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markedward
Nov 23rd 2011, 06:15 AM
English-speaking Christians often think of the God of the Bible as the one and only 'god' there is. Within the English-speaking world, this is more or less true, because the English-speaking world uses a particular definition of the word 'god'.

To English-speakers, the word 'god' almost always carries the meaning of 'omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent', and since most English-speakers are raised in a world where Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim, or deist, or Christian-ish) monotheism is the standard concept of 'god', it is generally thought that 'god' can only refer to the God of the Bible, Yahweh (though most simply know him as 'God' and not 'Yahweh', or 'Jehovah', or 'YHWH'), and hence, the God of the Bible is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

In ancient Hebrew (and hence, within the world of the ancient writers of Scripture), this is not what 'god' meant.

Their word for 'god' (elohim) most literally means something like 'mighty one', and is regularly applied to entities who are not Yahweh. And, regularly, these applications are not intended to be ironic or facetious. In Scripture: pagan deities are called 'elohim'; Yahweh's angels are called 'elohim'; humans rulers are called 'elohim'; spirits of dead humans are called 'elohim'. Only idols seem to be called 'gods' in an ironic tone, but this is primarily because of their nature as being inanimate objects (e.g. clay, wood, stone, or metal). Their inanimateness is what qualifies them as being 'false' gods, not because they are not Yahweh.

Carrying on into the New Testament, the Greek word for 'god' (theos) picks up where the Hebrew word left off. It is, again, occasionally used ironically of idols. The one time where the New Testament (apparently) specifically derides these other gods as false gods is when Paul speaks of 'those who are called gods'. But he then follows this up with 'there are many gods and many lords'. His exact meaning is unclear, and could really go either way.

The Scriptural concept of 'gods' (elohim or theos) referred to a wide range of things, but the thing that they have in common is not that they were worshiped. Yahweh, pagan deities, angels, and spirits of dead men belonged, in some way, to a 'world' beyond this one. Human rulers are sometimes called 'elohim' because they were either seen to be physically descended from gods (a very pagan concept) or had been divinely appointed by the gods (Israel's judges were said to be 'gods' because they had been appointed under Yahweh's authority).

Within the Scriptural usage of the word 'god' (elohim or theos), there are many gods, and their existence was beyond question. But whether these other gods exist as real deities (I personally find this doubtful), or are simply 'fallen' angels (maybe), or humans with great power and authority, is not determined within Scripture.

But what is to ultimately be taken away is that within the Scriptural usage of the word 'god' (elohim or theos), while 'there are many gods and many lords', there is only one true, absolutely supreme God, which is Yahweh, revealed through Jesus. He is not the one and only true God because he is simply called 'god', but because he demonstrates his absolute superiority to all other gods (real or not) through his actions, as particularly shown and emphasized in Scripture.

ewq1938
Nov 23rd 2011, 06:42 AM
What I find from this is that while scripture might refer to "other gods", it does not validate them as actual "gods". In reality, there are no gods other than the true God we know in the bible.




English-speaking Christians often think of the God of the Bible as the one and only 'god' there is. Within the English-speaking world, this is more or less true, because the English-speaking world uses a particular definition of the word 'god'.

To English-speakers, the word 'god' almost always carries the meaning of 'omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent', and since most English-speakers are raised in a world where Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim, or deist, or Christian-ish) monotheism is the standard concept of 'god', it is generally thought that 'god' can only refer to the God of the Bible, Yahweh (though most simply know him as 'God' and not 'Yahweh', or 'Jehovah', or 'YHWH'), and hence, the God of the Bible is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

In ancient Hebrew (and hence, within the world of the ancient writers of Scripture), this is not what 'god' meant.

Their word for 'god' (elohim) most literally means something like 'mighty one', and is regularly applied to entities who are not Yahweh. And, regularly, these applications are not intended to be ironic or facetious. In Scripture: pagan deities are called 'elohim'; Yahweh's angels are called 'elohim'; humans rulers are called 'elohim'; spirits of dead humans are called 'elohim'. Only idols seem to be called 'gods' in an ironic tone, but this is primarily because of their nature as being inanimate objects (e.g. clay, wood, stone, or metal). Their inanimateness is what qualifies them as being 'false' gods, not because they are not Yahweh.

Carrying on into the New Testament, the Greek word for 'god' (theos) picks up where the Hebrew word left off. It is, again, occasionally used ironically of idols. The one time where the New Testament (apparently) specifically derides these other gods as false gods is when Paul speaks of 'those who are called gods'. But he then follows this up with 'there are many gods and many lords'. His exact meaning is unclear, and could really go either way.

The Scriptural concept of 'gods' (elohim or theos) referred to a wide range of things, but the thing that they have in common is not that they were worshiped. Yahweh, pagan deities, angels, and spirits of dead men belonged, in some way, to a 'world' beyond this one. Human rulers are sometimes called 'elohim' because they were either seen to be physically descended from gods (a very pagan concept) or had been divinely appointed by the gods (Israel's judges were said to be 'gods' because they had been appointed under Yahweh's authority).

Within the Scriptural usage of the word 'god' (elohim or theos), there are many gods, and their existence was beyond question. But whether these other gods exist as real deities (I personally find this doubtful), or are simply 'fallen' angels (maybe), or humans with great power and authority, is not determined within Scripture.

But what is to ultimately be taken away is that within the Scriptural usage of the word 'god' (elohim or theos), while 'there are many gods and many lords', there is only one true, absolutely supreme God, which is Yahweh, revealed through Jesus. He is not the one and only true God because he is simply called 'god', but because he demonstrates his absolute superiority to all other gods (real or not) through his actions, as particularly shown and emphasized in Scripture.

Nihil Obstat
Nov 23rd 2011, 06:50 AM
There are numerous texts, especially within the OT, where Yahweh goes out to battle foreign gods. There are even some NT ones involving Jesus. Are you aware of such a thing? It'd be fun to go through a few of these here!

ewq1938
Nov 23rd 2011, 06:52 AM
There are numerous texts, especially within the OT, where Yahweh goes out to battle foreign gods. There are even some NT ones involving Jesus. Are you aware of such a thing? It'd be fun to go through a few of these here!

Please share them.

Nihil Obstat
Nov 23rd 2011, 07:30 AM
There's a bunch, but I don't want to bog down the thread. (Not to mention with Thanksgiving I have all my family coming tomorrow, and I'll be working a lot - on top of that my wife and I are expecting our twin boys any day now!) Recently I've been hovering over Habakkuk 3, where Yahweh declares Himself greater than Marduk. There's a few in the psalms as well: off the top of my head I remember 74 being one of them, where He is pictured victorious over Leviathan in conjunction with creation language. It's been awhile since I studied this, but I think if you research "combat myths" or "creation myths" you'll run into some great (and some not so great) material. As for Jesus, Col. 2:15 and Phil. 2:10 both seem to be of this vein, where other gods are seen to be in submission to Him. Blessings!

ewq1938
Nov 23rd 2011, 07:33 AM
There's a bunch, but I don't want to bog down the thread. (Not to mention with Thanksgiving I have all my family coming tomorrow, and I'll be working a lot - on top of that my wife and I are expecting our twin boys any day now!) Recently I've been hovering over Habakkuk 3, where Yahweh declares Himself greater than Marduk. There's a few in the psalms as well: off the top of my head I remember 74 being one of them, where He is pictured victorious over Leviathan in conjunction with creation language. It's been awhile since I studied this, but I think if you research "combat myths" or "creation myths" you'll run into some great (and some not so great) material. As for Jesus, Col. 2:15 and Phil. 2:10 both seem to be of this vein, where other gods are seen to be in submission to Him. Blessings!

Good luck with Thanksgiving and all the family visiting. Having twins will be super easy in comparison LOL (j/k)

Please continue this in detail when you have the time.

divaD
Nov 23rd 2011, 08:52 PM
Here's a question I have to ask. These other gods, no one would think they're uncreated beings, or that God didn't create them, right? I would think that they would be of satan's army, his angels, if they're real. And then we have passages like the following.

Deuteronomy 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.


Here it implies that these gods are not even real. And if we back up a bit, we see this.

Exodus 20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

So the question then is, what would they be basing these gods made with their own hands on? Real gods?

markedward
Nov 23rd 2011, 10:42 PM
Here's a question I have to ask. These other gods, no one would think they're uncreated beings, or that God didn't create them, right? I would think that they would be of satan's army, his angels, if they're real. And then we have passages like the following.This could be a possible explanation for what other gods are, but (a) this explanation is not offered by Scripture, and (b) even then, Scripture applies the word 'gods' (elohim) to angels, so it is not technically inaccurate (from a Biblical perspective) to call angels 'gods' without the qualification that they are 'false' gods.

As stated in the OP, within Scripture, the words for 'god' (elohim and theos) carry broader meanings than we give to the English word 'god'.

In English, 'god' carries the meaning of something like: a one and only supernatural entity who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Because of this English meaning of 'god', only Yahweh qualifies to be called 'god'.

In Hebrew (and NT Greek), 'god' (elohim and theos) carries the meaning of something like: an entity who belongs to or derives authority from the spiritual world. Because of this broader meaning of 'god', Yahweh, pagan deities (real or not), angels, human rulers, and spirits of dead men are each qualified to be called 'gods'.

But with this, I emphasize: just because Scripture calls them 'gods' (and leaves open whether they actually exist, as regarding the pagan deities), the mere fact that they are called 'gods' does not mean they are inherently equal to each other or that they are equal to Yahweh.

Although Scripture leaves open the question about whether pagan deities actually exist, it demonstrates the adamant belief that (whether they do or don't exist) Yahweh is the absolutely supreme god, because he alone created all things (e.g. Isaiah 44.24), he consistently disarms enemy nations and their gods (Exodus 12.12), etc.


Here it implies that these gods are not even real. And if we back up a bit, we see this.From the OP: 'Only idols seem to be called "gods" in an ironic tone, but this is primarily because of their nature as being inanimate objects (e.g. clay, wood, stone, or metal). Their inanimateness is what qualifies them as being "false" gods, not because they are not Yahweh.'

watchinginawe
Nov 23rd 2011, 11:15 PM
This could be a possible explanation for what other gods are, but (a) this explanation is not offered by Scripture, and (b) even then, Scripture applies the word 'gods' (elohim) to angels, so it is not technically inaccurate (from a Biblical perspective) to call angels 'gods' without the qualification that they are 'false' gods.

As stated in the OP, within Scripture, the words for 'god' (elohim and theos) carry broader meanings than we give to the English word 'god'.

In English, 'god' carries the meaning of something like: a one and only supernatural entity who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Because of this English meaning of 'god', only Yahweh qualifies to be called 'god'. I'm not so sure of that. English makes a clear distinction between "god(s)" the noun and "God" the proper noun. There is a distinction made when God is being referenced, right?


In Hebrew (and NT Greek), 'god' (elohim and theos) carries the meaning of something like: an entity who belongs to or derives authority from the spiritual world. Because of this broader meaning of 'god', Yahweh, pagan deities (real or not), angels, human rulers, and spirits of dead men are each qualified to be called 'gods'.

But with this, I emphasize: just because Scripture calls them 'gods' (and leaves open whether they actually exist, as regarding the pagan deities), the mere fact that they are called 'gods' does not mean they are inherently equal to each other or that they are equal to Yahweh. Depends I guess. The Jews believed that Jesus' doctrine made the claim of making Him equal to God. That was not a fault of English for sure.

watchinginawe
Nov 23rd 2011, 11:39 PM
2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

I don't think there is a limitation of the English language in understanding that "the god of this world" is not a false god but a real entity or even potentially (though not for me) an abstract love for this world. Perhaps, in the case of it representing an entity, it could be said that English does denote more power to Satan then should be, but we don't have any problem distinguishing a difference between him and "God" in the passage.

ewq1938
Nov 23rd 2011, 11:44 PM
2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

I don't think there is a limitation of the English language in understanding that "the god of this world" is not a false god but a real entity. Perhaps it could be said that English does denote more power to Satan then should be, but we don't have any problem distinguishing a difference between him and "God" in the passage.

That's not a reference to satan. satan is not the "god of the world" but is called "the prince of the world".

The one who blinds people from the truth is the one and only God:

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


The HE here is God and this is very similar language. God blinded them so they could not convert and be healed! Isn't that what the other verse is saying?

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh
for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the
spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

watchinginawe
Nov 23rd 2011, 11:48 PM
That's not a reference to satan. satan is not the "god of the world" but is called "the prince of the world".

The one who blinds people from the truth is the one and only God:

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


The HE here is God and this is very similar language. God blinded them so they could not convert and be healed! Isn't that what the other verse is saying?

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh
for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the
spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

I am certainly aware of how some see it that way, but it doesn't fit the passage well at all IMO. Even from a reformed perspective, one needn't get all worked up in saying the god of this world is Satan. Sin is what separates man from God and thus the veil, or "blinding", by which God does not remove the condition in election. However, it doesn't have to mean the God Himself blinds them, only that God Himself does not remove the blindness. Regardless, I have a hard time putting my mind in that paradigm.

ewq1938
Nov 23rd 2011, 11:56 PM
I am certainly aware of how some see it that way, but it doesn't fit the passage well at all IMO.

Scripture interprets scripture right? Does God an satan work in some odd harmony both blinding people?




However, it doesn't have to mean the God Himself blinds them, only that God Himself does not remove the blindness.

That's not what God says:

John 12:40 He (God) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

watchinginawe
Nov 24th 2011, 12:24 AM
Scripture interprets scripture right? Does God an satan work in some odd harmony both blinding people?
...
That's not what God says:

John 12:40 He (God) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. Oh, OK. That settles it then. :rolleyes: If Paul meant God, why does he add the limiter "of this age", this time of the existence of this "god" in this world?

Let me stay on topic then and reword it so as to not offend you. When, as ewq1938 accuses, the KJV uses the "small g" incorrectly in verse 4 of 2 Corinthians 4, the English language has the capability of deceiving someone into thinking the verse is speaking of someone or something else besides the "big G" God. In any event, the limitation would not be the English language.

I'm not sure I understand the point of the thread really. What English specific doctrines do we have as a result of the proposition?

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 01:17 AM
Oh, OK. That settles it then. :rolleyes: If Paul meant God, why does he add the limiter "of this age", this time of the existence of this "god" in this world?


2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the
minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious
gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Age


165

165 aion {ahee-ohn'}

from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m

AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age



forever, eternal, or eternity are proper definitions of this word.


2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this ETERNITY hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.





John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world [ 2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}]
now shall the prince of this world[ 2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}]
be cast out.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of
this world [ 2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}]cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world [ 2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}] is judged

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. [ 2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}]

ok, so Christ says he is not of this "kosmos"


ok, so [ 2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}] is the bad "world" that satan is the prince of, and whom Christ is not part of. satan is not even the god of
this "kosmos" but only a prince.

so, we have satan as the prince of the kosmos/world
but not god of the aion/eternity "world".




Let me stay on topic then and reword it so as to not offend you. When, as ewq1938 accuses, the KJV uses the "small g" incorrectly in verse 4 of 2 Corinthians 4, the English language has the capability of deceiving someone into thinking the verse is speaking of someone or something else besides the "big G" God. In any event, the limitation would not be the English language.

There are no capitals in the manuscripts. Someone was mistaken that it wasn't speaking of God and decided not to cap it. If they had capped it I doubt we'd be having this discussion lol But scripture interprets scripture and we know who is doing the blinding in this "age".

2Co 4:4 In whom the God of this age (eternity) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Which is the same thing as what is said here:

John 12:40 He (God) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.Exod 4:11-12
11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?



Exod 4:11-12

11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God blinded them, not satan.

watchinginawe
Nov 24th 2011, 02:40 AM
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the
minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious
gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Age


165

165 aion {ahee-ohn'}

from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m

AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age



forever, eternal, or eternity are proper definitions of this word. You make a particular distinction of "this word", a particular word, as in "proper definition of this word". Well, you can't just take the word aion and say it means "forever". In the verse under consideration, the phrase is "this world" or aiwnov toutou (165 + 5127). Let's look at all of them, I think there are only 11 instances contained in 10 verses of this phrase in the New Testament, so it isn't too hard.

Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Matthew 14:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mark 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I don't think there is ANY way we can read 2 Corinthians 4:4 the way you want us to, as "the God of eternity". It doesn't mean that "god" still can't be "God", but He would be "God" of "this world" in the context of all 11 occurrences above, as in the particular instance of this age or life span in this place. But in my personal opinion, I'll go with the little "g" in view of how the phrase is used everywhere else in the New Testament, especially by Paul and in the instance of "the princes of this world" (1 Corinthians 2:6, 8).

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 02:46 AM
The point of all that was to distinguish it from the "world" satan is prince of, the kosmos:

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of
this world [ 2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}]cometh, and hath nothing in me.



He isn't the prince nor god of the Aion, whatever way it is translated.



You make a particular distinction of "this word", a particular word, as in "proper definition of this word". Well, you can't just take the word aion and say it means "forever". In the verse under consideration, the phrase is "this world" or aiwnov toutou (165 + 5127). Let's look at all of them, I think there are only 11 instances contained in 10 verses of this phrase in the New Testament, so it isn't too hard.

Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Matthew 14:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mark 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I don't think there is ANY way we can read 2 Corinthians 4:4 the way you want us to, as "the God of eternity". It doesn't mean that "god" still can't be "God", but He would be "God" of "this world" in the context of all 11 occurrences above, as in the particular instance of this age or life span in this place. But in my personal opinion, I'll go with the little "g" in view of how the phrase is used everywhere else in the New Testament, especially by Paul and in the instance of "the princes of this world" (1 Corinthians 2:6, 8).

watchinginawe
Nov 24th 2011, 03:07 AM
The point of all that was to distinguish it from the "world" satan is prince of, the kosmos:

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of
this world [ 2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}]cometh, and hath nothing in me.



He isn't the prince nor god of the Aion, whatever way it is translated. Exactly, he is the god of THIS Aion, this place and age, this world; as indicated in the verses I quoted. Your "God of eternity" concept as a must interpretation against an otherwise "god of eternity" is not supported by the usage of the phrase as I have offered.

In any event, the English surely means different things with a little "g" god and the big "G" God.

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 03:16 AM
Exactly, he is the god of THIS Aion, this place and age, this world; as indicated in the verses I quoted.

But satan is not the god of anything. Especially the Aion.



In any event, the English surely means different things with a little "g" god and the big "G" God.

In English it has meaning but not in the Greek. I believe the English translation should not have put "god of the world" but "God of the world" since I believe it's speaking about God.

watchinginawe
Nov 24th 2011, 03:33 AM
But satan is not the god of anything. Especially the Aion. Ironically, markedward just might have a point after all. :yes:

divaD
Nov 24th 2011, 04:07 AM
That's not a reference to satan. satan is not the "god of the world" but is called "the prince of the world".

The one who blinds people from the truth is the one and only God:

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


The HE here is God and this is very similar language. God blinded them so they could not convert and be healed! Isn't that what the other verse is saying? Why didn't it just say it like that if you are correct?

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh
for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the
spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.




2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


This has to be understood as one thought. Think this through for a moment. Reread this several times if necessary. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,

That has to be speaking of satan. I 100% disagree that it's meaning God. Usually I never 100% disagree with anyone, unless I am fully convinced they couldn't possibly be correct.

If that passage is speaking about God having done this, then why would it matter if our gospel is hid or not? And besides, why would God be given a title like 'the god of this world ' when we don't see that title anywhere else being used of Him? Wouldn't it have been simpler to just follow the same pattern that has been used throughout the NT, and that the verse should have been stated like this instead...But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom GOD hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.?

Wouldn't that be more logical, if you were correct?

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 04:14 AM
If that passage is speaking about God having done this, then why would it matter if our gospel is hid or not?

Let me ask you a question. Has God ever blinded anyone from the gospel? Any veils over anyone's eyes? If so, why would he do that?



And besides, why would God be given a title like 'the god of this world ' when we don't see that title anywhere else being used of Him?


It only appears once ever so whoever it's about, it's only said once ever.




Wouldn't it have been simpler to just follow the same pattern that has been used throughout the NT, and that the verse should have been stated like this instead...But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom GOD hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.?

Wouldn't that be more logical, if you were correct?

That is how the verse reads lol It is the fault of a translator that it wasn't cap'd in the English. If we were Greek and only reading this in greak, we wouldn't be discussing "god" vs. "GOD" because it's a non-issue. We'd only be discussing other scriptures that identify God as the one blinding people.

divaD
Nov 24th 2011, 06:17 AM
Let me ask you a question. Has God ever blinded anyone from the gospel? Any veils over anyone's eyes? If so, why would he do that?

Yes, I already know about that, but that wouldn't have anything to do with this particular context.









That is how the verse reads lol It is the fault of a translator that it wasn't cap'd in the English. If we were Greek and only reading this in greak, we wouldn't be discussing "god" vs. "GOD" because it's a non-issue. We'd only be discussing other scriptures that identify God as the one blinding people.


I wasn't referring to the fact it wasn't cap'd. I was referring to the title itself..the god of this world. Nowhere do I recall God being given a title like that, or even a similar one. It would have simply said 'God' if that's what it meant. And not 'the god of this world'. Have you already forgotten about when satan tempted Jesus and that he said the following?

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.


How could the devil offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if he weren't the god of this world, so to speak?

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 07:08 AM
Yes, I already know about that, but that wouldn't have anything to do with this particular context.

Or does it? :)



I wasn't referring to the fact it wasn't cap'd. I was referring to the title itself..the god of this world. Nowhere do I recall God being given a title like that, or even a similar one.

Nowhere is satan given it either. It stands alone...we must try to understand it as it is, with other scriptures....which I offered.



It would have simply said 'God' if that's what it meant. And not 'the god of this world'. Have you already forgotten about when satan tempted Jesus and that he said the following?

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.


How could the devil offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if he weren't the god of this world, so to speak?

satan is the Prince of the "world"...he could offer such limited things (not sure if he could deliver but i doubt it)...that differs from whom is the "god" of the Aion, a non-limited concept.

Rullion Green
Nov 24th 2011, 05:35 PM
Israel’s view of God and his relationship to other divine beings in the Hebrew
Bible has long been the subject of scholarly debate. The dominant
critical consensus since the late nineteenth century holds that Israel’s
faith evolved from polytheism or henotheism to monotheism. Passages in
the Hebrew Bible that assume the existence of other gods are compared to
other passages that put forth the declaration that “there are no other gods
besides” the God of Israel as proof of this view. Other scholars who reject
this evolutionary paradigm tend to assume passages evincing divine plurality
actually speak of human beings, or that the other gods are merely
idols. This view insists that “monotheism” must mean that the existence
of other gods is denied. Both views are problematic and fall short of doing
justice to the full description of Israel’s view of God and the heavenly host
in the Hebrew Bible. This article overviews the difficulties of each view
and offers a coherent alternative.

This is taken from a scholarly paper on Monotheism. Due to the fact i cant upload the pdf here anyone wanting the paper can contact me through my website and i send it via email. Be warned it's 30 pages long and technical in places and assumes a knowledge of Hebrew but worth reading as it's packed with threads that run all through the OT and the NT.

simply send email stating you want the "paper on Monotheism".

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 10:35 PM
There are no capitals in the manuscripts.

Revelation 11:4 these are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the god of the earth.

Is this Satan because because it is believed that saying "god of something" rather than just "god" means that it isn't the one true God? If Satan is the supposed "god of this world" then he must also be the "god of the earth" right?

Remember, there are no capitals in the manuscripts. god and God are spelled exactly the same way so we can't go by that. Naturally context matters. Naturally using other scriptures to help us understand scriptures matter. Forget tradition, forget what has been assumed for generations and look dispassionately as all the evidence and decide who is doing the blinding in the world.

quiet dove
Nov 24th 2011, 10:54 PM
There are no capitals in the manuscripts.

Revelation 11:4 these are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the god of the earth.

Is this Satan because because it is believed that saying "god of something" rather than just "god" means that it isn't the one true God? If Satan is the supposed "god of this world" then he must also be the "god of the earth" right?

Remember, there are no capitals in the manuscripts. god and God are spelled exactly the same way so we can't go by that. Naturally context matters. Naturally using other scriptures to help us understand scriptures matter. Forget tradition, forget what has been assumed for generations and look dispassionately as all the evidence and decide who is doing the blinding in the world.

Not necessarily. Context would be our first rule. But Satan being the god of this world does not equate to God not being the God over the earth. It is a matter of dominion. God is obviously the One who is in charge, but, Satan's deception in the garden then entitled him to "dominion"....sorta. Like when God gave Adam the dominion over the earth, it made God no less God over the earth.

divaD
Nov 24th 2011, 11:03 PM
There are no capitals in the manuscripts.

Revelation 11:4 these are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the god of the earth.

Is this Satan because because it is believed that saying "god of something" rather than just "god" means that it isn't the one true God? If Satan is the supposed "god of this world" then he must also be the "god of the earth" right?

Remember, there are no capitals in the manuscripts. god and God are spelled exactly the same way so we can't go by that. Naturally context matters. Naturally using other scriptures to help us understand scriptures matter. Forget tradition, forget what has been assumed for generations and look dispassionately as all the evidence and decide who is doing the blinding in the world.




This is a good point except for one thing.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth(ge)


2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world(aion) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The fact that world and earth use different Greek words, that tells us that they likely aren't to be understood in the same sense.

So my guess might be that 2 Corinthians 4:4 is to be understood like such....In whom the god of this AGE hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

While Revelation 11:4 is to be understood like such....These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the LITERAL earth

There's a huge difference between the god of this age, and the God of the earth. Obviously the god of this age would be temporal, since this age doesn't last forever, as opposed to the God of this earth, which would be permanent, because He is the supreme God period.


Also, the issue is not whether the translators cap'd or didn't cap. No one is basing there opinion on that. I know I'm not. I'm trying to allow context to decide how something might be understood, not whether the translators cap'd or didn't cap 'God' when they used that word.

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 11:05 PM
Not necessarily. Context would be our first rule. But Satan being the god of this world does not equate to God not being the God over the earth. It is a matter of dominion. God is obviously the One who is in charge, but, Satan's deception in the garden then entitled him to "dominion"....sorta. Like when God gave Adam the dominion over the earth, it made God no less God over the earth.

Sure, sure. I was just making a point. I believe there are ample scriptures that describe the actual God of this world who is the one blinding people, putting veils over their eyes and so forth.

ewq1938
Nov 24th 2011, 11:12 PM
So my guess might be that 2 Corinthians 4:4 is to be understood like such....In whom the god of this AGE hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There's a huge difference between the god of this age, and the God of the earth. Obviously the god of this age would be temporal, since this age doesn't last forever, as opposed to the God of this earth, which would be permanent, because He is the supreme God period.

That was an original point in my first post. Aion is not a limited age. It's forever. Is satan God of this world/Aion? A world or age that does not end? It's impossible because satan himself will have an end so he can't be a god of an unending age.

I've provided several references about God blinding people. Why is this one verse about a "god" of an unending world/age so difficult? It must be that darn small g. If it was God not god, I know this wouldn't be an issue.

divaD
Nov 25th 2011, 12:28 AM
That was an original point in my first post. Aion is not a limited age. It's forever. Is satan God of this world/Aion? A world or age that does not end? It's impossible because satan himself will have an end so he can't be a god of an unending age.

I've provided several references about God blinding people. Why is this one verse about a "god" of an unending world/age so difficult? It must be that darn small g. If it was God not god, I know this wouldn't be an issue.



2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world(aion)hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world(aion), according to the will of God and our Father:

So let's see then...God is the god of this world(aion), yet at the same time, He wants to deliver us from this present evil world(aion) that He is the god of.

ewq1938
Nov 25th 2011, 12:36 AM
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world(aion)hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world(aion), according to the will of God and our Father:

So let's see then...God is the god of this world(aion), yet at the same time, He wants to deliver us from this present evil world(aion) that He is the god of.

Aion in relation to God, is unending. When Aion is unrelated to God (evil in this case) then it has a different implication.

ewq1938
Nov 25th 2011, 06:23 AM
Aion in relation to God, is unending. When Aion is unrelated to God (evil in this case) then it has a different implication.

Ok, so this was one of the most boring, tedious things I've ever done. Felt like it would take FOREVER!! LOL...Huh? Huh? Like forever as in Aion?? lol

Mat_6:13 AndG2532 leadG1533 usG2248 notG3361 intoG1519 temptation,G3986 butG235 deliverG4506 usG2248 fromG575 evil:G4190 ForG3754 thineG4675 isG2076 theG3588 kingdom,G932 andG2532 theG3588 power,G1411 andG2532 theG3588 glory,G1391 for ever.G1519 G165 Amen.G281

Here Aion does mean unending.

Mat_12:32 AndG2532 whosoeverG3739 G302 speakethG2036 a wordG3056 againstG2596 theG3588 SonG5207 of man,G444 it shall be forgivenG863 him:G846 butG1161 whosoeverG3739 G302 speakethG2036 againstG2596 theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost,G4151 it shall notG3756 be forgivenG863 him,G846 neitherG3777 inG1722 thisG5129 world,G165 neitherG3777 inG1722 theG3588 world to come.G3195

Here it doesn't but the one to come shall be everlasting.

Mat_13:22 He also that received seedG4687 G1161 amongG1519 theG3588 thornsG173 (G3778) isG2076 he that hearethG191 theG3588 word;G3056 andG2532 theG3588 careG3308 of thisG5127 world,G165 andG2532 theG3588 deceitfulnessG539 of riches,G4149 chokeG4846 theG3588 word,G3056 andG2532 he becomethG1096 unfruitful.G175

Not here.

Mat_13:39 (G1161) TheG3588 enemyG2190 that sowedG4687 themG846 isG2076 theG3588 devil;G1228 theG3588 harvestG2326 isG2076 the endG4930 of theG3588 world;G165 andG2532 theG3588 reapersG2327 areG1526 the angels.G32

Here it doesn't.

Mat_13:40 AsG5618 thereforeG3767 theG3588 taresG2215 are gatheredG4816 andG2532 burnedG2618 in the fire;G4442 soG3779 shall it beG2071 inG1722 theG3588 endG4930 of thisG5127 world.G165

Not here.

Mat_13:49 SoG3779 shall it beG2071 atG1722 theG3588 endG4930 of theG3588 world:G165 theG3588 angelsG32 shall come forth,G1831 andG2532 severG873 theG3588 wickedG4190 fromG1537 amongG3319 theG3588 just,G1342

Not here.

Mat_21:19 AndG2532 when he sawG1492 aG3391 fig treeG4808 inG1909 theG3588 way,G3598 he cameG2064 toG1909 it,G846 andG2532 foundG2147 nothingG3762 thereon,G1722 G846 butG1508 leavesG5444 only,G3440 andG2532 saidG3004 unto it,G846 Let no fruitG2590 growG1096 onG1537 theeG4675 henceforwardG3371 for ever.G1519 G165 AndG2532 presentlyG3916 theG3588 fig treeG4808 withered away.G3583

Here it does.

Mat_24:3 AndG1161 as heG846 satG2521 uponG1909 theG3588 mountG3735 of Olives,G1636 theG3588 disciplesG3101 cameG4334 unto himG846 privately,G2596 G2398 saying,G3004 TellG2036 us,G2254 whenG4219 shall these thingsG5023 be?G2071 andG2532 whatG5101 shall be theG3588 signG4592 of thyG4674 coming,G3952 andG2532 of theG3588 endG4930 of theG3588 world?G165

Not here.

Mat_28:20 TeachingG1321 themG846 to observeG5083 all thingsG3956 whatsoeverG3745 I have commandedG1781 you:G5213 and,G2532 lo,G2400 IG1473 amG1510 withG3326 youG5216 alway,G3956 G2250 even untoG2193 theG3588 endG4930 of theG3588 world.G165 Amen.G281

Not here.

Mar_3:29 ButG1161 heG3739 G302 that shall blasphemeG987 againstG1519 theG3588 HolyG40 GhostG4151 hathG2192 never forgiveness,G3756 G859 G1519 G165 butG235 isG2076 in dangerG1777 of eternalG166 damnation:G2920

Here it is, also with a sister word with same meaning.

Mar_4:19 AndG2532 theG3588 caresG3308 of thisG5127 world,G165 andG2532 theG3588 deceitfulnessG539 of riches,G4149 andG2532 theG3588 lustsG1939 ofG4012 other thingsG3062 entering in,G1531 chokeG4846 theG3588 word,G3056 andG2532 it becomethG1096 unfruitful.G175

Not here.

Mar_10:30 ButG1437 G3361 he shall receiveG2983 an hundredfoldG1542 nowG3568 inG1722 thisG5129 time,G2540 houses,G3614 andG2532 brethren,G80 andG2532 sisters,G79 andG2532 mothers,G3384 andG2532 children,G5043 andG2532 lands,G68 withG3326 persecutions;G1375 andG2532 inG1722 theG3588 worldG165 to comeG2064 eternalG166 life.G2222

The world to come shall be everlasting.

Mar_11:14 AndG2532 JesusG2424 answeredG611 and saidG2036 unto it,G846 No manG3367 eatG5315 fruitG2590 ofG1537 theeG4675 hereafterG3371 for ever.G1519 G165 AndG2532 hisG846 disciplesG3101 heardG191 it.

Here it does.

Luk_1:33 AndG2532 he shall reignG936 overG1909 theG3588 houseG3624 of JacobG2384 for ever;G1519 G165 andG2532 of hisG846 kingdomG932 there shall beG2071 noG3756 end.G5056

Here it does.

Luk_1:55 AsG2531 he spakeG2980 toG4314 ourG2257 fathers,G3962 to Abraham,G11 andG2532 to hisG846 seedG4690 for ever.G1519 G165

Here it does.

Luk_1:70 AsG2531 he spakeG2980 byG1223 the mouthG4750 of hisG848 holyG40 prophets,G4396 whichG3588 have been since the world began:G575 G165

I believe this is everlasting since the Earth shall always exist. Only "world ages" pass but not the actual world.

Luk_16:8 AndG2532 theG3588 lordG2962 commendedG1867 theG3588 unjustG93 steward,G3623 becauseG3754 he had doneG4160 wisely:G5430 forG3754 theG3588 childrenG5207 of thisG5127 worldG165 areG1526 inG1519 theirG1438 generationG1074 wiserG5429 thanG5228 theG3588 childrenG5207 of light.G5457

These children won't be everlasting. Unclear about the use of Aion here. Most likely is just a basic reference to the Earth.

Luk_18:30 WhoG3739 shall notG3364 receiveG618 manifold moreG4179 inG1722 thisG5129 present time,G2540 andG2532 inG1722 theG3588 worldG165 to comeG2064 lifeG2222 everlasting.G166

Here it is, also with a sister word with same meaning.

Luk_20:34 AndG2532 JesusG2424 answeringG611 saidG2036 unto them,G846 TheG3588 childrenG5207 of thisG5127 worldG165 marry,G1060 andG2532 are given in marriage:G1548

These children won't be everlasting. Unclear about the use of Aion here. Most likely is just a basic reference to the Earth.

Luk_20:35 ButG1161 they which shall be accounted worthyG2661 to obtainG5177 thatG1565 world,G165 andG2532 theG3588 resurrectionG386 fromG1537 the dead,G3498 neitherG3777 marry,G1060 norG3777 are given in marriage:G1548

Here it does.


Joh_4:14 ButG1161 whosoeverG3739 G302 drinkethG4095 ofG1537 theG3588 waterG5204 thatG3739 IG1473 shall giveG1325 himG846 shall neverG3364 G1519 G165 thirst;G1372 butG235 theG3588 waterG5204 thatG3739 I shall giveG1325 himG846 shall beG1096 inG1722 himG846 a wellG4077 of waterG5204 springing upG242 intoG1519 everlastingG166 life.G2222

Here it is, also with a sister word with same meaning.

Joh_6:51 IG1473 amG1510 theG3588 livingG2198 breadG740 which came downG2597 fromG1537 heaven:G3772 ifG1437 any manG5100 eatG5315 ofG1537 thisG5127 bread,G740 he shall liveG2198 for ever:G1519 G165 andG1161 theG3588 breadG740 thatG3739 IG1473 will giveG1325 isG2076 myG3450 flesh,G4561 whichG3739 IG1473 will giveG1325 forG5228 theG3588 lifeG2222 of theG3588 world.G2889

Here it does.


Joh_6:58 ThisG3778 isG2076 that breadG740 which came downG2597 fromG1537 heaven:G3772 notG3756 asG2531 yourG5216 fathersG3962 did eatG5315 manna,G3131 andG2532 are dead:G599 he that eatethG5176 of thisG5126 breadG740 shall liveG2198 for ever.G1519 G165

Here it does.

Joh_8:35 AndG1161 theG3588 servantG1401 abidethG3306 notG3756 inG1722 theG3588 houseG3614 for ever:G1519 G165 but theG3588 SonG5207 abidethG3306 ever.G1519 G165

Here it does.

Joh_8:51 Verily,G281 verily,G281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 IfG1437 a manG5100 keepG5083 myG1699 saying,G3056 he shall neverG3364 G1519 G165 seeG2334 death.G2288

Here it does.

Joh_8:52 ThenG3767 saidG2036 theG3588 JewsG2453 unto him,G846 NowG3568 we knowG1097 thatG3754 thou hastG2192 a devil.G1140 AbrahamG11 is dead,G599 andG2532 theG3588 prophets;G4396 andG2532 thouG4771 sayest,G3004 IfG1437 a manG5100 keepG5083 myG3450 saying,G3056 he shall neverG3364 G1519 G165 tasteG1089 of death.G2288

Here is does.


Joh_9:32 Since the world beganG1537 G165 was it notG3756 heardG191 thatG3754 any manG5100 openedG455 the eyesG3788 of one that was bornG1080 blind.G5185

I believe this is everlasting since the Earth shall always exist. Only "world ages" pass but not the actual world.

Joh_10:28 And IG2504 giveG1325 unto themG846 eternalG166 life;G2222 andG2532 they shall neverG3364 G1519 G165 perish,G622 neitherG2532 G3756 shall anyG5100 man pluckG726 themG846 out ofG1537 myG3450 hand.G5495

Here it is, also with a sister word with same meaning.

Joh_11:26 AndG2532 whosoeverG3956 livethG2198 andG2532 believethG4100 inG1519 meG1691 shall neverG3364 G1519 G165 die.G599 BelievestG4100 thou this?G5124

Here it does.

Joh_12:34 TheG3588 peopleG3793 answeredG611 him,G846 WeG2249 have heardG191 out ofG1537 theG3588 lawG3551 thatG3754 ChristG5547 abidethG3306 for ever:G1519 G165 andG2532 howG4459 sayestG3004 thou,G4771 TheG3588 SonG5207 of manG444 mustG1163 be lifted up?G5312 whoG5101 isG2076 thisG3778 SonG5207 of man?G444

Here it does.

Joh_13:8 PeterG4074 saithG3004 unto him,G846 Thou shalt neverG3364 G1519 G165 washG3538 myG3450 feet.G4228 JesusG2424 answeredG611 him,G846 IfG3362 I washG3538 theeG4571 not,G3756 thou hastG2192 noG3756 partG3313 withG3326 me.G1700

Here it does.

Joh_14:16 AndG2532 IG1473 will prayG2065 theG3588 Father,G3962 andG2532 he shall giveG1325 youG5213 anotherG243 Comforter,G3875 thatG2443 he may abideG3306 withG3326 youG5216 for ever;G1519 G165

Here it does.

Act_3:21 WhomG3739 the heavenG3772 mustG1163(G3303) receiveG1209 untilG891 the timesG5550 of restitutionG605 of all things,G3956 whichG3739 GodG2316 hath spokenG2980 byG1223 the mouthG4750 of allG3956 hisG848 holyG40 prophetsG4396 since the world began.G575 G165

I believe this is everlasting since the Earth shall always exist. Only "world ages" pass but not the actual world.

Act_15:18 KnownG1110 unto GodG2316 areG2076 allG3956 hisG848 worksG2041 fromG575 the beginning of the world.G165

I believe this is everlasting since the Earth shall always exist. Only "world ages" pass but not the actual world.

Rom_1:25 WhoG3748 changedG3337 theG3588 truthG225 of GodG2316 intoG1722 a lie,G5579 andG2532 worshippedG4573 andG2532 servedG3000 theG3588 creatureG2937 more thanG3844 theG3588 Creator,G2936 whoG3739 isG2076 blessedG2128 for ever.G1519 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

Rom_9:5 WhoseG3739 are theG3588 fathers,G3962 andG2532 ofG1537 whomG3739 as concerningG2596 the fleshG4561 ChristG5547 came, who isG5607 overG1909 all,G3956 GodG2316 blessedG2128 for ever.G1519 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

Rom_11:36 ForG3754 ofG1537 him,G846 andG2532 throughG1223 him,G846 andG2532 toG1519 him,G846 are all things:G3956 to whomG846 be gloryG1391 for ever.G1519 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

Rom_12:2 AndG2532 be notG3361 conformedG4964 to thisG5129 world:G165 butG235 be ye transformedG3339 by theG3588 renewingG342 of yourG5216 mind,G3563 that yeG5209 may proveG1381 whatG5101 is that good,G18 andG2532 acceptable,G2101 andG2532 perfect,G5046 willG2307 of God.G2316

Not here.

Rom_16:27 To GodG2316 onlyG3441 wise,G4680 be gloryG1391 throughG1223 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 for ever.G1519 G165 Amen.G281 Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

Here it does.

1Co_1:20 WhereG4226 is the wise?G4680 whereG4226 is the scribe?G1122 whereG4226 is the disputerG4804 of thisG5127 world?G165 hath notG3780 GodG2316 made foolishG3471 theG3588 wisdomG4678 of thisG5127 world?G2889

Not here.


1Co_2:6 HowbeitG1161 we speakG2980 wisdomG4678 amongG1722 them that are perfect:G5046 yetG1161 notG3756 the wisdomG4678 of thisG5127 world,G165 norG3761 of theG3588 princesG758 of thisG5127 world,G165 that come to nought:G2673

Not here.

1Co_2:7 ButG235 we speakG2980 the wisdomG4678 of GodG2316 inG1722 a mystery,G3466 even theG3588 hiddenG613 wisdom, whichG3739 GodG2316 ordainedG4309 beforeG4253 theG3588 worldG165 untoG1519 ourG2257 glory:G1391

I believe this is everlasting since the Earth shall always exist. Only "world ages" pass but not the actual world.

1Co_2:8 WhichG3739 noneG3762 of theG3588 princesG758 of thisG5127 worldG165 knew:G1097 forG1063 had they(G1487) knownG1097 it, they would notG3756 have(G302) crucifiedG4717 theG3588 LordG2962 of glory.G1391

Not here.



1Co_3:18 Let no manG3367 deceiveG1818 himself.G1438 If any manG1536 amongG1722 youG5213 seemethG1380 to beG1511 wiseG4680 inG1722 thisG5129 world,G165 let him becomeG1096 a fool,G3474 thatG2443 he may beG1096 wise.G4680

Not here.

1Co_8:13 Wherefore,G1355 ifG1487 meatG1033 make my brother to offend,G4624 G3450 G80 I will eatG5315 noG3364 fleshG2907 while the world standeth,G1519 G3588 G165 lestG3363 I make my brother to offend.G4624 G3450 G80

I believe this is everlasting since the Earth shall always exist. Only "world ages" pass but not the actual world.

1Co_10:11 NowG1161 allG3956 these thingsG5023 happenedG4819 unto themG1565 for ensamples:G5179 andG1161 they are writtenG1125 forG4314 ourG2257 admonition,G3559 uponG1519 whomG3739 theG3588 endsG5056 of theG3588 worldG165 are come.G2658

Not here.

2Co_4:4 InG1722 whomG3739 theG3588 godG2316 of thisG5127 worldG165 hath blindedG5186 theG3588 mindsG3540 of them which believe not,G571 lestG3361 theG3588 lightG5462 of theG3588 gloriousG1391 gospelG2098 of Christ,G5547 whoG3739 isG2076 the imageG1504 of God,G2316 should shineG826 unto them.G846

And here we have the disputed verse. Is this "god" the one and true God who is the God of a world/Earth that will exist forever, or is it the limited bad "world age" that a false god rules? I have yet to see a scripture that identifies satan as ruler, Prince, King or "god" over the Aion world.

2Co_9:9 (AsG2531 it is written,G1125 He hath dispersed abroad;G4650 he hath givenG1325 to theG3588 poor:G3993 hisG846 righteousnessG1343 remainethG3306 for ever.G1519 G165

Here it does.

2Co_11:31 TheG3588 GodG2316 andG2532 FatherG3962 of ourG2257 LordG2962 JesusG2424 Christ,G5547 which isG5607 blessedG2128 for evermore,G1519 G165 knowethG1492 thatG3754 I lieG5574 not.G3756

Here it does.

Gal_1:4 Who gaveG1325 himselfG1438 forG5228 ourG2257 sins,G266 thatG3704 he might deliverG1807 usG2248 fromG1537 this presentG1764 evilG4190 world,G165 accordingG2596 to theG3588 willG2307 of GodG2316 andG2532 ourG2257 Father:G3962

Not here.

Gal_1:5 To whomG3739 be gloryG1391 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

Eph_1:21 Far aboveG5231 allG3956 principality,G746 andG2532 power,G1849 andG2532 might,G1411 andG2532 dominion,G2963 andG2532 everyG3956 nameG3686 that is named,G3687 notG3756 onlyG3440 inG1722 thisG5129 world,G165 butG235 alsoG2532 inG1722 that which is to come:G3195

Not here.

Eph_2:2 WhereinG1722 G3739 in time pastG4218 ye walkedG4043 accordingG2596 to theG3588 courseG165 of thisG5127 world,G2889 accordingG2596 to theG3588 princeG758 of theG3588 powerG1849 of theG3588 air,G109 theG3588 spiritG4151 that now workethG1754 G3568 inG1722 theG3588 childrenG5207 of disobedience:G543

Not here.

Eph_2:7 ThatG2443 inG1722 theG3588 agesG165 to comeG1904 he might shewG1731 theG3588 exceedingG5235 richesG4149 of hisG848 graceG5485 inG1722 his kindnessG5544 towardG1909 usG2248 throughG1722 ChristG5547 Jesus.G2424

Though this is plural, I'm going to say it's still speaking of everlasting ages.

Eph_3:9 AndG2532 to make all men seeG5461 G3956 whatG5101 is theG3588 fellowshipG2842 of theG3588 mystery,G3466 which fromG575 theG3588 beginning of the worldG165 hath been hidG613 inG1722 God,G2316 who createdG2936 all thingsG3956 byG1223 JesusG2424 Christ:G5547

I believe this is everlasting since the Earth shall always exist. Only "world ages" pass but not the actual world.

Eph_3:11 AccordingG2596 to theG3588 eternalG165 purposeG4286 whichG3739 he purposedG4160 inG1722 ChristG5547 JesusG2424 ourG2257 Lord:G2962

Here it does.

Eph_3:21 Unto himG846 be gloryG1391 inG1722 theG3588 churchG1577 byG1722 ChristG5547 JesusG2424 throughoutG1519 allG3956 ages,G1074 world without end.G165 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

Eph_6:12 ForG3754 weG2254 wrestleG2076 G3823 notG3756 againstG4314 fleshG4561 andG2532 blood,G129 butG235 againstG4314 principalities,G746 againstG4314 powers,G1849 againstG4314 theG3588 rulersG2888 of theG3588 darknessG4655 of thisG5127 world,G165 againstG4314 spiritualG4152 wickednessG4189 inG1722 highG2032 places.

Not here.

Php_4:20 NowG1161 unto GodG2316 andG2532 ourG2257 FatherG3962 be gloryG1391 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

Col_1:26 Even theG3588 mysteryG3466 which hath been hidG613 fromG575 agesG165 andG2532 fromG575 generations,G1074 butG1161 nowG3570 is made manifestG5319 to hisG846 saints:G40

Not really sure here.

1Ti_1:17 NowG1161 unto theG3588 KingG935 eternal,G165 immortal,G862 invisible,G517 the onlyG3441 wiseG4680 God,G2316 be honourG5092 andG2532 gloryG1391 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

1Ti_6:17 ChargeG3853 them that are richG4145 inG1722 this world,G3568 G165 that they be not highminded,G5309 G3361 norG3366 trustG1679 inG1909 uncertainG83 riches,G4149 butG235 inG1722 theG3588 livingG2198 God,G2316 who givethG3930 usG2254 richlyG4146 all thingsG3956 toG1519 enjoy;G619

Not here.

2Ti_4:10 ForG1063 DemasG1214 hath forsakenG1459 me,G3165 having lovedG25 this presentG3568 world,G165 andG2532 is departedG4198 untoG1519 Thessalonica;G2332 CrescensG2913 toG1519 Galatia,G1053 TitusG5103 untoG1519 Dalmatia.G1149

Not here.

2Ti_4:18 AndG2532 theG3588 LordG2962 shall deliverG4506 meG3165 fromG575 everyG3956 evilG4190 work,G2041 andG2532 will preserveG4982 me untoG1519 hisG848 heavenlyG2032 kingdom:G932 to whomG3739 be gloryG1391 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

Tit_2:12 TeachingG3811 usG2248 that,G2443 denyingG720 ungodlinessG763 andG2532 worldlyG2886 lusts,G1939 we should liveG2198 soberly, righteously,G4996 (G1346) andG2532 godly,G2153 inG1722 this presentG3568 world;G165

Not here.

Heb_1:2 Hath inG1909 theseG5130 lastG2078 daysG2250 spokenG2980 unto usG2254 byG1722 his Son,G5207 whomG3739 he hath appointedG5087 heirG2818 of all things,G3956 byG1223 whomG3739 alsoG2532 he madeG4160 theG3588 worlds;G165


I believe this is everlasting since the Earth shall always exist. Only "world ages" pass but not the actual world.

Heb_1:8 ButG1161 untoG4314 theG3588 SonG5207 he saith, ThyG4675 throne,G2362 O God,G2316 is for ever and ever:G1519 G165 G165 a sceptreG4464 of righteousnessG2118 is theG3588 sceptreG4464 of thyG4675 kingdom.G932

Here it does.

Heb_5:6 AsG2531 he saithG3004 alsoG2532 inG1722 anotherG2087 place, ThouG4771 art a priestG2409 for everG1519 G165 afterG2596 theG3588 orderG5010 of Melchisedec.G3198

Here it does.

Heb_6:5 AndG2532 have tastedG1089 the goodG2570 wordG4487 of God,G2316 andG5037 the powersG1411 of the worldG165 to come,G3195

Here it does.

Heb_6:20 WhitherG3699 the forerunnerG4274 is forG5228 usG2257 entered,G1525 even Jesus,G2424 madeG1096 an high priestG749 for everG1519 G165 afterG2596 theG3588 orderG5010 of Melchisedec.G3198

Here it does.

Heb_7:17 ForG1063 he testifieth,G3140 ThouG4771 art a priestG2409 for everG1519 G165 afterG2596 theG3588 orderG5010 of Melchisedec.G3198

Here it does.

Heb_7:21 (ForG1063 those priestsG2409(G3303) wereG1526 madeG1096 withoutG5565 an oath;G3728 butG1161 thisG3588 withG3326 an oathG3728 byG1223 him that saidG3004 untoG4314 him,G846 The LordG2962 swareG3660 andG2532 will notG3756 repent,G3338 ThouG4771 art a priestG2409 for everG1519 G165 afterG2596 theG3588 orderG5010 of Melchisedec:)G3198

Here it does.

Heb_7:24 ButG1161 thisG3588 man, because heG846 continuethG3306 ever,G1519 G165 hathG2192 an unchangeableG531 priesthood.G2420

Here it does.

Heb_7:28 ForG1063 theG3588 lawG3551 makethG2525 menG444 high priestsG749 which haveG2192 infirmity;G769 butG1161 theG3588 wordG3056 of theG3588 oath,G3728 whichG3588 was sinceG3326 theG3588 law,G3551 maketh the Son,G5207 who is consecratedG5048 for evermore.G1519 G165

Here it does.

Heb_9:26 For thenG1893 mustG1163 heG846 oftenG4178 have sufferedG3958 sinceG575 the foundationG2602 of the world:G2889 butG1161 nowG3568 onceG530 inG1909 the endG4930 of theG3588 worldG165 hath he appearedG5319 to put awayG1519 G115 sinG266 byG1223 theG3588 sacrificeG2378 of himself.G848

Not here.

Heb_11:3 Through faithG4102 we understandG3539 that theG3588 worldsG165 were framedG2675 by the wordG4487 of God,G2316 so that things which are seenG991 were notG3361 madeG1096 ofG1537 things which do appear.G5316

I believe this is everlasting since the Earth shall always exist. Only "world ages" pass but not the actual world.

Heb_13:8 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 theG3588 sameG846 yesterday,G5504 andG2532 to day,G4594 andG2532 for ever.G1519 G165

Here it does.

Heb_13:21 Make you perfectG2675 G5209 inG1722 everyG3956 goodG18 workG2041 to doG4160 hisG848 will,G2307 workingG4160 inG1722 youG5213 that which is wellpleasingG2101 in his sight,G1799 G848 throughG1223 JesusG2424 Christ;G5547 to whomG3739 be gloryG1391 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

1Pe_1:23 Being born again,G313 notG3756 ofG1537 corruptibleG5349 seed,G4701 butG235 of incorruptible,G862 byG1223 the wordG3056 of God,G2316 which livethG2198 andG2532 abidethG3306 for ever.G1519 G165

Here it does.

1Pe_1:25 ButG1161 theG3588 wordG4487 of the LordG2962 endurethG3306 for ever.G1519 G165 AndG1161 thisG5124 isG2076 theG3588 wordG4487 which by the gospel is preachedG2097 untoG1519 you.G5209

Here it does.

1Pe_4:11 If any manG1536 speak,G2980 let him speak asG5613 the oraclesG3051 of God;G2316 if any manG1536 minister,G1247 let him do it asG5613 ofG1537 the abilityG2479 whichG3739 GodG2316 giveth:G5524 thatG2443 GodG2316 inG1722 all thingsG3956 may be glorifiedG1392 throughG1223 JesusG2424 Christ,G5547 to whomG3739 beG2076 praiseG1391 andG2532 dominionG2904 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

1Pe_5:11 To himG846 be gloryG1391 andG2532 dominionG2904 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

2Pe_2:17 TheseG3778 areG1526 wellsG4077 without water,G504 cloudsG3507 that are carriedG1643 withG5259 a tempest;G2978 to whomG3739 theG3588 mistG2217 of darknessG4655 is reservedG5083 for ever.G1519 G165

Here it does.

2Pe_3:18 ButG1161 growG837 inG1722 grace,G5485 andG2532 in the knowledgeG1108 of ourG2257 LordG2962 andG2532 SaviourG4990 JesusG2424 Christ.G5547 To himG846 be gloryG1391 bothG2532 nowG3568 andG2532 for ever.G1519 G2250 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

1Jn_2:17 AndG2532 theG3588 worldG2889 passeth away,G3855 andG2532 theG3588 lustG1939 thereof:G848 butG1161 he that doethG4160 theG3588 willG2307 of GodG2316 abidethG3306 for ever.G1519 G165

Here it does.

2Jn_1:2 For the truth's sake,G1223 G3588 G225 which dwellethG3306 inG1722 us,G2254 andG2532 shall beG2071 withG3326 usG2257 for ever.G1519 G165

Here it does.

Jud_1:13 RagingG66 wavesG2949 of the sea,G2281 foaming outG1890 their ownG1438 shame;G152 wanderingG4107 stars,G792 to whomG3739 is reservedG5083 theG3588 blacknessG2217 of darknessG4655 for ever.G1519 G165

Here it does.

Jud_1:25 To the onlyG3441 wiseG4680 GodG2316 ourG2257 Saviour,G4990 be gloryG1391 andG2532 majesty,G3172 dominionG2904 andG2532 power,G1849 bothG2532 nowG3568 andG2532 ever.G1519 G3956 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

Rev_1:6 AndG2532 hath madeG4160 usG2248 kingsG935 andG2532 priestsG2409 unto GodG2316 andG2532 hisG848 Father;G3962 to himG846 be gloryG1391 andG2532 dominionG2904 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

Rev_1:18 (G2532) I am he that liveth,G2198 andG2532 wasG1096 dead;G3498 and,G2532 behold,G2400 I amG1510 aliveG2198 for evermore,G1519 G165 G165 Amen;G281 andG2532 haveG2192 theG3588 keysG2807 of hellG86 andG2532 of death.G2288

Here it does.

Rev_4:9 AndG2532 whenG3752 those beastsG2226 giveG1325 gloryG1391 andG2532 honourG5092 andG2532 thanksG2169 to him that satG2521 onG1909 theG3588 throne,G2362 who livethG2198 for ever and ever,G1519 G165 G165

Here it does.

Rev_4:10 TheG3588 four and twentyG5064 G2532 G1501 eldersG4245 fall downG4098 beforeG1799 him that satG2521 onG1909 theG3588 throne,G2362 andG2532 worshipG4352 him that livethG2198 for ever and ever,G1519 G165 G165 andG2532 castG906 theirG848 crownsG4735 beforeG1799 theG3588 throne,G2362 saying,G3004

Here it does.

Rev_5:13 AndG2532 everyG3956 creatureG2938 whichG3739 isG2076 inG1722 heaven,G3772 andG2532 onG1722 theG3588 earth,G1093 andG2532 underG5270 theG3588 earth,G1093 andG2532 such asG3739 areG2076 inG1909 theG3588 sea,G2281 andG2532 allG3956 thatG3588 are inG1722 them,G846 heardG191 I saying,G3004 Blessing,G2129 andG2532 honour,G5092 andG2532 glory,G1391 andG2532 power,G2904 be unto him that sittethG2521 uponG1909 theG3588 throne,G2362 andG2532 unto theG3588 LambG721 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

Here it does.

Rev_5:14 AndG2532 theG3588 fourG5064 beastsG2226 said,G3004 Amen.G281 AndG2532 theG3588 four and twentyG1501 G5064 eldersG4245 fell downG4098 andG2532 worshippedG4352 him that livethG2198 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

Here it does.

Rev_7:12 Saying,G3004 Amen:G281 Blessing,G2129 andG2532 glory,G1391 andG2532 wisdom,G4678 andG2532 thanksgiving,G2169 andG2532 honour,G5092 andG2532 power,G1411 andG2532 might,G2479 be unto ourG2257 GodG2316 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165 Amen.G281

Here it does.

Rev_10:6 AndG2532 swareG3660 byG1722 him that livethG2198 for ever and ever,G1519 G165 G165 whoG3739 createdG2936 heaven,G3772 andG2532 the thingsG3588 that thereinG1722 G846 are, andG2532 theG3588 earth,G1093 andG2532 the thingsG3588 that thereinG1722 G846 are, andG2532 theG3588 sea,G2281 andG2532 the thingsG3588 which are therein,G1722 G846 thatG3754 there should beG2071 timeG5550 noG3756 longer:G2089

Here it does.

Rev_11:15 AndG2532 theG3588 seventhG1442 angelG32 sounded;G4537 andG2532 there wereG1096 greatG3173 voicesG5456 inG1722 heaven,G3772 saying,G3004 TheG3588 kingdomsG932 of this worldG2889 are becomeG1096 the kingdoms of ourG2257 Lord,G2962 andG2532 of hisG848 Christ;G5547 andG2532 he shall reignG936 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

Here it does.

Rev_14:11 AndG2532 theG3588 smokeG2586 of theirG848 tormentG929 ascendeth upG305 for ever and ever:G1519 G165 G165 andG2532 they haveG2192 noG3756 restG372 dayG2250 norG2532 night,G3571 who worshipG4352 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 hisG848 image,G1504 andG2532 whosoeverG1536 receivethG2983 theG3588 markG5480 of hisG848 name.G3686

Here it does.

Rev_15:7 AndG2532 oneG1520 ofG1537 theG3588 fourG5064 beastsG2226 gaveG1325 unto theG3588 sevenG2033 angelsG32 sevenG2033 goldenG5552 vialsG5357 fullG1073 of theG3588 wrathG2372 of God,G2316 who livethG2198 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

Here it does.

Rev_19:3 AndG2532 againG1208 they said,G2046 Alleluia.G239 AndG2532 herG848 smokeG2586 rose upG305 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

Here it does.

Rev_20:10 AndG2532 theG3588 devilG1228 that deceivedG4105 themG846 was castG906 intoG1519 theG3588 lakeG3041 of fireG4442 andG2532 brimstone,G2303 whereG3699 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 theG3588 false prophetG5578 are, andG2532 shall be tormentedG928 dayG2250 andG2532 nightG3571 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

Here it does.

Rev_22:5 AndG2532 there shall beG2071 noG3756 nightG3571 there;G1563 andG2532 they needG2192 G5532 noG3756 candle,G3088 neitherG2532 lightG5457 of the sun;G2246 for the LordG2962 GodG2316 giveth them light:G5461 G846 andG2532 they shall reignG936 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

Here it does.

Oddly enough ever time it appears in Revelation it has the meaning of "everlasting".

Basically either the word is used in connection with the end of a wicked world and it's a limited timeframe, or it's associated with rewards or related to God and it's forever, or the word "never" is used which means "never forever".

watchinginawe
Nov 25th 2011, 02:26 PM
Ok, so this was one of the most boring, tedious things I've ever done. Felt like it would take FOREVER!! LOL...Huh? Huh? Like forever as in Aion?? lol
...
Mat_13:22 He also that received seedG4687 G1161 amongG1519 theG3588 thornsG173 (G3778) isG2076 he that hearethG191 theG3588 word;G3056 andG2532 theG3588 careG3308 of thisG5127 world,G165 andG2532 theG3588 deceitfulnessG539 of riches,G4149 chokeG4846 theG3588 word,G3056 andG2532 he becomethG1096 unfruitful.G175

Not here.

Mat_13:40 AsG5618 thereforeG3767 theG3588 taresG2215 are gatheredG4816 andG2532 burnedG2618 in the fire;G4442 soG3779 shall it beG2071 inG1722 theG3588 endG4930 of thisG5127 world.G165

Not here.

Mar_4:19 AndG2532 theG3588 caresG3308 of thisG5127 world,G165 andG2532 theG3588 deceitfulnessG539 of riches,G4149 andG2532 theG3588 lustsG1939 ofG4012 other thingsG3062 entering in,G1531 chokeG4846 theG3588 word,G3056 andG2532 it becomethG1096 unfruitful.G175

Not here.

Luk_16:8 AndG2532 theG3588 lordG2962 commendedG1867 theG3588 unjustG93 steward,G3623 becauseG3754 he had doneG4160 wisely:G5430 forG3754 theG3588 childrenG5207 of thisG5127 worldG165 areG1526 inG1519 theirG1438 generationG1074 wiserG5429 thanG5228 theG3588 childrenG5207 of light.G5457

These children won't be everlasting. Unclear about the use of Aion here. Most likely is just a basic reference to the Earth.

Luk_20:34 AndG2532 JesusG2424 answeringG611 saidG2036 unto them,G846 TheG3588 childrenG5207 of thisG5127 worldG165 marry,G1060 andG2532 are given in marriage:G1548

These children won't be everlasting. Unclear about the use of Aion here. Most likely is just a basic reference to the Earth.

1Co_1:20 WhereG4226 is the wise?G4680 whereG4226 is the scribe?G1122 whereG4226 is the disputerG4804 of thisG5127 world?G165 hath notG3780 GodG2316 made foolishG3471 theG3588 wisdomG4678 of thisG5127 world?G2889

Not here.


1Co_2:6 HowbeitG1161 we speakG2980 wisdomG4678 amongG1722 them that are perfect:G5046 yetG1161 notG3756 the wisdomG4678 of thisG5127 world,G165 norG3761 of theG3588 princesG758 of thisG5127 world,G165 that come to nought:G2673

Not here.

1Co_2:8 WhichG3739 noneG3762 of theG3588 princesG758 of thisG5127 worldG165 knew:G1097 forG1063 had they(G1487) knownG1097 it, they would notG3756 have(G302) crucifiedG4717 theG3588 LordG2962 of glory.G1391

Not here.

2Co_4:4 InG1722 whomG3739 theG3588 godG2316 of thisG5127 worldG165 hath blindedG5186 theG3588 mindsG3540 of them which believe not,G571 lestG3361 theG3588 lightG5462 of theG3588 gloriousG1391 gospelG2098 of Christ,G5547 whoG3739 isG2076 the imageG1504 of God,G2316 should shineG826 unto them.G846

And here we have the disputed verse. Is this "god" the one and true God who is the God of a world/Earth that will exist forever, or is it the limited bad "world age" that a false god rules? I have yet to see a scripture that identifies satan as ruler, Prince, King or "god" over the Aion world.

Eph_6:12 ForG3754 weG2254 wrestleG2076 G3823 notG3756 againstG4314 fleshG4561 andG2532 blood,G129 butG235 againstG4314 principalities,G746 againstG4314 powers,G1849 againstG4314 theG3588 rulersG2888 of theG3588 darknessG4655 of thisG5127 world,G165 againstG4314 spiritualG4152 wickednessG4189 inG1722 highG2032 places.

Not here.
...
Basically either the word is used in connection with the end of a wicked world and it's a limited timeframe, or it's associated with rewards or related to God and it's forever, or the word "never" is used which means "never forever". This kind of makes me wonder if you even gave my earlier post any consideration at all, but I understand how important it is to sometimes work things out by doing the work for one's self.

I have picked out of your research the eleven occurrances of "this world", or the Greek phrase aiwnov toutou (165 + 5127). It is pretty obvious that in no case does it refer to an eternity, as in "this eternity".

watchinginawe
Nov 25th 2011, 02:38 PM
That was an original point in my first post. Aion is not a limited age. It's forever. I think you have shown yourself that this is not true.


Is satan God of this world/Aion? A world or age that does not end? It's impossible because satan himself will have an end so he can't be a god of an unending age. So now the question is whether the writer meant that Satan is the "god" of this ENDING age in this place.


I've provided several references about God blinding people. Why is this one verse about a "god" of an unending world/age so difficult? It must be that darn small g. If it was God not god, I know this wouldn't be an issue. This remains the last hangup apparently. Please decode the following words of Jesus and see how they match up with Paul's version:

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

divaD
Nov 25th 2011, 02:58 PM
Ok, so this was one of the most boring, tedious things I've ever done. Felt like it would take FOREVER!! LOL...Huh? Huh? Like forever as in Aion?? lol

.


Ok, I haven't read all of this as yet. I'm still scrolling thru it, lol. I figure another day or two I might get to the bottom of it, lol.

divaD
Nov 25th 2011, 03:00 PM
Like when God gave Adam the dominion over the earth, it made God no less God over the earth.


Exactly! And it's that simple.

rom826
Nov 25th 2011, 04:03 PM
I tim 4:3-4
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


The true God wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

divaD
Nov 25th 2011, 04:53 PM
This remains the last hangup apparently. Please decode the following words of Jesus and see how they match up with Paul's version:

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



That's a great comparison. I would have never thought of that.

ewq1938
Nov 25th 2011, 09:14 PM
This kind of makes me wonder if you even gave my earlier post any consideration at all, but I understand how important it is to sometimes work things out by doing the work for one's self.

I have picked out of your research the eleven occurrances of "this world", or the Greek phrase aiwnov toutou (165 + 5127). It is pretty obvious that in no case does it refer to an eternity, as in "this eternity".

Which verses are you referring to specifically?

watchinginawe
Nov 25th 2011, 09:23 PM
Which verses are you referring to specifically?

Are you serious, or pulling my leg?

ewq1938
Nov 25th 2011, 09:31 PM
I think you have shown yourself that this is not true.

No I proved it is true in relation to God, rewards and other things. It only is a limited age when in reference to the evil, temporary world we live in.




This remains the last hangup apparently. Please decode the following words of Jesus and see how they match up with Paul's version:

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Luke didn't use the term blinding because it's not about blinding but THEFT. The parable is concerning the word of God being stolen from people. But scripture speaks of God blinding:

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God did this, not satan. Once blinded, satan can take "the word out of their hearts" but they were blinded by God.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

Who made it so they could not see? Who blinded them? God.

Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isaiah 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

And the OT original. God does the blinding.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God blinded them, not satan.

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

ewq1938
Nov 25th 2011, 09:51 PM
Are you serious, or pulling my leg?

I posted every example of the word Aion and you said 11 didn't match "eternal" so I need to know which 11 you disagreed with.

watchinginawe
Nov 25th 2011, 11:05 PM
I posted every example of the word Aion and you said 11 didn't match "eternal" so I need to know which 11 you disagreed with. I can only suggest for you to review your own post (and my previous post where I had already done the work), from which I took the only 11 occurrences in 10 New Testament verses. Here is your research regarding 2 Corinthians 4:4

2Co_4:4 InG1722 whomG3739 theG3588 godG2316 of thisG5127 worldG165 hath blindedG5186 theG3588 mindsG3540 of them which believe not,G571 lestG3361 theG3588 lightG5462 of theG3588 gloriousG1391 gospelG2098 of Christ,G5547 whoG3739 isG2076 the imageG1504 of God,G2316 should shineG826 unto them.G846

Now, go through all the verses you pulled and find thisG5127 worldG165 . In the original Greek, the phrase word order is reversed.

There are ONLY 11 occurrences in all of the New Testament (TR) of the word order aiwnov toutou (165 + 5127), one of which is found in the subject verse 2 Corinthians 4:4. These 11 occurrences are found in ONLY 10 verses in all of the New Testament (TR) and they were all present in your research of the word aiwnov (165). I extracted all verses (the 10 verses) where you yourself said that none of the other 9 verses meant unending, everlasting, or forever.

We could expand beyond these 11 occurrences to see the principle (like 1 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 10:11), but it isn't necessary.

In the parable of the sower, Jesus states that Satan is responsible for the word of God not being believed. In 2 Corinthians 4:4, Satan is responsible for the word of God not being believed. However, you want to make the point a distinction between theft and blinding in how belief is not present. :dunno:

In any event, I suppose we should just let this one be.

Realist1981
Nov 26th 2011, 11:18 AM
satan is the god of this age/world. He offered Jesus his dominion in exchange for worship. Whether you want to call him god, prince or whatever satan was the entity that Paul was alluding to. Neither Paul nor nobody else in scripture has ever referred to YHWH as "the god of this world".

ewq1938
Nov 26th 2011, 10:05 PM
I can only suggest for you to review your own post (and my previous post where I had already done the work), from which I took the only 11 occurrences in 10 New Testament verses. Here is your research regarding 2 Corinthians 4:4

2Co_4:4 InG1722 whomG3739 theG3588 godG2316 of thisG5127 worldG165 hath blindedG5186 theG3588 mindsG3540 of them which believe not,G571 lestG3361 theG3588 lightG5462 of theG3588 gloriousG1391 gospelG2098 of Christ,G5547 whoG3739 isG2076 the imageG1504 of God,G2316 should shineG826 unto them.G846

Now, go through all the verses you pulled and find thisG5127 worldG165 . In the original Greek, the phrase word order is reversed.

The two words "thisG5127 worldG165" cannot set the context alone. The entire verse and chapter must be examined.



In the parable of the sower, Jesus states that Satan is responsible for the word of God not being believed. In 2 Corinthians 4:4, Satan is responsible for the word of God not being believed. However, you want to make the point a distinction between theft and blinding in how belief is not present. :dunno:



It's a distinction. If you could have shown a verse that said he blinded people outside of the one in dispute then you'd have something solid but all other verses that speak of blinding people say that God, the God of this world/Aion, is doing the blinding and making certain some people cannot believe the word of God.



John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God, the God of this world/Aion, is doing the blinding and making certain some people cannot believe the word of God.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

God, the God of this world/Aion, is doing the blinding and making certain some people cannot believe the word of God.

Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isaiah 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

God, the God of this world/Aion, is doing the blinding and making certain some people cannot believe the word of God.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God, the God of this world/Aion, is doing the blinding and making certain some people cannot believe the word of God.

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

God, the God of this world/Aion, is doing the blinding and making certain some people cannot believe the word of God.

How do you answer these clear examples? Satan isn't the one doing all of this blinding, all of this keeping people from the truth....it's God.

ewq1938
Nov 26th 2011, 10:13 PM
Whether you want to call him god, prince or whatever satan was the entity that Paul was alluding to. Neither Paul nor nobody else in scripture has ever referred to YHWH as "the god of this world".

Rev_11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

This has the same meaning. I'd like to see a verse that calls satan a "god" or that he blinds anyone from the truth outside of the verse in dispute.

divaD
Nov 27th 2011, 03:31 AM
How do you answer these clear examples? Satan isn't the one doing all of this blinding, all of this keeping people from the truth....it's God.



Let's test that theory out. No doubt, and no one is even arguing the point, indeed God can blind eyes, but so can satan.

1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

So then, the reason this brother hatest his brother is because God has blinded his eyes and causes him to walk in darkness?

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Where have we heard something similar?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

It sounds like to me that this would make that person in 1 John 2:4 a child of the devil, and not a child of God. Matthew 7 seems to bring a little light to that fact.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here it says...but he that doeth the will of my Father. If one doesn't do the will of the Father, that would be the same as not keeping His commandments. Those in 1 John 2:4 claim to know Him, as do these in Matthew 7:21-23. But guess what their fate is?

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


My whole point with this is to show that satan too can blind eyes, yet you seem to think only God can and does. If a brother hates another brother, that's not God causing that to happen, satan and his ilk is behind it. It all goes back to the days when Cain went against Abel and slew him. satan was behind that, you can bet on it.

Realist1981
Nov 27th 2011, 05:56 AM
Rev_11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

This has the same meaning. I'd like to see a verse that calls satan a "god" or that he blinds anyone from the truth outside of the verse in dispute.


FACT: Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament is YHWH referred to as the God of this world.

There's a better chance that Paul was writing about Bam Bam the Flintstone kid than YHWH in that scripture you're trying to twist.

ewq1938
Nov 27th 2011, 09:52 AM
Let's test that theory out. No doubt, and no one is even arguing the point, indeed God can blind eyes, but so can satan.

1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

So then, the reason this brother hatest his brother is because God has blinded his eyes and causes him to walk in darkness?

We are speaking of a certain blinding which causes people not to be able to accept Christ not the hatred of a person blinding them from loving a brother that did nothing to be hated.


1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Where have we heard something similar?

Truth is not in a liar. Not related to this specific topic.



John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

It sounds like to me that this would make that person in 1 John 2:4 a child of the devil, and not a child of God. Matthew 7 seems to bring a little light to that fact.

This is getting too far from the topic at hand. We have numerous passages that everyone agrees is God blinding people from accepting the truth of Christ. Then we have one single verse where a translator decided to use a lower case g on "god" and the verse is still about someone who is a "god" blinding people from accepting Christ. Can we really say both God and satan are doing the same exact thing to the same exact people? Of course not. It's either God doing it and not satan or satan doing it and not God.

ewq1938
Nov 27th 2011, 11:39 AM
Let's test that theory out. No doubt, and no one is even arguing the point, indeed God can blind eyes, but so can satan.

I prepared this for you and everyone who is genuinely interested in the subject. My apologies to the OP, this probably should be in it's own thread but until that's needed or requested:


I have removed capitals because they don't exist in the manuscripts and I don't want the concept of capitals interfering with understanding what is being said. I also removed the verse numbers so it can be read naturally as Paul intended.


2Co 3:11 through 2Co 4:15

for if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
and not as moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in christ.
but even unto this day, when moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

*God blinded these people and even today that blindness remains.

nevertheless when it shall turn to the lord, the vail shall be taken away.
now the lord is that spirit: and where the spirit of the lord is, there is liberty.
but we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the spirit of the lord.
therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of god deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of god.
but if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

*Context matters and the context here is regarding God blinding Israel. Was Israel lost? Was the Gospel hidden from them? Yes. Jer_50:6 "My people hath been lost sheep" . Who the lost are here, the ones that the gospel is hidden from is all here in this letter. Israel.

in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of christ, who is the image of god, should shine unto them.

*Keeping context sound, there has no no abrupt change inserting satan into this dialogue. The subject is Israel, the ones who are lost, the ones God blinded, the ones the Gospel was hidden from. "god" here is the same "god" Paul has been speaking of and the ones being blinded by this "god" are the same ones Paul just mentioned literally a handful of sentences before! Israel.

for we preach not ourselves, but christ jesus the lord; and ourselves your servants for jesus' sake.
for god, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of god in the face of jesus christ.

*Contexually this is the SAME GOD as the one above, " the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not".

but we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of god, and not of us.
we are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
always bearing about in the body the dying of the lord jesus, that the life also of jesus might be made manifest in our body.

for we which live are alway delivered unto death for jesus' sake, that the life also of jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
so then death worketh in us, but life in you.
we having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, i believed, and therefore have i spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
knowing that he which raised up the lord jesus shall raise up us also by jesus, and shall present us with you.
for all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of god.

*same God being spoken of, same people blinded.

Guess what? This is the same thing Paul mentioned in the book of Romans earlier:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And that came from something Christ spoke of:

Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Not Israel who was blinded. Not Israel because that report was the Gospel and it was hidden from them, 2Co_3:14 and 2Co_4:3-4

Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

They could not believe because God blinded them and hid the Gospel from them.

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

He blinded their eyes and hardened their heart. Why? So they could not see nor understand and be converted and healed by God.

Why? It wasn't time for that yet.

What John 12:40 says is the same thing that 2 Corinthians 4:4 says:

God "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

God "hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

1. "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not"
1. "hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart"

2. "lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ" "should shine unto them"
2. "they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted" nor healed.

Having your eyes "blinded" and your heart "hardened" is the same thing as having your "mind" blinded.

"converting and being healed" is the same thing as receiving "the light of the glorious gospel of Christ".

divaD
Nov 27th 2011, 04:13 PM
We are speaking of a certain blinding which causes people not to be able to accept Christ not the hatred of a person blinding them from loving a brother that did nothing to be hated.



Truth is not in a liar. Not related to this specific topic.




This is getting too far from the topic at hand. We have numerous passages that everyone agrees is God blinding people from accepting the truth of Christ. Then we have one single verse where a translator decided to use a lower case g on "god" and the verse is still about someone who is a "god" blinding people from accepting Christ. Can we really say both God and satan are doing the same exact thing to the same exact people? Of course not. It's either God doing it and not satan or satan doing it and not God.



You entirely missed my point then. I'm just trying to show that satan is behind a lot more stuff than you give him credit for. 2 Cor 4:4 is clearly meaning satan. In the Christian world, that's almost a unanimous agreement. Very few would conclude it's meaning God and not satan. And no one had to tell me that that's who it was referring to. I figured that out ages ago. If that verse had meant God, then it would have said God, and not the god of this world.

RogerW
Nov 28th 2011, 10:08 AM
My whole point with this is to show that satan too can blind eyes, yet you seem to think only God can and does. If a brother hates another brother, that's not God causing that to happen, satan and his ilk is behind it. It all goes back to the days when Cain went against Abel and slew him. satan was behind that, you can bet on it.

Hi David,

You may not realize it but this statement actually makes Satan equal with God. Isn't every man born to hate because he/she is born of their fallen father's nature? Of course Satan is the cause of man's fallen or natural human nature because he is the one who deceived man, and caused them to sin against God. So it really doesn't mean much to say Satan causes man's blindness, because in reality every human is born in the same spiritual blindness. Therefore God must open man's eyes for them to see the glorious gospel of salvation. Satan can only do what God permits. But it is in fact God alone, Who determines who will remain spiritually blind, and who will be given eyes to see and ears to hear, because God alone has all power and authority over this world/age and the world/age to come.

blessings,
RW

ewq1938
Nov 28th 2011, 08:02 PM
You entirely missed my point then. I'm just trying to show that satan is behind a lot more stuff than you give him credit for. 2 Cor 4:4 is clearly meaning satan. In the Christian world, that's almost a unanimous agreement. Very few would conclude it's meaning God and not satan. And no one had to tell me that that's who it was referring to. I figured that out ages ago. If that verse had meant God, then it would have said God, and not the god of this world.

Have you read the post just above this one yet?

divaD
Nov 30th 2011, 09:35 PM
Hi David,

You may not realize it but this statement actually makes Satan equal with God. Isn't every man born to hate because he/she is born of their fallen father's nature? Of course Satan is the cause of man's fallen or natural human nature because he is the one who deceived man, and caused them to sin against God. So it really doesn't mean much to say Satan causes man's blindness, because in reality every human is born in the same spiritual blindness. Therefore God must open man's eyes for them to see the glorious gospel of salvation. Satan can only do what God permits. But it is in fact God alone, Who determines who will remain spiritually blind, and who will be given eyes to see and ears to hear, because God alone has all power and authority over this world/age and the world/age to come.

blessings,
RW

RW, so do you then conclude that the god of this world is meaning God?

divaD
Nov 30th 2011, 09:38 PM
Have you read the post just above this one yet?


I'm just now getting around to. Since you wrote alot there, I think I'll copy and paste that post into Notepad or something, then ponder offline what you wrote. Then perhaps respond later on, meaning any time, today, tomorrow, or whenever.

RogerW
Dec 3rd 2011, 02:24 AM
RW, so do you then conclude that the god of this world is meaning God?

Indeed, the earth and all therein is the Lords to do with whatsoever He pleases. Therefore all the lost remaining in unbelief are blind and cannot comprehend the light of the glorious gospel of Christ. Unless God gives them eyes to see and ears to hear they will remain in darkness, blind and without Christ.

Ps*24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Da*4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

1Co*10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

ewq1938
Dec 3rd 2011, 02:36 AM
Roger, you are the first person I've met that came to that same conclusion. Glad I am not alone lol



Indeed, the earth and all therein is the Lords to do with whatsoever He pleases. Therefore all the lost remaining in unbelief are blind and cannot comprehend the light of the glorious gospel of Christ. Unless God gives them eyes to see and ears to hear they will remain in darkness, blind and without Christ.

Ps*24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Da*4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

1Co*10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

david
Dec 5th 2011, 11:57 PM
Indeed, the earth and all therein is the Lords to do with whatsoever He pleases. Therefore all the lost remaining in unbelief are blind and cannot comprehend the light of the glorious gospel of Christ. Unless God gives them eyes to see and ears to hear they will remain in darkness, blind and without Christ.

"In their case the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4 "

might be parallel to

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” John 12:40

so i agree.

ewq1938
Dec 6th 2011, 12:44 AM
"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4 "

might be parallel to

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” John 12:40

and then:

Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isaiah 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

And the OT original. God does the blinding.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God blinded them, not satan.

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

david
Dec 6th 2011, 12:53 AM
and then:

Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isaiah 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

And the OT original. God does the blinding.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God blinded them, not satan.

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Indeed. There is another passage that seems to say Jesus blinded Saul (physically blinded)
As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do." The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. Acts 9:3-8

ewq, who do you think the "he" is here? is it God or satan?
Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” 2 Samuel 24:1

ewq1938
Dec 6th 2011, 02:00 AM
Indeed. There is another passage that seems to say Jesus blinded Saul (physically blinded)
As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do." The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. Acts 9:3-8

ewq, who do you think the "he" is here? is it God or satan?




Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” 2 Samuel 24:1

God .

david
Dec 6th 2011, 02:49 AM
God .

Would that not contradict this verse though? "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. James 1:13 "

ewq1938
Dec 6th 2011, 02:56 AM
Would that not contradict this verse though? "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. James 1:13 "

No. It means something else than just tempting because God has tempted man before:

Gen_22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

david
Dec 6th 2011, 03:01 AM
No. It measn somehting else than just tempting because God has tempted man before:

Gen_22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

But if numbering Israel was evil, then why would God "tempt" David to number Israel and then punish him for it?

ewq1938
Dec 6th 2011, 03:05 AM
But if numbering Israel was evil, then why would God "tempt" David to number Israel and then punish him for it?

No one said "tempting" was evil, nor do I see this related to 2 Samuel 24:1.

david
Dec 6th 2011, 03:12 AM
No one said "tempting" was evil, nor do I see this related to 2 Samuel 24:1.

God: "do evil."
David: (does evil)
God: "choose your punishment: either famine, war, or pestilence."
David: "pestilence please."

It doesn't look like that to you?

ReigningKing
Dec 6th 2011, 03:21 AM
God: "do evil."

If God hates sin, why would He tell David to deliberately do evil?

Makes no sense whatsoever.

ewq1938
Dec 6th 2011, 04:14 AM
God: "do evil."
David: (does evil)
God: "choose your punishment: either famine, war, or pestilence."
David: "pestilence please."

It doesn't look like that to you?

I guess I am not following you on that...if you can present it differently maybe I'll get what you are after.

david
Dec 6th 2011, 05:01 AM
I guess I am not following you on that...if you can present it differently maybe I'll get what you are after.
doesn't the following basically say that the Lord caused David to do evil?

bold = God telling David to do evil
underline = david doing evil

Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army, who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people.” But Joab said to the king, “May the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times as many as they are, while the eyes of my lord the king still see it, but why does my lord the king delight in this thing?” But the king’s word prevailed against Joab and the commanders of the army. So Joab and the commanders of the army went out from the presence of the king to number the people of Israel. They crossed the Jordan and began from Aroer, and from the city that is in the middle of the valley, toward Gad and on to Jazer. Then they came to Gilead, and to Kadesh in the land of the Hittites; and they came to Dan, and from Dan they went around to Sidon, and came to the fortress of Tyre and to all the cities of the Hivites and Canaanites; and they went out to the Negeb of Judah at Beersheba. So when they had gone through all the land, they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to the king: in Israel there were 800,000 valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were 500,000. But David’s heart struck him after he had numbered the people. And David said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O LORD, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have done very foolishly.” And when David arose in the morning, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying, “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the LORD, Three things I offer you. Choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’ ” So Gad came to David and told him, and said to him, “Shall three years of famine come to you in your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days’ pestilence in your land? Now consider, and decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.” Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let us fall into the hand of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but let me not fall into the hand of man.” So the LORD sent a pestilence on Israel from the morning until the appointed time. And there died of the people from Dan to Beersheba 70,000 men. 2 Samuel 24:1-15

Also be aware that this passage is parallel to this one

Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.” But Joab said, “May the LORD add to his people a hundred times as many as they are! Are they not, my lord the king, all of them my lord’s servants? Why then should my lord require this? Why should it be a cause of guilt for Israel?” But the king’s word prevailed against Joab. So Joab departed and went throughout all Israel and came back to Jerusalem. And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. In all Israel there were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword, and in Judah 470,000 who drew the sword. But he did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, for the king’s command was abhorrent to Joab. But God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel. And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.” And the LORD spoke to Gad, David’s seer, saying, “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the LORD, Three things I offer you; choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’ ” So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Choose what you will: either three years of famine, or three months of devastation by your foes while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or else three days of the sword of the LORD, pestilence on the land, with the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.’ Now decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.” Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let me fall into the hand of the LORD, for his mercy is very great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man.” So the LORD sent a pestilence on Israel, and 70,000 men of Israel fell. 1 Chronicles 21:1-14

the first passage said "he" incited David to number Israel, whereas the second says that Satan incited David. That's why I'm questioning who "he" is because if I said it was God instead of Satan then it might contradict the second passage.

By the way I was agreeing with you not disagreeing about the God blinding people part.

ewq1938
Dec 6th 2011, 05:49 AM
doesn't the following basically say that the Lord caused David to do evil?

bold = God telling David to do evil
underline = david doing evil

Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army, who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people.” But Joab said to the king, “May the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times as many as they are, while the eyes of my lord the king still see it, but why does my lord the king delight in this thing?” But the king’s word prevailed against Joab and the commanders of the army. So Joab and the commanders of the army went out from the presence of the king to number the people of Israel. They crossed the Jordan and began from Aroer, and from the city that is in the middle of the valley, toward Gad and on to Jazer. Then they came to Gilead, and to Kadesh in the land of the Hittites; and they came to Dan, and from Dan they went around to Sidon, and came to the fortress of Tyre and to all the cities of the Hivites and Canaanites; and they went out to the Negeb of Judah at Beersheba. So when they had gone through all the land, they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to the king: in Israel there were 800,000 valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were 500,000. But David’s heart struck him after he had numbered the people. And David said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O LORD, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have done very foolishly.” And when David arose in the morning, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying, “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the LORD, Three things I offer you. Choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’ ” So Gad came to David and told him, and said to him, “Shall three years of famine come to you in your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days’ pestilence in your land? Now consider, and decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.” Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let us fall into the hand of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but let me not fall into the hand of man.” So the LORD sent a pestilence on Israel from the morning until the appointed time. And there died of the people from Dan to Beersheba 70,000 men. 2 Samuel 24:1-15

Also be aware that this passage is parallel to this one

Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.” But Joab said, “May the LORD add to his people a hundred times as many as they are! Are they not, my lord the king, all of them my lord’s servants? Why then should my lord require this? Why should it be a cause of guilt for Israel?” But the king’s word prevailed against Joab. So Joab departed and went throughout all Israel and came back to Jerusalem. And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. In all Israel there were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword, and in Judah 470,000 who drew the sword. But he did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, for the king’s command was abhorrent to Joab. But God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel. And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.” And the LORD spoke to Gad, David’s seer, saying, “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the LORD, Three things I offer you; choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’ ” So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Choose what you will: either three years of famine, or three months of devastation by your foes while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or else three days of the sword of the LORD, pestilence on the land, with the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.’ Now decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.” Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let me fall into the hand of the LORD, for his mercy is very great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man.” So the LORD sent a pestilence on Israel, and 70,000 men of Israel fell. 1 Chronicles 21:1-14

the first passage said "he" incited David to number Israel, whereas the second says that Satan incited David. That's why I'm questioning who "he" is because if I said it was God instead of Satan then it might contradict the second passage.

By the way I was agreeing with you not disagreeing about the God blinding people part.


I know.

This is like what occurred in Job. God allows satan to do certain things. God allowed satan to murder Job's family. The original he was still God, but God allowed satan to tempt David, and David sinned.

divaD
Dec 6th 2011, 07:23 PM
the first passage said "he" incited David to number Israel, whereas the second says that Satan incited David. That's why I'm questioning who "he" is because if I said it was God instead of Satan then it might contradict the second passage.

It's not that one passage would be contradicting another one. I would think to determine who the 'he' is in 2 Samuel 24, one would need to go to the account that has the more vivid details, or at least the details one account is lacking. The fact that we see satan in the picture in 1 Chronicles 21:1-14, I would think that explains the 'he' in the 2 Samuel 24 passage.


2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.


1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

So instead of thinking these contradict, why not use them to see the bigger picture?

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and satan moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Wouldn't this be correct now?

david
Dec 6th 2011, 07:35 PM
It's not that one passage would be contradicting another one. I would think to determine who the 'he' is in 2 Samuel 24, one would need to go to the account that has the more vivid details, or at least the details one account is lacking. The fact that we see satan in the picture in 1 Chronicles 21:1-14, I would think that explains the 'he' in the 2 Samuel 24 passage.


2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.


1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

So instead of thinking these contradict, why not use them to see the bigger picture?

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and satan moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Wouldn't this be correct now?

So you're saying that when the Lord is angry, he might give permission to Satan to tempt us to do evil?

divaD
Dec 6th 2011, 08:15 PM
So you're saying that when the Lord is angry, he might give permission to Satan to tempt us to do evil?



I think you're just looking at it wrong. The LORD had nothing to do with provoking David to number Israel. Why do you think He had something to do with that? And if He did, why then punish David for something He put satan up to? It would be like when Eve was deceived by the serpent in the garden. If that was God's idea, and that He put
the serpent up to this, then why get angry with him, curse him, then indicate you're going to destroy him?

david
Dec 6th 2011, 08:24 PM
I think you're just looking at it wrong. The LORD had nothing to do with provoking David to number Israel. Why do you think He had something to do with that? And if He did, why then punish David for something He put satan up to? It would be like when Eve was deceived by the serpent in the garden. If that was God's idea, and that He put
the serpent up to this, then why get angry with him, curse him, then indicate you're going to destroy him?

I thought about that too, but think about it from a layman's perspective. If anyone just opened the bible to that page and read it, wouldn't 95% of them read it as the Lord having something to do with provoking David to number israel? I mean from context (and also from the way the Bible is written as a whole) it just seems that way.