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BroRog
Sep 7th 2011, 12:07 AM
While some people may think that Paul invented the idea of salvation by faith, he argues his case from the book of Genesis, pointing out that God declared Abraham to be justified in view of his faith. Justification by faith is an OT concept.

Bandit
Sep 7th 2011, 12:16 AM
I hope this isn't news to anyone.

Noonzie
Sep 7th 2011, 01:18 AM
I hope this isn't news to anyone.

you would be surprised. i have had the question asked many times by adults of "How were old testiment men and women saved if Christ had not died for their sins yet?"

I think it a fairly common question from my experience.

BroRog
Sep 7th 2011, 02:12 AM
I hope this isn't news to anyone.The subject came up in another discussion in which Fenris was a participant.

John 8:32
Sep 7th 2011, 10:59 AM
While some people may think that Paul invented the idea of salvation by faith, he argues his case from the book of Genesis, pointing out that God declared Abraham to be justified in view of his faith. Justification by faith is an OT concept.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.


Since the NT was not written until 45AD and forward and not canonized until perhaps around 100AD at the earliest, the only scriptures that they could have had were the books of the OT. These books are able to make one wise unto salvation.

And yes, unfortunately this is news to some.

Fenris
Sep 7th 2011, 12:17 PM
While some people may think that Paul invented the idea of salvation by faith, he argues his case from the book of Genesis, pointing out that God declared Abraham to be justified in view of his faith. Justification by faith is an OT concept.I think the quote in question is out of context.

Philosophically, I don't think this point makes sense. Pre-Christian Jews are depicted as some sort of proto-Christians, which is baffling to me. If Jesus had no new message, the whole NT is superfluous. I see the whole point of the NT being a "new covenant", which is salvation by faith.

Noonzie
Sep 7th 2011, 12:25 PM
I think the quote in question is out of context.

Philosophically, I don't think this point makes sense. Pre-Christian Jews are depicted as some sort of proto-Christians, which is baffling to me. If Jesus had no new message, the whole NT is superfluous. I see the whole point of the NT being a "new covenant", which is salvation by faith.

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished" - Romans 3:25

God's forgiveness of past sin had to be paid for. He is a just God.

"He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD."- Proverbs 17:15

"Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?" - Genesis 18:25

John 8:32
Sep 7th 2011, 12:54 PM
I think the quote in question is out of context.

Philosophically, I don't think this point makes sense. Pre-Christian Jews are depicted as some sort of proto-Christians, which is baffling to me. If Jesus had no new message, the whole NT is superfluous. I see the whole point of the NT being a "new covenant", which is salvation by faith.

First of all Fenris, I really respect you. Your thinking is clear, reasoning is sound and knowledge of the scripture is thorough. This being said, I do disagree, but agreeably. There is a common thread through the OT and NT, and that is God's plan for bringing billions into His family. Jesus' sacrifice was not a stop gap measure, it was not a fix to a problem (Adam's sin) that caught God off guard. It was planned and God is never surprised...

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Fenris
Sep 7th 2011, 01:15 PM
First of all Fenris, I really respect you. Your thinking is clear, reasoning is sound and knowledge of the scripture is thorough.how very kind of you to say...


This being said, I do disagree, but agreeably. There is a common thread through the OT and NT, and that is God's plan for bringing billions into His family. Jesus' sacrifice was not a stop gap measure, it was not a fix to a problem (Adam's sin) that caught God off guard. It was planned and God is never surprised...I'm sorry, I don't see it. Again, if the "new covenant" doesn't change anything, the NT is superfluous. Only if it teaches a new message is it necessary.

MaryFreeman
Sep 9th 2011, 05:12 AM
how very kind of you to say... Wasn't it? I thought so....


I'm sorry, I don't see it. Again, if the "new covenant" doesn't change anything, the NT is superfluous. Only if it teaches a new message is it necessary.Why do you feel the NT doesn't teach a new message?

The OT has the Levitical law (I am preaching to the choir.... I know).... The NT (Especially Pauls letters)has the "law of liberty".... In other words.... We don't have to keep Levitical law but may go back in time.... If you will.... And live again by faith as Abraham did.... Only this time.... We have the Savior Jesus who "takes away the sin of the world".... Which Abraham didn't have.... There is something new there.... Several somethings.... But am I offering a derail? Perhaps this is a whole nother thread entirely :hmm:

LookingUp
Sep 9th 2011, 05:40 AM
Wasn't it? I thought so....
Why do you feel the NT doesn't teach a new message?

The OT has the Levitical law (I am preaching to the choir.... I know).... The NT (Especially Pauls letters)has the "law of liberty".... In other words.... We don't have to keep Levitical law but may go back in time.... If you will.... And live again by faith as Abraham did.... Only this time.... We have the Savior Jesus who "takes away the sin of the world".... Which Abraham didn't have.... There is something new there.... Several somethings.... But am I offering a derail? Perhaps this is a whole nother thread entirely :hmm:Hmm...interesting. "Go back in time." Funny...when a bunch of laws, rules are added, it certainly can influence one to...maybe even unintentionally, focus on the mistakes rather than focus on pushing forward...just keep moving toward the goal rather than looking at all the missed opportunities to hit the bulls eye.

MaryFreeman
Sep 9th 2011, 05:57 AM
Hmm...interesting. "Go back in time." Funny...when a bunch of laws, rules are added, it certainly can influence one to...maybe even unintentionally, focus on the mistakes rather than focus on pushing forward...just keep moving toward the goal rather than looking at all the missed opportunities to hit the bulls eye.Exactly...........................

BroRog
Sep 9th 2011, 07:58 AM
how very kind of you to say...
I'm sorry, I don't see it. Again, if the "new covenant" doesn't change anything, the NT is superfluous. Only if it teaches a new message is it necessary.The OT taught the people to anticipate a coming messiah. The NT teaches them that Jesus ben Joseph is also Jesus ben David, the son of God, the king of Israel.

Fenris
Sep 9th 2011, 10:11 AM
The OT taught the people to anticipate a coming messiah. The NT teaches them that Jesus ben Joseph is also Jesus ben David, the son of God, the king of Israel.It also teaches of a "new covenant" being applied, so something must have changed since Sinai.

Mark F
Sep 9th 2011, 11:05 AM
Colossians 1:24-27

24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

There is much change, and God always does things in a visable and "legal" way. For Abraham believed God would do something and he believed what God had told him, then in Jesus Christ God did it physically and legally for all the world and principalities and powers to see, He put Christ on display before all creation.

Now we must believe that all this was done for the reasons God said they were, and believe He has given us all that He has said is in Christ's provision for us.

You must believe that you need a Savior before you can ask Him to save you, most people will not admit that, thereby condemming themselves.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 01:33 PM
While some people may think that Paul invented the idea of salvation by faith, he argues his case from the book of Genesis, pointing out that God declared Abraham to be justified in view of his faith. Justification by faith is an OT concept.

Justification by belief is a fabrication based on a misunderstanding of the depth of the calling of God in Christ. One cannot justify oneself through their beliefs.

Remember Phinehas was also justified by God (same exact language used) for killing the idolators. He didn't justify himself. Neither did the people justify him. No, it was God Himself that justified him. So it is with Abraham.

Do we see a scheme where the act of believing justifies us? What is God's judgment?

So we are foolish to seek to justify ourselves for what we consider as faith before God. Even if we have the proof of God's help, encouragement, and blessings, still we should never draw the conclusion that we are just.

If we walk in the Spirit, we realize that the justification is not our own. We are walking IN it. And if we continue in that life till the end, then shall God justify us.

BroRog
Sep 9th 2011, 03:41 PM
It also teaches of a "new covenant" being applied, so something must have changed since Sinai.I know this is a common understanding amongst Christians, but I don't think the New Covenant is being applied yet. God however, through Paul, revealed that he was going to place Jesus Christ as the head over the entire assembly and that both Jews and Gentiles would share a common inheritance in him. The idea that the Gentiles would be included in the blessing of Abraham, i.e. eternal life through the Holy Spirit, Paul says, wasn't revealed to men but had been revealed to the Apostles and prophets in his time. And while many Christians misunderstand Paul to say that God nullified the law in order to create a new Gentile religion, Paul clearly states that Abraham is the father of those who have faith, whether they are circumcised or uncircumcised.

First he argues that Abraham was justified by his faith, not by his works.


Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

God declared Abraham, "righteous", or "justified" in view of Abraham's belief in God's promise. In view of his faith, righteousness was credited to him. Paul is arguing from the Decalogue because all Jews acknowledge the first five books of the Torah. And from the Torah, Paul argues that God was declaring the father of our faith, "righteous", or "justified" in view of his faith outside and apart from of the Mt Sinai Covenant. And he argues that if God is granting justification outside the Mt. Sinai Covenant to those of faith, then the Gentiles do not need to bring themselves under the Mt. Sinai Covenant in order to find justification from God. In other words, Paul isn't arguing that he and his kinsmen need to abandon the Mt. Sinai Covenant in order to find favor with God. But he and his kinsmen need to recognize that each of them must add faith to the covenant if they want to find approval from God.

Next, Paul makes the same argument from the poems of David,


6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered. 8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."


Then Paul argues that since God credits righteousness to those with a particular heart attitude, even in view of disobedience to the law as in the case of David, then God will credit righteousness to Gentiles who have the same attitude, even if they are not under the Mt. Sinai Covenant. In other words, whether a man is a dedicated, devout covenant keeper, or a man who is not part of that covenant, Abraham is the father of both groups.


9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

In another letter Paul asserts that although the middle wall of partition restricted access to the temple to Jews only, causing enmity between Jew and Gentile, the middle wall was removed, in a sense, through the Holy Spirit. Both Jew and Gentile gain access to God, not through a physical temple, but through the Spirit of God due to the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. It was the blood of Jesus that became the basis of reconciliation and the forgiveness of sins and Jew and Gentile alike have access to the father through the Holy Spirit. This is why Jesus refers to his crucifixion as the blood of the New Covenant. Jews also will gain access to God through the Holy Spirit in view of the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. Speaking to the church at Ephesus he writes,


But now, in Christ Jesus, you who were then afar became near by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, the one making all one, even having broken down the middle wall of partition (the enmity) with his flesh, having rendered inconsequential that law which was ordered by decree, in order that he might combine the two into one new humanity in himself, establishing peace, and that he might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, putting to death the enmity in himself, and coming preached peace to you – the far away ones – and peace to the near ones because through him we both have access to the father by one spirit.

So then, Paul argues from the Torah that the declaration from God, "justified" was being granted on the basis of faith. God declared Abraham "righteous" in view of his faith, and God declared David "forgiven" in view of David's contrition and honest self appraisal. And he argues, both Jew and Gentile will be declared "righteous" and "forgiven" on the same basis.

BroRog
Sep 9th 2011, 03:46 PM
Justification by belief is a fabrication based on a misunderstanding of the depth of the calling of God in Christ. One cannot justify oneself through their beliefs.Paul's view is not self-justification.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 04:29 PM
Paul's view is not self-justification.

But he is falsely understood to support this.

RogerW
Sep 9th 2011, 05:05 PM
We are NOT saved by our faith! Justification means to be declared righteous...we are saved by grace then declared righteous (justified) through faith. All the gift of God lest any man should boast. Salvation from regeneration to glorification is to be found in Christ alone! We are regenerated in Christ, we are justified in Christ, and we shall be glorified in Christ. So regeneration is not of our faith, justification is not of our faith, and glorification is not of our faith...but all the faith of Christ in us. Salvation is of the Lord, His work alone to regenerate, justify and glorify! Amen!

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 05:11 PM
We are NOT saved by our faith! Justification means to be declared righteous...we are saved by grace then declared righteous (justified) through faith. All the gift of God lest any man should boast. Salvation from regeneration to glorification is to be found in Christ alone! We are regenerated in Christ, we are justified in Christ, and we shall be glorified in Christ. So regeneration is not of our faith, justification is not of our faith, and glorification is not of our faith...but all the faith of Christ in us. Salvation is of the Lord, His work alone to regenerate, justify and glorify! Amen!

If we continue to abide in Christ then surely the promises of God will be ours. We are saved by CONTINUING in grace through faith.

RogerW
Sep 9th 2011, 05:17 PM
If we continue to abide in Christ then surely the promises of God will be ours. We are saved by CONTINUING in grace through faith.

How does one continue in grace? Grace is given by God, so we either possess God's grace or we do not...yes? If we have received God's grace we also possess the gift of faith in Christ created in us...no?

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 05:22 PM
How does one continue in grace? Grace is given by God, so we either possess God's grace or we do not...yes? If we have received God's grace we also possess the gift of faith in Christ created in us...no?

So you are advocating the uselessness of faithfulness and the futility of exhortation for all Christians?

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 05:23 PM
How does one continue in grace? Grace is given by God, so we either possess God's grace or we do not...yes? If we have received God's grace we also possess the gift of faith in Christ created in us...no?

Agreed.. grace isn't given partially.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 05:28 PM
Agreed.. grace isn't given partially.

So we can't frustrate the grace of God?

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 05:34 PM
So we can't frustrate the grace of God?

Frustrate the grace, or frustrate God?

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 05:42 PM
Frustrate the grace, or frustrate God?

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal 2:21

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 05:48 PM
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal 2:21

I believe what he was saying there is that he cannot just set grace aside and gain righteousness through the law. If so, then Christ died in vain.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 05:51 PM
I believe what he was saying there is that he cannot just set grace aside and gain righteousness through the law. If so, then Christ died in vain.

It means what the rest of the teachings are saying. If we walk as other men in our own strength then we are frustrating the provision of God to make us like Jesus. If we walk in the Spirit then we will overcome sin, the world, and the devil. Then in our case the death of Christ would not have been in vain.

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 05:54 PM
It means what the rest of the teachings are saying. If we walk as other men in our own strength then we are frustrating the provision of God to make us like Jesus. If we walk in the Spirit then we will overcome sin, the world, and the devil. Then in our case the death of Christ would not have been in vain.

Whether you live by your own strength or by the Spirit, in either case, Christ did not die in vain. There is no changing that no matter how anyone lives.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 05:58 PM
Whether you live by your own strength or by the Spirit, in either case, Christ did not die in vain. There is no changing that no matter how anyone lives.

But it concerns us whether we are partakers of the promises or not. So salvation is conditional to our remaining faithful. That is what the bible teaches from cover to cover.

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 06:02 PM
But it concerns us whether we are partakers of the promises or not. So salvation is conditional to our remaining faithful. That is what the bible teaches from cover to cover.

Partakers of which promises? We can only partake based on our measure of faith.

"For through the grace given to me I say to every one among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." - Romans 12:3

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 06:09 PM
Partakers of which promises? We can only partake based on our measure of faith.

"For through the grace given to me I say to every one among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." - Romans 12:3

Partake of what?

RogerW
Sep 9th 2011, 06:19 PM
But it concerns us whether we are partakers of the promises or not. So salvation is conditional to our remaining faithful. That is what the bible teaches from cover to cover.

If salvation is conditioned on our faithfulness...who then can be saved? Is it not true that salvation is of grace, and since of grace not of our work of faith?

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 06:23 PM
If salvation is conditioned on our faithfulness...who then can be saved? Is it not true that salvation is of grace, and since of grace not of our work of faith?

Grace is there to strengthen our resolve; to make us able to remain faithful. So yes, we partake of grace in order to remain pleasing to God at all times. When we look to God, we are strengthened.

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 06:23 PM
If salvation is conditioned on our faithfulness...who then can be saved? Is it not true that salvation is of grace, and since of grace not of our work of faith?

grace and faith are given and not earned. Paul makes that pretty clear. He saw that people were thinking a little too highly of themselves.

"For through the grace given to me I say to every one among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." - Romans 12:3

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 06:27 PM
grace and faith are given and not earned. Paul makes that pretty clear. He saw that people were thinking a little too highly of themselves.

"For through the grace given to me I say to every one among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." - Romans 12:3

So then justification is not of ourselves either. We must wait for the final judgment from God to determine how we have done with what we have been given.

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 06:36 PM
So then justification is not of ourselves either. We must wait for the final judgment from God to determine how we have done with what we have been given.

we were saved from the penalty of sin (justification) by the grace given to us through Christ. We can't work in order to obtain that either.
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." - Romans 3 :23, 24

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 06:39 PM
we were saved from the penalty of sin (justification) by the grace given to us through Christ. We can't work in order to obtain that either.
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." - Romans 3 :23, 24

So then grace removes the penalty for sin? We can sin now with immunity against any responsibility for our own actions? God has nullified His holiness in order to save His favourite sinners?

RogerW
Sep 9th 2011, 06:39 PM
Grace is there to strengthen our resolve; to make us able to remain faithful. So yes, we partake of grace in order to remain pleasing to God at all times. When we look to God, we are strengthened.

We're back to my first question...how does one partake of grace in order to remain pleasing to God? God has either extended His grace to us or He has not...yes? If we have been saved by grace will our weak faith cast us from the Kingdom of God?

RogerW
Sep 9th 2011, 06:40 PM
So then justification is not of ourselves either. We must wait for the final judgment from God to determine how we have done with what we have been given.

So ultimately we are NOT saved by grace, but according to our faithfulness???

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 06:42 PM
We're back to my first question...how does one partake of grace in order to remain pleasing to God? God has either extended His grace to us or He has not...yes? If we have been saved by grace will our weak faith cast us from the Kingdom of God?

We are BEING saved by grace. Grace is the tool that we use to be obedient to God. Grace is His power in us to do HIS will. So grace is the process that God has ordained in Christ in order for us to fulfill all righteousness. His righteousness in US to fulfill the miraculous works He has envisioned as a continuation of His Son's ministry here on earth.

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 06:43 PM
So then grace removes the penalty for sin? We can sin now with immunity against any responsibility for our own actions? God has nullified His holiness in order to save His favourite sinners?

I could just post the entire chapter of Romans 6 here. but i will just post the first 4 verses.

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 06:45 PM
So ultimately we are NOT saved by grace, but according to our faithfulness???

Grace is only properly used to produce faithfulness. Otherwise we are under severe judgment. Find anywhere it is written that we will be judged by grace. So we are helped to be faithful by His gift of grace. We will be judged according to our faithfulness. If we aren't faithful even though we were recipients of grace...we are ready to be thrown on the dungheap.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 06:47 PM
I could just post the entire chapter of Romans 6 here. but i will just post the first 4 verses.

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

This does not say we are immune from the penalty of sin. The penalty of sin will always remain. Rather, we become saved away from our sins so that we no longer commit them. We are too busy walking like Jesus! :)

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 06:48 PM
We are BEING saved by grace. Grace is the tool that we use to be obedient to God. Grace is His power in us to do HIS will. So grace is the process that God has ordained in Christ in order for us to fulfill all righteousness. His righteousness in US to fulfill the miraculous works He has envisioned as a continuation of His Son's ministry here on earth.

I think you have limited view of being saved and what Christ actually did and is currently doing for us.

1. I have been saved from the pleasure of sin (repentance & conviction)
2. I was saved from the penalty of sin (justification)
3. I am being saved from the power of sin (sanctification)
4. I will be saved from the presence of sin (glorification)

So your BEING saved is in that list.

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 06:55 PM
This does not say we are immune from the penalty of sin. The penalty of sin will always remain. Rather, we become saved away from our sins so that we no longer commit them. We are too busy walking like Jesus! :)

If we can get to the point that we no longer commit sin, then why then does Jesus need to be our advocate?
Do you dare want to go to judgement and go against the accuser (satan) and hope that you eventually got it right? Not I, and I am thankful that Jesus is the one defending me.

1 "My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin: but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

RogerW
Sep 9th 2011, 06:57 PM
We are BEING saved by grace. Grace is the tool that we use to be obedient to God. Grace is His power in us to do HIS will. So grace is the process that God has ordained in Christ in order for us to fulfill all righteousness. His righteousness in US to fulfill the miraculous works He has envisioned as a continuation of His Son's ministry here on earth.

Grace is the Divine influence upon our spiritually dead hearts that makes us (sinners) acceptable before God. Grace of God is not a tool we use, it is of God alone, Who extends His grace to whosoever He will. By grace we ARE saved, and by that same grace we are declared righteous (justified) in Christ alone. Once we have been saved we are called to work out (not for) our salvation (we possess when we are born again of the Spirit) with fear and trembling because God is working in us to both will and do of His good pleasure. Grace is Divine favor upon the heart, and justification is to be declared righteous in Christ according to His grace.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 06:57 PM
I think you have limited view of being saved and what Christ actually did and is currently doing for us.

1. I have been saved from the pleasure of sin (repentance & conviction)
2. I was saved from the penalty of sin (justification)
3. I am being saved from the power of sin (sanctification)
4. I will be saved from the presence of sin (glorification)

So your BEING saved is in that list.

But we live in the now, not the past or future. To say I will be saved is wrong. We have a living hope (long term faith). But it remains a hope until it comes to pass. A person can believe anything they like. But to remain grounded in the truth, one must subject one's ways to God and to what is actually recorded in the word.

God has saved me many times. If I extrapolate that into the future it is a hope that I will continue to be saved into the future.

It is simply wrong to declare one's own glory.

LookingUp
Sep 9th 2011, 06:59 PM
I know this is a common understanding amongst Christians, but I don't think the New Covenant is being applied yet. God however, through Paul, revealed that he was going to place Jesus Christ as the head over the entire assembly and that both Jews and Gentiles would share a common inheritance in him. The idea that the Gentiles would be included in the blessing of Abraham, i.e. eternal life through the Holy Spirit, Paul says, wasn't revealed to men but had been revealed to the Apostles and prophets in his time. And while many Christians misunderstand Paul to say that God nullified the law in order to create a new Gentile religion, Paul clearly states that Abraham is the father of those who have faith, whether they are circumcised or uncircumcised.

First he argues that Abraham was justified by his faith, not by his works.


Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

God declared Abraham, "righteous", or "justified" in view of Abraham's belief in God's promise. In view of his faith, righteousness was credited to him. Paul is arguing from the Decalogue because all Jews acknowledge the first five books of the Torah. And from the Torah, Paul argues that God was declaring the father of our faith, "righteous", or "justified" in view of his faith outside and apart from of the Mt Sinai Covenant. And he argues that if God is granting justification outside the Mt. Sinai Covenant to those of faith, then the Gentiles do not need to bring themselves under the Mt. Sinai Covenant in order to find justification from God. In other words, Paul isn't arguing that he and his kinsmen need to abandon the Mt. Sinai Covenant in order to find favor with God. But he and his kinsmen need to recognize that each of them must add faith to the covenant if they want to find approval from God.

Next, Paul makes the same argument from the poems of David,


6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered. 8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."


Then Paul argues that since God credits righteousness to those with a particular heart attitude, even in view of disobedience to the law as in the case of David, then God will credit righteousness to Gentiles who have the same attitude, even if they are not under the Mt. Sinai Covenant. In other words, whether a man is a dedicated, devout covenant keeper, or a man who is not part of that covenant, Abraham is the father of both groups.


9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

In another letter Paul asserts that although the middle wall of partition restricted access to the temple to Jews only, causing enmity between Jew and Gentile, the middle wall was removed, in a sense, through the Holy Spirit. Both Jew and Gentile gain access to God, not through a physical temple, but through the Spirit of God due to the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. It was the blood of Jesus that became the basis of reconciliation and the forgiveness of sins and Jew and Gentile alike have access to the father through the Holy Spirit. This is why Jesus refers to his crucifixion as the blood of the New Covenant. Jews also will gain access to God through the Holy Spirit in view of the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. Speaking to the church at Ephesus he writes,


But now, in Christ Jesus, you who were then afar became near by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, the one making all one, even having broken down the middle wall of partition (the enmity) with his flesh, having rendered inconsequential that law which was ordered by decree, in order that he might combine the two into one new humanity in himself, establishing peace, and that he might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, putting to death the enmity in himself, and coming preached peace to you – the far away ones – and peace to the near ones because through him we both have access to the father by one spirit.

So then, Paul argues from the Torah that the declaration from God, "justified" was being granted on the basis of faith. God declared Abraham "righteous" in view of his faith, and God declared David "forgiven" in view of David's contrition and honest self appraisal. And he argues, both Jew and Gentile will be declared "righteous" and "forgiven" on the same basis.Excellent post.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 07:01 PM
Grace is the Divine influence upon our spiritually dead hearts that makes us (sinners) acceptable before God. Grace of God is not a tool we use, it is of God alone, Who extends His grace to whosoever He will. By grace we ARE saved, and by that same grace we are declared righteous (justified) in Christ alone. Once we have been saved we are called to work out (not for) our salvation (we possess when we are born again of the Spirit) with fear and trembling because God is working in us to both will and do of His good pleasure. Grace is Divine favor upon the heart, and justification is to be declared righteous in Christ according to His grace.

You are ignoring the process here. We are not made acceptable because of grace. We are freely given grace because our petition was acceptable...or His work of repentance has prepared us to receive this grace.

Grace is the power of a new life. If we do not trust God and grow in this life we frustrate the grace He has placed in us. If we don't bear fruit then we will still be rejected.

It is backwards to think we are justified through a gift He has given us.

Noonzie
Sep 9th 2011, 07:02 PM
But we live in the now, not the past or future. To say I will be saved is wrong. We have a living hope (long term faith). But it remains a hope until it comes to pass. A person can believe anything they like. But to remain grounded in the truth, one must subject one's ways to God and to what is actually recorded in the word.

God has saved me many times. If I extrapolate that into the future it is a hope that I will continue to be saved into the future.

It is simply wrong to declare one's own glory.

It's Christ's glory, not my own.

It's simply wrong to think you can earn salvation which gives you glory.

RogerW
Sep 9th 2011, 07:04 PM
Grace is only properly used to produce faithfulness. Otherwise we are under severe judgment. Find anywhere it is written that we will be judged by grace. So we are helped to be faithful by His gift of grace. We will be judged according to our faithfulness. If we aren't faithful even though we were recipients of grace...we are ready to be thrown on the dungheap.

Then you are of the belief that one may fall from grace? If that is true then grace really does not make us acceptable before God after all...does it? Therefore we can't really affirm Paul's words when he tells us we are saved by grace through faith, and this the gift of God...correct?

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 07:06 PM
Then you are of the belief that one may fall from grace? If that is true then grace really does not make us acceptable before God after all...does it? Therefore we can't really affirm Paul's words when he tells us we are saved by grace through faith, and this the gift of God...correct?

We are saved by grace through faith (faithfulness). That is the purpose of the gift. We are empowered to do what God wishes. We are justified by doing what we are supposed to do.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 07:17 PM
The way that Paul is misunderstood....had Paul used Phinehas to describe righteousness by faith, then the church would be filled with mass murderers.

RogerW
Sep 9th 2011, 07:24 PM
We are saved by grace through faith (faithfulness). That is the purpose of the gift. We are empowered to do what God wishes. We are justified by doing what we are supposed to do.

The whole passage says we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of yourselves: the gift of God. Faith too is part and parcel for salvation. Not my faithfulness, but through faith means God by grace persuaded me of the faithfulness of Christ working in me, making me rely upon Christ for my salvation. Thus granting me acceptance before God and everlasting life in His Kingdom. If life I am given in Christ is not forever it could not be called everlasting life...could it?

RogerW
Sep 9th 2011, 07:29 PM
We are saved by grace through faith (faithfulness). That is the purpose of the gift. We are empowered to do what God wishes. We are justified by doing what we are supposed to do.

Eph*2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith here is not expressing fallen man's faithfulness. Faith is pistis persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Faith unto salvation is created in us by His grace, and this faith is not our work, but the work of Christ applied through the power of the Holy
Spirit.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 07:31 PM
The whole passage says we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of yourselves: the gift of God. Faith too is part and parcel for salvation. Not my faithfulness, but through faith means God by grace persuaded me of the faithfulness of Christ working in me, making me rely upon Christ for my salvation. Thus granting me acceptance before God and everlasting life in His Kingdom. If life I am given in Christ is not forever it could not be called everlasting life...could it?

Correct!

But that eternal life begins now...by grace through faith. As we walk in that new power we see as Jesus sees and we behave as a saint. Since we will be judged by our behaviour in any regard, that judgment will be very positive as the works were wrought IN the Lord. So we will reign with Christ.

We are not accepted into the kingdom by grace. God has absolutely no favourites. We are made worthy of the kingdom by the outcome of grace within us, which IF we walk in it, will produce the righteousness of Christ in us.

Salvation is freely given to those who call upon the Lord and turn to Him. No one arbitrarily receives the gift of salvation. Although God will decide on whom He will have mercy. But to declare that one has been arbitrarily saved goes against the doctrine of grace.
If God gives a man a gift, He will expect MORE from him...not less. No gift of God makes a man not (or less) responsible for his own behaviour. That should be evident.

MaryFreeman
Sep 9th 2011, 07:33 PM
We are saved by grace through faith (faithfulness). That is the purpose of the gift. We are empowered to do what God wishes. We are justified by doing what we are supposed to do.Faith and faithfulness are two different things....

Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing, a belief not built on physical proof.... We walk by faith and not by sight (2 Cor. 5:7)....

Faithfulness is strictness or thouroughness in the performance of duty.... Being true to vows and promises.... We are not saved because we did our job right.... That is salvation by works.... And at that time we would have the right to boast.... And yet God will not share His glory with any other.... Which means we are saved by Grace (Gods UNMERITED favor) through faith (believing WITHOUT seeing).... It is the gift of God.... Not anything we did....

Now justification is a whole nother thing.... Even if your works do not justify you.... God will not be unfaithful to Himself and His word.... You won't gain the reward you should gain.... And you are relegated to the sidelines.... But salvation and justification are two different things.... They do however come about the same way....

For most of us.... We do the things we do because we have faith in the One who wants us to do them.... The tither tithes and the giver sows seed because we believe (even though we cannot see it YET) that God supplies the seed for the sower and will rebuke the devourer.... We witness to others about Jesus because we truly believe we are saved even though we haven't yet made it to the full manifestation of our salvation.... In other words.... We do the things we do not to be saved but because we are saved.... And we do them through faith.... Just as we are saved through faith because of or by Gods unmerited favor.... All we are doing with our works is showing our Loving Father that His investment was worth it.... Even if we don't quite hit the mark lol....

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 07:46 PM
=MaryFreeman;2739735

Faith and faithfulness are two different things....

Not according to the bible. They are interlocked into one word (Emounah in Hebrew) (Pistis in Greek)


Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing, a belief not built on physical proof.... We walk by faith and not by sight (2 Cor. 5:7)....

The result of this is called faithfulness


Faithfulness is strictness or thouroughness in the performance of duty.... Being true to vows and promises.... We are not saved because we did our job right.... That is salvation by works.... And at that time we would have the right to boast.... And yet God will not share His glory with any other.... Which means we are saved by Grace (Gods UNMERITED favor) through faith (believing WITHOUT seeing).... It is the gift of God.... Not anything we did....

We are being saved by His grace (power) but we will be judged by our works (faithfulness) any other rendering is to go exactly against biblical teaching. A man is given a shovel to dig a ditch. He will not be judged by his shovel but on whether he dug it or not. Can you dig it? ;)


Now justification is a whole nother thing.... Even if your works do not justify you.... God will not be unfaithful to Himself and His word.... You won't gain the reward you should gain.... And you are relegated to the sidelines.... But salvation and justification are two different things.... They do however come about the same way....

huh?


For most of us.... We do the things we do because we have faith in the One who wants us to do them.... The tither tithes and the giver sows seed because we believe (even though we cannot see it YET) that God supplies the seed for the sower and will rebuke the devourer.... We witness to others about Jesus because we truly believe we are saved even though we haven't yet made it to the full manifestation of our salvation.... In other words.... We do the things we do not to be saved but because we are saved.... And we do them through faith.... Just as we are saved through faith because of or by Gods unmerited favor.... All we are doing with our works is showing our Loving Father that His investment was worth it.... Even if we don't quite hit the mark lol....

We also have religious conditioning that if we behave and listen to the religious people we will live and be saved.

MaryFreeman
Sep 9th 2011, 08:23 PM
Not according to the bible. They are interlocked into one word (Emounah in Hebrew) (Pistis in Greek)

H530
אמנה אמוּנה
'ĕmûnâh 'ĕmûnâh
em-oo-naw', em-oo-naw'
Feminine of H529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity: - faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

H539
אמן
'âman
aw-man'
A primitive root; properly to build up or support; to foster as a parent or nurse; figuratively to render (or be) firm or faithful, to trust or believe, to be permanent or quiet; morally to be true or certain; once (in Isa_30:21; by interchange for H541) to go to the right hand: - hence assurance, believe, bring up, establish, + fail, be faithful (of long continuance, stedfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurse, (-ing father), (put), trust, turn to the right.

G4102
πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Now you have to have a VERY loose interpretation of these two (or three if you don't combine the two Hebrew.... As they mean the same thing).... What you are relying on is the definition that fits what you are saying.... Not the definition that the text is showing.... It has to make sense.... If we walk by faithfulness (the things we do) and are confident in our salvation because of our faithfulness (the things we do) then we haven't received a free gift that is a result of Gods grace (unmerited favor).... Which makes Paul one of the filthiest liars to come down the pike.... I would much rather believe that salvation does not come to us because of the things we do.... Because if it does not.... Jesus went through one of the most horrid deaths in human history for nothing....

It makes sense and does not offend the doctrine of Grace and the sacrifice of Christ to say that faith (pistis)means persuasion.... Which is to say that we are saved by Gods unmerited favor when we are persuaded to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation even though we cannot see him or the full manifestation of our salvation yet....


The result of this is called faithfulness
Which does not produce salvation.... Salvation produces it....



We are being saved by His grace (power) but we will be judged by our works (faithfulness) any other rendering is to go exactly against biblical teaching. A man is given a shovel to dig a ditch. He will not be judged by his shovel but on whether he dug it or not. Can you dig it? ;)
Well.... That was cute.... But really.... I think my point is being missed.... We are not subject to judgment as far as deciding whether or not to punish us for our actions.... The judgment believers go through is commonly known as the bema or judgment seat of Christ.... Which is different from the great white throne judgment.... But that is a whole nother thread entirely.... Suffice it to say that our works will be judged on their quality.... Gold and silver and gems.... Wood and hay and stubble.... Yet we will be saved regardless.... Some of us just suffer loss.... You can find this in 1 Cor. 3:12....

So as I said.... Salvation and justification are two different things.... Those who suffer loss are still saved.... They just aren't justified as well as would have been appreciated....



huh? See above....




We also have religious conditioning that if we behave and listen to the religious people we will live and be saved.And that religious conditioning will religiously condition people right into the lake of fire.... Jesus said "I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. No man comes to the Father but by Me."It doesn't matter what people tell you.... It will not give you life and it will not save you.... You believe in Jesus.... You have faith in Him as your Lord and Savior.... THAT is what gives you life and THAT is what saves you....

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 08:24 PM
Just as we are saved through faith because of or by Gods unmerited favor....

Grace is not unmerited favour. How many declared "if I have FOUND favour in your eyes!"

Mercy is often confused with grace. Mercy is an unmerited favour. But grace is a latent power in they who have been born from above. We have access to the very throne of God. But we will be judged the harder for it. What have we become with this power? What have we done?

MaryFreeman
Sep 9th 2011, 08:31 PM
Just as we are saved through faith because of or by Gods unmerited favor....

Grace is not unmerited favour. How many declared "if I have FOUND favour in your eyes!"

Mercy is often confused with grace. Mercy is an unmerited favour. But grace is a latent power in they who have been born from above. We have access to the very throne of God. But we will be judged the harder for it. What have we become with this power? What have we done?Wow you read fast.... The websters dictionary definition of Grace is indeed UNMERITED favor....

Definition of GRACE
1a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
2a : approval, favor <stayed in his good graces> b archaic : mercy, pardon c : a special favor : privilege <each in his place, by right, not grace, shall rule his heritage — Rudyard Kipling> d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency e : a temporary exemption : reprieve
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grace
The grace God shows us is indeed unmerited favor.... Or approval that we did not earn.... His mercy is His grace.... His grace is a pardon.... A special favor we did not have the right to and did nothing to gain....

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 08:34 PM
H530
אמנה אמוּנה
'ĕmûnâh 'ĕmûnâh
em-oo-naw', em-oo-naw'
Feminine of H529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity: - faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

H539
אמן
'âman
aw-man'
A primitive root; properly to build up or support; to foster as a parent or nurse; figuratively to render (or be) firm or faithful, to trust or believe, to be permanent or quiet; mo

rally to be true or certain; once (in Isa_30:21; by interchange for H541) to go to the right hand: - hence assurance, believe, bring up, establish, + fail, be faithful (of long continuance, stedfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurse, (-ing father), (put), trust, turn to the right.

G4102
πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Now you have to have a VERY loose interpretation of these two (or three if you don't combine the two Hebrew.... As they mean the same thing).... What you are relying on is the definition that fits what you are saying.... Not the definition that the text is showing.... It has to make sense.... If we walk by faithfulness (the things we do) and are confident in our salvation because of our faithfulness (the things we do) then we haven't received a free gift that is a result of Gods grace (unmerited favor).... Which makes Paul one of the filthiest liars to come down the pike.... I would much rather believe that salvation does not come to us because of the things we do.... Because if it does not.... Jesus went through one of the most horrid deaths in human history for nothing....

It makes sense and does not offend the doctrine of Grace and the sacrifice of Christ to say that faith (pistis)means persuasion.... Which is to say that we are saved by Gods unmerited favor when we are persuaded to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation even though we cannot see him or the full manifestation of our salvation yet....
Which does not produce salvation.... Salvation produces it....

Well.... That was cute.... But really.... I think my point is being missed.... We are not subject to judgment as far as deciding whether or not to punish us for our actions.... The judgment believers go through is commonly known as the bema or judgment seat of Christ.... Which is different from the great white throne judgment.... But that is a whole nother thread entirely.... Suffice it to say that our works will be judged on their quality.... Gold and silver and gems.... Wood and hay and stubble.... Yet we will be saved regardless.... Some of us just suffer loss.... You can find this in 1 Cor. 3:12....

So as I said.... Salvation and justification are two different things.... Those who suffer loss are still saved.... They just aren't justified as well as would have been appreciated....

See above....


And that religious conditioning will religiously condition people right into the lake of fire.... Jesus said "I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. No man comes to the Father but by Me."It doesn't matter what people tell you.... It will not give you life and it will not save you.... You believe in Jesus.... You have faith in Him as your Lord and Savior.... THAT is what gives you life and THAT is what saves you....

This is getting unwieldly here! :)

Just a few points. You can see that emounah and pistis both mean faithfulness as well as faith. We are justified by faithfulness. The just will walk in his faithfulness. That is how we can read the bible.

What of faith? Faith is an immediate act. You can't walk in a continual faith. But you can be solid in faithfulness.

We are not saved by one act that cancels out all we will ever do. At least WE cannot claim that judgment for ourselves.

When we receive Christ we are measured afterwards by our faithfulness to Him. A miracle here and there doesn't make up for a bad character and unruly behaviour.

So Paul was explaining a new life and a walk in supernatural empowerment (grace) which is the divine faculty of a new nature. That is HOW we walk...or at least how the early church was taught to walk. What we are taught now....well, let's just say there is very little faith going on.

episkopos
Sep 9th 2011, 08:47 PM
Wow you read fast.... The websters dictionary definition of Grace is indeed UNMERITED favor....

Definition of GRACE
1a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
2a : approval, favor <stayed in his good graces> b archaic : mercy, pardon c : a special favor : privilege <each in his place, by right, not grace, shall rule his heritage — Rudyard Kipling> d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency e : a temporary exemption : reprieve
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grace
The grace God shows us is indeed unmerited favor.... Or approval that we did not earn.... His mercy is His grace.... His grace is a pardon.... A special favor we did not have the right to and did nothing to gain....

The Merriam dictionary cannot be responsible for the definition of a word that contradicts the bible. One must be careful to understand the bible through the Spirit. If I am looking for the true church, do I turn to the yellow pages and look under "true church"?

So while men might extend unmerited favour (like when you're losing at cards and you get a grace turn) and call it grace...the bible is on a whole other level.

If you look at a concordance you will get a better definition like "Divine empowerment or faculty"
The Greek word for grace is of the same root as the gifts of the Spirit. Are we saved by tongues?

MaryFreeman
Sep 9th 2011, 09:35 PM
This is getting unwieldly here! :)

Just a few points. You can see that emounah and pistis both mean faithfulness as well as faith. We are justified by faithfulness. The just will walk in his faithfulness. That is how we can read the bible.
Ok I will say it in a less unwieldy way.... The definition you use MUST make sense in the sentance you use it in.... In the case of being saved by grace through faith it makes sense to see grace as unmerited favor.... Which is indeed its literal meaning.... When you do that faith takes on its sensible meaning.... Which is not faithfulness.... It is believing without seeing.... So we are not saved by our faithfulness.... Rather we are justified by our faithfulness.... Or we aren't justified but we are still saved.... We are saved because God had mercy on us and extended a special pardon or favor even though we did nothing to gain it.... And we took it....


What of faith? Faith is an immediate act. You can't walk in a continual faith. But you can be solid in faithfulness.
I just showed you that faith and faithfulness are not the same.... Faith is a noun and faithfulness is a verb....
Walking by faith instead of sight is the very definition of believing without seeing.... Which has nothing to do with keeping your word.... It does not make literal sense to say we walk in our faithfulness instead of by sight.... If that is what Paul had meant then he would have said faithfulness.... But any translation you use says FAITH.... Because that is the definition that makes common sense when used in the context of the sentance.... So we walk by Who we believe in even though we cannot see Him and not by what we can see all around us....

When Paul used faith in the verse that states we are saved by grace he did not mean we are saved by Gods power that was activated by what we do.... That doesn't make literal sense because the definition of grace is not power.... It is unmerited favor....


We are not saved by one act that cancels out all we will ever do. At least WE cannot claim that judgment for ourselves.

Um....

Joh 3:16-17 LITV
(16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

And don't forget:

1Jn 1:7-9 LITV
(7) But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of His Son Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


When we receive Christ we are measured afterwards by our faithfulness to Him. A miracle here and there doesn't make up for a bad character and unruly behaviour.
Again though.... We are measured for reward and not punishment.... Still and all.... If we are truly saved and walking with the Lord.... We aren't going to have bad charicters and unruly behavior....


So Paul was explaining a new life and a walk in supernatural empowerment (grace) which is the divine faculty of a new nature. That is HOW we walk...or at least how the early church was taught to walk. What we are taught now....well, let's just say there is very little faith going on.Grace once more is unmerited favor.... I know that we are empowered to walk by faith and not sight.... But like I said.... There is a difference between salvation by grace alone through faith (believing in the unseen).... And justification by faithfulness (the things we have done during our walk of faith)....

MaryFreeman
Sep 9th 2011, 09:53 PM
The Merriam dictionary cannot be responsible for the definition of a word that contradicts the bible. One must be careful to understand the bible through the Spirit. If I am looking for the true church, do I turn to the yellow pages and look under "true church"?

So while men might extend unmerited favour (like when you're losing at cards and you get a grace turn) and call it grace...the bible is on a whole other level.

If you look at a concordance you will get a better definition like "Divine empowerment or faculty"
The Greek word for grace is of the same root as the gifts of the Spirit. Are we saved by tongues?It is NOT going against the bible to call grace what it is episkopos.... I don't know where you get that.... But telling someone that grace is NOT what it is and is instead something it is NOT .... IS going against all biblical teaching....
I did look at the Greek word for grace as is used in context by Paul.... And Merriam Webster is consistant with the definition of the Greek word "charis".... Translated grace.... And nowhere in that definition is "Divine empowerment or faculty" found!

G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

This is yet another instance of using the loosest translation possible no matter where it is found to fit ones doctrine.... Doctrine must fit scripture.... It is not the other way around....

To make sense with the word grace as Paul used it in Ephesians 2:8 you CANNOT do that.... You MUST find the definition of the word grace that FITS the context of the passage you are reading....

Because like I said.... If you don't you get a salvation by works doctrine.... Which is a sin and a lie.... It puts the burden of obtaining ones salvation on the one seeking it instead of on the One who offers it.... And if that is so then Jesus was beaten beyond recognition.... Stripped of flesh and clothing.... Whipped with a roman cat o nine til there was literally no part of his body that was not touched.... And then hung on a device so cruel a word had to be created to describe its pain (excruciating).... For absolutely nothing.... Because apparently we can save ourselves....

How utterly offensive.... What a cruel and ugly god to put his own son through that for kicks and giggles....

Neanias
Sep 9th 2011, 10:26 PM
Because like I said.... If you don't you get a salvation by works doctrine.... Which is a sin and a lie.... It puts the burden of obtaining ones salvation on the one seeking it instead of on the One who offers it.... And if that is so then Jesus was beaten beyond recognition.... Stripped of flesh and clothing.... Whipped with a roman cat o nine til there was literally no part of his body that was not touched.... And then hung on a device so cruel a word had to be created to describe its pain (excruciating).... For absolutely nothing.... Because apparently we can save ourselves....

It's not that we can save ourselves! It's that Christ through his death did acquire grace. And though grace is received as unmerited favor, that is not what it is itself. ie If I give a man money for NOTHING, that's unmerited 'favor' to him, in a carnal sense, but money in itself is not unmerited favor, rather the fact he received it is. Money is still money. And so it is with grace.

We cannot save ourselves, but by the death and ressurection of Christ, we have become a new creation. Through the Spirit, we can put to death the deeds of the flesh. Christ died to pay the price for the power to overcome as he did. Thus, he is both the one who paid the price, and the example to follow, that we might be overcomers as he is. Yet not ourselves, but him through us!

Otherwise the kingdom would be in word! But it is not, it is in power!

MaryFreeman
Sep 9th 2011, 10:36 PM
It's not that we can save ourselves! It's that Christ through his death did acquire grace. And though grace is received as unmerited favor, that is not what it is itself. ie If I give a man money for NOTHING, that's unmerited 'favor' to him, in a carnal sense, but money in itself is not unmerited favor, rather the fact he received it is. Money is still money. And so it is with grace. Grace is an action dear one.... You had mercy on this man and afforded him the grace to help in time of need.... In salvation.... That grace is not salvation itself.... Gods unmerited favor to bestow salvation upon us is the action He took.... To be met with an equal action.... Faith.... Accepting by faith the salvation offered from grace.... I am confounded at the confusion where it is really quite simple to understand.... If grace is not unmerited favor as the greek word says it is and as Paul used it.... And as Merriam Webster uses it.... But hold on.... It is.... They agree with each other....

Here is the thing though.... Just as in your money analogy.... Grace is what God had on us and what caused Him to offer salvation.... Salvation is salvation.... It is not the unmerited favor but rather that which was offered by the One who has bestowed the unmerited favor....




We cannot save ourselves, but by the death and ressurection of Christ, we have become a new creation. Through the Spirit, we can put to death the deeds of the flesh. Christ died to pay the price for the power to overcome as he did. Thus, he is both the one who paid the price, and the example to follow, that we might be overcomers as he is. Yet not ourselves, but him through us!
You are interchanging grace and power.... They are not the same.... Just like grace and salvation aren't.... It is by the Grace of God that we obtain the strength to do all things.... Because we do them through Christ who gives us strength.... Or power if you will.... Grace is what motivates Him to do this.... Why is this so hard to get?


Otherwise the kingdom would be in word! But it is not, it is in power! What????? Are you talking about kid? The topic of the thread is Justification by faith.... But people are getting justification mixed up with salvation.... I attempted to clear that up.... And now we are on what grace is and what grace is not....

:huh:

Neanias
Sep 9th 2011, 10:52 PM
You said it yourself, if through grace we are given strength... Then by grace we are empowered. Grace cannot be merely unmerited favor, otherwise, unmerited favor labors, does that make any sense?

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

The unmerited favor labored????? Grace is what empowers man to respond to the call of God.

2 Corinthians 8:7
But as you abound in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all diligence, and in your love for us—see that you abound in this grace also.

Abound in unmerited favor????? And yet the Lord says favor is deceitfull, and he is no respecter of persons. No, grace, the power of God in us, saves through our faithfulness.

We are not saved nor justified by unmerited favor, otherwise God is a respecter of persons, we are justified by faithfulness. Grace is the power to change us, faithfulness means you trust God and stick to it, even when you don't see it.

Otherwise we're making Jesus into a scape goat we can hind behind and his gospel we make powerless, and of justification by respect of persons. And we basically say 'to whom much is given, nothing is expected (cause it's all unmerited favor), and to who little is given, well there's no hope for him.'

MaryFreeman
Sep 9th 2011, 11:23 PM
You said it yourself, if through grace we are given strength... Then by grace we are empowered. Grace cannot be merely unmerited favor, otherwise, unmerited favor labors, does that make any sense? No.... It does not make sense at all.... This is what I have been trying to show you.... Are you reading my posts?


1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

The unmerited favor labored????? Grace is what empowers man to respond to the call of God. Go back to the money analogy.... Money is money.... It isn't the grace a person has on another.... It is what a person is motivated by grace to give another.... GRACE is what motivates God to EMPOWER us.... If indeed He does EMPOWER us to respond to His call.... I am trying to figure out what I am not saying.... Or why it is so hard to grasp that grace is not the empowerment but the motivation behind it.... Just as in the money analogy....


2 Corinthians 8:7
But as you abound in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all diligence, and in your love for us—see that you abound in this grace also.

Abound in unmerited favor????? And yet the Lord says favor is deceitfull, and he is no respecter of persons. No, grace, the power of God in us, saves through our faithfulness. The favor OF MEN is deceitfull.... I didn't say God is a respecter of persons.... I said He had the Grace to extend salvation to us.... Sometimes I think people are so busy trying to be right in their own eyes that they could care less whether or not they are biblically correct.... And no again! NOTHING WE CAN DO WILL SAVE US! Not a single thing.... Because all our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS....


We are not saved nor justified by unmerited favor, What an offensive statement.... And completely unbiblical.... If Paul says we are saved by grace through faith then we are indeed saved by grace through faith.... If Paul says Abraham was justified by his faith then Abraham was justified by his faith and so will we be....


Otherwise we're making Jesus into a scape goat we can hind behind and his gospel we make powerless, and of justification by respect of persons. And we basically say 'to whom much is given, nothing is expected (cause it's all unmerited favor), and to who little is given, well there's no hope for him.'Are you reading the same bible I am reading?????? Jesus IS The Scapegoat! He is The Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!! It is only by His sacrifice and through His blood we are saved.... There is no other name and there is no other action by which man can be saved.... He was pierced for OUR transgressions! He was crushed for OUR sins! The chastisement we owed to clear us of our sins was ON HIM! By HIS stripes WE are healed and made whole! He poured out HIS soul unto death and bore the sins of many!

In ancient Israel they took a goat.... The priests and the guilty parties would lay their hands on this goat.... Symbolically all the sins committed by them were placed on the goat instead of them.... The goat took the punishment for them.... And they were rendered innocent for it.... That is where the term scapegoat came from.... When you accept Jesus as your Savior you are acknowledging that at His death on the cross all your sins were laid on Him.... He was made sin who knew no sin in order that we can be the righteousness of God IN HIM....

There are a few things in your post that I have chosen not to address.... Because this is so essential to salvation anything else is to be ignored.... I don't know what bible you use or what denomination you belong to.... But if you feel Jesus is NOT the ultimate sacrifice for your sins.... You are doomed.... Because all your righteousnesses (your so called faithfulness) are nothing.... They are filthy rags.... You are not righteous.... There are none righteous.... NO NOT ONE.... If you don't have Jesus as your sacrifice and you are not hidden in Christ.... If you are not covered by His blood.... You are lost in your sins and you will die apart from God.... If you do not wish that you better change your way of thinking.... I know I am coming on rather strong.... And I do not mean to offend.... But there are those weaker in the faith than I am and I do NOT want them falling into the lie of salvation by works.... Paul is VERY clear that it is only because God had the grace to extend salvation to us that we are saved.... By faith.... Faith is the evidence of things NOT SEEN.... It is not what we do.... It is the hope we cling to....

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 12:37 AM
Christ is the lamb slain to deliver us from sin and it's power, yes. He is the one through which we are saved. But he gives is life not so he can hide our sins from the Father, but so that we can leave our sins and become like him. We don't 'hide behind Jesus', and it's all the Father sees.

Is Barabbas, the murderer that was delivered instead of Christ, thereby saved? No.

Christ didn't give his life so we can have a free pass. He gave is life so we could be free to become like him, no longer slaves of sin. Human nature wants to use Christ as a scapegoat to hide. The new creation sees the sacrifice as a condemnation on the lack of man and his nature, and rather seeks to be conformed to him. To think of Jesus only as the one who hides us is to think carnally, to seek one's own salvation. We must, rather, understand that it is a condemnation to death of our old nature, and seek to give away our life.

MaryFreeman
Sep 10th 2011, 12:55 AM
Christ is the lamb slain to deliver us from sin and it's power, yes. He is the one through which we are saved. But he gives is life not so he can hide our sins from the Father, but so that we can leave our sins and become like him. We don't 'hide behind Jesus', and it's all the Father sees.

Is Barabbas, the murderer that was delivered instead of Christ, thereby saved? No.

Christ didn't give his life so we can have a free pass. He gave is life so we could be free to become like him, no longer slaves of sin. Human nature wants to use Christ as a scapegoat to hide. The new creation sees the sacrifice as a condemnation on the lack of man and his nature, and rather seeks to be conformed to him. To think of Jesus only as the one who hides us is to think carnally, to seek one's own salvation. We must, rather, understand that it is a condemnation to death of our old nature, and seek to give away our life.No one said Christ died so we can have a free pass.... BUT no one should ever say we are not saved by what Christ did but by what we do.... There is nothing we can do.... The reason we live and move in Christ and let Him change us.... The reason we walk the line if you will.... Is because we are saved.... And for cryin' out loud it is the least we can do in return.... No we cannot still be living in sin.... Which is what Hebrews talks about and also what Paul says.... We cannot sin so that grace may abound or because after all we are saved by grace.... But for those of us who recognize there is nothing we can do or say to get ourselves into heaven.... For those of us who place our faith and trust in Jesus alone for salvation.... He is our scapegoat.... Once for all.... Can we continue to use Him as a scapegoat.... He's not softsoap.... His blood is not some common thing we can bathe the daily grime off with just to make sure we can have our cake and eat it too....

But that is dealing with sin.... Not with works.... Or what you like to call faithfulness.... Your faithfulness won't save you.... Listening to religious people yak your ear off won't save you.... Behaving yourself and minding your manners won't save you.... Jesus will save you.... And that is it....

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 01:07 AM
What about the unfaithfull servant? He surely isn't saved. It says of him, 'tie him hand and feet, and throw him into outer darkness'.

If we are saved by grace (the power of God) through faith, and faith is dead without works, then the response that God wants is indeed faith with works. We DO have a part to play. Yes, we love him because he loved us first, and that is nothing of ourselves. But we must love him... In other words, it is possible that God love a man first, and that this man does not love him back.

Jesus saves us. But only if we follow him. Jesus himself said 'he who endures to the end, HE will be saved', and 'IF you overcome...'. It's not 'once done deal'.

It is so important to understand what grace is, because if we don't, we do not see that God has given us new life and power to actually overcome. There is a spiritual war going on, and God is no respecter of persons, ie, if we end up on the wrong side, we're on the wrong side!

Paul said 'woe is me if I do not preach the gospel'. The abomination of calling grace unmerited favor is that it means that receiving grace requires less of us, instead of more.

MaryFreeman
Sep 10th 2011, 01:24 AM
What about the unfaithfull servant? He surely isn't saved. It says of him, 'tie him hand and feet, and throw him into outer darkness'. And he never was.... Those truly saved will bear the fruit of salvation.... They will act like it.... But they don't act like it to get it.... They act like it because they got it....


If we are saved by grace (the power of God) through faith, Two things....

Thing one: I am pretty sure we covered the true meaning of the word grace.... God's grace and Gods power are two separate things.... I get dizzy when we go in circles dear one....

Thing two: Again we are getting salvation mixed up with justification.... Salvation is a rescue operation.... Justification has a different meaning....



and faith is dead without works, then the response that God wants is indeed faith with works.
This is another aspect entirely.... This is not salvation but justification.... Also let's not get sinning mixed up with "faith with works".... If you get saved.... Yet do not build on the foundation Paul talks about.... You will suffer loss.... But you yourself will be saved.... I did give the scripture you can find this in.... This is what is meant by faith with works.... It has nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with justification....


We DO have a part to play. You have a part to play in your JUSTIFICATION.... You do not have anything to do with the free gift of SALVATION....

Yes, we love him because he loved us first, and that is nothing of ourselves. But we must love him... In other words, it is possible that God love a man first, and that this man does not love him back. The one who does not love Him back is not saved.... The one who does love Him back did not earn salvation.... So it is nothing to brag about that we do love Him.... It's a so-what-big-deal-who-cares kind of thing.... Salvation is by grace (which is indeed Gods favor shown to man despite the fact we do not deserve it).... Through faith (trusting in Jesus alone for salvation)....




Jesus saves us. But only if we follow him. Jesus himself said 'he who endures to the end, HE will be saved', and 'IF you overcome...'. It's not 'once done deal'.

It is so important to understand what grace is, because if we don't, we do not see that God has given us new life and power to actually overcome. There is a spiritual war going on, and God is no respecter of persons, ie, if we end up on the wrong side, we're on the wrong side!

Paul said 'woe is me if I do not preach the gospel'. The abomination of calling grace unmerited favor is that it means that receiving grace requires less of us, instead of more.I beg your pardon?

Did you say abomination?

What gives you the right to change the meaning of anything? Or to tell someone else they are committing an abomination when they call a spade a spade? I ought to report this....

Nevertheless I will answer anyways.... Jesus said to whom much is given, much is required.... Not to whoever earns much.... Much is required.... Given implies you are receiving something you did not earn.... Therefore much is required of those given the free gift of salvation....

amazzin
Sep 10th 2011, 02:28 AM
Neanias

It is evident that you have not experienced "God's grace and unmerited favour" or you would not have said what you did

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 05:01 AM
And he never was.... Those truly saved will bear the fruit of salvation.... They will act like it.... But they don't act like it to get it.... They act like it because they got it....
Two things....

Thing one: I am pretty sure we covered the true meaning of the word grace.... God's grace and Gods power are two separate things.... I get dizzy when we go in circles dear one....

Thing two: Again we are getting salvation mixed up with justification.... Salvation is a rescue operation.... Justification has a different meaning....

This is another aspect entirely.... This is not salvation but justification.... Also let's not get sinning mixed up with "faith with works".... If you get saved.... Yet do not build on the foundation Paul talks about.... You will suffer loss.... But you yourself will be saved.... I did give the scripture you can find this in.... This is what is meant by faith with works.... It has nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with justification....
You have a part to play in your JUSTIFICATION.... You do not have anything to do with the free gift of SALVATION....
The one who does not love Him back is not saved.... The one who does love Him back did not earn salvation.... So it is nothing to brag about that we do love Him.... It's a so-what-big-deal-who-cares kind of thing.... Salvation is by grace (which is indeed Gods favor shown to man despite the fact we do not deserve it).... Through faith (trusting in Jesus alone for salvation)....


I beg your pardon?

Did you say abomination?

What gives you the right to change the meaning of anything? Or to tell someone else they are committing an abomination when they call a spade a spade? I ought to report this....

Nevertheless I will answer anyways.... Jesus said to whom much is given, much is required.... Not to whoever earns much.... Much is required.... Given implies you are receiving something you did not earn.... Therefore much is required of those given the free gift of salvation....

13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

So it's possible that both the Pharisee and the Publican are saved, only the Publican is justified and the Pharisee isn't, is what you're saying. How does that work, cause if one is not 'justified', ie not seen as just, he does not enter the kingdom.

The free gift is that we are saved out of our powerlessness into the life of God, we are put into the race and now we have a 'tool' that enables us to overcome. It is salvation, yes; it saves us from our hopeless situation of slavery to sin. But the next step is to continue unto the saving of the soul. James, adressing the brothers, says to continue unto the saving of the soul. So what does that mean; it's not a done deal? It isn't. We've been grafted in, we can still be cut off.

Salvation? Is all we want to be saved? To make it? This is something a brother always tells me; if a man comes back from war, and he has no legs, no use of his arms, is blind, but he's alive, he survived, he was saved. So what? We are called to glory, to attain Christ.

Yes, men are given a free gift in this life. But as the parable goes, if a man uses that gift wrongly, it is taken away from him, and given to another, and he is tied hand and foot and cast out. We don't get a free pass because God gave us favour, we are more accountable for it!

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 05:05 AM
Neanias

It is evident that you have not experienced "God's grace and unmerited favour" or you would not have said what you did

If I may... With all due respect and love in our Lord;

I would say if a man has experienced the struggle of faith and walking by it, he has seen that he can indeed fall from grace and lose faith. I say it because I experienced it. I have been the fool who, after receiving grace and mercy, turned back to his own darkness. I have received more mercy again, and do not take it lightly, knowing that my betrayal in the face of such love, such a great calling, and such grace, could be my condemnation.

The Lord bless you both!

Raybob
Sep 10th 2011, 08:09 AM
If I may... With all due respect and love in our Lord;

I would say if a man has experienced the struggle of faith and walking by it, he has seen that he can indeed fall from grace and lose faith. I say it because I experienced it. I have been the fool who, after receiving grace and mercy, turned back to his own darkness. I have received more mercy again, and do not take it lightly, knowing that my betrayal in the face of such love, such a great calling, and such grace, could be my condemnation.

The Lord bless you both!I would say if someone is struggling with faith, then they are just wrestling with God. If one walks in faith, with the faith that a mustard seed has (100%), then will totally experience the grace and love from God and know in their heart that it is unmerited favor from Him alone.

jes
Sep 10th 2011, 09:47 AM
Paul was writing to people who were christians already. Faith is only part of being justified, as one must also repent, be baptised in water and
receive the Holy Spirit.

episkopos
Sep 10th 2011, 01:11 PM
It is NOT going against the bible to call grace what it is episkopos.... I don't know where you get that.... But telling someone that grace is NOT what it is and is instead something it is NOT .... IS going against all biblical teaching....
I did look at the Greek word for grace as is used in context by Paul.... And Merriam Webster is consistant with the definition of the Greek word "charis".... Translated grace.... And nowhere in that definition is "Divine empowerment or faculty" found!

G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

This is yet another instance of using the loosest translation possible no matter where it is found to fit ones doctrine.... Doctrine must fit scripture.... It is not the other way around....

To make sense with the word grace as Paul used it in Ephesians 2:8 you CANNOT do that.... You MUST find the definition of the word grace that FITS the context of the passage you are reading....

Because like I said.... If you don't you get a salvation by works doctrine.... Which is a sin and a lie.... It puts the burden of obtaining ones salvation on the one seeking it instead of on the One who offers it.... And if that is so then Jesus was beaten beyond recognition.... Stripped of flesh and clothing.... Whipped with a roman cat o nine til there was literally no part of his body that was not touched.... And then hung on a device so cruel a word had to be created to describe its pain (excruciating).... For absolutely nothing.... Because apparently we can save ourselves....

How utterly offensive.... What a cruel and ugly god to put his own son through that for kicks and giggles....

I think you are confusing grace with mercy. Mercy is unmerited favour. But grace has conditions. So grace is a "merited" favour.

1Pe_5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

So there is merit to being humble. God rewards the humble as in His eyes they merit His grace.

If God acted arbitrarily without looking at the condition of the hearts of men, then He would justify the proud along with the humble. Or else He would be erratic and glorify one person and condemn another to the flames of the lake of fire...on a whim. God is righteous, not arbitrary. One must be worthy (or so become) of the favours God extends.

He judges who are the ones who merit His favours.

The word charis leads us to charisma. On whom God shows favour, He empowers to sonship. This is not to elevate a man according to his old nature...but to start a new creation. This is according to the Spirit.

G5486
χάρισμα
charisma
char'-is-mah
From G5483; a (divine) gratuity, that is, deliverance (from danger or passion); (specifically) a (spiritual) endowment, that is, (subjectively) religious qualification, or (objectively) miraculous faculty: - (free) gift.


There is no such thing (in this life) as God showing unmerited arbitrary favour to a carnal man on a whim. God has a purpose. And God has NO favourites. Any truth in doctrine must take that into account.

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 03:47 PM
The servant must be or become worthy of the talent before judgment, or it is taken away! :)

episkopos
Sep 10th 2011, 03:58 PM
The servant must be or become worthy of the talent before judgment, or it is taken away! :)

Correct! A wicked man must truly become righteous in order to be justified before God. A saint must attain to holiness in action (at least in part) in order to qualify as the bride of Christ.

We will be judged according to our merit whether we are worthy to receive of the rewards of God.

scripturebound
Sep 10th 2011, 05:37 PM
The first big change with the coming of the New Testament is the Age. It began the Age of Christ.

First we have the Age of the Creator, second the Age of Christ, third we have the Age of the Holy Ghost. The New Testament not only fulfilled the prophecy of the coming of Yahushua our Redeemer, but also fulfilled our Saviors sacrifice of his flesh and blood. Rising to life on the third day to also fulfill the foretold promise of our God, to deliver us back into his garden.

Many changes are taking place in the New Testament.

episkopos
Sep 10th 2011, 06:04 PM
The first big change with the coming of the New Testament is the Age. It began the Age of Christ.

First we have the Age of the Creator, second the Age of Christ, third we have the Age of the Holy Ghost. The New Testament not only fulfilled the prophecy of the coming of Yahushua our Redeemer, but also fulfilled our Saviors sacrifice of his flesh and blood. Rising to life on the third day to also fulfill the foretold promise of our God, to deliver us back into his garden.

Many changes are taking place in the New Testament.

So how would you apply that to this thread and the subject at hand?

BTW welcome here! :)

Bandit
Sep 10th 2011, 09:35 PM
So ultimately we are NOT saved by grace, but according to our faithfulness???

The faithful are saved by grace; the unfaithful are not.

RogerW
Sep 10th 2011, 10:19 PM
The faithful are saved by grace; the unfaithful are not.

Hi Bandit,

It is my understanding from Scripture that we are saved by grace through faith...indeed by grace we are saved through the faithfulness of Christ alone.

Bandit
Sep 11th 2011, 05:11 PM
Hi Bandit,

It is my understanding from Scripture that we are saved by grace through faith...indeed by grace we are saved through the faithfulness of Christ alone.

If a person is unfaithful to Christ, then Christ's faithfulness does not profit them.

"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' yet do not do the things which I say?"

RogerW
Sep 11th 2011, 05:15 PM
If a person is unfaithful to Christ, then Christ's faithfulness does not profit them.

Who then can be saved? "There are none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Bandit
Sep 11th 2011, 05:28 PM
It's Christ's glory, not my own.

It's simply wrong to think you can earn salvation which gives you glory.


But I bet you think that those who are eventually condemned by God earned their condemnation? So then, why would it be wrong to say that those who receive God's praise earned it? Or perhaps you are not familiar with words such as, "Well done, good and faithful servant..."

Bandit
Sep 11th 2011, 05:30 PM
Who then can be saved? "There are none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

What is your understanding of Paul's words here? If you take them literally (as it appears you do) then I claim you do not understand what Paul actually meant by them.

Bandit
Sep 11th 2011, 05:42 PM
Then you [episkopos] are of the belief that one may fall from grace? If that is true then grace really does not make us acceptable before God after all...does it? Therefore we can't really affirm Paul's words when he tells us we are saved by grace through faith, and this the gift of God...correct?

Saving 'grace' is not a freedom to live as one pleases, nor is it a guarantee from the potential of falling away from that grace. The grace of God is shown to those who walk the narrow path (see the Sermon on the Mount, for instance). There is no teaching which says that one cannot change the path they are on. That is the 'good news' of the gospel; you can change the path you are on. But do not make the mistake of thinking that the 'good news' is that a person can be saved regardless of which path they take. One path leads to destruction; the other path leads to eternal life.

Bandit
Sep 11th 2011, 05:59 PM
Eph*2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith here is not expressing fallen man's faithfulness. Faith is pistis persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Faith unto salvation is created in us by His grace, and this faith is not our work, but the work of Christ applied through the power of the Holy
Spirit.


Sorry, but the Greek grammar of this sentence does not support the conclusion that 'faith' is the gift. The gift of God is that salvation is by faith. (The process of 'salvation by faith' is God's gift.)

episkopos
Sep 11th 2011, 05:59 PM
If a person is unfaithful to Christ, then Christ's faithfulness does not profit them.

"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' yet do not do the things which I say?"

Well said!!!!....

Bandit
Sep 11th 2011, 06:03 PM
Faith and faithfulness are two different things....

Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing, a belief not built on physical proof.... We walk by faith and not by sight (2 Cor. 5:7)....

...

If faith and faithfulness are different things, then why does the verse you quote say that how we walk (which is our our faithfulness before Him) is by faith?

RogerW
Sep 11th 2011, 07:42 PM
What is your understanding of Paul's words here? If you take them literally (as it appears you do) then I claim you do not understand what Paul actually meant by them.

Please enlighten me! How do you determine what in Scripture is to be taken literally and what is not?

Bandit
Sep 11th 2011, 07:51 PM
Please enlighten me! How do you determine what in Scripture is to be taken literally and what is not?

How does your appearently literal understanding of Romans 3 stand in the light of other portions of scripture? If your literal interpretation of this passage clashes with other passages, then I suggest that a reevaluation is in order.

You quoted,
"There are none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

So, are there literally no righteous persons?

RogerW
Sep 11th 2011, 08:00 PM
Saving 'grace' is not a freedom to live as one pleases,

But the one possessing saving grace has been freed from bondage of sin and death. After having been regenerated by grace through faith then choosing to walk according to our old man, we must remember that God chastens whom He loves.


nor is it a guarantee from the potential of falling away from that grace.

If we could fall away from saving grace through sin, then none could be saved. As long as we live in our mortal bodies of corruption and death we lack perfection in ourselves. This is why we stand in Christ's righteousness, in His perfect life.


The grace of God is shown to those who walk the narrow path (see the Sermon on the Mount, for instance).

As has already been stated in this thread saving grace means to receive God's unmerited favor that we do not deserve. It is not dependent upon how good we are but rather comes through Christ alone, Who alone is good enough.


There is no teaching which says that one cannot change the path they are on.

Every human is on the path to condemnation, born already destined to die. Only God, through Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit can change our path from death to life. He does so to whosoever He wills, not dependent upon anything good in them, but by grace alone!


That is the 'good news' of the gospel; you can change the path you are on. But do not make the mistake of thinking that the 'good news' is that a person can be saved regardless of which path they take. One path leads to destruction; the other path leads to eternal life.

The gospel alone is the good news! There is only one gospel...salvation is of the Lord alone, for He will save His people from their sins. All by grace through faith...salvation, the gift of God lest any man should boast.

RogerW
Sep 11th 2011, 08:02 PM
How does your appearently literal understanding of Romans 3 stand in the light of other portions of scripture? If your literal interpretation of this passage clashes with other passages, then I suggest that a reevaluation is in order.

You quoted,
"There are none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

So, are there literally no righteous persons?

There is only One, Who alone is good, Who is righteous...Jesus Christ our Lord! Unless we stand in His righteousness, we stand condemned!

Bandit
Sep 11th 2011, 08:13 PM
Please enlighten me! How do you determine what in Scripture is to be taken literally and what is not?


How does your appearently literal understanding of Romans 3 stand in the light of other portions of scripture? If your literal interpretation of this passage clashes with other passages, then I suggest that a reevaluation is in order.

You quoted,
"There are none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

So, are there literally no righteous persons?


There is only One, Who alone is good, Who is righteous...Jesus Christ our Lord! Unless we stand in His righteousness, we stand condemned!

So then, according to your claim, I should not be able to find any passage in the bible anywhere which speaks of righteous persons existing?

RogerW
Sep 11th 2011, 08:25 PM
So then, according to your claim, I should not be able to find any passage in the bible anywhere which speaks of righteous persons existing?

That's not true at all. Consider Noah for instance God says, "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." Why does God see Noah as just and perfect (righteous, without fault)? Because "Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." Apart from God's grace Noah too would have been part of "wickedness of man [that] was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." But from God's perspective Noah was good because God had showered grace upon him. Apart from grace none are good, just as Paul tells us. But those who receive God's grace are counted as righteous through the righteousness of Christ.

Bandit
Sep 11th 2011, 09:22 PM
So then, according to your claim, I should not be able to find any passage in the bible anywhere which speaks of righteous persons existing?


That's not true at all. Consider Noah for instance ...

So then, we can't take Paul's words in Romans 3 literally, can we? So righteous persons do exist. So how then should Paul's words be understood?

BroRog
Sep 11th 2011, 09:29 PM
So then, we can't take Paul's words in Romans 3 literally, can we? So righteous persons do exist. So how then should Paul's words be understood?The Greek term behind the English term "righteous" has more than one meaning, which explains why it can be used to talk about the existence of righteous people in one passage and the nonexistence of righteous people in another passage. The definition has at least two connotations:

1. right, good, moral
2. just

When the Bible says "there is none righteous" it means, "there are none good, right, moral." But when it says, "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness", it means "God counted Abraham to be 'right with me' in view of his faith." None are righteous in the first sense, but some are righteous in the second sense.

episkopos
Sep 11th 2011, 10:47 PM
That's not true at all. Consider Noah for instance God says, "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." Why does God see Noah as just and perfect (righteous, without fault)? Because "Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." Apart from God's grace Noah too would have been part of "wickedness of man [that] was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." But from God's perspective Noah was good because God had showered grace upon him. Apart from grace none are good, just as Paul tells us. But those who receive God's grace are counted as righteous through the righteousness of Christ.

Wow! You don't realize what you are making God to be from this kind of reasoning. You need to start again...a reset. Your understanding is in tailspin here.

Bandit
Sep 12th 2011, 12:34 AM
The Greek term behind the English term "righteous" has more than one meaning, which explains why it can be used to talk about the existence of righteous people in one passage and the nonexistence of righteous people in another passage. The definition has at least two connotations:

1. right, good, moral
2. just

When the Bible says "there is none righteous" it means, "there are none good, right, moral." But when it says, "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness", it means "God counted Abraham to be 'right with me' in view of his faith." None are righteous in the first sense, but some are righteous in the second sense.

Actually, I'm going to disagree with your last statement (which I underlined). As only one example should be required, I submit Luke 1:6.

They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

So, then, I ask again, how then should we understand what Paul is saying in Romans 3:10 given that we have established that righteous persons do exist and were acknowledged in the bible?

BroRog
Sep 12th 2011, 01:25 AM
Actually, I'm going to disagree with your last statement (which I underlined). As only one example should be required, I submit Luke 1:6.

They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

So, then, I ask again, how then should we understand what Paul is saying in Romans 3:10 given that we have established that righteous persons do exist and were acknowledged in the bible?I believe Luke means "righteous" in the second sense, not the first. Luke isn't saying that they were morally perfect, but only that they obeyed God in all his requirements. (I can hear Fenris now.) Remember, the law allowed for sin through the animal sacrifices and so if a person was performing the proper sacrifices etc. they were considered "blameless" even though "guilty."

episkopos
Sep 12th 2011, 03:35 AM
I believe Luke means "righteous" in the second sense, not the first. Luke isn't saying that they were morally perfect, but only that they obeyed God in all his requirements. (I can hear Fenris now.) Remember, the law allowed for sin through the animal sacrifices and so if a person was performing the proper sacrifices etc. they were considered "blameless" even though "guilty."

That just doesn't wash, does it?

Diggindeeper
Sep 12th 2011, 04:04 AM
But I bet you think that those who are eventually condemned by God earned their condemnation? So then, why would it be wrong to say that those who receive God's praise earned it? Or perhaps you are not familiar with words such as, "Well done, good and faithful servant..."

I honestly don't think God condemns anyone. WE condemn our self. Here's what condemnation is:

John 3:
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

They condemn their own self, because they simply love the darkness they are living in more than the LIGHT! So...they choose their darkness, thus choosing their own condemnation, and THAT is their condemnation!