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ksnsj1
Aug 19th 2011, 05:04 PM
There are non-believers that restrain themself from committing sins at times. Is God restraining these people?

The reason I ask, is I believe if I wasn't a believer in Jesus then I would committ more sins.

Bandit
Aug 19th 2011, 05:59 PM
It comes across as if you don't believe that people can restrain themselves.

TrustGzus
Aug 19th 2011, 06:20 PM
The Bible records one instance of God restraining a non-believer (Genesis 20:6 - assuming Abimelek was a non-believer). I don't see why it can't be both. Non-believers can choose not to commit some sins and other times it's possible that God might restrain them though I don't know we could ever prove which might the case.

ksnsj1
Aug 19th 2011, 06:26 PM
It comes across as if you don't believe that people can restrain themselves.

Good observation! I believe that the only way people can restrain themselves, is because God made us in his image and implanted attributes of himself inside of everyone. I believe that the reason any human can restrain from committing evil is, because GOD wired us from the beginning. I don't believe any person whether a beleiver or non-believer could resist temptation unless God helped in one way or another.

In order words, I believe no person, should praise theirself for resisting temptation. Just as no one should praise theirself for being attractive in appearance or for being intelligent.

Rufus
Aug 19th 2011, 06:38 PM
Good observation! I believe that the only way people can restrain themselves, is because God made us in his image and implanted attributes of himself inside of everyone. I believe that the reason any human can restrain from committing evil is, because GOD wired us from the beginning. I don't believe any person whether a beleiver or non-believer could resist temptation unless God helped in one way or another.

In order words, I believe no person, should praise theirself for resisting temptation. Just as no one should praise theirself for being attractive in appearance or for being intelligent.

To take your premise to the logical conclusion, then, you must also believe that man will be able to restrain evil in hell? After all, the damned don't lose those "attributes" and God's image, right?

Rufus

RollTide21
Aug 19th 2011, 06:43 PM
To take your premise to the logical conclusion, then, you must also believe that man will be able to restrain evil in hell? After all, the damned don't lose those "attributes" and God's image, right?

RufusSounds like the logical conclusion would be the opposite. Hell is the utter absence of God. Therefore, not only would humans not be able to restrain evil, they will have no desire to do so.

MaryFreeman
Aug 19th 2011, 06:46 PM
There has to be an external force restraining folks from sinning (well.... Most folks anyways).... With some it is the fear of going to jail.... Thus the laws in their particular dot on the map restrain them.... With others it is the fear of reprisal from disapproving believing parents (or others).... Thus peer or elder pressure restrains them.... And then there are those who are conditioned in some way by the Church.... Which is why Paul says this:

(2Th 2:7 NLT) For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.

When I say the Church.... I mean the true Church who acts as God's representative.... In this particular passage Paul is speaking of the day when that restraining influence is taken out of the way (harpadzo).... And at that time sin will no longer be in secret but will run rampant.... Just like in the days of Noah and Lot.... I don't know about anyone else but this season of world history is beginning to look more and more like those days....

ksnsj1
Aug 19th 2011, 07:10 PM
To take your premise to the logical conclusion, then, you must also believe that man will be able to restrain evil in hell? After all, the damned don't lose those "attributes" and God's image, right?

Rufus

This is a good point. My question to you is, then how do the non-christians restrain themselves now while they are on earth? Remember this as well there will be people that murdered in heaven and people who committed less sins in hell. If you listed all their sins they would be less than those of some or many christians.

That being said those in hell made the mistake of nothing accepting Jesus as their lord and savior.

What I'm trying to say is that even people in hell could still have some decency in them, not decency that God would consider righteous, but what a man might consider decent. Such as the story of the rich man and Lazarus, and the rich man asked that someone could go back to his relatives and warn them. Now, to me as a man that seems decent.

Also, I think the point of hell is not about the people in hell or the lake of fire restraining evil, it is about them being tortured and punished.

Kahtar
Aug 19th 2011, 07:39 PM
After all, the damned don't lose those "attributes" and God's image, right?What is your basis for this? What does a damned soul in hell look like? How do you know whether man retains God's image there? I have never seen that in scripture, and, unless you have something that verifies(ie scripture) it, then your 'logical conclusion' has no basis. ;)

I believe that the only way people can restrain themselves, is because God made us in his image and implanted attributes of himself inside of everyone.Except for the word 'only', this is a good point. Man, all men, ARE created in God's image, regardless of their belief or lack thereof. They cannot help themselves but to display God's glory in the earth. That is one reason why Satan is so bent on stealing, killing and destroying us, believer or not.
But, as was pointed out by someone else, there are other things that restrain people from sin, ie jail, peer pressure, upbringing, etc.

Rufus
Aug 19th 2011, 09:31 PM
What is your basis for this? What does a damned soul in hell look like? How do you know whether man retains God's image there? I have never seen that in scripture, and, unless you have something that verifies(ie scripture) it, then your 'logical conclusion' has no basis. ;)

I was taking someone else's premise to the logical conclusion. First of all I disagree with KSN, for none of us possess God's attributes, e.g. omniscience, omnipotence, infinity, etc. And secondly, just because we were created in God's image doesn't give us inherent power to choose God. Even in the Gen 20 text he cited, it was God who took the credit for restraining Abimelech and protecting Sarah -- "I DID NOT LET YOU...".

I brought hell into this discussion because it and heaven are at the opposite extreme ends of what the situation here on earth is. Heaven will be the place of absolute Good. There will be no Evil in heaven. Who gets credit for that: God or the saints who dwell there? The saints in heaven won't be able to sin, which in some religious circles could be construed as a violation of man's "sovereign" free will). Conversely, in Hell, I don't believe there will be any Good in that place. All people in hell are those who have rejected the only Good (God) when on earth because the loved darkness because their deeds were evil. Is not hell described as "outer darkness". No light! No good. Since Romans 1 teaches that God gives the incorrigible here on earth over to reprobate minds to sink deeper into sin, then there is no reason to believe that he won't do that in hell, also.


Except for the word 'only', this is a good point. Man, all men, ARE created in God's image, regardless of their belief or lack thereof. They cannot help themselves but to display God's glory in the earth.

How do the unregenerate give glory to God?


That is one reason why Satan is so bent on stealing, killing and destroying us, believer or not.
But, as was pointed out by someone else, there are other things that restrain people from sin, ie jail, peer pressure, upbringing, etc.

Yes, God uses means to restrain evil -- even government. But ultimately it's God who restrains evil. For both good and evil go forth from God's mouth (Lam 3:37,38; Isa 45:7).

Rufus

Kahtar
Aug 19th 2011, 11:05 PM
I was taking someone else's premise to the logical conclusion. First of all I disagree with KSN, for none of us possess God's attributes, e.g. omniscience, omnipotence, infinity, etc. And secondly, just because we were created in God's image doesn't give us inherent power to choose God. Even in the Gen 20 text he cited, it was God who took the credit for restraining Abimelech and protecting Sarah -- "I DID NOT LET YOU...".
I brought hell into this discussion because it and heaven are at the opposite extreme ends of what the situation here on earth is. Heaven will be the place of absolute Good. There will be no Evil in heaven. Who gets credit for that: God or the saints who dwell there? The saints in heaven won't be able to sin, which in some religious circles could be construed as a violation of man's "sovereign" free will). Conversely, in Hell, I don't believe there will be any Good in that place. All people in hell are those who have rejected the only Good (God) when on earth because the loved darkness because their deeds were evil. Is not hell described as "outer darkness". No light! No good. Since Romans 1 teaches that God gives the incorrigible here on earth over to reprobate minds to sink deeper into sin, then there is no reason to believe that he won't do that in hell, also.Guess that explains it, thanks.

How do the unregenerate give glory to God?I didn't say they did. I said they display God's glory. Giving him glory is quite another matter. I should have said 'image' rather than 'glory'. They, like you, are made in God's image. Thus, God's image is displayed. It fills the earth.

MaryFreeman
Aug 19th 2011, 11:10 PM
Guess that explains it, thanks.
It does? :hmm: .............................

ksnsj1
Aug 20th 2011, 03:05 AM
I was taking someone else's premise to the logical conclusion. First of all I disagree with KSN, for none of us possess God's attributes, e.g. omniscience, omnipotence, infinity, etc. And secondly, just because we were created in God's image doesn't give us inherent power to choose God. Even in the Gen 20 text he cited, it was God who took the credit for restraining Abimelech and protecting Sarah -- "I DID NOT LET YOU...".

I brought hell into this discussion because it and heaven are at the opposite extreme ends of what the situation here on earth is. Heaven will be the place of absolute Good. There will be no Evil in heaven. Who gets credit for that: God or the saints who dwell there? The saints in heaven won't be able to sin, which in some religious circles could be construed as a violation of man's "sovereign" free will). Conversely, in Hell, I don't believe there will be any Good in that place. All people in hell are those who have rejected the only Good (God) when on earth because the loved darkness because their deeds were evil. Is not hell described as "outer darkness". No light! No good. Since Romans 1 teaches that God gives the incorrigible here on earth over to reprobate minds to sink deeper into sin, then there is no reason to believe that he won't do that in hell, also.



How do the unregenerate give glory to God?



Yes, God uses means to restrain evil -- even government. But ultimately it's God who restrains evil. For both good and evil go forth from God's mouth (Lam 3:37,38; Isa 45:7).

Rufus

Yes, God is the one who restrains evil not men. God does this through various methods. One of the methods I believe is that God has put good qualities in everyone. There are some very moral athesist I have know and there are some really bad christians.

My christian dad was a very bad man for many many years, but now he is not. Then I know of another dad, who did much better as a dad and husband and is a non-chrisian.

Desperaux
Aug 20th 2011, 10:48 PM
I am not sure that God restrains sin. We have been created with a will, and are born spiritually corrupt and capable of all manner of sin, and the history of the world attests to that.

The restrainer is Holy Spirit, who dwells in the people called by His name. It is by the renewing of our minds as Christians, by the freeing power of Holy Spirit that we overcome sin.

Unbelievers are unrestrained except by a moral sense that has been placed in each individual heart and is developed or expressed according to one's own environmental conditioning.

Romans 2:14-16
Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.

Bandit
Aug 20th 2011, 11:30 PM
... then how do the non-christians restrain themselves now while they are on earth? ...

So you do believe that they can and do restrain themselves. Then it should be obvious that God created men with moral volition (what some would call 'free-will', but then some others get hung up over the word 'free').

ksnsj1
Aug 21st 2011, 12:39 AM
I am not sure that God restrains sin. We have been created with a will, and are born spiritually corrupt and capable of all manner of sin, and the history of the world attests to that.

The restrainer is Holy Spirit, who dwells in the people called by His name. It is by the renewing of our minds as Christians, by the freeing power of Holy Spirit that we overcome sin.

Unbelievers are unrestrained except by a moral sense that has been placed in each individual heart and is developed or expressed according to one's own environmental conditioning.

Romans 2:14-16
Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.

You said unbelivers are unrestrained except for a moral sense that has been placed in ones heart? God placed it there.

ksnsj1
Aug 21st 2011, 12:40 AM
So you do believe that they can and do restrain themselves. Then it should be obvious that God created men with moral volition (what some would call 'free-will', but then some others get hung up over the word 'free').

Oh how petty, lets be constructive, so we can use these discussions to win the lost, feed the poor etc. I asked you a question I didn't make a statement. I believe no one can restrain themself or do any good except by God in some way or form.

MaryFreeman
Aug 21st 2011, 12:45 AM
You said unbelivers are unrestrained except for a moral sense that has been placed in ones heart? God placed it there. Yes but that is only those unbelievers that choose to listen to their moral sense.... Reprobates however have no moral sense.... It has been seared as with a hot iron.... Look at Romans:

(Rom 1:28 KJV) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
(Rom 1:29 KJV) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
(Rom 1:30 KJV) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
(Rom 1:31 KJV) Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
(Rom 1:32 KJV) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

God gave them over to a reprobate mind.... Which means He removed any and all restraints because they refused to acknowledge and live by them.... So we come back to what does restrain them.... The law.... Upbringing....

ksnsj1
Aug 21st 2011, 01:10 AM
This is true about reprobates, be gald everyone isn't like this. I have run into people like this before, don't look at them strange they might shoot you, no lie.

I've seen thise type of person handcuffed and that type of person doesn't even care they are going to jail, then when they get to jail they punish people even in jail.

Desperaux
Aug 21st 2011, 01:59 AM
You said unbelivers are unrestrained except for a moral sense that has been placed in ones heart? God placed it there.

That's the truth, and I thought it was understood.

ksnsj1
Aug 21st 2011, 03:36 AM
That's the truth, and I thought it was understood.

Good, good, makes sense.

Bandit
Aug 21st 2011, 05:47 PM
... then how do the non-christians restrain themselves now while they are on earth? ...


So you do believe that they can and do restrain themselves. Then it should be obvious that God created men with moral volition (what some would call 'free-will', but then some others get hung up over the word 'free').


Oh how petty, lets be constructive, so we can use these discussions to win the lost, feed the poor etc. I asked you a question I didn't make a statement. I believe no one can restrain themself or do any good except by God in some way or form.

Actually, your question was not addressed to me; I just commented on it. How about God created people with the ability to choose, so when a moral situation comes up, the choice is their's to make?

ksnsj1
Aug 21st 2011, 06:02 PM
Actually, your question was not addressed to me; I just commented on it. How about God created people with the ability to choose, so when a moral situation comes up, the choice is their's to make?

Yes, I believe God gave us the POWER/ENERGY/STRENGTH to choose. However, non-believers can not walk in the spirit. Believers have the ability to do better than the non-believers.

Bandit
Aug 21st 2011, 06:24 PM
Yes, I believe God gave us the POWER/ENERGY/STRENGTH to choose. However, non-believers can not walk in the spirit. Believers have the ability to do better than the non-believers.

I agree, unbelievers cannot walk in the Spirit like believers can, but unbelievers can still make good moral choices. And although believers should walk according to the Spirit (and thereby live to a higher moral standard), they do not always do so.

ksnsj1
Aug 21st 2011, 06:37 PM
In the case of reprobates.

1 Timothy 4:2

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

God gave us a CONSCIENCE.

Of course one could say that governments and fear of jail/punishment is also a way God restrains people.

There you go. Some things that could uses to restrain even the lost. Conscience and governments.

Did man create his own conscience? No, God did it.

I'm sure glad he did, just think how bad things would be if not.

Desperaux
Aug 21st 2011, 06:53 PM
In the case of reprobates.

1 Timothy 4:2

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

God gave us a CONSCIENCE.

Of course one could say that governments and fear of jail/punishment is also a way God restrains people.

There you go. Some things that could uses to restrain even the lost. Conscience and governments.

Did man create his own conscience? No, God did it.

I'm sure glad he did, just think how bad things would be if not.

Utter reprobates do not operate on conscience, nor does any of the machinery that God has established through governments to curb them instill any fear in them to act within moral limits.

It is up to the moral among us to police, punish and treat such people.