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Godskingdom
Oct 24th 2011, 10:53 AM
Revelation 7: 2-4 links with revelation 14: 1-4 'a hundred and forty four thousand' and rev 7: 4-9 states that these hundred and forty four thousand will come from all the nations and tribes, peoples and tounges standing before the throne and before the lamb (Jesus Christ)these hundred and forty four thousand going to rule in heaven with Jesus??
:hmm:

Adstars
Oct 24th 2011, 12:05 PM
I do not believe they do link. The 144,000 are Israelites 12,000 from each tribe they are the remnant talked about in OT prophecy. I don't see the 144,000 as saints but innocent Jews saved from destruction.

Revelation 4
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;[a]
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

The first group are clearly numbered and identified as being from specific Israeli tribes. The second great multitude no one could number. Clearly the Book of revelation is revealing two different groups of people. The 144,000 innocents descendants of Israel being one and the tribulated Saints being the other.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

BroRog
Oct 25th 2011, 01:21 AM
Revelation 7: 2-4 links with revelation 14: 1-4 'a hundred and forty four thousand' and rev 7: 4-9 states that these hundred and forty four thousand will come from all the nations and tribes, peoples and tounges standing before the throne and before the lamb (Jesus Christ)these hundred and forty four thousand going to rule in heaven with Jesus??
:hmm:I don't think so. Jesus is on Zion, not in heaven, when he meets with the 144,000.

ZDOxcar
Oct 25th 2011, 02:11 AM
Revelation 7: 2-4 links with revelation 14: 1-4 'a hundred and forty four thousand' and rev 7: 4-9 states that these hundred and forty four thousand will come from all the nations and tribes, peoples and tounges standing before the throne and before the lamb (Jesus Christ)these hundred and forty four thousand going to rule in heaven with Jesus??
:hmm:

The 144000 aren't from all nations and tribes (Rev 7:3-8 and Rev 7:9-15 are two different groups, the one in 7:3-8 is countable, while the one in 7:9-15 is uncountable, the one in 7:3-8 are Jewish Christians, while the ones in 7:9-15 are Christians from all nations and tribes).

The ones in 7:3-8 (i.e. the 144000) will reign with Christ since they follow the Lamb (14:4), they were purchased by Christ (14:4), and they have already been redeemed from the earth by Christ (14:3).

Note that these verses 7:3-8 and 14:1-5 is NOT saying that there are only 144000 that will reign with Christ (after all we know from 7:9-15 that the total number of saints will be completely innumerable!!!)

episkopos
Oct 25th 2011, 02:31 AM
I do not believe they do link. The 144,000 are Israelites 12,000 from each tribe they are the remnant talked about in OT prophecy. I don't see the 144,000 as saints but innocent Jews saved from destruction.

Revelation 4
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;[a]
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

The first group are clearly numbered and identified as being from specific Israeli tribes. The second great multitude no one could number. Clearly the Book of revelation is revealing two different groups of people. The 144,000 innocents descendants of Israel being one and the tribulated Saints being the other.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days



Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


The 144,000 are not ethnic Jews only....but are gathered from among all men...This is stated twice! In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free...unless you think the gospel has no place in the kingdom.

episkopos
Oct 25th 2011, 02:34 AM
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Is not natural Judea included in ALL NATIONS? With Christ there are no favourites.

BroRog
Oct 25th 2011, 03:45 AM
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


The 144,000 are not ethnic Jews only....but are gathered from among all men...This is stated twice! In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free...unless you think the gospel has no place in the kingdom.Let's look at this a little closer. When it says, "which were redeemed from the earth" it isn't telling us what planet from which they will come. The "earth" is where the Jews were in exile when they were taken captive in the Jewish wars of the first century as Jesus predicted. So when it says they were redeemed "from" the earth, it is talking about how the Jews will be/were regathered back into their homeland to meet Jesus on Mt. Zion.

In chapter 7, where the 144,000 are first mentioned it says that angels held back the winds from blowing on the earth. This is another reference to the end of the exile. When the winds blew, the winds sent the people into the nations to live among the nations during their exile. When the winds stop blowing, the Jews are allowed to return to the land of their fathers.

When it says they were redeemed from among men, it relies on our knowing that the Jews were previously sent into the world to live among the rest of mankind, and that during the time when the prophecy will be fulfilled these Jewish believers will come out from among the rest of humanity to gather again in the land of their fathers to worship God on Mt.Zion with Jesus.

ewq1938
Oct 25th 2011, 04:23 AM
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


The 144,000 are not ethnic Jews only....but are gathered from among all men...This is stated twice! In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free...unless you think the gospel has no place in the kingdom.

No, it doesn't state it a single time. They are ethnic Jews, down to the very tribe they are from. They are Jews racially and Christians religiously.

"These were redeemed from among men" can only mean they were "paid for" and removed from mankind. In a previous verse it states, "which were redeemed from the earth".

This does not mean nor can it mean they are from non-Jewish heritage.

Raybob
Oct 25th 2011, 09:26 AM
No, it doesn't state it a single time. They are ethnic Jews, down to the very tribe they are from. They are Jews racially and Christians religiously.

"These were redeemed from among men" can only mean they were "paid for" and removed from mankind. In a previous verse it states, "which were redeemed from the earth".

This does not mean nor can it mean they are from non-Jewish heritage.How can you say this? God isn't a racist, since the cross.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:28)

If they are redeemed from among men, on the earth, that can only mean they are Christians because only Christ can redeem and set us 'apart'. This is what being "called out" is.

ewq1938
Oct 25th 2011, 09:38 AM
How can you say this? God isn't a racist, since the cross.

God was "racist" before it??

Since then? Shame on you to imply anything more.



There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:28)

A weak, or the weakest "argument" that I have ever seen.





If they are redeemed from among men, on the earth, that can only mean they are Christians because only Christ can redeem and set us 'apart'. This is what being "called out" is.

They are indeed Christians. How can you get that right but miss so badly on the other?

Raybob
Oct 25th 2011, 09:53 AM
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:28)
...A weak, or the weakest "argument" that I have ever seen.
..So you believe there's a difference between a saved gentile and a saved Jew? Did you know I am a saved Jew? My grandfather studied to be a Rabi at Hebrew Union College. I'm the only saved person, I know of, from my family. Does this make me special in your eyes, in some ways 'set apart' from other Christians??? I beg to differ.

ewq1938
Oct 25th 2011, 10:04 AM
So you believe there's a difference between a saved gentile and a saved Jew?

No, but what I would like is that you to address my points, point by point, as I have yours. God "clearly" speaks of Jews down to the actual tribe from their birth. You claim any race of person can qualify for this...laughable if I could laugh at such error.




Did you know I am a saved Jew?

No but congrats! That's a good thing!



My grandfather studied to be a Rabi at Hebrew Union College. I'm the only saved person, I know of, from my family. Does this make me special in your eyes, in some ways 'set apart' from other Christians??? I beg to differ.

See above, and I mean, above above.

Raybob
Oct 25th 2011, 10:23 AM
:no:
No, but what I would like is that you to address my points, point by point, as I have yours. God "clearly" speaks of Jews down to the actual tribe from their birth. You claim any race of person can qualify for this...laughable if I could laugh at such error...Speaking of error, I'm sure I have relatives from the tribe of Dan. I don't see them listed. They are listed in the OT but they sure aren't even mentioned in Revelation. What does that say about anyone from the tribe of Dan that gets saved???

Do you believe in a rapture? Will I, as a saved Jew, be raptured? Will I have some 'special calling' so I won't be raptured when Jesus comes for His church?

I'd address points but I don't see any. What's the point?

ewq1938
Oct 26th 2011, 12:55 AM
:no:Speaking of error, I'm sure I have relatives from the tribe of Dan. I don't see them listed. They are listed in the OT but they sure aren't even mentioned in Revelation.

Don't charge the scriptures with error.



What does that say about anyone from the tribe of Dan that gets saved???

Doesn't mean anything. They simply aren't chosen to be sealed in the end times.


Do you believe in a rapture?

"a" rapture/gathering, yes...post trib.



Will I, as a saved Jew, be raptured?

Racial identity is very minor compared to religious identity. You're a Christian and at that time, God will "rapture" those who are worthy.



Will I have some 'special calling' so I won't be raptured when Jesus comes for His church?

Totally up to God but my advice is to not even worry about such things. Follow Christ and everything will happen as God decides.


I'd address points but I don't see any. What's the point?

The point was the 144k are only Christian Jews from those tribes. Non-JEws who are Christians simply aren't chosen for that specific role.

Raybob
Oct 26th 2011, 02:30 AM
Don't charge the scriptures with error.
I did no such thing. There is no error here. This list of tribes is NOT the same 12 tribes of Israel found in the old testament.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
(Rev 7:4-8)

ewq1938
Oct 26th 2011, 02:37 AM
I did no such thing. There is no error here. This list of tribes is NOT the same 12 tribes of Israel found in the old testament.

Then you worded it badly since you said:

"Speaking of error" and then went on about how Dan is missing from Revelation. There is no error. Dan was removed from the Tribes of Israel. Reminds me how Judas was replaced.

I guess the ones of Dan wouldn't be Jewish anymore based on that.

Does anyone know why Dan was removed?

Raybob
Oct 26th 2011, 03:21 AM
Then you worded it badly since you said:

"Speaking of error" and then went on about how Dan is missing from Revelation. There is no error. Dan was removed from the Tribes of Israel. ..Not up to Chronicles 30. Where do you see them removed???

So they established a decree to make proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beersheba even to Dan, that they should come to keep the passover unto the LORD God of Israel at Jerusalem: for they had not done it of a long time in such sort as it was written.
(2Ch 30:5)

ewq1938
Oct 26th 2011, 03:25 AM
Not up to Chronicles 30. Where do you see them removed???

Are you ok?? Is there anything wrong with you or do more than one person use this account?

You are the one that mentioned them missing in Rev.


They are listed in the OT but they sure aren't even mentioned in Revelation.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Dan is no longer considered a tribe of Israel by this time.

Raybob
Oct 26th 2011, 03:29 AM
...Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Dan is no longer considered a tribe of Israel by this time.Dan is/was/and always will be a tribe of Israel. This is how we know that Revelation is symbolic, and cannot possibly be literal.

ewq1938
Oct 26th 2011, 03:31 AM
Dan is/was/and always will be a tribe of Israel. This is how we know that Revelation is symbolic, and cannot possibly be literal.


lol......ok then.

Adstars
Oct 26th 2011, 10:47 AM
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


The 144,000 are not ethnic Jews only....but are gathered from among all men...This is stated twice! In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free...unless you think the gospel has no place in the kingdom.

They are descendants of Abraham as clearly stated. You don't twist scripture to fit it into your understanding. These are innocents and therefore they have no knowledge of Good and evil and therefore are redeemed to live in the Kingdom Jesus founds on the earth. Of course they are joined by the saints of the Gospel. If you think that God is only going to save 144,000 then that is very sad when the same scripture i quoted says the other group where so many that they could not be numbered. Why can’t people read what the bible actually says and accept it with meekness instead of using their own minds and honouring the thoughts of other men?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstars
Oct 26th 2011, 10:50 AM
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Is not natural Judea included in ALL NATIONS? With Christ there are no favourites.

Yes.. There you go, the second group that no one could number a different group that the 144,000 that clearly could be numbered because their number is given 12,000 from each tribe of Israel.

Clear as day.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

David 001
Oct 28th 2011, 09:18 AM
There are two groups being spoken of in Revelation regarding the 144,000, but there are not two groups of 144,000. This is one group, and it is the Bride.

The two mistakes being made here is in the interpretation of those that were numbered, and those that no one could number, and what the number 144,000 represents.

First, the ones that were numbered in Revelation 7:4 were the Israelites in the Old Testament up until the time Jesus brought us salvation by grace. These were the ones that were resurrected on the day of Pentecost to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That number of people will not increase. Those that would resurrect from the Old Testament did resurrect. No one else from the Old Testament is going to resurrect to receive the Holy Ghost. Thus, that number is known, or it is a completed number.

Those that no one could number in Revelation 7:9 are the Gentiles saved by grace. This number is not known because there are still people being saved today, and people that will be saved in the future. This is why no one can number them.

The number 144,000 not a literal number, but a symbolic number. The number 12 is always a number of judgement in the Bible. That is why there were 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles, etc.

There are two groups of people that will be taken to be in the Bride. One group from the O.T., one group from the N.T. Each group will be part of the Bride that judges the earth with Christ for 1,000 years.

12 X 12 X 1,000 = 144,000.
The first 12 are the O.T. saints that will make the Bride.
The second 12 are the N.T. saints that will make the Bride.
The number 12 represents the fact these Bride members are the final judges of the earth for 1,000 years before satan is loosed for a little season and sin and death are destroyed.
The number 1,000 represents the fact they will rule and reign 1,000 years.

ewq1938
Oct 28th 2011, 09:37 AM
144,000 is extremely literal. Anytime people start with this crazy numerology they usually go very far left and away from what is true. A lot of this is simply nonsense.





There are two groups being spoken of in Revelation regarding the 144,000, but there are not two groups of 144,000. This is one group, and it is the Bride.

The two mistakes being made here is in the interpretation of those that were numbered, and those that no one could number, and what the number 144,000 represents.

First, the ones that were numbered in Revelation 7:4 were the Israelites in the Old Testament up until the time Jesus brought us salvation by grace. These were the ones that were resurrected on the day of Pentecost to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That number of people will not increase. Those that would resurrect from the Old Testament did resurrect. No one else from the Old Testament is going to resurrect to receive the Holy Ghost. Thus, that number is known, or it is a completed number.

Those that no one could number in Revelation 7:9 are the Gentiles saved by grace. This number is not known because there are still people being saved today, and people that will be saved in the future. This is why no one can number them.

The number 144,000 not a literal number, but a symbolic number. The number 12 is always a number of judgement in the Bible. That is why there were 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles, etc.

There are two groups of people that will be taken to be in the Bride. One group from the O.T., one group from the N.T. Each group will be part of the Bride that judges the earth with Christ for 1,000 years.

12 X 12 X 1,000 = 144,000.
The first 12 are the O.T. saints that will make the Bride.
The second 12 are the N.T. saints that will make the Bride.
The number 12 represents the fact these Bride members are the final judges of the earth for 1,000 years before satan is loosed for a little season and sin and death are destroyed.
The number 1,000 represents the fact they will rule and reign 1,000 years.

David 001
Oct 28th 2011, 10:09 AM
If the number 144,000 is literal, then the Bride is already complete, for there are 144,000 listed from the tribes of Israel. If that's the case, then what are we striving for?

Realizing that numbers have a significant meaning in the Bible is not numerology. If this was the case, then why does 7 represent something that is complete? Why is the mark of the beast 666? Why are there 2 witnesses?

There are to many times a specific number is used in the Bible to simply ignore them, or claim they are literal numbers without a spiritual interpretation.

Even vague references, such as time, times and a half a time in Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 12:14 refer to the literal number 1,260, but has the spiritual interpretation pointing to the dark ages.

ewq1938
Oct 28th 2011, 10:16 AM
If the number 144,000 is literal, then the Bride is already complete, for there are 144,000 listed from the tribes of Israel. If that's the case, then what are we striving for?

The two things have nothing in common. The 144,000 is a literal number of people and the Bride of Christ grows everyday.




Realizing that numbers have a significant meaning in the Bible is not numerology. If this was the case, then why does 7 represent something that is complete?

It doesn't.


Why is the mark of the beast 666?

The mark of the beast is not 666.



Why are there 2 witnesses?

Because God choose two.




There are to many many times a specific number is used in the Bible to simply ignore them, or claim they are literal numbers without a spiritual interpretation.

It's a mistake and it will lead you badly.

David 001
Oct 28th 2011, 10:28 AM
So you see no spiritual meaning whatsoever to the seven golden candlesticks, seven stars in his right hand, seven churches, seven seals, seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, seven angels, seven thunders, etc?

Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." Is not six hundred threescore and six equal to 666?

If 144,000 are the literal number of people that will make the Bride, then what happens if there are 144,001 people that have overcome sin and are worthy to make the Bride when Christ returns?

ewq1938
Oct 28th 2011, 10:33 AM
So you see no spiritual meaning whatsoever to the seven golden candlesticks, seven stars in his right hand, seven churches, seven seals, seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, seven angels, seven thunders, etc?


Not with the number 7.



Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." Is not six hundred threescore and six equal to 666?

You errantly said the mark of the beast was 666 but the verse says 666 is the number of the name of the beast, not related to the mark of the beast given to the deceived.




If 144,000 are the literal number of people that will make the Bride, then what happens if there are 144,001 people that have overcome sin and are worthy to make the Bride when Christ returns?

The bible doesn't state the 144,000 are "the bride". The Bride is all who are Christians, believers, those who are saved.

David 001
Oct 28th 2011, 10:46 AM
Interesting. All I can say is we definitely have a different understanding of the scriptures.

ewq1938
Oct 28th 2011, 10:50 AM
Interesting. All I can say is we definitely have a different understanding of the scriptures.

Does that mean you still think the mark of the beast is 666?

Are these things you taught yourself or do you have a mentor or teacher?

David 001
Oct 28th 2011, 11:03 AM
The mark of the beast is the same as man's number. It is a mark taken in the head and hand, not on it. It is man accepting a false doctrine contrary to the word of God in your mind, and accepting a false doctrine through through fellowship in an organized religious system.

I have had many teachers in the past 48 years, both the pastors and other ministers of the churches I attended, and the various ministers at the camp meetings I have attended.

John 8:32
Oct 28th 2011, 11:09 AM
Then you worded it badly since you said:

"Speaking of error" and then went on about how Dan is missing from Revelation. There is no error. Dan was removed from the Tribes of Israel. Reminds me how Judas was replaced.

I guess the ones of Dan wouldn't be Jewish anymore based on that.

Does anyone know why Dan was removed?

They would not be Jewish anymore since they never were Jewish. There were 12 tribes in Israel (actually 11 and 2 brothers - Ephraim and Manasseh making 13 tribes when they inherited the land) and only one of them was Judah, the father of the Jews. When Jereboam led the 10 tribes of the North to separate from Judah, Benjamin and Levi in the South, they were two distinct nations. Israel in the North with a capital at Samaria and Judah in the South with a capital at Jerusalem. Look at 2 Kings 16, the story line here is Israel is at war with the Jews.

ewq1938
Oct 28th 2011, 11:12 AM
The mark of the beast is the same as man's number.


You didn't answer my question.

Man's number? Where did you come up with that? Can you please show us such scripture?

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

There are three things here:

1. the mark of the beast
2. the name of the beast
3. the number iof the beast's name (which happens to be 666)

The mark is not the name of the beast, and the mark is not the number of that name. It is a separate thing than 666.

Do you understand?




I have had many teachers in the past 48 years, both the pastors and other ministers of the churches I attended, and the various ministers at the camp meetings I have attended.

I meant specifically how you came to believe in things like the numbers meaning this or that and things like this:


12 X 12 X 1,000 = 144,000.
The first 12 are the O.T. saints that will make the Bride.
The second 12 are the N.T. saints that will make the Bride.
The number 12 represents the fact these Bride members are the final judges of the earth for 1,000 years before satan is loosed for a little season and sin and death are destroyed.
The number 1,000 represents the fact they will rule and reign 1,000 years.

ewq1938
Oct 28th 2011, 11:16 AM
They would not be Jewish anymore since they never were Jewish. There were 12 tribes in Israel (actually 11 and 2 brothers - Ephraim and Manasseh making 13 tribes when they inherited the land) and only one of them was Judah, the father of the Jews. When Jereboam led the 10 tribes of the North to separate from Judah, Benjamin and Levi in the South, they were two distinct nations. Israel in the North with a capital at Samaria and Judah in the South with a capital at Jerusalem. Look at 2 Kings 16, the story line here is Israel is at war with the Jews.

Ok, I'll re-word it to be more specific:

Then you worded it badly since you said:

"Speaking of error" and then went on about how Dan is missing from Revelation. There is no error. Dan was removed from the Tribes of Israel. Reminds me how Judas was replaced.

I guess the ones of Dan wouldn't be ISRAELITES anymore based on that.

Does anyone know why Dan was removed?

John 8:32
Oct 28th 2011, 11:39 AM
Ok, I'll re-word it to be more specific:

Then you worded it badly since you said:

"Speaking of error" and then went on about how Dan is missing from Revelation. There is no error. Dan was removed from the Tribes of Israel. Reminds me how Judas was replaced.

I guess the ones of Dan wouldn't be ISRAELITES anymore based on that.

Does anyone know why Dan was removed?

Reason I point this out is that history and prophecy cannot be accurately understood without knowing this.

ewq1938
Oct 28th 2011, 11:47 AM
Reason I point this out is that history and prophecy cannot be accurately understood without knowing this.

Sure. I'm just used to using the term Jewish depending on who I am talking to. I can't recall if you stated, but any ideas on why Dan isn't included in the tribes of Israel in Rev?

John 8:32
Oct 28th 2011, 11:53 AM
Sure. I'm just used to using the term Jewish depending on who I am talking to. I can't recall if you stated, but any ideas on why Dan isn't included in the tribes of Israel in Rev?

Actually, no. This is a question I have wondered about in the past and have found no good explanation for.

David 001
Oct 28th 2011, 12:01 PM
I don't know how to do the multiple quotes, so I will copy and paste your questions instead:

"You didn't answer my question." Yes, I believe 666 is the mark of the beast.

"Man's number? Where did you come up with that? Can you please show us such scripture?" Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

"Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. There are three things here:" There are three things listed, but they all refer to the same thing, and that is taking the mark of the beast in the right hand, or in their foreheads: (Revelation 13:16). As I explained earlier, the mark is not a literal mark. It is in, not on, the right hand or forehead. It is accepting false doctrine that is contrary to the word of God. The mark is 666, the number of a man, or man's number. Since you do not believe the number 7 represents something that is complete, you would not understand that 6 would represent man, since in sin we are incomplete and fall short of the glory of God. 666 simply means the three greatest temptations that cause man to fail. These three things are demonstrated with Solomon in 1 Kings, where Solomon's three weaknesses were power, wealth, and lust.

There are already many churches in the land that preach a false doctrine claiming all three of these vices are acceptable. Their 'soft doctrine' makes people happy, so rather than preach the word of God, they corrupt it and tell their congregations that no man can overcome sin, so it's OK to sin a little... and a little more... and a little more. In fact, about the only thing these type of churches teach is wrong is not paying your monthly dues. This is all part of ecumenism, the initiatives aimed at greater Christian unity or cooperation started by the Catholic church after World War I. Everybody wants to simply accept each other in one big, happy world church, regardless of whether or not they believe the same thing or not. This world church is part of the beast system coming into power again as it did during the inquisition when the Catholic church not only wielded civil power over the Kings of the European world, but it was the only church people were allowed to attend... unless they wanted to be branded as heretics.

"Do you understand?" Yes my friend, I do understand. I understand it very clearly.

"I meant specifically how you came to believe in things like the numbers meaning this or that and things like this:" I came to believe in these things by listening to the ministry teach these things over the years, and by studying the Bible myself to make sure everything I had heard was the truth.

Raybob
Oct 28th 2011, 01:20 PM
Not with the number 7. ...So "7" is the ONLY number that can be symbolic in a book full of symbolism (Revelation of Jesus Christ)??? I'll bet you were taught that by some man, surely NOT the Holy Spirit.

ewq1938
Oct 28th 2011, 08:09 PM
I don't know how to do the multiple quotes, so I will copy and paste your questions instead:

"You didn't answer my question." Yes, I believe 666 is the mark of the beast.

But scripture says it is not the mark but is the number of the name of the beast.




"Man's number? Where did you come up with that? Can you please show us such scripture?" Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

You said "man" but the scripture says "a man" which is the specific man who is this second beast, the one who's name has the number 666.




"Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. There are three things here:" There are three things listed, but they all refer to the same thing, and that is taking the mark of the beast in the right hand, or in their foreheads: (Revelation 13:16). As I explained earlier, the mark is not a literal mark. It is in, not on, the right hand or forehead. It is accepting false doctrine that is contrary to the word of God. The mark is 666, the number of a man, or man's number. Since you do not believe the number 7 represents something that is complete, you would not understand that 6 would represent man, since in sin we are incomplete and fall short of the glory of God. 666 simply means the three greatest temptations that cause man to fail. These three things are demonstrated with Solomon in 1 Kings, where Solomon's three weaknesses were power, wealth, and lust.

666 is not three number 6's. Its 600, 60 and 6. You are using it incorrectly, you have turned 666 into the mark of the beast when scripture doesnt say it and you say 666 is "man's number" rather than "a specific man's number". All these errors add up quickly...

ewq1938
Oct 28th 2011, 08:11 PM
. .

David 001
Oct 28th 2011, 10:17 PM
ewq1938, in middle English verbiage, six hundred threescore and six means six hundred and sixty six. It's the same as the Gettysburg address: Four score and seven years means 87 years.

But... since I have given you my views on what the number 666 means, I would like to hear your viewpoint on what 600, 60, and 6 means.

I see the 'number of a man' to mean any man, but it seems you view it as a particular man. Would you please identify this individual?

I see the number, mark, and the name to represent the same things. Would you explain your ideas on how these three things differ please?

Thank you.

ewq1938
Oct 29th 2011, 01:59 AM
ewq1938, in middle English verbiage, six hundred threescore and six means six hundred and sixty six. It's the same as the Gettysburg address: Four score and seven years means 87 years.

You are absolutely correct although such a thing was never in contention here.




But... since I have given you my views on what the number 666 means, I would like to hear your viewpoint on what 600, 60, and 6 means.

All I know is that it is the number of the name of that second beast, who is called "a man". I have read a great deal on what others believe it to mean but I am personally not ready to take a strong stance.



I see the 'number of a man' to mean any man, but it seems you view it as a particular man. Would you please identify this individual?

Sure he is here:

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed

He "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast" and elsewhere in Rev. he is referred by another name/title. I will post that scripture too if you are unaware of it.




I see the number, mark, and the name to represent the same things. Would you explain your ideas on how these three things differ please?

They are simply different things. The number of the name are related. The number is likely a clue to the identity of his name. Some say "Nero Caesar" but I think he was only a forerunner and the endtimes name will be the name of someone else but I haven't devoted time to this subject.

The mark isn't described much. It is related to his name but I don't believe the 666 is the mark as in everyone having 666 on them. I believe the 666 is a clue not a mark itself. Even you believe the mark is not literal.

Diggindeeper
Oct 29th 2011, 04:33 AM
How can you read that and get the opposite? I denied 7 meant anything figurative which is nothing close to what you are saying. Is english a second language for you?

You know, just a reminder...
I think everyone needs to know that entire forums have been shut down before on here as some people got snottier and snottier....

Like I said...just a reminder. And a warning. We are not little kids on here. We're supposed to be adults. Lets act like it and stop these snide comments.............

ewq1938
Oct 29th 2011, 04:36 AM
You know, just a reminder...
I think everyone needs to know that entire forums have been shut down before on here as some people got snottier and snottier....

Like I said...just a reminder. And a warning. We are not little kids on here. We're supposed to be adults. Lets act like it and stop these snide comments.............


EDIT: In hindsight the wording is crude and I apologize to all and Raybob for any offense. I'll remove the post so as to not derail the topics being discussed. Thank you.

ewq1938
Oct 29th 2011, 05:23 AM
So "7" is the ONLY number that can be symbolic in a book full of symbolism (Revelation of Jesus Christ)???

I can't think of any numbers that would be symbolic, even in the book of Revelation.

ewq1938
Oct 29th 2011, 05:57 AM
Since you do not believe the number 7 represents something that is complete, you would not understand that 6 would represent man, since in sin we are incomplete and fall short of the glory of God.

Hi David,

I'll attempt to briefly show why I think it's unreliable to assign meanings to numbers:

The number 6 is often related to evil, or satan, or to "man"...


Rev 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Yet here we have beasts which has 6 wings. I can't see how the typical meanings for the number 6 could be applied here. They are not men, they are not evil, they serve the Lord God Almighty not satan...God made them with 6 wings but I see nothing symbolic about them having 6 wings.

Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Here I believe we see the same beasts which are known as Seraphs.

David 001
Oct 30th 2011, 10:02 AM
Hello again ewq1938,

Sorry I wasn't able to be on yesterday. Sadly, this mortal world requires our time once in a while.

First, regarding the fact you removed a comment that may have seemed offensive, I have not felt anything you said was offensive in any way. The written word can be tricky to read since we can't hear the tone of someone's voice, and if we read it with a defensive nature, we sometimes take the words as offensive. If anything I have written sounds that way, please forgive me, as that is not my nature. I simply try to get my point across with some brevity rather than extensive dialog, as I'm sure we all do on discussion forums.

Regarding your comment "He "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast" and elsewhere in Rev. he is referred by another name/title. I will post that scripture too if you are unaware of it." If you wouldn't mind, I would like to know which scriptures you are referring to.

As far as the beast in Revelation 4:7, I think we can agree it's obviously not the same beast described in Revelation 12, 13 and 17. The beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is obviously anti-christ, or against Christ, while the beast in Revelation 4:7 represents Christ. I will elaborate in case someone sees that differently:

The four beasts represent Christ in four dispensations of time.

1. As a lion, Jesus was the lion of the tribe of Judah (Old Testament).
2. As a calf, He was our sacrifice (This is Christ's birth. He was pre-destined to be our physical sacrifice from the moment he was born)
3. As a man, He came to earth as a physical man (This is the 33 years he lived on earth as a man)
4. As an eagle, He ascended back to heaven (This is from the time He was crucified until the end of the 1,000 year reign)

The six wings represent the 6,000 years of man in a sinful condition here on earth, from Adam's sin until the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ and the Bride when sin and death are destroyed. Why they are about these four beasts shows us Christ being in control even during this time of man in a sinful condition. It's kind of a duality in meaning, because not only is it a time period of 6,000 years, it's the time for man to live in a sinful condition, so it does relate to man in that sense. As far as the eyes, that shows us Christ is all seeing. There is nothing He didn't see or know from the beginning of time. Lord God Almighty is obviously GOD the Father. Who else would Jesus be saying Holy, holy, holy to? The reason it says holy three times is because of what it says immediately after that; GOD was, is, and is to come.

Many people interpret 'is to come' as Jesus coming back to earth. That's not what it means. When taken in the proper context with "which was, and is", the words "is to come" simply means GOD the Father always has existed, and always has been GOD. GOD the Father does exist, and is GOD. And GOD the Father always will exist, and always will be GOD.

Isaiah 6:2-3 is the same beast. It's a prophecy of Christ. In Isaiah, the word "twain" means "two" just as it does today, representing the Old and New Testament. Jesus' face was covered in the O.T. and the N.T. in the fact that the Jews never recognized Jesus as the messiah. This is still true today for many of the Jewish people. His feet represents understanding, so his feet being covered means that the Jews did not understand the true idea behind the Mosaic and Levitical law. They knew the law, but they eventually corrupted it, and they didn't understand what it would come to represent. Since it was twain, it also means the Jews would not understand the message Jesus would bring to this earth in the form of a man. With twain he did fly again shows Jesus in charge in both the time of the Old and New Testament.

This is not numerology, it's simply understanding that there are reasons God had the authors of the Bible use specific numbers to represent things. It's because the different numbers mean something that enables us to interpret and understand what all the prophetic and illustrative language means in the Bible. It's not just numbers, but words as well. There are many things in the Bible we can't take literally. If we did, none of it would make any sense. Even Jesus made it clear He spoke in parables to the Sadducees and the Pharisees.

As I said, I'm sure others may see these passages of scripture differently, but to me they are a clear picture of Christ.

As far as the number of the beast being 666, I stated in another comment that this represents the three most powerful temptations to man. Again, it's illustrative, or figurative language. It's harmonized in the O.T. with the three things that were Solomon's worst weaknesses. Deuteronomy 17:14-20 shows us what a king of Israel was not to do. 1 Kings 10:13-20 shows us that Solomon did the very things Deuteronomy 17:14-20 said not to do. To put it in a nutshell, these three things were wealth, power, and lust. Even the the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six (666) talents of gold (1 Kings 10:14, 2 Chronicles 9:13). Is this a coincidence? I don't think so. When you think about it, anything we covet is in one form or anther either wealth, power or lust.

The beast, the mark, the name all identify who and what the beast is. It's an antichrist system of religious, civil and political power.

While many people today have a different view of what the beast is, from the 1400s to the early 1900s, every Protestant identified the Roman Catholic church as the first beast. It was a system of religious, political and civil power under the control of one man, the pope. The pope had the highest religious and political authority in the known world. No European king would cross him for fear of being excommunicated. Not only did this carry spiritual ramifications in the mind of Catholics, but it allowed other kings to wage war on the now 'heretical' king. The pope also had unlimited civil authority, and when the pope said jump, the kings asked how high? The Roman Catholic church ordered the inquisitions, and used the civil powers to persecute any and all non-Catholics in the middle ages, including Jews and Christians. When Martin Luther's theology challenged the authority of the pope of the Roman Catholic church by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge, the Catholic church was wounded almost unto death.

So, to the Protestants, the name of the beast was the Catholic church. The mark of the beast was denying any other faith and converting to Catholicism. The number of the beast was the Catholic churches power, wealth, and lust. Many people point out the Roman numerals in the title Vicarius Filli Dei (Latin for 'VICAR OF THE SON OF GOD.'), which is inscribed on the pope's mitre, add up to 666. This is true, but 666 represents much more than that. There were many popes during the middle ages, and just because one died it didn't mean the whole system died.

This is not Catholic bashing... this is simply historical fact.

I will not put the operators of this public forum, nor myself, at legal risk by saying the second beast, whose deadly wound was healed, will also be the Catholic church. I'll leave that up to each individual to decide for themselves.

mara
Oct 30th 2011, 11:45 AM
Just throwing this out there. "a man" sounds sort of like Imam. Since Jesus Christ taught us to follow God's commandments found in Exodus 20 including "Thou shall not murder" that anything contrary to Jesus' teachings is "anti Christ"? Such as idol worship and love of money and treating money as a god?

David 001
Oct 30th 2011, 11:52 AM
Hello mara.

If you're asking does antichrist mean anything against Christ, the answer is yes. Anti means against or opposed to.

Many people use the term 'the antichrist', but the Bible doesn't. The word antichrist is only used in 4 scriptures (1 John 2:18, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7) and it never says "the antichrist".

The word antichrist is never referring to an individual person. In fact, 1 John 2:18 makes it clear there are many that are many antichrists:

1 John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

ewq1938
Oct 31st 2011, 02:24 AM
First, regarding the fact you removed a comment that may have seemed offensive, I have not felt anything you said was offensive in any way. The written word can be tricky to read since we can't hear the tone of someone's voice, and if we read it with a defensive nature, we sometimes take the words as offensive. If anything I have written sounds that way, please forgive me, as that is not my nature. I simply try to get my point across with some brevity rather than extensive dialog, as I'm sure we all do on discussion forums.

Yes, text can be that way. Sometimes I do wish this was all verbal communication.


Regarding your comment "He "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast" and elsewhere in Rev. he is referred by another name/title. I will post that scripture too if you are unaware of it." If you wouldn't mind, I would like to know which scriptures you are referring to.


Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of
those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to
them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.



Here we read of the second beast, who performs miracles in the sight of the first beast and performing those miracles in order to deceive the people!


1: Second beast performs miracles before the first beast
2: performs these miracles to deceive the people.



Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that
wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were
cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.



Here we see that the false prophet performed miracles before the beast in order to deceive people and cause them to worship that same beast.



1: False prophet performs miracles before the beast
2: performs these to deceive people.



And so who was it then that performed miracles before the beast and before the people to deceive them?






So to sum up what we have found:



1: Second beast, also called the false prophet, performs miracles before the first beast.


2: performs these miracles to deceive the people.


Therefore, the second beast is a person who is called the false prophet, the one responsible for performing miracles designed to deceive people and cause them to worship the first beast.





As far as the beast in Revelation 4:7, I think we can agree it's obviously not the same beast described in Revelation 12, 13 and 17.

yes. Take note Rev 13 describes two different "beasts" and only one is the antichrist.



The beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is obviously anti-christ, or against Christ, while the beast in Revelation 4:7 represents Christ.

THe 7 headed beast isn't the antichrist, its a global "system". It's the second beast of 13 which is the antichrist, a lone individual.



I will elaborate in case someone sees that differently:




Who else would Jesus be saying Holy, holy, holy to? The reason it says holy three times is because of what it says immediately after that; GOD was, is, and is to come.

The 4 beasts aren't Jesus...they are 4 beasts, not one person. They are Seraphs.

Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.


Rev 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

ewq1938
Oct 31st 2011, 02:27 AM
Many people use the term 'the antichrist', but the Bible doesn't. The word antichrist is only used in 4 scriptures (1 John 2:18, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7) and it never says "the antichrist".

1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

We say "the antichrist" to speak of a certain, specific antichrist since there are so many. When we need to speak of a special one of them, we say "the" to denote that. There are many "Adam's" but when we want to pick out a certain one we would say "the Adam".

mikebr
Oct 31st 2011, 02:29 AM
Revelation 7: 2-4 links with revelation 14: 1-4 'a hundred and forty four thousand' and rev 7: 4-9 states that these hundred and forty four thousand will come from all the nations and tribes, peoples and tounges standing before the throne and before the lamb (Jesus Christ)these hundred and forty four thousand going to rule in heaven with Jesus??
:hmm:

Who exactly are they going to rule? Each other? Wow 144,001 kings?

David 001
Oct 31st 2011, 01:31 PM
We say "the antichrist" to speak of a certain, specific antichrist since there are so many. When we need to speak of a special one of them, we say "the" to denote that. There are many "Adam's" but when we want to pick out a certain one we would say "the Adam".

You are correct, but the Bible never uses the word 'the' in conjunction with the word antichrist. For people to be on the lookout for one man and call him the antichrist is dangerous, because while they are looking for an individual, or even a single group of people such as the Muslims, those that truly are antichrist will be forming the beast system right under their noses, and they won't even know it. In fact, they will be joining in the very system they are watching out for because they will be deceived by the false prophet.

The entire beast system is antichrist. In fact, anything that is antichrist is against Christ.

You said the beast and the false prophet are the same person. I have no doubt the false prophet is part of the best system, but the Bible uses the term the beast and the false prophet in Revelation 20:10, indicating that they are separate from one another.

David 001
Oct 31st 2011, 01:48 PM
Who exactly are they going to rule? Each other? Wow 144,001 kings?

Sin and death are not destroyed until the 1,000 years are finished, so the Bride will be ruling over this world during the 1,000 years. I won't quote the whole chapter, but Revelation 20 makes this clear.

mikebr
Oct 31st 2011, 02:03 PM
Sin and death are not destroyed until the 1,000 years are finished, so the Bride will be ruling over this world during the 1,000 years. I won't quote the whole chapter, but Revelation 20 makes this clear.

Why if all those people are going to hell anyway.

John 8:32
Oct 31st 2011, 02:30 PM
You are correct, but the Bible never uses the word 'the' in conjunction with the word antichrist. For people to be on the lookout for one man and call him the antichrist is dangerous, because while they are looking for an individual, or even a single group of people such as the Muslims, those that truly are antichrist will be forming the beast system right under their noses, and they won't even know it. In fact, they will be joining in the very system they are watching out for because they will be deceived by the false prophet.

The entire beast system is antichrist. In fact, anything that is antichrist is against Christ.

You said the beast and the false prophet are the same person. I have no doubt the false prophet is part of the best system, but the Bible uses the term the beast and the false prophet in Revelation 20:10, indicating that they are separate from one another.

While technically correct, antichrist is a term that is applied to anything contrary to Christ, modern usage has placed it on the 'man of sin', the 'son of perdition', the 'false prophet', etc. Anyhoo, when one speaks of THE antichrist, he is speaking of the end time religous deceiver or the end time political/military leader referred to as the False Prophet and the Beast, respectively.

ewq1938
Oct 31st 2011, 11:29 PM
You are correct, but the Bible never uses the word 'the' in conjunction with the word antichrist.

And there is no reason why it would. The first time the word is ever used, it's in the singular, then after that the plural is used. Has the plural been used first then specifying a certain singular antichrist out of that mass would call for the use of a particle such as "the".

We use "The" Antichrist to denote a certain particular antichrist, the one mentioned in this verse:

1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.



For people to be on the lookout for one man and call him the antichrist is dangerous, because while they are looking for an individual, or even a single group of people such as the Muslims, those that truly are antichrist will be forming the beast system right under their noses, and they won't even know it.


It's not dangerous, it's simply a fact. A certain individual called Antichrist is coming, and we see that person in Rev 13:11. The term "antichrist" simply isn't used but other names are. Same person John warned would come.





The entire beast system is antichrist. In fact, anything that is antichrist is against Christ.

Yes everything is against-Christ but there is a specific individual who will be the most anti-Christ of all.




You said the beast and the false prophet are the same person.

No, I said the SECOND BEAST is the false prophet.



I have no doubt the false prophet is part of the best system, but the Bible uses the term the beast and the false prophet in Revelation 20:10, indicating that they are separate from one another.

There are two beasts described in Rev 13. The first is a system, the second is a person.

Desperaux
Nov 2nd 2011, 03:55 AM
Revelation 7: 2-4 links with revelation 14: 1-4 'a hundred and forty four thousand' and rev 7: 4-9 states that these hundred and forty four thousand will come from all the nations and tribes, peoples and tounges standing before the throne and before the lamb (Jesus Christ)these hundred and forty four thousand going to rule in heaven with Jesus??
:hmm:

The word doesn't say that this number comes from all nations and tribes:

4 And I heard how many were marked with the seal of God—144,000 were sealed from all the tribes of Israel:

5 from Judah — 12,000
from Reuben — 12,000
from Gad — 12,000
6 from Asher — 12,000
from Naphtali — 12,000
from Manasseh — 12,000
7 from Simeon — 12,000
from Levi — 12,000
from Issachar — 12,000
8 from Zebulun — 12,000
from Joseph — 12,000
from Benjamin — 12,000

Desperaux
Nov 2nd 2011, 04:00 AM
Hello mara.

If you're asking does antichrist mean anything against Christ, the answer is yes. Anti means against or opposed to.

Many people use the term 'the antichrist', but the Bible doesn't. The word antichrist is only used in 4 scriptures (1 John 2:18, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7) and it never says "the antichrist".

The word antichrist is never referring to an individual person. In fact, 1 John 2:18 makes it clear there are many that are many antichrists:

1 John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

There is a difference between the general spirit of antichrist we see everywhere, and the Antichrist who is to come, in whom the spirit is embodied.

1 John 2:18
[ Warning about Antichrists ] Dear children, the last hour is here. You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and already many such antichrists have appeared. From this we know that the last hour has come.

1 John 4:3
But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here.