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Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 08:06 AM
With the first covenant/the ten commandments, being taken away by God, what do we have?

Heb 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The following teaches that we are now under grace and cannot have both.

Rom 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Can we truly depend on Gods grace without the ten commandments/the covenant taken away by God?

God bless you!

Firstfruit

quiet dove
Jun 7th 2011, 11:55 AM
With the first covenant/the ten commandments, being taken away by God, what do we have?
Heb 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The following teaches that we are now under grace and cannot have both.

Rom 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Can we truly depend on Gods grace without the ten commandments/the covenant taken away by God?

God bless you!

Firstfruit

But the ten commandments haven't been taken away. Sin is still sin, right. What is wrong in God's eyes has not changed, or gone away.

Jesus fulfilled the covenant of the Law. The Law is basically an expansion of the ten commandments, spelling out the details. It is not so much that God took the Law away, what He did do was provide a Better way to approach Him when we broke it. Men no longer approach through the sacrificial system. We now approach through Christ our Mediator who was/is the provision the Law required for our sins. Plus we now have the promise of the indwelling Spirit, so we are no longer dependent upon our flesh, which as we all know, is simply not dependable.

The Law still exist in that sin is still sin, and the Law still calls sin … sin. But what has changed is that through the Redeemer we are no longer dependent upon the flesh. So , while sin is still sin, we no longer have the Law condemning us if we are in Christ Jesus, so thus we are no longer “under the Law”.

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 12:55 PM
But the ten commandments haven't been taken away. Sin is still sin, right. What is wrong in God's eyes has not changed, or gone away.

Jesus fulfilled the covenant of the Law. The Law is basically an expansion of the ten commandments, spelling out the details. It is not so much that God took the Law away, what He did do was provide a Better way to approach Him when we broke it. Men no longer approach through the sacrificial system. We now approach through Christ our Mediator who was/is the provision the Law required for our sins. Plus we now have the promise of the indwelling Spirit, so we are no longer dependent upon our flesh, which as we all know, is simply not dependable.

The Law still exist in that sin is still sin, and the Law still calls sin … sin. But what has changed is that through the Redeemer we are no longer dependent upon the flesh. So , while sin is still sin, we no longer have the Law condemning us if we are in Christ Jesus, so thus we are no longer “under the Law”.

God said that he has taken it away.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

If it has not been taken away by God then what has he changed with the ten commandments?

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

What covenant has been done away with by God other than that given at Mount Sinai?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 01:03 PM
What law is it that we are not under when it comes to grace?

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Firstfruits

Nihil Obstat
Jun 7th 2011, 01:04 PM
Keep reading along in Hebrews: "He takes away the first in order to establish the second" (10:9).

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 01:09 PM
Keep reading along in Hebrews: "He takes away the first in order to establish the second" (10:9).

Knowing then that the covenant that God made with Israel at Mount Sinai is what God said he has taken away, if the ten commandments/the first covenant, have not been taken away then has the second covenant been established?

Are we not under grace?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 02:44 PM
Other than the covenant in the following scripture, is there another covenant given to Israel at Mount Sinai?

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Unless there is another that was given at Mount Sinai then what has God taken away?

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Firstfruits

Amos_with_goats
Jun 7th 2011, 03:04 PM
I recall a conversation with a man who was tempted to leave his wife.

He was trying to make the same points... wanting very much to believe what you are reaching for here.

Galatians 6:7

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.


With the first covenant/the ten commandments, being taken away by God, what do we have?

Heb 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The following teaches that we are now under grace and cannot have both.

Rom 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Can we truly depend on Gods grace without the ten commandments/the covenant taken away by God?

God bless you!

Firstfruit

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 03:10 PM
I recall a conversation with a man who was tempted to leave his wife.

He was trying to make the same points... wanting very much to believe what you are reaching for here.

Galatians 6:7

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

With the scriptures given throughout this thread, what do you believe I am reaching for?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 05:15 PM
Do we not trust God enough to depend soley on his grace? If God required the covenant to remain and for us to keep it, why then did he make it old and give us a new one?

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Firstfruits

quiet dove
Jun 7th 2011, 05:29 PM
Other than the covenant in the following scripture, is there another covenant given to Israel at Mount Sinai?

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Unless there is another that was given at Mount Sinai then what has God taken away?

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Firstfruits

The means of approaching, worshiping, and serving God were through the temple and sacrificial system, the means for all these is now through Christ. Atonement, for sin was provided for with the sacrifice of animals, which of course now is provided for by the atoning blood of Christ.
*The atonement part is a little more complicated but that is the gist in terms of the discussion here.

God did not say He would remove the Law in terms of sin some how no longer being sin, He said He would write the Law on their hearts. Since all those in Christ Jesus are indwelt with the Spirit, they have the Law written on their heart. So now instead of us being under the Law, the Law is in us.

Does that help any? I mean I know it is tricky. The first thing we know for a fact that sin is still sin. So to say that sin went away we know is not true, and what we have in the ten commandments are things that are contrary to God's will and thus sin. And sin is still sin. But in terms of our sin, all is through Christ and no longer through the Mosaic Covenant.

Don't let it get to ya. Just keep praying and studying on it and God will turn on the light with it. That's how it works for all things we seek to understand of the things of God. As a believer you are indwelt with the Spirit and have God's Law written on your heart, so your good to go, so to speak. :saint:

While we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, we know sin is still sin.
:)

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 05:37 PM
The means of approaching, worshiping, and serving God were through the temple and sacrificial system, the means for all these is now through Christ. Atonement, for sin was provided for with the sacrifice of animals, which of course now is provided for by the atoning blood of Christ.
*The atonement part is a little more complicated but that is the gist in terms of the discussion here.

God did not say He would remove the Law in terms of sin some how no longer being sin, He said He would write the Law on their hearts. Since all those in Christ Jesus are indwelt with the Spirit, they have the Law written on their heart. So now instead of us being under the Law, the Law is in us.

Does that help any? I mean I know it is tricky. The first thing we know for a fact that sin is still sin. So to say that sin went away we know is not true, and what we have in the ten commandments are things that are contrary to God's will and thus sin. And sin is still sin.

Don't let it get to ya. Just keep praying and studying on it and God will turn on the light with it. That's how it works for all things we seek to understand of the things of God. As a believer you are indwelt with the Spirit and have God's Law written on your heart, so your good to go, so to speak. :saint:

While we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, we know sin is still sin.
:)

Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, so for God to remove what he gave at Mount Sinai should not affect anything concerning sin.

The covenant given at Mount Sinai is the ten commandments.

Deut 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

That is what he said he has made old.

Why would God make old that which he has put in us? Is that not a contradiction? The old was taken away that the new could be established.

Firstfruits

quiet dove
Jun 7th 2011, 05:53 PM
Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, so for God to remove what he gave at Mount Sinai should not affect anything concerning sin.
Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, but this is what was said regarding that time in mens history.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
We know also from Romans, and so much in the OT that men knew God, even when we do not have a lot of details it is enough that we know men knew God. Like Noah. It was possible for men to be aware that God existed.

We are also told this in Romans
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

The covenant given at Mount Sinai is the ten commandments.

Deut 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

That is what he said he has made old.

Why would God make old that which he has put in us? Is that not a contradiction? The old was taken away that the new could be established.

FirstfruitsNo, because what was once of the mortal physical realm, is now perfected through Christ Jesus in the spiritual realm.
Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, but this is what was said regarding that time in mens history.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The Mosaic Law-Covenant, was a new Covenant and an agreement with Israel in terms of their being separated out unto God as a witness to the Gentile nations. While there were previous Covenants between God and men, this particular Covenant was between the Israelites and God

Deuteronomy 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive. (Exo 19:1)

God promised this New Covenant way back when.
Jeremiah 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The point of both Covenants is the means of having relationship God provides for His creatures. The latter infinitely better than the former.

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 06:03 PM
Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, but this is what was said regarding that time in mens history.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
We know also from Romans, and so much in the OT that men knew God, even when we do not have a lot of details it is enough that we know men knew God. Like Noah. It was possible for men to be aware that God existed.

We are also told this in Romans
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
No, because what was once of the mortal physical realm, is now perfected through Christ Jesus in the spiritual realm.
Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, but this is what was said regarding that time in mens history.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The Mosaic Law-Covenant, was a new Covenant and an agreement with Israel in terms of their being separated out unto God as a witness to the Gentile nations. While there were previous Covenants between God and men, this particular Covenant was between the Israelites and God

Deuteronomy 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive. (Exo 19:1)

God promised this New Covenant way back when.
Jeremiah 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The point of both Covenants is the means of having relationship God provides for His creatures. The latter infinitely better than the former.

And the first had to be taken away before he could establish the second.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jun 7th 2011, 06:18 PM
With whom did God make His covenant(s)?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amos_with_goats
Jun 7th 2011, 06:19 PM
And the first had to be taken away before he could establish the second.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Firstfruits

Your point is made apart from the context.

Hebrews 10:8-10

8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

You would teach that Christ abolished what He established... He did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Rather, he made two into one..

Ephesians 2:14-16

Christ Our Peace

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Read the above passage, read the chapter...

You seem to desire to teach something apart from this.... and I believe that your approach is a grave error.

Christ Himself spoke against the teaching you bring here.

Matthew 5:17-20

Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


Please turn from verse 19a, accept 19b. Not from me, but from the clear teaching of Christ Himself.

quiet dove
Jun 7th 2011, 06:31 PM
And the first had to be taken away before he could establish the second.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Firstfruits

But as Amos said, He did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. "Taketh away" is more along the lines of God's means of our relationship with Him now being through Christ as opposed to through the Law.

I mean, yes, we are under a New Covenant, but I have been approaching this from the aspect of sin still being sin as given in the ten commandments, as that seemed to be the issue at hand.

We need to bear in mind that the Mosaic Covenant was earthly, and the New Covenant is spiritual, though I think it is safe to say that the Old effected the spiritual just like the New effects the earthly. Both covenants, and righteousness, are a matter of those who have placed their belief and faith in God and obedience should naturally follow.

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 06:44 PM
Your point is made apart from the context.

Hebrews 10:8-10

8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

You would teach that Christ abolished what He established... He did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Rather, he made two into one..

Ephesians 2:14-16

Christ Our Peace

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Read the above passage, read the chapter...

You seem to desire to teach something apart from this.... and I believe that your approach is a grave error.

Christ Himself spoke against the teaching you bring here.

Matthew 5:17-20

Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


Please turn from verse 19a, accept 19b. Not from me, but from the clear teaching of Christ Himself.

What is the covenant that God has made old?

Moses did not say that sacrifices and offerings were part of the covenant, only the ten commandments. They were there to go with the covenant, so if the covenant is taken away those additional thing would also go.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 06:46 PM
But as Amos said, He did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. "Taketh away" is more along the lines of God's means of our relationship with Him now being through Christ as opposed to through the Law.

I mean, yes, we are under a New Covenant, but I have been approaching this from the aspect of sin still being sin as given in the ten commandments, as that seemed to be the issue at hand.

We need to bear in mind that the Mosaic Covenant was earthly, and the New Covenant is spiritual, though I think it is safe to say that the Old effected the spiritual just like the New effects the earthly. Both covenants, and righteousness, are a matter of those who have placed their belief and faith in God and obedience should naturally follow.

What was Christs explanation regarding fulfiling the law and prophets and the Psalms?

Firstfruits

quiet dove
Jun 7th 2011, 07:20 PM
What was Christs explanation regarding fulfiling the law and prophets and the Psalms?

Firstfruits

You mean like when He said these things?
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached,.....

I am not sure what you are asking me, sorry, I'm kinda slow...LOL

I am not sure about Psalms, do you mean in regards to the Messianic prophecies or the prophecies of His being promised King to rule Israel?(Davids Heir?)

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 07:31 PM
You mean like when He said these things?
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached,.....

I am not sure what you are asking me, sorry, I'm kinda slow...LOL

I am not sure about Psalms, do you mean in regards to the Messianic prophecies or the prophecies of His being promised King to rule Israel?(Davids Heir?)

Jesus was refering to the scriptures concerning himself.

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and Thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This is what Jesus explained to his disciples that he meant.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 08:03 PM
Those things in the law and the prophets and the Psalms concerning Jesus could not be taken away or changed, only one covenant has God said he would change, and has made old.

Firstfruits

RockSolid
Jun 7th 2011, 08:26 PM
If all of the ten commandments are still in effect, then we should still honor the Sabbath and the SDA were right all along.

Commandment #4
Exod 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exod 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exod 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

I made a thread about the Law and the Prophets a few days ago. It is kind of lengthy and...... *cough* preterist *cough*.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/227261-The-Law-and-the-Prophets

Firstfruits
Jun 7th 2011, 08:42 PM
If all of the ten commandments are still in effect, then we should still honor the Sabbath and the SDA were right all along.

Commandment #4
Exod 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exod 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exod 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

I made a thread about the Law and the Prophets a few days ago. It is kind of lengthy and...... *cough* preterist *cough*.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/227261-The-Law-and-the-Prophets

If the first covenant still stands then the death of Jesus would not have established another covenant.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Firstfruits

RollTide21
Jun 7th 2011, 09:04 PM
Your point is made apart from the context.

Hebrews 10:8-10

8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

You would teach that Christ abolished what He established... He did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Rather, he made two into one..

Ephesians 2:14-16

Christ Our Peace

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Read the above passage, read the chapter...

You seem to desire to teach something apart from this.... and I believe that your approach is a grave error.

Christ Himself spoke against the teaching you bring here.

Matthew 5:17-20

Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


Please turn from verse 19a, accept 19b. Not from me, but from the clear teaching of Christ Himself.Are you saying that our standard of righteousness is Old Law? Christ isn't just referring to the Ten Commandments in those verses. Did Jesus and His disciples and apostles teach that the Old Law is our standard of righteousness?

Beckrl
Jun 7th 2011, 09:17 PM
Hints there is no more Temple for we are the Temple of God and the laws of Moses written on stone is no more for the laws of God is forever written down in our hearts. From the old covenant to the new and better covenant.

Amos_with_goats
Jun 7th 2011, 09:44 PM
Are you saying that our standard of righteousness is Old Law? Christ isn't just referring to the Ten Commandments in those verses. Did Jesus and His disciples and apostles teach that the Old Law is our standard of righteousness?

I am not sure where you get that from my post. :confused

With regard to righteousness, my righteousness is Christ.. The Law can not make one righteous.. (Read Paul's letter to the Galatians) :)

I have none on my own... as a matter of fact mine is as fifthly rags! :eek:

I DO desire to hate lawlessness. (although my flesh does not).

Hebrews 1:9

9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

RollTide21
Jun 7th 2011, 09:59 PM
I am not sure where you get that from my post. :confused

With regard to righteousness, my righteousness is Christ.. The Law can not make one righteous.. (Read Paul's letter to the Galatians) :)

I have none on my own... as a matter of fact mine is as fifthly rags! :eek:

I DO desire to hate lawlessness. (although my flesh does not).

Hebrews 1:9

9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”I understand. And I never thought that was your claim to righteousness.

Firstfruits is correct in that the requirement for following the letter of the Law was done away with. In Christ's fulfillment of the Law, He established the standard of righteousness to which that Law pointed. Galatians 5 tells it all. In exhibiting the Fruits of the Spirit of Christ, we uphold all of the Law.

I don't believe that, as Faithful followers of Christ, we need be concerned with what are and what are not the statutes of the Old Law, including the 10. In following Christ and living in His Spirit, He gives us the characteristics that exhibit righteousness before God. See the Fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5.

shepherdsword
Jun 7th 2011, 11:46 PM
The new covenant is much harder to keep than the old. It can only be done by walking in the Spirit. Of course this means you have to die to yourself. So much for "greasy grace"
There are 1050 commands in the new testament and 613 in the old.

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 12:23 AM
Jesus was refering to the scriptures concerning himself.

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and Thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This is what Jesus explained to his disciples that he meant.

Firstfruits

As Jesus said, He fulfilled all these things. I guess I don't understand why, because the ten commandments still tell us what sin is, and sin has not go away, how that effects the New Covenant? Obedience is just as important if we love God under the New Covenant, as it was for those who loved God under the Old Covenant, both covenants about faith, just different means provided by God to approach, worship, and seek, Him. And regarding atonement. I guess I don't understand that because the Old Covenant explains sin, that some how negates the New in that sin still exist.

Nihil Obstat
Jun 8th 2011, 01:14 AM
There are 1050 commands in the new testament and 613 in the old.

Huh? Where'd you get this number from?

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2011, 09:34 AM
As Jesus said, He fulfilled all these things. I guess I don't understand why, because the ten commandments still tell us what sin is, and sin has not go away, how that effects the New Covenant? Obedience is just as important if we love God under the New Covenant, as it was for those who loved God under the Old Covenant, both covenants about faith, just different means provided by God to approach, worship, and seek, Him. And regarding atonement. I guess I don't understand that because the Old Covenant explains sin, that some how negates the New in that sin still exist.

Let's look at the whole picture.

God gave Israel the ten commandments to keep:

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

God promises to make a new covenant because Israel would not keep the ten commandments:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

God makes the ten commandments old and takes it away because it was not being kept:

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

We are ministers of the new testament, for that which was written in table of stone is done away:

2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The question for us now is, what do we have now in the absence of the ten commandments?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2011, 01:23 PM
The ten commandments is already established:

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

What covenant did the death of Jesus establish?

Firstfruits

Jake
Jun 8th 2011, 01:28 PM
The question for us now is, what do we have now in the absence of the ten commandments?


We have the Holy Spirit

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 01:33 PM
Let's look at the whole picture.

God gave Israel the ten commandments to keep:

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

God promises to make a new covenant because Israel would not keep the ten commandments:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

God makes the ten commandments old and takes it away because it was not being kept:

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

We are ministers of the new testament, for that which was written in table of stone is done away:

2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The question for us now is, what do we have now in the absence of the ten commandments?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


The glory of the Law was dependent upon the flesh, the glory of the New Covenant is dependent upon Christ. But the ten commandments still apply in that they declare God's will, which has not changed. They are no longer written in stone, they are written on the hearts of those who are in Christ Jesus. What vanished away is God's means of dealing with the fact that men cannot keep the ten commandments, not the ten commandments because sin is still sin. The problem was never with the ten commandments, the problem was with mens inability to obey them

RollTide21
Jun 8th 2011, 02:31 PM
As Jesus said, He fulfilled all these things. I guess I don't understand why, because the ten commandments still tell us what sin is, and sin has not go away, how that effects the New Covenant? Obedience is just as important if we love God under the New Covenant, as it was for those who loved God under the Old Covenant, both covenants about faith, just different means provided by God to approach, worship, and seek, Him. And regarding atonement. I guess I don't understand that because the Old Covenant explains sin, that some how negates the New in that sin still exist."The Law written on our hearts" = The Holy Spirit. When we receive the Spirit of Christ, it is Him that tells us what is and what is not sin. That's the whole point of the New Covenant.

Romans 8:5-8

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Galatians 5:16-18

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Hebrews 10:22

22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 02:35 PM
"The Law written on our hearts" = The Holy Spirit. When we receive the Spirit, it is this that guides us as to what sin is.

Romans 8:5-8

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Galatians 5:16-18

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Hebrews 10:22

22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Exactly, the Law is no longer written on stone, it is written on our hearts by the Spirit, it did not disappear with the New Covenant, nor did the ten commandments. Sin is still sin.

RollTide21
Jun 8th 2011, 02:37 PM
Exactly, the Law is no longer written on stone, it is written on our hearts by the Spirit, it did not disappear with the New Covenant, nor did the ten commandments. Sin is still sin.Do you keep the Sabbath as it is defined by the Old Law?

Amos_with_goats
Jun 8th 2011, 02:51 PM
Do you keep the Sabbath as it is defined by the Old Law?

Would you be right to judge her if she did?

RollTide21
Jun 8th 2011, 03:00 PM
Would you be right to judge her if she did?Why are you jumping to the conclusion that I am judging?

If we are making the statement that the Law is still in effect because it defines sin, then what, in the law, is NOT sin? My point is to clarify that we tend to look at the 10 commandments to define sin, but it is not consistent. I personally know plenty who champion the 10, but do not follow the OT law...specifically the Law about the Sabbath, aside from simply attending church on Sunday.

I didn't say the Law was still in effect. I just said that sin is still sin thus making the ten commandments stand in terms of stating God's will. Are you saying that because the Mosaic Covenant-the Law, has been replaced with a New Covenant-Jesus, that the ten commandments no longer are valid in terms of declaring God's will, or defining what is sinful?

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 03:01 PM
Do you keep the Sabbath as it is defined by the Old Law?

I guess my communication skill are far worse than I thought if you even need to ask me that after all I have posted in here.....lol

Being amongst the poor I am running a little shy on sheep and so far have been unable to catch a dove in my yard, little things are fast....keep gettin away

I mean no, I do not keep the Sabbath as described in the Mosaic Law.

Sin is still sin, regardless of what Covenant we are under. The means to deal with sin however is now by the New Covenant, through Christ.

RollTide21
Jun 8th 2011, 03:06 PM
I guess my communication skill are far worse than I thought if you even need to ask me that after all I have posted in here.....lol

Being amongst the poor I am running a little shy on sheep and so far have been unable to catch a dove in my yard, little things are fast....keep gettin away

I mean no, I do not keep the Sabbath as described in the Mosaic Law.

Sin is still sin, regardless of what Covenant we are under. The means to deal with sin however is now by the New Covenant, through Christ.I'm with you. The Law highlighted sin. The Spirit is our strength against sin. I only wanted to stress that we need not by concerned with following the LETTER of the Law in order NOT to sin. Following the Spirit keeps us in the Spirit of the Law in all that we do.

Thanks, quiet dove. Bless you.

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 03:06 PM
Why are you jumping to the conclusion that I am judging?

If we are making the statement that the Law is still in effect because it defines sin, then what, in the law, is NOT sin? My point is to clarify that we tend to look at the 10 commandments to define sin, but it is not consistent. I personally know plenty who champion the 10, but do not follow the OT law...specifically the Law about the Sabbath, aside from simply attending church on Sunday.



I'm am so sorry, I accidentally hit edit instead of reply and I messed up your post, My most humble apology. I tried to get your post back but can't.

And now I am really confused, I don't know who posted what. :confused

My bad? :eek: bad bad

RollTide21
Jun 8th 2011, 03:07 PM
I'm am so sorry, I accidentally hit edit instead of reply and I messed up your post, I most humble apology. I tried to get your post back but can't.LOL. It's OK. I understand your point of view.

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2011, 03:17 PM
We have the Holy Spirit

That would then be in agreement with the following.

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2011, 03:22 PM
The glory of the Law was dependent upon the flesh, the glory of the New Covenant is dependent upon Christ. But the ten commandments still apply in that they declare God's will, which has not changed. They are no longer written in stone, they are written on the hearts of those who are in Christ Jesus. What vanished away is God's means of dealing with the fact that men cannot keep the ten commandments, not the ten commandments because sin is still sin. The problem was never with the ten commandments, the problem was with mens inability to obey them

It is written that they are done away.

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

It is the ten commandment that were glorious, if the ten commandments are done away they can no longer be glorious.

Firstfruits

RollTide21
Jun 8th 2011, 03:27 PM
I'm am so sorry, I accidentally hit edit instead of reply and I messed up your post, My most humble apology. I tried to get your post back but can't.

And now I am really confused, I don't know who posted what. :confused

My bad? :eek: bad bad:lol:

It's all good.

It's a good discussion, I think. Do the 10 commandments DEFINE sin? You have made it clear that you grasp that the Holy Spirit is our guide into righteousness. But...what is UNrighteousness? If we live by the Spirit, obviously we will not steal, murder, cheat, commit adultery, bear false witness, covet, etc. These are characteristics of someone who is NOT walking by the Spirit. Where does "Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it Holy" come into the picture? Is what defines sin JUST the 10 commandments?

I would say that what defines sin is whatever is contrary to the Spirit. If we focus on being led by Christ, we perfectly fulfill the Law. I wouldn't say, however, that defining sin by using the 10 commandments is some sort of damning doctrine. It's basically just semantics, really, I guess.

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2011, 03:28 PM
Exactly, the Law is no longer written on stone, it is written on our hearts by the Spirit, it did not disappear with the New Covenant, nor did the ten commandments. Sin is still sin.

That which was written in tables of stone is a ministration of death and is not the same as the spirit of God. can we have life by keeping the ten commandments?

2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

The ten commandments was glorious.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2011, 03:33 PM
:lol:

It's all good.

It's a good discussion, I think. Do the 10 commandments DEFINE sin? You have made it clear that you grasp that the Holy Spirit is our guide into righteousness. But...what is UNrighteousness? If we live by the Spirit, obviously we will not steal, murder, cheat, commit adultery, bear false witness, covet, etc. These are characteristics of someone who is NOT walking by the Spirit. Where does "Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it Holy" come into the picture? Is what defines sin JUST the 10 commandments?

I would say that what defines sin is whatever is contrary to the Spirit. If we focus on being led by Christ, we perfectly fulfill the Law. I wouldn't say, however, that defining sin by using the 10 commandments is some sort of damning doctrine. It's basically just semantics, really, I guess.

There is definately a difference between the ten commandments and the spirit.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The ten commandment are, thou shalt not ect.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 03:36 PM
That which was written in tables of stone is a ministration of death and is not the same as the spirit of God. can we have life by keeping the ten commandments?

2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

The ten commandments was glorious.

Firstfruits

No, we cannot. Would that not be calling God a liar in that He has stated, all men sin. We must also consider into this that men are separated from God because they have a sinful nature with in them. So even IF a person did manage to keep the ten commandments, which would include even the thoughts within their mind and heart, we would still not contain or be able to obtain the righteousness of Christ. We must also remember that we are to be obedient in every way, which means never straying from the will of God and we can stray from His will and never have broken any of the ten commandments. When ever we put our desires before His, even just in thought, we have sinned because we have gone contrary to the will of God. We don't have to commit murder, adulter, worship another God and so on to sin, we just have to have the slightest thought contrary to God's will.

Even obeying the ten commandments will not cleanse our sinful nature that we are born with. Only Christ can cleans us, covering us with His righteousness, thus we are reborn unto life everlasting and reunited with our holy and righteous Creator. The ten commandments explain to us what sin is, and thus we can then see that God is right to call us sinners in need of Redemption. The Law was unable to do this(cleans), the Law was a teacher of the One to come, who could and would provide the way for us to be cleansed.

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2011, 03:44 PM
No, we cannot. Would that not be calling God a liar in that He has stated, all men sin. We must also consider into this that men are separated from God because they have a sinful nature with in them. So even IF a person did manage to keep the ten commandments, which would include even the thoughts within their mind and heart, we would still not contain or be able to obtain the righteousness of Christ. We must also remember that we are to be obedient in every way, which means never straying from the will of God and we can stray from His will and never have broken any of the ten commandments. When ever we put our desires before His, even just in thought, we have sinned because we have gone contrary to the will of God. We don't have to commit murder, adulter, worship another God and so on to sin, we just have to have the slightest thought contrary to God's will.

Even obeying the ten commandments will not cleanse our sinful nature that we are born with. Only Christ can cleans us, covering us with His righteousness, thus we are reborn unto life everlasting and reunited with our holy and righteous Creator. The ten commandments explain to us what sin is, and thus we can then see that God is right to call us sinners in need of Redemption. The Law was unable to do this, the Law was a teacher of the One to come, who could and would provide the way for us to be cleansed.

So if the ten commandments is the spirit we have in us we have no hope of life, only death because that is what it is, a ministration of death which cannot give life.

The spirit we are given does give life.

Firstfruits

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 03:50 PM
Lets throw this thought into the mix


1) to cease, desist, rest
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to cease
1a2) to rest, desist (from labour)
1b) (Niphal) to cease
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to cause to cease, put an end to
1c2) to exterminate, destroy
1c3) to cause to desist from
1c4) to remove
1c5) to cause to fail
2) (Qal) to keep or observe the sabbath

shâbath
shaw-bath'
A primitive root; to repose, that is, desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causatively, figuratively or specifically): - (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.


If we combine the definition as a whole, could it not be applied to our lives in that we are to remember we are in Christ, thus holy. We are to "cease" from our labors in that we are to "rest" in Christ. In other words, anything that we do for God is done by the power and strength of Christ, done by the power of the Spirit with in us. And this is not "a day" it actually defines the new creature that we are

Does that make sense?

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 03:53 PM
So if the ten commandments is the spirit we have in us we have no hope of life, only death because that is what it is, a ministration of death which cannot give life.

The spirit we are given does give life.

Firstfruits

I don't think so much that the wording His Law is written on our hearts means it is also the means of our obtaining life. It just means that we understand the Laws of God and since the Spirit is within us and we are reborn unto life, we are able to desire, thus strive for obedience. Life is not in the Law, but by Christ and Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf in that He also paid for every time we would break it, so the Law cannot condemn us because we are in Christ Jesus.

The ten commandments are not the spirit within us, the Spirit within us has written the ten commandments upon our hearts and the Spirit within us helps us to be obedient because the Spirit is the one who gives us understanding of God's will.

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2011, 04:04 PM
I don't think so much that the wording His Law is written on our hearts means it is also the means of our obtaining life. It just means that we understand the Laws of God and since the Spirit is within us and we are reborn unto life, we are able to desire, thus strive for obedience. Life is not in the Law, but by Christ and Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf in that He also paid for every time we would break it, so the Law cannot condemn us because we are in Christ Jesus.

The ten commandments are not the spirit within us, the Spirit within us has written the ten commandments upon our hearts and the Spirit within us helps us to be obedient because the Spirit is the one who gives us understanding of God's will.

The bible says that the Lord is that spirit not the ten commandments.

2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Cor 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The ten commandments will always be that which is written in tables of stone, it will always be a ministration of death.

What do we teach, Jesus or the ten commandments, which way is it to life?

Firstfruits

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 04:22 PM
The bible says that the Lord is that spirit not the ten commandments.

2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Cor 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The ten commandments will always be that which is written in tables of stone, it will always be a ministration of death.

What do we teach, Jesus or the ten commandments, which way is it to life?

Firstfruits

But I have not said the ten commandments are the spirit. The ten commandments, which were written on stone, are now by the Holy Spirit indwelling believers, written upon their hearts, in that they desire to be obedient with an understanding of God's law, of sin.

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

So the way of life is Christ, once in Christ and being cleansed, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, the law is written on our hearts. Or at least the desire to understand, know what sin is, what it means, and how it separates/separated us from God.

It is not an either - or. It is all one package. Life through Christ only. Desire to keep God's commandments, strength and understanding by the Holy Spirit with in us.

RollTide21
Jun 8th 2011, 04:40 PM
But I have not said the ten commandments are the spirit. The ten commandments, which were written on stone, are now by the Holy Spirit indwelling believers, written upon their hearts, in that they desire to be obedient with an understanding of God's law, of sin.

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

So the way of life is Christ, once in Christ and being cleansed, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, the law is written on our hearts. Or at least the desire to understand, know what sin is, what it means, and how it separates/separated us from God.

It is not an either - or. It is all one package. Life through Christ only. Desire to keep God's commandments, strength and understanding by the Holy Spirit with in us.I would clarify one thing:

I don't think I would say "The 10 commandments are written on our hearts". When Jesus said that the Law would be written on our hearts, I would say it means that the righteousness that the Law intended to create will be fulfilled by the Spirit.

Specifically, the 10 commandments, along with the ordinances and regulations of the Old Law, are a list of rules that, if followed, produce a righteous person. It wasn't each specific law that was written on our hearts. It is the Spirit of the whole of the commandments that Christ fulfilled. The righteousness we find in Christ through the Spirit is the righteousness that the whole of the Law was intended to produce. Without Christ, we needed to follow all of the Laws to be righteous. WITH Christ, following the Law isn't necessary because HIS righteousness in us is perfect to fulfill all of the SPIRIT of the Law.

That's how I would separate the Spirit from the SPECIFIC laws listed in the 10 commandments.

I think you and I agree, here, wouldn't you say? It seems to just be, like I said, a matter of semantics.

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 05:03 PM
I would clarify one thing:

I don't think I would say "The 10 commandments are written on our hearts". When Jesus said that the Law would be written on our hearts, I would say it means that the righteousness that the Law intended to create will be fulfilled by the Spirit.

Specifically, the 10 commandments, along with the ordinances and regulations of the Old Law, are a list of rules that, if followed, produce a righteous person. It wasn't each specific law that was written on our hearts. It is the Spirit of the whole of the commandments that Christ fulfilled. The righteousness we find in Christ through the Spirit is the righteousness that the whole of the Law was intended to produce. Without Christ, we needed to follow all of the Laws to be righteous. WITH Christ, following the Law isn't necessary because HIS righteousness in us is perfect to fulfill all of the SPIRIT of the Law.

That's how I would separate the Spirit from the SPECIFIC laws listed in the 10 commandments.

I think you and I agree, here, wouldn't you say? It seems to just be, like I said, a matter of semantics.

If I can click the right button this time I'll respond...lol

I didn't mean that God went to work with an engraver...lol.

That is a very good way to explain it. And I agree. The only thing I would hesitate would be that the Law could produce righteousness in that it could not cleanse as the blood of Christ can. In other words, even under the Law, it was by faith that righteousness was accounted unto a person.

I think it taught us that we needed cleansing. Though I would agree that those men and women of the OT time under the Covenant of the Law that tried to keep it, and desired to be obedient according to God's command, those of faith....were as Abraham and their faith was accounted unto them as righteousness.

So I think we are agreeing but just a matter of wording, which I fall short when it comes to ability of expressing myself. Not to mention understanding to start with.

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2011, 07:07 PM
But I have not said the ten commandments are the spirit. The ten commandments, which were written on stone, are now by the Holy Spirit indwelling believers, written upon their hearts, in that they desire to be obedient with an understanding of God's law, of sin.

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

So the way of life is Christ, once in Christ and being cleansed, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, the law is written on our hearts. Or at least the desire to understand, know what sin is, what it means, and how it separates/separated us from God.

It is not an either - or. It is all one package. Life through Christ only. Desire to keep God's commandments, strength and understanding by the Holy Spirit with in us.

If the ten commandments are written in our heart then we are living with death, it can in no way give life which is the difference between the ten commandments and the spirit.

The spirit is the Lord, the Lord gives life, the Lord dwells with us.

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Through the Lord we are one in his body as long as we abide in his will. What then is his will by which we abide in him? Are we one by keeping the ten commandments? understanding what that truly means.

Firstfruits

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 09:11 PM
If the ten commandments are written in our heart then we are living with death, it can in no way give life which is the difference between the ten commandments and the spirit.

The spirit is the Lord, the Lord gives life, the Lord dwells with us.

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Through the Lord we are one in his body as long as we abide in his will. What then is his will by which we abide in him? Are we one by keeping the ten commandments? understanding what that truly means.

Firstfruits

Ff, I have not said that the ten commandments give us life, not once.

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2011, 09:16 PM
Ff, I have not said that the ten commandments give us life, not once.

What then do the ten commandments do regarding the new testament?

It cannot save, it does not give life, it does not bring us to God, what is ithe purpose for it now that we have the grace of God?

Firstfruits

quiet dove
Jun 8th 2011, 09:26 PM
What then do the ten commandments do regarding the new testament?

It cannot save, it does not give life, it does not bring us to God, what is ithe purpose for it now that we have the grace of God?

Firstfruits

Same thing it did in the OT, teach. Declare God's will. I mean while the Spirit gives us understanding, we still have an entire Bible of God's word. The Spirit guiding our understanding of that word.

Just because we have grace does not make it ok to do as we please, we still are to be obedient to God. Grace is all the more reason to be obedient.

They are also a good witnessing approach to show people what is considered sin, most have broken at least one, even if just in a little matter, it is still broken.

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2011, 09:31 PM
Same thing it did in the OT, teach. Declare God's will. I mean while the Spirit gives us understanding, we still have an entire Bible of God's word. The Spirit guiding our understanding of that word.

Just because we have grace does not make it ok to do as we please, we still are to be obedient to God. Grace is all the more reason to be obedient.

They are also a good witnessing approach to show people what is considered sin, most have broken at least one, even if just in a little matter, it is still broken.


We already have the Holy Spirit to teach us as Jesus said he would. The law was until Christ.

Firstfruits

chad
Jun 9th 2011, 08:27 AM
Romans 8:1-4 (NIV) Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.



Galatians 5:16-25 (NIV) So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29180c)] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Firstfruits
Jun 9th 2011, 08:32 AM
Romans 8:1-4 (NIV) Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.



Galatians 5:16-25 (NIV) So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29180c)] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Amen Chad,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

shepherdsword
Jun 9th 2011, 11:47 AM
Huh? Where'd you get this number from?

http://www.therefinersfire.org/tallit.htm (The Netzari)

It stems from the 613 knots of the tzitziyot

Firstfruits
Jun 9th 2011, 01:40 PM
http://www.therefinersfire.org/tallit.htm (The Netzari)

It stems from the 613 knots of the tzitziyot

The covenant here is the ten commandments.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Deut 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jun 9th 2011, 03:54 PM
The covenant here is the ten commandments.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Deut 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

FirstfruitsThe Ten commandments are ten commandments. The Covenant is not the giving of the commandments or even the promise to obey the commandments. The giving of the commandments and the promise to obey the commandments is an aspect of the larger idea "I will be God to you, and you shall be a people to me." or "I will be your God and you shall be my people" We get the wrong impression if we think that the Covenant is nothing more than the subjugation of a people under a set of rules. The covenant established a relationship between Yahweh and the sons of Jacob.

quiet dove
Jun 9th 2011, 04:21 PM
The Ten commandments are ten commandments. The Covenant is not the giving of the commandments or even the promise to obey the commandments. The giving of the commandments and the promise to obey the commandments is an aspect of the larger idea "I will be God to you, and you shall be a people to me." or "I will be your God and you shall be my people" We get the wrong impression if we think that the Covenant is nothing more than the subjugation of a people under a set of rules. The covenant established a relationship between Yahweh and the sons of Jacob.

Good post :thumbsup:

Firstfruits
Jun 10th 2011, 01:26 PM
The Ten commandments are ten commandments. The Covenant is not the giving of the commandments or even the promise to obey the commandments. The giving of the commandments and the promise to obey the commandments is an aspect of the larger idea "I will be God to you, and you shall be a people to me." or "I will be your God and you shall be my people" We get the wrong impression if we think that the Covenant is nothing more than the subjugation of a people under a set of rules. The covenant established a relationship between Yahweh and the sons of Jacob.

Not according to this scripture.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Firstfruits

shepherdsword
Jun 10th 2011, 01:31 PM
Not according to this scripture.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Firstfruits

Go study some more,there were more commands than 10,all part of the old covenant. Deut 4:13 isn't limiting.

Firstfruits
Jun 10th 2011, 01:38 PM
Go study some more,there were more commands than 10,all part of the old covenant. Deut 4:13 isn't limiting.

This is what Moses said after relating the covenant/the ten commandments to Israel.

Deut 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Firstfruits

shepherdsword
Jun 10th 2011, 01:58 PM
This is what Moses said after relating the covenant/the ten commandments to Israel.

Deut 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Firstfruits

Ex 24:3 And Moses cometh in, and recounteth to the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the judgments, and all the people answer--one voice, and say, 'All the words which Jehovah hath spoken we do.'
Ex 24:4 And Moses writeth all the words of Jehovah, and riseth early in the morning, and buildeth an altar under the hill, and twelve standing pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel;
Ex 24:5 and he sendeth the youths of the sons of Israel, and they cause burnt-offerings to ascend, and sacrifice sacrifices of peace-offerings to Jehovah--calves.
Ex 24:6 And Moses taketh half of the blood, and putteth in basins, and half of the blood hath he sprinkled on the altar;
Ex 24:7 and he taketh the Book of the Covenant, and proclaimeth in the ears of the people, and they say, 'All that which Jehovah hath spoken we do, and obey.'

As can be seen from the passages above there was much more to the old covenant than the 10 commandments. I suggest you read Leviticus as well.

Firstfruits
Jun 10th 2011, 03:16 PM
Ex 24:3 And Moses cometh in, and recounteth to the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the judgments, and all the people answer--one voice, and say, 'All the words which Jehovah hath spoken we do.'
Ex 24:4 And Moses writeth all the words of Jehovah, and riseth early in the morning, and buildeth an altar under the hill, and twelve standing pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel;
Ex 24:5 and he sendeth the youths of the sons of Israel, and they cause burnt-offerings to ascend, and sacrifice sacrifices of peace-offerings to Jehovah--calves.
Ex 24:6 And Moses taketh half of the blood, and putteth in basins, and half of the blood hath he sprinkled on the altar;
Ex 24:7 and he taketh the Book of the Covenant, and proclaimeth in the ears of the people, and they say, 'All that which Jehovah hath spoken we do, and obey.'

As can be seen from the passages above there was much more to the old covenant than the 10 commandments. I suggest you read Leviticus as well.

The covenant is that which is was written on tables of stone.

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

I am not saying that there no other commandments, just that the covenant is the ten commandments.

Firstfruits

shepherdsword
Jun 10th 2011, 03:31 PM
The covenant is that which is was written on tables of stone.

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

I am not saying that there no other commandments, just that the covenant is the ten commandments.

Firstfruits

And what you are saying is in error. It can be plainly sen that the covenant included all of God's commands. In fact Jesus summed up the law in two verses Deut. 6:5 and Lev 19:18. Neither of these verses were written on tablets of stone. I guess he didn't know what the old covenant was :rolleyes:

Firstfruits
Jun 10th 2011, 06:49 PM
And what you are saying is in error. It can be plainly sen that the covenant included all of God's commands. In fact Jesus summed up the law in two verses Deut. 6:5 and Lev 19:18. Neither of these verses were written on tablets of stone. I guess he didn't know what the old covenant was :rolleyes:

It is the ten commandments that Israel were required to perform.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Firstfruits

Amos_with_goats
Jun 10th 2011, 06:55 PM
It is the ten commandments that Israel were required to perform.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Firstfruits

If Exodus 20 were to end at verse 17 this might work out.. but you would have to skip all the way to chapter 32 and tear the parts between from your bible if you wanted it to be so.

Now, of course the instruction to tend the lamp and let it not go out might be irrelevant if you do not have a tabernacle... I personally believe that the same Mind that gave the instruction to the priests also speaks it to us... as a matter of fact...

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Firstfruits
Jun 10th 2011, 07:01 PM
If Exodus 20 were to end at verse 17 this might work out.. but you would have to skip all the way to chapter 32 and tear the parts between from your bible if you wanted it to be so.

Now, of course the instruction to tend the lamp and let it not go out might be irrelevant if you do not have a tabernacle... I personally believe that the same Mind that gave the instruction to the priests also speaks it to us... as a matter of fact...

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

I understand that there are other commandment other that those in the covenant, but the covenant is the ten commandments.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Firstfruits

Amos_with_goats
Jun 10th 2011, 07:15 PM
We never did discuss this much... (you asked a question, but never addressed the content of the post)

What of your teaching in the light of Eph 2? More ominously, Matthew 5>?



And the first had to be taken away before he could establish the second.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Firstfruits

Your point is made apart from the context.

Hebrews 10:8-10

8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

You would teach that Christ abolished what He established... He did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Rather, he made two into one..

Ephesians 2:14-16

Christ Our Peace

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Read the above passage, read the chapter...

You seem to desire to teach something apart from this.... and I believe that your approach is a grave error.

Christ Himself spoke against the teaching you bring here.

Matthew 5:17-20

Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


Please turn from verse 19a, accept 19b. Not from me, but from the clear teaching of Christ Himself.


What is the covenant that God has made old?

Moses did not say that sacrifices and offerings were part of the covenant, only the ten commandments. They were there to go with the covenant, so if the covenant is taken away those additional thing would also go.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 10th 2011, 07:36 PM
We never did discuss this much... (you asked a question, but never addressed the content of the post)

What of your teaching in the light of Eph 2? More ominously, Matthew 5>?

With the law Jew and gentile cannot be one, there is separation as long as it stands according to what God commanded. With the law gone the wall is broken and Jew and gentile can be one and are one in the body od Christ.

With the law the following is not possible.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Firstfruits

Amos_with_goats
Jun 10th 2011, 07:45 PM
With the law Jew and gentile cannot be one, there is separation as long as it stands according to what God commanded. With the law gone the wall is broken and Jew and gentile can be one and are one in the body od Christ.

With the law the following is not possible.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Firstfruits

There is no disagreement on my part with the scriptures you have posted. I wonder what you do with this;

Matthew 5:17-20

Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

You seem to teach something in opposition to V19a, it is as though you would have folks to remove these words from their bible....

Friend, what shall you do with these words in red? Surely you see them>?

Firstfruits
Jun 10th 2011, 07:49 PM
There is no disagreement on my part with the scriptures you have posted. I wonder what you do with this;

Matthew 5:17-20

Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

You seem to teach something in opposition to V19a, it is as though you would have folks to remove these words from their bible....

Friend, what shall you do with these words in red? Surely you see them>?

Key sentence: "Till all is fulfilled" What did Jesus come to fulfil?

Firstfruits

Amos_with_goats
Jun 10th 2011, 08:08 PM
Key sentence: "Till all is fulfilled" What did Jesus come to fulfil?

Firstfruits

Well,

Heaven and earth are still here right? We know that the Lamb was Lamb slain from the foundation of the world... His sacrifice paid the debt, but we are not acquitted until the judgment... so I will answer that "till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Christ has paid our debt... heaven and earth have neither passed nor has ALL been fulfilled... there are still those who remain yet to accept the payment.. and the judgement has not yet taken place.

Many to come to Christ, and much prophecy to be fulfilled... so you might do well to consider all the words of Christ as being valid... especially as the word of the LORD endures forever.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

shepherdsword
Jun 10th 2011, 08:14 PM
I understand that there are other commandment other that those in the covenant, but the covenant is the ten commandments.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Firstfruits

Repeating the same thing over and over ad nausem doesn't make it true. The sign of the covenant was circumcision. It's not mentioned on those tablets of stone.
The sacrifices were part of the covenant. They aren't mentioned on the tablets of stone. In fact nine of the ten commandments are part of the new covenant.

Firstfruits
Jun 10th 2011, 08:16 PM
Well,

Heaven and earth are still here right? We know that the Lamb was Lamb slain from the foundation of the world... His sacrifice paid the debt, but we are not acquitted until the judgment... so I will answer that "till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Christ has paid our debt... heaven and earth have neither passed nor has ALL been fulfilled... there are still those who remain yet to accept the payment.. and the judgement has not yet taken place.

Many to come to Christ, and much prophecy to be fulfilled... so you might do well to consider all the words of Christ as being valid... especially as the word of the LORD endures forever.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and Thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 And that repentance And remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This what Jesus said he fulfilled, as he was sent by God to do.

Jn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Amos_with_goats
Jun 10th 2011, 08:26 PM
....This what Jesus said he fulfilled, as he was sent by God to do.

Jn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Very good friend, and God bless you also.

Let's look at that...

Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

John 17:4-5 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.


Do you see the difference here?

to wit;

-Heaven and earth have not passed away.
-We are still in our natural flesh.
-We yet live with sin nature.

There is still a law, and not a jot or tittle have passed from it.

We are not justificed by it (never were)
We are not saved by it (never were)...

but it remains... has not passed away, as Christ was careful to say;

It has not been abolished.

Firstfruits
Jun 10th 2011, 08:36 PM
Very good friend, and God bless you also.

Let's look at that...

Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

John 17:4-5 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.


Do you see the difference here?

to wit;

-Heaven and earth have not passed away.
-We are still in our natural flesh.
-We yet live with sin nature.

There is still a law, and not a jot or tittle have passed from it.

We are not justificed by it (never were)
We are not saved by it (never were)...

but it remains... has not passed away, as Christ was careful to say;

It has not been abolished.

With what Jesus said in the following, if the law has not been abolished then would you agree that we are still under the law and therefore not yet under grace as we cannot be under both.

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Lk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and Thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 And that repentance And remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Firstfruits

Amos_with_goats
Jun 10th 2011, 08:51 PM
The placing of these verses together seems to cause a contradiction where there is none.


With what Jesus said in the following, if the law has not been abolished then....

I believe that the careful observer will see the error in the fist few words of your post... compare them with; Matthew 5:17 (http://bible.cc/matthew/5-17.htm) :hmm:

RollTide21
Jun 10th 2011, 09:10 PM
Well,

Heaven and earth are still here right? We know that the Lamb was Lamb slain from the foundation of the world... His sacrifice paid the debt, but we are not acquitted until the judgment... so I will answer that "till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Christ has paid our debt... heaven and earth have neither passed nor has ALL been fulfilled... there are still those who remain yet to accept the payment.. and the judgement has not yet taken place.

Many to come to Christ, and much prophecy to be fulfilled... so you might do well to consider all the words of Christ as being valid... especially as the word of the LORD endures forever.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.So then the obvious questions are these:

What is included in "every jot and tittle" of the Law?
Are we to observe all of the commands of "every jot and tittle" since, as you suggest, Scripture clearly indicates that we are to follow the letter of the law until Christ returns?

I understand that you are not talking about justification, here. But, the only logical conclusion that I come to from your post is that you believe that God demands that His Children in Christ follow "every jot and tittle" of the Law. Is this your position?

Amos_with_goats
Jun 10th 2011, 09:42 PM
I believe exactly what the Lord said... they have not passed away.;

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

I believe that the answer to your question requires we accept that the Lord has never changed, and that we begin with an approach that would seek Him in His word without condition....


In The Absence Of The Covenant, What Is There?

"All scripture".... to me that means "all"... not "the scripture that remains after we cut the rest from our bible"

The simple answer to your question is "Love the Lord, Love my neighbor as myself"... the longer answer requires we submit to the Spirit to teach us what the entire Word would show us about how to do that.

chad
Jun 11th 2011, 12:04 AM
Exodus 24:7 writes about the book of the covenant, which included the law and the commandments (24:12). The covenant with Moses included both the law and the commandments.

BroRog
Jun 11th 2011, 02:01 AM
Not according to this scripture.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

FirstfruitsDo you know what a covenant is? What is it?

Firstfruits
Jun 11th 2011, 10:37 AM
Do you know what a covenant is? What is it?

It is a list of things that are required to be done, as in the following scriptures,

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 9:9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

Deut 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

Deut 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

1 Kings 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Do you not agree with what is written that the ten commandments is the covenant.

What do you believe was written on the tables of stone.

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jun 11th 2011, 05:40 PM
It is a list of things that are required to be done, as in the following scriptures,

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 9:9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

Deut 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

Deut 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

1 Kings 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Do you not agree with what is written that the ten commandments is the covenant.

What do you believe was written on the tables of stone.

FirstfruitsI think you will find, upon further review, that a "covenant" is not a list of things that need to be done. A "covenant" is a contract between two people which stipulates what each party will do and what the relationship between each party will be. Because you continue to focus on single verses of scripture taken out of context, you continually miss the significance of what you read. Perhaps upon further investigation you will find other verses in which God says to Israel, "I will be your God and you will be my people." This is the actual covenant itself. Moses refers to the the tables of stone as the tables of the covenant, not because the Ten commandments are the sum and substance of the covenant, but due to the fact that Moses is constantly reminding Israel of their side of the agreement. The Ten Commandments aren't the complete covenant, they are only one side of it -- what Israel must obey. The other side of the covenant is what God says he will do in exchange.

To answer your original question, in the absence of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments remain because the Ten Commandments represent the moral vision of God himself and each human being is obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, not because we have a covenant with God, but because the Ten Commandments are intrinsically moral. Whether a nation or a people has a contract with God or not, it is ALWAYS wrong to murder, always wrong to steal, always wrong to bear false witness, always wrong to covet your neighbors wife always wrong to sleep with your neighbor's wife, always wrong to dishonor your parents, always wrong to commit idolatry, always wrong to represent God using a token from the creation.

zeke77
Jun 11th 2011, 06:09 PM
To answer your original question, in the absence of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments remain because...
if the ten commandments remain are christians required to keep the seventh day?

Firstfruits
Jun 11th 2011, 07:11 PM
I think you will find, upon further review, that a "covenant" is not a list of things that need to be done. A "covenant" is a contract between two people which stipulates what each party will do and what the relationship between each party will be. Because you continue to focus on single verses of scripture taken out of context, you continually miss the significance of what you read. Perhaps upon further investigation you will find other verses in which God says to Israel, "I will be your God and you will be my people." This is the actual covenant itself. Moses refers to the the tables of stone as the tables of the covenant, not because the Ten commandments are the sum and substance of the covenant, but due to the fact that Moses is constantly reminding Israel of their side of the agreement. The Ten Commandments aren't the complete covenant, they are only one side of it -- what Israel must obey. The other side of the covenant is what God says he will do in exchange.

To answer your original question, in the absence of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments remain because the Ten Commandments represent the moral vision of God himself and each human being is obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, not because we have a covenant with God, but because the Ten Commandments are intrinsically moral. Whether a nation or a people has a contract with God or not, it is ALWAYS wrong to murder, always wrong to steal, always wrong to bear false witness, always wrong to covet your neighbors wife always wrong to sleep with your neighbor's wife, always wrong to dishonor your parents, always wrong to commit idolatry, always wrong to represent God using a token from the creation.

So you believe that all are obligated to keep the ministration of DEATH?

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 9:9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

Is there another covenant that has been abolished that was written on tables of stone?

Firstfruits

zeke77
Jun 11th 2011, 07:51 PM
Is there another covenant that has been abolished that was written on tables of stone?

Firstfruits
there is a "new covenant" written into the heart.


This prophesy was fulfilled by Jesus Christ who came to bring the New Covenant and to be the true sacrifice for the sins of the world: "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 'This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,' then He adds, 'Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.' Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" (Hebrews 10:14-23).

Firstfruits
Jun 11th 2011, 08:18 PM
there is a "new covenant" written into the heart.


This prophesy was fulfilled by Jesus Christ who came to bring the New Covenant and to be the true sacrifice for the sins of the world: "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 'This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,' then He adds, 'Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.' Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" (Hebrews 10:14-23).

If the new covenant is more glorious than that which was written on stone, what is the new covenant, as we are told what was written on stone?

Firstfruits

fewarechosen
Jun 11th 2011, 09:04 PM
the new covenant is the word being written in our hearts - holy spirit. thats why its so much better than stone tablets.

the holy spirit teaches me that the new covenant is to love my neighbor as myself. the list of sins that he reveals to me is much bigger than a list of ten but all are covered.

the first was written in stone and man let god down and he found fault with the covenant. second time around he said you know what you arent going to follow it if i wrote it on stone so im gonna scribe it on your heart. the holy spirit covers all 10 commandments and more inside you.

do you not kill because its written on a stone ? or because it just doesnt feel right ? thats the dif in the covenant.

the more you purify your eye the more you will use it the more you will be able to discern good and evil the more sin will be revealed. we grow in christ.

Servant89
Jun 11th 2011, 09:22 PM
, in the absence of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments remain because the Ten Commandments represent the moral vision of God himself and each human being is obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, .

Only the people that are UNDER THE LAW are OBLIGATED to keep them or else. Under grace, this is what the NT declares...

Old Testament vs New Testament

2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

We are now driven from the inside, by the spirit, motivating us to do the right thing BECAUSE WE WANT TO, not because we HAVE TO. We Christians are not obligated to keep the law under penalty of condemnation. We are not obligated to keep the 10 commandments in order to justify us. We found out that once we are filled with the spirit of the living God, there is no need to motivate us through the fear of the law, but love (born of the Spirit inside us) is a far more powerful motivator to do the right thing.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Rom 8:1 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Heb 10:14 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Give God the benefit of the doubt, thrust him, assume that the Holy Spirit alone, without the law written in stone, is capable of writting God's laws inside us so that we finally do them (as planned) because we love to do them. Doing the commandments without actually loving doing them, does not impress God (Deu 28:47).


Acts 15:24 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


Shalom

zeke77
Jun 11th 2011, 11:23 PM
...what is the new covenant, as we are told what was written on stone?


"After supper, [Jesus] took another cup of wine and said, 'This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you – an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you...Now that we are under the new covenant, we are not under the penalty of the law. We are now given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift...For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”

Nihil Obstat
Jun 12th 2011, 12:57 AM
http://www.therefinersfire.org/tallit.htm (The Netzari)

It stems from the 613 knots of the tzitziyot

No, I knew of the 613 OT laws, but from where'd you get 1050 NT laws? Thanks.

shepherdsword
Jun 12th 2011, 01:00 AM
No, I knew of the 613 OT laws, but from where'd you get 1050 NT laws? Thanks.

No I didn't go through and count them if that's what you mean :lol: I got it from the Dakes Annotated study Bible.

Nihil Obstat
Jun 12th 2011, 01:14 AM
Just wondering. Appreciate it!

BroRog
Jun 12th 2011, 02:19 AM
if the ten commandments remain are christians required to keep the seventh day?The fourth commandment is to remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. The Sabbath Day is the time of peace, prosperity, life, human flourishing, happiness and such as these, which God promised to give to those who believe in Jesus Christ. It's a future time of "rest". All human beings are to remember that Day and keep it in mind. Israel, however, is the only group of people who are obligated to remember that day via a weekly ritual every seventh day of the week.

BroRog
Jun 12th 2011, 02:23 AM
So you believe that all are obligated to keep the ministration of DEATH?

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 9:9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

Is there another covenant that has been abolished that was written on tables of stone?

FirstfruitsAgain, I want to emphasize that you will continue to misunderstand these things if you continue to take verses out of context. What do you think the term "ministration" means? And why does Paul talk about a "ministration of death?"

BroRog
Jun 12th 2011, 02:25 AM
the new covenant is the word being written in our hearts - holy spirit. thats why its so much better than stone tablets.

the holy spirit teaches me that the new covenant is to love my neighbor as myself. the list of sins that he reveals to me is much bigger than a list of ten but all are covered.

the first was written in stone and man let god down and he found fault with the covenant. second time around he said you know what you arent going to follow it if i wrote it on stone so im gonna scribe it on your heart. the holy spirit covers all 10 commandments and more inside you.

do you not kill because its written on a stone ? or because it just doesnt feel right ? thats the dif in the covenant.

the more you purify your eye the more you will use it the more you will be able to discern good and evil the more sin will be revealed. we grow in christ.According to Jeremiah 31, the New Covenant is the law, not the word written on the hearts of those in the house of Judah and the house of Israel.

Servant89
Jun 12th 2011, 02:28 AM
This is why the stuff written in stone had to go...

This is what the Bible says about God's Commandments (our schoolmaster):

a. They bring God's wrath upon us (Rom 4:15)
b. They are our enemy (Eph 2:15)
c. They make sin strong in our life (Rom 7:8-11)
d. Cause us to sin (Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13,20; Rom 7:8; 1Jo 3:4)
e. Rule over us (Gal 3:24-25; Rom 7:1; Gal 4:9-11)
f. Bring death to us (Rom 7:10; 2Cor 3:6-7)
g. Curse us (Gal 3:10)
h. They are not of faith (Gal 3:12)
i. They are against us (Col 2:14)
j. They condemn us (2Co 3:9)
k. Can not justify us (Rom 3:20,28)
l. Doing the commandments do not and can not bring miracles (Gal 3:1-6; Mat 11:13; John 10:41)

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 12th 2011, 02:34 AM
According to Jeremiah 31, the New Covenant is the law, not the word written on the hearts of those in the house of Judah and the house of Israel.

The new covenant is removing the law written in stone and writting it in the hearts of people, so that they no longer have to do the right thing out of fear of the law, but now we do the right thing because we want to, not because we have to. Big difference.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That is called being born again. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus, you are a Bible teacher in Israel and you do not know this?

Shalom

BroRog
Jun 12th 2011, 02:43 AM
The new covenant is removing the law written in stone and writting it in the hearts of people, so that they no longer have to do the right thing out of fear of the law, but now we do the right thing because we want to, not because we have to. Big difference.What do you mean "we"? The verses you cited are talking about the house of Judah and the house of Israel.

BroRog
Jun 12th 2011, 04:29 AM
So you believe that all are obligated to keep the ministration of DEATH?

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 9:9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

Is there another covenant that has been abolished that was written on tables of stone?

FirstfruitsI'll ask you what I asked Ecc. 12; what do you think of Paul's view here in Romans 14?

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled [the] law. 9 For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of [the] law.

Firstfruits
Jun 12th 2011, 08:06 AM
the new covenant is the word being written in our hearts - holy spirit. thats why its so much better than stone tablets.

the holy spirit teaches me that the new covenant is to love my neighbor as myself. the list of sins that he reveals to me is much bigger than a list of ten but all are covered.

the first was written in stone and man let god down and he found fault with the covenant. second time around he said you know what you arent going to follow it if i wrote it on stone so im gonna scribe it on your heart. the holy spirit covers all 10 commandments and more inside you.

do you not kill because its written on a stone ? or because it just doesnt feel right ? thats the dif in the covenant.

the more you purify your eye the more you will use it the more you will be able to discern good and evil the more sin will be revealed. we grow in christ.

Thanks Fewarechosen,

So as it is written, by loving as Jesus has commanded us, all the law is fulfilled?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 12th 2011, 08:10 AM
Only the people that are UNDER THE LAW are OBLIGATED to keep them or else. Under grace, this is what the NT declares...

Old Testament vs New Testament

2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

We are now driven from the inside, by the spirit, motivating us to do the right thing BECAUSE WE WANT TO, not because we HAVE TO. We Christians are not obligated to keep the law under penalty of condemnation. We are not obligated to keep the 10 commandments in order to justify us. We found out that once we are filled with the spirit of the living God, there is no need to motivate us through the fear of the law, but love (born of the Spirit inside us) is a far more powerful motivator to do the right thing.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Rom 8:1 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Heb 10:14 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Give God the benefit of the doubt, thrust him, assume that the Holy Spirit alone, without the law written in stone, is capable of writting God's laws inside us so that we finally do them (as planned) because we love to do them. Doing the commandments without actually loving doing them, does not impress God (Deu 28:47).


Acts 15:24 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


Shalom

We are always reminded of the law of Moses, yet not so with what Jesus commanded the disciples and what they have commanded us.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 12th 2011, 08:14 AM
I'll ask you what I asked Ecc. 12; what do you think of Paul's view here in Romans 14?

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled [the] law. 9 For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of [the] law.

This about the Royal law given by Jesus which we are all aware of.

It is the difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ.

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jun 12th 2011, 03:49 PM
This about the Royal law given by Jesus which we are all aware of.

It is the difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ.

FirstfruitsIf Law = covenant as you suggest, then Paul is saying that "he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the covenant."

Firstfruits
Jun 12th 2011, 04:31 PM
If Law = covenant as you suggest, then Paul is saying that "he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the covenant."

The Royal law is not the old covenant.

Firstfruits

zeke77
Jun 12th 2011, 04:44 PM
The fourth commandment is to remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. The Sabbath Day is the time of peace, prosperity, life, human flourishing, happiness and such as these, which God promised to give to those who believe in Jesus Christ. It's a future time of "rest". All human beings are to remember that Day and keep it in mind. Israel, however, is the only group of people who are obligated to remember that day via a weekly ritual every seventh day of the week.
Then we agree the ‘ten commandment law’ was given to the nation of Israel alone and Christians are not under the Law of Moses with the requirement "to remember that day via a weekly ritual every seventh day of the week”?

Servant89
Jun 12th 2011, 05:20 PM
What do you mean "we"? The verses you cited are talking about the house of Judah and the house of Israel.

See post # 99.

Peace

Servant89
Jun 12th 2011, 05:22 PM
We are always reminded of the law of Moses, yet not so with what Jesus commanded the disciples and what they have commanded us.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

So true!!!! For every time we are reminded that in loving others we fulfil the entire law.... there are 30 sermons reminding us of the law written in stone.

God bless you too man!

peace

Firstfruits
Jun 12th 2011, 05:34 PM
Then we agree the ‘ten commandment law’ was given to the nation of Israel alone and Christians are not under the Law of Moses with the requirement "to remember that day via a weekly ritual every seventh day of the week”?


So in the absence of the the ten commandment law, what is there?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 12th 2011, 05:41 PM
So true!!!! For every time we are reminded that in loving others we fulfil the entire law.... there are 30 sermons reminding us of the law written in stone.

God bless you too man!

peace

For some that hold to the ten commandments, it has been noted that those that do not keep the Sabbath because it is not taught in the New covenant, does that not automatically make that covenant invalid knowing that God has commanded that it cannot be added to or taken away from or else it is broken?

Firstfruits

zeke77
Jun 12th 2011, 06:57 PM
So in the absence of the the ten commandment law, what is there?

Firstfruits
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. (Galatians 6)

Firstfruits
Jun 12th 2011, 07:20 PM
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. (Galatians 6)

So the law of Christ is what Christ has commanded rather than what Moses has commanded, is that right?

Firstfruits

zeke77
Jun 12th 2011, 07:38 PM
So the law of Christ is what Christ has commanded rather than what Moses has commanded, is that right?

Firstfruits
The law of Christ is the more compete revelation - Christ is faithful over God's house as a son.
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house. For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses-as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope. (Heb 3)

Firstfruits
Jun 13th 2011, 09:03 AM
The law of Christ is the more compete revelation - Christ is faithful over God's house as a son.
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house. For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses-as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope. (Heb 3)

And what then is the law of Christ?

Firstfruits

Servant89
Jun 13th 2011, 01:03 PM
And what then is the law of Christ?

Firstfruits

Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

2 Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

Shalom

Firstfruits
Jun 13th 2011, 01:22 PM
Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

2 Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

Shalom

So in the absence of the law of Moses, we have the law of Christ?

Firstfruits

Servant89
Jun 13th 2011, 03:58 PM
So in the absence of the law of Moses, we have the law of Christ?

Firstfruits

Yes which means, we need to get filled with the Holy Spirit again and again (see acts 2 and acts 4:31), because it is the Holy Spirit the one that provides the power inside us to love others and have the law of love written in our hearts.

At the end, it is all about him. He is the answer to all our problems. All the things will be added unto us, if we do that one thing right.

Lord Jesus... Fill me with your spirit... Amen.

Peace

RollTide21
Jun 13th 2011, 04:43 PM
Yes which means, we need to get filled with the Holy Spirit again and again (see acts 2 and acts 4:31), because it is the Holy Spirit the one that provides the power inside us to love others and have the law of love written in our hearts.

At the end, it is all about him. He is the answer to all our problems. All the things will be added unto us, if we do that one thing right.

Lord Jesus... Fill me with your spirit... Amen.

Peace
Romans 8:

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Firstfruits
Jun 13th 2011, 05:51 PM
Yes which means, we need to get filled with the Holy Spirit again and again (see acts 2 and acts 4:31), because it is the Holy Spirit the one that provides the power inside us to love others and have the law of love written in our hearts.

At the end, it is all about him. He is the answer to all our problems. All the things will be added unto us, if we do that one thing right.

Lord Jesus... Fill me with your spirit... Amen.

Peace

Amen!!!

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 15th 2011, 07:52 PM
Is what God commanded us to do concerning Jesus and his command to us not enough for believers?

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Firstfruits