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Ta-An
Aug 21st 2011, 05:47 PM
Why did Jacob wrestle with God?

Scripture ref. please :D

quiet dove
Aug 21st 2011, 06:04 PM
Why did Jacob wrestle with God?

Scripture ref. please :D

I have no idea...lol

I have always wondered about this though. Maybe it is like us sometimes, the way we struggle with God cause ...well... we are just not to smart sometimes..Idk

nzyr
Aug 21st 2011, 09:10 PM
The bible says Jacob wanted a blessing.

And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. (Genesis 32:26)

episkopos
Aug 22nd 2011, 01:45 AM
The bible says Jacob wanted a blessing.

And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. (Genesis 32:26)

Jacob is the father of all those who seek until they find. Then they are the Israel of God.

karenoka27
Aug 22nd 2011, 02:37 AM
Good question! I found this verse in Psalm 78:21-"Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;"
The only problem is...I don't understand this verse either! ;) Hope you find the answer! I'm curious! I have found a lot of sermons on it with a lot of applications but no real answer.

Al_S
Aug 22nd 2011, 04:07 AM
The better question might be why did God wrestle with Jacob.

Ta-An
Aug 22nd 2011, 07:04 AM
The better question might be why did God wrestle with Jacob. Well according to Gen. 32 :26, Jacob was not prepared to let go.... :hmm: Why? Because he wanted a blessing....

Ta-An
Aug 22nd 2011, 07:05 AM
But :hmm:

Do you think perhaps because since birth he did not want to be the second born son?
He was named Jacob, meaning:"Heelgrabber" because he was grabbing Esau's heel in the birth canal,Gen 25:26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and then when he wrestled with God (Peniel, meaning seeing the face of God) he wanted a blessing..... a name change is a blessing.... no longer did he want to be known as a "Heelgrabber" but he wanted a blessing :yes: and he was called : Israel =
the name conferred on Jacob after the great prayer-struggle at Peniel (Gen. 32:28), because "as a prince he had power with God and prevailed."

Makes me wonder if we ever prevail with God :hmm: will He bless us, will He change our names, or our circumstances :hmm:

keck553
Aug 22nd 2011, 03:55 PM
What did God do to Jacob to stop him from running?

Ta-An
Aug 22nd 2011, 04:18 PM
What did God do to Jacob to stop him from running?His hip :idea: But what do you think he was running from..??

Al_S
Aug 22nd 2011, 04:46 PM
What was God's question to Jacob when Jacob asked for the blessing?

keck553
Aug 22nd 2011, 04:46 PM
His hip :idea: But what do you think he was running from..??

I think Jacob was a mama's boy before his encounter. The encounter may have forced him to mature, but it still didn't make him a better dad.

Ta-An
Aug 22nd 2011, 05:20 PM
I think Jacob was a mama's boy before his encounter. The encounter may have forced him to mature, but it still didn't make him a better dad. :hmm: How would you have reacted if you were the mother, knowing that there were two nations in your womb... two nations that are not going to like one another :hmm:

How would you have felt if your name was :Heelgrabber" all your life? Imagine the teasing by your peers :o

Ta-An
Aug 22nd 2011, 05:27 PM
What was God's question to Jacob when Jacob asked for the blessing? God asked Jacob why he was wrestling with Him...

keck553
Aug 22nd 2011, 05:47 PM
:hmm: How would you have reacted if you were the mother, knowing that there were two nations in your womb... two nations that are not going to like one another :hmm:

How would you have felt if your name was :Heelgrabber" all your life? Imagine the teasing by your peers :o

So now it's Rivka's fault? Imparted mama's boy syndrome? Is that why he spoiled Yosef to point of stirring hatred in his brothers? How did spoiled Yosf wind up?

Because I was raised a spoiled brat mama's boy just like these two, cut off (so to speak) socially but.....if God can do great things through them, then perhaps I can stop running too......

Al_S
Aug 22nd 2011, 05:47 PM
God asked Jacob why he was wrestling with Him...

No. God asked Jacob his what his name was.



26Then he said, "Let me go, for the day has broken." But Jacob said,(O) "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27And he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob."

Given an all-knowing God, do you think that He did not know Jacob's identity? Of course he did. So what's the purpose in asking Jacob's name? I'll give you a hint: was this the first time Jacob had been asked this question?

Ta-An
Aug 22nd 2011, 06:23 PM
: was this the first time Jacob had been asked this question?Surely not ...............where are you going with this:hmm:........

Al_S
Aug 22nd 2011, 06:36 PM
Let's take a look at a previous time that happens to be recorded in scripture:
Gen 27


So he went in to his father and said, "My father." And he said, "Here I am. Who are you, my son?" 19 Jacob said to his father, "I am Esau your firstborn. I have done as you told me; now sit up and eat of my game, that your soul may bless me."

See any parallels?

Ta-An
Aug 22nd 2011, 07:59 PM
Let's take a look at a previous time that happens to be recorded in scripture:
Gen 27


See any parallels? Yes.... :hmm:

Al_S
Aug 22nd 2011, 08:29 PM
What are the similarities? What are the differences?

Is there significance behind Jacob lying to his father to receive a blessing?

At what point did Jacob start wrestling with God?

Was Jacob relying on God in the chapters in between these scenes?

What point did he need to come to in order to receive God's blessing?

These questions will hopefully answer your question of why Jacob was wrestling with God. Once we've got that, we can take a look at why Go was wrestling with Jacob.

Ta-An
Aug 23rd 2011, 08:36 AM
What are the similarities? He was asked what his name is....( one's name has meaning and tells of your nature)


What are the differences?[/quote] First time , he lied, second time he told the truth[quote]

Is there significance behind Jacob lying to his father to receive a blessing? I'd say yes, he wanted the blessing to break the curse of being a 'heelgrabber'


At what point did Jacob start wrestling with God? I'd say his whole life, the physical action was the 'last straw' :hmm: because he stayd behind..... and was not prepared to go on further to meet Esau in that state he was in


Was Jacob relying on God in the chapters in between these scenes? :hmm: Well God blessed him richly... so yes, God was there all along


What point did he need to come to in order to receive God's blessing? ?? He had to accept the blessing..He did not want to live with what he 'stole' he wanted to live with a 'real' blessing..... and no longer question his identity.
Maybe he wanted to justify his blessing?


These questions will hopefully answer your question of why Jacob was wrestling with God. Once we've got that, we can take a look at why Go was wrestling with Jacob.

Okay... do you agree with my answers :hmm:

Fenris
Aug 23rd 2011, 12:52 PM
The very name "Israel" means "struggle with God"

Having said, that, Hosea 12 says that he wrestled with an angel.

keck553
Aug 23rd 2011, 03:15 PM
The very name "Israel" means "struggle with God"

Having said, that, Hosea 12 says that he wrestled with an angel.

I know the Septuagint claims the voice from the burning bush was a "messenger" (angel in our vernacular)
Why does Jacob say he saw God and lived? I've not been able to figure that one out. Was he confused?

Ta-An
Aug 23rd 2011, 03:21 PM
The very name "Israel" means "struggle with God"

Having said, that, Hosea 12 says that he wrestled with an angel.Gen.32:31 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: 'for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'

:hmm: Jacob seems to have recognized God...............פְּנִיאֵל: כִּי-רָאִיתִי אֱלֹהִים פָּנִים אֶל-פָּנִים
KJV translation says :Hosea12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:

The Translation you don't like says: 4 In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and by his strength he strove with a godlike being; שָׂרָה אֶת-אֱלֹהִים this verse in all the translation I have reads "struggled with God" and it is only in the next verse that the word changes to "Angel"

Fenris
Aug 23rd 2011, 04:11 PM
God says "No one can see Me and live", so obviously Jacob didn't see God.

quiet dove
Aug 23rd 2011, 04:25 PM
Gen.32:31 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: 'for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'

:hmm: Jacob seems to have recognized God...............פְּנִיאֵל: כִּי-רָאִיתִי אֱלֹהִים פָּנִים אֶל-פָּנִים
KJV translation says :Hosea12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:

The Translation you don't like says: 4 In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and by his strength he strove with a godlike being; שָׂרָה אֶת-אֱלֹהִים this verse in all the translation I have reads "struggled with God" and it is only in the next verse that the word changes to "Angel"



Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
The very name "Israel" means "struggle with God"

Having said, that, Hosea 12 says that he wrestled with an angel.

This is interesting, if Israel means 'struggled with God' that makes me wonder if the struggle was not also prophetic in regards to the nation?

Ta-An
Aug 23rd 2011, 05:29 PM
God says "No one can see Me and live", so obviously Jacob didn't see God.It would be interesting to know how your Torah reads.. :hmm:

Yes, I know that verse Fenris.... I'll add this to my list of questions I want to ask God one day when we get there....

Ta-An
Aug 23rd 2011, 05:32 PM
This is interesting, if Israel means 'struggled with God' that makes me wonder if the struggle was not also prophetic in regards to the nation?Well Rebekah knew it was a struggle between 2 nations in her Gen 25:23 And Jehovah said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And Two peoples shall be separated from thy bowels. And the one people shall be stronger than the other people. And the elder shall serve the younger.

Fenris
Aug 23rd 2011, 05:45 PM
This is interesting, if Israel means 'struggled with God' that makes me wonder if the struggle was not also prophetic in regards to the nation?Elie Weisel once said "One can be Jewish with God, or against God, but not without God".

episkopos
Aug 23rd 2011, 09:42 PM
Israel means "will rule with God."

God is training a people to rule with Christ in the next age.

Jacob's wrestling is for all who are of faith.

keck553
Aug 23rd 2011, 09:45 PM
God says "No one can see Me and live", so obviously Jacob didn't see God.

So apparently he was wrong.

quiet dove
Aug 23rd 2011, 09:58 PM
Israel means "will rule with God."

God is training a people to rule with Christ in the next age.

Jacob's wrestling is for all who are of faith.

That would include all who are in Christ Jesus, and we are promised to rule with Him....Amen

Al_S
Aug 24th 2011, 06:33 PM
He was asked what his name is....( one's name has meaning and tells of your nature)


What are the differences? First time , he lied, second time he told the truth I'd say yes, he wanted the blessing to break the curse of being a 'heelgrabber' I'd say his whole life, the physical action was the 'last straw' :hmm: because he stayd behind..... and was not prepared to go on further to meet Esau in that state he was in

:hmm: Well God blessed him richly... so yes, God was there all along

?? He had to accept the blessing..He did not want to live with what he 'stole' he wanted to live with a 'real' blessing..... and no longer question his identity.
Maybe he wanted to justify his blessing?



Okay... do you agree with my answers :hmm:

I agree with most of your answers. To sum it up, it is my belief that when tricking Isaac, Jacob was relying on himself (his own wit & ingenuity--and that of his mother) rather than relying on God to provide. This is the nature of original sin and I believe at heart, the nature of all sin. As a result of his trickery, Jacob had to flee and upon his return was still afraid that Esau would kill him--hence the gifts & splitting up his party. Even though he asked God for help, he was still relying on his own means to solve the problem, and as you said above, he was not ready to face Esau in his current condition. This left him alone with God, presenting him with the opportunity to wrestle with God physically and come to a point where he truly relied on God for his blessing rather than trying to do it on his own. This I believe provides a picture for our lives. Have we truly come to a point where we realize we need to rely on God for provision & blessing, or are we merely paying God lip service & trying to do things on our own.


So, this leaves the question why did God bother to wrestle with Jacob. Fenris mentioned above that he believes this to be an angel or messenger from God rather than God Himself as no one can see God. I believe this to be a Christophany much like what we see when the Lord appears to Abraham a few chapters earlier prior to the destruction of Sodom.

A couple questions I think will help us reach an answer to this question. As Jacob is wrestling with God, who is all powerful, is there any way for God to lose this match? If not, how is it that Jacob prevailed (as implied in v. 28)? When we wrestle with God, is it possible for us to prevail? How?

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2011, 07:16 PM
...When we wrestle with God, is it possible for us to prevail? How?Well God is all powerful........so for us to wrestle with God, I suppose it shows how desperate we are for His blessing :hmm:

Al_S
Aug 24th 2011, 07:56 PM
Well God is all powerful........so for us to wrestle with God, I suppose it shows how desperate we are for His blessing :hmm:

I have a slightly different take on this--or maybe it is the same thing you are saying. With God being all powerful, there is no way we can win in our struggles against Him. The only way we can win is to realize we need to rely on Him for our provisions & blessing. So yes, in wrestling with God, we eventually realize that we need to rely on Him rather than on our own might.

Jacob wrestled all night with God, yet when God wanted, he merely touched Jacob's hip and disabled him. God could have done this all along & won, yet He allowed Jacob to struggle. Why? It was through this struggle that Jacob realized He needed to give in and rely on God rather than his own might.

So, how do we win when wrestling with God?
By surrendering and realizing we need to rely on Him and not ourselves. This, I believe is the core message of the Bible, echoed through every story and every prophecy.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2011, 08:49 PM
Israel means "will rule with God."
That's a new one.

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2011, 09:32 PM
I have a slightly different take on this--or maybe it is the same thing you are saying. With God being all powerful, there is no way we can win in our struggles against Him. The only way we can win is to realize we need to rely on Him for our provisions & blessing. So yes, in wrestling with God, we eventually realize that we need to rely on Him rather than on our own might.

Jacob wrestled all night with God, yet when God wanted, he merely touched Jacob's hip and disabled him. God could have done this all along & won, yet He allowed Jacob to struggle. Why? It was through this struggle that Jacob realized He needed to give in and rely on God rather than his own might.

By surrendering and realizing we need to rely on Him and not ourselves. This, I believe is the core message of the Bible, echoed through every story and every prophecy.

Thank you :)
So, how do we win when wrestling with God? This verse come to mind..Phil 4:6 In nothing be anxious, but in everything, by prayer and petition (supplication/beseeching/humble prayer) with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God.

My translation reads : "beg"

But yes I agree,,, to submit and rely totally to Him and His care and guidance

episkopos
Aug 25th 2011, 12:58 AM
That's a new one.

sar as you know means prince.

שׂרה
śârâh
saw-raw'
A primitive root; to prevail: - have power (as a prince).

Fenris
Aug 25th 2011, 12:09 PM
sar as you know means prince.

שׂרה
śârâh
saw-raw'
A primitive root; to prevail: - have power (as a prince).Read the whole verse.


And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven שָׂרִיתָ[Sar-isi] with God and with men, and hast prevailed.'

Hence "struggles with God".

Ta-An
Aug 25th 2011, 01:18 PM
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Israel: The name conferred on Jacob after the great prayer-struggle at Peniel (Gen. 32:28), because "as a prince he had power with God and prevailed."

episkopos, are you comparing "as a prince" with "prevailed"?? The Hebrew translation I have leaves "as a prince" out :hmm: I need an "Artscroll" but they are EXPENSIVE :o

HEBREW translation...:: 29 And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven------------- with God and with men, and hast prevailed.'

Ta-An
Aug 25th 2011, 03:39 PM
Read the whole verse.


And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven שָׂרִיתָ[Sar-isi] with God and with men, and hast prevailed.'

Hence "struggles with God".שָׂרִיתָ
Sa-ri-at ..... it is a furtive patach and a tav... :hmm:

Lemme go look in my Lexicon :idea:

John 8:32
Aug 25th 2011, 03:58 PM
Read the whole verse.


And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven שָׂרִיתָ[Sar-isi] with God and with men, and hast prevailed.'

Hence "struggles with God".

Prevailer with God.

Ta-An
Aug 25th 2011, 04:52 PM
Genesis 35 : 9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Notice here there is no struggle... First time at Penial was a srtugglem second time at Bethel there is no struggle :)

God says : I am El Shaddai= (God Almighty,,,, perhaps rather.. the God who blesses in abundance, the all sufficient God) ... be fruitful and multiply....

With this blessing the "heelgrabber" becomes the fruitfull one.

This Name of God: El Shaddai , is to indicate God's complete sufficiency to nurture the nation into fruitfulness.... the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham,,,
Notice when God reveals Himself as El Shaddai, He changes their names... Both Abraham and Jacob :)