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Realist1981
Sep 2nd 2011, 06:12 PM
Jerimiah 31-40
KJV Version

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

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#1) Is this New Covenant something yet future or do you believe that this is referring to Jesus' covenant?

#2) God says that unless we can measure Heaven he will not cast off ALL of Israel.

So first we must identify who is Israel. I believe that the New Covenant was made true through Christ. I believe that "Israel" are those who are "Of the seed" of Israel i.e Jewish people by birthright, who believe in Christ along with Gentiles, i.e. the Nations anybody outside of the physical linage, who also believes in Christ.


I don't believe that God has a seperate plan of Salvation for Non believing Jews.

Backtrack.......

God changed Jacob's name to Israel because he physically wrestled with God. The name Israel means "To Wrestle with God".


Question: How can God physically wrestle with a man as depicted in Genesis 32??
If God is invisible and untouchable what's up with this story? After wrestling a man why would Jacob then turn around and say "I've seen God face to face... ect..."


Speaking of the word "Jewish" or Jew.
The word is derived from Judah who was one of the children of Jacob/Israel and obviously one of the Twelve Tribes of Jacob/Israel.

Question: Why do.... Jews describe themselves as... Jews? Is every "Jew" a descendant from Judah?

There are 11 other tribes of Jacob/Israel why single out one to describe your heritage?

Ok, and Finally my last question or observation.
The Covenant God made with Jacob/Israel isn't even a Salvation Covenant. It's a land Covenant.

Question: Who is the House of Israel? And how do you know that you are apart of it if you don't even know what tribe you're apart of?


I have many questions to many to list. I've tried to stay on the topic.
Thanks for your responses in advanced

John 8:32
Sep 2nd 2011, 06:18 PM
So first we must identify who is Israel. I believe that the New Covenant was made true through Christ. I believe that "Israel" are those who are "Of the seed" of Israel i.e Jewish people by birthright, who believe in Christ along with Gentiles, i.e. the Nations anybody outside of the physical linage, who also believes in Christ.

Israel and Judah are two distinctly separate nations...

2Ki 16:1 In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah Ahaz the son of Jotham king of Judah began to reign.
2Ki 16:2 Twenty years old was Ahaz when he began to reign, and reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem, and did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD his God, like David his father.
2Ki 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.
2Ki 16:4 And he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree.
2Ki 16:5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him.
2Ki 16:6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

The context of this is that Israel is at war with the Jews. Judah was one tribe of twelve and just as all Pennsylvanians are Americans, not all Americans are Pennsylvanians. All Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews.

Ahaz was king of Judah and Pekah the king of Israel.

divaD
Sep 2nd 2011, 07:33 PM
Jerimiah 31-40
KJV Version

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
[SIZE=3]
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________


#1) Is this New Covenant something yet future or do you believe that this is referring to Jesus' covenant?




34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Maybe it's just me, but somehow I can't see verse 34 being applicable to any time in this present age. If God remembers one's sins no more in this present age, does that then mean one can sin all they want after that point, since God no longer remembers any sins? I also have to wonder why we still have teachers these days, if verse 34 is already applicable to this present day and age? Kind of seems like a contradiction, but again, that might just be me and how I reason things overall.

I say all of that to say the following. I would think verses 31-33 wouldn't be applicable until verse 34 is. Verse 37 is also interesting. Even tho Israel now consists of both Jew and Gentile, clearly verse 37 is solely about ethnic Israel, since it says...I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done. We know the LORD isn't going to do this, since heaven above can't be measured. We certainly can't apply the church as we now have it to verse 37, since it says..for all that they have done. Meaning ethnic Israel, and not the church.

Realist1981
Sep 2nd 2011, 07:55 PM
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.


Does this not mean that God will not cast off ALL the seed of Israel?
There have been Jewish believers since Christ ascended. Would that not qualify them as part of that seed of Israel whome God will not cast off? Would that not qualify them as to being those Paul spoke about in Roman 9:27?

Only belief in Jesus as the Christ brings salvation or is there some other way?

mikebr
Sep 2nd 2011, 08:09 PM
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Maybe it's just me, but somehow I can't see verse 34 being applicable to any time in this present age. If God remembers one's sins no more in this present age, does that then mean one can sin all they want after that point, since God no longer remembers any sins? I also have to wonder why we still have teachers these days, if verse 34 is already applicable to this present day and age? Kind of seems like a contradiction, but again, that might just be me and how I reason things overall.

I say all of that to say the following. I would think verses 31-33 wouldn't be applicable until verse 34 is. Verse 37 is also interesting. Even tho Israel now consists of both Jew and Gentile, clearly verse 37 is solely about ethnic Israel, since it says...I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done. We know the LORD isn't going to do this, since heaven above can't be measured. We certainly can't apply the church as we now have it to verse 37, since it says..for all that they have done. Meaning ethnic Israel, and not the church.

In context (read Hebrews 8) it is not a future event. Are you suggesting another New Covenant? If so how do we know which New Covenant is being discussed. Not to sound arrogant, but the Lord has taught me more than any preacher. As a matter of fact I have spent the last 10 years trying to un-learn a bunch of stuff. Maybe if folks listened to God instead of men we would be much better off.

divaD
Sep 2nd 2011, 08:11 PM
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.


Does this not mean that God will not cast off ALL the seed of Israel?
There have been Jewish believers since Christ ascended. Would that not qualify them as part of that seed of Israel whome God will not cast off? Would that not qualify them as to being those Paul spoke about in Roman 9:27?

Only belief in Jesus as the Christ brings salvation or is there some other way?



I hear what you're saying, yet at the same time, I'm having difficulties with verse 34 of Jeremiah 31. Is there an alternate way to understood that verse? Can that verse be explained by the NT? Personally, I think so.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I think this fits the context of Jeremiah 31:34 myself. So now it's just a question of timing. in relation to Revelation 21:3-4, assuming the two are related.

divaD
Sep 2nd 2011, 08:15 PM
In context (read Hebrews 8) it is not a future event. Are you suggesting another New Covenant? If so how do we know which New Covenant is being discussed. Not to sound arrogant, but the Lord has taught me more than any preacher. As a matter of fact I have spent the last 10 years trying to un-learn a bunch of stuff. Maybe if folks listened to God instead of men we would be much better off.



I don't know what I'm suggesting, but I am suggesting Jer 31:34 seems a bit difficult to swallow, if it's already applying to the here and now. In my last post, I felt Rev 21 explained that passage. Do you know of any other passages in the NT that might explain Jer 31:34?

BroRog
Sep 2nd 2011, 08:36 PM
#1) Is this New Covenant something yet future or do you believe that this is referring to Jesus' covenant?Both. The New Covenant is future, and Jesus' sacrifice will be the basis of such a covenant.


#2) God says that unless we can measure Heaven he will not cast off ALL of Israel. Yes. Paul discusses this aspect in Romans 11:11 and following.


So first we must identify who is Israel. I believe that the New Covenant was made true through Christ. I believe that "Israel" are those who are "Of the seed" of Israel i.e Jewish people by birthright, who believe in Christ along with Gentiles, i.e. the Nations anybody outside of the physical linage, who also believes in Christ.
I disagree. Jeremiah is explicit when he says the the New Covenant will be made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.


I don't believe that God has a seperate plan of Salvation for Non believing Jews. No one does.


Question: How can God physically wrestle with a man as depicted in Genesis 32??
If God is invisible and untouchable what's up with this story? After wrestling a man why would Jacob then turn around and say "I've seen God face to face... ect..."The text says that Jacob wrestled a man. Apparently the man was a representative of God and spoke for God. Jacob and the man wrestled all night and at the end of the night, the man knocked Jacob's hip out of joint, but Jacob persisted until dawn. When the man wanted to leave, he asked Jacob his name. Then he changed Jacob's name to "Israel: God wrestles, or God perseveres". I believe the lesson Jacob was supposed to learn from this is related to Jacob's prayer earlier. Jacob reminds God that he made some very specific promises to him concerning both is wellbeing and his inheritance in having many children. And out of fear that Esau would kill both him and his entire family and wipe them out, he petitions God for help. God is trying to tell Jacob (as I see it), "You and I want the same thing. But for some reason you want to work against me and my efforts to help you. I've always helped you and blessed you and you have always wrestled with me as I did. And I have worked things in your favor, but you attributed your blessing and successes to your own scheming, rather than to my efforts. But now, when the situation is totally out of your control and you can't devise a scheme to get out of it, you come to me for a blessing. And even here, you are fighting me." When it says that Jacob saw his face, it might mean that he literally saw his face, but I don't think so. It think what he means is that, whereas God has always been in the background during Jacob's life, working behind the scenes, always just a theoretical dogma he decided to believe because his grandfather and his father believed it, now Jacob has had a personal experience with the God of his fathers, even in the form of a messenger who appeared to him in physical form to wrestle with him all night.



Speaking of the word "Jewish" or Jew.
The word is derived from Judah who was one of the children of Jacob/Israel and obviously one of the Twelve Tribes of Jacob/Israel.

Question: Why do.... Jews describe themselves as... Jews? Is every "Jew" a descendant from Judah?
No. It is true that "Jew" is a shortened form of "Judah", but by the time of the New Testament, all the Hebrews were called "Jews."


There are 11 other tribes of Jacob/Israel why single out one to describe your heritage? I don't know. I always assumed it had something to do with the fact that Judah was the leader of the Southern Kingdom, which returned from Exile after the Babylonian Captivity.


Ok, and Finally my last question or observation.
The Covenant God made with Jacob/Israel isn't even a Salvation Covenant. It's a land Covenant.

Question: Who is the House of Israel? And how do you know that you are apart of it if you don't even know what tribe you're apart of?Not sure which covenant you have in mind. God promised to give the land to Abraham and that it would be his in perpetuity. The Mt. Sinai Covenant dictated the conditions under which God would allow Israel to remain in the land and prosper, which means that the covenant wasn't an agreement about ownership of the land but an agreement about residency.

The "house of Israel" indicates the ten families that seceded from the nation to form their own nation at the Schism of Shechem, in which it was said, "What portion to we have in David!" 1Kings 12:16 During the time of Ahaz, God allowed the Assyrians to take these tribes away into exile. These people became known as the Diaspora, and continued to live in countries outside of Palestine. Some of these returned and became known as the Samaritans. It was a Samaritan woman that Jesus met at the well, and it was a Samaritan that became the hero in the parable of the Good Samaritan. And the Jews who lived in Palestine at the time were prejudiced against the Samaritans.

mikebr
Sep 2nd 2011, 08:38 PM
I don't know what I'm suggesting, but I am suggesting Jer 31:34 seems a bit difficult to swallow, if it's already applying to the here and now. In my last post, I felt Rev 21 explained that passage. Do you know of any other passages in the NT that might explain Jer 31:34?


7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[b]:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

It seems to me here, particularly in verses 7 and 13 the writer is comparing the old and new covenant. What else could he be talking about?

mikebr
Sep 2nd 2011, 08:41 PM
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]

We have been taught that this too is a future event but Luke, here in Acts, is saying that it is taking place as they spoke, there at Pentecost.