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Firstfruits
Jun 16th 2011, 03:11 PM
With regards to the following scriptures, if the following still apply what does it mean for those that are not Jews, or of the nation of Israel?

Deut 4:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

Deut 6:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

Deut 11:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deut 30:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=30&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 16th 2011, 07:17 PM
According to the following only by keeping the commandments, statues and judgments is Israel a holy and special people unto God.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deut 7:11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

So how does that affect non jews?

Firstfruits

keck553
Jun 16th 2011, 08:20 PM
Sorry, FF, but I am so weary of this argument that I just can't become part of it.

Firstfruits
Jun 16th 2011, 08:27 PM
Sorry, FF, but I am so weary of this argument that I just can't become part of it.

Just answer this one question, does it affect non Jews or not?

Firstfruits

manichunter
Jun 16th 2011, 08:27 PM
With regards to the following scriptures, if the following still apply what does it mean for those that are not Jews, or of the nation of Israel?

Deut 4:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

Deut 6:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

Deut 11:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deut 30:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=30&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

A study to show oneself approved has to be the first order of business before approaching this subject with a wise response. A person has to know the difference between a commandment, statue, testimony, and judgments/charge. Most just heap them into one big "its the Law" without understanding the body of the Torah's many parts. The Torah is indeed one, but it composed of many parts similar to the composition of the laws of man broken down into various parts. In our society we have the Law of the land which is broken down into various parts called criminal, civil, health code, city ordinances, and so on.

If the Torah is not studied and understood from a 4,000 year ago prospective, then these scriptures will not be properly understood in regards to their context, application, and interpretation.

A person should not attempt to understand these Scripture from today's mainstream christian views and traditional thoughts. It would lead to a reinforcement of preconceived and established thoughts, getting a person no where without aid of the Holy Spirit granting integral revelation of what Torah meant in its various parts and how it was to be established as a doctrine.

In plain text, God Himself established a simply way of how to live a moral, wise, healthy, and profitable life contradicting the rest of the mankind in part. The world establishes and follows their own patterns of life as intended by their own whims, lusts, and attitudes.

I had to ask. Who established these things in the text you posted? In contrast, who has established most of today's traditional Christian thoughts and practices, like Christmas and etc.

It is a definite challenge to understand Torah, I admit especially with Torah being discorded, belittled, and ignored by today's prevalent paradigms of thought, but it is indeed rewarding to grasp in the enter workings of God's courts.

Love, Ryan

keck553
Jun 16th 2011, 08:29 PM
Just answer this one question, does it affect non Jews or not?

Firstfruits

No, I won't answer.. an entire work of God can not be condensed like Campbell's tomato soup and thrown in the discount rack. Sorry.

Firstfruits
Jun 16th 2011, 08:36 PM
A study to show oneself approved has to be the first order of business before approaching this subject with a wise response. A person has to know the difference between a commandment, statue, testimony, and judgments/charge. Most just heap them into one big "its the Law" without understanding the body of the Torah's many parts. The Torah is indeed one, but it composed of many parts similar to the composition of the laws of man broken down into various parts. In our society we have the Law of the land which is broken down into various parts called criminal, civil, health code, city ordinances, and so on.

If the Torah is not studied and understood from a 4,000 year ago prospective, then these scriptures will not be properly understood in regards to their context, application, and interpretation.

A person should not attempt to understand these Scripture from today's mainstream christian views and traditional thoughts. It would lead to a reinforcement of preconceived and established thoughts, getting a person no where without aid of the Holy Spirit granting integral revelation of what Torah meant in its various parts and how it was to be established as a doctrine.

In plain text, God Himself established a simply way of how to live a moral, wise, healthy, and profitable life contradicting the rest of the mankind in part. The world establishes and follows their own patterns of life as intended by their own whims, lusts, and attitudes.

I had to ask. Who established these things in the text you posted? In contrast, who has established most of today's traditional Christian thoughts and practices, like Christmas and etc.

It is a definite challenge to understand Torah, I admit especially with Torah being discorded, belittled, and ignored by today's prevalent paradigms of thought, but it is indeed rewarding to grasp in the enter workings of God's courts.

Love, Ryan

Thank you Ryan,

I believe it is important to understand Gods commandments, statues and judgments and how they affect non Jews as long as they stand.

Firstfruits

manichunter
Jun 16th 2011, 08:38 PM
Just answer this one question, does it affect non Jews or not?

Firstfruits

I will take a shot at it........... God's People and anyone who claiming such by identity. Who did it affect then when the text was written. What was the composition of those that went into the wilderness from Egypt. Where they all Israelites?
What provision did God make for the mixed multitude? What expectation did God have upon the gentile that lived in the promise land?

I would say, it affected everyone within the borders of Israel in that day, without exception. Now, however, no one agrees as to where the borders of Israel are (I am not talking about natural borders). In addition, the gentiles claim there own inheritances and lands. I use plural here for a reason because not even various Christian entities agree on the inheritance.

Without borders, everything goes and we do not know who it affects or don't affect. LOL

I agree with Keck. This subject is one left for self discovery. It either raises an eyebrow of curiosity or flashes the red sign of danger Will Robertson which causes the normal flight or fight reflects.

Firstfruits
Jun 16th 2011, 08:41 PM
No, I won't answer.. an entire work of God can not be condensed like Campbell's tomato soup and thrown in the discount rack. Sorry.

Even if what God sent Jesus to do changes how it affects non Jews?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 16th 2011, 08:46 PM
I will take a shot at it........... God's People and anyone who claiming such by identity. Who did it affect then when the text was written. What was the composition of those that went into the wilderness from Egypt. Where they all Israelites?
What provision did God make for the mixed multitude? What expectation did God have upon the gentile that lived in the promise land?

I would say, it affected everyone within the borders of Israel in that day, without exception. Now, however, no one agrees as to where the borders of Israel are (I am not talking about natural borders). In addition, the gentiles claim there own inheritances and lands. I use plural here for a reason because not even various Christian entities agree on the inheritance.

Without borders, everything goes and we do not know who it affects or don't affect. LOL

I agree with Keck. This subject is one left for self discovery. It either raises an eyebrow of curiosity or flashes the red sign of danger Will Robertson which causes the normal flight or fight reflects.

It has a strong bearing on the state of gentiles which was not changed until God sent Jesus.

Firstfruits

keck553
Jun 16th 2011, 11:50 PM
Even if what God sent Jesus to do changes how it affects non Jews?

Firstfruits

You'll need to define "change" so we can be in the same context.

Firstfruits
Jun 17th 2011, 08:16 AM
You'll need to define "change" so we can be in the same context.



With regards to nations outside of Israel, Gods statute demands separation, Jew and Gentile cannot be one. The following scripture teaches us that there must be a change in order to receive the adoption of sons (Gentiles).

Gal 4:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 17th 2011, 01:36 PM
As long as Gods statutes stand, all that Jesus has done that would involve Gentiles and Jews together would be in vain.

When God gave his commandments, statues and judgments, he commanded that they could not be added to or taken away from.

God bless!

Firstfruits

keck553
Jun 17th 2011, 03:25 PM
It has a strong bearing on the state of gentiles which was not changed until God sent Jesus.

Firstfruits

So the Gentiles that attached themselves to the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob before Christ weren't 'changed?'
I beg to differ with you.

keck553
Jun 17th 2011, 03:29 PM
With regards to nations outside of Israel, Gods statute demands separation, Jew and Gentile cannot be one.
Firstfruits

This statement simply is not true. Sorry. Go back to the Pentateuch and highlight everywhere "foreigner" appears then re-read it.

Firstfruits
Jun 17th 2011, 06:35 PM
This statement simply is not true. Sorry. Go back to the Pentateuch and highlight everywhere "foreigner" appears then re-read it.

Gentiles and Jews cannot be one.

Deuteronomy 7:1-6
1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girga****es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them:

3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Firstfruits

keck553
Jun 17th 2011, 09:56 PM
Gentiles and Jews cannot be one.

Firstfruits

What's Ruth doing in David's geneology then? Heck, forget David, she's in Jesus geneology.

Tell me again about Gentiles?

Firstfruits
Jun 18th 2011, 11:24 AM
What's Ruth doing in David's geneology then? Heck, forget David, she's in Jesus geneology.

Tell me again about Gentiles?

OK!

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 19th 2011, 08:02 AM
According to the following scripture, the stautes/ordinances/commandments have been nailed to the cross.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Where does that leave the judgments?

Firstfruits

chad
Jun 19th 2011, 09:21 AM
In Christ, there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek/Gentile (Romans Chapters 10-12).


(Rom 10:11 KJV) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. (13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Firstfruits
Jun 19th 2011, 03:27 PM
In Christ, there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek/Gentile (Romans Chapters 10-12).


(Rom 10:11 KJV) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. (13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Thank you Chad,

So with the commandments, statures and judgments there is a difference between Jew and Gentile?

Firstfruits

keck553
Jun 19th 2011, 10:45 PM
OK!

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Firstfruits
God didn't made those rules. Surely you can discern between God's law and men's religious ordinances, can't you?

God did say something about Moabites though. Read Deuteronomy 23. By the way, do you know where Moabites came from? Now, why do you think God blessed Ruth, the Moabite?

chad
Jun 20th 2011, 06:38 AM
In the early church, there was a difference of opinion, regarding Circumcision, The Law, Food sacrificed to idols, Eating of certain foods etc... Paul addresses these in his writings, being an apostle to the gentiles.



Thank you Chad,

So with the commandments, statures and judgments there is a difference between Jew and Gentile?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 20th 2011, 01:04 PM
God didn't made those rules. Surely you can discern between God's law and men's religious ordinances, can't you?

God did say something about Moabites though. Read Deuteronomy 23. By the way, do you know where Moabites came from? Now, why do you think God blessed Ruth, the Moabite?

So was there was nothing that would prevent the adoption of sons?

Gal 4:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 20th 2011, 01:07 PM
In the early church, there was a difference of opinion, regarding Circumcision, The Law, Food sacrificed to idols, Eating of certain foods etc... Paul addresses these in his writings, being an apostle to the gentiles.

If Jews are required to observe those things, is that separation/difference still there?

Firstfruits

keck553
Jun 20th 2011, 03:22 PM
So was there was nothing that would prevent the adoption of sons?

Gal 4:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Firstfruits

There are too many Gentiles in pre-Jesus times who became part of Israel to say otherwise. Of course they all came under the Sinai covenant when they joined Israel. Ruth included. Maybe you're thinking of another kind of adoption?

Firstfruits
Jun 20th 2011, 07:54 PM
There are too many Gentiles in pre-Jesus times who became part of Israel to say otherwise. Of course they all came under the Sinai covenant when they joined Israel. Ruth included. Maybe you're thinking of another kind of adoption?

Why do you believe that God sent Jesus to free those under the law that we might be adopted into the family of God.

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

What is written in the law that would prevent the adoption of sons?

Firstfruits

keck553
Jun 20th 2011, 08:23 PM
Why do you believe that God sent Jesus to free those under the law that we might be adopted into the family of God.

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

What is written in the law that would prevent the adoption of sons?

Firstfruits

You said 'free' the verse you cited says "redeem." Fix it and ask again please.

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 07:48 AM
You said 'free' the verse you cited says "redeem." Fix it and ask again please.

May I ask what is the difference between redeem and free?

Why do you believe that God sent Jesus to redeem those under the law that we might be adopted into the family of God.

Firstfruits

petepet
Jun 21st 2011, 01:15 PM
The whole world is responsible to keep God's commandments, statutes and judgments. That is why the whole world outside of Christ is doomed.

Today in God's eyes neither Jew nor Gentile is acceptable to Him, only the true Israel.

There is much misunderstanding of what is the true Israel. What men call Israel today is unbelieving Israel, rejected because of their rejection of the Messiah. The true Israel was composed of those who responded to the Messiah, God's believing remnant, that fairly large proportion who responded to Jesus Christ.

Israel had always accepted proselytes, and God showed the new true Israel that they too had to accept proselytes. And thus ex-Gentiles became one with them in the true Israel. This Israel is composed of all who truly believe in the Messiah (Galatians 3.29; 6.16; Ephesians 2.11-22; Romans 11.16-24; 1 Peter 2.9; James 1.1). It is founded on Jesus Christ and His true Apostles. They have not replaced Israel, they ARE Israel, branches of the true Vine (John 15.1-6).

It is an error to think of all Jews as direct descendants of Jacob. From the beginning 'Israel' contained a conglomeration of people. There were the descendants of the hundreds of servants in the patriarchal households (see Genesis 14.14), who went into Egypt with Jacob ('and their households'). There were the mixed multuitude (Exodus 12.38) who became part of Israel through the covenant at Sinai and circumcision once they had entered the land. There were multiples of proselytes like Uriah the Hittite who took advantage of Exodus 12.48. There were the Edomites who became Jews at the point of the sword under John Hyrcanus. There were the Gentiles living in Galilee who were similarly forced to become Jews at the point of the sword by Aristobulus. All saw themselves eventually as 'the children of Israel.

Large numbers of what was once Israel were excluded from Israel. Thus the idolatrous Jews left in the land were not allowed to join the new Israel being established in Ezra/Nehemiah.

So Israel was a fluid concept, excluding members who gravely defaulted, and accepting all who would truly worship God.

At the time of Jesus a similar situation arose as at the Exile. Which Jews were to be seen as part of the true Israel? And again it was settled on the basis of belief. The true Israel was composed of those who accepted the Messiah.

And when Gentile proselytes joined with them they also became members of the true Israel.

That was why there was controversy about circumcision. A proselyte had to be circumcised. Paul's reply was that circumcision (a blood offering) has been made redundant and replaced by the death of Christ. He said that all who came to Christ were circumcised. They were circumcised with the circumcision of Christ. Thus they were true proselytes and true Israelites. Today Israel in God's eyes is found wherever men and women truly believe in the Messiah.

Those who are in rejection of the Messiah are not true Israel. They can only become so by responding to the Messiah.

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 01:28 PM
The whole world is responsible to keep God's commandments, statutes and judgments. That is why the whole world outside of Christ is doomed.

Today in God's eyes neither Jew nor Gentile is acceptable to Him, only the true Israel.

There is much misunderstanding of what is the true Israel. What men call Israel today is unbelieving Israel, rejected because of their rejection of the Messiah. The true Israel was composed of those who responded to the Messiah, God's believing remnant, that fairly large proportion who responded to Jesus Christ.

Israel had always accepted proselytes, and God showed the new true Israel that they too had to accept proselytes. And thus ex-Gentiles became one with them in the true Israel. This Israel is composed of all who truly believe in the Messiah (Galatians 3.29; 6.16; Ephesians 2.11-22; Romans 11.16-24; 1 Peter 2.9; James 1.1). It is founded on Jesus Christ and His true Apostles. They have not replaced Israel, they ARE Israel, branches of the true Vine (John 15.1-6).

It is an error to think of all Jews as direct descendants of Jacob. From the beginning 'Israel' contained a conglomeration of people. There were the descendants of the hundreds of servants in the patriarchal households (see Genesis 14.14), who went into Egypt with Jacob ('and their households'). There were the mixed multuitude (Exodus 12.38) who became part of Israel through the covenant at Sinai and circumcision once they had entered the land. There were multiples of proselytes like Uriah the Hittite who took advantage of Exodus 12.48. There were the Edomites who became Jews at the point of the sword under John Hyrcanus. There were the Gentiles living in Galilee who were similarly forced to become Jews at the point of the sword by Aristobulus. All saw themselves eventually as 'the children of Israel.

Large numbers of what was once Israel were excluded from Israel. Thus the idolatrous Jews left in the land were not allowed to join the new Israel being established in Ezra/Nehemiah.

So Israel was a fluid concept, excluding members who gravely defaulted, and accepting all who would truly worship God.

At the time of Jesus a similar situation arose as at the Exile. Which Jews were to be seen as part of the true Israel? And again it was settled on the basis of belief. The true Israel was composed of those who accepted the Messiah.

And when Gentile proselytes joined with them they also became members of the true Israel.

That was why there was controversy about circumcision. A proselyte had to be circumcised. Paul's reply was that circumcision (a blood offering) has been made redundant and replaced by the death of Christ. He said that all who came to Christ were circumcised. They were circumcised with the circumcision of Christ. Thus they were true proselytes and true Israelites. Today Israel in God's eyes is found wherever men and women truly believe in the Messiah.

Those who are in rejection of the Messiah are not true Israel. They can only become so by responding to the Messiah.

According to the commandments, statues and judgments there is no requirement to accept Jesus, yet those that did what is written were Gods special people, they were righteous. Why would they need Jesus if they already belong to God?

Firstfruits

petepet
Jun 21st 2011, 01:53 PM
According to the commandments, statues and judgments there is no requirement to accept Jesus, yet those that did what is written were Gods special people, they were righteous. Why would they need Jesus if they already belong to God?

Firstfruits

As the commandments, statutes and judgment as explained by the prophets came before the time of Jesus they would clearly not refer to Jesus but they did point forwards towards the Messiah and expect belief in Him.

Anyone who belonged to God prior to the coming of Jesus did so on the merits of His sacrifice for them. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin. Only the sacrifice of Jesus the true 'Son of God' could do that.

The people who observed His commandment, statutes and judgments did not fully obey them. In as far as they came short they were not righteous (Romands 1.18-3.19). Thus they could only become 'righteous' by seeking the mercy of God and offering sacrifices. But all these pointed forward to Jesus Christ.

The righteous were those who received and responded to God's truth. Thus when God's greatest TRUTH came into the world ('I am the Truth') those who were truly righteous responded to Him. Men who did not respond to Him thereby demonstrated that they were not righteous (John 3.18-21).

There are not two ways to God, there is only one, and that is through full response to Him through the truth that He has revealed, which is now the truth as it is in Jesus. 'There is no other name under Heaven, given among men, whereby we can be saved' (Acts 4.12).

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 02:46 PM
As the commandments, statutes and judgment as explained by the prophets came before the time of Jesus they would clearly not refer to Jesus but they did point forwards towards the Messiah and expect belief in Him.

Anyone who belonged to God prior to the coming of Jesus did so on the merits of His sacrifice for them. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin. Only the sacrifice of Jesus the true 'Son of God' could do that.

The people who observed His commandment, statutes and judgments did not fully obey them. In as far as they came short they were not righteous (Romands 1.18-3.19). Thus they could only become 'righteous' by seeking the mercy of God and offering sacrifices. But all these pointed forward to Jesus Christ.

The righteous were those who received and responded to God's truth. Thus when God's greatest TRUTH came into the world ('I am the Truth') those who were truly righteous responded to Him. Men who did not respond to Him thereby demonstrated that they were not righteous (John 3.18-21).

There are not two ways to God, there is only one, and that is through full response to Him through the truth that He has revealed, which is now the truth as it is in Jesus. 'There is no other name under Heaven, given among men, whereby we can be saved' (Acts 4.12).

In the New covenant God commands us to believe on the name of Jesus, so does the New replace the old?

Firstfruits

petepet
Jun 21st 2011, 04:28 PM
In the New covenant God commands us to believe on the name of Jesus, so does the New replace the old?

Firstfruits

Yes, see Hebrews 8.13 compare 8.7-8

keck553
Jun 21st 2011, 04:47 PM
May I ask what is the difference between redeem and free?

Why do you believe that God sent Jesus to redeem those under the law that we might be adopted into the family of God.

Firstfruits

Huge difference.

The law was not given to redeem. The Hebrews were rescued by God before the law was given. Just like you were.

The law was given to show the righteousness of God and to create a holy nation.

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 06:51 PM
Huge difference.

The law was not given to redeem. The Hebrews were rescued by God before the law was given. Just like you were.

The law was given to show the righteousness of God and to create a holy nation.

Jesus was sent to redeem them that were under the law so that we can be adopted. Who mentioned that the law was sent to redeem?

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Firstfruits

keck553
Jun 21st 2011, 06:53 PM
Jesus was sent to redeem them that were under the law so that we can be adopted. Who mentioned that the law was sent to redeem?

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Firstfruits

Well you know what Paul says...."To the Jew first...."

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2011, 06:59 PM
Well you know what Paul says...."To the Jew first...."

Yes, regarding those that do evil.

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Firstfruits

keck553
Jun 21st 2011, 11:04 PM
Yes, regarding those that do evil.

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Firstfruits

Is this attitude necessary? No, my reference is in regards to salvation.

Firstfruits
Jun 22nd 2011, 08:16 AM
Is this attitude necessary? No, my reference is in regards to salvation.

May I ask which scripture you were refering to then, as based on what you said this scripture was given?

Firstfruits