fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he has set darkness in my paths. He has stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.
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Lamentations 3:12 He has bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.

Job 16:12 I was at ease, but he has broken me asunder: he has also taken me by my neck, and shaken me to pieces, and set me up for his mark.
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Lamentations 3:13 He has caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about, he splits my reins asunder, and does not spare; he pours out my gall on the ground.
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Lamentations 3:14 was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.

Job 30:9 And now am I their song, yes, I am their byword.
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Lamentations 3:15 He has filled me with bitterness, he has made me drunken with wormwood.

Job 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but fills me with bitterness.
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Lamentations 3:16 He has also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he has covered me with ashes.

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself with; and he sat down among the ashes. (29:17) And I broke the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.
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Lamentations 3:17 And you have removed my soul far off from peace: I forgot prosperity.

Job 7:15 So that my soul chooses strangling, and death rather than my life.
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Lamentations 3:18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:

Job 19:10 He has destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and my hope has he removed like a tree.
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Hopefully you can see the connection here between Job and Israel, the daughter of Edom who is from Uz, and the daughter of Zion, who is Israel. You should be able to see the cup that was passed from Israel to Edom.

Job parallels Israel. Job had a zeal for God that was evident, yet he lacked knowledge as we are told by God in Job 38:2. Paul said this of Israel, Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

Job went about to establish his own righteousness as witnessed by God. Job 40:8 Will you condemn me that you may be righteous.Job 27:6 My righteousness, I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Paul said of Israel, Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Paul said Israel was not saved. Romans 10:1 Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

In the book of Lamentations it is made quite clear that God is responsible for Israel’s affliction because of Israel’s transgressions:

rejoice44
Apr 14th 2011, 11:08 AM
In the comparison of Job and Lamentations the questioned can be asked, why was it that all Israel suffered as the daughter of Zion, while only one man suffered as the daughter of Edom? The answer lies in the book of Job when Elihu says, "When he gives quietness who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:" Job 34:29

AndyBern
Apr 15th 2011, 02:51 PM
Another main theme of the book (and perhaps the main theme in terms of application) is the fear of God.

Job's fear of God was one of the four qualities listed in Job 1:1, 1:8, and 2:3. His life revolved around this (31:1-4,13-15,23,28).


"I have made a covenant with my eyes; how then could I gaze at a virgin? What would be my portion from God above and my heritage from the Almighty on high? Is not calamity for the unrighteous, and disaster for the workers of iniquity? Does not he see my ways and number all my steps? ... If I have rejected the cause of my manservant or my maidservant, when they brought a complaint against me, what then shall I do when God rises up? When he makes inquiry, what shall I answer him? Did not he who made me in the womb make him? And did not one fashion us in the womb? ... For I was in terror of calamity from God, and I could not have faced his majesty. ... this also would be an iniquity to be punished by the judges, for I would have been false to God above. ..."

Job's offering of sacrifices for his children was on the basis of the possibility of acting out of their lack of fear of God (Job 1:5).


"It may be my sons have cursed God in their hearts."

It was Job's fear of God that was put to the test. This was Satan's main focus in his attacks (1:9,11, 2:5):


"Does Job fear You for nothing? ... put forth Your hand... and he will curse You to your face!"

And Job withstood the tests (1:20-21, 2:10)

Even though the attack was specifically aimed at her, his wife failed in this specific area (2:9):


"Curse God and die!"

Even during his sufferings, Job's main concern was based on fear. He wish God would take his life before he cursed God (Job 6:8-10).


"Oh that I might have my request, and that God would fulfill my hope, that it would please God to crush me, that he would let loose his hand and cut me off! This would be my comfort; I would even exult in pain unsparing, for I have not denied the words of the Holy One."

Interestingly, Abraham's test in offering up Isaac was also on the basis of the fear of God (Genesis 22:12). And the Israelites traveled through the wilderness to test and build their fear of God (Exodus 20:20).


"Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."


Moses said to the people, "Do not fear, for God has come to test you, that the fear of him may be before you, that you may not sin."

The results of Job's tests disproved Satan's accusations. After all was taken away, Job still feared God. Job's fear was unbribed: he really did fear God for nothing. Verse 42:7 can also be read in light of this. While Job cursed himself in chapter 3, he refused to curse God but spoke rightly of Him.

God is worthy of our fear. (This fear is a sober and healthy respect for Him... a bit like a electrician's fear of electricity.)

The question to ask ourselves is: If God took away all good from me, would I continue to fear Him? Even if He (hypothetically) took away my salvation (a gift I don't deserve), would I continue to bless Him just because of who He is? Do I fear God for nothing?

rejoice44
Apr 15th 2011, 11:20 PM
And Job withstood the tests (1:20-21, 2:10)

Did Job really withstand the tests?

There were two tests, and Job's reply and God's reply were entirely different between the first test and the second test.

Consider that the dialogue was essentially identical between the first test and the second test. If you compare what Job said between the first test, and the second test it reads like night and day. The same goes for what God said after the first test compared with what God said after the second test.

This is Job's response after the first test. Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshiped, And said, naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

This is Job's response after the second test. Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself with; and he sat down among the ashes.

Do these two responses look similar in any way?

The following verse seems apropos for Job's situation.

Isaiah 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

Then consider God's response after the first test.

Job 2:3 And the Lord said unto Satan, have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holds fast his integrity, although you moved me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Then consider God's response after the second test.

????????????????????????


The results of Job's tests disproved Satan's accusations. After all was taken away, Job still feared God. Job's fear was unbribed: he really did fear God for nothing. Verse 42:7 can also be read in light of this. While Job cursed himself in chapter 3, he refused to curse God but spoke rightly of Him.It is true that Satan's accusations were disproved, for Job didn't curse God with his lips, but it doesn't answer whether Job cursed God with his heart. Remember the reason for the sacrifices for Job's sons, that Job was afraid that they had cursed God in their heart?

Then consider what Job said at the end, that he now knew that no thought could be withheld from God. Job 42:2

Job didn't curse God with his lips in chapter three, but he did say he wanted to be free from his master. Job3:19

rejoice44
Apr 21st 2011, 06:16 PM
DATING THE BOOK OF JOB TO THE 6TH CENTURY


The Jews have handed us the book of Job and say it is perhaps the oldest book of the Bible. This does not hold up under scrutiny. The Jewish aging of this book is not based on a critical examination, but rather emotion. (1) The Jews do not believe their ancestors would have possessed a book in their canon that was basically not Jewish unless it was pre-Mosaic. (2) That God would not have given them a book in their canon that was about Gentiles, when at the same time they were to remain separated from Gentiles. The Gentiles were considered unclean according to the laws of Moses.

Jeremiah is the key to dating the book of Job. When the woes of Lamentations are examined it will be found to be a replica of the woes of Job with only slight variations.

Why is there complicity in the words of Jeremiah, and the words in the book of Job? The words of Jeremiah explain why, and these words are found twice, once in the book of Lamentations, and once in the book of Jeremiah.

The land of Uz is mentioned only three times in the Bible, once Job 1:1 as the home of Job, once in Lamentations 4:21 as the home of the daughter of Edom, and once in Jeremiah 25:20 as the home of kings of mingled people.

In Lamentations 4:22 Jeremiah says the cup of woe, which came to Jerusalem because of sin, will be transferred to the daughter of Edom (who resides in Uz), because of iniquity. If Job is the recipient of this cup, then the book must therefore be from the 6th Century.

In Jeremiah chapter 25 we have the lamentation of Israel when they are taken away into captivity, and then at the end of the seventy years we have the same cup of wrath being passed to the Gentile nations. (Jeremiah 25:10-13, 17, 29.)

Take note that there is another Gentile servant of God in this 6th Century, and it is Nebuchadnezzar, he also was punished for the sin of pride, and then was made to eat grass as a beast of the field. Nebuchadnezzar is called a servant here in Jeremiah 25:9.

You cannot necessarily date someone according to their ancestors. Consider an ancestor of Levi. There are ancestors of Levi even to this day. There is a 3,600 year period in which it could be said that a Levite had lived.



The individuals in the book of Job


Job----------It is noteworthy that there is no mention of his ancestral affiliation.

Eliphaz-----A Temanite. It is highly probable that he is a descendant of Esau.

Bildad------A Shuhite, possibly from Shuah, a son of Abraham sent to the east.

Zophar-----A Naamathite. ???

Elihu--------More attention is given to Elihu’s descendants than anyone else in this book, even to the point of naming his father. This has to be significant. Elihu’s father is a Buzite, indicating that he is probably a descendant of Buz. It is significant that Ezekiel’s father was a “Buzi”, meaning from Buz, and is a Jew. Ezekiel is from the 6th Century. Elihu’s father was of the kindred of Ram. There is only one Ram listed in the Bible, the son of Hezron. It should be noted that Ram is in the lineage of Jesus.

That Elihu is most likely a Jew, and most likely the only Jew in this book, and that more attention is given to his descendants, along with the fact that he starts talking in the first person in Job 32:12, gives credence to the idea that Job is the writer of this book. The oracles of God were entrusted to the Jews. (Romans 3:2)



Groups of individuals mentioned


Sabeans-----From Sheba. They are mentioned in the Bible beginning with the son of Cush, and continuing through the prophesy of Joel. They are only mentioned as Sabeans, when referred to as a troublesome people in the 6th Century.

Chaldeans-- Chaldea, birthplace of Abraham. Of the eighty times the word occurs, three times it refers to Abraham’s birthplace, and seventy seven times it refers to a troublesome people from the 6th Century.



The sequential dating of the Patriarchs found in Ezekiel.


Ezekiel 14:14 Noah, Daniel, and Job.

Ezekiel 14:20 Noah, Daniel, and Job.

Noah and Daniel are in sequence, why not Job as well? Daniel occurs in the 6th Century, and it only reasons that Job must therefore follow Daniel. Or ask yourself, why would Daniel, a 6th Century Patriarch be placed ahead of Job, if Job was the oldest book in the Bible?

webbguy4
Jun 11th 2012, 03:41 AM
i am sorry to see that this thread is idle. i just found it. i have been obsessed with the book of job for months and am anxious to share some dialog on the topic.
my point of view is this: at the beginning God says that job is righteous, upright, fears God and avoids evil.(last two are the biblical definition of wisdom). At the end of the book God says that what Job said was correct. the entire book should be interpreted in the light of this sandwiched endorsement.
some people argue today (just as eliphaz and friends did) that somehow Job deserved or needed the suffering that occurred, even though God himself is quoted as saying he destroyed Job without cause. absurd. My contention is that Job suffered for my sake, just as Jesus did. because the conclusions Job arrived at in his railing at God our specific prophecies of the coming and nature of christ. God chose Job as the vehicle for laying out the plan for reconciling his perfect self with the imperfect world.
the them of the book is: Life is not fair, God is fair omnipotent and loving. resolve the conflict. and that is what Job does.

So why does Job "repent" ? translation problem here. Job does not repent. the same word translated as repent here is translated as " comfort in two other places in the book.
more correctly Job said "I take comfort in dust and ashes".

rejoice44
Jun 11th 2012, 07:41 PM
i am sorry to see that this thread is idle. i just found it. i have been obsessed with the book of job for months and am anxious to share some dialog on the topic.
my point of view is this: at the beginning God says that job is righteous, upright, fears God and avoids evil.(last two are the biblical definition of wisdom). At the end of the book God says that what Job said was correct. the entire book should be interpreted in the light of this sandwiched endorsement.
some people argue today (just as eliphaz and friends did) that somehow Job deserved or needed the suffering that occurred, even though God himself is quoted as saying he destroyed Job without cause. absurd. My contention is that Job suffered for my sake, just as Jesus did. because the conclusions Job arrived at in his railing at God our specific prophecies of the coming and nature of christ. God chose Job as the vehicle for laying out the plan for reconciling his perfect self with the imperfect world.
the them of the book is: Life is not fair, God is fair omnipotent and loving. resolve the conflict. and that is what Job does.

So why does Job "repent" ? translation problem here. Job does not repent. the same word translated as repent here is translated as " comfort in two other places in the book.
more correctly Job said "I take comfort in dust and ashes".

Why does every translation say repent, are they all wrong? What do you do with the word abhor? What do you do with the word vile?

ewq1938
Jun 12th 2012, 07:15 AM
It is true that Satan's accusations were disproved, for Job didn't curse God with his lips, but it doesn't answer whether Job cursed God with his heart.


He did both. Don't think of cursing the way it's defined modernly. All one had to do is speak impiously of another to amount to cursing them according to the word's meaning. Job did plenty of that towards God.

s4b4b47
Jun 12th 2012, 09:09 PM
i havent read through all these posts so appologies if someone already said this and embellished it a bit more than i do, but this brought Job closer to God, which is what God wants with all of us.

rejoice44
Jun 12th 2012, 09:17 PM
i havent read through all these posts so appologies if someone already said this and embellished it a bit more than i do, but this brought Job closer to God, which is what God wants with all of us.


Yes God wants us all to be closer to God, but for Job it was a matter of salvation.

rejoice44
Jun 12th 2012, 09:18 PM
He did both. Don't think of cursing the way it's defined modernly. All one had to do is speak impiously of another to amount to cursing them according to the word's meaning. Job did plenty of that towards God.

With a righteous attitude also.

ewq1938
Jun 12th 2012, 11:23 PM
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.


What does it mean to curse someone in the OT hebrew?


1288

01288 barak {baw-rak'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 285; v

AV - bless 302, salute 5, curse 4, blaspheme 2, blessing 2, praised 2,
kneel down 2, congratulate 1, kneel 1, make to kneel 1, misc 8; 330

1) to bless, kneel
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to kneel
1a2) to bless
1b) (Niphal) to be blessed, bless oneself
1c) (Piel) to bless
1d) (Pual) to be blessed, be adored
1e) (Hiphil) to cause to kneel
1f) (Hithpael) to bless oneself
2) (TWOT) to praise, salute, curse



Now, the tense of the verb "curse" in this verse is Piel:

1c) (Piel) to bless

And thus the meaning of the verb is to "bless".

Piel usually expresses an "intensive" or "intentional" action as well as it also implies a repeated action meaning it is usually done more than once. In this case someone will “bless” God more than once.


OT:1288
barak (baw-rak'); a primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason):


Lexicon:

"It is properly used of persons, and is transferred to curses and impious words against God." This specific definition for the word in question is found in Job 1:5, 1:11 and Job 2:5.



Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

So what Satan literally said was:

"he will speak impious words against you"


American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
im•pi•ous (ĭm'pē-əs, ĭm-pī'-) Pronunciation Key
adj.
1. Lacking reverence; not pious.
2. Lacking due respect or dutifulness: impious toward one's parents.



In today's terms it would mean Job spoke in disrespect to God, and about God.

rejoice44
Jun 13th 2012, 02:01 AM
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.


What does it mean to curse someone in the OT hebrew?


1288

01288 barak {baw-rak'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 285; v

AV - bless 302, salute 5, curse 4, blaspheme 2, blessing 2, praised 2,
kneel down 2, congratulate 1, kneel 1, make to kneel 1, misc 8; 330

1) to bless, kneel
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to kneel
1a2) to bless
1b) (Niphal) to be blessed, bless oneself
1c) (Piel) to bless
1d) (Pual) to be blessed, be adored
1e) (Hiphil) to cause to kneel
1f) (Hithpael) to bless oneself
2) (TWOT) to praise, salute, curse



Now, the tense of the verb "curse" in this verse is Piel:

1c) (Piel) to bless

And thus the meaning of the verb is to "bless".

Piel usually expresses an "intensive" or "intentional" action as well as it also implies a repeated action meaning it is usually done more than once. In this case someone will “bless” God more than once.


OT:1288
barak (baw-rak'); a primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason):


Lexicon:

"It is properly used of persons, and is transferred to curses and impious words against God." This specific definition for the word in question is found in Job 1:5, 1:11 and Job 2:5.



Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

So what Satan literally said was:

"he will speak impious words against you"


American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
im•pi•ous (ĭm'pē-əs, ĭm-pī'-) Pronunciation Key
adj.
1. Lacking reverence; not pious.
2. Lacking due respect or dutifulness: impious toward one's parents.



In today's terms it would mean Job spoke in disrespect to God, and about God.

Of the 330 times the Hebrew word "barak" is used, only four times is it translated curse, and that is found only in the book of Job. One of those four times the word "lo", meaning "not" is found in conjunction with "barak", meaning "bless not".

All English translations agree that "barak" means curse in Job 1:11. The opposite of bless is to curse, to not bless would have the meaning of curse.

ewq1938
Jun 13th 2012, 02:04 AM
Of the 330 times the Hebrew word "barak" is used, only four times is it translated curse, and that is found only in the book of Job. One of those four times the word "lo", meaning "not" is found in conjunction with "barak", meaning "bless not".

All English translations agree that "barak" means curse in Job 1:11. The opposite of bless is to curse, to not bless would have the meaning of curse.

Yes usually it means a good blessing but sometimes by euphemism it means to curse ie: to speak poorly about etc etc.

Reynolds357
Jun 13th 2012, 02:07 AM
I don't think He was proving it to Satan. I think he was proving it to the angles.


Ephesians 3:7-13 ( KJV )
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
God did not need to prove anything to the angels.

rejoice44
Jun 13th 2012, 11:56 AM
In post 123 I stated Job was most likely the writer of Job, and I meant to say Elihu was most likely the writer of Job.

webbguy4
Jun 16th 2012, 10:45 PM
there is at least one translation where the word "repent" is not used. i forget which one. sorry i am too tired right now to look for it. may be the jerusalem bible. i am not trained in ancient hebrew myself, i am continuing to research this issue.

do you have a comment on my point of view more generally, that is that Job received God's endorsement coming and going and of course God did unequivically state that Eliphaz and friends were wrong, so why do so many commentator continue to endorse what they said?

ewq1938
Jun 16th 2012, 10:50 PM
there is at least one translation where the word "repent" is not used.

He repented. This is clear after reading all the horrible things he said about God, then God's confrontation of him and then this:

Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Job 42:4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

It's only natural that after Job realizes that he has spoken things he did not understand that he then repents:

Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Bandit
Jun 17th 2012, 02:04 AM
He repented. This is clear after reading all the horrible things he said about God, then God's confrontation of him and then this:
...

Just asking, but what are "all the horrible things he [Job] said about God".

ewq1938
Jun 17th 2012, 03:14 AM
Just asking, but what are "all the horrible things he [Job] said about God".

Here is a partial work on it.

Job 1:19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Job is holding up very well after some very horrible things! Yet, this does give us a slight hint about what might take place eventually within this story.

Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Again, very terrible events take place and even his wife thinks he should curse God! But Job does not! Job has not “sinned with his lips”….yet.


Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

Now we see that Job is having trouble dealing with what he has been through. He will continue through the rest of the chapter speaking very ill of his life and fortune.

After his friend tries to console him he begins again:


Job 6:2 Oh that my grief were throughly weighed, and my calamity laid in the balances together!
Job 6:3 For now it would be heavier than the sand of the sea: therefore my words are swallowed up.
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.


Job charges God with symbolically attacking him with poisoned arrows, and unnamed terrors that God has at his disposal. Is this really what God does to those he loves and considers righteous? Is Job correct that God is doing this and is responsible for his misfortunes?


Job 6:5 Doth the wild ass bray when he hath grass? or loweth the ox over his fodder?
Job 6:6 Can that which is unsavoury be eaten without salt? or is there any taste in the white of an egg?
Job 6:7 The things that my soul refused to touch are as my sorrowful meat.
Job 6:8 Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for!
Job 6:9 Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
Job 6:11 What is my strength, that I should hope? and what is mine end, that I should prolong my life?
Job 6:12 Is my strength the strength of stones? or is my flesh of brass?
Job 6:13 Is not my help in me? and is wisdom driven quite from me?
Job 6:14 To him that is afflicted pity should be shewed from his friend; but he forsaketh the fear of the Almighty.
Job 6:15 My brethren have dealt deceitfully as a brook, and as the stream of brooks they pass away;
Job 6:16 Which are blackish by reason of the ice, and wherein the snow is hid:
Job 6:17 What time they wax warm, they vanish: when it is hot, they are consumed out of their place.
Job 6:18 The paths of their way are turned aside; they go to nothing, and perish.
Job 6:19 The troops of Tema looked, the companies of Sheba waited for them.
Job 6:20 They were confounded because they had hoped; they came thither, and were ashamed.
Job 6:21 For now ye are nothing; ye see my casting down, and are afraid.
Job 6:22 Did I say, Bring unto me? or, Give a reward for me of your substance?
Job 6:23 Or, Deliver me from the enemy's hand? or, Redeem me from the hand of the mighty?
Job 6:24 Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.

Little does Job know that he shall eventually be scolded and taught by God himself, and he would come to understand the errors of his tongue. This takes place near the end of the book for several chapters but is awhile yet in the future. Job continues:


Job 6:25 How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?
Job 6:26 Do ye imagine to reprove words, and the speeches of one that is desperate, which are as wind?
Job 6:27 Yea, ye overwhelm the fatherless, and ye dig a pit for your friend.
Job 6:28 Now therefore be content, look upon me; for it is evident unto you if I lie.
Job 6:29 Return, I pray you, let it not be iniquity; yea, return again, my righteousness is in it.
Job 6:30 Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?

Pride is deceptive. It assures you that you are right, even when you are not. Job cannot yet see how his tongue is full of iniquity and untruth about God but he will be shown the truth.





Job speaks:

Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.


Job is not going to be quiet about the injustice he feels God is forcing upon him! He will speak out openly and loudly!


Job 7:12 Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?
Job 7:13 When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint;
Job 7:14 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:


“When I go to bed I should be allowed a safe and pleasant time but, no, God is there to torture me in my sleep!”


Job 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.

“I’d rather be strangled to death than live like this!”


Job 7:16 I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.
Job 7:17 What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
Job 7:18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
Job 7:20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

"What makes you so concerned about us humans? Why do you test us from sunrise to sunset? Won't you look away just long enough for me to swallow? Why do you watch us so closely?"


Job later says:




Job 9:13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.
Job 9:14 How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?
Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.
Job 9:16 If I had called, and he had answered me; yet would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.
Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

“If God came into court when I called him, he would not hear my case in fact he would strike me with a storm and increase my injuries for no reason at all!”




Job 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.
Job 9:19 If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead?
Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
Job 9:21 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.


“Even if I were innocent, God would prove me wrong. I am not guilty, but I no longer care what happens to me.”






Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

“God destroys the innocent along with the guilty.”

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.
Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

“When a good person dies a sudden death, God sits back and laughs.
And who else but God blindfolds the judges, then lets the wicked take over the earth? “


WOAH! Verse 23 is quite a statement by Job! That if a man should die accidentally while being punished, that God would laugh at the trial of an innocent man. This means that Job feels God is unjust and cruel!



Job 9:25 Now my days are swifter than a post: they flee away, they see no good.
Job 9:26 They are passed away as the swift ships: as the eagle that hasteth to the prey.
Job 9:27 If I say, I will forget my complaint, I will leave off my heaviness, and comfort myself:
Job 9:28 I am afraid of all my sorrows, I know that thou wilt not hold me innocent.
Job 9:29 If I be wicked, why then labour I in vain?
Job 9:30 If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean;
Job 9:31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.


“Even if I washed myself with the strongest soap, God would throw me into a pit of stinking slime, leaving me disgusting to my clothes. “



Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:
Job 9:35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

“Can someone snatch away the stick God carries to frighten me? Then I could speak up without fear of him, but for now, I cannot speak. “



Job 10:1 My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.


Again, he repeats his statement in chapter 7. He will not be silent about how he feels about what he thinks God is doing to him.


Job 10:2 I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; shew me wherefore thou contendest with me.
Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?


“Why do you take such delight in hating your children, and in blessing sinners?”



Job 10:4 Hast thou eyes of flesh? or seest thou as man seeth?
Job 10:5 Are thy days as the days of man? are thy years as man's days,
Job 10:6 That thou enquirest after mine iniquity, and searchest after my sin?


“Do you look at things the way we humans do? Is your life as short as ours? Is that why you are so quick to find fault with me?”



Ouch! Job is really digging himself a deep hole. Here he actually questions Gods right to judge man because God is not flesh and it’s implied that therefore God can’t understand what its like to live in the flesh. Yet, God can understand us, and could even before Christ was born flesh. God has the right to judge flesh man, and always has.



Job 10:7 Thou knowest that I am not wicked; and there is none that can deliver out of thine hand.
Job 10:8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.

"You know I am innocent, but who can defend me against you? Will you now destroy someone you created?"


Job 10:9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?
Job 10:10 Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese?
Job 10:11 Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.
Job 10:12 Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.
Job 10:13 And these things hast thou hid in thine heart: I know that this is with thee.
Job 10:14 If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.
Job 10:15 If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction;

“Guilty or innocent, I am condemned and ashamed because of my troubles.”


Job 10:16 For it increaseth. Thou huntest me as a fierce lion: and again thou shewest thyself marvellous upon me.
Job 10:17 Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, and increasest thine indignation upon me; changes and war are against me.


“No matter how hard I try, you keep hunting me down like a powerful lion. You never stop accusing me; you become furious and attack over and over again.”



Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
Job 10:19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.
Job 10:20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
Job 10:21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
Job 10:22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.


“Surely I will go to hell, a land of darkness and despair, after I die”

Next, his friend gives him some sound advice but Job dismisses it and says:


Job 12:1 And Job answered and said,
Job 12:2 No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.
Job 12:3 But I have understanding as well as you; I am not inferior to you: yea, who knoweth not such things as these?

“You think you are so great, with all the answers. But I know as much as you do, and so does everyone else”



Job 13:1 Lo, mine eye hath seen all this, mine ear hath heard and understood it.
Job 13:2 What ye know, the same do I know also: I am not inferior unto you.


“I know and understand every bit of this. None of you are smarter than I am; there's nothing you know that I don't.”


Then Job addresses God:


Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee.
Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid.
Job 13:22 Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.
Job 13:23 How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.


“I ask only two things of you, my God, and I will no longer hide from you. Stop punishing and terrifying me! Then speak, and I will reply; or else let me speak, and you reply. Please point out my sins, so I will know them.”


Job 13:24 Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and holdest me for thine enemy?
Job 13:25 Wilt thou break a leaf driven to and fro? and wilt thou pursue the dry stubble?
Job 13:26 For thou writest bitter things against me, and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth.


“Why have you turned your back and count me your enemy? Do you really enjoy frightening a fallen leaf? Why do you accuse me of horrible crimes and make me pay for sins I did in my youth?”


Job 13:27 Thou puttest my feet also in the stocks, and lookest narrowly unto all my paths; thou settest a print upon the heels of my feet.
Job 13:28 And he, as a rotten thing, consumeth, as a garment that is moth eaten.


If only Job could have known that it was Satan, not God, that persecuted him…

Job continues his verbal assault upon God:


Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
Job 14:2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
Job 14:3 And dost thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?

“Life is short and sorrowful for every living soul. We are flowers that fade and shadows that vanish. And so, I ask you, God, why pick on me?”


Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Job 14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Job 14:6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.
Job 14:7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

“Why don't you leave us alone and let us find some happiness while we toil and labor? When a tree is chopped down, there is always the hope that it will sprout again. Its roots and stump may rot, but at the touch of water, fresh twigs shoot up. Humans are different-- we die, and that's the end.”



Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!


“Please hide me, God, deep in the ground-- and when you are angry no more, remember to rescue me.”



Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job 14:16 For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?
Job 14:17 My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.
Job 14:18 And surely the mountain falling cometh to nought, and the rock is removed out of his place.
Job 14:19 The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man.


“In the world, mountains tumble, and rocks crumble; streams wear away stones and wash away soil. And you destroy our hopes!”

Bandit
Jun 17th 2012, 06:40 PM
Just asking, but what are "all the horrible things he [Job] said about God".


Here is a partial work on it.

Job 1...
Job is holding up very well after some very horrible things! Yet, this does give us a slight hint about what might take place eventually within this story.

Job 2...
Again, very terrible events take place and even his wife thinks he should curse God! But Job does not! Job has not “sinned with his lips”….yet.


Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

Now we see that Job is having trouble dealing with what he has been through. He will continue through the rest of the chapter speaking very ill of his life and fortune.

Job 6...
Job charges God with symbolically attacking him with poisoned arrows, and unnamed terrors that God has at his disposal. Is this really what God does to those he loves and considers righteous? Is Job correct that God is doing this and is responsible for his misfortunes?
...

You gave a very long post, but I will cut it short here, for now.

Concerning your last comment about chapter 6, does not God Himself say to satan in chapter 2:3,

"... he [Job] still holds to his integrity, although you [satan] incited Me against him"?

So does not God Himself assume some level of responsibility for what happened to Job? And as far as these arrows being symbolic, these symbolic arrows killed most of Job's family and left him in extreme pain. It is obvious to all in the story (including God Himself) that God had a hand in what happened to Job. Where they differ is why and what should be done next. So Job's attribution of these events to God is not entirely wrong - for God did allow these events to happen.

ewq1938
Jun 17th 2012, 10:44 PM
You gave a very long post, but I will cut it short here, for now.

Concerning your last comment about chapter 6, does not God Himself say to satan in chapter 2:3,

"... he [Job] still holds to his integrity, although you [satan] incited Me against him"?

So does not God Himself assume some level of responsibility for what happened to Job?


Some sure but taking that too far will get us in the same trouble it got Job:

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?



It is obvious to all in the story (including God Himself) that God had a hand in what happened to Job. Where they differ is why and what should be done next. So Job's attribution of these events to God is not entirely wrong - for God did allow these events to happen.

God allowed them but saying things like God helps the wicked and condemns the innocent is incorrect. Job states a great deal of unfair, wrong and scathing accusations towards God. This is usually news to people because they tend to skip over all the "boring" chapters of Job where Job says things terrible things.

Simply put, the notion that Job was perfect and remained that way the entire time through his ordeal is painfully incorrect. He was a good guy, went through very bad things...blamed and judged God and after being confronted, admitted his wrongs and repented and was blessed. It's a life lesson we all can learn from. Repent when you are wrong, God will forgive and bless you.

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 03:22 AM
God stated that what job said about God was correct.

Job said he said "things too wonderful for him to understand". Job was indeed talking over his own head. when Job questioned how could God judge him when God does not "see as a man sees". When Job prayed for intercessor and when Job stated "I know that my redeemer lives and will stand upon the earth. Job said things that were wonderful, too wonderful for him too understand, but not incorrect

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 03:34 AM
I consider the first response of Eliphaz the temanite.

his name and place of origin indicate this was a wise learned man, most likely older than
Job

Consider that this man has lived for years in Job's shadow. The disasters that have fallen on Job give Eliphaz the first opportunity of his life to turn the tables on Job. Typical of the irony of so much of this book eliphaz's speech includes the warnings about envy, yet envy is the force that drives him. To me the dream of Eliphaz is obviously a visitation from Satan designed to feed the envy of eliphaz.

ewq1938
Jun 18th 2012, 03:34 AM
God stated that what job said about God was correct.

Only his most recent statements. We can't apply that back to all the bad things which God confronted and corrected Job about.


Job said he said "things too wonderful for him to understand". Job was indeed talking over his own head. when Job questioned how could God judge him when God does not "see as a man sees".

One of many examples of Job speaking incorrectly about God.



When Job prayed for intercessor and when Job stated "I know that my redeemer lives and will stand upon the earth. Job said things that were wonderful, too wonderful for him too understand, but not incorrect

Not everything he said was incorrect but many things were...many of which I've quoted and posted so if you deny Job spoke incorrectly then go to that post and read what Job said and comment on each thing please.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/223768-The-Book-of-Job-explain?p=2859728#post2859728

ewq1938
Jun 18th 2012, 03:38 AM
I consider the first response of Eliphaz the temanite.

his name and place of origin indicate this was a wise learned man, most likely older than
Job

Most likely older? Exactly what evidence tells you his or Job's age?

I'll tell you something about his name:

Job 42:9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.


464

0464 'Eliyphaz {el-ee-faz'}

from 0410 and 06337;; n pr m

AV - Eliphaz 15; 15

Eliphaz = "my God is (fine) gold"
1) Esau's son, father of Teman
2) the Temanite friend of Job


H464
?????
'e?li^yphaz
el-ee-faz'
From H410 and H6337; God of gold; Eliphaz, the name of one of Job’s friends, and of a son of Esau: - Eliphaz.


This mans name means his God is Gold, not exactly a great name to have, nor is being a descendant of Esau very positive.

rejoice44
Jun 18th 2012, 02:35 PM
You gave a very long post, but I will cut it short here, for now.

Concerning your last comment about chapter 6, does not God Himself say to satan in chapter 2:3,

"... he [Job] still holds to his integrity, although you [satan] incited Me against him"?

So does not God Himself assume some level of responsibility for what happened to Job? And as far as these arrows being symbolic, these symbolic arrows killed most of Job's family and left him in extreme pain. It is obvious to all in the story (including God Himself) that God had a hand in what happened to Job. Where they differ is why and what should be done next. So Job's attribution of these events to God is not entirely wrong - for God did allow these events to happen.

There are so many false premises assumed in the book of Job. There are only three sentences where God speaks in a positive light about Job, and they are taken out of context. God projects Job in a negative light for 127 verses, and when you consider that Elihu was speaking in God's stead, you have another six chapters that throw a bad light on Job.

Lets consider what God said that was positive about Job.

1. Job 1:8 "Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

What does this verse mean exactly in light of Romans 5:12? "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

I read it as Job being a good, trustworthy hired servant.

2. Job 2:3 "Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? --------------and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God repeats what God said the first time he spoke of Job, word for word. Consider the second part of that verse, "and still he holdeth fast his integrity,"

After being tried the first time Job fell down, worships, and blesses God. Job held his integrity.

Now consider the third part of that verse, "although thou movedest me against him, to destroy him without cause."

What was Satan's cause? That Job would curse God to his face. The meaning of "curse God to his face" is to curse God with your lips, in lieu of cursing God with your heart, as Job had stated about his sons in Job 1:5.

Satan had a cause for wanting Job to curse God, and that would have been Job's soul. Isn't everything about a man's soul? Satan's cause was unjustified because Job did not curse God with his lips. But what about God's cause for allowing it? Satan had a cause for what he did, and God had a cause for what God did, but they were not the same cause. This was a battle for the soul of Job.

Job had a problem, and that problem was pride. Job was not righteous enough to save his own soul, for no one is. God addresses Job's problem of pride in chapter forty one. God says to Job, "Will he make a covenant with thee?(Satan) Will thou take him for a servant forever?(Satan) Proof that it is Satan God is speaking of is found in the last verse of chapter forty one, when God says, "He beholdeth all high things Remember that it was Satan in chapter one that was beholding the meeting of God with his sons.) he is the king over all the children of pride."(Who else other than Satan is king over the children of pride?)

Isaiah 27:1 we are told that leviathan is a crooked serpent, and a dragon that will be punished at the end of days. We find that same serpent in Genesis chapter three, and that same serpent and dragon in Revelation 12:9, where he is called Satan.

Was God fair, or righteous, in taking Job's children? Consider that Job thought that his children had cursed God in their hearts, and then consider that they were eating and drinking, just as in the days of Noe, when every evil person was killed.

When Job took the second test he did not pass it. He did not prostrate himself before God, nor did he worship God. And what was spoken of Job by God after the second test? Nothing!

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 18th 2012, 03:53 PM
You gave a very long post, but I will cut it short here, for now.

Concerning your last comment about chapter 6, does not God Himself say to satan in chapter 2:3,

"... he [Job] still holds to his integrity, although you [satan] incited Me against him"?

So does not God Himself assume some level of responsibility for what happened to Job? And as far as these arrows being symbolic, these symbolic arrows killed most of Job's family and left him in extreme pain. It is obvious to all in the story (including God Himself) that God had a hand in what happened to Job. Where they differ is why and what should be done next. So Job's attribution of these events to God is not entirely wrong - for God did allow these events to happen.

I dont want to interrupt the conversation between anyone, I just wanted to point out that this does make sense to me. God allowed Satan to do things to Job, so yes, God was responsible for the removal/partial removal of His protection from Job and his family.
Anyway, I was wondering about this, just this morning, and Im glad to have my question answered.
Will be checking in further.

Please Continue. :rolleyes:


I am adding this...

No matter what, Job's original understanding of God through his own knowledge was shown to be wanting. I think this does represent pride. My question this morning concerning Job was geared for today.
What does one do when the only deliverence for a person can come from Gods decision to no longer allow darkness to overcome him? One can put on spiritual armor, have others pray for them, believe in faith for deliverance, but God still decides? What is different from the O.T. Job and todays Christian who has The Holy Spirit of God living inside of him?
So yes still mulling over this....

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 04:10 PM
God said to Eliphaz "you have not spoken of me what is right as my servant Job has". this says to me God was talking about the whole length of the arguments between Job and friends.

Job sacrificed on behalf of his children saying "perhaps they have cursed God in their hearts" which to me means Job was happy and pleased with his children and was only concerned with their secret thoughts because they showed no outward sign of unrighteousness. And why would you here endorse the arguments that Job's children deserved to die?

So many claim that Job needed to learn some kind of lesson from God , that's why his children died, his wife left and his body mutilated? really? you think that makes life fair? Is that what you say when you visit people who are grieving or sick? that you deserved this? Do you need me to site chapter and verse where Jesus said that is ....(restrain from vulgarity) not true?

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 04:13 PM
God had a plan more clever than the satan's. to lay out in no uncertain terms the unfairness of life before the best man on earth and allow that man to lay out the plan whereby God could be reconciled with a fallen world

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 04:34 PM
eliphaz likely older than Job :

chapter 15 vs7 thru 10.

"the gray haired are on our side"

and the city of teman is referred to in the bible a couple of times as being a place renown for wisdom and learing

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 04:43 PM
the reason the satan wanted to test Job and the reason God chose Job to be tested is because he was the best man on earth at the time. the satan was quite specific in saying Job only served God for the benefits God gave him. What I see going on here is a test of the first commandment before Moses even brought it down from the mountain.
the satan was saying there was no love for God, that love was irrelevent. The best man on earth God gave over to the satan to prove this wasn't true.

As for Job's laments being evidence for speaking evil about God... Are you really going to claim that life is fair? that bad things don't happen to people that don't deserve them?
have you read any of the book of lamentations?, any of the psalms of lament?

rejoice44
Jun 18th 2012, 05:05 PM
Isn't the whole book of Job about Job's salvation? About whether Job's soul would belong to Satan, or God?

The question of how one was saved in the Old Testament comes into play. For my part I would say it was the same in the Old Testament as it is in the New Testament. We all have to put on God's righteousness. We have to be clothed in God's righteousness. After Job repented he lived another full life without comment, other than his daughters where the most beautiful in the land.

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 06:04 PM
No, the book of Job is not about Job's salvation, it is about yours and mine and the whole of human kind.

Life is not fair (why do I have to keep repeating the obvious) God is fair, omnipotent and loving. Resolving this contradiction is what the book of Job is about.

"without comment" hmmm, i think the naming of Job's daughters while passing on his sons and giving them an inheritance in defiance of the prevalent custom is a comment. saying that he died "full of years" ie: content is a comment

rejoice44
Jun 18th 2012, 06:14 PM
[QUOTE=webbguy4;2860167]No, the book of Job is not about Job's salvation, it is about yours and mine and the whole of human kind.

It is about yours and my salvation only as it relates to Job's.


Life is not fair (why do I have to keep repeating the obvious) God is fair, omnipotent and loving. Resolving this contradiction is what the book of Job is about.

To say life is unfair is to say God is unjust.


"without comment" hmmm, i think the naming of Job's daughters while passing on his sons and giving them an inheritance in defiance of the prevalent custom is a comment. saying that he died "full of years" ie: content is a comment.

True, and this type of examination is needed throughout the whole book of Job.

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 06:18 PM
over and over again as I review this thread I read the same arguments used by Eliphaz and friends about how and why Job deserved his trials. This is why you read about christians today saying ludicrous things about New Orleans or Japan or any victims of disaster that befall people on this world. Even if New Orleans was punished by God as a christian it is NOT your job to say it. Your job is be the the friend that Job described but never had, someone to stand with the afflicted, plead on their behalf and beg God's mercy. Do not cling to the failed notions, condemned by God in the book of Job and by Jesus in his teachings that people only suffer what they deserve.
Eliphaz was a spokesman for envy, not God.

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 06:25 PM
"to say that life is unfair is to say God is unjust"

sigh, my fingers just got very tired at the idea of posting all the ways life is not fair. good people, faithful christians are being slaughtered almost every day in Sudan. Can you tell them life is fair?

in schools everyday, sweet gentle children whose only crime is having some form of social ineptitude that makes them different are tortured mercilessly by their classmates. Can you tell them life is fair?

my aunt, run down by an old man who had no business being behind the wheel of a car. Shall I tell her children that life is fair?

rejoice44
Jun 18th 2012, 06:25 PM
over and over again as I review this thread I read the same arguments used by Eliphaz and friends about how and why Job deserved his trials. This is why you read about christians today saying ludicrous things about New Orleans or Japan or any victims of disaster that befall people on this world. Even if New Orleans was punished by God as a christian it is NOT your job to say it. Your job is be the the friend that Job described but never had, someone to stand with the afflicted, plead on their behalf and beg God's mercy. Do not cling to the failed notions, condemned by God in the book of Job and by Jesus in his teachings that people only suffer what they deserve.
Eliphaz was a spokesman for envy, not God.

Does mankind deserve to die?

rejoice44
Jun 18th 2012, 06:35 PM
"to say that life is unfair is to say God is unjust"

sigh, my fingers just got very tired at the idea of posting all the ways life is not fair. good people, faithful christians are being slaughtered almost every day in Sudan. Can you tell them life is fair?

in schools everyday, sweet gentle children whose only crime is having some form of social ineptitude that makes them different are tortured mercilessly by their classmates. Can you tell them life is fair?

my aunt, run down by an old man who had no business being behind the wheel of a car. Shall I tell her children that life is fair?

You live in a cursed world, condemned by the disobedience of one man. Death rules because of disobedience. God made a way of escape. If your hope is in this world alone, then your life is hopeless. The flesh of all men is condemned, it is the spirit that is quickened and made alive. We need not fear death of the flesh, we only need to fear the death of both body and soul.

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 06:38 PM
"does mankind deserve to die?"

obviously you can say we are all corrupt and vile before the perfect judgement of God, so yes death is what we deserve. yet we are no more than what we were born to be. we are created by God as we are. If we are not fit to be his it is within his right to say we are unworthy and he can withdraw the clay he formed us from.

but you know what, death is not the worse that can happen to you , not by a long shot. You cannot reasonably claim that just because we are born with inherit flaws we deserve the hellish torments the world has to offer.

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 06:44 PM
you didn't address any of my questions

Do you tell someone suffering grief, like the orphaned children who escaped as their village was slaughtered by moslems or my aunt's children whose mother was killed in a horrible seemingly meaning less death that "life is fair".

rejoice44
Jun 18th 2012, 06:54 PM
"does mankind deserve to die?"

obviously you can say we are all corrupt and vile before the perfect judgement of God, so yes death is what we deserve. yet we are no more than what we were born to be. we are created by God as we are. If we are not fit to be his it is within his right to say we are unworthy and he can withdraw the clay he formed us from.

but you know what, death is not the worse that can happen to you , not by a long shot. You cannot reasonably claim that just because we are born with inherit flaws we deserve the hellish torments the world has to offer.

Jesus Christ will give us the power to overcome any obstacle. Do you believe that? I can think of a fellow born without arms or legs who would testify to that, or a lady confined to a wheelchair since her eighteenth birthday that would also testify. I can think of a fellow named Stephen who was stoned to death, or a man who was spit on, beaten, and crucified.

rejoice44
Jun 18th 2012, 06:57 PM
you didn't address any of my questions

Do you tell someone suffering grief, like the orphaned children who escaped as their village was slaughtered by moslems or my aunt's children whose mother was killed in a horrible seemingly meaning less death that "life is fair".

No life isn't fair, but there is a way of escape.

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 07:11 PM
did you tell the young lady put in a wheelchair at a young age that life is fair? (please don't , rhetorical question)

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 07:28 PM
you did say "that to say life is unfair is to say God is unjust" that's not a passing comment , it's the whole point. defend your comment. hmmm or maybe not. because i don't really think you can.

Job was a good guy, his friends said so (until they got angry), even God said so, yet the worse things possible happened to him. Job didn't deserve what happened, his wife didn't deserve what happened, his children didn't deserve what happened. Still God used all that unhappiness to create something better.

rejoice44
Jun 18th 2012, 07:36 PM
did you tell the young lady put in a wheelchair at a young age that life is fair? (please don't , rhetorical question)

The lady was Joni Erikson, and no she didn't think it was fair at the time. You would have to ask her yourself what she thinks today.

rejoice44
Jun 18th 2012, 07:53 PM
[QUOTE=webbguy4;2860216]you did say "that to say life is unfair is to say God is unjust" that's not a passing comment , it's the whole point. defend your comment. hmmm or maybe not. because i don't really think you can.

Life isn't fair from man's perspective, and yet it is from God's. If we are in Christ, it is fair, if we are not in Christ, then it is our fault that life seems unfair.


Job was a good guy, his friends said so (until they got angry), even God said so, yet the worse things possible happened to him. Job didn't deserve what happened, his wife didn't deserve what happened, his children didn't deserve what happened. Still God used all that unhappiness to create something better.

What if Job was on his way to the pit, and God used this to bring him back. Listen carefully to the words of Elihu.

Job 33:16-24 The he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction. That he may withdraw man from his purpose and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword. He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain. So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. His flesh is consummed away that it cannot be seen and his bones that were not seen stick out. Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers. If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness. Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

Job was headed for the pit.

His sons obviously died because they cursed God in their hearts. Job 1:5

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 08:05 PM
Job 1:5 includes the word "perhaps", Job was just being cautious out of love for his children. to claim that Job's children deserved their fate is endorsing the words of Eliphaz and friends. Words that were specifically condemned by God.

To site Elihu as a spokesman for God is silly. Elihu doesn't even rate a comment at the conclusion, he's a presumptuous blowhard.

To ask Joni what she thinks today is a deliberate obfuscation of the point of my rhetorical question, let me hit you over the head with it. The point is telling her life is fair would be insensitive and cruel.

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 08:17 PM
"Job was headed for the pit"???

Job started out this story as a point of pride for God. God took obvious pleasure in the righteousness and wisdom of Job.

interesting and ironic that you have taken to referring to Jesus as the way out of the contradictions I present about the unfairness of life. You are actually getting close to the real point of the book. Job layed out the map for the reason and the means of Gods incarnation in christ.

Job was right , God said so. Eliphaz and friends were wrong, God said so. get used to it

rejoice44
Jun 18th 2012, 08:25 PM
Job 1:5 includes the word "perhaps", Job was just being cautious out of love for his children. to claim that Job's children deserved their fate is endorsing the words of Eliphaz and friends. Words that were specifically condemned by God.

Your right, it doesn't state unequivocally that they cursed God in their hearts, but the picture of them eating and drinking gives us a picture of those that were drowned in the flood.


To site Elihu as a spokesman for God is silly. Elihu doesn't even rate a comment at the conclusion, he's a presumptuous blowhard.

Have you really thought this out? Six whole chapters of the book of Job are dedicated to his words. He is probably the only Jew in this book. There are those that say he is the writer of the book. His words are in line with God's words.


To ask Joni what she thinks today is a deliberate obfuscation of the point of my rhetorical question, let me hit you over the head with it. The point is telling her life is fair would be insensitive and cruel.

Her life is more fuller than the majority of us. What is life, if it is not loving, hoping, and joy? Surely Joni Ericson has more crowns laid up for herself than many of us put together.

webbguy4
Jun 18th 2012, 09:22 PM
Job's kids died because they liked to party? what a load, once again you might just as well be quoting from the words of the false friends.

If you have ever been part of a large family you might notice that children that remain friends is a huge source of joy to parents. and legitimately so. the first recorded miracle of our lord is making wine for a party. Don't embarrass yourself by being such a blue nosed pharisee

once again you continue in obtuse obfuscation regards Joni, the point is not what she thinks about the quality of her life. the point is you, the point is if you tell her or anyone in dire straights "life is fair" you're insentive and cruel and you will be stuck standing nest to Eliphaz and friends waiting for someone who you have offended to forgive you so God will show you mercy.

rejoice44
Jun 18th 2012, 11:35 PM
Job's kids died because they liked to party? what a load, once again you might just as well be quoting from the words of the false friends.

Not because they liked to party, but because they desired the things of the flesh more than the things of God. Bildad said, "Does God pervert judgment? or does the Almighty pervert justice? If thy children have sinned against him, and he have cast them away for their transgressions".(Job 8:3-4) When Bildad is done speaking Job replys with these words, "I know it is of a truth: but how should man be just with God?" You can say Job was not speaking directly in relation to Bildad's words about his children, but yet Job does not deny the accusation.


If you have ever been part of a large family you might notice that children that remain friends is a huge source of joy to parents. and legitimately so. the first recorded miracle of our lord is making wine for a party. Don't embarrass yourself by being such a blue nosed pharisee

What you say is true. I just see a parallel to the days of Noe as expressed in Matthew chapter twenty four. The only thing we know about Job's children was the fact that they were feasting, and Job feared they might have cursed God.


once again you continue in obtuse obfuscation regards Joni, the point is not what she thinks about the quality of her life. the point is you, the point is if you tell her or anyone in dire straights "life is fair" you're insentive and cruel and you will be stuck standing nest to Eliphaz and friends waiting for someone who you have offended to forgive you so God will show you mercy.

God is fair, righteous, and good, whatever God does.

Since you refer to the three friends in a very negative light can you present verses where they said something that was in error?

ewq1938
Jun 19th 2012, 12:33 AM
Isn't the whole book of Job about Job's salvation? About whether Job's soul would belong to Satan, or God?

No. Most of the book of Job is about what a godly man will do when he suffers great persecution and punishment from an unseen foe. Who will he blame? How will he act?

Not surprisingly a man's instinct is to blame God and act poorly because he doesn't understand why he is suffering. It just proves what most of us already know; man will fail and has failed God but humbling ourselves and repenting is the ONLY way to make up for our poor behavior in life. God choose "the best man" in Job supposedly, and he failed...so will or have all of us. We must repent and humble ourselves. We are not great, not perfect and not worthy of God's grace.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 12:59 AM
No. Most of the book of Job is about what a godly man will do when he suffers great persecution and punishment from an unseen foe. Who will he blame? How will he act?

A man that has no personal relationship with God will act as Job did. One that has a personal relationship with God will act as Stephen did.


Not surprisingly a man's instinct is to blame God and act poorly because he doesn't understand why he is suffering. It just proves what most of us already know; man will fail and has failed God but humbling ourselves and repenting is the ONLY way to make up for our poor behavior in life. God choose "the best man" in Job supposedly, and he failed...so will or have all of us. We must repent and humble ourselves. We are not great, not perfect and not worthy of God's grace.

Elihu said, "But thou has fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold on thee." (Job 36:17)

ewq1938
Jun 19th 2012, 01:01 AM
A man that has no personal relationship with God will act as Job did. One that has a personal relationship with God will act as Stephen did.

The two situations are not alike at all.

Noonzie
Jun 19th 2012, 01:16 AM
A man that has no personal relationship with God will act as Job did. One that has a personal relationship with God will act as Stephen did.

Elihu said, "But thou has fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold on thee." (Job 36:17)

Yikes! Not sure i would use Job's friends in which God rebuked to pass that sort of judgement against Job. God did label Job as His servant.

ewq1938
Jun 19th 2012, 01:19 AM
Yikes! Not sure i would use Job's friends in which God rebuked to pass that sort of judgement against Job.

Elihu is not one of the 3 friend's of Job. Elihu came and corrected the lot of them.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 01:25 AM
The two situations are not alike at all.

No they are not, Stephen was born again, and Job was not.

Noonzie
Jun 19th 2012, 01:26 AM
Elihu is not one of the 3 friend's of Job. Elihu came and corrected the lot of them.

You are right.. i'm sorry. I assumed it was Eliphaz you spoke of. I agree the Elihu did give good counsel.
Job never did argue against Elihu like he did the others.

I'm not sure however that it is a good comparison to say that Job didn't have a relationship with God though.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 01:27 AM
Yikes! Not sure i would use Job's friends in which God rebuked to pass that sort of judgement against Job. God did label Job as His servant.

Can you name some of the things that the friends said that was wrong?

There are several different kinds of servants. Job labeled himself as a hired servant, and even said he wanted to be free from his master.

ewq1938
Jun 19th 2012, 01:27 AM
No they are not, Stephen was born again, and Job was not.

And thus a bad comparison. It still doesn't affect what I said about what the book of Job is actually about....how a man will react to unseen persecution. Stephen knew his persecutors but Job did not.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 01:34 AM
And thus a bad comparison. It still doesn't affect what I said about what the book of Job is actually about....how a man will react to unseen persecution. Stephen knew his persecutors but Job did not.

Let me ask you a question. Do you see Job as saved, or born again, or do you see some different method of Salvation in the Old Testament?

ewq1938
Jun 19th 2012, 01:37 AM
Let me ask you a question. Do you see Job as saved, or born again, or do you see some different method of Salvation in the Old Testament?

It's not part of the book so I haven't had any interest in thinking about it. There are threads about such OT issues but Job doesn't deal with salvation.

Noonzie
Jun 19th 2012, 01:46 AM
Can you name some of the things that the friends said that was wrong?

There are several different kinds of servants. Job labeled himself as a hired servant, and even said he wanted to be free from his master.

God said what he thought was wrong about what they said:
"After the Lord had said these things to Job , he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has"


God labels him His servant, so I go by that.
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 02:05 AM
It's not part of the book so I haven't had any interest in thinking about it. There are threads about such OT issues but Job doesn't deal with salvation.

I would respectfully suggest to you that salvation is exactly what the book of Job is all about.

All the aspects of salvation are there. We are presented with the most righteous man that lived in his time, and from the story we know it was not God's righteousness, but rather Job's righteousness that is presented. What must a man do to be saved? Doesn't he need to put on God's righteousness to take away the sin of Adam?

Job asked, "How should a man be just with God?"(Job 9:2) What would your answer to Job have been?

Job said he was unforgiven.(Job 7:21) Can a man be unforgiven and have a relationship with God?

Job said he didn't know how to find God or who God was.(Job 23:3, 9:24)

God told Job that he couldn't be his own saviour. (Job 40:14)

Elihu told Job a ransom would have to be found to keep him from the pit.(Job 33:24)

We see the rebirth as presented by Nicodemus in Job 33:25. John 3:4 "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old?Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born again." Job was an old man whose flesh was made fresher than a child's.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 02:21 AM
God said what he thought was wrong about what they said:
"After the Lord had said these things to Job , he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has"

If you reread what you wrote you will see that God didn't say that the three friends said anything wrong about Job, but rather they didn't say what was right, as Job had about God. What was it that Job said that was right. It definitely was not before chapter forty two, because God had just corrected Job on his thoughts. Job had been speaking without knowledge up until that point, therefore it had to be in chapter forty two that Job spoke right about God. What was it that Job said at that point? Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Remember when Job said his heart would not reproach him so long as he lived?(Job 27:6)


God labels him His servant, so I go by that.
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Nebuchadnezzar was also God's servant. Job was a perfect and blameless hired servant until iniquity was found in him. (See Ezekiel 3:20) You can't take one verse and ignore a thousand other verses.

Noonzie
Jun 19th 2012, 02:23 AM
Nebuchadnezzar was also God's servant. Job was a perfect and blameless hired servant until iniquity was found in him. (See Ezekiel 3:20) You can't take one verse and ignore a thousand other verses.

i wasn't ignoring thousands of verses. I was just quoting what God said about Job.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 02:39 AM
i wasn't ignoring thousands of verses. I was just quoting what God said about Job.

Didn't mean to offend. Job was perfect and upright, but what does that mean? It would be like him keeping the law to the letter, and that would mean he would be without mercy. When Jesus was confronted with the adulterous woman it was not the letter of the law, but rather mercy that prevailed. And then you have to ask yourself, did Job remain perfect and upright when he was tested? Ezekiel 3:20 says that when a righteous man sins, all his righteousness will be forgotten.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 03:14 AM
Elihu said, "Do you think this is right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God's? For you said, What advantage will it be unto you? And what profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin?"(Job 35:3)

God said, "Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?(Job 40:8)

This book, like all others is about Jesus Christ, as the righteous ransom for sin.

Past my bedtime.

ewq1938
Jun 19th 2012, 04:20 AM
I would respectfully suggest to you that salvation is exactly what the book of Job is all about.

While some things relating to salvation are mentioned, the book is not about salvation. It's about a man being persecuted and how he responds to it as a lesson to all. We aren't told if Job is saved or not we only know he starts as a blessed and protected man, a persecuted man, then ends as a blessed man. I assume he was as saved as any OT man could be but we do not know what he did or did not do before he died.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 11:53 AM
While some things relating to salvation are mentioned, the book is not about salvation. It's about a man being persecuted and how he responds to it as a lesson to all. We aren't told if Job is saved or not we only know he starts as a blessed and protected man, a persecuted man, then ends as a blessed man. I assume he was as saved as any OT man could be but we do not know what he did or did not do before he died.

Numbers 12:3 Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.

Psalm 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

Psalm 25:9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

Psalm 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 76:9 When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah.

Psalm 147:6 The LORD lifteth up the meek: he casteth the wicked down to the ground.

Psalm 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:

Job is the exact opposite of meek.

God presents us with the most richest and self-righteous man on earth. What does the scripture say about a rich man?

Job 27:19 The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not.

Proverbs 18:11 The rich man's wealth is his strong city, and as an high wall in his own conceit.

Matthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

God eliminated the problem of Job’s wealth, in that it is a detriment to one’s salvation.

Have you read and understood chapters twenty nine and thirty? It is a picture of Job’s pride.

Job 29:14 “I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.” Job is speaking of his own righteousness as can be observed in Job 27:6 “My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.”

Job exalted himself above God just as Satan. God said, “Will you also disannul my judgment?(In Job 29:14 we see that Job had his own judgment.) Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?(Job 40:8) Job exalted his righteousness above God’s righteousness. Matthew 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Ezekiel 31:10-11 “Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou has lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.”

In chapter thirty Job describes men who have profited him in the past, but are no longer useful due to their age. It is a very interesting and informing chapter.


I believe that the book of Job is every bit about salvation, just as the whole bible is.

ewq1938
Jun 19th 2012, 01:08 PM
I believe that the book of Job is every bit about salvation, just as the whole bible is.

What's that some strawman argument? The whole bible isn't about salvation...but it is one of the loudest teachings. The book of Job isn't about salvation either. I've already given a plain and simple description. Whether Job is saved or not isn't even contained in the book. 99 percent of it is this time of persecution by satan and how Job reacts but apparently saying it won't change your mind so I won't continue to repeat myself.



Have you read and understood chapters twenty nine and thirty? It is a picture of Job’s pride.

Yes I have and Job's pride isn't the issue at the moment. It's long been my stance that Job did curse God and failed the test, but won in a secondary sense simply by his last min repentance.

webbguy4
Jun 19th 2012, 03:26 PM
the word translated as "repent" attributed to Job is the same as the word translated as "comfort" when it says a little later that Job's family came comfort him. I believe the correct translation is: therefore I take comfort is dust and ashes

webbguy4
Jun 19th 2012, 03:29 PM
Job is supposed to deal with undeserved suffering. if you deny that is what the book it about, then where and when do you think God speaks to the issue?

webbguy4
Jun 19th 2012, 03:32 PM
While some things relating to salvation are mentioned, the book is not about salvation. It's about a man being persecuted and how he responds to it as a lesson to all. We aren't told if Job is saved or not we only know he starts as a blessed and protected man, a persecuted man, then ends as a blessed man. I assume he was as saved as any OT man could be but we do not know what he did or did not do before he died.

the persecution of Job has not ended, the friends of Eliphaz are alive and well and posting on this thread.

webbguy4
Jun 19th 2012, 03:38 PM
to post that Job in any way deserved or needed the trials that were visited upon him is a grotesque distortion.

God said Job was right and wise coming and going.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 04:08 PM
What's that some strawman argument? The whole bible isn't about salvation...but it is one of the loudest teachings. The book of Job isn't about salvation either. I've already given a plain and simple description. Whether Job is saved or not isn't even contained in the book. 99 percent of it is this time of persecution by satan and how Job reacts but apparently saying it won't change your mind so I won't continue to repeat myself.

Does it matter whether Job was saved or not?


Yes I have and Job's pride isn't the issue at the moment. It's long been my stance that Job did curse God and failed the test, but won in a secondary sense simply by his last min repentance.

What did Job win?

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 04:09 PM
the word translated as "repent" attributed to Job is the same as the word translated as "comfort" when it says a little later that Job's family came comfort him. I believe the correct translation is: therefore I take comfort is dust and ashes

You realize that you are saying all the translators of the English translations got it wrong.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 04:10 PM
Job is supposed to deal with undeserved suffering. if you deny that is what the book it about, then where and when do you think God speaks to the issue?

I don't believe it was undeserved suffering, neither did Elihu.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 04:15 PM
to post that Job in any way deserved or needed the trials that were visited upon him is a grotesque distortion.

God said Job was right and wise coming and going.

Job's testing was for the purpose of bringing him to God. Job didn't know God in the beginning, but in the end he did.

webbguy4
Jun 19th 2012, 08:36 PM
you could actually have answered this question , i threw you an easy one

webbguy4
Jun 19th 2012, 08:52 PM
Job is in my opinion the oldest book of the bible. there are no quotes from genesis, no mention of the exodus and no mention of the ten commandments. So why did God need to give us the book of Job first? because life doesn't make sense.

In polytheistic cultures the unfairness of life is easily explained as the result of competing supernatural forces. However, the idea of a single God who loves you requires a more complicated explanation. Hence, the book of Job.

There are many difficulties in translating the book of Job. there are about 100 hebrew words in the book of Job that appear no where else, the meanings have to be inferred from the context and are therefore subject to the biased inclinations of the translater.

There is a long standing tradition in Hebrew cultures of unabashed jealousy of the righteousness of Job. It was a plainly stated concern of ancient jewish commentators that the righteousness of Job would be seen as greater than abraham. they invented bizarre justifications for the suffering of Job. One of the most infamous being that Job suffered because he was one of the kings that the pharaoh consulted before trying to kill all the first born among the jews in egypt and Job never answered the pharoah to tell him no. Myths and distortions of been applied to Job for centuries and they continue today.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 09:05 PM
you could actually have answered this question , i threw you an easy one

You lost me, please explain.

webbguy4
Jun 19th 2012, 09:09 PM
You lost me, please explain.
I asked "when and where does God address the question of undeserved suffering? i thought you were anticipating I had a clever response, so you avoided answering an easy question.

rejoice44
Jun 19th 2012, 09:20 PM
I asked "when and where does God address the question of undeserved suffering? i thought you were anticipating I had a clever response, so you avoided answering an easy question.

Do you mean underserved suffering at the hand of God?

Have to leave for a couple of hours, will get back to you.

ewq1938
Jun 19th 2012, 10:49 PM
the word translated as "repent" attributed to Job is the same as the word translated as "comfort" when it says a little later that Job's family came comfort him. I believe the correct translation is: therefore I take comfort is dust and ashes

Only a qualified and educated translator who is an expert in the language can make such a decision and their decision was "repent" which is the proper and correct choice.

ewq1938
Jun 19th 2012, 10:52 PM
Does it matter whether Job was saved or not?

Not as far as what the book is trying to teach.




What did Job win?

God's blessing and support.

Job 42:10 And the Lord made up to Job for all his losses, after he had made prayer for his friends: and all Job had before was increased by the Lord twice as much.
Job 42:11 And all his brothers and sisters, and his friends of earlier days, came and took food with him in his house; and made clear their grief for him, and gave him comfort for all the evil which the Lord had sent on him; and they all gave him a bit of money and a gold ring.
Job 42:12 And the Lord's blessing was greater on the end of Job's life than on its start: and so he came to have fourteen thousand sheep and goats, and six thousand camels, and two thousand oxen, and a thousand she-asses.

rejoice44
Jun 20th 2012, 01:09 AM
Job is in my opinion the oldest book of the bible. there are no quotes from genesis, no mention of the exodus and no mention of the ten commandments. So why did God need to give us the book of Job first? because life doesn't make sense.

1. I believe that Job is one of the later books in the bible. The order of Noah, Daniel, and Job is given twice in Ezekiel. Noah and Daniel are in order, Noah coming before Daniel. If Job was the earlier of the three logic would suggest that Job should have been listed first.

2. The correlation between Lamentations and Job. The first eighteen verses in Lamentation chapter three have a corresponding verse in Job.
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Lamentations 3:1 I am the man who has seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.

Job 19:8 He has also kindled his wrath against me, and he counts me to him as one of his enemies.
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Lamentations 3:2 He has led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.

Job 30:26 When I looked for good, then evil came to me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness.
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Lamentations 3:3 Surely against me He has turned His hand Repeatedly all the day.

Job 30:21 You have turned cruel to me; with the might of your hand you persecute me.
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Lamentations 3:4 My flesh and my skin has he made old; he has broken my bones.

Job 33:21 His flesh wastes away to nothing, and his bones, once hidden, now stick out.
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Lamentations 3:5 He has built against me, and compassed me with gall and travail.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about; He cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; He poureth out my gall upon the ground.
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Lamentations 3:6 He hath made me to dwell in dark places, as those that have been long dead.

Job 3:4-5 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it. Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell on it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.
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Lamentations 3:7 He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy.

Job 3:23, Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, And whom God hath hedged in? (19:8) He has fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he has set darkness in my paths.
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Lamentations 3:8 Also when I cry and shout, he shuts out my prayer.

Job 30:20 I cry to you, and you do not hear me: I stand up, and you regard me not.
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Lamentations 3:9 He hath walled up my ways with hewn stone; he hath made my paths crooked.

Job 12:25 They grope in the dark without light, and he makes them to stagger like a drunken man.
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Lamentations 3:10 He was to me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.

Job 10:16 For it increases. You hunt me as a fierce lion: and again you show yourself marvelous on me.
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Lamentations 3:11 He has turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he has made me desolate.

Job 19:8-9 He has fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he has set darkness in my paths. He has stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.
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Lamentations 3:12 He has bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.

Job 16:12 I was at ease, but he has broken me asunder: he has also taken me by my neck, and shaken me to pieces, and set me up for his mark.
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Lamentations 3:13 He has caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about, he splits my reins asunder, and does not spare; he pours out my gall on the ground.
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Lamentations 3:14 was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.

Job 30:9 And now am I their song, yes, I am their byword.
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Lamentations 3:15 He has filled me with bitterness, he has made me drunken with wormwood.

Job 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but fills me with bitterness.
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Lamentations 3:16 He has also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he has covered me with ashes.

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself with; and he sat down among the ashes. (29:17) And I broke the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.
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Lamentations 3:17 And you have removed my soul far off from peace: I forgot prosperity.

Job 7:15 So that my soul chooses strangling, and death rather than my life.
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Lamentations 3:18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:

Job 19:10 He has destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and my hope has he removed like a tree.
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rejoice44
Jun 20th 2012, 02:02 AM
As you compare the book of Job with the book of Lamentations it becomes evident that there is a definite relationship. A deeper study shows even a stronger relationship, such as when Job said,
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Job 2:10 What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
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Job 19:10 He has stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.

Lamentations 5:16 The crown is fallen from our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned.
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There is another verse in the book of Jeremiah that ties in with Job very strongly.

In chapter 20 of Jeremiah, Jeremiah has been put in prison by Pashur, and we find his amazing words that parallel that of Job’s, in Job chapter 3.
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Jeremiah 20:14 Cursed be the day wherein I was born: let not the day wherein my mother bare me be blessed.

Job 3:3 Let the day perish wherein I was born , and the night in which it was said, there is a man child conceived.
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To understand what is going on here you must go to Lamentations chapter 4. In verse twenty one and twenty two, and it says, "Rejoice and be glad O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shall be drunken, and shall make thyself naked. The punishement of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion: he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom: he will discover thy sins."

In Lamentations we are presented the captivity and punishment of Israel, the daughter of Zion. And then we see that the same cup is passed to Esau, the daughter of Edom. We have the two brothers Jacob and Esau. The one had resided in Jerusalem, and the other in Uz. Remember who the greatest man in Uz is? The cup of woe was passed first to Jacob, and then to Esau.

webbguy4
Jun 20th 2012, 04:22 PM
the daniel referred to in ezekial is not the same daniel of the later bible book

it is more likely that lamentations is quoting Job than the other way around. a lot of i discussion about righteousness in the book of Job and not one mention of any of the law of moses? not likely.

Job gives sacrifices to God in the manner of the patriarchs, no mention of a priesthood

webbguy4
Jun 20th 2012, 04:31 PM
I really can't get accusing Job of self righteousness, aligning yourself with Eliphaz and friends, who were specifically rebuked by God. and that was their main contention with Job.

Eliphaz starts of so politely. then he starts with this vision he had with a mysterious spirit saying "can a man be more righteous than God". this is where things fall apart between Job and friends. But up to this point you can't deny that God had already endorsed Job's righteousness. (though Eliphaz didn't know it) What Eliphaz did know was he had to play second fiddle to Job for years. later content revealed that Job was the one people came to when the wanted the last word in a difficult case and the envy was eating Eliphaz up, so the satan sent Eliphaz that vision to push him in that direction. Notice how Eliphaz and friends are driven to ever greater outbursts of anger over Job's protestations of innocence. These guys drop all pretense of speaking to Job in love.

webbguy4
Jun 20th 2012, 04:42 PM
The theme of Job is: life is not fair, God is fair...resolve

things get really distorted when you try to claim that life is fair to resolve this. God himself said to the satan "you incited me to destroy him without cause"

rejoice44
Jun 20th 2012, 05:10 PM
I really can't get accusing Job of self righteousness, aligning yourself with Eliphaz and friends, who were specifically rebuked by God. and that was their main contention with Job.

Elihu was the mediator that Job asked God for. Elihu was not a friend of Job's. If you read the story you would know that the three friends journeyed to see their friend that was in distress. to comfort him. After seeing his condition they wept, and rent their mantles, and sprinkled dust on their heads. They sat down on the ground with Job for seven days in complete silence. Would you do that for your friends?

If Satan sent the vision to Eliphaz, who sent the same vision to God?

Eliphaz said that the spirit said, "shall a man be more pure than his maker?"

God said, "Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?"

Elihu said, "Thinkest thou this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God's?

Job said, "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live."

Please quote a verse where the three friends said something wrong.

webbguy4
Jun 20th 2012, 05:21 PM
when I read the book of Job from the point of view of accepting God's word that what Job said was right and what Eliphaz and friends said was wrong, I see miracles unfold. I see layers of meaning, I read amazing prophecies. I read of God reconciling himself with all of fallen humanity

When atheists read the book they point to it as example of what an unfair bully God is. It is a huge and oft repeated mistake to respond defensively to such by trying to warp everything in the book to create reasons for Job's sufferings and the deaths of his children.

webbguy4
Jun 20th 2012, 05:28 PM
A verse where the three friends were wrong? Isn't God's rebuke enough? I read of Eliphaz starting off so politely , saying many flattering things about Job and later he goes wild, saying the opposite, driven to anger because Job will not submit and confess his guilt. But how can Job be guilty of not confessing a guilt that God himself said Job doesn't have?

webbguy4
Jun 20th 2012, 05:31 PM
"Elihu was the mediator Job asked for"

The mediator Job asked for was "an umpire to lay a hand on us both" someone who "sees as a man sees" yet can address God as an equal.

doesn't describe Elihu, sounds like someone else I have heard of though.

rejoice44
Jun 20th 2012, 05:37 PM
the daniel referred to in ezekial is not the same daniel of the later bible book

And you can prove this how?


it is more likely that lamentations is quoting Job than the other way around. a lot of i discussion about righteousness in the book of Job and not one mention of any of the law of moses? not likely.

Have you really examined Lamentations 4:21-22?


Job gives sacrifices to God in the manner of the patriarchs, no mention of a priesthood

The Edomites had no part in the priesthood.

webbguy4
Jun 20th 2012, 05:39 PM
This oft repeated error of Elihu and Eliphaz and friends, that Job claimed to be "more righteous than God" is absurd. Job never claimed that. in fact Job humbly stated that any man's righteousness is iniquity before God because the purity of God is unapproachable.

Job's reaction to God's appearance at the end of the book is exactly what Job predicted would happen. That God would speak and Job would be unable to answer. Because the mediator had not yet come.

rejoice44
Jun 20th 2012, 05:40 PM
The theme of Job is: life is not fair, God is fair...resolve

things get really distorted when you try to claim that life is fair to resolve this. God himself said to the satan "you incited me to destroy him without cause"

The theme of Job is that even the most righteous man cannot be his own saviour.

webbguy4
Jun 20th 2012, 05:46 PM
i was at a bible study today with my pastor, I hung around afterwards to tell him I had found someone to argue with about the book of Job who actually believed the deaths of Jobs children were justified. He laughed out loud with incredulity.
It is funny, until I think of the pain such reasoning brings when such people try to offer comfort to the victims of sensless trajedy.

webbguy4
Jun 20th 2012, 05:48 PM
"even the most righteous man cannot be his own savior"

I totally endorse that statement and find it consistent with what I have posted about the book of Job.

webbguy4
Jun 20th 2012, 05:57 PM
I will pause for lunch.

I know I get heated sometimes and I don't really expect to change anyone's mind. I just enjoy the give and take.

I don't know if I will be back in here today, I work nights and have to sleep sometime.

God be with you

rejoice44
Jun 20th 2012, 05:57 PM
"Elihu was the mediator Job asked for"

The mediator Job asked for was "an umpire to lay a hand on us both" someone who "sees as a man sees" yet can address God as an equal.

doesn't describe Elihu, sounds like someone else I have heard of though.

Job 13:19-“Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost.” Job is asking for a daysman to plead his case.

In Job 9:19 he asked for a date for his trial. “If I speak of strength, lo he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead?”

In these 2 verses Job has requested a judge for the trial, and a date for the trial. Job doesn’t know it yet, but the date for the trial is set for chapter 33. And the daysman will be Elihu.

After asking for a trial date, verse 19, Job requests two things from God, verse 20.

1. “With draw thine hand far from me:” (Job 13:21)

2. “Let not thy dread make me afraid.” (Job 13:21)

Then Job says, “Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me,” (Job 13:22)

This is the second time for Job to make this request. Job 9:34

1. “Let him take his rod away from me,” (Job 9:34)

2. “Let not his fear terrify me:” (Job 9:34)

Then Job says, “Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.” (Job 9:35)

Look at theses two separate yet similar requests, along with Job’s statement about speaking, and compare them with Elihu’s response. Job chapter 33.

First you have Elihu saying, “Behold, I am according to your wish in God’s stead.” (Job 33:6) And then—

1. “Neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee” (Job 33:7)

2. “Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid,” (Job 33:7)

And Elihu says, “If thou hast anything to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee.” (Job 33:32) There can be no doubt Elihu is Job’s daysman.

rejoice44
Jun 20th 2012, 06:09 PM
i was at a bible study today with my pastor, I hung around afterwards to tell him I had found someone to argue with about the book of Job who actually believed the deaths of Jobs children were justified. He laughed out loud with incredulity.
It is funny, until I think of the pain such reasoning brings when such people try to offer comfort to the victims of sensless trajedy.

The hangup for most people in understanding the book of Job is because so many preachers have taken the tragedy in Job's life and tried to equate it with some other persons tragedy, and it doesn't work. God has many reasons for cutting short someone's life, and only God knows why. It is our place to trust God, knowing that God is just.

ewq1938
Jun 20th 2012, 11:36 PM
Please quote a verse where the three friends said something wrong.

Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
Job 32:3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.
Job 32:4 Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.
Job 32:5 When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.
Job 32:6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion.
Job 32:7 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Job 32:9 Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.
Job 32:10 Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion.
Job 32:11 Behold, I waited for your words; I gave ear to your reasons, whilst ye searched out what to say.
Job 32:12 Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words:

It's not that they said a bad sentence or two but that overall they failed to give a good answer back to Job and failed to convince him that he was wrong.

ewq1938
Jun 20th 2012, 11:40 PM
The hangup for most people in understanding the book of Job is because so many preachers have taken the tragedy in Job's life and tried to equate it with some other persons tragedy, and it doesn't work.

Eh, the real hang up is most people don't realize Job had done and said wrong throughout the book, don't recognize God confronting and correcting him and only focus on God saying Job spoke rightly of God at the end thinking that applies to the whole of the book when it doesn't.

rejoice44
Jun 21st 2012, 03:04 AM
Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
Job 32:3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.
Job 32:4 Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.
Job 32:5 When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.
Job 32:6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion.
Job 32:7 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Job 32:9 Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.
Job 32:10 Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion.
Job 32:11 Behold, I waited for your words; I gave ear to your reasons, whilst ye searched out what to say.
Job 32:12 Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words:

It's not that they said a bad sentence or two but that overall they failed to give a good answer back to Job and failed to convince him that he was wrong.

I would agree with what you are saying here, but would go a step farther, and say that Job 33:23 is what Elihu was referring to. "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Preacher is another form of witness. The friends couldn't be witnesses because they didn't know God either.

ewq1938
Jun 21st 2012, 03:11 AM
The friends couldn't be witnesses because they didn't know God either.

I don't think we can say that about them because scripture doesn't. We know they didn't answer Job well enough and that God says they didn't speak correctly about Him but any further is further than the scriptures venture.

rejoice44
Jun 21st 2012, 11:36 AM
I don't think we can say that about them because scripture doesn't. We know they didn't answer Job well enough and that God says they didn't speak correctly about Him but any further is further than the scriptures venture.

Well Job didn't know God. Job said he didn't know who God was, or how to find God.

When we are saved, doesn't God accept the sacrifice of his Son, and in so doing accepts us because of that sacrifice?

God accepted Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Job after a sacrifice was offerred. Because of Abraham's offering, the Messiah was promised.

Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

We see the sacrifice of animals as a substitutional atonement until the seed should come.

Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Job 42:9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.

I think it is significant that scripture says that Job was also accepted.

rejoice44
Jun 21st 2012, 12:38 PM
the daniel referred to in ezekial is not the same daniel of the later bible book

If you are referring to the Ugaritic Daniel, he was a polytheist, and could hardly be described as righteous before God.


it is more likely that lamentations is quoting Job than the other way around. a lot of i discussion about righteousness in the book of Job and not one mention of any of the law of moses? not likely.

In my world scripture is inspired by God, and not copied from another writer. The cup of woe that is passed from Israel to Edom would be the reason why the scripture looks so much alike. Surely Job represented Edom. The land of Uz is mentioned only three times in the bible, once in Job, once in Jeremiah, and once in Lamentations. The land of Uz is the land of the Edomites, and the greatest man in Uz was Job.


Job gives sacrifices to God in the manner of the patriarchs, no mention of a priesthood

As you look at Numbers 23:29 you will see that Balaam offered up seven bullocks and seven rams, the same as in Job, and Balaam was not a member of the priesthood of the Jews.

ewq1938
Jun 21st 2012, 12:47 PM
Well Job didn't know God.

Of course he did.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.





Job said he didn't know who God was, or how to find God.

Job said huge amounts of things that weren't true.


When we are saved, doesn't God accept the sacrifice of his Son, and in so doing accepts us because of that sacrifice?

Yep.




God accepted Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Job after a sacrifice was offerred.

Yep, all in chapter 42.





Job 42:9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.

I think it is significant that scripture says that Job was also accepted.

Not really significant...Job was accepted after repenting. It had nothing to do with what the three friends sacrificed.

Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 21st 2012, 02:26 PM
/reps ewq1938

15

rejoice44
Jun 21st 2012, 04:28 PM
Of course he did.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

There is a big difference between fearing God, and knowing God. If you asked Fenris if he feared God his answer, I am sure, would be yes.

Consider the words in the book of Job with the words of Paul in Romans.

Elihu speaking , Job 34:35 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.


Elihu speaking, Job 35:16 Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain; he multiplieth words without knowledge.


God speaking, Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?


Job speaking, Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.


Paul speaking, Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.


Paul speaking, Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Job speaking, Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Notice what else Paul said. Romans 10:1 My hearts desire for Israel is that they might be saved.







Job said huge amounts of things that weren't true.

Yes, like God would laugh at the trial of the innocent, and that God was unjust.


Not really significant...Job was accepted after repenting. It had nothing to do with what the three friends sacrificed.

Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Job had asked God that someone might pray for him, and in response to that request, God allows Job to pray for his friends. Job 16:21 "O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour!"

webbguy4
Jun 21st 2012, 05:12 PM
Elihu as the mediator Job requested?

Nah, how can Elihu lay a hand on God and restrain him?

Elihu was certainly a step up from Eliphaz and friends, he used a more civil tone, he quoted Job correctly without distorting what Job said, like Eliphaz and friends did, and best of all he was willing to concede that there was some other purpose to Job's trials OTHER than punishment.

"Job sought to justify himself rather than God"
yeah he did, but put yourself in his shoes, he knew he did nothing wrong. God knew he did nothing wrong, at least to deserve the deaths of his children , the loss of his wealth, and the disdain of all who knew him. God said to the satan: "you incited me destroy him without cause".

have you ever been falsely accused ? of horrible things? by angry people who called themselves friends. of course you will justify yourself.

yeah, when God confronts we fall short , we answer to him not him to us, But Job was being honest , it wasn't a sin

webbguy4
Jun 21st 2012, 05:41 PM
go to "Christianity Today" website , search for "Book of Job" and click on reductionist justice

webbguy4
Jun 21st 2012, 05:48 PM
rejoice44,

we know God said that Eliphaz and friends said things that weren't right. what do you think those things are?

Some of the things they said may have been correct, but they wern't right. As Job explained to his friends (chapter 16) there are something you just don't say to grieving people even if they might be true. you don't tell a grieving parent their children are dead because they deserved it, or they were killed because you deserve it. Even if there were some chance that was true. a friend just doesn't say those things

webbguy4
Jun 21st 2012, 06:12 PM
Only a qualified and educated translator who is an expert in the language can make such a decision and their decision was "repent" which is the proper and correct choice.

CEV (common English version) translation of the bible says "take comfort in dust and ashes"

webbguy4
Jun 21st 2012, 06:15 PM
"qualified and educated translater"

hmm. should I have faith in qualifications or education? or faith in God? I think I can research for myself.

webbguy4
Jun 21st 2012, 07:02 PM
I have a really boring job in a factory. a few weeks ago I was thinking on the book of Job as I worked. I have been reading and studying this for months, so it is often on my mind. In my study of Job I was trying to make a point of not looking for answers, i just wanted to refine the questions. But some answers came to me though I tried to make them unwelcome. Here is one. there is a difference between Job's first and second responses to God's revelations. The answer came to me. I didn't want it, I wasn't even looking for it, it knocked me back on my keister.

Joy

In the second response Job is reconciled to God. Job accepts. Job knows his dead children are safe with God. Job is overwhelmed with JOY! Job is no longer the humble petitioner meekly submitting to God's will. He loves and is loved. He takes comfort in dust and ashes.

The blessings that come to Job at the end are not a payment exactly, what they are for us, the reader, is evidence, that Job has embraced and been embraced by God and will now live in that Joy. he would not even have accepted these gifts in the depths of his despair.

"blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted"

no one is more honest than one who mourns and mourning is always the loss of love in some form. and nothing will comfort except love.

webbguy4
Jun 21st 2012, 07:14 PM
The preceding revelation came to me before I knew the hebrew word translated as "repent" is other places in the book of Job translated as "comfort"

rejoice44
Jun 21st 2012, 08:02 PM
The preceding revelation came to me before I knew the hebrew word translated as "repent" is other places in the book of Job translated as "comfort"

You really need to rethink this. The reason the translators translated the word repent is because the Hebrew takes a different form in Job 42:6 than it does where it is translated comfort. ewq1938 tried to alert you to this.

rejoice44
Jun 21st 2012, 08:32 PM
CEV (common English version) translation of the bible says "take comfort in dust and ashes"

CEV (Copyright 1995) Job 42:6 That’s why I hate myself and sit here in dust and ashes to show my sorrow.

ewq1938
Jun 22nd 2012, 03:22 AM
There is a big difference between fearing God, and knowing God.


You can't fear/respect God unless you know him. Job clearly knew God...he just thought he was too good to suffer all of those bad things. He then begins to think differently about God, incorrect things...assumptions about God's morality based on Job's mistaken blame of God for his sufferings. God choose Job to be the one tested in all of this. It was God that brought Job to satan's attention, bragging about Job.

IMINXTC
Jun 22nd 2012, 03:25 AM
Question: Why do the righteous suffer?

Answer: Why not?


"Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous? or is it gain to him, that thou makest thy ways perfect?" Job 22:3

ewq1938
Jun 22nd 2012, 03:28 AM
CEV (common English version) translation of the bible says "take comfort in dust and ashes"

No, it says,
(CEV) That's why I hate myself and sit here in dust and ashes to show my sorrow.

Job 42:6


(ASV) Wherefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.

(BBE) For this cause I give witness that what I said is false, and in sorrow I take my seat in the dust.

(Darby) Wherefore I abhor myself , and repent in dust and ashes.

(DRB) Therefore I reprehend myself, and do penance in dust and ashes.

(ESV) therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

(GNB) So I am ashamed of all I have said and repent in dust and ashes.

(GW) That is why I take back what I said, and I sit in dust and ashes to show that I am sorry."

(ISV) As a result, I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."

(JPS) Wherefore I abhor my words, and repent, seeing I am dust and ashes.

(KJV) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.


(LITV) Therefore, I despise myself, and I have repented on dust and ashes.

(MKJV) Therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

(RV) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

(Webster) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

(YLT) Therefore do I loathe it , And I have repented on dust and ashes.

Barnes:

In dust and ashes - In the most lowly manner, and with the most expressive symbols of humiliation. It was customary in times of grief, whether in view of sin or from calamity, to sit down in ashes (see the notes at Job_2:8; compare Dan_9:3; Jon_3:6; Mat_11:21); or on such an occasion the sufferer and the penitent would strew ashes over himself; compare Isa_58:5. The philosophy of this was - like the custom of wearing “black” for mourning apparel - that the external appearance ought to correspond with the internal emotions, and that deep sorrow would be appropriately expressed by disfiguring the outward aspect as much as possible. The sense here is, that Job meant to give expression to the profoundest and sincerest feelings of penitence for his sins.

rejoice44
Jun 22nd 2012, 08:58 AM
You can't fear/respect God unless you know him. Job clearly knew God...he just thought he was too good to suffer all of those bad things. He then begins to think differently about God, incorrect things...assumptions about God's morality based on Job's mistaken blame of God for his sufferings. God choose Job to be the one tested in all of this. It was God that brought Job to satan's attention, bragging about Job.

Can't you see how Job is a picture of the righteous Jew of today, who has not accepted God's righteousness, Jesus Christ. No one has ever been righteous enough to earn their own salvation. The Orthodox Jew of today has a zeal for God, but without knowledge. God took his hedge away from the Jew and they went into captivity. Whom God loves God corrects. The Jew today would not be back in Israel, if it had not been for the holocaust.

Job said he was a hired servant, Job said he was unforgiven, Job said he was without hope, Job said he didn't know God, Job was self-righteous, and Job said he wanted to be free from his master. If Job was saved before he repented, then so is every self-righteous Jew living today who rejects the Messiah.

ewq1938
Jun 22nd 2012, 09:09 AM
Can't you see how Job is a picture of the righteous Jew of today, who has not accepted God's righteousness, Jesus Christ.

No.


No one has ever been righteous enough to earn their own salvation. The Orthodox Jew of today has a zeal for God, but without knowledge.

They have knowledge but an antiquated one which is missing newer information...and the faith to accept that news...namely the name of the Messiah and of his life years ago.



God took his hedge away from the Jew and they went into captivity. Whom God loves God corrects. The Jew today would not be back in Israel, if it had not been for the holocaust.

Jews lived in Israel before the holocaust. I think Israel is an official nation because of it or at least became one sooner.


If Job was saved before he repented, then so is every self-righteous Jew living today who rejects the Messiah.

Whatever Job was before, he was in very good standing with God. God bragged about Job.

He only faltered during his test and afterward he redeemed himself by repenting of his errors.

rejoice44
Jun 22nd 2012, 10:21 AM
They have knowledge but an antiquated one which is missing newer information...and the faith to accept that news...namely the name of the Messiah and of his life years ago.

Jesus Christ is God, Jesus Christ created all things. Jesus means saviour. The Saviour, as God, was there for Job, but Job didn't think that he needed a saviour because he was self righteous. God asked Job if he was going to take Satan for a servant forever. The book is about Job needing a saviour. God told Job that Job's own right hand couldn't save him. How could Job condemn God's righteousness, and exalt his own, and still be saved? Elihu told Job that a ransom was needed for Job's salvation, and that Job was headed for the pit. Job exhibited the new birth when his flesh became fresher than a childs.

Paul was second to none in righteousness while going about having Jewish followers of Christ led to the slaughter. (Philippians 3:4-6) Please explain how Paul was different than Job.

webbguy4
Jun 22nd 2012, 01:39 PM
Jesus is the answer to Job's pleas to God , for a comforter, a umpire and a redeemer.

It doesn't make sense to claim that Job was self righteous and didn't need a redeemer, when that is what he pleaded for. In fact, Job invented the whole concept. It was Job who saw that a redeemer was required.

webbguy4
Jun 22nd 2012, 01:53 PM
It is a valid biblical tradition to complain to God when trials become to much to bear. It is there is the Psalms of lament. It is there in the words of Jesus as he was crucifed. "abba, why have you forsaken me?"

It is a cry we are all entitled to.

The wail of a lamenting mourner is the most honest prayer a human can make, God will not despise it.

It is clear Job suffered undeservedly. This is specifically stated. Job was not wrong to complain. We are instructed when we pray to lay our complaints before God. God is not threatened by this. God honors this. It was Eliphaz and friends who were ordered to make a sacrifice of contrition, not Job.

webbguy4
Jun 22nd 2012, 02:02 PM
Job being "in dust and ashes" in this context can be taken more literally since the book earlier states that Job was sitting in ashes in order to try to find some relief from his skin ailment. The book of Job is ancient enough that the idiomatic use of the phrase as a sign of mourning may have originated here.

webbguy4
Jun 22nd 2012, 02:32 PM
I ponder the mystery of the authorship of Job.

It is jewish tradition to apply the authorship to Moses. I find this unlikely since the book contains so many poetic and idiomatic references to pagan cultures. Many of these references are made invisible to us by translators who attempt to give the intended meaning rather than the literal phrases.

I read of a reasonable guess that says Moses got the story from his father-in-law from his first marriage. that seems possible, I think the story originated as an oral tradition and perhaps Moses converted it to written form. This is consistent with the story being in the form of a poem. Before writing developed poetry was a way of enforcing a consistency on the telling of a story as it was handed from one generation to the next.

So maybe it is more precise to ask who is the composer of the story of Job? One guess that appealed to me for a time was the three daughters named at the end of the book could be the composers. But later dismissed as the references to their beauty being uncharacteristically egocentric for the culture. Elihu or Zophar seem possible , nah , I don't buy that either.

Whoever the author was was granted a special behind the scenes vision of the workings of God's court not seen anywhere else. He would also have been witness to news of the disasters coming to Job and the personal confrontation between Job and his wife. hmmm . No, I don't think his wife is it.

Here is my updated, refined and revised quess as to the composer of the story. Job at one point tells of taking in an orphan and treating him as his own. I pick this un named orphan my guess as to composer of the story of Job.