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mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 03:43 AM
How much of what we do in our churches (I attend weekly and I am involved) is fear based. Fear that people will sin if we don't do it, fear that people won't give their money or time, fear that people won't attend, fear that people won't grow? It just seems to me that we fear a lot.

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 05:08 AM
Much fear of men and what they might think and do, little fear of God, sadly. :sad:

Slug1
Sep 10th 2011, 06:52 AM
I think what people fear the most in church is that God will actually lead church leadership to call sin... SIN. That's why those churches that preach the Happy Happy, Joy Joy messages, are so full of people who would fear going to churches where sin is called... SIN.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 05:25 PM
Much fear of men and what they might think and do, little fear of God, sadly. :sad: I mean fear as in afraid, Your not suggesting that folks need to be afraid of God are you?

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 05:27 PM
I think what people fear the most in church is that God will actually lead church leadership to call sin... SIN. That's why those churches that preach the Happy Happy, Joy Joy messages, are so full of people who would fear going to churches where sin is called... SIN.

Not really what I am talking about but I see your point. No I go to a church that preaches sin pretty heavy. It just seems that most of what we do is out of fear that people will quit coming, quit giving, quit working. IOW we encourage this as opposed to encouraging the church to spread out and minister to the world.

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 05:33 PM
I mean fear as in afraid, Your not suggesting that folks need to be afraid of God are you?

You're not suggesting they shouldn't, are you? :o

The fear of God is beginning of wisdom. We must work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

No fear of God? :eek:

Diggindeeper
Sep 10th 2011, 05:45 PM
How much of what we do in our churches (I attend weekly and I am involved) is fear based. Fear that people will sin if we don't do it, fear that people won't give their money or time, fear that people won't attend, fear that people won't grow? It just seems to me that we fear a lot.

I don't know where you go to church, but I really do not see 'fear' like you speak of at the church where me and my husband attend. People there don't try to outdo each other by giving of their money or time. They more are happy to be going to church, giving of themselves in time is not something that is pushed or stressed, because folks there seem to hunt out and search for ways they can be used. We never have to beg people to do anything. They are more than glad to just be doing whatever they can.

And 'giving' is not a big deal. Our Pastor does not push giving money. If they have it an want to give, then wonderful. But God always supplies! People don't have to feel obligated to 'give' beyond their ability and their means. Meaning, if someone is out of work, they don't have to feel embarrassed or ashamed.

At our church, everything is voluntary...giving of time or money, the church is growing anyway because it seems God is leading them there. We don't have any big ad campaigns and in fact, the church is growing by word of mouth. We are off the beaten path. We just have very small signs to direct people there, and yet they are finding us and they are coming.

I honestly do not see this 'fear' factor that you are seeing. I guess its the difference in churches.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 05:53 PM
I don't know where you go to church, but I really do not see 'fear' like you speak of at the church where me and my husband attend. People there don't try to outdo each other by giving of their money or time. They more are happy to be going to church, giving of themselves in time is not something that is pushed or stressed, because folks there seem to hunt out and search for ways they can be used. We never have to beg people to do anything. They are more than glad to just be doing whatever they can.

And 'giving' is not a big deal. Our Pastor does not push giving money. If they have it an want to give, then wonderful. But God always supplies! People don't have to feel obligated to 'give' beyond their ability and their means. Meaning, if someone is out of work, they don't have to feel embarrassed or ashamed.

At our church, everything is voluntary...giving of time or money, the church is growing anyway because it seems God is leading them there. We don't have any big ad campaigns and in fact, the church is growing by word of mouth. We are off the beaten path. We just have very small signs to direct people there, and yet they are finding us and they are coming.

I honestly do not see this 'fear' factor that you are seeing. I guess its the difference in churches.
Great, could have something to do with your growth.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 05:54 PM
You're not suggesting they shouldn't, are you? :o

The fear of God is beginning of wisdom. We must work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

No fear of God? :eek:

I revere God, but I am not afraid of Him. Positively anything He does to me is for me, right? Perfect love casts out fear, especially fear of punishment.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 05:56 PM
You're not suggesting they shouldn't, are you? :o

The fear of God is beginning of wisdom. We must work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

No fear of God? :eek:

Nursing from our mothers is the beginning of life but there comes a time when its downright wrong.

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 05:59 PM
Fear not men and what they may do to your body, but fear the one who can destroy both the body and the soul in hell.

We should be fearless of all things against us become God is with us! But fearful before God because he is our Father, and he scourges his children.

We should work out our salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that we have not yet attained and the servant who is unfaithful with his talent has it taken away from him, and is bound hand and feet and thrown into outer darkness.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 06:09 PM
Fear not men and what they may do to your body, but fear the one who can destroy both the body and the soul in hell.

We should be fearless of all things against us become God is with us! But fearful before God because he is our Father, and he scourges his children.

We should work out our salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that we have not yet attained and the servant who is unfaithful with his talent has it taken away from him, and is bound hand and feet and thrown into outer darkness.

Does God chastise those He loves? If He is chastising me out of love and it is for my absolute good shouldn't I welcome Him instead of be afraid of Him. Maybe I should fear the consequences but that's a lot different than fearing God.

This causes us to run from God when we sin and not to Him. Shouldn't we run to Him when we are at our weakest. The consequences of the Prodigal's sin caused him to go home and he had every reason to be afraid of his father.

God does not punish us for our sin, He allows our sin to punish us so that we will return to Him. What do you think the first John passage I quoted is talking about..............perfect Love casts out fear?

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 06:14 PM
He does, yes. Hebrews 12

Have we attained yet? Is the race over? Will we with certainty be the good servant accepted into the kingdom? No. We must fear, because we may still be rejected. We must seek God with a broken and a contrite heart, knowing that he is God, and if we betray him, we might indeed be rejected. Of course, you might say 'Peter betrayed him'. Yes, but his faith did not fail him and he was 'converted' again (it literally says that).

Christ says that he who endures to the end will be saved. We must come to God, fearing him, knowing that there are no guarantees until the race is over. If a man runs a race, and near the end, he is ahead and starts celebrating and stops being carefull, and he trips and falls, and just before he arrives, 5 men pass him, he is not first anymore, but sixth.

So in our lives we must understand that we are not immune to mistake, and we must seek God in fear and trembling.

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 06:17 PM
There is one instance where it says that there was no fear of God for some men, except it's not a good thing ;)

Romans 3 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.[e (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-28002e)]
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.[f (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-28005f)]
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.[g (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-28006g)]

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 06:22 PM
He does, yes. Hebrews 12

Have we attained yet? Is the race over? Will we with certainty be the good servant accepted into the kingdom? No. We must fear, because we may still be rejected. We must seek God with a broken and a contrite heart, knowing that he is God, and if we betray him, we might indeed be rejected. Of course, you might say 'Peter betrayed him'. Yes, but his faith did not fail him and he was 'converted' again (it literally says that).

Christ says that he who endures to the end will be saved. We must come to God, fearing him, knowing that there are no guarantees until the race is over. If a man runs a race, and near the end, he is ahead and starts celebrating and stops being carefull, and he trips and falls, and just before he arrives, 5 men pass him, he is not first anymore, but sixth.

So in our lives we must understand that we are not immune to mistake, and we must seek God in fear and trembling.

Yep If I believed that I would be scared to death, but not of God. I'd be afraid of my own ability to please an ogre god that could be angered to the point of tossing one in a fiery pit because they didn't live up to His standards. Jesus said, "I have come to show you the Father," The bible goes on to say that Jesus was the express image of the Father. I don't see many sinners afraid of Him. Now the religious folks that's a different story. Not sure they were afraid but they certainly hated Him.
Fear and Love are opposites.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 06:26 PM
There is one instance where it says that there was no fear of God for some men, except it's not a good thing ;)

Romans 3 14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-28002e)]
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-28005f)]
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-28006g)]

is that talking about being afraid or having respect for?

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 07:26 PM
Yep If I believed that I would be scared to death, but not of God. I'd be afraid of my own ability to please an ogre god that could be angered to the point of tossing one in a fiery pit because they didn't live up to His standards. Jesus said, "I have come to show you the Father," The bible goes on to say that Jesus was the express image of the Father. I don't see many sinners afraid of Him. Now the religious folks that's a different story. Not sure they were afraid but they certainly hated Him.
Fear and Love are opposites.

Fear and love are not opposites. If you love your friend, you will fear being a stumbling block to him. A father, out of love, corrects a son, and the son fears disobeying his father.

We have confidence and love towards God because he loved us first, and we fear him because he is no respecter of persons, and warns us that the unfaithfull will be cast out.

To take one attribute of God, his love, to deny another, his justice, is not... Recommended, as far as good doctrine is concerned! ;)

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 07:30 PM
is that talking about being afraid or having respect for?

The word is phobos. You know, where we get the word 'Phobia'? It was actually also used in the Greek to speak of TERROR. Yes, it is about fear.

Falling into the hands of the living God is a fearful thing. To change it and say "falling into the hands of the living makes you in awe of him" or "brings you to respect him" takes the power out of the word of God. It makes it meaningless... God loves you, and that's it! But there is more to it, isn't there. So much that when it was preached and lived, it turned the world upside down, and brought persecution!

No one will persecute you for just saying 'God loves you, especially if you're a Christian, God just loves you... It doesn't matter... Nothing matters... He just loves you'

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 07:40 PM
The word is phobos. You know, where we get the word 'Phobia'? It was actually also used in the Greek to speak of TERROR. Yes, it is about fear.

Falling into the hands of the living God is a fearful thing. To change it and say "falling into the hands of the living makes you in awe of him" or "brings you to respect him" takes the power out of the word of God. It makes it meaningless... God loves you, and that's it! But there is more to it, isn't there. So much that when it was preached and lived, it turned the world upside down, and brought persecution!

No one will persecute you for just saying 'God loves you, especially if you're a Christian, God just loves you... It doesn't matter... Nothing matters... He just loves you'

We are reading two different bibles. Neither of us are going to get very far. You seem to be saying that what Christ did on Calvary was worthless to me unless I can earn it. I will never believe that. Have you been persecuted lately? I mean stripes, imprisoned, starved, made to face lions?

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 07:47 PM
What Christ did on calvary is make a way. Yes, freely he has given. We did not pay for him to make a way. But if we do not WALK in the way he has FREELY given, do you really think we will get the REWARD that comes from walking in that way? No. Christ has made a way, we must follow him in that way. He paid the price, yes, but also set an example on how we must live to be counted worthy of what he paid for... Otherwise EVERYONE should be in the Kingdom! Or just those who God prefers, and he is no respecter of person, so that can't be!

I have not been persecuted, no. But I do not use the fact very few here have to excuse myself. That is going according to man's standard. The fact I have not been persecuted leads me to question whether I have been following Christ truthfully enough. When Christ says 'all who live godly will suffer persecution', I believe him. I don't change his standard to fit how I live, I change how I live to fit his standard.

bob
Sep 10th 2011, 07:48 PM
I think what people fear the most in church is that God will actually lead church leadership to call sin... SIN. That's why those churches that preach the Happy Happy, Joy Joy messages, are so full of people who would fear going to churches where sin is called... SIN.

:thumbsup: You ever notice those mega churches with thousands of members where they never even say the word sin? Not saying all large churches have gone this route; but I know of a couple.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 07:52 PM
What Christ did on calvary is make a way. Yes, freely he has given. We did not pay for him to make a way. But if we do not WALK in the way he has FREELY given, do you really think we will get the REWARD that comes from walking in that way? No. Christ has made a way, we must follow him in that way. He paid the price, yes, but also set an example on how we must live to be counted worthy of what he paid for... Otherwise EVERYONE should be in the Kingdom! Or just those who God prefers, and he is no respecter of person, so that can't be!

I have not been persecuted, no. But I do not use the fact very few here have to excuse myself. That is going according to man's standard. The fact I have not been persecuted leads me to question whether I have been following Christ truthfully enough. When Christ says 'all who live godly will suffer persecution', I believe him. I don't change his standard to fit how I live, I change how I live to fit his standard.

Do you feel free?

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 07:53 PM
:thumbsup: You ever notice those mega churches with thousands of members where they never even say the word sin? Not saying all large churches have gone this route; but I know of a couple.

not true with the one I attend

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 07:55 PM
Do you feel free?

I am free to follow Him. :)

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 07:56 PM
I am free to follow Him. :)

Great. I am too. Are you free to mess up? Ever? What do you think Paul meant when he said that God's kindness lead us to repentence?

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 08:08 PM
Great. I am too. Are you free to mess up? Ever? What do you think Paul meant when he said that God's kindness lead us to repentence?

Indeed, I have messed up, and God has been kind and merciful. But I do not use the grace that he has given me to somehow twist his arm and say he has to give me grace even if I never learn.

God is patient and merciful with us, but he does that so that we would grow and produce fruit. Don't you know the parable?

“A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”

The mercy of God is not a license to keep going in our ways, it is a chance to learn His.

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 08:18 PM
The only true freedom is in Christ, where one is free to serve God without being under the power of sin and death.

I fear many christians today have stopped short of entering this freedom, and been fooled into thinking that freedom is to be able to do whatever the sin nature dictates, and still be his.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 08:18 PM
Indeed, I have messed up, and God has been kind and merciful. But I do not use the grace that he has given me to somehow twist his arm and say he has to give me grace even if I never learn.

God is patient and merciful with us, but he does that so that we would grow and produce fruit. Don't you know the parable?

“A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”

The mercy of God is not a license to keep going in our ways, it is a chance to learn His.

We do not produce fruit. The fruit is of the Spirit. We simply bear it. Israel was the fig tree and Israel was give the message of God's love and grace and they turned it into rules to keep. God took the message to gentiles through Paul. And I didn't ask if you had messed up, I asked if you were free to mess up?

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 08:31 PM
We do not produce fruit. The fruit is of the Spirit. We simply bear it. Israel was the fig tree and Israel was give the message of God's love and grace and they turned it into rules to keep. God took the message to gentiles through Paul. And I didn't ask if you had messed up, I asked if you were free to mess up?

Colossians 1:10
that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

So much for that theory! ;) The scriptures say we must indeed bear fruit to God.

Am I free to mess up? I have the freedom to do it, but not knowing yet if I will be forgiven or not, thus why it is a fearful thing. I do not judge myself, and fear the judgment that God will have upon me if I somehow make myself judge and I decide I am free to mess up. We cannot judge ourselves and say 'I can mess up as much as I want', otherwise we are making ourselves judge and taking God's place. God will decide in the end.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Would you like to directly contradict Paul and say we can't be cut off? God is the judge of your life, not you. He decides, not us, by some formula we made up.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 08:44 PM
Colossians 1:10
that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

So much for that theory! ;) The scriptures say we must indeed bear fruit to God.

Am I free to mess up? I have the freedom to do it, but not knowing yet if I will be forgiven or not, thus why it is a fearful thing. I do not judge myself, and fear the judgment that God will have upon me if I somehow make myself judge and I decide I am free to mess up. We cannot judge ourselves and say 'I can mess up as much as I want', otherwise we are making ourselves judge and taking God's place. God will decide in the end.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Would you like to directly contradict Paul and say we can't be cut off? God is the judge of your life, not you. He decides, not us, by some formula we made up.
Did you read my post. I said
"We do not produce fruit. The fruit is of the Spirit. We simply bear it." I don't believe that you produce love, and peace and joy.................

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 08:48 PM
Which doesn't change that you have to be fruitful.

Unless, of course, with no reason whatsoever some trees just produce fruit and others don't. In other words, good luck, I hope it works out for me, maybe God likes you, maybe he doesn't, you can't do anything to serve him or not!

Unless we allow the Spirit to produce fruit in us, we will be cut down.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 08:50 PM
Which doesn't change that you have to be fruitful.

Unless, of course, with no reason whatsoever some trees just produce fruit and others don't. In other words, good luck, I hope it works out for me, maybe God likes you, maybe he doesn't, you can't do anything to serve him or not!

Unless we allow the Spirit to produce fruit in us, we will be cut down.

What?..................

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 08:55 PM
Did you read my post. I said I don't believe that you produce love, and peace and joy.................

The spirit within us has to produce this fruit, yes. Do we have nothing to do with it? Nothing we do affects whether we bear the fruits of the Spirit? It doesn't matter if you don't believe it, the word says we must be fruitful unto God.

We have a part to play, if we are unfaithfull with the talent that God has given us, we will be rejected!

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 08:57 PM
The spirit within us has to produce this fruit, yes. Do we have nothing to do with it? Nothing we do affects whether we bear the fruits of the Spirit? It doesn't matter if you don't believe it, the word says we must be fruitful unto God.

We have a part to play, if we are unfaithfull with the talent that God has given us, we will be rejected!

Yes we do have a part to play. I agree.

So are you free to mess up?

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 09:03 PM
To everyone, God extends mercy. But do we choose when he extends mercy, or does he?

If we choose, your question makes sense. Only we don't. God is the judge, and if I mess up, he will decide whether or not there is hope for me. It is possible to fall away from grace.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 09:13 PM
To everyone, God extends mercy. But do we choose when he extends mercy, or does he?

If we choose, your question makes sense. Only we don't. God is the judge, and if I mess up, he will decide whether or not there is hope for me. It is possible to fall away from grace.

So if you mess up its not because you choose to but when you bear fruit its because you do choose to.

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 10:02 PM
So if you mess up its not because you choose to but when you bear fruit its because you do choose to.

Where did I say that?

We are the ground, the word of God is the seed. When the word of God is freely given to us, we are judged as being good ground or bad ground according to whether or not it can grow and bear fruit. Our job is to be faithful with what we have. We cannot water ourselves or make ourselves grow, that is what the Lord does, but we can make ourselves available, so that when the seed and the water is given us, fruit will come.

God gives us a measure of grace, we must be faithful with that, otherwise we will indeed be cut off.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 10:04 PM
Where did I say that?

We are the ground, the word of God is the seed. When the word of God is freely given to us, we are judged as being good ground or bad ground according to whether or not it can grow and bear fruit. Our job is to be faithful with what we have. We cannot water ourselves or make ourselves grow, that is what the Lord does, but we can make ourselves available, so that when the seed and the water is given us, fruit will come.

God gives us a measure of grace, we must be faithful with that, otherwise we will indeed be cut off.

Do you choose to be faithful? Do you choose to sin? Yes or No for both will suffice?

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 10:15 PM
Of course man chooses to be faithful. Are you going to tell me that it's the whim of God that decides which man is faithful? :rolleyes:

Yes, we do choose to sin. If we are not freed by Christ, we are indeed slaves to sin, and cannot be free from it. In that case we must choose to do good when we can. If we are in Christ, we are free. As the word says, if one sins willfully (implying it is his decision then)...

We can be enslaved, but we still make choices. Otherwise we are automatons in the hands of God and one is saved simply because he receives more, once again making it a lie that 'to who much is given, much is required'.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 10:18 PM
Of course man chooses to be faithful. Are you going to tell me that it's the whim of God that decides which man is faithful? :rolleyes:

Yes, we do choose to sin. If we are not freed by Christ, we are indeed slaves to sin, and cannot be free from it. In that case we must choose to do good when we can. If we are in Christ, we are free. As the word says, if one sins willfully (implying it is his decision then)...

We can be enslaved, but we still make choices. Otherwise we are automatons in the hands of God and one is saved simply because he receives more, once again making it a lie that 'to who much is given, much is required'.

You are not free to sin but you are free to follow Christ? I'm not asking if you can sin, I want to know if you sin on purpose does it change the way God feels about you? I'm in no way saying sin is beneficial. Does God love you, or your actions?

Neanias
Sep 10th 2011, 10:22 PM
Yes and no. Yes, the choice is before me. No, grace is not a license to sin, and I will be judged for how I use the grace that is given me.

mikebr
Sep 10th 2011, 10:27 PM
Yes and no. Yes, the choice is before me. No, grace is not a license to sin, and I will be judged for how I use the grace that is given me.

Why do you assume that I am saying that Grace is a license to sin? I never sad it or thought it. The Bible is clear that sin is destructive. Are you using grace to keep a set of laws or love others. Do you love God? Why?

Neanias
Sep 11th 2011, 06:39 AM
Brother, I don't think I understand your question, and I don't understand what you are getting to. Could you help me? Forgive me if I gave you the impression I was implying that belief on you. :)

mikebr
Sep 11th 2011, 09:45 PM
Brother, I don't think I understand your question, and I don't understand what you are getting to. Could you help me? Forgive me if I gave you the impression I was implying that belief on you. :)

I truly am sorry if I misread and misrepresented you.

I was asking if you thought God's grace was a tool that enables us to keep His law or because we are loved unconditionally(grace) that it enables us to love in return.

Grace means that there is nothing we can do to make God love us more and there is nothing we can do to make Him love us less.:thumbsup:

Neanias
Sep 12th 2011, 03:20 AM
I truly am sorry if I misread and misrepresented you.

I was asking if you thought God's grace was a tool that enables us to keep His law or because we are loved unconditionally(grace) that it enables us to love in return.

Grace means that there is nothing we can do to make God love us more and there is nothing we can do to make Him love us less.:thumbsup:

:)

God's love is unconditional in the sense that he loves all. But his love does not make him unjust; he is just and will reward everyone according to their works. In the end, all reap what they sow. There is, yes, forgiveness.

If we had to do NOTHING for God to accept us, then either everyone has to be accepted, or God has favorites. Think about it; if it has NOTHING to do with what we do, either then everyone is in, because no matter what any of them did, he loves them, or only his favorites are in, because he makes them special for NO REASON. That would make God unjust. :)

Grace is a tool that enables us to be fruitful. Mercy is present with God, yes, and he does have mercy to those who have mercy (see there that once again there is a condition).

If we are not faithful, we will be rejected, the Bible is full of warnings about it. 'he who endures to the end', 'IF you obey my commandments' etc. On the other hand, humility and brokeness will allow God to have mercy, even if we fail. But God has indeed, through his son and by his son, given us the tools to overcome. Aiming for less is indeed a problem.

mikebr
Sep 12th 2011, 11:42 AM
:)

God's love is unconditional in the sense that he loves all. But his love does not make him unjust; he is just and will reward everyone according to their works. In the end, all reap what they sow. There is, yes, forgiveness.

If we had to do NOTHING for God to accept us, then either everyone has to be accepted, or God has favorites. Think about it; if it has NOTHING to do with what we do, either then everyone is in, because no matter what any of them did, he loves them, or only his favorites are in, because he makes them special for NO REASON. That would make God unjust. :)

Grace is a tool that enables us to be fruitful. Mercy is present with God, yes, and he does have mercy to those who have mercy (see there that once again there is a condition).

If we are not faithful, we will be rejected, the Bible is full of warnings about it. 'he who endures to the end', 'IF you obey my commandments' etc. On the other hand, humility and brokeness will allow God to have mercy, even if we fail. But God has indeed, through his son and by his son, given us the tools to overcome. Aiming for less is indeed a problem.

If I was unjust to my own children would you consider me unloving? If I was unloving would you consider me unjust? Why do you think the two are unrelated?

Neanias
Sep 12th 2011, 05:30 PM
They are not unrelated.

Yes, God chastises those he loves, and it is for their good. But if by his chastisement we do not learn, and remain in our ways, we will be rejected.

The way is narrow, and few find it. That alone is enough to make a man tremble before the Lord. Not be confident about this 'assurance of salvation'!

mikebr
Sep 12th 2011, 07:16 PM
They are not unrelated.

Yes, God chastises those he loves, and it is for their good. But if by his chastisement we do not learn, and remain in our ways, we will be rejected.

The way is narrow, and few find it. That alone is enough to make a man tremble before the Lord. Not be confident about this 'assurance of salvation'!

OK.....................

svfox
Sep 16th 2011, 02:45 AM
I see people complain if asked to give money. They say so or you see it in their face. Like you know how much I give!
First off, God gave it to you so be glad you have money. Don't give it if you don't want to. God likes a cheerful giver.
But I go to their house and see a new camper, new tv, new cars, new appliances, new everthing.
Something tells me God didn't get the first fruits.

The amazing thing is most have now lost it all or are hanging on for dear life. So God is taking away.
Ironic.

svfox
Sep 16th 2011, 03:42 AM
Jesus said My yoke is light.
We don't have to worry about this. Just bring it to the world and shine the light. Don't put all that on your shoulders or you will kill yourself.

mikebr
Sep 16th 2011, 11:42 AM
Most of our fears are a consequence of not knowing God well enough.Fear comes from uncertainty. If we are confident, secure, and certain about who we are in Christ, and who Christ is in us, then we won't be worried about what the devil might do, and we won't be worried about what other people might do.

Chip Brogden ..................................



And I would add that we won't be worried about what God might do!:idea: