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View Full Version : Discussion How does a Jewish person obtain atonement for their sin?



Noonzie
Nov 7th 2011, 03:46 PM
I am asking out of ignorance because I am interested. The question is really sparked from my reading Leviticus and the detailed instructions God gave to Moses to be performed by the peopl and priests. There are many levels of sacrifice for the individual. Why did that change and did God offer a new way?

Thanks

episkopos
Nov 7th 2011, 04:47 PM
I believe that modern Judaism relies on the giving of money...tsedaka...(meaning righteousness) to "atone" for sins. Judaism has had to adjust somewhat since the destruction of the temple.

But...

"And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Heb. 9:22

Diggindeeper
Nov 7th 2011, 04:51 PM
It was prophesied in the Old Testament that God would do this:
Ezekial 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Have you noticed since Christ Jesus died on the cross, the veil of the temple was rent (torn) into. This was not some 'veil' like a cloth, net or mesh one like we tend to think, but very thick concrete. Then in AD66-70, Jerusalem AND THE TEMPLE were destroyed, just as Jesus said would happen! He said not one stone would be left on top of another of that beautiful temple where people were required to go and BRING all those sacrifices and go through all those temple rituals for their transgressions.

You see, Christ Jesus was THE ultimate sacrifice. No other sacrifice would ever again be acceptable unto God! EVER! But had that temple stood, the Jewish people would still be under the requirement to offer ALL those sacrifices.... like rams, goats, lambs, heifers, doves, etc.

No longer are all those sacrifices required. You would think they would really be glad, but...they still refuse to accept that Jesus IS truly the Messiah, the son of God, their sacrifice just as he sacrificed all for us.

I hope this helps.........

rejoice44
Nov 7th 2011, 05:44 PM
I am asking out of ignorance because I am interested. The question is really sparked from my reading Leviticus and the detailed instructions God gave to Moses to be performed by the peopl and priests. There are many levels of sacrifice for the individual. Why did that change and did God offer a new way?

Thanks

They receive atonement by the blood of the Messiah. Jesus Christ is their temple. Jesus said destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Jesus was speaking of himself as the temple. The Jews have no temple today because they have rejected the only temple that is acceptable to God. The Jews cannot keep their law because the temple was a necessity for the fulfillment of that law. Their law can only be fulfilled in and through Christ.

RockSolid
Nov 7th 2011, 06:09 PM
I am asking out of ignorance because I am interested. The question is really sparked from my reading Leviticus and the detailed instructions God gave to Moses to be performed by the peopl and priests. There are many levels of sacrifice for the individual.

A Jewish person may obtain atonement for sin in the same way everyone else does.
1. Believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of God.
2. Believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.
3. Confess that you are a sinner and ask God for forgiveness of sins.
4. Go and sin no more.


Why did that change and did God offer a new way?

The kingdom of God was never meant to be a physical kingdom. Israel was the kingdom of God and was supposed to spread God's goodness to the world, but they did not. They became wicked and blinded people to God's goodness. They decided to put up barriers,they hated strangers. The kingdom of God now became corrupt and abusive. They destroyed what God had made.
They asked for a human king to be like all the other nations. Samuel told them that they did not know what they were asking. By demanding a human king, Israel was rejecting God as their king.

1Sam 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the Lord.
1Sam 8:7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.
1Sam 8:8 According to all the deeds that they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you.

They killed the prophets, allowed corruption, allowed wickedness to rule, and they hid the kingdom from others. Jerusalem had degraded.
Rev 18:2 And he called out with a mighty voice, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
Rev 18:24 ​​​​​​​​And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”

So Jesus came to fix all these problems. Jesus came to remove wickedness from the kingdom of God and restore the kingdom to righteousness. He came to tear down the walls, He came to split the veil in two. He created a division between the Jews, between the true followers of God in the kingdom and the wicked, corrupt of the kingdom.
Matt 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the land. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matt 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Matt 10:36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
Matt 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Then they killed Christ but that still did not satisfy them. They began killing the Christians.
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the land?”
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Christ had to destroy this old kingdom and all who refused to accept Him. But He waited so as to save all that would come to Him, He gave them a transition period. The wheat and the weeds grew together. He told them in the Olivet Discourse that the temple was to be destroyed, that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and would be destroyed. The true followers of God, the wheat, were told to leave Jerusalem. The ones left behind were the ones who rejected Christ, the weeds. Then in 70AD the weeds were gathered and burned while the wheat were gathered in the barn. The sheep and the goats were separated. The city was destroyed, the temple was destroyed, the old physical kingdom was destroyed, the ones who rejected and killed Christ were destroyed, the old covenant was destroyed. The souls that were "slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne" were avenged.
All wickedness was purged from the kingdom of God, it became the spirtual kingdom of righteousness that God intended. Now neither evil nor corruption can enter God's kingdom. It is no longer hidden.
Matt 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

Old physical Jerusalem in the kingdom was replaced by New Jerusalem, a city not made by hands. Only the righteous can enter it. Evil is not present there. Wickedness cannot infiltrate it. The wicked are left outside.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

We no longer need a physical temple or an earthly ruler in the kingdom. We have accepted Christ as our king.
The old covenant was replaced by the new covenant that was prophesied by Jeremiah.
Jer 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Walls
Nov 8th 2011, 11:58 AM
I am asking out of ignorance because I am interested. The question is really sparked from my reading Leviticus and the detailed instructions God gave to Moses to be performed by the peopl and priests. There are many levels of sacrifice for the individual. Why did that change and did God offer a new way?

Thanks

As you have read in Leviticus, the Jew atoned for his sin and sins by the offerings. There are 5 main offerings and three additional offerings. The main offerings were;

The Burnt offering
The Meal offering
The Peace offering
The Sin offering
The Trespass offering
The additional ones were;

The Drink offering
The Wave offering
The Heave offering
According to the Book of Hebrews, especially Chapters 9 to 11 the atoning sacrifices were;

A shadow of things to come
Unable to put the sins away
Unable to clear the conscience
Since our Lord Jesus came, the offerings for atonement have passed. Our Lord Jesus is the fulfillment of all the above offerings. He calls all men, both Jew and heathen, to believe on His atoning work. The Jew today is in a very difficult position. To keep the Law of Sinai, he needs three things;
To be able to visit Jerusalem 3 times a year
To have a Temple
The Levitical priesthood
Since these are impossible to a nation in dispersion, and whose country is trod upon by Gentiles, the modern day Jew cannot atone for his sins.

If Israel had embraced their Messiah, they would have

Been born again
Had eternal life
Been the leading nation
Been the kingdom of God on earth
Since they refused their Messiah, God, in His quest to keep His promise to Abraham, has ratified a New Covenant by Christ's blood, which will be made with Israel at a future date (Jeremiah Chapter 31, Hebrews Chapter 8). This Covenant will be a covenant of Law again, but the offerings that are under this covenant and predicted by Ezekiel, are not for atonement. They are for the cleansing of the flesh of those who are not resurrected (Heb.9:13), and who must seek audience with Jesus Christ in Jerusalem during the Millennial reign of Christ (Zech.14:16).

Until our Lord Jesus returns and restores Israel there is no atonement possible for one who rejects Jesus. According to Hebrews 9:10 the sacrifices were only valid "until the time of reformation."

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 12:43 PM
From the Jewish perspective, atonement may be achieved in many ways.

Prayer:

Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. [2] Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us] graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

and


Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] His delight.
Obedience:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.

Feeling regret:

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of G-d [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, thou wilt not despise.

Praising God:


Psalms 69:30 I will praise the name of G-d with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. [31] [This] also shall please the LORD better than an ox [or] bullock that hath horns and hoofs.

Mercy and truth:


Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged:

Righteousness/mercy:


Daniel 4:27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor


etc etc

The whole idea that blood is required for atonement is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one.

David Taylor
Nov 8th 2011, 01:37 PM
How does a Jewish person obtain atonement for their sin? I am asking out of ignorance because I am interested.
A Jewish person obtains atonement for their sins the same way a Canadian person, or a Kenyan person, or an Argentinian person obtain atonement for their sin.


John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life"

John 11:25 "Jesus said, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? "

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also"

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

rejoice44
Nov 8th 2011, 01:51 PM
The whole idea that blood is required for atonement is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one.

Abel offered a blood sacrifice and was accepted, Cain did not, and was not.

Can you explain the Jewish thought on these two verses? Exodus 29:20-21 Then shall you kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about. And you shall take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons garments with him.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 02:01 PM
Abel offered a blood sacrifice and was accepted, Cain did not, and was not.Abel brought his best; Cain did not. Right in the bible.


Can you explain the Jewish thought on these two verses? I do not deny that sacrifice can bring atonement, I only say that there are other methods. I even posted some verses on the subject, you might take a look at them...

rejoice44
Nov 8th 2011, 02:23 PM
Abel brought his best; Cain did not. Right in the bible.

In what way was Cain's offering inferior?


I do not deny that sacrifice can bring atonement, I only say that there are other methods. I even posted some verses on the subject, you might take a look at them...

I see what you presented as Christian concepts. None of the verses you presented are from the law.

A Christian does not offer a blood sacrifice because his Saviour is the blood offering and therefore we praise him with thanksgiving and praise. We see God as merciful because he took our place and redeemed us. We have regret that our sin placed our Saviour on the cross. We are obedient because we love him, and because he loved us enough to die for us.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 02:26 PM
In what way was Cain's offering inferior?
The bible says Cain brought of the fruit of the ground but Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.

Aha.



None of the verses you presented are from the law.Are they in the bible or not?

RockSolid
Nov 8th 2011, 02:33 PM
In what way was Cain's offering inferior?

Josephus gives us this interpretation.

Antiquities 1:2:1
Now the two brethren were pleased with different courses of life: for Abel, the younger, was a lover of righteousness; and believing that God was present at all his actions, he excelled in virtue; and his employment was that of a shepherd. But Cain was not only very wicked in other respects, but was wholly intent upon getting; and he first contrived to plough the ground. He slew his brother on the occasion following : - They had resolved to sacrifice to God. Now Cain brought the fruits of the earth, and of his husbandry; but Abel brought milk, and the first-fruits of his flocks: but God was more delighted with the latter oblation, when he was honored with what grew naturally of its own accord, than he was with what was the invention of a covetous man, and gotten by forcing the ground; whence it was that Cain was very angry that Abel was preferred by God before him; and he slew his brother, and hid his dead body, thinking to escape discovery.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 02:38 PM
Josephus gives us this interpretation.
I happen to be personally fond of Josephus, but even I would not quote him as being "authoritative" on this topic.

rejoice44
Nov 8th 2011, 02:43 PM
The bible says Cain brought of the fruit of the ground but Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.

Aha.

Peta would say that God had it reversed.



Are they in the bible or not?

Yes, but haven't you presented the first five books as being superior?

rejoice44
Nov 8th 2011, 02:47 PM
Josephus gives us this interpretation.

Antiquities 1:2:1
Now the two brethren were pleased with different courses of life: for Abel, the younger, was a lover of righteousness; and believing that God was present at all his actions, he excelled in virtue; and his employment was that of a shepherd. But Cain was not only very wicked in other respects, but was wholly intent upon getting; and he first contrived to plough the ground. He slew his brother on the occasion following : - They had resolved to sacrifice to God. Now Cain brought the fruits of the earth, and of his husbandry; but Abel brought milk, and the first-fruits of his flocks: but God was more delighted with the latter oblation, when he was honored with what grew naturally of its own accord, than he was with what was the invention of a covetous man, and gotten by forcing the ground; whence it was that Cain was very angry that Abel was preferred by God before him; and he slew his brother, and hid his dead body, thinking to escape discovery.

I tend not to follow that which has not been canonized, or as God inspired.

I believe the fact that the ground had been cursed, and then Cain offered fruit from that cursed ground was the biggest problem. On one hand you have the curse, and on the other hand you have the redemption from the curse, the shed blood.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 03:06 PM
Peta would say that God had it reversed.Still says otherwise in the bible.





Yes, but haven't you presented the first five books as being superior?So we get to ignore everything else? :lol:

rejoice44
Nov 8th 2011, 04:02 PM
Still says otherwise in the bible.

So who rules, Peta or God?



So we get to ignore everything else? :lol:

The law is the rule book for the life of the Jew, and the first five books contain the law. The atonement for the Jew is in those five books and over and over again it demonstrates that blood is required. From Cain and Abel to Abraham and his son we see that God requires shed blood.

One can understand why God would despise the sacrifice since it was necessitated by sin and caused the sacrifice of God's Son.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 04:17 PM
So who rules, Peta or God? Um, did the bible say that Abel brought his best? Yes.



The law is the rule book for the life of the Jew, and the first five books contain the law. Oh, so now you get to define what Jews believe? Really now.


The atonement for the Jew is in those five books and over and over again it demonstrates that blood is required. From Cain and Abel to Abraham and his son we see that God requires shed blood.Exodus 30:16 talks about "atonement money". Numbers 16:47 talks about "atonement incense". Neither are "blood".

Furthermore, only some specified sins have a sacrifice associated with them- mostly accidental ones. Intentional sin can not be forgiven by sacrifice. Read Numbers 15.

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 04:33 PM
Exodus 30:16 talks about "atonement money". Numbers 16:47 talks about "atonement incense". Neither are "blood".
That is right but it must be understood that those things were not possible except for the "blood" spoken of here:



"And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words" (Ex.24:8).


Without the "blood" of the covenant none of the bloodless atonements under the Moaic Covenant could have even come into existence. So all of the things under the law are completely dependent upon the blood.

episkopos
Nov 8th 2011, 04:34 PM
Did the Jews outgrow temple Judaism, or were they forced to give it up?

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 04:40 PM
So all of the things under the law are completely dependent upon the blood.Not according to Numbers 15.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 04:42 PM
Did the Jews outgrow temple Judaism, or were they forced to give it up?I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Temple Judaism ended in 586 BCE, not 70 CE

keck553
Nov 8th 2011, 04:56 PM
I don't know Fenris....Ezeliel says in 18:3 that..."The soul that sins dies..." Daniel also speaks of and eternal judgement that will be dispensed in the resurrection ..."Those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (12:2). Isaiah teaches us that though people think their prayers are being heard by God, their sins break the prayer connection. "It is not that God us unable to hear or help you, but your sins have mand a separation between God and you, so that He will not hear you." (59:1-2)

Perhaps God's way of forgiving has been misunderstood? I know the rebuilding of the Temple is being discussed, but hasn't almost 2000 years of worship without blood sacrifice led you (corporately) to believe you don't need blood atonement for sins? The Bible teaches otherwise...."The life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul"

Is not Yom Kippur an atonement only if God's way is observed? Can an apology remove a murder charge?

I know David tells us that prayer and supplicatioon is pleasing to God, and it is obviously, but in Psalm 51 didn't David prepare a blood sacrifice after his heart was pure?

I don't read in the Bible how atonement can be made without blood according to God's way.

episkopos
Nov 8th 2011, 04:59 PM
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Temple Judaism ended in 586 BCE, not 70 CE

Yes...Until the messiah Cyrus freed the Jews and authorized the rebuilding of the second temple. Are we presently in a lull between the 2nd and third temples...or has temple worship become obsolete?

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 05:01 PM
Yes...Until the messiah Cyrus freed the Jews and authorized the rebuilding of the second temple. Are we presently in a lull between the 2nd and third temples...or has temple worship become obsolete?As per Ezekiel, a lull between temples 2 and 3.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 05:04 PM
I don't read in the Bible how atonement can be made without blood according to God's way.I have to reiterate, again, that sacrifice is only for accidental sins. It's not a secret, it's right there in the bible

rejoice44
Nov 8th 2011, 05:04 PM
Furthermore, only some specified sins have a sacrifice associated with them- mostly accidental ones. Intentional sin can not be forgiven by sacrifice. Read Numbers 15.

I disagree that intentional sin can not be forgiven by sacrifice.

The ultimate blood sacrifice is one's own person. The payment for sin is death, and since life is in the blood, when one dies the slate is wiped clean. The death of the body, soul, and spirit is considered payment by God.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 05:06 PM
I disagree that intentional sin can not be forgiven by sacrifice.Then you disagree with Numbers 15. And I'm taking God's word over yours, so sorry.


The death of the body, soul, and spirit is considered payment by God.A shame the bible doesn't mention "death of the body, soul, and spirit", hey?

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 05:07 PM
Not according to Numbers 15.
Please quote any verse which supports your idea.

All of the provisions under the law (the Mosaic Covenant) were completely dependent on the blood of the covenant.

I have to reiterate, again, that sacrifice is only for accidental sins. It's not a secret, it's right there in the bible
You need to read Leviticus 6:1-7 because there we see sacrifices for sins which were not accidental.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 05:21 PM
Please quote any verse which supports your idea.Well, lets look at Numbers 15.

First it speaks of the community sinning by accident- and specifies a sacrifice. Then it speaks of an individual sinning by accident- and specifies a sacrifice.

And then we have this: 30. But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that soul shall be cut off from among its people.

No sacrifice for intentional sin. It's all right there.


All of the provisions under the law (the Mosaic Covenant) were completely dependent on the blood of the covenant.According to Christians, perhaps.

keck553
Nov 8th 2011, 05:23 PM
I have to reiterate, again, that sacrifice is only for accidental sins. It's not a secret, it's right there in the bible

I thinik I could make an arguement for atonement covering chatah and avone, but not outright rebellion.

So you no longer commit accidental sins?

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 05:26 PM
I thinik I could make an arguement for atonement covering chatah and avone, but not outright rebellion.Shrug.


So you no longer commit accidental sins?Of course we do. That's why I posted those verses above. You know, the ones that everyone is ignoring. :lol:

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 05:38 PM
Well, lets look at Numbers 15.

First it speaks of the community sinning by accident- and specifies a sacrifice. Then it speaks of an individual sinning by accident- and specifies a sacrifice.

And then we have this: 30. But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that soul shall be cut off from among its people.

No sacrifice for intentional sin. It's all right there.
All of the sacrifices and all of the atonements spoken of in the law are all dependent on the "bood" of the covenant. Nothing you said changes that fact.

According to Christians, perhaps.
No, according to the Bible all of the things which God spoke to the children of Israel were put into effect by the "blood of the covenant":

"And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words" (Ex.24:4-8).


None of the provisions under the law would be in effect were it not for the blood of the covenant. That is why the author of the book of Hebrews speaks of this ceremony and then says that "without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness:

"When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb.9:19-22).

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 05:41 PM
which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings

Doesn't say anyplace that these were sin-sacrifices.

rejoice44
Nov 8th 2011, 05:43 PM
Then you disagree with Numbers 15. And I'm taking God's word over yours, so sorry.

Those sacrifices were only temporary coverings for sin. That they were temporary is shown by the fact that they all eventually died. Their death was the ultimate payment for sin which all experience.




A shame the bible doesn't mention "death of the body, soul, and spirit", hey?

Yes it mentions the death of the soul as well as the body. Job 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers. Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. And Matt. 16:26 and Mark 8:36.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 05:49 PM
Those sacrifices were only temporary coverings for sin.Hmm this is another Christian point.


That they were temporary is shown by the fact that they all eventually died. Their death was the ultimate payment for sin which all experience.
This makes no sense. Christians die, yet if they accept Jesus's sacrifice their sins are all forgiven. Should a true Christian be immortal?

Obviously we die because man is subject to death.





Yes it mentions the death of the soul as well as the body. Job 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers. Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.A "soul" doesn't go into a grave, only a body does. Anyway, where's the "death of the spirit?"

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 05:52 PM
Doesn't say anyplace that these were sin-sacrifices.
Yes, it does. The sacrifice was for a person's sins:



"If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour; Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty...And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein" (Lev.6:2-4,7).

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 06:01 PM
Yes, it does. The sacrifice was for a person's sins:
There are other sacrifices aside from sin. The chapter you cite lists two: burnt offerings, and peace offerings. Nothing about sin offerings. At all.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 06:02 PM
Post 7 apparently doesn't exist.

keck553
Nov 8th 2011, 06:29 PM
Shrug.

Of course we do. That's why I posted those verses above. You know, the ones that everyone is ignoring. :lol:

I was thinking in context of Yom Kipper

JerryShugart
Nov 8th 2011, 06:34 PM
There are other sacrifices aside from sin. The chapter you cite lists two: burnt offerings, and peace offerings. Nothing about sin offerings. At all.
Of course the sacrifices were in regard to making an atonement for sins:



"If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour; Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty...And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein" (Lev.6:2-4,7).



No sacrifice for intentional sin. It's all right there.
All of the sacrifices and all of the atonements spoken of in the law are all dependent on the "bood" of the covenant. Nothing you said changes that fact.

According to Christians, perhaps.
No, according to the Bible all of the things which God spoke to the children of Israel were put into effect by the "blood of the covenant":



"And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words" (Ex.24:4-8).


None of the provisions under the law would be in effect were it not for the blood of the covenant. That is why the author of the book of Hebrews speaks of this ceremony and then says that "without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness:



"When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb.9:19-22).

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 06:41 PM
Of course the sacrifices were in regard to making an atonement for sins:
I'm sorry, Jerry, but you're using flawed logic here. Just because one may bring sacrifices for some sins does not mean that every sacrifice is for a sin. Leviticus 3 speaks of a "peace-offering" that one brings before God, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with sin.



All of the sacrifices and all of the atonements spoken of in the law are all dependent on the "bood" of the covenant. A shame that the chapter you keep quoting isn't talking about sin sacrifice.


without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness (Heb.9:19-22).I am very familiar with this verse. It can only be found in the NT.

Here's something to tickle your noodle-

Leviticus 5:11 But if he cannot afford two turtle doves or two young doves, then he shall bring as his sacrifice for his sin one tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall not put oil over it, nor shall he place frankincense upon it, for it is a sin offering.

Flour. No blood.

rejoice44
Nov 8th 2011, 07:29 PM
[QUOTE=Fenris;2765968]Hmm this is another Christian point.

Isn't it true that the sin offerings were to prevent immediate death and not the eventual death that we all suffer?


This makes no sense. Christians die, yet if they accept Jesus's sacrifice their sins are all forgiven. Should a true Christian be immortal?

The New Testament promises eternal life more than twenty times for those that are in Christ.



A "soul" doesn't go into a grave, only a body does. Anyway, where's the "death of the spirit?"

You suggested earlier that all scripture was of value.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 07:37 PM
Isn't it true that the sin offerings were to prevent immediate death and not the eventual death that we all suffer?Hmm no that isn't in the bible anyplace.




The New Testament promises eternal life more than twenty times for those that are in Christ. But you claim that only sin causes death. Since Christians are forgiven of all their sins, why do they die?





You suggested earlier that all scripture was of value.In other words, you can't find scripture to prove your point, so some verse in Job should be "good enough".

rejoice44
Nov 8th 2011, 07:52 PM
[QUOTE=Fenris;2766054]Hmm no that isn't in the bible anyplace.

Then what was the purpose, or end result, of the sin offerings?


But you claim that only sin causes death. Since Christians are forgiven of all their sins, why do they die?

Their soul doesn't end up in the grave, and they are given a new body.


In other words, you can't find scripture to prove your point, so some verse in Job should be "good enough".

The fact that the book of Job agrees with the New Testament should give you some food for thought.

Fenris you stated; "Are they in the bible or not?", referring to the books outside of the books of Moses, and I would ask you the same of Job.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 07:55 PM
Then what was the purpose, or end result, of the sin offerings?
Atonement.



Their soul doesn't end up in the grave, and they are given a new body.But you were talking about physical death...




The fact that the book of Job agrees with the New Testament should give you some food for thought.What, all of two verses?

I guess post 7 and post 43 don't exist.

rejoice44
Nov 8th 2011, 08:23 PM
Atonement.

What does that mean? Atonement only for that one sin? What does it give you? One more day until you sin again?


But you were talking about physical death...

What did God mean when God said to Adam you shall surely die? Wasn't it both body and soul?


What, all of two verses?

They don't count?


I guess post 7 and post 43 don't exist.

Like I tried to point out before, they are more Christian values than Orthodox Jew. You have said before that you preferred earning your way in deference to God's mercy. The law that is found in the first five books is what you are bound to, is it not?

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 08:28 PM
What does that mean? Atonement only for that one sin? What does it give you? One more day until you sin again?If one of our purposes here is self improvement, then it's only by making mistakes and trying to become better that we actually do become better. If sinning leads one to examine themselves and stop sinning, then even that sin was positive.

.


What did God mean when God said to Adam you shall surely die? Wasn't it both body and soul?Lemme check. Nope, doesn't say anything about that in my bible.




They don't count?
I posted many verses waaay back in post 7. they don't count?



Like I tried to point out before, they are more Christian values. Hmm? They don't mention sacrifice, let alone man/god sacrifice.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2011, 08:29 PM
Anyway, a question was asked by the OP and it was answered. One may accept or reject that answer. But it was given.

keck553
Nov 8th 2011, 10:46 PM
Anyway, a question was asked by the OP and it was answered. One may accept or reject that answer. But it was given.

We Christians need to remember that it is God who saves, not us. If you love Him, He will have his way with you, that I trust.

LookingUp
Nov 9th 2011, 04:52 AM
I am asking out of ignorance because I am interested. The question is really sparked from my reading Leviticus and the detailed instructions God gave to Moses to be performed by the peopl and priests. There are many levels of sacrifice for the individual. Why did that change and did God offer a new way?

ThanksAs you've seen, forgiveness of sin was obtained through the Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system. I can forgive my son for his behavior when he repents (and fellowship is restored), but his poor behavior still has consequences. Who/what will raise this body I've corrupted with sin and transform it into a holy, immortal body prepared for the eternal age? Certainly the Levitical priesthood and its sacrificial system cannot transform this body and make it perfect.

Noonzie
Nov 9th 2011, 02:50 PM
Anyway, a question was asked by the OP and it was answered. One may accept or reject that answer. But it was given.

Thank you. I appreciate that you took to the time to share that.

the rookie
Nov 9th 2011, 09:14 PM
We're going to wipe the slate semi-clean and start fresh. Dishonoring, condescending, belittling posts will be deleted. Consider this fair warning.

mikebr
Nov 9th 2011, 09:22 PM
The bible says Cain brought of the fruit of the ground but Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.

Aha.


Are they in the bible or not?

Wow, seems that Abel's offering was based on grace. He sat under a shade tree and watched the flock eat grass. It also seems to me that Cain's offering was based on works. He tilled, planted, gathered, etc. Maybe that's the difference.

mikebr
Nov 9th 2011, 09:25 PM
Anyway, a question was asked by the OP and it was answered. One may accept or reject that answer. But it was given.

Thanks for the scripture you quoted.

mikebr
Nov 9th 2011, 09:28 PM
As you've seen, forgiveness of sin was obtained through the Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system. I can forgive my son for his behavior when he repents (and fellowship is restored), but his poor behavior still has consequences. Who/what will raise this body I've corrupted with sin and transform it into a holy, immortal body prepared for the eternal age? Certainly the Levitical priesthood and its sacrificial system cannot transform this body and make it perfect.

Nor can most the requirements we put on each other such as, church attendance, tithing, scripture memorization, etc.

salesman
Nov 10th 2011, 12:34 AM
From the Jewish perspective, atonement may be achieved in many ways.

Prayer:

Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. [2] Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us] graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

and


Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] His delight.
Obedience:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.

Feeling regret:

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of G-d [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, thou wilt not despise.

Praising God:


Psalms 69:30 I will praise the name of G-d with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. [31] [This] also shall please the LORD better than an ox [or] bullock that hath horns and hoofs.

Mercy and truth:


Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged:

Righteousness/mercy:


Daniel 4:27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor


etc etc

The whole idea that blood is required for atonement is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one.

I know I get my entire view of Judaism from a Christian perspective. I appreciate your taking the time to explain the Jewish view to us.

I am almost completely ignorant about how modern Judaism is practiced. I think that says a lot about the churches I grew up in. We have, in many ways, lost touch with the very roots of our faith.

I know you find this hard to believe, FENRIS, but some Christians are very insular.:lol:

We worship Jesus (a Jewish man) and preach that He is the fulfillment of OT (Jewish) prophecy and scripture. Yet we often do not know or understand how OT scripture is used today by the very people that first received it.
I apologize for my ignorance and welcome any insight you can give us to the current practices of the Jewish faith.

keck553
Nov 10th 2011, 03:38 AM
Wow, seems that Abel's offering was based on grace. He sat under a shade tree and watched the flock eat grass. It also seems to me that Cain's offering was based on works. He tilled, planted, gathered, etc. Maybe that's the difference.

If you've ever rasied sheep, you would realise it's just as difficult as tilling, planting, gathering, etc.

Abel's offering was pleasing to God because be brought the first fruits of his labor, the very best he had. (brought fat portions from some of the firstborn)

Cain's offering was rejected because it was just "some grain." Probably leftovers. (some of the fruits of the soil)

Fenris
Nov 10th 2011, 11:29 AM
I apologize for my ignorance and welcome any insight you can give us to the current practices of the Jewish faith.It's a positive learning experience for all of us, myself included.

allisraelsaved
Nov 19th 2011, 07:47 AM
I am asking out of ignorance because I am interested. The question is really sparked from my reading Leviticus and the detailed instructions God gave to Moses to be performed by the peopl and priests. There are many levels of sacrifice for the individual. Why did that change and did God offer a new way?
Thanks
A Jew has to love God obey His laws and keep His Holy days. But that wont atone for their sins
But it will assure that they are in good standing of the CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL, and what does that have to do wih anything?
Well, in Lev 16 where it tells how to perform the day of atonement ceramony, verse 33 says that the atonemet was for all the people
of the congregation , not every Jew.
So when Christ returns , He acting as High Priest performs a day of atonement cermony, but because He never sinned He doesn't
have to kill a young bullock for a sin offerring for atonement for Himself. Nor does He have to kill a goat as a sin offering because
He already fulfilled that offering. So all He has to do is enter the Holy of Holies, and let seven sprinkles of His own blood on the mercy seat of the ark of the coveneant, then go out of the temple and lay both of His hands on the head of the scapegoat ( satan ) and confess and put all the sins that He had taken on Himself onto the head of the scapegoat. Where Christ wilingly took our sins satan
will have them put on him! Then an angel binds and throws satan into the bottomless pit. So Lev 16:20-22 is fulfilled by Christ
in Rev 20:1-3. And now the stain of all our sins that Christ hs been carring ( Rev 19:13 ) and all the sins that He just took from the
congregration of Israel will be forced on satan. So all the Jews that were part of the congregation of Israel that had died from the time of Christs resurrection up to the time that Christ performs this ceramony will now be clean and able to dwell with God. And Christ's
vesture will no longer be red from being dipped in blood His vesture will be white and he will be able to be one with the father again.
This would fulfill Rom 11:26,27 " And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and
turn away ungodliness from Jacob:for this is my covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.

Fenris
Nov 21st 2011, 01:50 PM
A Jew has to love God obey His laws and keep His Holy days. But that wont atone for their sins
I posted verses on how Jews atone for sin today.