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Firstfruits
Jul 28th 2011, 03:31 PM
Did you realise that if all that is to be fulfilled as Jesus said has not been fulfilled, that the law must stand as given. Every jot and tittle must be applied. This also means that the teaching we have in the New testament cannot stand since they do not teach obedience to the law as it was given, it teaches us that we are free from the law or that we are not under the law, which means a removal of the law.

So has all been fulfilled, or does the law as given by God still stand? :hmm:

Firstfruits

David Taylor
Jul 28th 2011, 03:45 PM
Did you realise that if all that is to be fulfilled as Jesus said has not been fulfilled, that the law must stand as given. Every jot and tittle must be applied. This also means that the teaching we have in the New testament cannot stand since they do not teach obedience to the law as it was given, it teaches us that we are free from the law or that we are not under the law, which means a removal of the law.

So has all been fulfilled, or does the law as given by God still stand? :hmm:

Firstfruits

Invalid question FF.

The NT cannot have it's ability to stand rendered invalid. It is immuteable. It is the everlasting gospel. The NT does stand, and will always stand.

As far as all things being fulfilled...here is what Jesus Himself said,

Luke 24:44 And Jesus said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."


To summarize from John's gospel....IT IS FINISHED.

That doesn't mean other things would not occur; just that all things concerning Jesus' coming to pay the price for forgiveness of sin was accomplished. The Law which could not forgive sin, was fulfilled in the perfect Law-Obeyer who gave His life to ransom people from the weakness of the law.

RollTide21
Jul 28th 2011, 05:25 PM
Invalid question FF.

The NT cannot have it's ability to stand rendered invalid. It is immuteable. It is the everlasting gospel. The NT does stand, and will always stand.

As far as all things being fulfilled...here is what Jesus Himself said,

Luke 24:44 And Jesus said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."


To summarize from John's gospel....IT IS FINISHED.

That doesn't mean other things would not occur; just that all things concerning Jesus' coming to pay the price for forgiveness of sin was accomplished. The Law which could not forgive sin, was fulfilled in the perfect Law-Obeyer who gave His life to ransom people from the weakness of the law.What do we make of Matthew 5:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The word "until" appears twice in verse 18. Jesus says, "until heaven and earth disappear" and "until everything is accomplished" (NIV).

The teachings in Acts and onward clearly present that we are under the Law of Grace in Christ, not the Old Law. What, then, is verse 18 in Matthew 5 saying?

Firstfruits
Jul 28th 2011, 08:18 PM
Invalid question FF.

The NT cannot have it's ability to stand rendered invalid. It is immuteable. It is the everlasting gospel. The NT does stand, and will always stand.

As far as all things being fulfilled...here is what Jesus Himself said,

Luke 24:44 And Jesus said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."


To summarize from John's gospel....IT IS FINISHED.

That doesn't mean other things would not occur; just that all things concerning Jesus' coming to pay the price for forgiveness of sin was accomplished. The Law which could not forgive sin, was fulfilled in the perfect Law-Obeyer who gave His life to ransom people from the weakness of the law.

So with regards to verse 19, for the disciples not to teach obedience to the law of Moses does not pose a problem, because all that was to be fulfilled is fulfilled?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 28th 2011, 08:21 PM
What do we make of Matthew 5:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The word "until" appears twice in verse 18. Jesus says, "until heaven and earth disappear" and "until everything is accomplished" (NIV).

The teachings in Acts and onward clearly present that we are under the Law of Grace in Christ, not the Old Law. What, then, is verse 18 in Matthew 5 saying?

Nothing in the law could change until what Jesus came to fulfil was fulfilled. Every jot and tittle was to remain until then.

Firstfruits

keck553
Jul 28th 2011, 11:11 PM
Has God's Sprit been poured out on ALL flesh? (Joel)
Is God's Law in the hearts of ALL of Judah and Israel? (Jeremiah)

Kahtar
Jul 29th 2011, 12:32 AM
Nothing in the law could change until what Jesus came to fulfil was fulfilled. Every jot and tittle was to remain until then.FirstfruitsEvery jot and tittle was to remain until heaven and earth passed away. The verse is clear on that.

Beckrl
Jul 29th 2011, 01:27 AM
See how that fits? Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Jesus said his part had finished at the cross and yet the law remained until it's destruction as was given by Jesus that this generation shall not pass till all theses things be fulfilled. When was the covenant of the law replaced by the new covenant? I believe Hebrews 8 said that it was decaying away and waxing old ready to vanish away which seems to be pretty soon coming. The time table then seems around the book of Hebrews sometime before AD70 and while Timothy was still alive (13:23) the key factor being the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.

Firstfruits
Jul 29th 2011, 07:59 AM
Has God's Sprit been poured out on ALL flesh? (Joel)
Is God's Law in the hearts of ALL of Judah and Israel? (Jeremiah)

So if all has not been fulfilled why did Christ die?

Why did the discples not teach obedience to to law?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 29th 2011, 08:04 AM
Every jot and tittle was to remain until heaven and earth passed away. The verse is clear on that.

Then the scriptures that teach otherwise according to the New testament, should not yet be accepted.

They cannot be valid as long as the law must remain until heaven and earth pass away.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Firstfruits

keck553
Jul 29th 2011, 03:33 PM
So if all has not been fulfilled why did Christ die?

Why did the discples not teach obedience to to law?

Firstfruits

Read the first sentence of Acts. I believe that will answer your first question.
You do not know what the disciples taught outside of their writings. Remember, they taught in SYNAGOGUES, where the LAW was read EVERY WEEK to know only Jews, but God-fearing Gentiles, as was their custom. The disciples were focused on the Gospel, so that is what they taught.

Come FF, it's not like they had a Pope.

keck553
Jul 29th 2011, 03:37 PM
Then the scriptures that teach otherwise according to the New testament, should not yet be accepted.

They cannot be valid as long as the law must remain until heaven and earth pass away.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Firstfruits

Katar is NOT talking about justification. I've lost count of how many times you've mixed the Law up with justification, and how many times folks have tried to untie your knot. The Law justifies no one. Ever. Never did. Never will. Until you understand that basic principle, the Law will continue to be a stumbling block for you.

David Taylor
Jul 29th 2011, 06:38 PM
Has God's Sprit been poured out on ALL flesh? (Joel)

1) Yes.
Luke 11:13 "how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"



Is God's Law in the hearts of ALL of Judah and Israel? (Jeremiah)

2) Yes.
It is now freely available to all of Judah and Israel if they will only repent. Peter taught that 2000 years ago, so did John, and so did the Hebrews writer.
Hebrews 10:16 "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh"

Firstfruits
Jul 30th 2011, 04:29 PM
Katar is NOT talking about justification. I've lost count of how many times you've mixed the Law up with justification, and how many times folks have tried to untie your knot. The Law justifies no one. Ever. Never did. Never will. Until you understand that basic principle, the Law will continue to be a stumbling block for you.

I did not mention justification. Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would change until all is fulfilled.

Firstfruits

Bandit
Jul 30th 2011, 06:42 PM
Did you realise that if all that is to be fulfilled as Jesus said has not been fulfilled, that the law must stand as given. Every jot and tittle must be applied. This also means that the teaching we have in the New testament cannot stand since they do not teach obedience to the law as it was given, it teaches us that we are free from the law or that we are not under the law, which means a removal of the law.

So has all been fulfilled, or does the law as given by God still stand? :hmm:

Firstfruits

Since Jesus lived fully and rightly under the law until death, then those "in him" are considered likewise. Jesus is the perfect man (and also the perfect God). His bride (since a man and wife are considered one flesh) is also accepted by God as Jesus is accepted.

keck553
Jul 30th 2011, 11:57 PM
1) Yes.
Luke 11:13 "how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

So ALL flesh (all means every last person on earth) has God's Spirit indwelt? No way. Joe; 2 says ALL flesh, not just some who ask, but ALL.




2) Yes.
It is now freely available to all of Judah and Israel if they will only repent. Peter taught that 2000 years ago, so did John, and so did the Hebrews writer.
Hebrews 10:16 "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh"[/QUOTE]

Firstfruits
Jul 31st 2011, 08:27 AM
Lk 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Lk 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
Lk 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

It seems we stiil do not understand these things.

Lk 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Firstfruits

keck553
Aug 1st 2011, 07:35 PM
Lk 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Lk 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
Lk 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

It seems we stiil do not understand these things.

Lk 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Firstfruits

Put it in context, pehaps that will make it easier?

David Taylor
Aug 1st 2011, 08:08 PM
So ALL flesh (all means every last person on earth) has God's Spirit indwelt? No way. Joe; 2 says ALL flesh, not just some who ask, but ALL.


I reject Universal Reconciliation.
I believe only a subset of mortal human beings will ever be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Most of the world will always be following the broad gate that leads to destruction; only few according to the scriptures, enter the gate that leadeth unto everlasting life.

I would change my interpretation of Joel 2 to not imply Universal Reconciliation as yours seems to be doing; then you don't attempt to misinterpret both Joel 2 and Acts 1, and the entire reason the Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost.

Firstfruits
Aug 2nd 2011, 08:01 AM
Put it in context, pehaps that will make it easier?

That Christ should suffer and be killed and be raised from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness should be preached.

Firstfruits

keck553
Aug 2nd 2011, 04:23 PM
I reject Universal Reconciliation.
I believe only a subset of mortal human beings will ever be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Most of the world will always be following the broad gate that leads to destruction; only few according to the scriptures, enter the gate that leadeth unto everlasting life.

I would change my interpretation of Joel 2 to not imply Universal Reconciliation as yours seems to be doing; then you don't attempt to misinterpret both Joel 2 and Acts 1, and the entire reason the Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost.

I don't endorse "universal reconcilliation." Perhaps when Joel 2 if full, the only folks left will be the redeemable. I don't know, but just because I don't know doesn't give me the authority to downgrade "all" to "some." It's God's Word, not mine to play around with to fit my particular doctrine. Partial fulfillments are allowed in d'rashes such as Peter gave in ACTS 1. It's a common teaching in that culture. Just as when Jesus quoted Isaiah 61 - not ALL of the prophecy was fulfilled at the time, it was partial.