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mikebr
Sep 1st 2011, 01:32 PM
I love this song but is it Biblical? I'll preface that I believe that it is.


Give me rules, I will break them
Show me lines, I will cross them
I need more than a truth to believe
I need a truth that lives, moves, and breathes
To sweep me off my feet

Its gotta be
More like falling in love
Than something to believe in
More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
Its like I'm falling, Ohhhh
Its like I'm falling in love

Give me words, I'll misuse them
Obligations, I'll missplace them
Cuz all religion ever made of me
Was just a sinner with a stone tied to my feet
It never set me free

Its gotta be
More like falling in love
Than something to believe in
More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
Its like I'm falling
Its like I'm falling in love

Love, Love
Deeper and deeper
It was love that made me a believer
In more than a name, a faith, a creed
Falling in love with Jesus brought the change in me

keck553
Sep 1st 2011, 03:07 PM
I love this song but is it Biblical? I'll preface that I believe that it is.

No. Biblical love is not based on fleeting emotions

jgilberAZ
Sep 1st 2011, 03:58 PM
Its gotta be
More like falling in love
Than something to believe in
More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance

Believe and repent.

Jesus is Lord.


This song is not biblical.

keck553
Sep 1st 2011, 05:20 PM
Believe and repent.

Jesus is Lord.


This song is not biblical.

Amen. Good catch

mikebr
Sep 1st 2011, 06:12 PM
We are the Bride of Christ. Why are you betrothed to
Christ? So He will guard the border of your prim and proper
little kingdom, keeping you safe inside?
Are you betrothed to Him for security?—Eternal
fire insurance? “What a great provider!” Did you marry for
security? Jesus may want to come and scatter the kingdom of
your primness and draw you into a wild, passionate romance
where you lose everything and gain Him.
He did not hang on a cross and bear the pain of Hell
so you would be regular in your devotions, go on one
missions project a year, and be a faithful tither. He suffered,
died, and bore Hell in order to win your heart . . . that you
would surrender your sovereignty to His sovereignty; that
you would surrender to ecstasy. But Satan has made you fear
the deepest longing of your soul so you would spurn the
Lord’s advances and turn Him into a roommate and a
border guard.
Amen. Good catch Peter Hiett

I disagree.:thumbsdn:

keck553
Sep 1st 2011, 06:30 PM
We are the Bride of Christ. Why are you betrothed to
Christ? So He will guard the border of your prim and proper
little kingdom, keeping you safe inside ?

Huh?



Are you betrothed to Him for security?—Eternal
fire insurance? “What a great provider!” Did you marry for
security?

Eternal fire insurance? Never heard of it. God choose me, not the other way around.



Jesus may want to come and scatter the kingdom of
your primness and draw you into a wild, passionate romance
where you lose everything and gain Him.

that's not 'romance.' That is 'sancrification.' yes, biblical love has an emotional element, however the base if Biblical love is not emotion. The Hebrew word for love is a verb, not a feeling.



He did not hang on a cross and bear the pain of Hell
so you would be regular in your devotions, go on one
missions project a year, and be a faithful tither. He suffered,
died, and bore Hell in order to win your heart . . . that you
would surrender your sovereignty to His sovereignty; that
you would surrender to ecstasy. But Satan has made you fear
the deepest longing of your soul so you would spurn the
Lord’s advances and turn Him into a roommate and a
border guard. Peter Hiett

This is not a Biblical concept.



I disagree.:thumbsdn:

That doesn't surprise me.

mikebr
Sep 1st 2011, 10:02 PM
That doesn't surprise me.

A love affair with Jesus has changed my life. We're no longer just roommates. Cuz all religion ever made of me.
Was just a sinner with a stone tied to my feet. It never set me free. He has. Does that surprise you?

keck553
Sep 1st 2011, 10:43 PM
A love affair with Jesus has changed my life. We're no longer just roommates. Cuz all religion ever made of me.
Was just a sinner with a stone tied to my feet. It never set me free. He has. Does that surprise you?

What exactly are you 'free' to do now that you weren't 'free' to do before?

mikebr
Sep 1st 2011, 10:55 PM
What exactly are you 'free' to do now that you weren't 'free' to do before?

Love Him and other people. You may not understand but all I ever knew was an "us and them" mentality. I was a pharisee to the bone. I have been set free from law keeping, self loathing, trying to make God love me bull hockey! Its called Grace. There is nothing I can do to make Him love me more and there is nothing I can do to make Him love me less. Free to worship, praise, and be me in His presence or I guess I should say His presence in me. Believe me I am free. Oh yeah I'm free to mess up, SIN, without fear of Him making Him so mad He turns His back on me.

keck553
Sep 1st 2011, 11:01 PM
Love Him and other people.
Really sorry to drag you through this excercise, but what is your definition of love?



You may not understand but all I ever knew was an "us and them" mentality. I was a pharisee to the bone. I have been set free from law keeping, self loathing, trying to make God love me bull hockey! Its called Grace. There is nothing I can do to make Him love me more and there is nothing I can do to make Him love me more. Free to worship, praise, and be me in His presence or I guess I should say His presence in me. Believe me I am free1

You kept the law? Really? You mean you didn't lie, steal, covet your neighbors possesions (or wife), you loved your neighbor as yourself, didn't dishonor your parents; those things bound you up? Now you're free to.....what?

Look, I understand your passion. That is commendable, really. If you're a female, then I understand the romantic implications, and yes, it is a personal relationship. Jesus is a perfect husband, after all. But remember, He is GOD and if we must qunatify Him then He is the sum of all of His many other characteristics. But all I was doing was responding to a question about whether some lyrics are Scriptually sound.

mikebr
Sep 1st 2011, 11:10 PM
Really sorry to drag you through this excercise, but what is your definition of love?



You kept the law? Really? You mean you didn't lie, steal, covet your neighbors possesions (or wife), you loved your neighbor as yourself, didn't dishonor your parents; those things bound you up? Now you're free to.....what?

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

Well I guess I wasn't a real pharisee, let me put it this way.................Set free from trying to keep the law. Big difference sorry, I was more like these guys................


Acts 15:10-11 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"


Matt 15:14 "They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

Matt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

keck553
Sep 1st 2011, 11:38 PM
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

Well I guess I wasn't a real pharisee, let me put it this way.................Set free from trying to keep the law. Big difference sorry, I was more like these guys................


Acts 15:10-11 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"


Matt 15:14 "They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

Matt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

Did you subject yourself to someone who did this to you?

mikebr
Sep 1st 2011, 11:54 PM
Did you subject yourself to someone who did this to you?

Southern Christianity 101. Didn't you know that? "Turn or Burn," "hair on your collar sin in your heart" I believe the Lord used it all to get me to where I am now.

I have entered in and now I want all to enter in.

keck553
Sep 1st 2011, 11:56 PM
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.



Love is an interesting word in Hebrew. It is "ahav" Notice if you take the middle hebrew character out, you end up with "av" (father). When you add the middle letter, which is a 'hay' you are adding a letter that pictographically (we're in hebrew remember) points to "the heart of the matter." That reveals to me that love is the focus of the Father, IOW the heart of the Father is love.

If you don't mind, I'd like to share some Biblical verses about love, and if you do this, please pray first that God makes His Word come alive in your heart (it sounds silly, but it's not) -

Read Genesis 27:1-5 and take a note on what Isaac loved in verse 4.

the first usage of "ahav" in the context of loving God is found in Exodus 20:5-6. What does God link to loving him? Now read Deuteronomy 11:1 and note the things that are linked with the command to love God.

Proverbs 3:12 and Hebrews 12:6 note the connection to love and reproof.

Let's find out what God loves -

Psalm 11:7
Psalm 33:5
Psalm 37:28
Psalm 87:3

The Greek translation of "ahav" is "agapao." Agapao is used in John 3:16. With that in mind, read john 3:14-17 and relate it to what you read in Genesis 22:2

There are more Scriptures that us derivatives of the Greek word "agapao" - note thier relationship to obedience or to commands -

Luke 7:41-43
John 10:17
John 14:21
John 15:12
1 John 4:21

God even tells us what to love -

Deuteronomy 6:5
Psalm 119:47
Psalm 119:97
Psalm 119:159
Matthew 5:44
Matthew 22:37-39
John 13:34
John 14:23-24
John 15:9-11
Ephesians 5:25
1 John 4:7-8

In 1 John 2:15 we are told what NOT to love

I can finish this tommorrow if you are interested, but consider that God above all knows exactly what love is, how to love, where to love, when to love, who to love....He knows it all. Wouldn't it be profitiable to learn about love from God directly from His Word?

keck553
Sep 1st 2011, 11:57 PM
Southern Christianity 101. Didn't you know that? "Turn or Burn," "hair on your collar sin in your heart" I believe the Lord used it all to get me to where I am now.

I have entered in and now I want all to enter in.

I understand. Beleive me, if God wants someone to go a certain direction, it WILL happen. It's just a matter of how much one stiffens their neck to resist.

mikebr
Sep 2nd 2011, 12:02 AM
Love is an interesting word in Hebrew. It is "ahav" Notice if you take the middle hebrew character out, you end up with "av" (father). When you add the middle letter, which is a 'hay' you are adding a letter that pictographically (we're in hebrew remember) points to "the heart of the matter." That reveals to me that love is the focus of the Father, IOW the heart of the Father is love.

If you don't mind, I'd like to share some Biblical verses about love, and if you do this, please pray first that God makes His Word come alive in your heart (it sounds silly, but it's not) -

Read Genesis 27:1-5 and take a note on what Isaac loved in verse 4.

the first usage of "ahav" in the context of loving God is found in Exodus 20:5-6. What does God link to loving him? Now read Deuteronomy 11:1 and note the things that are linked with the command to love God.

Proverbs 3:12 and Hebrews 12:6 note the connection to love and reproof.

Let's find out what God loves -

Psalm 11:7
Psalm 33:5
Psalm 37:28
Psalm 87:3

The Greek translation of "ahav" is "agapao." Agapao is used in John 3:16. With that in mind, read john 3:14-17 and relate it to what you read in Genesis 22:2

There are more Scriptures that us derivatives of the Greek word "agapao" - note thier relationship to obedience or to commands -

Luke 7:41-43
John 10:17
John 14:21
John 15:12
1 John 4:21

God even tells us what to love -

Deuteronomy 6:5
Psalm 119:47
Psalm 119:97
Psalm 119:159
Matthew 5:44
Matthew 22:37-39
John 13:34
John 14:23-24
John 15:9-11
Ephesians 5:25
1 John 4:7-8

In 1 John 2:15 we are told what NOT to love

I can finish this tommorrow if you are interested, but consider that God above all knows exactly what love is, how to love, where to love, when to love, who to love....He knows it all. Wouldn't it be profitiable to learn about love from God directly from His Word?
Got some reading to do. thanks and by all means carry on.

mikebr
Sep 2nd 2011, 01:49 AM
This really stood out to me,

John 15:12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

While we were yet sinners He died for us. I can love because He first loved me. The commandment to love can only be accomplished because He is in me. His love through me. We can only love to the degree that we know that we are loved.

mikebr
Sep 2nd 2011, 02:19 AM
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall exult in my
God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a
bridegroom decks himself with a garland, and as a bride
adorns herself with her jewels. . . . You shall be a crown of
beauty in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the
hand of your God. You shall no more be termed Forsaken,
and your land shall no more be termed Desolate; but you
shall be called My delight is in her, and your land Married;
for the LORD delights in you, and your land shall be
married. For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your
sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the
bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.
-Isaiah 61:11, 62:3-5

He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates
his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does
the church, because we are members of his body. “For this
reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined
to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This
mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to
Christ and the church; however, let each one of you love his
wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her
husband.
-Ephesians 5:28b-33


Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great
multitude, like the sound of many waters and like the sound
of mighty thunderpeals, crying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord
our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and
give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to
99
be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure” –for the fine
linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
-Revelation 19:6-8

keck553
Sep 2nd 2011, 03:27 AM
This really stood out to me,

John 15:12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

While we were yet sinners He died for us. I can love because He first loved me. The commandment to love can only be accomplished because He is in me. His love through me. We can only love to the degree that we know that we are loved.

Amen Amen. He loved us first. And while we were yet enemies of God (well at least I was), He stands all day with His arms outstretched (Isaiah). Who can find a better home, a more noble King, a more loving Father?

keck553
Sep 2nd 2011, 06:56 PM
Got some reading to do. thanks and by all means carry on.

1 John 4:16 tells us God is love. But we need to be careful how we respond to that. The fact is that God is holy and expects His people to obey Him. Note the "Law of Love" is based on Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

So then how does God teach us to love? Interestingly ther eis actually a commandment in Scripture for all of God's people to teach. But what and how does God show us to teach? In Bible, there are 5 different terms used in the context of 'teaching.'

So now to focus in on your original issue, that of man-made religion you claim was imposed on you, and the hellfire sermons you disdain (I do not allow myself to be preach by the way).
The command for all of God's people to teach is found in Deuteronomy chapter 6. Much of this chapter was recited twice daily in Jesus and all His Jewish contemrporaies - it is called the "shema" and still recited today by religious Jews and some Chrisitans. Jesus recalls it in Matthew 22 when He recalls the Shema (you shall love God...... is embedded in the Shema)

Contained in this is the command "You shall teach these words diligently to your children..." the Hebrew word used in this portion for 'to teach' is "shanan." It means to sharpen or to use a whet stone. We all know a dull knife will not cut. Children need to be sharpened (shanan) like arrows or swords. So then, this is the first concept of teaching - to sharpen.

example - Deuteronomy 32:41
And now we know why God refers to Children in Psalm 127:5 as "arrows."

Another word we find for teaching is "yarah." this is the root verb for "Torah" (mostly translated as "law" in our Bibles). Yarah means to shoot or throw. It means to teach by pointing the way.

Exodus 4:10-15 uses "yarah." It is interesting to note who is going to do the teaching and what is being taught. Note how the use of "yarah" in this context relates to 'thrown' or 'shot.'

more examples - Proberbs 4:11

Then we find the hebrew word "lamed." In ancient pictograph this word would show a shepherd's staff prodding in a flow through a door. It means to teach by showing the way. You'll find this in Deuteronomy 4:1-9. You'll want to not what is being taught and why.

Psalm 51:10-13 reveals what motivated King David to teach.

"Alaf" is another term we find in our Bibles for teaching. It means to be yoked together (like a pair of oxen). In ancient times (and even now) a young ox is yoked with an experienced ox in order to show by example. That is what this term means. You'll find context for it in Job 33:33, 35:11. Note in Proverbs 22:25 the negative effect of being unequally yoked.

Finally, we come to the word "yasar." One that most of us try to avoid. The word-picture shows a hand encircling a head, and means "to turn the head." English translattions usually express this term as 'chastise, punish or correct." This method is teaching by discipling. Some examples are:

Deuteronomy 8:5
Proverbs 19:18

Yasar (chastise) is used often in the Bible. But we need a true view of this method God uses to teach His people if we are going to see His love through it. We should not reel in opposition when we come across this term. God's chastening hand is a lovinig and graceful one, that we need to accept as a gift if we are going to reap the blessings from it. By the way, now you know where "stiff-neck" comes from.

Deuteronomy notes two possibel responses from God's 'yasar.'

We'll also find some Greek terms in the NT that will help us. Most often used is "didasko." It is used in Matthew 5:19. Interestingly, in Matthew 28:18-20 we see 'teach' in the "great commission." Here are the verbs used:

- go
- make (teach) disciples
- immerse
- teach

Two of the Greek words in this passage are words for 'teaching.' "make" in "make disciples" uses the Greek word "matheteuo" which means to teach or instruct someone to follow a set of precepts or instructions. didasko focuses on speaking as a teaching method.

So now we get to the center of your main issue, that of being oppressed with man-made religion and having to endure fire and brimstone preaching (I do not subject myself to preaching, by the way).

In Ezekiel 44:23, God reminds His people what the Levite priests were commissioned to teach them. As intercessors, tey wer called to teach a difference -

"And they shall teach (yarah / shoot) My people the difference between the holy and the unholy and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean."

The english falls a bit short of the meaning here. Many think of 'holy' as sinless, and 'unclean' as some Old Testament ritual that was done away with. But what we are really reading in this passabe are divisions of two different planes. First, the division between "holy" and "unholy" is the division between "set apart for God" and "not set apart for God" - that is those things that are man-initiated, man-centered and man-pleasing.

Also the priests were to teach the people to learn to divide the "clean" (that which is whole and brings unity) from "unclean" (that which is fragmented and causes fragmenting). By having the priests teach the peopel to separate these things, God was preparing a way for the people to discern God-centered from man-centered. The successful division allowed people to act in ways that were consistant with the character of God in their sanctification. When God said "be holy for I am holy, He was commanding them to act upon the knowledge that they were supposed to be taught the difference between what was God-centered from man-centered (IOW the world from the Spiritual).

For the people's benefit (remember God loves us), when they are taught to separated these things, they learned to separate out those things that hurt them in their relationship with God, that fragmented and hindered their walk. When God's people chose to interact with those things that bring wholeness to them spritually it was a benefit instead of that which would fragment them and cause their relationship with God to become less whole.

2 Corinthians 6:17-7:1 is a good characterization of this concept also.

Hunter121
Sep 3rd 2011, 02:39 PM
It's noted as Christian alternative rock, and the guy is Christian so...

keck553
Sep 4th 2011, 01:40 AM
It's noted as Christian alternative rock, and the guy is Christian so...

Oh yeah, that makes it Scriptual.....because someone says he's a Christian. Hey, I guess that's what they said when Jim Jones gave out the kool-aid, right? I guess I don't need my Bible now.....

Mandi
Sep 4th 2011, 01:50 AM
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall exult in my
God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a
bridegroom decks himself with a garland, and as a bride
adorns herself with her jewels. . . . You shall be a crown of
beauty in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the
hand of your God. You shall no more be termed Forsaken,
and your land shall no more be termed Desolate; but you
shall be called My delight is in her, and your land Married;
for the LORD delights in you, and your land shall be
married. For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your
sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the
bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.
-Isaiah 61:11, 62:3-5

He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates
his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does
the church, because we are members of his body. “For this
reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined
to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This
mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to
Christ and the church; however, let each one of you love his
wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her
husband.
-Ephesians 5:28b-33


Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great
multitude, like the sound of many waters and like the sound
of mighty thunderpeals, crying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord
our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and
give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to
99
be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure” –for the fine
linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
-Revelation 19:6-8

Thank you for posting these beautiful verses and also the song, "More Like Falling in Love." We need to have a relationship with Jesus that involves our heart, and our hearts contain emotion. That is how God made us. Why would we want to spend forever "married" to someone we don't love in one of the most basic, fundamental ways we understand love. Even children love their parents with an emotional attachment much more meaningful and relevant than a "duty" or "committment." I know every Christian will understand how all this works perfectly some day. I look forward to that! Thank you for sharing this song and your thoughts. I totally agree with you.

mikebr
Sep 4th 2011, 02:50 AM
Thank you for posting these beautiful verses and also the song, "More Like Falling in Love." We need to have a relationship with Jesus that involves our heart, and our hearts contain emotion. That is how God made us. Why would we want to spend forever "married" to someone we don't love in one of the most basic, fundamental ways we understand love. Even children love their parents with an emotional attachment much more meaningful and relevant than a "duty" or "committment." I know every Christian will understand how all this works perfectly some day. I look forward to that! Thank you for sharing this song and your thoughts. I totally agree with you.

I think it scares the stuffing out of some folks. where you're seeking His heart I believe most are seeking His approval. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rzOdXJu5UA

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rzOdXJu5UA)

Mandi
Sep 4th 2011, 03:06 AM
Thanks. That was awesome!

Hunter121
Sep 4th 2011, 03:25 AM
Oh yeah, that makes it Scriptual.....because someone says he's a Christian. Hey, I guess that's what they said when Jim Jones gave out the kool-aid, right? I guess I don't need my Bible now.....

Look him up, you'll see he is wearing a shirt with a cross on it :) he's is Christian alright.

And we don't need to worry until he starts giving out free kool aid to a mass amount of people.

txchvs
Sep 4th 2011, 06:24 AM
I don't know, the Song of Solomon is about being in love and theologians have found a wealth of doctrine being communicated. It's unfortunate that we only have only one word for love, the Greeks had three, 'agape', 'phileo' and of course, 'eros'. Reading the OP this passage came to mind:

6 Place me like a seal over your heart,
like a seal on your arm;
for love is as strong as death,
its jealousy unyielding as the grave.
It burns like blazing fire,
like a mighty flame.
7 Many waters cannot quench love;
rivers cannot sweep it away.
If one were to give
all the wealth of one’s house for love,
it would be utterly scorned. (Song of Solomon 8:6,7)

I suppose the answer would be, it depends on what you mean by 'falling in love'. I'll have to give it some more thought and get back to you on this one but I will say this, there might be some merit to the idea.

Grace and peace,
Mark

mikebr
Sep 4th 2011, 07:15 PM
I don't know, the Song of Solomon is about being in love and theologians have found a wealth of doctrine being communicated. It's unfortunate that we only have only one word for love, the Greeks had three, 'agape', 'phileo' and of course, 'eros'. Reading the OP this passage came to mind:

6 Place me like a seal over your heart,
like a seal on your arm;
for love is as strong as death,
its jealousy unyielding as the grave.
It burns like blazing fire,
like a mighty flame.
7 Many waters cannot quench love;
rivers cannot sweep it away.
If one were to give
all the wealth of one’s house for love,
it would be utterly scorned. (Song of Solomon 8:6,7)

I suppose the answer would be, it depends on what you mean by 'falling in love'. I'll have to give it some more thought and get back to you on this one but I will say this, there might be some merit to the idea.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Bravo! Thanks, I've been thinking about it. The problem is that we had rather have a law than a lover.

mikebr
Sep 4th 2011, 08:51 PM
Look him up, you'll see he is wearing a shirt with a cross on it :) he's is Christian alright.

And we don't need to worry until he starts giving out free kool aid to a mass amount of people.

Judge not.........................................?:hmm:

txchvs
Sep 4th 2011, 10:32 PM
Bravo! Thanks, I've been thinking about it. The problem is that we had rather have a law than a lover.

Love fulfills the law, we know that from the Gospel. Legalism is a dangerous pitfall for the Christian faith but so are greed, sloth and envy just to name a few. The danger is in excess and deficiency, they are the real hazards. When traveling a narrow road does it matter which ditch you end up in?

mikebr
Sep 4th 2011, 10:46 PM
Look him up, you'll see he is wearing a shirt with a cross on it :) he's is Christian alright.

And we don't need to worry until he starts giving out free kool aid to a mass amount of people.

You're really going to condemn a person because you don't like the lyrics to one song? Do you ever curse, lie, say things just to make you feel better. This man has ministered to many through his music. Check out Matthew 5:22 and look up the definition of RACA.

keck553
Sep 4th 2011, 11:45 PM
Look him up, you'll see he is wearing a shirt with a cross on it :) he's is Christian alright.

And we don't need to worry until he starts giving out free kool aid to a mass amount of people.

yep. It's what comes out of a person that counts. Good intentions are not by which the Bible teaches us discernment.

otherwise Jesus made a mistake beacuse all the Pharisees wore nice Tefillin and awesome Tsitzit, symbols of belonging to God.

mikebr
Sep 5th 2011, 12:28 AM
and some (____________________) are mean, judgmental, backbiters.
insert favorite denomination

Another Jason Gray song


After all the songs are sung
And our prayers for kingdom come
Did we bring honor to the words we sing?

Does our worship have hands
Does it have feet
Does it stand up in the face of injustice
Does our worship bow down
Does it run deep
Is it more than a song that fades with our voices
Does it fade with our voices?

Lord, its you we long to please
Make our lives a melody
That we proclaim when we live in Jesus name

(Do I hear the voices fading)????????????????????????

Hunter121
Sep 5th 2011, 03:28 AM
You're really going to condemn a person because you don't like the lyrics to one song? Do you ever curse, lie, say things just to make you feel better. This man has ministered to many through his music. Check out Matthew 5:22 and look up the definition of RACA.

Is this reply supposed to go to me? Where did you get that accusation, I like the song.

Hunter121
Sep 5th 2011, 03:29 AM
Judge not.........................................?:hmm:

It was merely a joke (that's what the smily is for)

mikebr
Sep 5th 2011, 11:56 AM
Is this reply supposed to go to me? Where did you get that accusation, I like the song.


It was merely a joke (that's what the smily is for)

Nah is was mainly this. Sometimes its hard to detect what a person is thinking in this type of media.


yep. It's what comes out of a person that counts. Good intentions are not by which the Bible teaches us discernment.

otherwise Jesus made a mistake beacuse all the Pharisees wore nice Tefillin and awesome Tsitzit, symbols of belonging to God.

keck553
Sep 5th 2011, 06:52 PM
Nah is was mainly this. Sometimes its hard to detect what a person is thinking in this type of media.

I said that. It's not about what I think. It;s about what God"s word says. What I think is just like wind

mikebr
Sep 5th 2011, 07:05 PM
I said that. It's not about what I think. It;s about what God"s word says. What I think is just like wind
Show us in God's word where its ok for you to judge a man you don't know simply because you think the words to his song are unbiblical.

again the word RACA comes to mind.

keck553
Sep 6th 2011, 04:23 PM
Show us in God's word where its ok for you to judge a man you don't know simply because you think the words to his song are unbiblical.

again the word RACA comes to mind.

Stop it. I didn't judge him, you asked if his lyrics were Scriptual and I said no. No where in the Bible does God tell us to 'fall in love" with Him and indict His judgements, ordinances and commands as evil religious dictates that we inherently abuse. Jesus said if you love Him you would obey Him. That is His condition, not mine.

And yes, Go does charge us to discern the holy from the unholy, the clean from the unclean.

mikebr
Sep 6th 2011, 07:48 PM
yep. It's what comes out of a person that counts. Good intentions are not by which the Bible teaches us discernment.

otherwise Jesus made a mistake beacuse all the Pharisees wore nice Tefillin and awesome Tsitzit, symbols of belonging to God.

Sorry I misunderstood this quote from you.

You were responding to this.


Look him up, you'll see he is wearing a shirt with a cross on it he's is Christian alright.

And we don't need to worry until he starts giving out free kool aid to a mass amount of people.

Maybe you can explain what you were both talking about. I apologize if I misread you.

keck553
Sep 6th 2011, 07:54 PM
Sorry I misunderstood this quote from you.

You were responding to this.



Maybe you can explain what you were both talking about. I apologize if I misread you.

Oh, I think we were just observing that outwardly adornments, proclamations, statements of faith, etc. does not by default make that person/institution holy.

tell me if someone prefered to wear the ten commandments around their neck instead of an execution stake (cross), would you assume they are less holy?

mikebr
Sep 6th 2011, 08:01 PM
Oh, I think we were just observing that outwardly adornments, proclamations, statements of faith, etc. does not by default make that person/institution holy.

tell me if someone prefered to wear the ten commandments around their neck instead of an execution stake (cross), would you assume they are less holy?

Not sure what your talking about. Like I said, I misunderstood. I wouldn't make any assumptions about their holiness. Their holiness comes from God Himself. I made the mistake of making a judgment about a guy with tattoos one time. No more had the judgmental thoughts entered my mind when I sensed that he was brother in Christ. I later saw the man sitting in the floor at the bible bookstore reading to his sons. The Lord made me go tell him how I had judged him. Then I realized we attend the same church and he seems to be the real deal. But even with all that its not my place to determine whether or not he is saved. My job is to do unto him as Christ has done unto me.

keck553
Sep 6th 2011, 08:14 PM
Not sure what your talking about. Like I said, I misunderstood. I wouldn't make any assumptions about their holiness. Their holiness comes from God Himself. I made the mistake of making a judgment about a guy with tattoos one time. No more had the judgmental thoughts entered my mind when I sensed that he was brother in Christ. I later saw the man sitting in the floor at the bible bookstore reading to his sons. The Lord made me go tell him how I had judged him. Then I realized we attend the same church and he seems to be the real deal. But even with all that its not my place to determine whether or not he is saved. My job is to do unto him as Christ has done unto me.

Well, my views on tattoos is not as essential as the fact that if God made me wear my sin on my skin in the form of tatoos, I would be covered with them from head to toe.

My concern about the song is that 'falling in love' is a sencondary emotion that hangs on a primary response. If I don't first love God as He shows us how to love Him in His Word, my secondary response could hang on a very sandy foundation, and when that foundation crumbles, so will the secondary emotion. I know this because I've been through it.

mikebr
Sep 6th 2011, 08:18 PM
Well, my views on tattoos is not as essential as the fact that if God made me wear my sin on my skin in the form of tatoos, I would be covered with them from head to toe.

My concern about the song is that 'falling in love' is a sencondary emotion that hangs on a primary response. If I don't first love God as He shows us how to love Him in His Word, my secondary response could hang on a very sandy foundation, and when that foundation crumbles, so will the secondary emotion. I know this because I've been through it.

I'll have to assume that we are in different places in our walk. What I am and have experiencing is no secondary emotion. It is life altering and the song ministers to where I am.

keck553
Sep 6th 2011, 08:29 PM
I'll have to assume that we are in different places in our walk. What I am and have experiencing is no secondary emotion. It is life altering and the song ministers to where I am.

We're all in different places in our walks. That's why we need a standard, a compass - God's Word. Once we walk outside of His Word, it is like having a compass sitting just east of a huge magnet.

Our lives should be altered by relationship with God - in conformity to Him - just keep in mind many religions, including Mormanism, Islaam, Hinduism, etc. claim life-altering experiences. If someone's life-altering experience was based on faith in a false god, and they came up to you all excited about their experience, what would you tell them? Would you hurt them with the truth, or would you allow them to be further led into darkness?

mikebr
Sep 6th 2011, 08:46 PM
We're all in different places in our walks. That's why we need a standard, a compass - God's Word. Once we walk outside of His Word, it is like having a compass sitting just east of a huge magnet.

Our lives should be altered by relationship with God - in conformity to Him - just keep in mind many religions, including Mormanism, Islaam, Hinduism, etc. claim life-altering experiences. If someone's life-altering experience was based on faith in a false god, and they came up to you all excited about their experience, what would you tell them? Would you hurt them with the truth, or would you allow them to be further led into darkness?

John 5:39-40

New International Version (NIV)


39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

What words in the song do you find most offensive? What do you think the Song of Solomon is about? In what ways is our relationship with Jesus supposed to me like a marriage? Would you describe a good marriage as one that didn't include emotional love?

Slug1
Sep 6th 2011, 08:49 PM
Would you hurt them with the truth, or would you allow them to be further led into darkness?Kech, in a way I think you just nailed the intent/message of this entire song in this specific statement of yours.

keck553
Sep 6th 2011, 09:01 PM
John 5:39-40

New International Version (NIV)


What words in the song do you find most offensive? What do you think the Song of Solomon is about? In what ways is our relationship with Jesus supposed to me like a marriage? Would you describe a good marriage as one that didn't include emotional love?

You know, Jesus said "if you love me, you will obey my commandments" The lyrics in this song contradict that essential truth. It's using a light-heavy argument (to me) that God's Words are 'religion' and that 'following our heart' is weightier than listening to God's Words and obeying Him. I'm sorry, but our hearts are just not that reliable, nor are they stable.

To me, it just sounds like another excuse for someone to follow their own ways and do 'what is right in their own mind.' Sorry. That's what the lyrics say to me.

Understand that music is extremely powerful on people's emotions, and I am no exception to that.

keck553
Sep 6th 2011, 09:07 PM
Kech, in a way I think you just nailed the intent/message of this entire song in this specific statement of yours.

The truth is in God's Word. Earlier in this thread, I made many references on what God loves, how God loves, and what God expects our response to be, and I know it's a foreign concept, but God is a God of action first. Emotions are secondary. Of couse I love God emotionally, yes, a Jewish wedding elicites emotions that prostrate me because it's a picture of my Messiah's wedding, and for sure I have an incredibly strong emotional attachement to God. It's just when He say's "no" to me, those emotions don't cause me to stumble, and I think a lot of that steadfastness comes from learning from God how to love instead of learning from romance songs how to love.

mikebr
Sep 6th 2011, 09:14 PM
You know, Jesus said "if you love me, you will obey my commandments" The lyrics in this song contradict that essential truth. It's using a light-heavy argument (to me) that God's Words are 'religion' and that 'following our heart' is weightier than listening to God's Words and obeying Him. I'm sorry, but our hearts are just not that reliable, nor are they stable.

To me, it just sounds like another excuse for someone to follow their own ways and do 'what is right in their own mind.' Sorry. That's what the lyrics say to me.

Understand that music is extremely powerful on people's emotions, and I am no exception to that.

found this quite by accident but I think it applies.


What if our thinking is so permeated by the world’s performance-based thought system that we are afraid of actual Reality, of real Love, of real Joy? In place of depending on the Vine, we think we are the Vine and even the Gardener, and that we have to keep ourselves, manage ourselves, and cause ourselves to bear fruit, asking God for a little help now and then. We think we are independent selves who must be good, so we build Law-fences and sin-boundaries to help keep ourselves course.

What if the plan of God was so much freer than that? What if his plan is to so bind us to himself in spirit, soul, and body that we no longer need to have Law-fences? What if his intention is to make us his total, complete bond-slaves so that we can be ultimately and finally free, not someday with Heavenly pie-in-the-sky, but here, now, productive in endless love, effortless joy, here and now? What if we were unequivocally free from having to worry about sin because we are so taken up with the love and joy and power of the Lord Jesus Christ living in us and through us?
Ron Block

mikebr
Sep 6th 2011, 09:16 PM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by keck553 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2738425#post2738425)

Would you hurt them with the truth, or would you allow them to be further led into darkness?


In what ways could this lead someone into darkness? What if it led them to explore God in a way that they never thought possible. I think that maybe we are both leaving out a huge part of the equation. God can speak through a donkey.

keck553
Sep 6th 2011, 10:18 PM
In what ways could this lead someone into darkness? What if it led them to explore God in a way that they never thought possible. I think that maybe we are both leaving out a huge part of the equation. God can speak through a donkey.

ah.....the donkey card.....whomever says "donkey" first wins. By default.

Many people are led to God in ungodly ways; I was - that's nothing new, but it's not the road I would suggest embarking on unless pain and anguish is something to look forward to.

But the question was "Is this Biblical?" The answer remains the same; it seems that you are simply moving the target to where the arrow struck.

mikebr
Sep 6th 2011, 10:59 PM
ah.....the donkey card.....whomever says "donkey" first wins. By default.

Many people are led to God in ungodly ways; I was - that's nothing new, but it's not the road I would suggest embarking on unless pain and anguish is something to look forward to.

But the question was "Is this Biblical?" The answer remains the same; it seems that you are simply moving the target to where the arrow struck.

You can call it what you will, but you have yet to prove that it is unbiblical. If you were led to God in ungodly ways it was the only way you could get there, regardless of what you may think. We take way to much credit sometime as in the quote above by Ron Block and now your calling the song Un-Godly, not just unbiblical? By the way, just because something is biblical doesn't mean its Christian.

Is this the ungodly part?

Love, Love
Deeper and deeper
It was love that made me a believer
In more than a name, a faith, a creed
Falling in love with Jesus brought the change in me

For the Love of God constrains me?



Did I really win? :pp

keck553
Sep 6th 2011, 11:46 PM
You can call it what you will, but you have yet to prove that it is unbiblical. If you were led to God in ungodly ways it was the only way you could get there, regardless of what you may think. We take way to much credit sometime as in the quote above by Ron Block and now your calling the song Un-Godly, not just unbiblical? By the way, just because something is biblical doesn't mean its Christian.

Is this the ungodly part?


For the Love of God constrains me?



Did I really win? :pp

Well..it is my prayer that you win and God favors you and blesses you greatly.

I'll break it down

Give me rules, I will break them
(rebellion - not holy)

Show me lines, I will cross them
(more rebellion - ungodly)

I need more than a truth to believe
Not supported anywhere in Scripture. "I need?" God isn't obligated to our commands

I need a truth that lives, moves, and breathes
I'll take this as poetic license to "make your Word live to us"

To sweep me off my feet
Greek axiom, not a Hebrew concept

Its gotta be
More like falling in love
Than something to believe in
An idea not found in scripture.

More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
An idea not found in scripture. God doesn't need our allegiance.


Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
Its like I'm falling, Ohhhh
Its like I'm falling in love
um.....Um I can't find this idea in my Bible

Give me words, I'll misuse them
rebellion
Obligations, I'll missplace them
rebellionCuz all religion ever made of me
Was just a sinner with a stone tied to my feet
It never set me free
no, this person made a sinner of himself. It's wrong to blame one's own iniquity on someone else. God says to repent, so....repent (turn from your ways to God's ways) and He will set you free, read His Word and His Word will teach you no religion can bind you unless you allow it to. And then be responsible for His work in you - to much is given...much is required. I understand that folks can yoke themselves to 'religion' as I did, but that was by choice. No one held a gun to my head. What set me free was not 'falling in love' it was God's Word and by the prompting of His Spirit. His love for me rescued me, but first I had to seek Him and His righteousness.(remember that verse?). Am I part of His bride? Yep. Do I love Him? Yep. But so much more than just an emotion.

mikebr
Sep 7th 2011, 12:00 AM
Well..it is my prayer that you win and God favors you and blesses you greatly.

I'll break it down

Give me rules, I will break them
(rebellion - not holy)

Show me lines, I will cross them
(more rebellion - ungodly)

I need more than a truth to believe
Not supported anywhere in Scripture. "I need?" God isn't obligated to our commands

I need a truth that lives, moves, and breathes
I'll take this as poetic license to "make your Word live to us"

To sweep me off my feet
Greek axiom, not a Hebrew concept

Its gotta be
More like falling in love
Than something to believe in
An idea not found in scripture.

More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
An idea not found in scripture. God doesn't need our allegiance.


Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
Its like I'm falling, Ohhhh
Its like I'm falling in love
um.....Um I can't find this idea in my Bible

Give me words, I'll misuse them
rebellion
Obligations, I'll missplace them
rebellionCuz all religion ever made of me
Was just a sinner with a stone tied to my feet
It never set me free
no, this person made a sinner of himself. It's wrong to blame one's own iniquity on someone else. God says to repent, so....repent (turn from your ways to God's ways) and He will set you free, read His Word and His Word will teach you no religion can bind you unless you allow it to. And then be responsible for His work in you - to much is given...much is required. I understand that folks can yoke themselves to 'religion' as I did, but that was by choice. No one held a gun to my head. What set me free was not 'falling in love' it was God's Word and by the prompting of His Spirit. His love for me rescued me, but first I had to seek Him (remember that verse?).

I think you misunderstand what he is saying. He is saying that religion has not made him a better person. It has not fulfilled its promises. He needs something more. He's not saying that God needs his allegiance. He's saying that he gave God his allegiance and it wasn't enough for God or himself.

Can a person know the love of God without scripture? We love because He first loved us.

keck553
Sep 7th 2011, 12:11 AM
I think you misunderstand what he is saying. He is saying that religion has not made him a better person. It has not fulfilled its promises. He needs something more. He's not saying that God needs his allegiance. He's saying that he gave God his allegiance and it wasn't enough for God or himself.

Can a person know the love of God without scripture? We love because He first loved us.

Well Jesus says the truth will set us free. I'm going with that, and saying I need more than the truth is contrary to His Words.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding him, but I've been a mucian all my life and have penned a few too (not easy), so if I missed it, perhaps it's just me and my cockeyed way of reading other's writings. But if it's God we are going to publish a writing about, well to me that's somethign to walk very cautiously into. But, that's just me and my reverence.

mikebr
Sep 7th 2011, 12:17 AM
Well Jesus says the truth will set us free. I'm going with that, and saying I need more than the truth is contrary to His Words.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding him, but I've been a mucian all my life and have penned a few too (not easy), so if I missed it, perhaps it's just me and my cockeyed way of reading other's writings. But if it's God we are going to publish a writing about, well to me that's somethign to walk very cautiously into. But, that's just me and my reverence.

I certainly respect that. Thanks for the discussion and the blessings above. Its why I asked in the first place.

I mainly just like to argue, er I mean discuss!:hug:;)

keck553
Sep 7th 2011, 04:28 PM
I certainly respect that. Thanks for the discussion and the blessings above. Its why I asked in the first place.

I mainly just like to argue, er I mean discuss!:hug:;)

Well, I have that same inclination (argue), however at some point I usually realize I am pivoting on treading on the work of Christ, which I am instructed not to do. It's just that love has been so perverted by the world, it's become more of a symbol of future broken promises than fulfilled promises. Sometimes God says 'no' to prayer, and it is not the same type of 'no' as the rejection we are surrounded with in the songs, media and movies that claim what love is and totally miss the mark.

On a positive note, if you are 'in love' with God, then I rejoice in the knowledge that you will pursue Him with all the strength you have. Never stop!

John 8:32
Sep 7th 2011, 04:32 PM
You know, Jesus said "if you love me, you will obey my commandments" The lyrics in this song contradict that essential truth. It's using a light-heavy argument (to me) that God's Words are 'religion' and that 'following our heart' is weightier than listening to God's Words and obeying Him. I'm sorry, but our hearts are just not that reliable, nor are they stable.

To me, it just sounds like another excuse for someone to follow their own ways and do 'what is right in their own mind.' Sorry. That's what the lyrics say to me.

Understand that music is extremely powerful on people's emotions, and I am no exception to that.

This is what I came away with the first time I heard it.

Slug1
Sep 7th 2011, 05:07 PM
Kech, I also don't think you understand the meaning of the song. Tell me, when Jesus broke all the rules of what the Pharisees enforced through their religious rules, regulations, lines, traditions... was Jesus demonstrating rebellion as you seem to say the song means or was He showing us a better way? A way that was of love and relationship as the song explains?

keck553
Sep 7th 2011, 05:09 PM
Kech, I also don't think you understand the meaning of the song. Tell me, when Jesus broke all the rules of what the Pharisees enforced through their religious rules, regulations, lines, traditions... was Jesus demonstrating rebellion as you seem to say the song means or was He showing us a better way? A way that was of love and relationship as the song explains?

Jesus didn't break 'all' their rules. Remember when Jesus taught His disciples to "do all they say (but not as they do)?" When it came to nulifyng God's Laws and work-arounds (such as having a round field so you don't have corners to leave for the poor, yes Jesus was quite firm on that - but no, I don't see Jesus as a 'rebel' at all. Sorry.

Solo Scrptura is unworkable.

If you want to lash out in rebellion to religion, you might want to start at communion which most congregations do every month, then move on to rebelling against passing a bag around for offerings (which is not Biblical) and I can cite at least a hundred other 'traditions' of Christian response to faith that we can rebel against, so pretty soon, we're all a congregation of one with no fellowship and without purpose. How's that going to work out?

Slug1
Sep 7th 2011, 05:19 PM
Jesus didn't break 'all' their rules. Remember when Jesus taught His disciples to "do all they say (but not as they do)?" When it came to nulifyng God's Laws and work-arounds (such as having a round field so you don't have corners to leave for the poor, yes Jesus was quite firm on that - but no, I don't see Jesus as a 'rebel' at all. Sorry. So when Jesus did what the song says concerning rules and lines... why is it wrong for us but not wrong for Him?Take modern day religion and you walk into a church that requires for you to genuflect before entering the pew... are you gonna do this because the religion tells you its a requirement for reverance and respect to God? Or are you not gonna do this because you want more in a relationship with God... not through a bunch of do this or that actions that means what the religion says the actions mean.Anyway... got class so I'll pop back on later.

John 8:32
Sep 7th 2011, 05:33 PM
So when Jesus did what the song says concerning rules and lines... why is it wrong for us but not wrong for Him?Take modern day religion and you walk into a church that requires for you to genuflect before entering the pew... are you gonna do this because the religion tells you its a requirement for reverance and respect to God? Or are you not gonna do this because you want more in a relationship with God... not through a bunch of do this or that actions that means what the religion says the actions mean.Anyway... got class so I'll pop back on later.

Paul said in many places that we should obey the civil government and by extension any other rule making body, as long as it is not in violation God's law. Our employer is one example, he can make rules and as long as those rules do not conflict with God's rules, we obey.

Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

If they conflict then...

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

keck553
Sep 7th 2011, 05:36 PM
So when Jesus did what the song says concerning rules and lines... why is it wrong for us but not wrong for Him?

um.....He's GOD. We're not. Can you wihout error discern the holy from the unholy, the clean from the unclean?



Take modern day religion and you walk into a church that requires for you to genuflect before entering the pew... are you gonna do this because the religion tells you its a requirement for reverance and respect to God? Or are you not gonna do this because you want more in a relationship with God... not through a bunch of do this or that actions that means what the religion says the actions mean.Anyway... got class so I'll pop back on later.

No, if I CHOOSE to go to that church I yield to their protocol, just the same as when I CHOOSE to go to a high end restaurant I DRESS appropriately. It's called "respect." If i don't agree with it, or if I don't like the food, I don't go there.

Eyelog
Sep 7th 2011, 05:38 PM
Keck, in my view you are right on in this analysis of the lyrics.

There is a strong antinomian movement afoot disquised as a new seriousness about loving God, as if the imagery associated with marriage and romantic relationships should be taken more literally than figuratively. This quest for a new 'authenticity' in our love of God, which condemns all human efforts to please the Lord, as self-justifying acts which deny Christ's work on the Cross, asks us all to be in awe about its proponents' daring to get real with God. In reality, this interpretive move is as idolatrous as pretending with the author of the Twilight saga that evil isn't really evil if we have romantic love. This romance with God stuff cries foul if we are trying to manipulate God by obeying Him, rather than just happening to please Him by accident as we pursue our great affections for Him. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of agape, and attempts to pull it down to the level of eros, really. It's internally inconistent with its own ideas of what we oughta do, it is inconsistent with Scripture, and it is inconsistent with how human beings really function. On its face it pretends to be a higher obedience, one properly motivated. Underneath, it is no obedience at all, because the Christian cannot be properly motivated to obey if they do not believe "He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him" and that they will be judged and rewarded for the deeds of the body and the heart with which they are done, after they are born again and regenerate. At best, this is a call to pay attention to the inward desire, to make sure we desire what we ought to, so we are not hypocrites by desiring the opposite of what we do. But by what method are we to get that change of heart?

Francis Chan describes what he thinks our inner emotions about God and obedience oughta be, but how we get there is far less clear. Just don't forget to be pashionate, okay?

When Jason Gray, fka Gay, says he doesn't want something to believe in, he is either saying salvation and obedience are not by faith, or he is saying, 'I'm so immature spiritually that I can't bring myself to obey just because someone told me Jesus is the way.' I tend to believe it is more the latter, though it tends to result in the former.

Eyelog

keck553
Sep 7th 2011, 05:40 PM
Very thoughtful and insightful post. Need some time to ponder it.

Slug1
Sep 7th 2011, 07:45 PM
um.....He's GOD. We're not. Can you wihout error discern the holy from the unholy, the clean from the unclean? It' not a matter of clean/unclean. Besides... let's use more examples from the Bible since you dropped the "He's God" excuse. What about the disciples? They healed on the Sabbath, didn't wash their hands, didn't fast when the religious authority gave them a hard time. Sure, if I want a relationship based on a loving relationship with God and I can't find that in any particular church/denom/religion, I too will go elsewhere but how many places do I go to and never find one without some rule that I'm not kosher with and break to maintain my relationship with God? The Church of God regulates NO drinking of alcohol, NONE... am I to never enjoy a glass of wine because their rules forbid any consumption of alcohol? The song is about a relationship with God through love, not rules.

keck553
Sep 7th 2011, 07:53 PM
It' not a matter of clean/unclean. Besides... let's use more examples from the Bible since you dropped the "He's God" excuse. What about the disciples? They healed on the Sabbath, didn't wash their hands, didn't fast when the religious authority gave them a hard time. Sure, if I want a relationship based on a loving relationship with God and I can't find that in any particular church/denom/religion, I too will go elsewhere but how many places do I go to and never find one without some rule that I'm not kosher with and break to maintain my relationship with God? The Church of God regulates NO drinking of alcohol, NONE... am I to never enjoy a glass of wine because their rules forbid any consumption of alcohol? The song is about a relationship with God through love, not rules.

Not many examples, are there? Not all Jews believed healing was a bad thing on Sabbath, in fact there are older Jewish writings that put a precedence on life over Sabbath. just a few loudmouths probably. Hand washing is a levite regulaton, some pharisees apparently took up that role upon themselves, and expected the wandering Rabbi's to do the same. Again, not an earth-shattering ordeal.

Say what you want, but I'll stand by what Jesus said. "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments."

mikebr
Sep 7th 2011, 08:14 PM
It' not a matter of clean/unclean. Besides... let's use more examples from the Bible since you dropped the "He's God" excuse. What about the disciples? They healed on the Sabbath, didn't wash their hands, didn't fast when the religious authority gave them a hard time. Sure, if I want a relationship based on a loving relationship with God and I can't find that in any particular church/denom/religion, I too will go elsewhere but how many places do I go to and never find one without some rule that I'm not kosher with and break to maintain my relationship with God? The Church of God regulates NO drinking of alcohol, NONE... am I to never enjoy a glass of wine because their rules forbid any consumption of alcohol? The song is about a relationship with God through love, not rules.

Exactly. Great Post!

Slug1
Sep 7th 2011, 08:16 PM
Not many examples, are there? Not all Jews believed healing was a bad thing on Sabbath, in fact there are older Jewish writings that put a precedence on life over Sabbath. just a few loudmouths probably. Hand washing is a levite regulaton, some pharisees apparently took up that role upon themselves, and expected the wandering Rabbi's to do the same. Again, not an earth-shattering ordeal.Say what you want, but I'll stand by what Jesus said. "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments."HOOAH! The song isn't about breaking commandments, its about breaking what the loudmouths are saying is needed for a relationship with God.

mikebr
Sep 7th 2011, 08:20 PM
Not many examples, are there? Not all Jews believed healing was a bad thing on Sabbath, in fact there are older Jewish writings that put a precedence on life over Sabbath. just a few loudmouths probably. Hand washing is a levite regulaton, some pharisees apparently took up that role upon themselves, and expected the wandering Rabbi's to do the same. Again, not an earth-shattering ordeal.

Say what you want, but I'll stand by what Jesus said. "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments."

If you love him, you are keeping the whole law. Kinda like saying "if you want to visit me, you will come see me."

John clearly says "This is my commandment: that you love one another as I have loved you."

mikebr
Sep 7th 2011, 09:24 PM
Keck, in my view you are right on in this analysis of the lyrics.

There is a strong antinomian movement afoot disquised as a new seriousness about loving God, as if the imagery associated with marriage and romantic relationships should be taken more literally than figuratively. This quest for a new 'authenticity' in our love of God, which condemns all human efforts to please the Lord, as self-justifying acts which deny Christ's work on the Cross, asks us all to be in awe about its proponents' daring to get real with God. In reality, this interpretive move is as idolatrous as pretending with the author of the Twilight saga that evil isn't really evil if we have romantic love. This romance with God stuff cries foul if we are trying to manipulate God by obeying Him, rather than just happening to please Him by accident as we pursue our great affections for Him. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of agape, and attempts to pull it down to the level of eros, really. It's internally inconistent with its own ideas of what we oughta do, it is inconsistent with Scripture, and it is inconsistent with how human beings really function. On its face it pretends to be a higher obedience, one properly motivated. Underneath, it is no obedience at all, because the Christian cannot be properly motivated to obey if they do not believe "He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him" and that they will be judged and rewarded for the deeds of the body and the heart with which they are done, after they are born again and regenerate. At best, this is a call to pay attention to the inward desire, to make sure we desire what we ought to, so we are not hypocrites by desiring the opposite of what we do. But by what method are we to get that change of heart?

Francis Chan describes what he thinks our inner emotions about God and obedience oughta be, but how we get there is far less clear. Just don't forget to be pashionate, okay?

When Jason Gray, fka Gay, says he doesn't want something to believe in, he is either saying salvation and obedience are not by faith, or he is saying, 'I'm so immature spiritually that I can't bring myself to obey just because someone told me Jesus is the way.' I tend to believe it is more the latter, though it tends to result in the former.

Eyelog

And why exactly do you call yourself eyelog? When you call a person gay that you don't even know it destroys all credibility with the world and much of the body? Jason Gray makes me want to know Jesus more. I'm not even sure your point is?

keck553
Sep 8th 2011, 04:20 AM
If you love him, you are keeping the whole law. Kinda like saying "if you want to visit me, you will come see me."

John clearly says "This is my commandment: that you love one another as I have loved you."

Really, we need to move beyond the elementary principals. How much should we consider one who is on a milk diet? Does not the writer of Hebrews exhort us -

Heb 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. Heb 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

keck553
Sep 8th 2011, 04:24 AM
And why exactly do you call yourself eyelog? When you call a person gay that you don't even know it destroys all credibility with the world and much of the body? Jason Gray makes me want to know Jesus more. I'm not even sure your point is?

"Gay" was his former given name, changed to "Gray" due to google issues his fans encounterd. Aren't you jumping to conclusions about Eyelog's motives based on a revealed factoid? See how easy it is to mis-judge someone in ignorance?

mikebr
Sep 8th 2011, 11:19 AM
Really, we need to move beyond the elementary principals. How much should we consider one who is on a milk diet? Does not the writer of Hebrews exhort us -

Heb 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. Heb 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


I don't get it.

mikebr
Sep 8th 2011, 11:20 AM
"Gay" was his former given name, changed to "Gray" due to google issues his fans encounterd. Aren't you jumping to conclusions about Eyelog's motives based on a revealed factoid? See how easy it is to mis-judge someone in ignorance?

I'm sure his motives for such were pure.

keck553
Sep 8th 2011, 03:36 PM
I'm sure his motives for such were pure.

They why accuse him of judging this artist as being a homosexual?

keck553
Sep 8th 2011, 03:58 PM
I don't get it.

If you continue to pursue the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, you will get it, I assure you of that, and that is my friend, the Glory of God and the substance of hope.

here's another angle to consider - throughout the last 2 milennia, God has drawn to Him countless souls, virtually all of them through the agency of His servents and their witness, and there are countless numbers of them also. Not always or even usually through "clergy" but mostly through "laymen" - regular folks like you and me. But not exclusively through preaching, singing, verbal communication, that is only one of several ways God reveals His glory and raises disciples.

So you see, no one gets the glory for bringing another to Christ except God the Father, so it makes me squimish when folks worship, or divert their eyeballs from God to various people who attain a celebriity status - and that can be anyone from Paul of the Bible to a musician.

It is not us, it is God within us that does this kind of work. How useful we are to God is reflected in our walk in accordance with HIS ways. That's just the baaic physics of God to man revelation and man to God response.

John 8:32
Sep 8th 2011, 04:09 PM
If you continue to pursue the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, you will get it, I assure you of that, and that is my friend, the Glory of God and the substance of hope.

here's another angle to consider - throughout the last 2 milennia, God has drawn to Him countless souls, virtually all of them through the agency of His servents and their witness, and there are countless numbers of them also. Not always or even usually through "clergy" but mostly through "laymen" - regular folks like you and me. But not exclusively through preaching, singing, verbal communication, that is only one of several ways God reveals His glory and raises disciples.

So you see, no one gets the glory for bringing another to Christ except God the Father, so it makes me squimish when folks worship, or divert their eyeballs from God to various people who attain a celebriity status - and that can be anyone from Paul of the Bible to a musician.

It is not us, it is God within us that does this kind of work. How useful we are to God is reflected in our walk in accordance with HIS ways. That's just the baaic physics of God to man revelation and man to God response.

Well said, my relationship is not with an organization or a man, but with the Father and Christ.

mikebr
Sep 8th 2011, 11:51 PM
If you continue to pursue the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, you will get it, I assure you of that, and that is my friend, the Glory of God and the substance of hope.

here's another angle to consider - throughout the last 2 milennia, God has drawn to Him countless souls, virtually all of them through the agency of His servents and their witness, and there are countless numbers of them also. Not always or even usually through "clergy" but mostly through "laymen" - regular folks like you and me. But not exclusively through preaching, singing, verbal communication, that is only one of several ways God reveals His glory and raises disciples.

So you see, no one gets the glory for bringing another to Christ except God the Father, so it makes me squimish when folks worship, or divert their eyeballs from God to various people who attain a celebriity status - and that can be anyone from Paul of the Bible to a musician.

It is not us, it is God within us that does this kind of work. How useful we are to God is reflected in our walk in accordance with HIS ways. That's just the baaic physics of God to man revelation and man to God response.

I totally agree. TOTALLY.

mikebr
Sep 8th 2011, 11:53 PM
They why accuse him of judging this artist as being a homosexual?

I should have hit the sarcasm button.;)

I think it was kinda like folks using Obama's whole name.

Eyelog
Sep 9th 2011, 01:42 PM
And why exactly do you call yourself eyelog?

After I registered a day or two ago, the moderators asked me, like everyone else (I gather), to do a self-introductory post, which I did. In it, I explain why I chose that user name -- as if it weren't obvious what my condition is.... :pp

As to your rather cryptic question,
I'm not even sure your point is? ... I thought you'd never ask.

My overt point was that Jason's lyrics in that particular song make me cringe everytime I hear them (even though I like the music), as do the lyrics of many songs out there in the last year or two, which emphasize how helpless some people want to say born again, regenerate Christians are and will continue to be until we see JC face to face.

My covert point, or personal context for my comments, is the fact that I still possess two of Jason's albums back from when he was overtly calling himself "Gay" and relatively unknown. I like his music. I have seen jason in concert twice, and liked him lots and lots. The first time I saw him, my wife and I were sitting next to an overtly gay person who was calling himself gay, but not "Gay."

But more to the covert thrust of my overt comments, I should point out that Jason's first hit, this homage to Francis Chan, follows albums with songs with lyrics that did not make me want to slap him up side the head, or make me want to demand he change his name from a mood to a color, or make me want to comment at all.

It's just that Jason's feigned clumsiness around rules and standards of behavior is no more real than his feigned relapses into studdering. He said in concert a few years ago that he had completely overcome studdering. Now days, he has a recorded interview clip playing on K-Love in which he claims it's still a humbling disability he struggles over. Really, I don't believe a whole lot Jason says about himself, because I can tell he is willing to be a chamelion in order to make it in the business. If that takes jumping on the Crazy Love bandwagon, he's more than glad to do it. He'd jump on the REO speedwagon if it would bring him success in the biz.

One other example of this chamelion put on is Jason's feigned love for the fact that, in order to get some of his songs produced and played, he had to undergo the process of having certain producer(s) gut his original music and reframe it in a manner he never imagined, creating a product that was not uniquely his anymore. While Jason was glad to get the attention and the measure of success such a collaboration brought (and that motive is for now more important to him than retaining his own creative identity), underneath it not only made him have to check his pride, but to forego some self-respect. How do I know? ... me thinks he doth protest his love too much. Check his web site News http://jasongraymusic.com/home#/news:


Gray collaborated with Derek Webb (member of Caedmon's Call, compelling solo artist, agitator) to release this special project for fans giving an inside peak into the process of writing and recording music. The EP features 4 versions of 4 songs, chronicling their journey from inception (the work tape where you hear ideas being discovered and fleshed out), to demo (the first rough version of the song), to master (the definitive version that was recorded for the album), and finally to remix. The most exciting aspect of this project is Derek Webb's reinterpretations of Jason's songs that, according to JesusFreakHideout.com "feel completely fresh while keeping the spirit of the originals..."

.... But let's not allow me to single out this one guy, who I actually like a lot -- largely because he is so talented musically, and especially bc he's so talented with words. He is a brilliant lyricist, and if the producers don't squash him, one day he will settle in with an amazing voice for lyrics that is uniquely Jason, but also more mature and disciplined than what he's done to date.

So, let's get off the former Gay and pick on the girl -- the admittedly imperfect Francesca Battistelli, on her "Free to be me" cut. People love her for singing so well about how lousy she is as a Christian:


I got a couple dents in my fender
Got a couple rips in my jeans
Try to fit the pieces together
But perfection is my enemy
On my own I'm so clumsy
But on Your shoulders I can see
I'm free to be me

Nothing dents my jeans and rips my fenders more than to hear a perfectly good Christian infant say perfection is her enemy. The message in this song is the same worn out sentiment people want to pretend is true, which is stated in various feel-good ways all the time, like this particular incantation from an admirer of Francesca's at http://www.francescamusic.com/content/got-a-couple-dents-in-my-fender-michelle":


[This song] is a good reminder that God created us to be who we are. He doesn't make mistakes. He sees the good in us even when we can't see it in ourselves.
And He has great plans for us. :pp

Rah, yea.

It's like that ridiculous but very catchy song by Israel Houghton, "I am a friend of God." Hey, everybody, have you heard the news? He calls me frieeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnd!

Actually, all the words in that song are great except for the goofy chorus, which creatively goes something like this:


I am a friend of God
I am a friend of God
I am a friend of God
He calls me friend

We all know that when we are born again we are born into the household of God, not as guests or friends, but as those positionally adopted as children of God, and our adoption will be completed upon Christ's return, when we'll recieve our inheritance from God. That's very cool. So, why emphasize the friendship stuff? Why not sing,

I am a child of God Romans 8:16
I am a babe in Christ 1 Pe 2:2
I am an infant who can't handle solid food yet 1 Cor 3:2; Heb 5:12
He calls me fleshly! 1 Cor 3:3

After all, where does God call us his friend? He called Abraham his friend. 2 Chron 20:7; James 2:23. The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. Ex 33:11. But where does the Bible say God calls you and me His friend????? ... Of course, JC says:


“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one laydown his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.... I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. John 15.

What are the qualifications to be a friend of Christ? Get born again? Be a hapless, muck-up, unweened, clumsy rule breaker who won't obey unless he feels like falling in love?

No. Jesus says, You are My friends if you do what I command you. (Here's to Keck for pointing that out).

And you, nimblewillsgrace (mind if I call you Nim for short?), you say His command is that we love each other.

First, you are correct, but second, loving each other calls for laying down our very lives for each other. That ain't easy, whether you are feeling like falling in love at the moment or not. If you aren't reelin' in the feelin', why die for your sib? If you are falling for your sib, you wanna stick around to enjoy all that lovin'. Either way, it's ez to forget to die for your bro or sis. But Jesus says to die for the beloved.

Ironically, JC died at the hands of Romans, tempting us to refer to the crucifiction as a romantic death. But I'm not sure he'd say he was feelig very 'romantic' about it at the time, though perhaps a bit smitten.

Anyway, if you are clumsy, and can't fit the pieces together, and if you are nevertheless feeling like you are "free to be me," what are the odds you are laying down much of anything for others, let alone your life?

This concept that God made us just how he wants us to be, so we should feel no pressure to become more like Christ in His perfection is really a bad, bad teaching. For one thing, when God created A&E in the Garden, I'm sure by 'good' he meant they were 10s. But I see no post-edenic indications God thinks we are all 10s. Maybe Rachel, Joseph, David and Daniel, but few others. So, why the fantasy that in our post-edenic state we are born just as He wants us to be? If we are ugly or sickly or crippled at birth it's bc of the corrupting effects of the fall. So far as our character, prior to regeneratio we are gross, decaying flesh on the vine, ugly in all our ways. So, why should we say that's the way God created us and 'He don't make no junk'?????? Why attribute our flawed bodies and characters to God's creation? Big mistake.

No, A&E were created upright in the Garden, but after the Fall the rest of us are born losers.

Fortunately, however, once we get saved, we have been freed and empowered to stop being spiritual losers. But that surely doesn't mean we aren't still junk physically, or that we have already overcome the sin nature in our character.

So, while Francesca is right we have dents in our fenders and holes in our genes [pun intended], she's wrong to say God is okay with us staying that way. She's wrong to say she's "free to be me" in those respects.

Along the lines of change, people like to say only Christ can change us and make us more like Him. Yet, when a Christian is rude, say on a forum or blog site, the other Christians scold them and tell them to get it together, to fit the pieces together, to stop being so clumsy, to put on some clothes without rips in them and to get rid of that junker car with the dents in the fender. Have some self-respect, they say, and respect others -- rightly so!

So, which is it? Only Christ can change us or we need to get some respect for ourselves and others? Or, is that a false dilemma? Maybe it's not supposed to be an either or. Yet, if you listen to most Christians, you see they feign humility by saying only God can change a heart and change people, then they bash the rude person, and then they excuse themselves from working on changing their own character, because that would be prideful self-help meant to justify themselves. Really though, they are being inconsistent and dishonest, both with themselves and with others.

My annoyance with these phenomena is just that it's obvious that if we keep up this 'don't worry, no one's perfect' mantra, we'll never get to square one in becoming like Jesus. Indeed, why do we see the disappointment and reproof from Paul in 1 Cor 3, that the converts in the Corinthian church were still carnal or fleshly, which is to say they were immature in Christ, and had not grown out of their old ways? If God says we are free to be me in spite of our fleshly ways, why should Paul admonish those "mere men" to get it together and do something to change? If God is the one who is supposed to do it all, and if we lift a finger to change we are dishonoring Christ's work on cross, Paul was wrong to reprove those Corinthian jokers. He should have just let go and let God, man!

... Uh-oh, I see I've spilled the ink out of my keyboard just a bit too much here, so let me share one last set of wonderfully demoralizing lyrics from another one of my favorite 'artists':


Still wonderin' why I'm here.
Still wrestling with my fear
But oh... HE's up to something,
And the farther out I go,
I've seen enough to know
That I'm not here for nothin'...
He's up to somethin'.
There is hope, for me yet,
Because God won't forget,
All the plans HE's made for me
I have to wait and see,
HE's not finished with me yet,
HE's not finished with me yet
HE's not finished with me yet,
HE's not finished with me yet


Gotta love that Brandon Heath. He is so very discerning: God is up to sumptin'; he can just tell it. Apparently, Brandon has had no idea, since he got saved as a teen, what that sumptin' was or oughta be, but he suspects it's a good thing alright, 'cause someone's gotta do sumptin'. Poor, stupid, fearful, confused, clumsy ole Brandon sure wouldn't know what to do, and we certainly shouldn't expect him to DO anything, anyway. After all, we wouldn't want to offend those who think it smart to promote songs with lyrics like his and Francesca's and Israel's and Jason's.

I guess we like that catchy song so much because it encourages us to comfort ourselves with the thought that we are works-in-progress. Well, that ain't such a bad thought, but then we realize that in Brandon's universe, there isn't one thing This you or I could ever do to have a positive impact on improving our conduct, let alone our character -- heck, that wouldn't even cross Brandon's mind that he could have some role in his progress post-regeneration, though he likely knows quite well that Scripture says he's been set free, empowered, enabled and commanded to put off the Old self and put on the New self (Eph 4:22-24), and to offer the members of my body to righteousness to serve it like a slave (Romans 6). He knows very well that Paul says we are under "an obligation" to the Holy Spirit to put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit (Romans 8). Yet, he prefers to read Romans 7 as if it were Paul's confession that he's as much of a spiritual loser as Jason, Francesca, Israel and Brandon himself all make themselves out to be by raising the issue of what to do about our inadequacies and mistakes, but then cop out with their sentimental happy thoughts.

It's like this:


‘Artist’

Happy Thought

Obscured Spiritual Reality



Jason Gray

Falling in love with Jesus brought the change in me

Loving Christ is obeying His rules, lines, words, obligations, and religion; and it takes getting control of your heart, not losing it.



Fancesca B.

I’m free to be me

Christ freed us from the bonds of sin so we would be free to put off the Old me and put on the New me.



Israel

God calls me friend

We can’t say we are a friend of God if do not obey Jesus’ commands. You can't even say you know Him without being a liar if you don't obey Him.



Brandon Heath

He’ not finished with me yet

But if you don’t proactively go after your sanctification, he’ll have to unilaterally discipline you, which is a far slower and far less productive process.




So, tell me, why do we keep telling ourselves God expects nothing out of us after we are born again? We know better than that. Instead of seeking to become that for which He died so we could become it (Titus 2), we seek verses and interpretations of passages and happy catch-phrases which confirm our fleshly desire for spiritual sloth. The flesh loves this idea that it's all up to God to change us if anything good is going to happen. The Old Self has no problem at all letting us sing along with such saltless words, because there's no danger the old man is going have to die.

-- Which reminds me about MercyMe's "So Long Self" lyric. It is not the self that must go. One cannot truly exist without a self. Rather, how about singing about the need to say so long to the Old Self, and hello to the New Self, "which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"? Eph 4:24 By saying we'll become selfless, we confuse the issue and mislead many. Do we really want to imply we are trying to reach a Buddhist Nirvana, eviscerating the self? How dumb is that?

The danger for true believers of our age is not, as so many grace obsessed zealots proclaim, legalism or works or pride or trying to serve in our own strength.

No, the danger of our age is that true believes will keep believing they are helpless to become like Christ. Jesus wants us to become spiritual overcomers, who don't cry out for God to end the testing and affliction and loss, but who endure, persevere and overcome.

Just remember this. To say it's either all God or it's all me is a false dilemma. Who ever said God would do it all for us? Clearly, we are to strive against sin, fight the fight, run the race, swing with aim, beat our bodies, endure hardship as discipline, and embrace our trials with joy (James 1). But who ever said we were supposed to do that alone? We are to be zealous to do good, but we must submit to His leading and avail ourselves of His empowerment. For, once we agree that both doing good works and becoming sanctified in our character are synergistic enterprises, all we need to know then is HOW.

So, what sorts of lyrics would I like to hear in the catchy tunes of today? Try this:

[QUOTE]When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
What a glory He sheds on our way!
While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
And with all who will trust and obey.

Refrain:
Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

Not a shadow can rise, not a cloud in the skies,
But His smile quickly drives it away;
Not a doubt or a fear, not a sigh or a tear,
Can abide while we trust and obey.

Refrain:
Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

Not a burden we bear, not a sorrow we share,
But our toil He doth richly repay;
Not a grief or a loss, not a frown or a cross,
But is blessed if we trust and obey.

Refrain:
Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

But we never can prove the delights of His love
Until all on the altar we lay;
For the favor He shows, for the joy He bestows,
Are for them who will trust and obey.

Refrain:
Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet.
Or we’ll walk by His side in the way.
What He says we will do, where He sends we will go;
Never fear, only trust and obey.

Refrain:
Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

Words: John H. Sam­mis, 1887. http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/t/r/trstobey.htm

Yours, Eyelog

mikebr
Sep 9th 2011, 01:57 PM
You've done your homework, I'll give you that, but if Satan can make me Love Jesus more then, Satan is not what we've been told.

ClayInHisHands
Sep 9th 2011, 02:39 PM
You've done your homework, I'll give you that, but if Satan can make me Love Jesus more then, Satan is not what we've been told.

Satan can help lead us on a path to love Jesus the WRONG WAY though. That describes him perfectly to me. Because it involves us loving ourselves more, when the whole time we think we are loving Jesus more.

ClayInHisHands
Sep 9th 2011, 03:20 PM
Great post Eyelog....I too have been very uneasy about these songs on the radio the last few years and have had opposition as to I'm being negative and judgemental.

They say it sounds insane
We say that we've been changed by the power of crazy love
This world, it looks at us like we're ridiculous
Baby, it's all because of crazy love

I know what they mean, I THINK THEY KNOW what they mean, so why don't they just say it...forget sales numbers affected by people FEELING offended. Or trying to have a hit record that just makes you feel all crazy in love. Also, who is baby in the last line....what's that got to do with it? Sounds like more sounding like regular good old fashioned feel good music to make you feel all warm. Now granted, I always thought it said maybe, but every lyric I've looked up says baby though...so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.

I always replace the words as such...

They say it sounds insane
We say that we've been changed by the power of Christ in us
This world, it looks at us like we're ridiculous
Maybe, it's all because of Christ in us

keck553
Sep 9th 2011, 03:24 PM
Well said, my relationship is not with an organization or a man, but with the Father and Christ.

I would say Amen to that with this caveat - God expects us grow and prosper in community and fellowship with like-minded believers; I think that is a sound BIblical concept.

keck553
Sep 9th 2011, 03:24 PM
I should have hit the sarcasm button.;)

I think it was kinda like folks using Obama's whole name.

Are you ashamed of Obama's full name?

Desperaux
Sep 9th 2011, 03:26 PM
I don't know about you, Eyelog, but I am considered a friend of God. Those who reject Him and His provision for salvation cannot ever say that.


Romans 5:10-11 (NLT)
10 For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son. 11 So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God.

keck553
Sep 9th 2011, 03:36 PM
[COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]After I registered a day or two ago, the moderators asked me, like everyone else (I gather), to do a self-introductory post, which I did. In it, I explain why I chose that user name -- as if it weren't obvious what my condition is.... :pp

[COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]As to your rather cryptic question, [COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]... I thought you'd never ask.

My overt point was that Jason's lyrics in that particular song make me cringe everytime I hear them (even though I like the music), as do the lyrics of many songs out there in the last year or two, which emphasize how helpless some people want to say born again, regenerate Christians are and will continue to be until we see JC face to face.

You know, I had a simular spirit of darkness (for lack of better description) come over me when I read the lyrics. It took a while for me to analyze it before I could put substance to the initial response my 'spirit' had when I read it. I get a general sense of self-worship and a general message of individual soverignty within it's message. Very, very dark indeed.

John 8:32
Sep 9th 2011, 03:41 PM
I don't know about you, Eyelog, but I am considered a friend of God. Those who reject Him and His provision for salvation cannot ever say that.


Romans 5:10-11 (NLT)
10 For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son. 11 So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God.

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

keck553
Sep 9th 2011, 04:10 PM
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Many here will say those commandments are done away with.

John 8:32
Sep 9th 2011, 04:19 PM
Many here will say those commandments are done away with.

Jesus plainly said that not one jot or tittle would pass until all be fulfilled. He hasn't returned yet, hasn't installed David as king over the twelve tribes, the tribulation hasn't occurred, New Jersusalem is not here on earth yet and the Father hasn't come down to earth yet. So, seems to me His laws are still in effect. But that is just me, I just read what He says and believe it.

John 8:32
Sep 9th 2011, 04:26 PM
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Paul's writings are not the easiest or most straight forward. They must be read and understood in light of what Christ Himself said.

keck553
Sep 9th 2011, 04:27 PM
Jesus plainly said that not one jot or tittle would pass until all be fulfilled. He hasn't returned yet, hasn't installed David as king over the twelve tribes, the tribulation hasn't occurred, New Jersusalem is not here on earth yet and the Father hasn't come down to earth yet. So, seems to me His laws are still in effect. But that is just me, I just read what He says and believe it.

I do not believe God needs to lower His standards to accomodate us. That's all I'm going to say about it.

mikebr
Sep 9th 2011, 05:26 PM
But if you don’t proactively go after your sanctification, he’ll have to unilaterally discipline you, which is a far slower and far less productive process.
Posted by Eyelog

This is not Saul's experience.


I do not believe God needs to lower His standards to accomodate us. That's all I'm going to say about it.

Lets see, from Glorious Heaven to a Roman Cross. I'd say He lowered His standards to accommodate us.

mikebr
Sep 9th 2011, 05:28 PM
Are you ashamed of Obama's full name?

Simply making a comparison saying that some used his whole name in the election in hopes of discrediting him. I could careless if his name was Adolf.

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 05:32 PM
Lets see, from Glorious Heaven to a Roman Cross. I'd say He lowered His standards to accommodate us.

I would suggest that you don't flippently judge the work of Christ without careful thought.

Eyelog
Sep 9th 2011, 05:42 PM
You've done your homework, I'll give you that, but if Satan can make me Love Jesus more then, Satan is not what we've been told.

Nim, I'm confused by what you are saying. I don't recall mentioning Satan in my post. But I am guessing you are saying that Jason's song actually worked for you, because it did help you to focus on loving JC more. And if that's Satanic, or at least wrong, then it seems odd that some good came from it for you.

I will add to my post that I am not against loving the Father, the Son or the HS. Obviously, we are commanded to do that. And I don't think the only time we are loving Him is when we are obeying reluctantly. I believe in a passionate, zealous, pull out the stops love of God, but I disagree to some degree with Chan and others about how you get that kind of love. I know for one thing that repeatedly telling us our love should 'look like this' or 'look like that' might help orient us, but that approach is insufficient to make us authentic lovers of God. Nor can simply meditating on His Word or His attributes or all He's done for me or all He sacrificed, etc. The recipe is simple. Add obedient action to all that sentiment, and now you are building a living faith. Chan and several other names get really touchy about talking about the doing aspect of it. Because they go out of their way to bury that issue, it forces others to go out of their way to uncover it once again, to restore the proper balance of the issues: Inner vs. Outer hope, faith and love.

Without tarrying futher, I'm just concerned that the messages out there tend to be glib and out of balance, usually on purpose, I think, in order to strike a chord with folks, at the cost of jettisoning the deeper reality which may be less appealing to the masses. It was Jason Gray (then Gay) himself who said with quiet contemplation in his voice at that first relatively intimate concert setting where I saw him, that "It's easy to write songs. But it's hard to write a song that connects." Well, he's learnt the connection gimmick now, I guess: Give 'em a one-liner happy thought.

But Jason is not Satan, and none of these people mean harm, I'm sure of that.

In fact it was probably not right of me to bash them personally in public, even if they are public figures. One should try to reprove gently. Also, I don't like to rain on anyone's parade, if they like these performers. It's just that I am concerned about the impact they are having on the body of believers at large. Keck felt it and saw it. ClayInHisHands does. And K-Love, with its tendency to champion Chan and the music that expresses his attitude, has an ever broadening monopoly in many areas of the nation. Stations like that make me wonder who will be at the helm as their control and influence becomes more pervasive.

But, from beginning to end, all I want is to get the false views of practical sanctification out of the way, so we can all embrace our own sanctification, with confidence and effectual proactivity. For, we are called to become like Jesus, and He's waiting for us to get serious and get down to business.

Yours,

Eyelog

Eyelog
Sep 9th 2011, 05:47 PM
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Paul's writings are not the easiest or most straight forward. They must be read and understood in light of what Christ Himself said.

I heartily agree that the centrality of Christ's words should be used to bring proper balance to the meanings in the epistles. I appreciate all your solid stances and Scriptures championing obedience, the law of God and what it takes to love.

Eyelog

keck553
Sep 9th 2011, 06:50 PM
Lets see, from Glorious Heaven to a Roman Cross. I'd say He lowered His standards to accommodate us.

So now God and sin are compatible?

keck553
Sep 9th 2011, 06:51 PM
This is not Saul's experience.

Oh yes it was. He spent almost 20 years working it out before he came back.

keck553
Sep 9th 2011, 06:53 PM
Simply making a comparison saying that some used his whole name in the election in hopes of discrediting him. I could careless if his name was Adolf.

I don't think they were characterizing him by his name. I think they were pointing out that by what comes out of his lips and by his actions, the image of his character fits his name. See the difference?

mikebr
Sep 9th 2011, 07:32 PM
I don't think they were characterizing him by his name. I think they were pointing out that by what comes out of his lips and by his actions, the image of his character fits his name. See the difference?

I don't really know what their motivations are or were I can only guess. The same with Christian musicians and people on message boards.

keck553
Sep 9th 2011, 08:30 PM
I don't really know what their motivations are or were I can only guess. The same with Christian musicians and people on message boards.

Christian musicians characterize themselves through their lyrics and actions, don't you think? So tell me, when people see a charisamtic celebrety, do they want to be just like them or do they want to be like Jesus?

Think about it.

mikebr
Sep 9th 2011, 10:00 PM
So now God and sin are compatible?

I read something about Him becoming sin.

mikebr
Sep 9th 2011, 10:03 PM
Christian musicians characterize themselves through their lyrics and actions, don't you think? So tell me, when people see a charisamtic celebrety, do they want to be just like them or do they want to be like Jesus?

Think about it.

I can honestly say that I have never wanted to be like any celebrity or person at all for that matter, but if a person makes me want to know Jesus more I honor that person for Honoring Jesus. I only know Jason Gray through the songs he writes and sings. I like 'em. They make me think of Jesus and all that He has done for me. I don't give a rip about his motivation really. I think Paul said that as long as Christ was preached it was enough. He preaches Christ to me.

keck553
Sep 9th 2011, 10:27 PM
I can honestly say that I have never wanted to be like any celebrity or person at all for that matter, but if a person makes me want to know Jesus more I honor that person for Honoring Jesus. I only know Jason Gray through the songs he writes and sings. I like 'em. They make me think of Jesus and all that He has done for me. I don't give a rip about his motivation really. I think Paul said that as long as Christ was preached it was enough. He preaches Christ to me.

Oh man, I have. I've had to smash so many idols I've lost count.....but that is uniquely my problem for God to address. And boy, did He....and the consequences remain and probably will to the end of my days.

mikebr
Sep 9th 2011, 10:30 PM
Oh man, I have. I've had to smash so many idols I've lost count.....but that is uniquely my problem for God to address. And boy, did He....and the consequences remain and probably will to the end of my days.

Carrying a few scars myself, mostly self inflicted, just not human idols, unless they are my wife and kids. Still no one I ever wanted to be like. I've always been kinda anti-hero, even when I was a kid.

keck553
Sep 9th 2011, 10:41 PM
Carrying a few scars myself, mostly self inflicted, just not human idols, unless they are my wife and kids. Still no one I ever wanted to be like. I've always been kinda anti-hero, even when I was a kid.

Oh I mean things like my own talents, skills, money, freedom, even rebellion against religion - the rebellion can become an idol of pride, self pity, fear......all these things can become idols.

My dad was 100% rebellious against anything "established", so I had to deal with that streak too. I think by the time God gets ahold of most of us, we're shipwecks, and sometimes we don't even realize it.

The pain that grows from sin and spreads it's multitude of dark fingers over loved ones, family, and people in general is sometimes is too much to bear. Imagine that pain magnified several billion times and layed on Messiah's shoulders as he was hanging on a tree. The pain of the loss of communion with His Father for the first time ever. That price, it seems too high for a sour, nastly old stinky piece of dust like me. Why do I expect a blessiing when I deserve the nails? - That's what causes me to love Him.

mikebr
Sep 9th 2011, 11:42 PM
Oh I mean things like my own talents, skills, money, freedom, even rebellion against religion - the rebellion can become an idol of pride, self pity, fear......all these things can become idols.

My dad was 100% rebellious against anything "established", so I had to deal with that streak too. I think by the time God gets ahold of most of us, we're shipwecks, and sometimes we don't even realize it.

The pain that grows from sin and spreads it's multitude of dark fingers over loved ones, family, and people in general is sometimes is too much to bear. Imagine that pain magnified several billion times and layed on Messiah's shoulders as he was hanging on a tree. The pain of the loss of communion with His Father for the first time ever. That price, it seems too high for a sour, nastly old stinky piece of dust like me. Why do I expect a blessiing when I deserve the nails? - That's what causes me to love Him.

Me Too. And yes I have been my own worst idol as well.

mikebr
Sep 9th 2011, 11:53 PM
Another song that get to the heart of the matter with what's the matter with our hearts. Its by Allen Levi

There’s a land where the people all walk around backwards
They walk around backwards everywhere they go
They are bumped, they are bruised, they are scarred and broken
And why they walk around backwards, they don’t know
They stumble and they stagger into one another
They trip and they tumble and they all fall down
There’s a dangerous cliff that they cannot see
And a lake at the bottom where the people drown

It seems that they’ve always walked around backwards
They were backwards born, they were backwards grown
The little children learn it from their mamas and papas
And they’re reluctant to leave what they’ve always known
Well some do worse and some do better
They all get by in the backward town
They all fear the cliff and the lake below
But the people will fall and the children will drown

Then a stranger came to town and to them he walked…backwards
It was the strangest sight they ever did see
But he had no bumps, no scars, no bruises
And he said this is how you were meant to be
If you’ll just follow me, if you’ll just turn around
You can see where you’re going, and you’ll not fall down
You’ll have no fear of the cliff and the lake
And you’ll not tumble in and you’ll never drown

But the people got afraid and the people got angry
When he said, “Come and follow,” everyone refused
They all got together and did away the stranger
And they still get broken and scarred and bruised

But some, I’ve been told, heard the things he said
You can see their footprints around the town
And they stand at the cliff with the words of the stranger
“You’ll do fine if you’ll just turn around”
There still is a land where the people walk backwards
They walk around backwards everywhere they go

http://www.allenlevi.com/songsandstories/LandBackwards.html

Eyelog
Sep 10th 2011, 04:03 PM
ah.....the donkey card.....whomever says "donkey" first wins. By default.

Many people are led to God in ungodly ways; I was - that's nothing new, but it's not the road I would suggest embarking on unless pain and anguish is something to look forward to.

But the question was "Is this Biblical?" The answer remains the same; it seems that you are simply moving the target to where the arrow struck.

Keck, I was just reading this thread thru from the beginning. You repeatedly make some very good responses, and this is one of your best.

I think when I slowed down and read what Nim was saying I gained a much better understanding of her perspective. (Am I correct that Nim is a her...?).

I have not struggled with being a victim of legalism, though I have known legalistic believers who have caused lots of trouble in certain churches I've attended. I have seen people think they own the church. Rather than bash them, in person I have tried to understand their complex sincerity about their faith. they have in some cases tied their faith to physical places and objecdts which they have themselves invested in, in terms of their time, trouble, energy, money and affection. They were there when the beautiful light fixtures were picked out and money raised for them as offerings to God, and now the new pastor wants to take them down and get rid of them, in the name of overhauling and modernizing the sanctuary they worked hard to create, and have loved worshipping in, and in which they married of kids and mourned loved ones and worshipped with family in good times and bad. how could he dismantle their spiritual haven? Does outreach require destroying what they have come to love?

This is to say there are always many ways to look at every situation. Biblically, the attachment to place and things is wrong, yet the temple was holy and precious. But what about loving those who might come? But what about loving those who are the dear souls who carried the torch for so long? on and on.

It's important that we understand each other, and as Nim says, this medium makes that difficult. Yet, people might not ever talk at all, if this medium were not the means.

I appreciate the opportunity to try.

Eyelog

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 04:48 PM
" Am I correct that Nim is a her....?"

Man I must really be in touch with my feminine side. Nope, 50 year old dude. And I really do appreciate the time and thought you folks have put into this thread.

Eyelog
Sep 10th 2011, 04:57 PM
found this quite by accident but I think it applies.


Ron Block

Nim, this fellow says, "we build Law-fences and sin-boundaries to help keep ourselves course." The Pharisees did that, heaping up requirements which went beyond what God commanded, and then persecuted people if they did not meet those requirements. Worst of all, in the process they broke the command to love others, especially in the way they enforced those rules and regulations. That was what Jesus criticized them for.

In contrast, Jesus said the commands of God need to be obeyed, and failure to do so is sin. That has not changed simply because he has paid our sin penalty. When we don't do what we are commanded, we are still sinning. The question is, why are we sinning? Is it because we don't take his commands seriously? If so, I think we are in for trouble. Is it because we were weak or were not careful? Then, we need to get stronger and be more careful. Is it because we did not understand or we were unaware? Then, we need to become wiser. In all cases, however, we need to repent, confess to Him and receive forgiveness. 1 John 1.

The problem is that some people confuse the kinds of rules the pharisees added to the true law of God with the law of God itself. When they think they don't have to obey God anymore, especially if they are closely tied to Him in love, they are kidding themselves. You can't be closely tied in love with the Lord if you are sinning. John said:


3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. 1 jn 2



Those who say, I am abiding in the vine of Christ, so I don't have to worry about obeying some stupid command, have completely missed the point.

But let's talk about Jason again.

I can imagine that a song like Jason's strikes a good chord with someone needing a cold, fresh glass of water after having been oppressed by a church or culture that demands outward performance and punishes you socially and emotionally if you don't bend to their will, especially if it concerns behaviors that are not openly rebellious against God's true commandments. in that case, Jason's song helps bring a much needed balance to your spiritual life.

If you come from my background, where there was no outward pressure to conform to outward behaviors so much, but the inward relationship with the Lord was the emphasis, then you feel oppressed by the lack of spiritual backbone in the church and the Christian culture you observe. in that case, Jason's song weighs heavily on the wrong side of the scale for you, making it hard to balance things out. When you hear it on nationally syndicated stations it makes you feel like the whole American church is going the way of licentiousness.

The answer about whether Jason's song is good or bad, then, lies in what it is used for. If it is used to bring true spiritual balance, it is a healing balm. If it is used to perpetuate an imbalance, it is a corrupting acid.

On the other hand, swinging like a pendulum from legalism to licentiousness is not to gain a balance either. Actually, the latter state is worse than the first.

So, when you say you have become free, paraphrasing, to not worry about whether you are sinning against God, I'm not sure if the pendulum has swung full tilt or if you have gained that much needed balance.

Eyelog

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 05:22 PM
So, when you say you have become free, paraphrasing, to not worry about whether you are sinning against God, I'm not sure if the pendulum has swung full tilt or if you have gained that much needed balance.

Eyelog

If you knew me, you probably wouldn't be making this statement. Let me see if I can help you . I have been crucified with Christ, the old sinful me is dead. Nevertheless I am alive, except its not me, (my old sinful self), its Christ that lives in me. And this life, the one you see, hear, smell, touch, accuse, praise, love, hate, the prodigal, the older son, Jacob, Esau, sinner, saint, I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who LOVED me and GAVE HIS life for me. Sometimes you see a stinky decaying corpse, sometimes you see the Light of the World shining through the cracks. I am a broken vessel, cup, temple, container that is slowly eroding to reveal what is truly inside me. I tried to stop sinning because it was a law. It only made things worse. Then I discovered that He loved me, How could I do the things I used to do. If you don't understand that as Freedom you are likely to think the pendulum has swung full tilt away from Him, If you do you will understand that there simply is no balance with God. Grace and Law are not on a scale. Grace outweighs the Law and it has conquered my soul. It truly has been more like falling in love than something to believe in. More like losing myself, than giving my allegiance. You can't take it away from me. Ones with more influence over my life than you have tried. Its Too Late. A pastor friend of mine told me that people didn't want others to believe what I had discovered because it took all their control away. :D

Eyelog
Sep 10th 2011, 07:02 PM
I have been crucified with Christ, the old sinful me is dead. Nevertheless I am alive, except its not me, (my old sinful self), its Christ that lives in me. And this life, the one you see, hear, smell, touch, accuse, praise, love, hate, the prodigal, the older son, Jacob, Esau, sinner, saint, I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who LOVED me and GAVE HIS life for me. Sometimes you see a stinky decaying corpse, sometimes you see the Light of the World shining through the cracks. I am a broken vessel, cup, temple, container that is slowly eroding to reveal what is truly inside me. I tried to stop sinning because it was a law. It only made things worse. Then I discovered that He loved me, How could I do the things I used to do. :D

Well, I am very happy for you Mr. Nim.

Specifically, you said:
Then I discovered that He loved me, How could I do the things I used to do.

I believe there are all sorts of issues that go into whether we will get right with God and be able to experience Him. For you, perhaps the revelation that He really did love you was the tipping point. That's awesome. But it would be wrong for practical theologians to think everyone has the same tipping point.



If you knew me, you probably wouldn't be making this statement. Let me see if I can help you . ... If you don't understand that as Freedom you are likely to think the pendulum has swung full tilt away from Him, If you do you will understand that there simply is no balance with God. Grace and Law are not on a scale. Grace outweighs the Law and it has conquered my soul. It truly has been more like falling in love than something to believe in. More like losing myself, than giving my allegiance.

Rhetorically, you have discredited my use of the metaphors of a pendulum and a scale. Perhaps those metaphors really are aweful. Maybe they totally mischaracterize the nature of God and our relationship to him. Maybe those metaphors should be banished to the lake of fire, to burn with intense agony forever more.

But what's so great about your metaphor, of conquoring? And why do you come back and secretly use a variant of my scale metaphor with this weighing metaphor for your own purposes? There's something ingenuous about such practices. You are seeking to subjugate my understanding of the issues associated with faith and God's law, forcefully seeking to convince me that your understanding is better, mostly because you used the 'G' word, Grace.

Why? The answer is in your final comments.


You can't take it away from me. Ones with more influence over my life than you have tried. Its Too Late. A pastor friend of mine told me that people didn't want others to believe what I had discovered because it took all their control away.

You are on the offensive, because that's the best defense. But surely, you don't feel i'm trying to take anything away from you, or that I want some kind of control over you. Do I want you to let go your joy in the Lord? No. But if you are living in sin, you had better start caring about that. Any peace in the Lord while you live in obvious sin is a deception, friend. But I am not in the least assuming that is your situation. That's a matter between you and God. I'm just saying that those who prefer to say there are no rules or lines or fences are usually not the ones walking on the straight and narrow. They are the ones who are living in wishful thinking, secretly justifying their own lawlessness. I'm fairly confident that's not you, though, because you said, "How could I do the things I used to do."

So far as people who do have influence over you, apparently Jason is one of them. So, when Jason says things that give an incomplete account of the Christian life (see, I can say it without the "balance" and "scale" metaphors), users like Keck and John and inhishands dude and i get concerned for you.

On the other hand, you may know the Scriptures so well that you could teach us a thing or two. For one thing, if you are really able to please the Lord without having to read the Word or ever doing anything you don't want to or without ever having to resist doing something you want to do, then you should be teaching all of us. (But I believe that is impossible. God did not set it up that way. Jesus, who was closer to the Father than you, Jason, Francis and I will ever hope to be, constantly had to do what He did not want to, and not do what He wanted to. But He was glad to overcome His own desires, because He loved the Father, ... and wanted to OBEY him. "Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." Hebrews 5:8).


Don't misconstrue my point. I believe you have had a very valid and worthwhile change of heart, perhaps helped along by Jason's song. I also believe it to be a legitimate and good thing.

I just wonder, what should we do with James, who was addressing born again, regenerate, Spirit in-dwelt belieivers? He said:


21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all [v]that remains of wickedness, in [w]humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. 22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his [x]natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, [y]he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but [z]an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in [aa]what he does. James 1.

Should we forget that sorta thing and just love? What would that look like?

Eyelog

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 07:33 PM
But what's so great about your metaphor, of conquoring? And why do you come back and secretly use a variant of my scale metaphor with this weighing metaphor for your own purposes? There's something ingenuous about such practices. You are seeking to subjugate my understanding of the issues associated with faith and God's law, forcefully seeking to convince me that your understanding is better, mostly because you used the 'G' word, Grace.

Not smart enough to pull this off. Anything I said was from my heart, I don't even know what subjugate means and I'm certainly not seeking to convince you my way is better. Grace however is a better way. But I think you know that. I wouldn't have personally come up with the idea of grace. Karma seems much more fair.


You are on the offensive, because that's the best defense. But surely, you don't feel i'm trying to take anything away from you, or that I want some kind of control over you. Do I want you to let go your joy in the Lord? No. But if you are living in sin, you had better start caring about that. Any peace in the Lord while you live in obvious sin is a deception, friend. But I am not in the least assuming that is your situation. That's a matter between you and God. I'm just saying that those who prefer to say there are no rules or lines or fences are usually not the ones walking on the straight and narrow. They are the ones who are living in wishful thinking, secretly justifying their own lawlessness. I'm fairly confident that's not you, though, because you said, "How could I do the things I used to do."

If I am on the defensive, and I probably am, I apologize.

What would you consider lawlessness? I don't drink, smoke, gossip, or cheat on my wife. I go to church all the time, sing in the choir, I have taught and even preached. I read my Bible often. I pray and treat people better than I do myself. If you asked anyone who knows me I would bet they would describe me as a Christian. I am RELIGIOUS to the core, BUT, I over eat while children are hungry, I waste water while much of the world is thirsty. There are folks in prison not far from my house that I never think about. I get upset and say things to my wife and kids that I shouldn't. I judge those who don't do the things I listed that I did do. I think this comes from looking at that perfect law, that law of liberty and knowing that I don't come close. But I think that "law of Liberty" is love. Someone said "its not what I don't know about the Bible that scares me, its what I do know." But Christ, for whatever reason, has decided to birth Himself in this smelly, stinky, pig trough that I call me and He is changing the world through me, in spite of me.


Don't misconstrue my point. I believe you have had a very valid and worthwhile change of heart, perhaps helped along by Jason's song. I also believe it to be a legitimate and good thing.
What is taking place in my heart started a long time before I ever heard of Jason. The song confirms that which was done in secret between me and my Father.

keck553
Sep 10th 2011, 07:36 PM
I read something about Him becoming sin.

sin offering. .

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 07:48 PM
sin offering. .

Do you believe the sin offering was so that God could love Israel more or so that Israel could love God more?

keck553
Sep 12th 2011, 12:18 AM
Do you believe the sin offering was so that God could love Israel more or so that Israel could love God more?

God has already loved Israel more, it is impossible to outlove God.

mikebr
Sep 12th 2011, 12:23 AM
God has already loved Israel more, it is impossible to outlove God.

Yep that's what I think.