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MaryFreeman
Aug 26th 2011, 10:20 PM
Looking for an easy discussion here.... Jesus says for us to abide in Him.... Because we cannot of ourselves bear fruit.... Much like my cucumber plants.... Or my watermellon plants.... They are vining plants.... They are not going to produce fruit if their various branches are broken off.... Which leads to my question....


(Joh 15:1-2 KJV)I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away : and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

So what does it mean when Jesus says "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away".... ?

keck553
Aug 26th 2011, 10:23 PM
define 'fruit' (sorry to complicate matters)

MaryFreeman
Aug 26th 2011, 10:26 PM
define 'fruit' (sorry to complicate matters)My understanding of fruit is faith produced actions.... Doing everything we do for the Glory of God....

keck553
Aug 26th 2011, 10:31 PM
My understanding of fruit is faith produced actions.... Doing everything we do for the Glory of God....

It's a good question. Here are a couple of statistics -

The divorce rate in the church community is 2% higher than in the secular community
and 90% higher than the religious Jewish community.

Where would you find the most fruit based on this one moral failure/sucess?

Can you honestly say God is pleased with Christians as a corporate in regards to the destruction of the family unit He established? Does God really need to lower His standards to accomodate our sin?

MaryFreeman
Aug 26th 2011, 10:37 PM
It's a good question. Here are a couple of statistics -

The divorce rate in the church community is 2% higher than in the secular community
and 90% higher than the religious Jewish community.

Where would you find the most fruit based on this one moral failure/sucess? I would say the Jewish community but most Jews are not Messianic....


Can you honestly say God is pleased with Christians as a corporate in regards to the destruction of the family unit He established? Does God really need to lower His standards to accomodate our sin?I don't believe I said anything like this....

This is what I meant when I said I want an easy discussion.... What is it that Jesus means when He says "in me".... Because if the branches are in Him and are not broken off.... Why would they be taken away?

Am I to gather from this response that sin is what causes the Father to take away the branch?

But what about 1 John 1:9?

Butch5
Aug 26th 2011, 10:44 PM
Looking for an easy discussion here.... Jesus says for us to abide in Him.... Because we cannot of ourselves bear fruit.... Much like my cucumber plants.... Or my watermellon plants.... They are vining plants.... They are not going to produce fruit if their various branches are broken off.... Which leads to my question....


(Joh 15:1-2 KJV)I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away : and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

So what does it mean when Jesus says "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away".... ?

Every Christian who doesn't bear fruit is taken away.

MaryFreeman
Aug 26th 2011, 10:48 PM
Every Christian who doesn't bear fruit is taken away.From the vine??? And to where????

divaD
Aug 26th 2011, 10:51 PM
Every Christian who doesn't bear fruit is taken away.


Without turning this thread into OSAS vs NOSAS, I simply think this is one of the clearer passages that absolutely shows OSAS is not Biblical. I tend to think these are the goats of Matthew 25 for one.

keck553
Aug 26th 2011, 11:03 PM
I would say the Jewish community but most Jews are not Messianic....
True, but the several hundred thousand that are Messianic keep pretty much the same observances. Do you find that odd?



I don't believe I said anything like this....

This is what I meant when I said I want an easy discussion.... What is it that Jesus means when He says "in me".... Because if the branches are in Him and are not broken off.... Why would they be taken away?

Am I to gather from this response that sin is what causes the Father to take away the branch?

But what about 1 John 1:9?

Sin? We're not supposed to be slaves to sin, are we? When I speak of the Church, I am assuming a group of saved people who, by revelation and imparting of the Holy Spirit, are held to a higher standard. In fact since our revelation is greater than non-messianic Jews, wouldn't you think we are held to even a higher standard?

How are we to be a witness if our fruit looks just like the fruit of the secular community?

People can choose to abide in Christ. His Word is in us after all.

keck553
Aug 26th 2011, 11:09 PM
Every Christian who doesn't bear fruit is taken away.

Romans 11:21 comes to mind.....

Maybe....just maybe instead of ripping out all the parts of the Bible ("well I don't have to do that because.....") we don't want to abide in and custom forming God's word to abide in us, perhaps we should abide in God's Word? Just a thought....

keck553
Aug 26th 2011, 11:32 PM
Looking for an easy discussion here.... Jesus says for us to abide in Him.... Because we cannot of ourselves bear fruit.... Much like my cucumber plants.... Or my watermellon plants.... They are vining plants.... They are not going to produce fruit if their various branches are broken off.... Which leads to my question....


(Joh 15:1-2 KJV)I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away : and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

So what does it mean when Jesus says "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away".... ?

Sorry I derailed your thread......

rejoice44
Aug 27th 2011, 12:23 AM
Looking for an easy discussion here.... Jesus says for us to abide in Him.... Because we cannot of ourselves bear fruit.... Much like my cucumber plants.... Or my watermellon plants.... They are vining plants.... They are not going to produce fruit if their various branches are broken off.... Which leads to my question....


(Joh 15:1-2 KJV)I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away : and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

So what does it mean when Jesus says "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away".... ?

In 1 Corinthians 5:5 We are shown an example of a branch being broken off. "To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

They will be saved scarcely by fire.

BroRog
Aug 27th 2011, 12:31 AM
Looking for an easy discussion here.... Jesus says for us to abide in Him.... Because we cannot of ourselves bear fruit.... Much like my cucumber plants.... Or my watermellon plants.... They are vining plants.... They are not going to produce fruit if their various branches are broken off.... Which leads to my question....


(Joh 15:1-2 KJV)I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away : and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

So what does it mean when Jesus says "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away".... ?The fruit is belief. If a man becomes a disciple of Jesus (the vine) but he doesn't continue to believe (continue to bear fruit) that man finds it harder and harder to understand the teachings of Jesus until he is incredulous as to why he believed in the first place (God removes that man from the vine.)

Slug1
Aug 27th 2011, 02:14 AM
The fruit is belief. If a man becomes a disciple of Jesus (the vine) but he doesn't continue to believe (continue to bear fruit) that man finds it harder and harder to understand the teachings of Jesus until he is incredulous as to why he believed in the first place (God removes that man from the vine.)Then why is belief... pruned? To create more belief in God? Then what does MORE belief in God accomplish? The person is saved more?

MaryFreeman
Aug 27th 2011, 03:44 AM
:confused .................................................. .............................

MaryFreeman
Aug 27th 2011, 03:46 AM
In 1 Corinthians 5:5 We are shown an example of a branch being broken off. "To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

They will be saved scarcely by fire.Ok.... Well this helps.... Can you expound?

MaryFreeman
Aug 27th 2011, 03:47 AM
Sorry I derailed your thread......I am only wondering if the branches that are removed by the Father are believers? And why are they removed? And what happens to them? I mean permanently?

BroRog
Aug 27th 2011, 05:50 AM
Then why is belief... pruned? To create more belief in God? Then what does MORE belief in God accomplish? The person is saved more?Belief isn't pruned. Jesus is talking about a very real phenomenon concerning knowledge and belief, especially as it pertains to believing his teachings. If a person believes what Jesus teaches him, then that person is given additional information. If he believes that information also, he is then given more information to believe. Each time a person believes what is true, he is given more truth to believe. Each new piece of information builds on the last.

However, if a person refuses to believe what Jesus tells him, then what he used to believe seems to fade and he begins to doubt. The more he doubts the more the teachings of Jesus seem to fade away. Eventually, what he thought he believed no longer seems to make sense, until eventually he believes nothing about Jesus or God.

For this reason he says,


Mark 4:23 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear." 24 And He was saying to them, "Take care what you listen to. By your standard of measure it will be measured to you; and more will be given you besides. 25 "For whoever has, to him [more] shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him."

The parable of the vine illustrates this point. Being on the vine does not represent salvation. It simply represents being a disciple of Jesus. He warns us, through this illustration, that we need to continue to believe him and to avoid seeking another wise man to follow. In this illustration, being on the vine represents a person who continues to follow Jesus. Bearing fruit is living according to his teaching, making application of his teaching in real life situations. Not bearing fruit represents the person who may believe what Jesus says, but will not have the courage or the will to put his teachings into practice. Eventually the branches that will not bear fruit wither. This represents the person who becomes plagued with doubt, uncertainty, and an unwillingness to believe what Jesus says. Eventually, the farmer prunes the vine of these branches. This represents God bringing on a spirit of delusion, because the person did not love the truth. Even what he had, i.e. knowledge of the kingdom and the light of Jesus' teachings, will be taken from him.

Slug1
Aug 27th 2011, 07:51 AM
Belief isn't pruned. Jesus is talking about a very real phenomenon concerning knowledge and belief, especially as it pertains to believing his teachings. If a person believes what Jesus teaches him, then that person is given additional information. If he believes that information also, he is then given more information to believe. Each time a person believes what is true, he is given more truth to believe. Each new piece of information builds on the last. Ummm, the term in the scripture is "fruit" though and that those on the vine MUST produce fruit and if they don't... they're booted off. If they do, then they're pruned so MORE fruit will result.

rejoice44
Aug 27th 2011, 01:58 PM
Ok.... Well this helps.... Can you expound?

We know what the fruit is, "Love, joy, peace, etc.--", with the end result salvation. Fruit bears fruit. The souls of men is the true fruit. If you are not bearing fruit, the fruit of the Spirit, of which end result is souls saved, then you are no earthly good, and need to be pruned. If you are saved, you are saved, but if you are only saved scarcely by fire, which means all your works will be burnt up in the refinement, then your body might as well be given to Satan to destroy, that you soul might be saved.

episkopos
Aug 27th 2011, 03:03 PM
We are to be changed/transformed into the likeness of Christ. We are to be dyed in the wool in our characters so that even when the Spirit is not on us, yet we reflect the righteousness of God.

BroRog
Aug 27th 2011, 03:43 PM
Ummm, the term in the scripture is "fruit" though and that those on the vine MUST produce fruit and if they don't... they're booted off. If they do, then they're pruned so MORE fruit will result.Doesn't pruning cut a person off the vine?

Slug1
Aug 27th 2011, 03:51 PM
Doesn't pruning cut a person off the vine?No, pruning does not "remove" a person from the vine. Pruning is for those who produce fruit, so they can produce MORE fruit from the vine.

rejoice44
Aug 27th 2011, 04:42 PM
Doesn't pruning cut a person off the vine? It is really a metaphor for removing someone from this life, because they are no longer profitable in this life. All flesh is destined to die, saved and unsaved. The saved that are no longer profitable in this life are removed.

BroRog
Aug 27th 2011, 07:25 PM
It is really a metaphor for removing someone from this life, because they are no longer profitable in this life. All flesh is destined to die, saved and unsaved. The saved that are no longer profitable in this life are removed.I don't see any evidence that those on the vine are saved.

BroRog
Aug 27th 2011, 07:28 PM
No, pruning does not "remove" a person from the vine. Pruning is for those who produce fruit, so they can produce MORE fruit from the vine.While that makes sense in horticulture, it doesn't seem to fit the parable. Jesus is the vine and his disciples are the branches. If a branch is cut off, it means that a person has been removed from the vine. See what he means? The issue is whether or not a person will continue to be his disciple. To abide is to continue to be a disciple.

mikebr
Aug 27th 2011, 07:48 PM
All the talk about a branches not being part of the vine makes no sense to me. The branch does not produce fruit. Only the vine can do that. The branch simply bears the fruit.

Here's my question for MaryFreeman. We know what the fruit is. It is love, peace, joy, self control, etc. So are there times when you are loving, joyful, in control, etc? and are there times when you are not those things. In other words sometimes you bear fruit, which can only be produced by the Spirit by the way, and there are other times when you don't. God is in the business of pruning you, cutting out the parts of you that don't bear His fruit. This causes you to bear more fruit.

Slug1
Aug 27th 2011, 07:49 PM
While that makes sense in horticulture, it doesn't seem to fit the parable. Jesus is the vine and his disciples are the branches. If a branch is cut off, it means that a person has been removed from the vine. See what he means? The issue is whether or not a person will continue to be his disciple. To abide is to continue to be a disciple.OK... this is what is spelled out in those scriptures. It makes sense in the Body of Christ also. A person accepts Christ, they begin to grow in their relationship with God through Christ and they volunteer to assist in a Bible Study class. In time, they are pruned and then they are the leader or lead person guiding the Bible Study. They are pruned again and they are led by God into a position of greater leadership in the church they serve God. They become a deacon or an elder. They are pruned again and this time God places into their heart and upon their spirit a new ministry to stand up in the church and this new ministry reaches outside the walls of the church and ministers to people out on the street and the lost are led to Christ. They are pruned again and this ministry leader is anointed an evangelist and they take what was once a church level, and then town level and then state level evangelical ministry out on the road and eventually all around the world.

It's not about horticulture at all BroRog... it's about a person who is on the vine being pruned so God can do MORE through them... more fruit is a result.

Now, when a person accepts Christ and they don't produce fruit or stop producing fruit (become unfruitful)... then they are removed. They aren't pruned at all.

BroRog
Aug 27th 2011, 07:58 PM
OK... this is what is spelled out in those scriptures. It makes sense in the Body of Christ also. A person accepts Christ, they begin to grow in their relationship with God through Christ and they volunteer to assist in a Bible Study class. In time, they are pruned and then they are the leader or lead person guiding the Bible Study. They are pruned again and they are led by God into a position of greater leadership in the church they serve God. They become a deacon or an elder. They are pruned again and this time God places into their heart and upon their spirit a new ministry to stand up in the church and this new ministry reaches outside the walls of the church and ministers to people out on the street and the lost are led to Christ. They are pruned again and this ministry leader is anointed an evangelist and they take what was once a church level, and then town level and then state level evangelical ministry out on the road and eventually all around the world.Fine. But this is not what Jesus is talking about. He is not talking about pruning a believer. Pruning is removing branches from the vine. By analogy, pruning is removing a disciple from Jesus.

Slug1
Aug 27th 2011, 08:01 PM
Fine. But this is not what Jesus is talking about. He is not talking about pruning a believer. Pruning is removing branches from the vine. By analogy, pruning is removing a disciple from Jesus.Not according to that scripture. Pruning is ALL about enabling a Christian to be able to be used by God for bigger and better work so God can produce more fruit through them.

The scripture spells it out. Pruning for production of more fruit and removal from the vine if no fruit is produced.

MaryFreeman
Aug 27th 2011, 09:46 PM
While that makes sense in horticulture, it doesn't seem to fit the parable. Jesus is the vine and his disciples are the branches. If a branch is cut off, it means that a person has been removed from the vine. See what he means? The issue is whether or not a person will continue to be his disciple. To abide is to continue to be a disciple.But this doesn't make sense.... He says those who do not produce fruit are removed and those who do are pruned.... When I prune my plants I don't cut branches off them but I do snip leaves and such off the branches so they can concentrate on growing more....

MaryFreeman
Aug 27th 2011, 09:49 PM
All the talk about a branches not being part of the vine makes no sense to me. The branch does not produce fruit. Only the vine can do that. The branch simply bears the fruit.

Here's my question for MaryFreeman. We know what the fruit is. It is love, peace, joy, self control, etc. So are there times when you are loving, joyful, in control, etc? and are there times when you are not those things. In other words sometimes you bear fruit, which can only be produced by the Spirit by the way, and there are other times when you don't. God is in the business of pruning you, cutting out the parts of you that don't bear His fruit. This causes you to bear more fruit.Ok that is what I thought.... I will say it isn't the vine that produces the fruit but the branches cannot produce (manifest) the fruit without the vine.... My quandary is who is the "taken away" branch representing.... I know the branches are all believers.... And I understand the pruning.... But what does Jesus mean when the branch that is in Him that doesn't produce fruit is removed.... What does He mean by removed and where are they removed to?

mikebr
Aug 27th 2011, 10:06 PM
Ok that is what I thought.... I will say it isn't the vine that produces the fruit but the branches cannot produce (manifest) the fruit without the vine.... My quandary is who is the "taken away" branch representing.... I know the branches are all believers.... And I understand the pruning.... But what does Jesus mean when the branch that is in Him that doesn't produce fruit is removed.... What does He mean by removed and where are they removed to?

Our works are tried as by fire (These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.) 1 Peter 1:7. God is an all consuming fire.

Don't we change. Even Jesus learned obedience. The light (fire) exposes who we really are causing us to trust Him to be who and what we cannot be.

BroRog
Aug 28th 2011, 02:12 AM
Not according to that scripture. Pruning is ALL about enabling a Christian to be able to be used by God for bigger and better work so God can produce more fruit through them.

The scripture spells it out. Pruning for production of more fruit and removal from the vine if no fruit is produced.Okay. I see what you are saying.

Slug1
Aug 28th 2011, 02:41 AM
Okay. I see what you are saying.OK... so now that you see what I'm saying... do you agree or disagree with what you see in what I said?

Butch5
Aug 28th 2011, 03:04 AM
From the vine??? And to where????

It's in the passage. They are pruned from the vine and gathered to be burned.

Butch5
Aug 28th 2011, 03:09 AM
Romans 11:21 comes to mind.....

Maybe....just maybe instead of ripping out all the parts of the Bible ("well I don't have to do that because.....") we don't want to abide in and custom forming God's word to abide in us, perhaps we should abide in God's Word? Just a thought....

I'm not following you.

Butch5
Aug 28th 2011, 03:10 AM
Without turning this thread into OSAS vs NOSAS, I simply think this is one of the clearer passages that absolutely shows OSAS is not Biblical. I tend to think these are the goats of Matthew 25 for one.

I also think it is a very clear passage.

MaryFreeman
Aug 28th 2011, 03:24 AM
It's in the passage. They are pruned from the vine and gathered to be burned.It just isn't this easy....

I also think it is a very clear passage. It most certainly is not! Are you saying that a believer who loves the Lord but does not produce fruit loses his salvation? This is simply unbiblical as it goes against the doctrine of Grace.... We are not saved by what we do.... We are saved by God's Grace.... What we don't produce does not affect our salvation.... Now if we choose to walk away from the Lord.... That is a whole nother thread....

BroRog
Aug 28th 2011, 03:42 AM
OK... so now that you see what I'm saying... do you agree or disagree with what you see in what I said?I was going by memory before. I thought the pruning represented being cut off the vine. I was wrong about that. Where we may disagree, I don't know, is in your interpretation of the fruit. I don't think the fruit is the works we do. I think the "fruit" is that we continue to believe the words Jesus tells us and that we love one another. If that is what you meant, then we agree.

BroRog
Aug 28th 2011, 03:46 AM
Without turning this thread into OSAS vs NOSAS, I simply think this is one of the clearer passages that absolutely shows OSAS is not Biblical. I tend to think these are the goats of Matthew 25 for one.This passage does refute OSAS but not the perseverance of the saints. Jesus points out that his apostles have already been "cleaned", i.e pruned and will not leave the vine due to a promise God made to Jesus. (15:3)

mailmandan
Aug 28th 2011, 01:17 PM
Looking for an easy discussion here.... Jesus says for us to abide in Him.... Because we cannot of ourselves bear fruit.... Much like my cucumber plants.... Or my watermellon plants.... They are vining plants.... They are not going to produce fruit if their various branches are broken off.... Which leads to my question....


(Joh 15:1-2 KJV)I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away : and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

So what does it mean when Jesus says "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away".... ?

There seems to be three different interpretations of this passage of Scripture.

1. The standard Arminian interpretation is that the “fruitless branches” are genuine Christians who, because of their fruitlessness, lose their salvation.

2. Another position is that the “fruitless branches” are genuine Christians who, because of their fruitlessness, undergo divine discipline. Their “removal” and judgment is physical death, not spiritual death.

3. The other position is to understand the "fruitless branches" to be so-called "disciples" who experience only an external, superficial connection with Jesus. Their allegiance "is not matched by an internal, spiritual union by personal faith and regeneration."

I see the phrase "in Me" here as part of the metaphor of the Vine and not "in the body of Christ" under the New Covenant, which was not yet fully established (John 7:38,39; Romans 8:1; Ephesians 1:13). A branch that bears no fruit is obviously dead. Therefore, like Judas, it is cut off. The view that the fruitless branches are unregenerate is supported by what John’s gospel says about unsaved so called "believers." In other words, John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not born again. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who "believed him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of mob tactics and attempted murder of the one they have professed to believe (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that “many of his disciples . . . said, ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’” These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says “do not believe” (vs. 64).

Underlying the meaning of this term abide is the idea of belief. Negatively this is seen in chapter five of John’s gospel: “And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent” (John 5:38). Positively, it occurs in this sense of belief in chapter six: “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him” (John 6:56). Abiding, then, requires believing. In John 13:10, Jesus said, "He that is washed needeth not except to wash his feet." Once you've been spiritually cleansed, or saved, you need only a little foot-washing periodically. You don't need to take the major bath of salvation again. Jesus then told His disciples, "Ye are clean, but not all of you. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean" (vv. 10-11). Jesus was well aware of a distinction among His own disciples regarding their salvation: the contrast between Judas and the eleven. I believe that contrast is carried into the fifteenth chapter, where Jesus talks about the two kinds of branches. Although Judas appeared to have been a believer, Jesus referred to him as a devil! (vs. 70) who did not truly believe (vvs. 64,71). Judas was a branch that did not abide and bear fruit.

The implausibility of the Arminian view is seen in that Jesus declared in John 10:28-29 that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish. More decisive still is the word used in John 15:6. There Jesus says that the fruitless branches will be “cast out” (a form of the Greek verb ballo, “to cast,” “to throw,” together with the adverb exo, “outside” or “out”). But in John 6:37 Jesus uses virtually identical terminology and says, “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (ekballo with exo). The Arminian view would require that what Jesus denied of the believer in 6:37 he affirms of the believer in 15:6. Surely neither our Lord in speaking, nor John in recording his words, is guilty of the most obvious of theological contradictions.

My conclusion, then, is that this passage does not teach that a genuine born again Christian can lose his/her salvation. It does teach that it is impossible to bear fruit apart from a life-giving, saving union with Jesus (v. 4) and that it is impossible not to bear fruit when that connection with Jesus truly exists (v. 5). It also teaches that some (many?) who profess to be "united" with Jesus, who claim to "believe" in Him, and who even "follow" Him as "disciples" will be revealed by their lack of fruit as spurious and thus subject to eternal judgment.

Butch5
Aug 28th 2011, 01:47 PM
It just isn't this easy....

Yes, Mary, it is. Many Protestant Christians simply don't want to believe it. They've been so indoctrinated with the teachings of Martin Luther that they attempt to make the Scriptures fit the Reformation doctrines.


It most certainly is not! Are you saying that a believer who loves the Lord but does not produce fruit loses his salvation? This is simply unbiblical as it goes against the doctrine of Grace.... We are not saved by what we do.... We are saved by God's Grace.... What we don't produce does not affect our salvation.... Now if we choose to walk away from the Lord.... That is a whole nother thread....

It is very clear. The question is whether we are going to heed the Scriptures or the doctrines of men. I notice you mentioned the "Doctrines of Grace" what are the doctrines of grace? Are they not "MEN'S" interpretations of the Scriptures? Thus they are the doctrines of men. Let's look at what Jesus said.


John 15:1-8(KJV)
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Jesus said every branch that does not bear fruit is taken way. Notice His words, every branch "IN ME," that is a Christian. Paul repeatedly speaks of being "In Christ". Jesus told His disciples right here in this passage to abide "IN ME". To be in Christ is to be a Christian. Jesus said every branch "IN ME" that does not bear fruit is taken away. Those words are crystal clear. A Chrsitian who does not bear fruit is taken away. Jesus gives an anaology of what happens. From the context of the passage it would seem that Jesus is saying that bearing fruit is how one abides in Christ. If that is the case then not bearing fruit is not abiding in Christ and those branches that do not abide in Christ are gathered to be burned.


Are you saying that a believer who loves the Lord but does not produce fruit loses his salvation?

Unbiblical? Are you saying that Jesus' words are unbiblical. What do you mean a person who loves the Lord but does not bear fruit? Here is what Jesus said.

John 14:23-24(KJV)
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

According to Jesus if a person does not keep His sayings (His commands, bears fruit) he does not love Him. So, I would have to ask, who is this person who loves the Lord but does not produce fruit? According to Jesus this person does not exist.


We are not saved by what we do....

Whose words do we accept, those of the Prostestant Reformers or those of Christ and his Apostles?


John 5:28-29(KJV)
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The parable of the sheep and the goats in Mathew 25.

Romans 2:5-11(KJV)
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Revelation 20:11-15(KJV)
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

James 2:24(KJV)
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It may not be popular in modern Christendom, but it is what the Scriptures teach.

Butch5
Aug 28th 2011, 01:56 PM
This passage does refute OSAS but not the perseverance of the saints. Jesus points out that his apostles have already been "cleaned", i.e pruned and will not leave the vine due to a promise God made to Jesus. (15:3)

What promise would that be?

BroRog
Aug 28th 2011, 04:29 PM
What promise would that be?Jesus mentions that the Father promised him that he would not lose any of the twelve except one.

MaryFreeman
Aug 28th 2011, 09:54 PM
Yes, Mary, it is. Many Protestant Christians simply don't want to believe it. They've been so indoctrinated with the teachings of Martin Luther that they attempt to make the Scriptures fit the Reformation doctrines. Martin Luther was an arrogant and puffed up anti Semetic monk with a penchant for rudeness.... Why would I care what he had to say? I am saying the verse in question is not as easy as you make it out to be to understand or I wouldn't be struggling with it....




It is very clear. The question is whether we are going to heed the Scriptures or the doctrines of men. I notice you mentioned the "Doctrines of Grace" what are the doctrines of grace? Are they not "MEN'S" interpretations of the Scriptures? Thus they are the doctrines of men. Let's look at what Jesus said.
I mentioned the DOCTRINE of Grace....

Eph 2:8-9 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jesus said every branch that does not bear fruit is taken way. Notice His words, every branch "IN ME," that is a Christian. Paul repeatedly speaks of being "In Christ". Jesus told His disciples right here in this passage to abide "IN ME". To be in Christ is to be a Christian. Jesus said every branch "IN ME" that does not bear fruit is taken away. Those words are crystal clear. A Chrsitian who does not bear fruit is taken away. Jesus gives an anaology of what happens. From the context of the passage it would seem that Jesus is saying that bearing fruit is how one abides in Christ. If that is the case then not bearing fruit is not abiding in Christ and those branches that do not abide in Christ are gathered to be burned. Sigh.... I feel we are going in circles.... A christian is one who loves the Lord.... Right? I do disagree with your opinion of how one abides in Christ....

My tomato plants have plently of branches.... Each one should have at least one group of two or three tomatoes on it.... IF the branch is not connected to the stalk (vine) it does not get the nutrients it needs to produce tomatoes.... I just had to completely remove a branch from one plant because it broke.... But not all the way.... It was "hanging by a thread".... And it didn't have any fruit to show.... So I removed it.... There are branches that are fully attached but don't produce tomatoes.... I take them off too so that the trunk (vine.... If you will) can concentrate it's energy on the branches that are producing tomatoes.... Still those branches had the opportunity to poduce fruit as they were "abiding" in the "vine".... They just weren't productive....




Unbiblical? Are you saying that Jesus' words are unbiblical. What do you mean a person who loves the Lord but does not bear fruit? Here is what Jesus said.

John 14:23-24(KJV)
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
Um.... Two things.... No I am not saying Jesus' words are unbiblical.... I am saying that works based salvation is not biblical.... We are saved by Grace from sin.... Not because we chanted 300 Our Fathers and counted 1,598,000 beads and lit 32 candles in honor of dead people.... Yacka yacka yacka.... Or just was a good person in general.... There are going to be tons of murderers in heaven and tons of charitable folks in the Lake of Fire.... Salvation is based on what Jesus did for us.... Not what we did for Him.... If we don't accept that free gift and put ourselves under grace.... Then we don't love Him.... The judgment against the condemned is because "they did not believe in the only begotten Son of God".... What we do is because we are grateful for the grace shown and simply want to please our Lord....


According to Jesus if a person does not keep His sayings (His commands, bears fruit) he does not love Him. So, I would have to ask, who is this person who loves the Lord but does not produce fruit? According to Jesus this person does not exist.
Sigh.... This is the very question I am trying to get answers to....

Look I don't believe keeping His sayings is the same as bearing fruit.... Bearing fruit is what happens when you keep His sayings.... The words IN ME are throwing me off.... A christian by definition is Christlike and does keep His sayings.... With that logic they must then bear the fruit that is supposed to come of those who do keep His sayings....



Whose words do we accept, those of the Prostestant Reformers or those of Christ and his Apostles?
Would you turn loose of the "Protestant Reformers" junk? I don't need others to read the word and interpret it for me.... That is what I have the Holy Spirit for.... And I came to the conclusion that A: Salvation and Justification are two different things (A whole nother thread.... No derails please).... B: You cannot be saved because of anything you do.... Because if you did you would be able to boast.... Which is why it is a free gift of Grace...

I merely brought the question of one passage I was having trouble with.... Something I do not usually do.... Just to gather ideas....



John 5:28-29(KJV)
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The parable of the sheep and the goats in Mathew 25.
If you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.... If you have by faith accepted the free gift of salvation.... You have done good and will receive everlasting life.... Those who chose not to.... Chose to remain under the condemnation Adam brought on all mankind when he sinned....

The parable of the sheep and the goats IMHO is a parable about the people living during the tribulation.... Those who get saved after the Rapture.... Which is not the same as the verses quoted here.... The verses quoted here refer to the Great White Throne judgment.... Which happens 1,007 years after the Rapture.... Which is not the topic of this discussion....


Romans 2:5-11(KJV)
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
Again.... Considering the only thing that can be done to obtain salvation.... It is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone for salvation that gains eternal life.... The physical works we do and the way we behave is a result of salvation by Grace.... Not a cause....


Revelation 20:11-15(KJV)
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
It is my belief that the folks found in this passage are here because they did not believe in the Son of God.... Those who decided to put their faith in the law and dutifully following it to the letter will be judged by the works they did.... Were they following the law they so staunchly held to? I believe they will fall woefully short....


James 2:24(KJV)
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.Justification is what happens AFTER salvation.... Salvation is a free gift PERIOD.... If you wish to be approved of God then you seek justification.... There are those who reach heaven only by the skin of their teeth....


It may not be popular in modern Christendom, but it is what the Scriptures teach.I didn't want to debate faith vs. works! I merely wished to discuss what Jesus meant by what He said about those branches IN HIM which are unfruitful.... They are IN HIM.... Which means they are saved.... Obviously they chose to believe and have faith in Him.... So what is the fruit they are not producing that is causing them to be removed?

keck553
Aug 29th 2011, 04:21 PM
I am only wondering if the branches that are removed by the Father are believers? And why are they removed? And what happens to them? I mean permanently?

James says that faith without actions is dead. Seems to me that is unbelief, not belief.

Dead branches are cut off.

keck553
Aug 29th 2011, 04:24 PM
I'm not following you.

Simple question. Is our desire to conform to Christ, or edit His Word to conform to our religion?

mailmandan
Aug 30th 2011, 04:28 PM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Butch5

Jesus said every branch that does not bear fruit is taken way. Notice His words, every branch "IN ME," that is a Christian. Paul repeatedly speaks of being "In Christ". Jesus told His disciples right here in this passage to abide "IN ME". To be in Christ is to be a Christian. Jesus said every branch "IN ME" that does not bear fruit is taken away. Those words are crystal clear.

When Jesus spoke these words "IN ME," prior to Him being glorified, how many people had received the Holy Spirit and were in the body of Christ? (Acts 11:17; Romans 8:1; Ephesians 1:13). In John 7:38,39 we read -
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. Those words are crystal clear. So "in Me" here is part of the metaphor of the Vine and not "in the body of Christ" under the New Covenant, which was not yet fully established.

A branch that bears NO fruit is a DEAD branch. To be "in Christ" under the new covenant is to be a Christian (2 Corinthians 5:17). To be a dead branch self-attached to the Vine, like Judas Iscariot is to not be a Christian. Though Judas was externally attached to the Vine, he did not bear fruit or abide in Christ because he was an unbeliever and a devil (John 6:64; 71) unlike the remaining 11 disciples (John 13:10,11). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the Vine and are removed to their own judgment and for the benefit of the other branches.

Slug1
Aug 30th 2011, 04:37 PM
When Jesus spoke these words "IN ME," prior to Him being glorified, how many people had received the Holy Spirit and were in the body of Christ? (Acts 11:17; Romans 8:1; Ephesians 1:13). In John 7:38,39 we read -He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in Me" here is part of the metaphor of the Vine and not "in the body of Christ" under the New Covenant, which was not yet fully established.

A branch that bears NO fruit is a DEAD branch. To be "in Christ" under the new covenant is to be a Christian (2 Corinthians 5:17). To be a dead branch self-attached to the Vine, like Judas Iscariot is to not be a Christian. Though Judas was externally attached to the Vine, he did not bear fruit or abide in Christ because he was an unbeliever and a devil (John 6:64; 71) unlike the remaining 11 disciples (John 13:10,11). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the Vine and are removed to their own judgment and for the benefit of the other branches.We have to divide the John scriptures with other scriptures as well. In the Parable of the Sower, Jesus details that some who ARE fruitful become UNfruitful. The only way that they were once fruitful means they are IN CHRIST. Then they become unfruitful. No matter "what" the term "fruitful" means based on understanding, it's clear that some "In Christ" fall away in some way and become unfruitful. Then when we apply the scriptures from John to understand what will happen to those who become unfruitful... we receive an answer. They are removed from the vine and later put in the fire.

divaD
Aug 30th 2011, 04:49 PM
When Jesus spoke these words "IN ME," prior to Him being glorified, how many people had received the Holy Spirit and were in the body of Christ? (Acts 11:17; Romans 8:1; Ephesians 1:13). In John 7:38,39 we read -He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in Me" here is part of the metaphor of the Vine and not "in the body of Christ" under the New Covenant, which was not yet fully established.

A branch that bears NO fruit is a DEAD branch. To be "in Christ" under the new covenant is to be a Christian (2 Corinthians 5:17). To be a dead branch self-attached to the Vine, like Judas Iscariot is to not be a Christian. Though Judas was externally attached to the Vine, he did not bear fruit or abide in Christ because he was an unbeliever and a devil (John 6:64; 71) unlike the remaining 11 disciples (John 13:10,11). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the Vine and are removed to their own judgment and for the benefit of the other branches.



There's a keyword in John 13 that is used numerous times...'abide'. That means remain or continue, doesn't it? Wouldn't that imply that at one time someone was saved, but did not continue in Christ? To abide in Christ is to do His commandments, I would think. for example, what if a brother absolutely has something against another brother, and as a result, literally hates that brother, and refuses not to hate him nor forgive him? How could that person still be abiding in Christ at that point? How could that brother produce fruit with hatred in his heart like that? This doesn't imply that this brother was at one time like Judas tho, where he was never saved to begin with, does it?

mailmandan
Aug 30th 2011, 04:59 PM
We have to divide the John scriptures with other scriptures as well. In the Parable of the Sower, Jesus details that some who ARE fruitful become UNfruitful. The only way that they were once fruitful means they are IN CHRIST. Then they become unfruitful. No matter "what" the term "fruitful" means based on understanding, it's clear that some "In Christ" fall away in some way and become unfruitful. Then when we apply the scriptures from John to understand what will happen to those who become unfruitful... we receive an answer. They are removed from the vine and later put in the fire.

In the Parable of the Sower, I don't see where fruit was produced from the seed which fell by the wayside, on the rock or among the thorns. Only the seed which fell on good ground yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." I would conclude that all Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. In the Parable of the Sower, where does Jesus detail that some who are fruitful become unfruitful? John 15 mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but nothing is said of branches that did bear fruit but then quit bearing fruit.

Slug1
Aug 30th 2011, 05:09 PM
In the Parable of the Sower, I don't see where fruit was produced from the seed which fell by the wayside, on the rock or among the thorns. Only the seed which fell on good ground yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." I would conclude that all Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. In the Parable of the Sower, where does Jesus detail that some who are fruitful become unfruitful? John 15 mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but nothing is said of branches that did bear fruit but then quit bearing fruit.Let me help you then:

Matthew 13: 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

To become unfruitful means only one thing... that they were fruitful only to become, UNfruitful. A person who is unsaved is NEVER called fruitful so they can NEVER become UNfruitful either. Only those who are fruitful CAN become unfruitful. So, those in the stony soil were once in Christ, were fruitful and fell away due to the reason that Jesus spells out for us so we can understand WHY they fell away.

mailmandan
Aug 30th 2011, 05:22 PM
There's a keyword in John 13 that is used numerous times...'abide'. That means remain or continue, doesn't it? Wouldn't that imply that at one time someone was saved, but did not continue in Christ? To abide in Christ is to do His commandments, I would think. for example, what if a brother absolutely has something against another brother, and as a result, literally hates that brother, and refuses not to hate him nor forgive him? How could that person still be abiding in Christ at that point? How could that brother produce fruit with hatred in his heart like that? This doesn't imply that this brother was at one time like Judas tho, where he was never saved to begin with, does it?

The word "abide" does mean to remain or continue. Judas did not remain or continue which demonstrated that he was never saved in the first place. The remaining or continuing is evidence that we were saved in the first place (1 John 2:19). Notice, they went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. Just like Judas. As far as your hypothetical situation about a brother who hates his brother and refuses not to hate him or forgive him. What would that tell us about this person according to Scripture? Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15)

keck553
Aug 30th 2011, 05:22 PM
Let me help you then:

Matthew 13: 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

To become unfruitful means only one thing... that they were fruitful only to become, UNfruitful. A person who is unsaved is NEVER called fruitful so they can NEVER become UNfruitful either. Only those who are fruitful CAN become unfruitful. So, those in the stony soil were once in Christ, were fruitful and fell away due to the reason that Jesus spells out for us so we can understand WHY they fell away.

And 'falling away' can only be in the context of 'falling away from...." I've seen it too often already, and it seems to be increasing.

Noonzie
Aug 30th 2011, 05:31 PM
And 'falling away' can only be in the context of 'falling away from...." I've seen it too often already, and it seems to be increasing.

This increasing humanistic doctrin is focused on self righteousness and is death. Faith is given by grace from the LORD. We are not speaking of cheap grace. It is the grace that provides the converted heart a longing to glorify God and delight in His law. If you have been saved, your justification is not in question. However, a lack of delight in the commandments of the LORD puts a person's conversion in question. Anything that is not faith is sin.

keck553
Aug 30th 2011, 05:44 PM
This increasing humanistic doctrin is focused on self righteousness and is death. Faith is given by grace from the LORD. We are not speaking of cheap grace. It is the grace that provides the converted heart a longing to glorify God and delight in His law. If you have been saved, your justification is not in question. However, a lack of delight in the commandments of the LORD puts a person's conversion in question. Anything that is not faith is sin.

I've liked that term (cheap grace) ever since I read it used by Fenris. At any rate, there is a thing known as 'common grace,' but to the demise of universalists, common grace is not saving grace.

Unfortunately, I've known too many brothers who love God and have incredible zeal to pursue God who have fallen into unbelief regarding the identity of our Messiah. I beleive they were genuine. Again the Bible speaks of a falling away. I don't think the Bible is speaking to those who had no saving faith in the first place; that would be a false assumption by definition.

Lack of delight in God's commandments? Which ones? The ones Christians keep? I've heard many folks speak of Christians who do not delight in the Law of the LORD. In fact I've heard Christians call the Law of the LORD a curse

mailmandan
Aug 30th 2011, 05:44 PM
Let me help you then:

Matthew 13: 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

To become unfruitful means only one thing... that they were fruitful only to become, UNfruitful. A person who is unsaved is NEVER called fruitful so they can NEVER become UNfruitful either. Only those who are fruitful CAN become unfruitful. So, those in the stony soil were once in Christ, were fruitful and fell away due to the reason that Jesus spells out for us so we can understand WHY they fell away.

It sounds like you are making an assumption here. Nothing was said of them being fruitful to begin with. They heard the word, the word was choked and they became unfruitful (no fruit). Other translations say:

Bible in Basic English - put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit.

Complete Jewish Bible - so that it produces nothing.

English Standard Version - choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

New Century Version - So the teaching does not produce fruit in that person's life.

New Revised Standard - choke the word, and it yields nothing.

Revised Standard Version - choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

The Amplified Bible reads, "and it yields no fruit."

That is not the same thing as "were fruitful, only to become unfruitful."

Slug1
Aug 30th 2011, 05:53 PM
It sounds like you are making an assumption here. Nothing was said of them being fruitful to begin with. They heard the word, the word was choked and they became unfruitful (no fruit). Other translations say:

Bible in Basic English - put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit.

Complete Jewish Bible - so that it produces nothing.

English Standard Version - choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

New Century Version - So the teaching does not produce fruit in that person's life.

New Revised Standard - choke the word, and it yields nothing.

Revised Standard Version - choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

The Amplified Bible reads, "and it yields no fruit."

That is not the same thing as "were fruitful, only to become unfruitful."The scripture says that those in the stony soil "become" unfruitful due to the reason that Jesus spelled out for us so we can understand why they fell away from Him.

If they are never fruitful at some point, then they can't "become" unfruitful. If they were never in Christ and never fruitful, the scripture would say they were "never" fruitful instead. Not say that they "become" unfruitful, like it does helping us understand that they were once producing fruit and we understand that the only way to produce fruit, is to be IN Christ.

Yes, all you posted helps us understand WHY they became unfruitful by helping us understand the meaning of the word, "choke". The world/deceitfulness/riches got to them and the world overcame them and they fell away from Christ.

mailmandan
Aug 30th 2011, 06:51 PM
The scripture says that those in the stony soil "become" unfruitful due to the reason that Jesus spelled out for us so we can understand why they fell away from Him.

If they are never fruitful at some point, then they can't "become" unfruitful. If they were never in Christ and never fruitful, the scripture would say they were "never" fruitful instead. Not say that they "become" unfruitful, like it does helping us understand that they were once producing fruit and we understand that the only way to produce fruit, is to be IN Christ.

Yes, all you posted helps us understand WHY they became unfruitful by helping us understand the meaning of the word, "choke". The world/deceitfulness/riches got to them and the world overcame them and they fell away from Christ.

I still don't see where choke the word, and it proves unfruitful English Standard Version or choke the word, and it yields nothing New Revised Standard etc... amounts to did produce fruit but later became unfruitful and fell away from Christ. The world/deceitfulness/riches got to them which resulted in no fruit, proves unfruitful, yields nothing. Only the seed which fell on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." Nothing is mentioned in this Parable about the seed which fell among the thorns being fruitful, only unfruitful. You are assuming that if they were never fruitful, the scripture would say they were "never" fruitful instead of saying they "become" unfruitful. Again, does not produce fruit in that person's life, yields nothing, proves unfruitful, yields no fruit, is not the same thing as "was fruitful, only to later become unfruitful."

Slug1
Aug 30th 2011, 07:02 PM
I still don't see where choke the word, and it proves unfruitful English Standard Version or choke the word, and it yields nothing New Revised Standard etc... amounts to did produce fruit but later became unfruitful and fell away from Christ. The world/deceitfulness/riches got to them which resulted in no fruit, proves unfruitful, yields nothing. Only the seed which fell on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." Nothing is mentioned in this Parable about the seed which fell among the thorns being fruitful, only unfruitful. You are assuming that if they were never fruitful, the scripture would say they were "never" fruitful instead of saying they "become" unfruitful. Again, does not produce fruit in that person's life, yields nothing, proves unfruitful, yields no fruit, is not the same thing as "was fruitful, only to later become unfruitful."Then balance the stony soil with the thorny soil. This part of the parable helps out then. A person in the thorny soil only endures for a time.

Mark 4: 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.

Whether this "time" they endured was for only a moment or for 1 year, 5-10 years or longer. While they were in Christ, they endured and as Jesus spells it out for us to understand what caused these people to fall away from Him and abide in Him no longer. In this case it was tribulation/persecution.

If the person in this example was NEVER in Christ, then they'd NEVER have endured at all only to later, stop enduring. For a person to be described as "so endured for a time", means that they were once enduring.

So this scripture is clear also, they were IN Christ for a time just like those in the stony soil were IN Christ for only some time as well. Two examples of those IN Christ described as enduing and being fruitful... only to stop enduring and stop producing fruit AND, Jesus also spells out the reasons for their falling away from Him.

BroRog
Aug 30th 2011, 07:25 PM
Let me help you then:

Matthew 13: 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

To become unfruitful means only one thing... that they were fruitful only to become, UNfruitful. A person who is unsaved is NEVER called fruitful so they can NEVER become UNfruitful either. Only those who are fruitful CAN become unfruitful. So, those in the stony soil were once in Christ, were fruitful and fell away due to the reason that Jesus spells out for us so we can understand WHY they fell away.I disagree. I know how much we want to hear Jesus talk about all the things we do for him, which leads us to interpret the "fruit" as things we accomplish for him. But in this parable the "fruit" is the person who enters into the next age in order to be given eternal life. When a person is resurrected into eternal life, this is the fruit.

Slug1
Aug 30th 2011, 07:36 PM
I disagree. I know how much we want to hear Jesus talk about all the things we do for him, which leads us to interpret the "fruit" as things we accomplish for him. But in this parable the "fruit" is the person who enters into the next age in order to be given eternal life. When a person is resurrected into eternal life, this is the fruit.Don't get what you're saying BroRog. The topic of fruit is only 1/2 that parable, 1/4 that become unfruitful and 1/4 that are fruitful. 1/4 is about endurance and the other 1/4 is about those never IN Christ.

BroRog
Aug 30th 2011, 07:42 PM
Don't get what you're saying BroRog. The topic of fruit is only 1/2 that parable, 1/4 that become unfruitful and 1/4 that are fruitful. 1/4 is about endurance and the other 1/4 is about those never IN Christ.The fruit in the parable represents enduring to the end.

Slug1
Aug 30th 2011, 07:44 PM
The fruit in the parable represents enduring to the end.Right and Jesus informs us why some IN Him... don't.

BroRog
Aug 30th 2011, 07:46 PM
Right and Jesus informs us why some IN Him... don't.I disagree. There is nothing in the parable to suggest that the third soil is "IN him".

Slug1
Aug 30th 2011, 07:47 PM
I disagree. There is nothing in the parable to suggest that the third soil is "IN him".Then how does a person endure for only a time? Anyone NOT in Christ is NOT enduring at all and CAN'T be considered a person who endures for only a "time".

BroRog
Aug 30th 2011, 07:50 PM
Then how does a person endure for only a time? Anyone NOT in Christ is NOT enduring at all and CAN'T be considered a person who endures for only a "time".Where does it say THAT in the text?

Noonzie
Aug 30th 2011, 07:54 PM
I've liked that term (cheap grace) ever since I read it used by Fenris. At any rate, there is a thing known as 'common grace,' but to the demise of universalists, common grace is not saving grace.

Unfortunately, I've known too many brothers who love God and have incredible zeal to pursue God who have fallen into unbelief regarding the identity of our Messiah. I beleive they were genuine. Again the Bible speaks of a falling away. I don't think the Bible is speaking to those who had no saving faith in the first place; that would be a false assumption by definition.

Lack of delight in God's commandments? Which ones? The ones Christians keep? I've heard many folks speak of Christians who do not delight in the Law of the LORD. In fact I've heard Christians call the Law of the LORD a curse

Delighting in God's laws speaks to our converted heart. Paul speaks directly to this in Romans 7:
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Luther makes an excellent point related to sin and those who are not living by faith and feel like they can do outword works to secure their righteousness:

In chapter 7, St. Paul says, "The law is spiritual." What does that mean? If the law were physical, then it could be satisfied by works, but since it is spiritual, no one can satisfy it unless everything he does springs from the depths of the heart. But no one can give such a heart except the Spirit of God, who makes the person be like the law, so that he actually conceives a heartfelt longing for the law and henceforward does everything, not through fear or coercion, but from a free heart. Such a law is spiritual since it can only be loved and fulfilled by such a heart and such a spirit. If the Spirit is not in the heart, then there remain sin, aversion and enmity against the law, which in itself is good, just and holy.

You must get used to the idea that it is one thing to do the works of the law and quite another to fulfill it. The works of the law are every thing that a person does or can do of his own free will and by his own powers to obey the law. But because in doing such works the heart abhors the law and yet is forced to obey it, the works are a total loss and are completely useless. That is what St. Paul means in chapter 3 when he says, "No human being is justified before God through the works of the law." From this you can see that the schoolmasters [i.e., the scholastic theologians] and sophists are seducers when they teach that you can prepare yourself for grace by means of works. How can anybody prepare himself for good by means of works if he does no good work except with aversion and constraint in his heart? How can such a work please God, if it proceeds from an averse and unwilling heart?

MaryFreeman
Aug 30th 2011, 07:54 PM
Where does it say THAT in the text?Mar 4:17 KJV
(17) And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Slug1
Aug 30th 2011, 07:59 PM
Where does it say THAT in the text?See post # 61.

Is your Bible still packed away :P

keck553
Aug 30th 2011, 08:49 PM
Delighting in God's laws speaks to our converted heart. Paul speaks directly to this in Romans 7:
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So does David. Psalm 1. Was he wrong?


Luther makes an excellent point related to sin and those who are not living by faith and feel like they can do outword works to secure their righteousness:

Luther was an anti-semite. In my book that disqualifies him.

Noonzie
Aug 30th 2011, 09:05 PM
So does David. Psalm 1. Was he wrong?
I am not sure what your question is? Yes Paul delighted in God's law, and yes David delighted in God's law. I assume we agree on this. I am not sure what your question is referring to?

MaryFreeman
Aug 30th 2011, 09:10 PM
Luther was an anti-semite. In my book that disqualifies him.:agree::amen::yes:

Butch5
Aug 30th 2011, 10:27 PM
Martin Luther was an arrogant and puffed up anti Semetic monk with a penchant for rudeness.... Why would I care what he had to say? I am saying the verse in question is not as easy as you make it out to be to understand or I wouldn't be struggling with it....

Regardless of how we feel about Martin Luther modern Protestantism is indoctrinated with his teachings, one of which you mentioned below. If you look at church history you find that the church “DID NOT” teach that a Christian did nothing in regard to salvation. That teaching came into the church with the Reformation, specifically Martin Luther who championed salvation by faith alone. When we see a teaching that can only be traced back to the 1500’s we can conclude that it is not apostolic, if it were it could be traced all the way back to the apostles.



I mentioned the DOCTRINE of Grace....

Eph 2:8-9 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.


This is a verse of Scripture not the Doctrines of Grace. This is the verse championed by those who hold Luther’s position. The problem is that most have it out of context. When this passage is read in the context of chapter two we see what Paul was referring to.

Ephesians 2:7-18(KJV)
7That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

In context we see that Paul is making a reference to the Mosaic Law. He is not saying a Christian can do nothing for salvation. He is saying that it is not by keeping the Law that one was saved, it was through faith. He goes on to tell them that Christ has broken down the middle was of partition. This is a metaphor for the wall of separation in the temple, the point beyond which the Gentiles could not pass. Paul says that this wall of separation has been broken down by Christ putting the Jew and Gentile on level ground. He goes on to say that Christ has abolished the the “Law of commandments” contained in ordinances. That is the Mosaic Law.
So, in context Paul’s statement is about the Mosaic Law, it is not saying that the Christian does nothing. That is the modern interpretation that was put on the passage by the Reformers.


Sigh.... I feel we are going in circles.... A christian is one who loves the Lord.... Right? I do disagree with your opinion of how one abides in Christ....

According to Jesus a Christian is one who keeps his commands. Anyone can say they love Jesus. Anyone can get all emotion and caught up in the moment. But, Jesus said, he who does not keep my commands does not love me. They are Jesus’ words not mine and not my interpretation, Jesus said it.


My tomato plants have plently of branches.... Each one should have at least one group of two or three tomatoes on it.... IF the branch is not connected to the stalk (vine) it does not get the nutrients it needs to produce tomatoes.... I just had to completely remove a branch from one plant because it broke.... But not all the way.... It was "hanging by a thread".... And it didn't have any fruit to show.... So I removed it.... There are branches that are fully attached but don't produce tomatoes.... I take them off too so that the trunk (vine.... If you will) can concentrate it's energy on the branches that are producing tomatoes.... Still those branches had the opportunity to poduce fruit as they were "abiding" in the "vine".... They just weren't productive....

And what did you do with them? Did you remove them branches and put them away to keep them safe for all eternity? Or, did you discard them to be destroyed?
Why did you cut them off, didn’t they love the vine? Didn’t they want to be there and remain there? Why did you cut them off? Was it because they were useless, they used up resources and produced nothing? Isn’t that what Jesus said?


Um.... Two things.... No I am not saying Jesus' words are unbiblical.... I am saying that works based salvation is not biblical....

Well, Jesus said, that everyone would be judged according to their works, those who did good would receive eternal life and those who did evil, damnation. Doesn’t that mean works play a role in salvation? If so, it would seem to me that your statement about is contradictory.





We are saved by Grace from sin.... Not because we chanted 300 Our Fathers and counted 1,598,000 beads and lit 32 candles in honor of dead people.... Yacka yacka yacka.... Or just was a good person in general.... There are going to be tons of murderers in heaven and tons of charitable folks in the Lake of Fire.... Salvation is based on what Jesus did for us.... Not what we did for Him.... If we don't accept that free gift and put ourselves under grace.... Then we don't love Him.... The judgment against the condemned is because "they did not believe in the only begotten Son of God".... What we do is because we are grateful for the grace shown and simply want to please our Lord....

This is simply an opinion. Paul said no murderer will inherit the kingdom of God, how then will there be tons of murderers in heaven?

Galatians 5:19-21(KJV)
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
And John

Revelation 21:8(KJV)
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14-15(KJV)
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Notice who has right to the tree of life and may enter into the city. It is those who keep His commandments.

There’s no doubt that condemnation is on those who choose not to believe, however, just because one believes does not mean they are exempt from the condemnation, as James said the demons believe.
.


Sigh.... This is the very question I am trying to get answers to....

Look I don't believe keeping His sayings is the same as bearing fruit.... Bearing fruit is what happens when you keep His sayings....

In the context of the passage, both before and after the verses in question Jesus is speaking of keeping his commandments. I don’t see how you can draw a conclusion other than bearing fruit is keeping His commandments.


The words IN ME are throwing me off.... A christian by definition is Christlike and does keep His sayings.... With that logic they must then bear the fruit that is supposed to come of those who do keep His sayings....

But some don’t consider the cost as Jesus said. They may choose to follow Him initially only to realize later that the price is more than they want to pay. Paul said, as many as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ, these are “In Christ”. Jesus said they must remain there. In order to remain there they must bear fruit. If they don’t they will be cut off of the vine.


Would you turn loose of the "Protestant Reformers" junk? I don't need others to read the word and interpret it for me.... That is what I have the Holy Spirit for.... And I came to the conclusion that A: Salvation and Justification are two different things (A whole nother thread.... No derails please).... B: You cannot be saved because of anything you do.... Because if you did you would be able to boast.... Which is why it is a free gift of Grace...

I merely brought the question of one passage I was having trouble with.... Something I do not usually do.... Just to gather ideas....

I keep mentioning the Reformers in order to keep a point in the forefront. That being, that this idea that a Christian does nothing for salvation is their doctrine and not that of the Scriptures. I agree sanctification and justification are two different things. The point is that one cannot have salvation without justification.
Your point be goes back to the passage in Ephesians. I pointed out that the modern understanding doesn’t fit the context. When Paul speaks of not boasting, he does not mean if a Christian did anything he could boast about it. As I think you are aware, the Pharisees boasted about keeping the Mosaic Law. The had that holier than thou attitude. They claimed they were better than the average Joe because they kept the Law and others didn’t. If salvation came through keeping the Law the Pharisees would have plenty to boast about, however, Paul says it is through faith and not the Law, therefore no one can boast.


If you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.... If you have by faith accepted the free gift of salvation.... You have done good and will receive everlasting life.... Those who chose not to.... Chose to remain under the condemnation Adam brought on all mankind when he sinned....

This is just opinion. Jesus didn’t say that. He said those who have done good will be raised to eternal life. It seems you are defining what Jesus meant by “done good” Shouldn’t Jesus be the one defining what He meant?


The parable of the sheep and the goats IMHO is a parable about the people living during the tribulation.... Those who get saved after the Rapture.... Which is not the same as the verses quoted here.... The verses quoted here refer to the Great White Throne judgment.... Which happens 1,007 years after the Rapture.... Which is not the topic of this discussion....

Regardless of when this is, are all people saved the same way? Isn’t salvation by grace through faith. Jesus said those who took care of His representatives were the righteous and those who did not were the unrighteous. The outcome was eternal life or damnation and it was based on what they did.


Again.... Considering the only thing that can be done to obtain salvation.... It is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone for salvation that gains eternal life.... The physical works we do and the way we behave is a result of salvation by Grace.... Not a cause....


Not according to James, he said faith without works is dead, he asks rhetorically can that faith save him? The answer is no. He also said speaking of Abraham, you see how works worked with his faith and by works faith was made complete. Looking at his words it becomes clear that the only faith that can save is faith that has works. According to what James said, it is works that give life to faith. Therefore they cannot be the product of faith.



It is my belief that the folks found in this passage are here because they did not believe in the Son of God.... Those who decided to put their faith in the law and dutifully following it to the letter will be judged by the works they did.... Were they following the law they so staunchly held to? I believe they will fall woefully short....

Again, the point is that they were judged on their works. If all of these were people who did not believe, why would anyone look for their names in the book of life?


Justification is what happens AFTER salvation.... Salvation is a free gift PERIOD.... If you wish to be approved of God then you seek justification.... There are those who reach heaven only by the skin of their teeth....

Actually, justification is a prerequisite for salvation. That is ultimate salvation. One does not need to be justified to initially come to Christ; however, to be saved in the end one must be justified.


I didn't want to debate faith vs. works! I merely wished to discuss what Jesus meant by what He said about those branches IN HIM which are unfruitful.... They are IN HIM.... Which means they are saved.... Obviously they chose to believe and have faith in Him.... So what is the fruit they are not producing that is causing them to be removed?

The works issue comes into play because it is the fruit you are inquiring of. Jesus told them to keep His commands. The fruit is the things He taught them, mainly in Mathew chapters 5-7, the Sermon on the Mount. By definition a Christian is a disciple of Christ, that is a student or a follower of Christ. Jesus said,

Luke 14:25-35(KJV)
25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
34Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If a man does not forsake all he cannot be Jesus’ disciple. That may sound radical to many western Christians but they are the words of Jesus Himself.
Notice each of the things He said are all actions.

Notice He says which of you intending to build a tower does not sit down and consider the cost, unless once he has started he is unable to finish. Now think back to John15, every branch that does not remain in Christ. In this passage from Luke we see Jesus speaking of some who may start to build and not be able to finish, they may get “IN CHRIST” and not remain.

I think the only reason you are having difficulty with this passage is because of some of the other doctrines you hold. There is friction between this passage and some of what you believe. Let me suggest you question the “Faith Alone” doctrine, especially since it can only be traced to the 1500’s.

Butch5
Aug 30th 2011, 10:32 PM
Jesus mentions that the Father promised him that he would not lose any of the twelve except one.

Where would I find that?

Butch5
Aug 30th 2011, 10:37 PM
Simple question. Is our desire to conform to Christ, or edit His Word to conform to our religion?

I think the answer there is obvious, however, I don't see where you are going with this.

BroRog
Aug 30th 2011, 11:39 PM
Where would I find that?John's gospel .

Butch5
Aug 31st 2011, 01:40 AM
John's gospel .

Where in John's Gospel?

BroRog
Aug 31st 2011, 04:36 AM
Where in John's Gospel?Really Butch? You don't know?

mailmandan
Aug 31st 2011, 11:59 AM
Then balance the stony soil with the thorny soil. This part of the parable helps out then. A person in the thorny soil only endures for a time.

Mark 4: 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.

Whether this "time" they endured was for only a moment or for 1 year, 5-10 years or longer. While they were in Christ, they endured and as Jesus spells it out for us to understand what caused these people to fall away from Him and abide in Him no longer. In this case it was tribulation/persecution.

If the person in this example was NEVER in Christ, then they'd NEVER have endured at all only to later, stop enduring. For a person to be described as "so endured for a time", means that they were once enduring.

So this scripture is clear also, they were IN Christ for a time just like those in the stony soil were IN Christ for only some time as well. Two examples of those IN Christ described as enduing and being fruitful... only to stop enduring and stop producing fruit AND, Jesus also spells out the reasons for their falling away from Him.

Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have temporarily believed, yet he is never said to have been "saved." Compare with Luke 8:12, "believe and be saved." John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); and John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of mob tactics and attempted murder of the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59).

How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually saved? First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, who only superficially believe, do not experience real salvation.

The terms descriptive of him indicate his lack of salvation. He is "shallow," and "rootless," and without perseverence. His "believing" is, therefore, "shallow." His "believing" is not "rooted," either in himself, or in truth, or in Christ. His "shallowness" is exhibited in the words describing him and his faith, such as "for a while believe," and "for a while endure." He is temporary, quick to start, and quick to tire. None of these shallow ground hearers produced "fruit," for they soon die before growing to sufficient maturity, as a plant, to produce fruit. The truth never took root in this persons soul and transformed their life. There is only a temporary surface change. To say that this person had to be in Christ or else they never would have endured at all is an assumption. A faith that temporarily endures that has no root is not saving faith.

This shows that the shallow ground hearer was not saved and why he "fell away." We see in Luke 8:18 where Christ spoke of seeming believers, and how they lose only what they "seem to have." Thus, they fall away not from actual salvation, but from seeming salvation, and from their prior confession. John mentions seeming believers in 1 John 2:19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. Notice that John said, if they had been of us, they WOULD HAVE continued with us, not might have.

Nothing is mentioned in this Parable about those in the stony soil or among the thorns being IN Christ, receiving the Holy Spirit, producing fruit, or enduring to the end. Jesus spells out the reasons why their faith was not genuine saving faith, which is why they did not produce fruit or endure to the end. Scripture tells us that those who truly believe the gospel are sealed IN Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13,14) How long are believers sealed IN Him? Unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30) This is not temporary and eternal life is not temporary life. Either we are saved, sealed IN Him with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption or else we were never saved to begin with. Salvation is not probation.

Slug1
Aug 31st 2011, 12:46 PM
A person who is not "in Christ" or in other words, Saved... can never be enduring or fruitful even for a second. Those scriptures are about people who endure for a time or produce fruit but then stop. No one endures or produces fruit unless they are first in Christ and " will be" saved if they continue to endure to the end of the race.

mailmandan
Sep 2nd 2011, 11:32 AM
A person who is not "in Christ" or in other words, Saved... can never be enduring or fruitful even for a second. Those scriptures are about people who endure for a time or produce fruit but then stop. No one endures or produces fruit unless they are first in Christ and " will be" saved if they continue to endure to the end of the race.

I'm still puzzled that you insist on teaching that the seed which fell on the stony ground and among the thorns actually produced fruit. Becomes fruitful is the opposite of becomes unfruitful and produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing, no fruit just does not equate to produced fruit, even for a second. A shallow faith that has not root can temporarily endure as a shallow faith that has no root, but this does not equate to saving faith that temporarily endures. Jesus does not temporarily save us and eternal life is not temporary life. Those who are saved and are in Christ will endure. 2 Corinthians 1:21,22 - Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 1 Peter 1:5 - we are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Jude 24 - Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. Phillippians 1:6- being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. 1 Corinthians 1:8 - who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's not all about us.

What exactly do you mean by "endure to the end of the race?" Do you believe that we have been (past tense) saved through faith? (Ephesians 2:8) or do you refer to this as only being "initially" saved and then we are thrown into a race, placed on probation and will only truly be saved after we finish a race? That is dangerously close to salvation by works. Present salvation cannot be based upon acts that come after salvation. Events after salvation can only prove or demonstrate the reality of what was assumed. Those who endure to the end demonstrate that they have been saved (their faith is rooted in Christ). Those who do not endure to the end demonstrate that they have not been saved (their faith is not rooted in Christ). Again, John mentions seeming believers in 1 John 2:19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. Notice that John said, if they had been of us, they WOULD HAVE continued with us, not some might have continued with us and will be saved and some might not continue with us and will lose their salvation. Romans 8:30 says, whom He justified, these He also glorified. God did not say that "some" He justifed will not be glorified. Believers are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance, (Ephesians 1:13,14) unto the day of redemption, (Ephesians 4:30) not temporarily.

Butch5
Sep 2nd 2011, 12:00 PM
Really Butch? You don't know?

I don't know what promise you are referring to.

Slug1
Sep 2nd 2011, 04:10 PM
I'm still puzzled that you insist on teaching that the seed which fell on the stony ground and among the thorns actually produced fruit. Becomes fruitful is the opposite of becomes unfruitful and produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing, no fruit just does not equate to produced fruit, even for a second. A shallow faith that has not root can temporarily endure as a shallow faith that has no root, but this does not equate to saving faith that temporarily endures. Jesus does not temporarily save us and eternal life is not temporary life. Those who are saved and are in Christ will endure. 2 Corinthians 1:21,22 - Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 1 Peter 1:5 - we are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Jude 24 - Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. Phillippians 1:6- being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. 1 Corinthians 1:8 - who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's not all about us.What exactly do you mean by "endure to the end of the race?" Do you believe that we have been (past tense) saved through faith? (Ephesians 2:8) or do you refer to this as only being "initially" saved and then we are thrown into a race, placed on probation and will only truly be saved after we finish a race? That is dangerously close to salvation by works. Present salvation cannot be based upon acts that come after salvation. Events after salvation can only prove or demonstrate the reality of what was assumed. Those who endure to the end demonstrate that they have been saved (their faith is rooted in Christ). Those who do not endure to the end demonstrate that they have not been saved (their faith is not rooted in Christ). Again, John mentions seeming believers in 1 John 2:19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. Notice that John said, if they had been of us, they WOULD HAVE continued with us, not some might have continued with us and will be saved and some might not continue with us and will lose their salvation. Romans 8:30 says, whom He justified, these He also glorified. God did not say that "some" He justifed will not be glorified. Believers are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance, (Ephesians 1:13,14) unto the day of redemption, (Ephesians 4:30) not temporarily.A person who is IN Christ is the ONLY type that can "become" unfruitful. That scripture is not about anyone who has or even IS gonna produce fruit, its about a person who once was producing fruit. Read that scripture... only one who once was fruitful is the only type of person who can "become" unfruitful. The only type of person who can be fruitful is one who is in Christ. That scripture is about those once in Christ, produced fruit and due to the reasons that Jesus is explaining to the entire Body of Christ... they stopped and now are unfruitful. Then we apply John 15 to help us understand what happens to those who becomes unfruitful.

mailmandan
Sep 4th 2011, 02:28 PM
A person who is IN Christ is the ONLY type that can "become" unfruitful. That scripture is not about anyone who has or even IS gonna produce fruit, its about a person who once was producing fruit. Read that scripture... only one who once was fruitful is the only type of person who can "become" unfruitful. The only type of person who can be fruitful is one who is in Christ. That scripture is about those once in Christ, produced fruit and due to the reasons that Jesus is explaining to the entire Body of Christ... they stopped and now are unfruitful. Then we apply John 15 to help us understand what happens to those who becomes unfruitful.

Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English) is not the same thing as saying, "gives fruit but then later stops producing fruit." The potential to eventually produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked, not because it was previously fruitful. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something. I can't find one translation of the Bible which states that the seed which fell on the thorny ground actually produced fruit but then later stopped producing fruit. Where does Jesus say they "stopped" producing fruit?

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that produce no fruit and branches that produce fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that produced fruit but then stopped producing fruit or later became unfruitful. When Jesus spoke these words, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified (John 7:38,39) had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? "the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13) So "in Me" is part of the metaphor of the Vine, (in the Vine). In Ephesians 1:13, we read, In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. Was this a present reality for those prior to Christ being glorified when Jesus spoke these words? So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the Vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, (like Judas) and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit - like the remaining 11 disciples).

poorinspirit
Sep 4th 2011, 03:15 PM
I don't know what promise you are referring to.

I believe BroRog was referring to this reference, Butch5.

John 17:11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

So from now on, any that has been given to Him, He will not lose:

John 6: 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The problem is that Jesus commanded His disciples to make disciples of other believers to continue in His words as many are called, but few are chosen: meaning, not every believer will be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes to collect the bride.

Those found not abiding in Him run the risk of being pruned from the vine to be burned: 1 Corinthians 3:10-23 spoke of how we build on that foundation: and Hebrews 12:1-29 speaks of how God the Father chastens every child He receives.

Judgment will fall on the House of God first: 1 Peter 4:17 and it will happen at the pre tribulational rapture event. Since it was prophesied that there will be a falling away from the faith: signalling the times of the Gentiles coming to an end for which God's House will be judged to restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake as He is the Good Shepherd in that He will lose nothing and so He will finish His work even in those left behind that will go through the great tribulation as the foolish virgins will have oil for their lamps and be shining as the prodigal son will be returning albeit both having missed out on the first inheritance of the Marriage Supper.

That judgment of fire is coming on the earth that will start off and set the parameters for the great tribulation: as many saints will be dying as their works will follow them: those works that deny Him and being burned up.

Thus the call to every believer that has His seal and that name the name of Christ to depart from iniquity so they can be that vessel unto honour in God's House: 2 Timothy 2:10-26

So there will be a pruning: a cutting off from the branch: but it is a chastening from the Lord so that they may be partakers of His holiness. When a believer stops abiding in Him by not heeding His words and doing them: thus departing from faith to resort to their own power in living the christian life by the deeds of the law or chasing after other "gods" like receiving the Holly Spirit again and after a sign or sowing to the flesh, living the wild life: then they are building on sand to suffer their houses to be broken up.

And yet He will not lose none save the son of perdition: so that means that those "left behind" at the pre tribulational rapture event will become vessels unto dishonour in His House as they will testify to the saving power of God in salvation for all those that come to and believe in Jesus Christ.