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Firstfruits
Oct 9th 2011, 03:57 PM
When did the law of Christ begin?

What is the law of Christ, compared to the law of Moses?

Gal 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Firstfruits

Neanias
Oct 9th 2011, 04:16 PM
The law of Christ is to love one another as He has loved us.

Thus the bar is raised, because now we have a new nature by which we can walk.

Firstfruits
Oct 9th 2011, 04:19 PM
The law of Christ is to love one another as He has loved us.

Thus the bar is raised, because now we have a new nature by which we can walk.

Thank you Neanias.

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

Neanias
Oct 9th 2011, 04:23 PM
:)

Blessings to you too, Firstfruits!

Firstfruits
Oct 9th 2011, 04:42 PM
Is the law of liberty the law of Christ?

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Firstfruits

glad4mercy
Oct 9th 2011, 08:04 PM
The law of Christ is to love one another as He has loved us.

Thus the bar is raised, because now we have a new nature by which we can walk.

Well stated!

1 John 2:8- Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past , and the true light now shineth .

Walls
Oct 10th 2011, 09:11 AM
When did the law of Christ begin?

What is the law of Christ, compared to the law of Moses?

Gal 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Firstfruits

The Law of Christ began on the eve of the resurrection day of Jesus when He breathed Himself into His disciples (Jn.20:22).

The law of Moses was a Law written on tablets of stone. There were just over 600 commandments. It was to be fulfilled by the efforts of the flesh. It was good and spiritual but it failed because of man's innate weakness and sinful nature.

The Law of Christ is the sum total of Jesus' life, death, resurrection and ascension, bundled into the "life-giving Spirit" of 1st Corinthians 15:50. It is "breathed" into all born again believers. It resides in a man's spirit. It has the power and authority of God, but it will not overthrow a man's free will. It makes demands and the flesh makes demands. The decisions of a Christian (a part of the soul) decide whether Christ will be obeyed or the flesh will be obeyed. It is an ongoing battle in a Christian's life (Gal.5:17).

It is a "Royal" Law, a Law of "life" and a Law of "liberty" (Rom.8:2; Jas.1:25, 2:8). It functions as a result of a Christian's relationship with the Lord Jesus. If the Christian is cold towards the Lord he/she will be unlikely to obey it. If a Christian loves the Lord, he/she "will keep His commandments" (Jn.14:23). There are over 2'400 commandments in the New Testament. Added to this there are many unwritten commands from the Lord. All Christians have experienced this. The Lord might allow you to drive a Mercedes, but to another missionary in Africa, He might command him to drive an old Jeep. One Christian does not enter bars for he/she feels defiled. Another can go in freely. To one the Lord asks half his/her salary one month and the next He asks for nothing. The Law of Christ is an individual things between the Christian and His Lord. That which is written in the New Testament is just as binding as the Law of Moses, for it sets forth;

The Testimony of a Christian before the nations
The order inside the House of God, the Church

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2011, 03:18 PM
The Law of Christ began on the eve of the resurrection day of Jesus when He breathed Himself into His disciples (Jn.20:22).

The law of Moses was a Law written on tablets of stone. There were just over 600 commandments. It was to be fulfilled by the efforts of the flesh. It was good and spiritual but it failed because of man's innate weakness and sinful nature.

The Law of Christ is the sum total of Jesus' life, death, resurrection and ascension, bundled into the "life-giving Spirit" of 1st Corinthians 15:50. It is "breathed" into all born again believers. It resides in a man's spirit. It has the power and authority of God, but it will not overthrow a man's free will. It makes demands and the flesh makes demands. The decisions of a Christian (a part of the soul) decide whether Christ will be obeyed or the flesh will be obeyed. It is an ongoing battle in a Christian's life (Gal.5:17).

It is a "Royal" Law, a Law of "life" and a Law of "liberty" (Rom.8:2; Jas.1:25, 2:8). It functions as a result of a Christian's relationship with the Lord Jesus. If the Christian is cold towards the Lord he/she will be unlikely to obey it. If a Christian loves the Lord, he/she "will keep His commandments" (Jn.14:23). There are over 2'400 commandments in the New Testament. Added to this there are many unwritten commands from the Lord. All Christians have experienced this. The Lord might allow you to drive a Mercedes, but to another missionary in Africa, He might command him to drive an old Jeep. One Christian does not enter bars for he/she feels defiled. Another can go in freely. To one the Lord asks half his/her salary one month and the next He asks for nothing. The Law of Christ is an individual things between the Christian and His Lord. That which is written in the New Testament is just as binding as the Law of Moses, for it sets forth;

The Testimony of a Christian before the nations
The order inside the House of God, the Church


Thank you Walls,

That is much appreciated, God bless you.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2011, 03:24 PM
Well stated!

1 John 2:8- Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past , and the true light now shineth .

I believe an important note which is for some reason is not pointed out as it has been, is not just that we love one another, but, as he has loved us, we should love one aother.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Oct 10th 2011, 04:07 PM
Just me thinking again but...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word was the creator, yes?

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word became the one we know now as Jesus Christ, yes?

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

No one has ever heard the voice of the Father, or seen His shape, Yes?

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Must have been the Word, Yes?

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,
...

This then must have also been the Word, yes?

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The Word must have spoken this then, yes?

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Pretty sure Paul said this, yes?

Did the Word, the Eternal (LORD - YHVH), Jesus Christ change since this was written? Or are His laws still in effect?

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2011, 06:32 PM
Just me thinking again but...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word was the creator, yes?

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word became the one we know now as Jesus Christ, yes?

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

No one has ever heard the voice of the Father, or seen His shape, Yes?

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Must have been the Word, Yes?

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,
...

This then must have also been the Word, yes?

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The Word must have spoken this then, yes?

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Pretty sure Paul said this, yes?

Did the Word, the Eternal (LORD - YHVH), Jesus Christ change since this was written? Or are His laws still in effect?

According to what is written the word is the word of faith; Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 10th 2011, 08:42 PM
According to what is written the word is the word of faith; Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Firstfruits

God doesn't need faith

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2011, 08:45 PM
God doesn't need faith

And yet the law is not of faith, and the just are to live by faith.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 10th 2011, 11:04 PM
And yet the law is not of faith, and the just are to live by faith.

Firstfruits

Seems like Abraham's faith produced more than just rhetoric-

I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring[a] all nations on earth will be blessed, 5 because [B]Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”

Firstfruits
Oct 11th 2011, 07:47 AM
Seems like Abraham's faith produced more than just rhetoric-

I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring[a] all nations on earth will be blessed, 5 because [B]Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”

Abraham surley obeyed God, yet it was not the law that God gave to Israel at Mount Sinai, which was four hundred years later.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Oct 11th 2011, 11:03 AM
I think the moral of this thread is that one can behave in any manner because there is no law. All one has to do is "say the magic words" and all is well. So lying, stealing, adultery, cursing, etc is no longer a problem because the law is done away. Oh and by the way, you can't believe that Jesus character, He says he changes not, that He is consistent but we know the truth. He changed everything.

Firstfruits
Oct 11th 2011, 01:59 PM
I think the moral of this thread is that one can behave in any manner because there is no law. All one has to do is "say the magic words" and all is well. So lying, stealing, adultery, cursing, etc is no longer a problem because the law is done away. Oh and by the way, you can't believe that Jesus character, He says he changes not, that He is consistent but we know the truth. He changed everything.

Should we then ignore the following?

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1 Pet 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Oct 11th 2011, 02:12 PM
Should we then ignore the following?

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1 Pet 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

Firstfruits

You seem to miss the point that...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Being under the law means that one is subject to the law, specifically, subject to the penalty of the law. To be free from the law, is to be freed from having to pay the penalty of death. If, as you continually assert, the law is done away, then we have anarchy. There is no government, there is no right and wrong, there is no standard of conduct and most importantly, there is no morality or immorality. Feeding the poor, is on equal footing with mass murder. True, there is no sin when there is no law, because anything goes. This line of thinking allows for...

Jdg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Firstfruits
Oct 11th 2011, 02:32 PM
You seem to miss the point that...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Being under the law means that one is subject to the law, specifically, subject to the penalty of the law. To be free from the law, is to be freed from having to pay the penalty of death. If, as you continually assert, the law is done away, then we have anarchy. There is no government, there is no right and wrong, there is no standard of conduct and most importantly, there is no morality or immorality. Feeding the poor, is on equal footing with mass murder. True, there is no sin when there is no law, because anything goes. This line of thinking allows for...

Jdg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

In that case we cannot use the law regarding righteousness.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Oct 11th 2011, 03:01 PM
In that case we cannot use the law regarding righteousness.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Firstfruits

I cannot use a fishing pole to reroof a house either, so does that do away with the fishing pole? The deeds of the law justify none, so does that mean we do away with the law, or do we not use it for justification. It has it's intended use, the definer of sin...

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The law tells us what sin is, it does not justify us for breaking the law...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Breaking God's law required the death of Christ to justify us, so now we lightly say, oh well, doesn't matter anyway, because there is no law. I do not really need the blood of Christ to justify me, because...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Firstfruits
Oct 11th 2011, 03:08 PM
I cannot use a fishing pole to reroof a house either, so does that do away with the fishing pole? The deeds of the law justify none, so does that mean we do away with the law, or do we not use it for justification. It has it's intended use, the definer of sin...

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The law tells us what sin is, it does not justify us for breaking the law...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Breaking God's law required the death of Christ to justify us, so now we lightly say, oh well, doesn't matter anyway, because there is no law. I do not really need the blood of Christ to justify me, because...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

If you have Christ you have more than what you had with the law of Moses.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 11th 2011, 03:20 PM
If the law of God given through Moses is the same as the law of God given through Christ, why can we not be justified by doing what is written in it?

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Oct 11th 2011, 03:37 PM
If the law of God given through Moses is the same as the law of God given through Christ, why can we not be justified by doing what is written in it?

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Firstfruits

Being obedient does not pay for past sins. You can't make this assignment up for extra credit. Perfect obedience does not give salvation. If one lives his/her entire life in perfect obedience, they would have a very good life indeed, but that is all that obedience to the law provides...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That gift is very costly and God just does not hand it out frivolously to just anyone. He requires repentence from a former way of living and a desire and a striving to live according to His law. He wants all of us, thought and deed.

Firstfruits
Oct 11th 2011, 06:35 PM
Being obedient does not pay for past sins. You can't make this assignment up for extra credit. Perfect obedience does not give salvation. If one lives his/her entire life in perfect obedience, they would have a very good life indeed, but that is all that obedience to the law provides...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That gift is very costly and God just does not hand it out frivolously to just anyone. He requires repentence from a former way of living and a desire and a striving to live according to His law. He wants all of us, thought and deed.

But if we are continually proven to be unrighteous because we cannot keep the law, then how can we be righteous at the same time through christ? Is that not a contradiction?

We are either righteous of unrighteous, we either belong to God or to Satan. How are we made righteous?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Oct 11th 2011, 06:43 PM
But if we are continually proven to be unrighteous because we cannot keep the law, then how can we be righteous at the same time through christ? Is that not a contradiction?

We are either righteous of unrighteous, we either belong to God or to Satan. How are we made righteous?

Firstfruits

What we continually prove is how much we need Christ and His sacrifice.

Firstfruits
Oct 11th 2011, 06:46 PM
What we continually prove is how much we need Christ and His sacrifice.

Above all else, yes I agree!!!!!

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 13th 2011, 02:25 AM
Abraham surley obeyed God, yet it was not the law that God gave to Israel at Mount Sinai, which was four hundred years later.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Firstfruits

Progressive revealation does not negate the former.

Firstfruits
Oct 13th 2011, 07:52 AM
Progressive revealation does not negate the former.

Would you then agree that Abraham did what God commanded him to do, without the law of Moses?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 13th 2011, 09:28 AM
If there is no difference between what God has commanded to Israel through Moses and what he has commanded through Jesus, why would it need to be replaced by a new one?

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Firstfruits

episkopos
Oct 13th 2011, 01:17 PM
I think the major point is being missed here.

1. What equips us in the NT to do better than those in the OT?

2. How does faith alone help us be more righteous than faith plus trying very hard?

Is it simply that we recognize that we are sinners more than those in the OT?

3. Is trying not to be good superior to an effort to be good?

Firstfruits
Oct 13th 2011, 01:33 PM
I think the major point is being missed here.

1. What equips us in the NT to do better than those in the OT?

2. How does faith alone help us be more righteous than faith plus trying very hard?

Is it simply that we recognize that we are sinners more than those in the OT?

3. Is trying not to be good superior to an effort to be good?

I believe it is accepting that which we have had from the begining.

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 14th 2011, 11:55 AM
If Christ is the end of the law for righteousnesss, meaning that without doing what is written in the law we shall inherit the kingdom of God;

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law For righteousness to every one that believeth.

What can the law of Moses do that Christ cannot do, that we should hold on to it?

Firstfruits

mikebr
Oct 14th 2011, 12:11 PM
Romans 5:20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

I think the real issue is that it is human to hope that what we do will count for something? True Freedom comes with knowing that if we don't do them
God loves us anyway.

episkopos
Oct 14th 2011, 12:38 PM
I think the real issue is that it is human to hope that what we do will count for something? True Freedom comes with knowing that if we ]don't[/U] do them
God loves us anyway.

What about won't do them.

Firstfruits
Oct 14th 2011, 12:54 PM
I think the real issue is that it is human to hope that what we do will count for something? True Freedom comes with knowing that if we don't do them
God loves us anyway.

What about when we know that nothing that we do that is written in the law will be recognized by God?

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 14th 2011, 06:52 PM
Would you then agree that Abraham did what God commanded him to do, without the law of Moses?

Firstfruits

Correction - Law of God. Let's not make what is holy common, OK?

Firstfruits
Oct 15th 2011, 12:54 PM
Correction - Law of God. Let's not make what is holy common, OK?

Do you accept that the law that God gave to Israel through Moses was given 400 years later?

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 18th 2011, 10:30 PM
Do you accept that the law that God gave to Israel through Moses was given 400 years later?

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Firstfruits

I accept what John wrote - that all things were made through Christ and for Christ - "all" things include God's Law.

Firstfruits
Oct 19th 2011, 11:41 AM
I accept what John wrote - that all things were made through Christ and for Christ - "all" things include God's Law.

Do you or do you not accept the following?

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 19th 2011, 06:01 PM
Do you or do you not accept the following?

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Firstfruits

I accept everything written in God's word, in proper context, with proper hemenutics applied.

Although, I have to say, these God vs. God threads always make my head spin.....

Firstfruits
Oct 19th 2011, 08:00 PM
I accept everything written in God's word, in proper context, with proper hemenutics applied.

Although, I have to say, these God vs. God threads always make my head spin.....

Why would they make your head spin, it states clearly that the law was 400 years later, which was at Mount Sinai? If it was from the begining, then Abraham would have had it, but from what is written he did not.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Firstfruits

MoreMercy
Oct 20th 2011, 05:09 AM
Hi Firstfruits,


Do you mean: "the corrections and fulfillment of Christ" -vs- the law's' of Moses ?


Father bless and have mercy on us.

ewq1938
Oct 20th 2011, 05:40 AM
Correction - Law of God. Let's not make what is holy common, OK?

Law of Moses is completely appropriate:


Jos_8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.

Jos_8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.

Jos_23:6 Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;

Jdg_4:11 Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh.

1Ki_2:3 And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:

2Ki_14:6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2Ki_23:25 And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him.

2Ch_23:18 Also Jehoiada appointed the offices of the house of the LORD by the hand of the priests the Levites, whom David had distributed in the house of the LORD, to offer the burnt offerings of the LORD, as it is written in the law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, as it was ordained by David.

2Ch_30:16 And they stood in their place after their manner, according to the law of Moses the man of God: the priests sprinkled the blood, which they received of the hand of the Levites.

Ezr_3:2 Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.

Ezr_7:6 This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his God upon him.

Neh_8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

Dan_9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Dan_9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

Mal_4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

Luk_2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

Luk_24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Joh_7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Act_13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Act_15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act_28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

1Co_9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

Law of Moses - 22 times in the bible


Jos_24:26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.

Neh_8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Neh_8:18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.

Neh_10:28 And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinims, and all they that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto the law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding;

Rom_7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom_7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Law of God - 7 times in the bible

Apparently God has no issue calling the law "the law of Moses", nor should we.

david
Oct 20th 2011, 06:00 AM
To me I think the law of Moses was the Word of God himself before he became the life-giving spirit. After the Word (Jesus) came down and died and resurrected, he became the life-giving spirit (1co 15.45). So you can say that Jesus changed from being the law of Moses into the law of Christ. The difference between the law of Moses and the Law of Christ is that the law of Moses killed people (because they could not keep it) but the law of Christ enlivened people (because his sacrifice made it able to give life). The former could not give life; the latter could.

MoreMercy
Oct 20th 2011, 06:04 AM
What a life giving discussion ! :pp :pp :pp


Father bless and have mercy on us.

Firstfruits
Oct 20th 2011, 07:59 AM
Hi Firstfruits,


Do you mean: "the corrections and fulfillment of Christ" -vs- the law's' of Moses ?


Father bless and have mercy on us.

I am talking about fulfilling or keeping the law law of Christ vs the law that God gave to Israel through Moses.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 20th 2011, 08:02 AM
Law of Moses is completely appropriate:


Jos_8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.

Jos_8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.

Jos_23:6 Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;

Jdg_4:11 Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh.

1Ki_2:3 And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:

2Ki_14:6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2Ki_23:25 And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him.

2Ch_23:18 Also Jehoiada appointed the offices of the house of the LORD by the hand of the priests the Levites, whom David had distributed in the house of the LORD, to offer the burnt offerings of the LORD, as it is written in the law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, as it was ordained by David.

2Ch_30:16 And they stood in their place after their manner, according to the law of Moses the man of God: the priests sprinkled the blood, which they received of the hand of the Levites.

Ezr_3:2 Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.

Ezr_7:6 This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his God upon him.

Neh_8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

Dan_9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Dan_9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

Mal_4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

Luk_2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

Luk_24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Joh_7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Act_13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Act_15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act_28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

1Co_9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

Law of Moses - 22 times in the bible


Jos_24:26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.

Neh_8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Neh_8:18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.

Neh_10:28 And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinims, and all they that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto the law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding;

Rom_7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom_7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Law of God - 7 times in the bible

Apparently God has no issue calling the law "the law of Moses", nor should we.

Amen!! Thanks ewq,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 20th 2011, 08:07 AM
To me I think the law of Moses was the Word of God himself before he became the life-giving spirit. After the Word (Jesus) came down and died and resurrected, he became the life-giving spirit (1co 15.45). So you can say that Jesus changed from being the law of Moses into the law of Christ. The difference between the law of Moses and the Law of Christ is that the law of Moses killed people (because they could not keep it) but the law of Christ enlivened people (because his sacrifice made it able to give life). The former could not give life; the latter could.

Thank you David,

I would just like to add that before Jesus came, the law was the means of being made righteous/holy with God.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Firstfruits

MoreMercy
Oct 20th 2011, 09:27 AM
I am talking about fulfilling or keeping the law law of Christ vs the law that God gave to Israel through Moses.
Thank you, Firstfruits.
I only have three more questions now, if you will indulge me further.
Please forgive my tendency to be so topically dependent upon God's word to prove what is good, true and worthy for me to hold on to.
I am a topical study zealot !

1: Would you consider obedience to Jesus's words in Matt 22:36-40 on the "greatest command" would you consider our obedience to that be fulfilling or keeping both the law-(singular) of Christ and at the same time fulfilling or keeping the law's'-(plural) of Moses... Or would you consider them two separate things, and both are not fulfilled or kept by our obedience to Christ's words in Matt 22:36-40 or not ?

note: Christ's same words also found in Mark 12:28-31 and Luke 10:25-27

2: But more importantly: would you define the word "love" as used by Christ in those passages Matt 22:36-40, Mark 12:28-31 and Luke 10:25-27 would you consider that word "love" used in those passages defined by John's definition of "love" found in John 14:15 or not ?




Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3: And since you also introduced Gal 6:2 in your reply to me, what would you consider the words
"one another's" found in Gal 6:2 defined by... Would you define "one another's" found in Gal 6:2 defined by brethren and would you define brethren by using Christ's words found in Matt 12:50 and Mark 3:35 or not ?


Father bless and have mercy on us.

Firstfruits
Oct 20th 2011, 11:41 AM
Thank you, Firstfruits.
I only have three more questions now, if you will indulge me further.
Please forgive my tendency to be so topically dependent upon God's word to prove what is good, true and worthy for me to hold on to.
I am a topical study zealot !

1: Would you consider obedience to Jesus's words in Matt 22:36-40 on the "greatest command" would you consider our obedience to that be fulfilling or keeping both the law-(singular) of Christ and at the same time fulfilling or keeping the law's'-(plural) of Moses... Or would you consider them two separate things, and both are not fulfilled or kept by our obedience to Christ's words in Matt 22:36-40 or not ?

note: Christ's same words also found in Mark 12:28-31 and Luke 10:25-27

2: But more importantly: would you define the word "love" as used by Christ in those passages Matt 22:36-40, Mark 12:28-31 and Luke 10:25-27 would you consider that word "love" used in those passages defined by John's definition of "love" found in John 14:15 or not ?



3: And since you also introduced Gal 6:2 in your reply to me, what would you consider the words
"one another's" found in Gal 6:2 defined by... Would you define "one another's" found in Gal 6:2 defined by brethren and would you define brethren by using Christ's words found in Matt 12:50 and Mark 3:35 or not?


Father bless and have mercy on us.


I would say that If I love God and love my neighbour that I was not keeping all the laws of Moses, however If I loved God and love my neoghbour I am fulfilling all the law of Christ.

The love commanded by Christ has the foundation in "HOW" we are to love, which is as he has commanded " As I Have Love You"

Jn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Does that answer your questions?

Forgot you third point. Yes I would apply Brethren.

Firstfruits

MoreMercy
Oct 20th 2011, 11:56 AM
I would say that If I love God and love my neighbour that I was not keeping all the laws of Moses, however If I loved God and love my neoghbour I am fulfilling all the law of Christ.

The love commanded by Christ has the foundation in "HOW" we are to love, which is as he has commanded " As I Have Love You"

Jn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Does that answer your questions?

Forgot you third point. Yes I would apply Brethren.

Firstfruits
Yes that answers my questions, thank you Firstfruits.

Although I do not understand why you exclude the law and the prophets as also being fulfilled in question #1 of mine, when Christ included them as being fulfilled in Matt 22, Mark 12 and in Luke 10.


Father bless and have mercy on us.

Firstfruits
Oct 20th 2011, 12:11 PM
Yes that answers my questions, thank you Firstfruits.

Although I do not understand why you exclude the law and the prophets as also being fulfilled in question #1 of mine, when Christ included them as being fulfilled in Matt 22, Mark 12 and in Luke 10.

Father bless and have mercy on us.

As with The law of Christ that is all that is required. The whole of what God requires is fulfilled with love.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Firstfruits

Longsufferer
Oct 20th 2011, 12:27 PM
We can behold the transformation from the law to grace in (John 8:5&7)

The law is judgment without mercy with no chance to repent.
But grace is mercy without judgment, and mercy rejoices against judgment unto repentance.

Firstfruits
Oct 20th 2011, 12:49 PM
We can behold the transformation from the law to grace in (John 8:5&7)

The law is judgment without mercy with no chance to repent.
But grace is mercy without judgment, and mercy rejoices against judgment unto repentance.

Thank you Longsufferer,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Oct 20th 2011, 01:29 PM
Firstfruits, a couple of questions:
1. Do you believe that Jesus is God?
2. Do you believe that obeying the 'law of Christ' makes you righteous?

Firstfruits
Oct 20th 2011, 01:52 PM
Firstfruits, a couple of questions:
1. Do you believe that Jesus is God?
2. Do you believe that obeying the 'law of Christ' makes you righteous?

With regards to the following scripture and many others concerning Jesus, the answer to your first question is yes.

Is 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

In answer to question 2, by faith in Christ we are declared righteous.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Oct 20th 2011, 02:27 PM
With regards to the following scripture and many others concerning Jesus, the answer to your first question is yes.
In answer to question 2, by faith in Christ we are declared righteous.Thank you. We actually agree on these two points.
I notice that you used John 5:19-20 in your answer. That being the case, I must assume that you also believe what those verses say, that all that Jesus said and did came directly from the Father.
So, logically, the law of Christ then would also be the law of God, since Christ IS God, and spoke only what He heard from the Father. Do you agree with that?

Also, you keep saying that the extent of the 'law of Christ' is to love God and neighbor as He did.
Can you explain exactly HOW Jesus loved us, and HOW he loved the Father?

Firstfruits
Oct 20th 2011, 03:05 PM
Thank you. We actually agree on these two points.
I notice that you used John 5:19-20 in your answer. That being the case, I must assume that you also believe what those verses say, that all that Jesus said and did came directly from the Father.
So, logically, the law of Christ then would also be the law of God, since Christ IS God, and spoke only what He heard from the Father. Do you agree with that?

Also, you keep saying that the extent of the 'law of Christ' is to love God and neighbor as He did.
Can you explain exactly HOW Jesus loved us, and HOW he loved the Father?

I agree with your first point.

The following should address your second point, let me know if you agree or not.

Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jn 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

1 Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1 Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

1 Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1 Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1 Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Oct 20th 2011, 03:43 PM
I agree with your first point.

The following should address your second point, let me know if you agree or not.

Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jn 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

1 Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1 Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

1 Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1 Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1 Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

FirstfruitsSo, from these verses you listed, one can see that the way Christ loved us was by laying down His life for us, to be the propitiation for our sins. So, if we are to love as He loved us, then, we must lay our lives down for Him or for others. I have not yet given my life, physically, for anyone, have you? Clearly not. So, either we have both missed the boat, or there is something more. 1 John 3:17 suggests that meeting our brother's need may be included. What do you think?
Is there more to Christ's love than dying, and meeting our need?

keck553
Oct 20th 2011, 04:08 PM
Why would they make your head spin, it states clearly that the law was 400 years later, which was at Mount Sinai? If it was from the begining, then Abraham would have had it, but from what is written he did not.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Firstfruits

God vs. God makes my head spin because Jesus Himself said a house divided can not stand. I do not understand your desire to pit God against Himself.

keck553
Oct 20th 2011, 04:13 PM
Law of Moses is completely appropriate:



Ahem...in proper context, yes. Paul calls the Law holy, that means it comes from God. In Biblical times, this was understood. These days many folks like to think it's man-made, therefore we need to define the understanding of the person using the term as an instrument of disobedience. The attempt to make it man-originated it an attempt to make the holy common.

keck553
Oct 20th 2011, 04:18 PM
As with The law of Christ that is all that is required. The whole of what God requires is fulfilled with love.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Firstfruits

Do you think you love as God requires?

This axiom (love your brother as yourself = the sum of the Law) originated with a Rabbi named Hillel. Are you a follower of Hillel then? Of course "love your brother" is in Leviticus, something you said was 'done away with,' so I'm not sure how you reconcile denying all but one verse in the Law, the one Hillel cited as a summary.....

keck553
Oct 20th 2011, 04:19 PM
Amen!! Thanks ewq,

Firstfruits

I still need to know what context you use the term in - Does the "Law of Moses" come from God or from a man? Please answer with one word.

david
Oct 20th 2011, 07:13 PM
The contrast between the "law of God" and the "law of Christ" can be seen in Romans 7. In verse 22 it says "I delight in the law of God.. but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in this members." Below that, it says "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" We know that Jesus Christ our Lord is the Law of Christ itself. So we see that the law of Christ is different from the law of God, because the law of Christ is the law that is saving us from our wretched condition of trying to keep the law of God but not being able to. Therefore, the law of God must be none other than the written law of Moses.

I know it sounds weird to say that the law of God is not the law of Christ, because I had a hard time accepting it. But looking at the facts, that's what Scripture/God is telling us.

MoreMercy
Oct 20th 2011, 08:12 PM
As with The law of Christ that is all that is required. The whole of what God requires is fulfilled with love.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Firstfruits
Thank you again Firstfruits and a big Amen to that !


Father bless and have mercy on us.

ewq1938
Oct 20th 2011, 10:03 PM
Ahem...in proper context, yes. Paul calls the Law holy, that means it comes from God. In Biblical times, this was understood. These days many folks like to think it's man-made, therefore we need to define the understanding of the person using the term as an instrument of disobedience. The attempt to make it man-originated it an attempt to make the holy common.

Referring to the law as "Moses' law" does not make it common. You are wrong. Even God calls the law Moses' law. Honestly, I don't know why I even bother.

keck553
Oct 20th 2011, 11:31 PM
Referring to the law as "Moses' law" does not make it common. You are wrong. Even God calls the law Moses' law. Honestly, I don't know why I even bother.

So don't. I didn't ask you to 'bother.' Now, kindly allow FF to answer my question.

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2011, 09:43 AM
I still need to know what context you use the term in - Does the "Law of Moses" come from God or from a man? Please answer with one word.

Why is there confusion over "The Law of Moses"

Jn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Jn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Jn 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Jn 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Jesus did not seem to have a problem with it.

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The law was given by Moses.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2011, 09:45 AM
Thank you again Firstfruits and a big Amen to that !


Father bless and have mercy on us.

You are welcome.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 21st 2011, 07:09 PM
Why is there confusion over "The Law of Moses"

Jn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Jn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Jn 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Jn 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Jesus did not seem to have a problem with it.

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The law was given by Moses.

Firstfruits

Im not confused. I just simply asked you a question - does the Law originate with Moses or with God? IOW, is the Law Holy or common? Jesus knew. Can't you just answer a simple question?

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2011, 09:20 PM
Im not confused. I just simply asked you a question - does the Law originate with Moses or with God? IOW, is the Law Holy or common? Jesus knew. Can't you just answer a simple question?

The law of Moses was given by God at Mount Sinai, the scriptures says that the law is holy. I believe the question has been answered, unless there is scripture stating otherwise.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 21st 2011, 09:46 PM
The law of Moses was given by God at Mount Sinai, the scriptures says that the law is holy. I believe the question has been answered, unless there is scripture stating otherwise.

Firstfruits

So then you agree that the Law is a 'snapshot' of righteousness

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2011, 09:52 PM
So then you agree that the Law is a 'snapshot' of righteousness

It was how Israel was made righteous, but Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness, now the just are to live by faith, and receive righteousness by faith in Christ.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 21st 2011, 11:03 PM
It was how Israel was made righteous, but Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness, now the just are to live by faith, and receive righteousness by faith in Christ.

Firstfruits

You're joking, right? Israel wasn't made righteous through the Law. How many times do you have to read about the captivity and the dispersion of Israel before you realize that? Where in the Bible do you read Israel was ever made righteous through the Law? God didn't say 'be perfect' He said "be Holy." There is a difference, you know.

Righteousness always came from faith and trust, just as much now as when Adam first stepped on soil.

david
Oct 21st 2011, 11:26 PM
It was how Israel was made righteous, but Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness, now the just are to live by faith, and receive righteousness by faith in Christ.


Firstfruits

The Gospel:

Before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them (Deuteronomy 27:26).” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4).” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them (Leviticus 18:5).”

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ. All who believe are justified by God's grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, who made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men, and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse on our behalf—for it is written, Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree (Deuteronomy 21:23), so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, and release those who because of the fear of death through all their life were held in slavery.

For it was fitting for him, for whom are all things and through him are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings. He has delivered us from the authority of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2011, 06:05 PM
You're joking, right? Israel wasn't made righteous through the Law. How many times do you have to read about the captivity and the dispersion of Israel before you realize that? Where in the Bible do you read Israel was ever made righteous through the Law? God didn't say 'be perfect' He said "be Holy." There is a difference, you know.

Righteousness always came from faith and trust, just as much now as when Adam first stepped on soil.

How then would you explain this scripture?

Deut 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Firstfruits

david
Oct 23rd 2011, 06:11 PM
How then would you explain thisn scripture?

Deut 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Firstfruits

Did you read this?:

"It is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.' Galatians 3:11 "
"There is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:22-23 "
"We have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one;' Romans 3:9-10 "

No one can be justified by the law or be made righteous by it. However, if anyone does keep the law wholly, they become righteous. But no one is able to do it, that's why it says no one is justified by the law.

Firstfruits
Oct 25th 2011, 01:06 PM
Did you read this?:

"It is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.' Galatians 3:11 "
"There is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:22-23 "
"We have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one;' Romans 3:9-10 "

No one can be justified by the law or be made righteous by it. However, if anyone does keep the law wholly, they become righteous. But no one is able to do it, that's why it says no one is justified by the law.

Yes I have, but we must remember that before Christ came Israel was under the law. Israel however could not keep it.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 25th 2011, 05:42 PM
How then would you explain this scripture?

Deut 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Firstfruits

Do you realize how Pharisee-like your questions are? All over the Bible God askes for our hearts. How is to you keep missing that?

Firstfruits
Oct 26th 2011, 03:17 PM
Do you realize how Pharisee-like your questions are? All over the Bible God askes for our hearts. How is to you keep missing that?

Are you saying that if Israel kept all the law as God had commanded they would not be righteous? If so there would be no need to say that Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness to those that believe.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Oct 26th 2011, 03:27 PM
Are you saying that if Israel kept all the law as God had commanded they would not be righteous? If so there would be no need to say that Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness to those that believe.

Firstfruits

I have beat that verse into submission several times before but, oh well, here we go again...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Christ was the mark we aim at, the point of aim for us. He kept the law perfectly and is our example. His life on earth shows us how to live. The word does NOT mean to put and end to, it means it is the end result. Doesn't take much scholarship to figure this one out.

Firstfruits
Oct 26th 2011, 03:32 PM
I have beat that verse into submission several times before but, oh well, here we go again...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Christ was the mark we aim at, the point of aim for us. He kept the law perfectly and is our example. His life on earth shows us how to live. The word does NOT mean to put and end to, it means it is the end result. Doesn't take much scholarship to figure this one out.

The key point here is "FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS".

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Oct 26th 2011, 03:38 PM
The key point here is "FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS".

Firstfruits

Read it this way...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the point of aim of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Now what does it say?

Firstfruits
Oct 26th 2011, 03:46 PM
Read it this way...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the point of aim of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Now what does it say?

I would rather leave it as it is meaning that we can no longer use the law for righteousness.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Oct 26th 2011, 03:59 PM
I would rather leave it as it is meaning that we can no longer use the law for righteousness.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Firstfruits

In other words..

Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up, if that KJV was good enough for the apostles, it is good enough for me.

Firstfruits
Oct 26th 2011, 04:10 PM
In other words..

Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up, if that KJV was good enough for the apostles, it is good enough for me.

No, I am saying that as it is written, now that Jesus has come we no longer use the law for righteousness.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 26th 2011, 07:20 PM
No, I am saying that as it is written, now that Jesus has come we no longer use the law for righteousness.

Firstfruits

What do you use for righteousnes?

ewq1938
Oct 26th 2011, 11:35 PM
I have beat that verse into submission several times before but, oh well, here we go again...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Christ was the mark we aim at, the point of aim for us. He kept the law perfectly and is our example. His life on earth shows us how to live. The word does NOT mean to put and end to, it means it is the end result.

Why not then use words found in the definition?


Rom 10:4 For Christ is the CONCLUSION of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

"end" is more than correct but if you prefer "conclusion" that also fine. Still ahve the exact same meaning, the end of the old law for Christians.


Rom 10:4 For Christ is the TERMINATOR of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I actually kind of like this wording, albeit I am partial to those movies lol

Firstfruits
Oct 27th 2011, 03:40 PM
What do you use for righteousnes?

The righteousness of God that Israel did not attain by keeping the righteousness of the law.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Oct 27th 2011, 03:58 PM
The righteousness of God that Israel did not attain by keeping the righteousness of the law.

Firstfruits

I think this might be more appropos...

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Firstfruits
Oct 27th 2011, 04:28 PM
I think this might be more appropos...

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Does this comply?

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 27th 2011, 07:53 PM
Are you saying that if Israel kept all the law as God had commanded they would not be righteous? If so there would be no need to say that Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness to those that believe.

Firstfruits

No one can keep anything without faith.

Firstfruits
Oct 28th 2011, 12:53 PM
No one can keep anything without faith.

If you are already righteous by faith in Christ by the grace of God, are you not complete and have full access to the throne of God?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Oct 28th 2011, 01:32 PM
If you are already righteous by faith in Christ by the grace of God, are you not complete and have full access to the throne of God?

Firstfruits

Regardless of your actions?

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Or you could do as Martin Luther and call this an epistle of straw.

keck553
Oct 28th 2011, 05:35 PM
If you are already righteous by faith in Christ by the grace of God, are you not complete and have full access to the throne of God?

Firstfruits

Is not the proof of faith good works? (James)

Firstfruits
Oct 31st 2011, 04:16 PM
Is not the proof of faith good works? (James)

But good works do not save you do they? Rather they accompany salvation, according to the scriptures.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 31st 2011, 04:19 PM
Regardless of your actions?

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Or you could do as Martin Luther and call this an epistle of straw.

Unfortunately not the works of the law.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 31st 2011, 05:14 PM
But good works do not save you do they? Rather they accompany salvation, according to the scriptures.

Firstfruits

I wasn't talking about salvation.

John 8:32
Oct 31st 2011, 07:07 PM
Unfortunately not the works of the law.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Firstfruits

What do bad works do for you? Can you be saved with bad works? Is a lawbreaking going to be in the Kingdom of God?

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Firstfruits
Nov 1st 2011, 11:02 AM
I wasn't talking about salvation.

Then what is the point of good works if not to accompany salvation?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 1st 2011, 11:04 AM
What do bad works do for you? Can you be saved with bad works? Is a lawbreaking going to be in the Kingdom of God?

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Is a law keeper going to be in the kingdom of God?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 1st 2011, 11:06 AM
Is a law keeper going to be in the kingdom of God?

Firstfruits

Is a law breaker going to be in the Kingdom of God?

Firstfruits
Nov 1st 2011, 11:10 AM
Is a law breaker going to be in the Kingdom of God?

If the law breaker in under the law then no.

Is a law keeper going to be in the kingdom of God?

Firstfruits

keck553
Nov 1st 2011, 09:28 PM
Jesus kept the Law. Is he in the kingdom of God?

Firstfruits
Nov 2nd 2011, 12:53 PM
Jesus kept the Law. Is he in the kingdom of God?

According to what is written Jesus is righteous/holy, and the law is not valid for a righteous man, but for the unrighteous/unholy.

1 Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Firstfruits

keck553
Nov 2nd 2011, 11:22 PM
According to what is written Jesus is righteous/holy, and the law is not valid for a righteous man, but for the unrighteous/unholy.

1 Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Firstfruits

I agree. A perfectly righteous man doesn't need the moral aspects of the Law. Do you know of anyone who fits that description? I don't mean righteous by declaration, I mean righteous in action. What do you think? the Law was not valid for Jesus, but He abided in every aspect of the Law. That being the case, a sinless righteous man abided in a Law given for the unrighteous? So if He did, why can't you?

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2011, 10:41 AM
I agree. A perfectly righteous man doesn't need the moral aspects of the Law. Do you know of anyone who fits that description? I don't mean righteous by declaration, I mean righteous in action. What do you think? the Law was not valid for Jesus, but He abided in every aspect of the Law. That being the case, a sinless righteous man abided in a Law given for the unrighteous? So if He did, why can't you?

If you are declared righteous by your faith in Christ Jesus, you are acceptable to God. By the body of Christ we are dead to sin. Sin has no dominion over those that are dead with Christ.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Are we therefore dead with Christ?

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Are we dead or alive?

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

If you believe that you are not dead in Christ then the law has dominion over you, so what then do you believe?

Are you dead or alive?

Firstfruits

keck553
Nov 3rd 2011, 03:47 PM
If you are declared righteous by your faith in Christ Jesus, you are acceptable to God. By the body of Christ we are dead to sin. Sin has no dominion over those that are dead with Christ.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Are we therefore dead with Christ?

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Are we dead or alive?

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

If you believe that you are not dead in Christ then the law has dominion over you, so what then do you believe?

Are you dead or alive?

Firstfruits

I believe you are out of context.

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2011, 04:28 PM
I believe you are out of context.

With the question I have asked and the scripture given, what do you believe is out of context, are we or are we not free from sin?

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Are we dead or alive?

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Nov 3rd 2011, 05:45 PM
With the question I have asked and the scripture given, what do you believe is out of context, are we or are we not free from sin?I hesitate to jump into this again, but I gotta ask FF, do you believe you can no longer sin now that you have 'died' in Christ and are 'free from sin'? That is what your question is suggesting.
And, BTW, we are alive, not dead. At least I am. I have been made alive in Christ, a new man.;)

keck553
Nov 3rd 2011, 06:30 PM
With the question I have asked and the scripture given, what do you believe is out of context, are we or are we not free from sin?

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Are we dead or alive?

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Firstfruits

Would you answer my question?

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2011, 09:46 AM
I hesitate to jump into this again, but I gotta ask FF, do you believe you can no longer sin now that you have 'died' in Christ and are 'free from sin'? That is what your question is suggesting.
And, BTW, we are alive, not dead. At least I am. I have been made alive in Christ, a new man.;)

It is possible to sin, even though we are free from sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I know that we are alive in Christ, but that does not take away that we do not have to sin.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2011, 09:48 AM
Would you answer my question?

Just as Jesus is dead to the law, so are we that are dead with him. So I cannot.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 4th 2011, 10:51 AM
It is possible to sin, even though we are free from sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I know that we are alive in Christ, but that does not take away that we do not have to sin.

Firstfruits

And sin is?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2011, 01:31 PM
And sin is?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If we do that which is of the flesh, then the law applies, because we are not abiding in Christ. If we abide in Christ the law does not apply as it does not apply to Christ Jesus, and we are one with Christ.

If the law applies to us, it must also apply to Jesus Christ.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 4th 2011, 01:34 PM
If we do that which is of the flesh, then the law applies, because we are not abiding in Christ. If we abide in Christ the law does not apply as it does not apply to Christ Jesus, and we are one with Christ.

If the law applies to us, it must also apply to Jesus Christ.

Firstfruits

And John, the apostle of love, says that sin is...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2011, 01:41 PM
And John, the apostle of love, says that sin is...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So your concern is sinning rather than righteousness?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 4th 2011, 01:46 PM
Firstfruits says...

The law is done away

Jesus Christ says...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

I think I have to go with the Creator of the universe including Firstfuits and myself on this one, but that's just me.

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2011, 02:05 PM
Firstfruits says...

The law is done away

Jesus Christ says...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

I think I have to go with the Creator of the universe including Firstfuits and myself on this one, but that's just me.

DEAD TO THE LAW: the law does not apply for those that are in Christ.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Firstfruits

keck553
Nov 4th 2011, 04:43 PM
Just as Jesus is dead to the law, so are we that are dead with him. So I cannot.

Firstfruits

Where in the Bible does it say Jesus is dead to God's Law?

keck553
Nov 4th 2011, 04:44 PM
So your concern is sinning rather than righteousness?

Firstfruits

So you think if you ignore sin, it will 'go away?'

keck553
Nov 4th 2011, 05:00 PM
DEAD TO THE LAW: the law does not apply for those that are in Christ.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Firstfruits

Love your neighbor does not apply to you?

Firstfruits
Nov 5th 2011, 12:47 PM
So you think if you ignore sin, it will 'go away?'

The reason for the law of Moses is because of sin, but if we are in Christ we are free from sin. Sin still exists but we are no longer slaves to sin. We must be sure to have on all the armour of God.

Firstfruits

keck553
Nov 7th 2011, 08:55 PM
The reason for the law of Moses is because of sin, but if we are in Christ we are free from sin. Sin still exists but we are no longer slaves to sin. We must be sure to have on all the armour of God.

Firstfruits

I sinned this morning (with my thoughts at least) when someone cut me off on the freeway. Do I suddenly not belong to Christ? Or perhaps I never did because I sinned once?

Have you sinned since you receiived Christ? Pauls calls believers to confess their sins? Were they not saved?

Firstfruits
Nov 10th 2011, 02:24 PM
I sinned this morning (with my thoughts at least) when someone cut me off on the freeway. Do I suddenly not belong to Christ? Or perhaps I never did because I sinned once?

Have you sinned since you receiived Christ? Pauls calls believers to confess their sins? Were they not saved?

What makes you believe that you sinned, were you tempted to do something you should not do?

Yes I have sinned, and not abided in Christ by doing so.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 10th 2011, 02:36 PM
cancel this reply

After reading what I wrote, it could have been read as being unkind.

keck553
Nov 10th 2011, 06:07 PM
What makes you believe that you sinned, were you tempted to do something you should not do?

Yes I have sinned, and not abided in Christ by doing so.

Firstfruits

Temptation is not a sin. Giving oneself over to it is. The drivers usually are pride and fear.

david
Nov 13th 2011, 06:42 AM
I would rather leave it as it is meaning that we can no longer use the law for righteousness.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Firstfruits

This is how I read that verse:

"Christ is the end of the law" - Christ is the end of the law because he fulfilled the law (see mt 5.17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.").

"for righteousness to everyone who believes." - This fulfillment means that we can now take Christ as our righteousness.

keck553
Nov 13th 2011, 10:23 PM
This is how I read that verse:

"Christ is the end of the law" - Christ is the end of the law because he fulfilled the law (see mt 5.17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.").

"for righteousness to everyone who believes." - This fulfillment means that we can now take Christ as our righteousness.

Does that mean you no longer need to love your neighbor (Lev19:18) because Jesus did it for you?

ewq1938
Nov 14th 2011, 12:34 AM
Does that mean you no longer need to love your neighbor (Lev19:18) because Jesus did it for you?

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

david
Nov 14th 2011, 03:35 AM
Does that mean you no longer need to love your neighbor (Lev19:18) because Jesus did it for you?


The law was fulfilled, but not abolished.
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17

We are not under law, but we have to so speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law.
“What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!” Romans 6:15
“So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.” James 2:12

So, to take Christ as our righteousness means believing in Jesus with works to back up the faith.
"Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? James 2:20 "
"I will show you my faith by my works. James 2:18 "

keck553
Nov 14th 2011, 04:31 PM
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So can you tell me what circumstances caused Hillel to combine all the commandments into Leviticus 19:18, and also can you tell me why Hillel continued to obey the Law after he made this observation?

keck553
Nov 14th 2011, 04:32 PM
The law was fulfilled, but not abolished.
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17

We are not under law, but we have to so speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law.
“What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!” Romans 6:15
“So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.” James 2:12

So, to take Christ as our righteousness means believing in Jesus with works to back up the faith.
"Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? James 2:20 "
"I will show you my faith by my works. James 2:18 "

Do you assume people who obey God's commandments have no faith? Are you a judge also then?

keck553
Nov 14th 2011, 04:49 PM
The reason for the law of Moses is because of sin, but if we are in Christ we are free from sin. Sin still exists but we are no longer slaves to sin. We must be sure to have on all the armour of God.

Firstfruits

I'm going to stop torturing you. There is only one verse in the Bible that is needed for you to prove your point -

"This is my Son, in whom I am well please. Listen to Him!"

david
Nov 15th 2011, 08:35 AM
Do you assume people who obey God's commandments have no faith? Are you a judge also then?

You seem to think that I meant we are not to obey God's commandments, but I didn't say that. read it again.

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2011, 02:34 PM
Temptation is not a sin. Giving oneself over to it is. The drivers usually are pride and fear.

Thanks Keck, I agree.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2011, 02:35 PM
This is how I read that verse:

"Christ is the end of the law" - Christ is the end of the law because he fulfilled the law (see mt 5.17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.").

"for righteousness to everyone who believes." - This fulfillment means that we can now take Christ as our righteousness.

The problem is that not all who Say Lord, Lord, believe.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2011, 02:37 PM
I'm going to stop torturing you. There is only one verse in the Bible that is needed for you to prove your point -

"This is my Son, in whom I am well please. Listen to Him!"

Many seem to listen to God, yet when it comes down to what Jesus said, his words are not heard.

Firstfruits

keck553
Nov 15th 2011, 04:44 PM
Many seem to listen to God, yet when it comes down to what Jesus said, his words are not heard.

Firstfruits

I think it is noteworthy when Peter recounts the transfiguration in his second letter, he leaves out Moses and Elijah. I think that is significant.

Sadly, I've not listened to Jesus myself, for which I ask the Lord for forgiveness.

John 8:32
Nov 15th 2011, 05:05 PM
Many seem to listen to God, yet when it comes down to what Jesus said, his words are not heard.

Firstfruits

Mar 7:7 and in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

david
Nov 15th 2011, 06:11 PM
The problem is that not all who Say Lord, Lord, believe.

Firstfruits

Yes, but was I talking about calling on the Lord? What does that have to do with this?

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2011, 10:05 AM
Yes, but was I talking about calling on the Lord? What does that have to do with this?

Not everyone that claims to believe in Jesus, believes that the law for righteousness has ended.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2011, 10:07 AM
I think it is noteworthy when Peter recounts the transfiguration in his second letter, he leaves out Moses and Elijah. I think that is significant.

Sadly, I've not listened to Jesus myself, for which I ask the Lord for forgiveness.

I believe it is a case of understanding the will of God, that Jesus was sent to do/fulfill.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2011, 10:10 AM
Mar 7:7 and in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

Even the words that Jesus has said are taken to mean other than what Jesus actually said, according to what God sent him to do.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 16th 2011, 11:59 AM
Even the words that Jesus has said are taken to mean other than what Jesus actually said, according to what God sent him to do.

Firstfruits

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

And people say the law is done away

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And people say the law is ended.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And people say 'Oh you can't keep that old law'.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And people say 'which commandments'? That is no new question, it was asked 2000 yrs ago and answered by Christ, Himself...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Here Christ plainly shows it is the Ten Commandments that we are to keep, but people reason around it.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2011, 03:09 PM
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

And people say the law is done away

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And people say the law is ended.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And people say 'Oh you can't keep that old law'.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And people say 'which commandments'? That is no new question, it was asked 2000 yrs ago and answered by Christ, Himself...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Here Christ plainly shows it is the Ten Commandments that we are to keep, but people reason around it.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus said that he came to fulfill. What he came to fulfull was the will of God, according to what is written concerning the Messiah.

Jn 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Jn 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Jn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Do we believe that Jesus truly finished the work of God he was sent to do?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 16th 2011, 04:59 PM
Jesus said that he came to fulfill. What he came to fulfull was the will of God, according to what is written concerning the Messiah.

Jn 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Jn 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Jn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Do we believe that Jesus truly finished the work of God he was sent to do?

Firstfruits

Do you believe that Jesus finished everything? Or did He just finish the work given Him for that time?

keck553
Nov 16th 2011, 05:42 PM
Do you believe that Jesus finished everything? Or did He just finish the work given Him for that time?

Doesn't Acts 1:1 give you an answer to that?

John 8:32
Nov 16th 2011, 07:02 PM
Doesn't Acts 1:1 give you an answer to that?

I was thinking in terms of...

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

I don't think the fat lady has sung in Acts 1:1

ewq1938
Nov 16th 2011, 09:14 PM
And people say 'which commandments'? That is no new question, it was asked 2000 yrs ago and answered by Christ, Himself...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Here Christ plainly shows it is the Ten Commandments that we are to keep, but people reason around it.


Reason around what exactly? Are you so sure TEN are so "plainly" being shown? Did you count them?

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

He asked which commandments to keep and this is Jesus' answer:


1: Thou shalt do no murder

2: Thou shalt not commit adultery

3: Thou shalt not steal

4: Thou shalt not bear false witness

5: Honour thy father and thy mother

6: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

SIX commandments, not ten.


Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

keck553
Nov 17th 2011, 12:51 AM
I was thinking in terms of...

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

I don't think the fat lady has sung in Acts 1:1

Well, that's another age (dispensation??). I thought we were still in this one.

Firstfruits
Nov 17th 2011, 08:56 AM
Do you believe that Jesus finished everything? Or did He just finish the work given Him for that time?

Jesus fulfilled all that God required of him regarding the establishment of salvation.

Jn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 17th 2011, 11:59 AM
Reason around what exactly? Are you so sure TEN are so "plainly" being shown? Did you count them?

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

He asked which commandments to keep and this is Jesus' answer:


1: Thou shalt do no murder

2: Thou shalt not commit adultery

3: Thou shalt not steal

4: Thou shalt not bear false witness

5: Honour thy father and thy mother

6: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

SIX commandments, not ten.


Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Well then, having other gods before God, having idols, taking God's name in vain and profaning His Sabbath must be OK then? I just don't think so. He was pointing out to this man to whom He was offering a discipleship, that He must put obedience to the commandments above all that he possessed. Notice that after Christ named some of the commandments...

Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

You think this guy didn't know that Christ was talking about the ten commandments as a whole?

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

ewq1938
Nov 18th 2011, 01:45 AM
Well then, having other gods before God, having idols, taking God's name in vain and profaning His Sabbath must be OK then?

That's all covered morally by the law of Christ. The point is you were wrong that the ten commandments were represented there because Christ only listed 6 of the 10 when asked which commandments needed to be obeyed. If Christ wanted the saturday sabbath to be kept, he could have said it as the 7th one to obey, but he left it out on purpose.




You think this guy didn't know that Christ was talking about the ten commandments as a whole?

Christ did not speak of all ten, and the man most likely understood that. The scriptures clearly list Christ naming 6 not 10.

Kahtar
Nov 18th 2011, 01:30 PM
That's all covered morally by the law of Christ. The point is you were wrong that the ten commandments were represented there because Christ only listed 6 of the 10 when asked which commandments needed to be obeyed. If Christ wanted the saturday sabbath to be kept, he could have said it as the 7th one to obey, but he left it out on purpose.:hmm:
He also left out
You shall have no other gods beside me
You shall not make or worship idols
You shall not take My Name in vain
So, by your logic, 'if Christ wanted them kept, He could have said it as the 8th, 9th, and tenth, but he left them out on purpose', meaning of course that we don't have to obey them. Because He left them out of this list, its now okay to worship any god we want, bow ourselves down to stones and blocks of wood, and commit sin 'in the Name of Jesus'.
For some reason, I don't believe you.

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 01:31 PM
Well then, having other gods before God, having idols, taking God's name in vain and profaning His Sabbath must be OK then? I just don't think so. He was pointing out to this man to whom He was offering a discipleship, that He must put obedience to the commandments above all that he possessed. Notice that after Christ named some of the commandments...

Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

You think this guy didn't know that Christ was talking about the ten commandments as a whole?

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

It is written that the new covenant did not start until Jesus died.

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Just as Christ is dead to the law so are those that are dead in Christ.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 01:32 PM
:hmm:
He also left out
You shall have no other gods beside me
You shall not make or worship idols
You shall not take My Name in vain
So, by your logic, 'if Christ wanted them kept, He could have said it as the 8th, 9th, and tenth, but he left them out on purpose', meaning of course that we don't have to obey them. Because He left them out of this list, its now okay to worship any god we want, bow ourselves down to stones and blocks of wood, and commit sin 'in the Name of Jesus'.
For some reason, I don't believe you.

You know, it is interesting, the anti-law sentiment only flares up over the fourth commandment doesn't it? Most do not seem to have any problem with the others, but that one sticks in the craw.

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 01:34 PM
:hmm:
He also left out
You shall have no other gods beside me
You shall not make or worship idols
You shall not take My Name in vain
So, by your logic, 'if Christ wanted them kept, He could have said it as the 8th, 9th, and tenth, but he left them out on purpose', meaning of course that we don't have to obey them. Because He left them out of this list, its now okay to worship any god we want, bow ourselves down to stones and blocks of wood, and commit sin 'in the Name of Jesus'.
For some reason, I don't believe you.

Actually although it is not okay to worship any god we want or steal, but we are free from the law.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 01:36 PM
It is written that the new covenant did not start until Jesus died.

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Just as Christ is dead to the law so are those that are dead in Christ.

Firstfruits

Your logic is very flawed here...

If you really believe that Heb 9:17 should be applied the way you think it should, consider this...

The first covenant would not be in effect until someone died. Christ died so now the first covenant is in effect. For the second covenant to be in effect, someone must die again (the second time) for the covenant to take effect. Christ is not going to die again.

Your logic doesn't work here. This is the danger of cherry picking verses (called proof texting) to prove your point of view.

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 01:39 PM
Your logic is very flawed here...

If you really believe that Heb 9:17 should be applied the way you think it should, consider this...

The first covenant would not be in effect until someone died. Christ died so now the first covenant is in effect. For the second covenant to be in effect, someone must die again (the second time) for the covenant to take effect. Christ is not going to die again.

Your logic doesn't work here. This is the danger of cherry picking verses (called proof texting) to prove your point of view.

Jesus is the new covenant, which did not start until Jesus died, fulfilling all that God sent Jesus to do.

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Nov 18th 2011, 01:41 PM
You know, it is interesting, the anti-law sentiment only flares up over the fourth commandment doesn't it? Most do not seem to have any problem with the others, but that one sticks in the craw. Yep, it is interesting.;)

Actually although it is not okay to worship any god we want or steal, but we are free from the law.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
FirstfruitsIt's kinda like when I was growing up, my momma gave me a law that said 'You WILL not play with matches, or else!' I of course learned the lesson the hard way, with the 'or else'. Nevertheless, I learned to obey that law. Now, I'm no longer under my mother's law, but guess what? I still don't play with matches. I still obey that law even though I'm not under it. Why? Because it's the right thing to do.
Same goes with stealing, lying, worshipping wood, etc. Those laws are in my heart. They're in yours too, if the Holy Spirit is in you.

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 01:44 PM
Jesus is the new covenant, which did not start until Jesus died, fulfilling all that God sent Jesus to do.

Firstfruits

But you said a testament cannot be in effect until the testator dies, how many times has Christ died? Once, how many testaments can be in effect? One! How many testaments are there? Two! So, again, by your logic, the second (New) testament is not in force yet until Christ dies again. That dog don't hunt.

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 01:47 PM
Yep, it is interesting.;)
It's kinda like when I was growing up, my momma gave me a law that said 'You WILL not play with matches, or else!' I of course learned the lesson the hard way, with the 'or else'. Nevertheless, I learned to obey that law. Now, I'm no longer under my mother's law, but guess what? I still don't play with matches. I still obey that law even though I'm not under it. Why? Because it's the right thing to do.
Same goes with stealing, lying, worshipping wood, etc. Those laws are in my heart. They're in yours too, if the Holy Spirit is in you.

When someone says that they are not under the law the question are asked if it is OK to kill , steal, serve other gods ect. to which that answer is no.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

We are free from obeying the works of the flesh.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 01:51 PM
When someone says that they are not under the law the question are asked if it is OK to kill , steal, serve other gods ect. to which that answer is no.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

We are free from obeying the works of the flesh.

Firstfruits

But if they do, it is not a sin and it is fine to do that because...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

If there is no law, there is no sin. The law simply defines what good and evil is, does that make you think of a tree and a very bad choice that was made?

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 02:02 PM
But if they do, it is not a sin and it is fine to do that because...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

If there is no law, there is no sin. The law simply defines what good and evil is, does that make you think of a tree and a very bad choice that was made?

If they do it then they are fulfilling the works of the flesh, and they are therefore not following the Spirit.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 02:07 PM
If they do it then they are fulfilling the works of the flesh, and they are therefore not following the Spirit.

Firstfruits

Don't matter if you call it a space shuttle, if there is no law, there is no sin, therefore if there is no law, one can behave in anyway he chooses...

Jdg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

How'd that work out for them?

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 02:10 PM
Don't matter if you call it a space shuttle, if there is no law, there is no sin, therefore if there is no law, one can behave in anyway he chooses...

Jdg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

How'd that work out for them?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Are you walking in the Spirit?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 02:27 PM
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Are you walking in the Spirit?

Firstfruits

If there is no law and no penalty for sin then it doesn't matter, now does it?

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 02:33 PM
If there is no law and no penalty for sin then it doesn't matter, now does it?

It sure does matter.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 02:40 PM
It sure does matter.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Firstfruits

Well, I think I can walk in the spirit and commit adultery, lie, steal, covet and kill, cause after all there is no law against it and Christ did it all for me didn't He?

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 02:41 PM
Where is the Ark?

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 02:56 PM
Well, I think I can walk in the spirit and commit adultery, lie, steal, covet and kill, cause after all there is no law against it and Christ did it all for me didn't He?

So the following means nothing then?

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 02:58 PM
Where is the Ark?

In regards to following the Spirit of God?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 02:59 PM
In regards to follwong the Spirit of God?

Firstfruits

Nope, where is the Ark located?

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 03:02 PM
Nope, where is the Ark located?

May I ask why we need to know where the ark is located when it comes to following the Spirit of God?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 03:09 PM
May I ask why we need to know where the ark is located when it comes to following the Spirit of God?

Firstfruits

Since you are unable or unwilling to answer...

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The Ark (the real Ark) is in heaven at God's throne. The Ark of the covenant Moses fashioned was a replica (a shadow of the real Ark). What was in the Ark?

Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

These things are in the Ark in heaven, else the representation is false and scripture cannot be trusted. Now what in the world are the tables of the covenant?

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The ten commandments reside in the Ark in heaven. You should be very careful about doing away with the law of God, He has them there under His mercy seat as a foundation for all eternity.

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 03:26 PM
Since you are unable or unwilling to answer...

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The Ark (the real Ark) is in heaven at God's throne. The Ark of the covenant Moses fashioned was a replica (a shadow of the real Ark). What was in the Ark?

Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

These things are in the Ark in heaven, else the representation is false and scripture cannot be trusted. Now what in the world are the tables of the covenant?

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The ten commandments reside in the Ark in heaven. You should be very careful about doing away with the law of God, He has them there under His mercy seat as a foundation for all eternity.

So tell us, what do you believe is the difference between following the Spirit of God and following the ten commandments?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 03:34 PM
So tell us, what do you believe is the difference between following the Spirit of God and following the ten commandments?

Firstfruits

None, one can with the aid of the spirit, perform the ten commandments...

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

It is not either/or, it is both...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The carnal (fleshly, unconverted) mind cannot be subject to the law of God, but the converted, spirit filled mind can. That is what the New Covenant is all about. That is what Heb 8 is all about. We can be changed from carnal, fleshly people who cannot do as God wishes us to do...

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

to the sons and daughters of God...

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 03:40 PM
None, one can with the aid of the spirit, perform the ten commandments...

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

It is not either/or, it is both...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The carnal (fleshly, unconverted) mind cannot be subject to the law of God, but the converted, spirit filled mind can. That is what the New Covenant is all about. That is what Heb 8 is all about. We can be changed from carnal, fleshly people who cannot do as God wishes us to do...

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

to the sons and daughters of God...

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

But according to what is written, if we are led of the Spirit we are not under the law, and if we are led of the Spirit there is no law. How then can there be no difference?

Is the law not of the flesh, which is contrary to the Spirit?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 03:44 PM
We know the fruit of the Spirit, but what are the fruit of the ten commandments?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 04:06 PM
But according to what is written, if we are led of the Spirit we are not under the law, and if we are led of the Spirit there is no law. How then can there be no difference?

If we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the law in the sense that we are not under the penalty of the law. Because we are forgiven and justified by the Blood of Christ, we are not condemned to death by the law.


Is the law not of the flesh, which is contrary to the Spirit?

Firstfruits

Nope!

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual, it is we who are fleshly. The word carnal simply means fleshly.

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 05:18 PM
If we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the law in the sense that we are not under the penalty of the law. Because we are forgiven and justified by the Blood of Christ, we are not condemned to death by the law.

Nope!

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual, it is we who are fleshly. The word carnal simply means fleshly.

The law is concerned with the flesh. We know what is the fruit of the Spirit, but please tell us what is the fruit of the law.

Firstfruits

keck553
Nov 18th 2011, 06:23 PM
The law is concerned with the flesh. We know what is the fruit of the Spirit, but please tell us what is the fruit of the law.

Firstfruits

Are you dead? If not, you are surrounded by flesh, and subject to all things concerning the flesh.

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 06:44 PM
The law is concerned with the flesh. We know what is the fruit of the Spirit, but please tell us what is the fruit of the law.

Firstfruits

You say the law is concerned with the flesh, Paul says the law is spiritual. My money's on Paul.

ewq1938
Nov 18th 2011, 07:00 PM
All that is covered by the law of Christ.



:hmm:
He also left out
You shall have no other gods beside me
You shall not make or worship idols
You shall not take My Name in vain
So, by your logic, 'if Christ wanted them kept, He could have said it as the 8th, 9th, and tenth, but he left them out on purpose', meaning of course that we don't have to obey them. Because He left them out of this list, its now okay to worship any god we want, bow ourselves down to stones and blocks of wood, and commit sin 'in the Name of Jesus'.
For some reason, I don't believe you.

Kahtar
Nov 18th 2011, 07:03 PM
The law is concerned with the flesh. We know what is the fruit of the Spirit, but please tell us what is the fruit of the law.
FirstfruitsThey are the same.
Fruit of the Spirit:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. Galatians 5:22-26
Fruit of the law:
Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:37-40
They look the same to me.

Kahtar
Nov 18th 2011, 07:07 PM
All that is covered by the law of Christ.
Christ IS God. The law of Christ and the law of God are the same, because THEY are the same.
If you obey the law of Christ, you are obeying the law of God.
Neither make you righteous or save you however.

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 07:10 PM
Christ IS God. The law of Christ and the law of God are the same, because THEY are the same.
If you obey the law of Christ, you are obeying the law of God.
Neither make you righteous or save you however.

Very good point here. Who was it that spoke the ten commandments at Sinai? It was Christ. And if these verses be true...

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

and they are, then what is the law of Christ? The same law He gave at Sinai.

ewq1938
Nov 18th 2011, 07:12 PM
The first covenant would not be in effect until someone died. Christ died so now the first covenant is in effect. For the second covenant to be in effect, someone must die again (the second time) for the covenant to take effect.

That's completely unscriptural:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.



The new covenant was a better one and established on better promises.




Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.





The first covenant had faults. If it would have had no faults then a second one would never have been created.




Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.



A new covenant not according to the original.




Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The first covenant was made "old" and decayed from "death".


2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The new Testament is the same as the new Covenant.


2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

That's the ten commandments.

2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

And here we see the ten commandments were "done away"...in favor of something that did not represent death but represented life! Something far more glorious than the old.

2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Plainly spoken indeed but will the message be accepted?

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

The vail causes those of Israel to be unable to see the end of that which was abolished, the first covenant, the law, including the ten commandments mentioned in verses 7 and 11.

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 07:13 PM
Christ IS God. The law of Christ and the law of God are the same, because THEY are the same.
If you obey the law of Christ, you are obeying the law of God.
Neither make you righteous or save you however.

This is absolute truth...

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

We are save by Christ's life. But we can lose eternal life through disobedience.

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 07:15 PM
That's completely unscriptural:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.



The new covenant was a better one and established on better promises.




Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.





The first covenant had faults. If it would have had no faults then a second one would never have been created.




Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.



A new covenant not according to the original.




Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The first covenant was made "old" and decayed from "death".


2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The new Testament is the same as the new Covenant.


2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

That's the ten commandments.

2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

And here we see the ten commandments were "done away"...in favor of something that did not represent death but represented life! Something far more glorious than the old.

2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Plainly spoken indeed but will the message be accepted?

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

The vail causes those of Israel to be unable to see the end of that which was abolished, the first covenant, the law, including the ten commandments mentioned in verses 7 and 11.

Well of course it is completely unscriptural, I was pointing out something completely different to FF.

ewq1938
Nov 18th 2011, 07:16 PM
Very good point here. Who was it that spoke the ten commandments at Sinai? It was Christ.

Proof of that belief?



and they are, then what is the law of Christ? The same law He gave at Sinai.

That's ignoring the entire new Testament. The law of Christ replaced the law of Moses and they are not the same. The law of Moses was barely a shadow of what the law of Christ is. The law of Moses has been "done away" 2Co 3:11

ewq1938
Nov 18th 2011, 07:16 PM
Well of course it is completely unscriptural, I was pointing out something completely different to FF.

Oh ok. It appeared you believe it.

Kahtar
Nov 18th 2011, 07:20 PM
That's ignoring the entire new Testament. The law of Christ replaced the law of Moses and they are not the same. The law of Moses was barely a shadow of what the law of Christ is. The law of Moses has been "done away" 2Co 3:11
Can you provide the list of the laws of Christ for us?

ewq1938
Nov 18th 2011, 07:22 PM
Christ IS God. The law of Christ and the law of God are the same, because THEY are the same.
If you obey the law of Christ, you are obeying the law of God.
Neither make you righteous or save you however.

Apparently it made these righteous:

Luk_1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

1Jn_3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

ewq1938
Nov 18th 2011, 07:24 PM
Can you provide the list of the laws of Christ for us?

I don't have a list compiled but it is found throughout the NT, especially in the gospels. All Christ's commandments, teachings, lessons and the 6 out of 10 original commandments.

John 8:32
Nov 18th 2011, 07:25 PM
Proof of that belief?

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.



That's ignoring the entire new Testament. The law of Christ replaced the law of Moses and they are not the same. The law of Moses was barely a shadow of what the law of Christ is. The law of Moses has been "done away" 2Co 3:11

The old covenant was replaced, not the ten commandments...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Well, just looked out and saw some dirt. Hmmm, the earth has not passed away and Christ has not returned so all is not fulfilled. You draw your own conclusion.

By the way, you are mishandling the scripute concerning the old covenant, the fault was not with the convenant...

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 07:29 PM
Are you dead? If not, you are surrounded by flesh, and subject to all things concerning the flesh.

Just as Christ is dead so are those that believe.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 07:30 PM
I don't have a list compiled but it is found throughout the NT, especially in the gospels. All Christ's commandments, teachings, lessons and the 6 out of 10 original commandments.

Christ is dead to the law, and so are all believers.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Firstfruits

keck553
Nov 18th 2011, 07:31 PM
Just as Christ is dead so are those that believe.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Firstfruits
Please answer my question. Do you have flesh or not right now?

ewq1938
Nov 18th 2011, 07:34 PM
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

And who is Christ saying this to?





The old covenant was replaced, not the ten commandments...

Yes the ten commandments are gone:

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The new Testament is the same as the new Covenant.


2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

That's the ten commandments.

2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

And here we see the ten commandments were "done away"...in favor of something that did not represent death but represented life! Something far more glorious than the old.

2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Plainly spoken indeed but will the message be accepted?

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Only those with a vail over their face (symbolic) cannot see that the ten commandments have been abolished. Don't worry, the best of all the old law has been brought into the law of Christ. Other things were simply fulfilled and some done away with altogether.





By the way, you are mishandling the scripute concerning the old covenant, the fault was not with the convenant...

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


Clearly both had faults.

Kahtar
Nov 18th 2011, 08:21 PM
Apparently it made these righteous:
Luk_1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Really? Zacharias and Elizabeth were made righteous by obeying the law of Christ? Jesus hadn't even been born yet. You must mean Moses's law made them righteous?


1Jn_3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.The law, be it God's or Christ's (they are the same) never made anyone righteous.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 2:21
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Galatians 3:21
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9
Doing righteousness because we are righteous is much different that being made righteous by doing righteousness.
We DO the righteousness of the law because we have been MADE righteous through faith in Christ.

Kahtar
Nov 18th 2011, 08:24 PM
I don't have a list compiled but it is found throughout the NT, especially in the gospels. All Christ's commandments, teachings, lessons and the 6 out of 10 original commandments.Of course you don't. You argue for the 'law of Christ' without even knowing what that law is. Or how it differs from the law of God. You argue for the New Covenant, but have no idea what the terms of that covenant are, or that there even are any terms.

ewq1938
Nov 18th 2011, 08:37 PM
Really? Zacharias and Elizabeth were made righteous by obeying the law of Christ? Jesus hadn't even been born yet. You must mean Moses's law made them righteous?

Of course that's what I mean. You said, "Neither make you righteous or save you however. " and if it isn't true about the old law, it certainly isnt true of the law of Christ.



The law, be it God's or Christ's (they are the same) never made anyone righteous.

Clearly that is wrong. Luk_1:6



I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 2:21

Righteous didn't come by the law but one could be righteous by keeping the law blamelessly like the two in the example previously posted. Furthermore we are told how this can occur "he that doeth righteousness is righteous"

ewq1938
Nov 18th 2011, 08:40 PM
Of course you don't. You argue for the 'law of Christ' without even knowing what that law is. Or how it differs from the law of God. You argue for the New Covenant, but have no idea what the terms of that covenant are, or that there even are any terms.

So you alone have decided that I:

1. Don't know what the law of Christ is.
and
2. Don't have any idea what the terms of new Covenant are.
and/or
3. Don't even know if there are any terms of it.

How nice of you to make all these judgments about me. Forget the topic, attack the other person personally? I suspect that tactic isn't going to work well for you.

keck553
Nov 18th 2011, 08:54 PM
So you alone have decided that I:

1. Don't know what the law of Christ is.
and
2. Don't have any idea what the terms of new Covenant are.
and/or
3. Don't even know if there are any terms of it.

How nice of you to make all these judgments about me. Forget the topic, attack the other person personally? I suspect that tactic isn't going to work well for you.

Most likely he's just responding to the content (or lack thereof) of your posts?

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 08:57 PM
[QUOTE=keck553;2770325]Please answer my question. Do you have flesh or not right now?[/QUOT

I guess that depends on what you believe?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Nov 18th 2011, 08:59 PM
So you alone have decided that I:
1. Don't know what the law of Christ is.
and
2. Don't have any idea what the terms of new Covenant are.
and/or
3. Don't even know if there are any terms of it.
How nice of you to make all these judgments about me. Forget the topic, attack the other person personally? I suspect that tactic isn't going to work well for you.Personal attack? No. You can take it that way of course.
If my 'judgment' is not correct, show me.

keck553
Nov 18th 2011, 09:10 PM
[QUOTE=keck553;2770325]Please answer my question. Do you have flesh or not right now?[/QUOT

I guess that depends on what you believe?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Firstfruits

stick your head in a bowl of water for 5 minutes and tell me you aren't made of flesh.

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2011, 09:31 PM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2770368]

stick your head in a bowl of water for 5 minutes and tell me you aren't made of flesh.

I take it you are not talking from a believers point of view, which would make us all in this physical body.

Does the following not apply to you?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Firstfruits

keck553
Nov 18th 2011, 10:16 PM
[QUOTE=keck553;2770373]

I take it you are not talking from a believers point of view, which would make us all in this physical body.

Does the following not apply to you?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Firstfruits

No, I am talking from a beleivers point of view. I know, as well as virtually every other believer in Christ that if I stick my head under water and breath deeply it will kill my flesh (which is a sin, by the way).

Firstfruits
Nov 19th 2011, 10:55 AM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2770377]

No, I am talking from a beleivers point of view. I know, as well as virtually every other believer in Christ that if I stick my head under water and breath deeply it will kill my flesh (which is a sin, by the way).

You appear to be more mindful of the flesh rather than of the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Firstfruits

keck553
Nov 19th 2011, 10:49 PM
[QUOTE=keck553;2770386]

You appear to be more mindful of the flesh rather than of the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Firstfruits

No, just pragmatic
I haven't been given a new resurrected body just yet.

Firstfruits
Nov 20th 2011, 03:21 PM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2770528]

No, just pragmatic
I haven't been given a new resurrected body just yet.

Should we not apply the folowing as believers?

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 21st 2011, 04:23 PM
As believers, are we not freed from sin by being in Christ?

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Nov 21st 2011, 04:31 PM
As believers, are we not freed from sin by being in Christ?
FirstfruitsNo, we're not. We are freed from the curse of sin, which is death. We still have the ability to sin. While our spirit is already seating with Christ in heavenly places, and cannot sin, yet we are still working out our salvation daily, still running the race. We did not lose the freedom to choose when we accepted Christ. We did not lose our free will.
Do YOU think you no longer sin? Really?
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

ewq1938
Nov 21st 2011, 09:15 PM
No, we're not. We are freed from the curse of sin, which is death.

And that protection is only from the second death, not the death of the human body.

Firstfruits
Nov 23rd 2011, 04:35 PM
No, we're not. We are freed from the curse of sin, which is death. We still have the ability to sin. While our spirit is already seating with Christ in heavenly places, and cannot sin, yet we are still working out our salvation daily, still running the race. We did not lose the freedom to choose when we accepted Christ. We did not lose our free will.
Do YOU think you no longer sin? Really?
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

It is written that we are, so should we accept what you say above what is written?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Nov 23rd 2011, 04:53 PM
It is written that we are, so should we accept what you say above what is written?
FirstfruitsNo, just accept what He wrote:
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:10

ewq1938
Nov 23rd 2011, 08:55 PM
He that is dead is freed from sin. He that is alive is not.



It is written that we are, so should we accept what you say above what is written?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Firstfruits

david
Nov 24th 2011, 12:32 AM
Firstfruits, it might help you to figure out what the Bible means by doing what it says: "I understand more than the aged, for I keep your precepts. Psalm 119:100 " I find that the more you do what the Word says, the more he'll reveal things to you. But the less you do the word, the less he'll reveal things to you. I found that there are certain things that every Christian must always do as much as they can. They are:
1. do good works (2th 3:10)
2. Be content in every situation (php 4.12);
3. Fear nothing but God (lk 12.4-7);
4. Read and meditate on the Word (Josh 1:8);
5. Pray for everyone (Ro 12.12);
6. Keep your conscience clear by repenting and confessing as needed (2ti 1:3);
7. Have fellowship with saints (He 10.25);
8. Preach Christ (2ti 4.2);
9. Rejoice in truth (php 4.4), giving thanks (Eph 5:20)
10. Remember Jesus' death (1co 11:25-26)

Also in prayer ask God for wisdom and guidance, and he'll definitely give it to you (James 1:5). just be sure to do these 10 things I listed constantly and I'm sure he'll show you the right way. As for people attacking each other on this forum, beware: "Do not take to heart all the things that people say, lest you hear your servant cursing you. Ecclesiastes 7:21 "

Here's what I think about sinning versus believing:
You cannot believe while sinning and you cannot sin while believing. if you sinned, you have stopped believing. if you believe again, you have stopped sinning. "Walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh (Galatians 5:16)." So you cannot believe while sinning. Therefore, if you ceased from sinning completely, that means you will never stop believing; this is true belief. the absence of sin is belief, because there is no one who is not sinning who is an unbeliever. If you coveted or did something sinful, that means you stopped believing.
"No one born of God commits sin, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot sin because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9
The one who is truly born of God will never sin again, because he has truly believed. They walk by the Spirit constantly without ceasing.

Firstfruits
Nov 24th 2011, 03:21 PM
With regards to the following scriptures, has Jesus forgiven our past sins? If our past sins are fogiven, do we have sin?

1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Please note that I am not saying that we cannot sin.

Firstfruits

david
Nov 24th 2011, 08:52 PM
With regards to the following scriptures, has Jesus forgiven our past sins? If our past sins are fogiven, do we have sin?

1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Please note that I am not saying that we cannot sin.

Firstfruits
This is what I think:
(begin opinion)
Jesus came and died once to bear the sins of past, present and future for all who believe into him:
"Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. Hebrews 9:25-28 "

"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:9-10

In the eternal view, if you are called by God, your sins are forgiven past present and future. But in the transient view, if you stop believing, you are sinning and your sins accumulate to make you unjustified again (John 3:36). If you are unjustified, you need to ask God for forgiveness because there's no other way to be justified again. If you don't ask for forgiveness, and you remain unjustified until the day of the Lord comes, then you will go to the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:5). It is actually hell for a thousand years (21:8). That's why we have to consistently ask for forgiveness by confessing and repenting.

Eternal life is a different matter from this. Eternal life is something we haven't received yet, because it is eternal. That's the key word. If life ended, then it would be no longer eternal. An example of someone who lived and died is this: "I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. Romans 7:9". So Paul, though he started out spiritually living, became dead. But he can regain his living status only if he believes into Jesus, and those who truly believe will never stop sinning eternally. Eternal life must include eternally not sinning.

Eternal life is promised to the called ones (1 John 2:25) but not given until we fully believe and never stop believing.

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 09:59 PM
With regards to the following scriptures, has Jesus forgiven our past sins? If our past sins are fogiven, do we have sin?

Not until we sin again, which could be seconds after being forgiven...

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 10:01 PM
This is what I think:
(begin opinion)
Jesus came and died once to bear the sins of past, present and future for all who believe into him:

Are you saying that if we repent today, any sins we commit tomorrow are already forgiven and we do not have to repent of those new sins? If yes, please prove it if you are able. Thank you.

david
Nov 24th 2011, 10:16 PM
Are you saying that if we repent today, any sins we commit tomorrow are already forgiven and we do not have to repent of those new sins? If yes, please prove it if you are able. Thank you.

No. You didn't even read the rest of my post, which answers this question.

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 10:21 PM
No. You didn't even read the rest of my post, which answers this question.

I've read the post twice. Nothing there answers my question so I must ask it a second time.

david
Nov 24th 2011, 11:09 PM
I've read the post twice. Nothing there answers my question so I must ask it a second time.

We can't repent for sins that occur tomorrow, because we don't even know about those sins yet. We have to repent as soon as we know we have sinned. We can be justified after repenting yet become unjustified again if we fail to repent for a new sin we committed. I'll give an example:

“Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” Matthew 18:23-35

This shows that one of Jesus' servants were justified after begging for forgiveness ("And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.") but then he became unjustified again after doing another sin, which is not forgiving someone who sinned against him ("But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’) He didn't clear this sin up by asking Jesus for forgiveness ("his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt.) so he remained unjustified ("And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. ")

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 11:17 PM
We can't repent for sins that occur tomorrow, because we don't even know about those sins yet.

Thank you .

Firstfruits
Nov 29th 2011, 04:25 PM
He that is dead is freed from sin. He that is alive is not.

So what does it mean to be baptized into Jesus Christ?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 29th 2011, 04:28 PM
Firstfruits, it might help you to figure out what the Bible means by doing what it says: "I understand more than the aged, for I keep your precepts. Psalm 119:100 " I find that the more you do what the Word says, the more he'll reveal things to you. But the less you do the word, the less he'll reveal things to you. I found that there are certain things that every Christian must always do as much as they can. They are:
1. do good works (2th 3:10)
2. Be content in every situation (php 4.12);
3. Fear nothing but God (lk 12.4-7);
4. Read and meditate on the Word (Josh 1:8);
5. Pray for everyone (Ro 12.12);
6. Keep your conscience clear by repenting and confessing as needed (2ti 1:3);
7. Have fellowship with saints (He 10.25);
8. Preach Christ (2ti 4.2);
9. Rejoice in truth (php 4.4), giving thanks (Eph 5:20)
10. Remember Jesus' death (1co 11:25-26)

Also in prayer ask God for wisdom and guidance, and he'll definitely give it to you (James 1:5). just be sure to do these 10 things I listed constantly and I'm sure he'll show you the right way. As for people attacking each other on this forum, beware: "Do not take to heart all the things that people say, lest you hear your servant cursing you. Ecclesiastes 7:21 "

Here's what I think about sinning versus believing:
You cannot believe while sinning and you cannot sin while believing. if you sinned, you have stopped believing. if you believe again, you have stopped sinning. "Walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh (Galatians 5:16)." So you cannot believe while sinning. Therefore, if you ceased from sinning completely, that means you will never stop believing; this is true belief. the absence of sin is belief, because there is no one who is not sinning who is an unbeliever. If you coveted or did something sinful, that means you stopped believing.
"No one born of God commits sin, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot sin because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9
The one who is truly born of God will never sin again, because he has truly believed. They walk by the Spirit constantly without ceasing.


How do we know that we are born of God?

If we are not born of God, then to whom do we belong?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 29th 2011, 04:46 PM
How do we know that we are born of God?

Take the hat pin test...

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

When you are actually born of the Spirit, you will be invisible to human eyes but your results can be detected. You are born by a resurrection from the dead.


If we are not born of God, then to whom do we belong?

Firstfruits

If you are begotten of God you belong to God. Our birth into the Kingdom comes at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Firstfruits
Nov 30th 2011, 01:27 PM
Take the hat pin test...

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

When you are actually born of the Spirit, you will be invisible to human eyes but your results can be detected. You are born by a resurrection from the dead.



If you are begotten of God you belong to God. Our birth into the Kingdom comes at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

How then would you explain the following scriptures?

1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 Jn 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 Jn 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

How can we be the sons of God if we are not born of God?

How can we be born of God if we are not born of the spirit?

Who do we belong to if we do not belong to God?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 30th 2011, 01:59 PM
How then would you explain the following scriptures?

1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Word can and does mean to beget or conceive in this application when we put it in context with 1 Cor 15:23


Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 Jn 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 Jn 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

How can we be the sons of God if we are not born of God?

We are the begotten sons of God. My son was my son, before his birth, while still in my wifes womb.


How can we be born of God if we are not born of the spirit?

Who do we belong to if we do not belong to God?

Firstfruits

Of course we belong to God as a begotten child of God and your obvious attempt to obfuscate the issue by twisting statements again is a dog that don't hunt.

Firstfruits
Nov 30th 2011, 04:30 PM
G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Word can and does mean to beget or conceive in this application when we put it in context with 1 Cor 15:23



We are the begotten sons of God. My son was my son, before his birth, while still in my wifes womb.



Of course we belong to God as a begotten child of God and your obvious attempt to obfuscate the issue by twisting statements again is a dog that don't hunt.


So we are then Born of the Spirit? (The Spirit of God).

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Nov 30th 2011, 04:35 PM
So we are then Born of the Spirit? (The Spirit of God).

Firstfruits

Yes, at just about the time you begin to reflect this verse...

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

david
Dec 1st 2011, 03:28 AM
How then would you explain the following scriptures?


1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


1 Jn 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.


1 Jn 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


How can we be the sons of God if we are not born of God?


How can we be born of God if we are not born of the spirit?


Who do we belong to if we do not belong to God?


Firstfruits


Be careful, being born of God may be different than being a son of God. See this passage:
"God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: 'How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.' They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, 'You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.' Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations! Psalm 82:1-8 "

And compare it with this passage: "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 1 John 3:9 "

We know that everyone born of God does not sin. Do the "sons of the Most High" in Psalm 82 sin? To me, they do. This I think proves that being "sons of God" is different from being "born of God." Being born of God may mean you have become God in perfection but being a son of God can mean you are still under God's guardianship and is not fully and essentially part of his "family" yet.

Note that these two verses added together mean that everyone who is born of God must be absolutely pure:
"Everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous ( that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Ephesians 5:5"
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5 "

Since no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they were pure, then this means that "being born of water and the Spirit" must include becoming pure.

It may not be that all of us are born of water and the Spirit now, even though we confess that Jesus is Lord and that he has been raised from the dead. Not all of us who say so are pure. Only those who are pure can enter the kingdom of God; hence, this means that those who are born of God are both pure and sinless.

david
Dec 1st 2011, 04:41 AM
This is how I read that verse:

"Christ is the end of the law" - Christ is the end of the law because he fulfilled the law (see mt 5.17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.").

"for righteousness to everyone who believes." - This fulfillment means that we can now take Christ as our righteousness.

I need to revise this post. It was totally wrong. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe into him. This means that whoever believes, then the law will be ended for them but they must believe until the end.

Firstfruits
Dec 1st 2011, 08:58 AM
I need to revise this post. It was totally wrong. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe into him. This means that whoever believes, then the law will be ended for them but they must believe until the end.

Amen David!!!!!

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 1st 2011, 09:02 AM
Be careful, being born of God may be different than being a son of God. See this passage:
"God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: 'How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.' They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, 'You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.' Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations! Psalm 82:1-8 "

And compare it with this passage: "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 1 John 3:9 "

We know that everyone born of God does not sin. Do the "sons of the Most High" in Psalm 82 sin? To me, they do. This I think proves that being "sons of God" is different from being "born of God." Being born of God may mean you have become God in perfection but being a son of God can mean you are still under God's guardianship and is not fully and essentially part of his "family" yet.

Note that these two verses added together mean that everyone who is born of God must be absolutely pure:
"Everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous ( that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Ephesians 5:5"
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5 "

Since no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they were pure, then this means that "being born of water and the Spirit" must include becoming pure.

It may not be that all of us are born of water and the Spirit now, even though we confess that Jesus is Lord and that he has been raised from the dead. Not all of us who say so are pure. Only those who are pure can enter the kingdom of God; hence, this means that those who are born of God are both pure and sinless.

If we are joint heirs with Jesus, what is the difference, Jesus died, so will we, if our sins are forgiven, can we say we are not pure, or that the blood of Jesus has not cleansed us of all sin/unrighteousness?

Firstfruits

david
Dec 1st 2011, 09:22 AM
If we are joint heirs with Jesus, what is the difference, Jesus died, so will we, if our sins are forgiven, can we say we are not pure, or that the blood of Jesus has not cleansed us of all sin/unrighteousness?

Firstfruits
Well, having our sins being forgiven is not enough to be righteous. There are three parts to being righteous. 1. believing that Jesus died for your sins 2. repenting and confessing your sins to remain cleansed and 3. doing God's commandments constantly. When you sin, you incur a debt. This debt must be washed away by simply asking God for forgiveness, remembering that he died for your sins (1 John 1:9). Without Jesus' shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness and hence no clearance of sins. Then once you ask for forgiveness you have to stop sinning until the end. But if you slip, just ask God for forgiveness again. Paul himself said that he wasn't perfected yet at the time of Phillipians 3:12, so even then I don't think he was born of God at that time because he wasn't perfect. But he probably became perfected by the time of 2 Timothy 4:7.

In the eternal view all of us who were called eventually get perfected. It's just that some who do not overcome by the end of this age do not get to enter the kingdom for the next age. But all of us who were called will enter the New Jerusalem in the end, with every single one of us being totally perfected without spot or blemish.

Firstfruits
Dec 1st 2011, 12:33 PM
Well, having our sins being forgiven is not enough to be righteous. There are three parts to being righteous. 1. believing that Jesus died for your sins 2. repenting and confessing your sins to remain cleansed and 3. doing God's commandments constantly. When you sin, you incur a debt. This debt must be washed away by simply asking God for forgiveness, remembering that he died for your sins (1 John 1:9). Without Jesus' shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness and hence no clearance of sins. Then once you ask for forgiveness you have to stop sinning until the end. But if you slip, just ask God for forgiveness again. Paul himself said that he wasn't perfected yet at the time of Phillipians 3:12, so even then I don't think he was born of God at that time because he wasn't perfect. But he probably became perfected by the time of 2 Timothy 4:7.

In the eternal view all of us who were called eventually get perfected. It's just that some who do not overcome by the end of this age do not get to enter the kingdom for the next age. But all of us who were called will enter the New Jerusalem in the end, with every single one of us being totally perfected without spot or blemish.

Your third point, according to the following scripture is invalid for righteousness.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Firstfruits

david
Dec 1st 2011, 05:55 PM
Your third point, according to the following scripture is invalid for righteousness.Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Firstfruits

This is how I got my third point: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James 2:14-17 "
This is the love of God, that we keep his commandments." 1 John 5:3

Romans 3 is talking about people who try to justify themselves to get eternal life. But what you really have to do to get eternal life is those three points I told you. The difference between believers and unbelievers is that unbelievers do only the latter two points but not the first one, which is not enough to be righteous.

Also note that James, Paul, and Jesus all say to do the law.

Here is Paul: “You were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:13-14

Here is James: "The one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing." James 1:25

And here is Jesus: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:17-19

Firstfruits
Dec 2nd 2011, 09:58 AM
This is how I got my third point: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James 2:14-17 "
This is the love of God, that we keep his commandments." 1 John 5:3

Romans 3 is talking about people who try to justify themselves to get eternal life. But what you really have to do to get eternal life is those three points I told you. The difference between believers and unbelievers is that unbelievers do only the latter two points but not the first one, which is not enough to be righteous.

Also note that James, Paul, and Jesus all say to do the law.

Here is Paul: “You were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:13-14

Here is James: "The one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing." James 1:25

And here is Jesus: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:17-19

Regarding eternal life, what has God commanded us? How do we obtain eternal life?

Firstfruits

John 8:32
Dec 2nd 2011, 11:53 AM
Regarding eternal life, what has God commanded us? How do we obtain eternal life?

Firstfruits

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Not what you wanted to hear.

david
Dec 2nd 2011, 06:41 PM
Regarding eternal life, what has God commanded us? How do we obtain eternal life?

Firstfruits

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. John 6:47 "
Believing = hearing and doing the Word. It's not just hearing the Word. "Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing." James 1:22-25

Note that "the law of liberty" here is actually Moses' law (minus the ordinances like circumcision, sacrificial offerings, etc because these were abolished according to Ephesians 2:15 and Hebrews 10:9) (see James 2:12).

Firstfruits
Dec 6th 2011, 02:27 PM
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Not what you wanted to hear.

By which commandments are we promised eternal life?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 6th 2011, 02:28 PM
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. John 6:47 "
Believing = hearing and doing the Word. It's not just hearing the Word. "Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing." James 1:22-25

Note that "the law of liberty" here is actually Moses' law (minus the ordinances like circumcision, sacrificial offerings, etc because these were abolished according to Ephesians 2:15 and Hebrews 10:9) (see James 2:12).

Is there a promise of eternal life by keeping the law of Moses?

Firstfruits

david
Dec 6th 2011, 08:01 PM
Is there a promise of eternal life by keeping the law of Moses?

Firstfruits

The "promise" of eternal life cannot be found in the law of Moses, but in the law of the Spirit of life, which we are under.
Gaining eternal life can only be done through doing good works. But before you say "you are supporting salvation by works," read this passage:

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11

This shows that everyone no matter who you are or what you believe in, if you do good works you get eternal life, and if you do evil works you get condemnation. Now we know that this statement is true:
"We know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." Galatians 2:16

Nobody is justified by trying to do works of the law on their own. So we can see there are two types of "works" here: works done to justify oneself, and works proceeding from faith. The former "works" is independent from God; the latter "works" is done with God and are from God (Philippians 2:13). Whoever truly believes does good works, as proven here:
"faith apart from works is dead." James 2:26

So if salvation is only by faith, why is Romans 2:6-11 saying that we have to do good works to have eternal life? The only answer is that doing good works IS having faith. Faith is good works and good works is faith. They cannot be separated from one another, neither are they different from one another. When you are having faith, that is the good work you are doing. Yet it isn't us doing it because it says "this is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent (John 6:29)." This shows that our faith is the work of God, not man. Because faith is the work of God and not men, we can take absolutely no credit for our faith, because if we did then we would be saying "I did all the work to gain eternal life." This scripture confirms it, "By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).."

So when I say "we must work for eternal life," I really mean "we must believe for eternal life." To believe of course is not to simply hear the Word and go away and not do it. To believe is to do all the commandments you were given.
"Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the stream broke against it, immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:47-49

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-20

Firstfruits
Dec 7th 2011, 10:11 AM
The "promise" of eternal life cannot be found in the law of Moses, but in the law of the Spirit of life, which we are under.
Gaining eternal life can only be done through doing good works. But before you say "you are supporting salvation by works," read this passage:

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11

This shows that everyone no matter who you are or what you believe in, if you do good works you get eternal life, and if you do evil works you get condemnation. Now we know that this statement is true:
"We know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." Galatians 2:16

Nobody is justified by trying to do works of the law on their own. So we can see there are two types of "works" here: works done to justify oneself, and works proceeding from faith. The former "works" is independent from God; the latter "works" is done with God and are from God (Philippians 2:13). Whoever truly believes does good works, as proven here:
"faith apart from works is dead." James 2:26

So if salvation is only by faith, why is Romans 2:6-11 saying that we have to do good works to have eternal life? The only answer is that doing good works IS having faith. Faith is good works and good works is faith. They cannot be separated from one another, neither are they different from one another. When you are having faith, that is the good work you are doing. Yet it isn't us doing it because it says "this is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent (John 6:29)." This shows that our faith is the work of God, not man. Because faith is the work of God and not men, we can take absolutely no credit for our faith, because if we did then we would be saying "I did all the work to gain eternal life." This scripture confirms it, "By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).."

So when I say "we must work for eternal life," I really mean "we must believe for eternal life." To believe of course is not to simply hear the Word and go away and not do it. To believe is to do all the commandments you were given.
"Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the stream broke against it, immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:47-49

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-20


Are the commands we are to follow those according to the law of Moses, or that which Jesus has commanded us through his disciples?

Firstfruits