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View Full Version : Israel, Turkey, Psalm 83 war, Ezekiel 38-39?-moved from BNews



saltyfun
Nov 28th 2011, 02:59 PM
should we be deeply concerned that the United States may unwittingly be lending its power to the service of those who desire to bring about the destruction of Israel and possibly our nation? This is how I truly feel. I feel we may make the move that may possibly ignite more controversy over Israel's safety than what could be foreseen. The United States has a major role now in trying to mend relations between Israel and Turkey. But I suspect that Turkey and its allies are poker-faced about something....efforts to undermine Israel, to annihilate Israel, over the years took numerous forms. Military, terrorism, economic strangulation through the Arab boycott, and all of these have failed. Israel was able to ultimately defeat all the militaries and make it clear that conventional war is not going to be the way to defeat Israel. It has been able to contain terrorism to the point that the Israeli public is no longer terrorized and even in terms of economic strangulation, Israel has been able to make itself into an island. However, many prophetic theorists are leaning towards the Psalm 83 war which will then lend a hand for Ezekiel's to be fullfilled. Any thoughts?

quiet dove
Nov 28th 2011, 03:23 PM
Hi salty, not sure I gave you good advice, might should have gone in ETC. I think if we want to get into Psalm 83 and Ezekiel, ETC is the better option for some discussion. Going to move it over there.

sorry, I get confused sometimes....LOL

John 8:32
Nov 28th 2011, 04:58 PM
First of all, to understand prophecy, one must understand who Israel is, who Judah is and that there is a difference. Psa 83 speaks of an end-time alliance that will not be successful, whereas Ezek 38 and 39 occur after Christs return.

quiet dove
Nov 28th 2011, 05:00 PM
First of all, to understand prophecy, one must understand who Israel is, who Judah is and that there is a difference. Psa 83 speaks of an end-time alliance that will not be successful, whereas Ezek 38 and 39 occur after Christs return.


I agree regarding Psalm83, not so sure about Ezekiel though....

DurbanDude
Nov 28th 2011, 09:49 PM
should we be deeply concerned that the United States may unwittingly be lending its power to the service of those who desire to bring about the destruction of Israel and possibly our nation? This is how I truly feel. I feel we may make the move that may possibly ignite more controversy over Israel's safety than what could be foreseen. The United States has a major role now in trying to mend relations between Israel and Turkey. But I suspect that Turkey and its allies are poker-faced about something....efforts to undermine Israel, to annihilate Israel, over the years took numerous forms. Military, terrorism, economic strangulation through the Arab boycott, and all of these have failed. Israel was able to ultimately defeat all the militaries and make it clear that conventional war is not going to be the way to defeat Israel. It has been able to contain terrorism to the point that the Israeli public is no longer terrorized and even in terms of economic strangulation, Israel has been able to make itself into an island. However, many prophetic theorists are leaning towards the Psalm 83 war which will then lend a hand for Ezekiel's to be fullfilled. Any thoughts?


My thoughts are that the USA and Europe are stabilising the entire Middle East with Turkey as their ally. This will benefit Israel , and this is the main purpose, to benefit Israel. Israel will become the leading nation of the area, along with Turkey. Despite the current anti-Israel rhetoric of the US and Turkey leadership, this is just posing so that the world will not realise that Israel is soon to become a superstate.

Yes Turkey will rebel against Israel one day at Armageddon, but this is absolutely necessary. Every time Israel was continuing in sin, God sent an army of judgment against them. This occurred with the Assyrians, with the Babylonians, with the Romans, and in the future, with the Turks (Gog). The Jews however are predicted to repent this time, before they are completely conquered, and they will turn to Jesus who will intervene in the war, at the second coming.

So don't worry about Israel, the USA is helping to create a Middle Eastern superstate. The USA and the American electorate are helping the beast to arise from the dark pit, Israel is arising from being in a dark place, scattered around the world, into a regathered nation which is becoming the leader of a new superstate. I support the Jews having a place of safety, their own country, but I DO NOT support them taking over the world before the timing of their Messiah. Both Joel 2 and Ezekiel 39 indicate Israel's sinful state when the northern army of Gog attacks Israel.

ddo2013
Mar 24th 2013, 05:05 PM
First of all, to understand prophecy, one must understand who Israel is, who Judah is and that there is a difference. Psa 83 speaks of an end-time alliance that will not be successful, whereas Ezek 38 and 39 occur after Christs return.

You are indeed mistaken. Ezekiel 38 and 39 occur before tribulation. It is Armageddon that Christ interrupts and puts an end to when He comes in the Revelation. The final battle at the end of history is the 2nd battle of Gog/Magog and will come to naught. But this is the 2nd confrontation, not the first as you suggest-Revelation 19

dunedain
Mar 24th 2013, 05:45 PM
should we be deeply concerned that the United States may unwittingly be lending its power to the service of those who desire to bring about the destruction of Israel and possibly our nation? This is how I truly feel. I feel we may make the move that may possibly ignite more controversy over Israel's safety than what could be foreseen. The United States has a major role now in trying to mend relations between Israel and Turkey. But I suspect that Turkey and its allies are poker-faced about something....efforts to undermine Israel, to annihilate Israel, over the years took numerous forms. Military, terrorism, economic strangulation through the Arab boycott, and all of these have failed. Israel was able to ultimately defeat all the militaries and make it clear that conventional war is not going to be the way to defeat Israel. It has been able to contain terrorism to the point that the Israeli public is no longer terrorized and even in terms of economic strangulation, Israel has been able to make itself into an island. However, many prophetic theorists are leaning towards the Psalm 83 war which will then lend a hand for Ezekiel's to be fullfilled. Any thoughts?

Everything that happens to "the nations" is the judgment against the nations and should be of no concern to Christians whatsoever. The Christians are not counted as "the nations" or as "of this world" therefore the judgments of this world through the rulers of the world are for the world.

Also be sure to understand all prophetic instances of "Israel" as meaning "new covenant Israel" and not "old covenant Israel"; old covenant Israel is now counted among the nations and is no longer a "peculiar people" but this has passed to the new covenant Israel. So the Psalm refering to "Israel" is refering to "new covenant Israel" and those who understand it as "old covenant Israel" will be deceived into confusion- i.e. Babel.

Vakeros
Mar 24th 2013, 09:50 PM
Everything that happens to "the nations" is the judgment against the nations and should be of no concern to Christians whatsoever. The Christians are not counted as "the nations" or as "of this world" therefore the judgments of this world through the rulers of the world are for the world.
Also be sure to understand all prophetic instances of "Israel" as meaning "new covenant Israel" and not "old covenant Israel"; old covenant Israel is now counted among the nations and is no longer a "peculiar people" but this has passed to the new covenant Israel. So the Psalm refering to "Israel" is refering to "new covenant Israel" and those who understand it as "old covenant Israel" will be deceived into confusion- i.e. Babel.
I have to disagree with you there as we need to remember that we are grafted into Israel - the cultivated Olive tree and NOT the other way around. Not all of Israel are Israel is true. However for the sake of their forefathers God is true to His promises. Remember He said that if you love me then I will love ad your descendants to the 1,000th generation. Well we haven't reached that time yet and God still loves Israel. Romans 11 makes it clear along with many other places that the nation of Israel is still to have a part in prophecy. Jerusalem as a place too.

dunedain
Mar 25th 2013, 05:04 PM
I have to disagree with you there as we need to remember that we are grafted into Israel - the cultivated Olive tree and NOT the other way around.

Okay but it's important to understand the process here so we can understand the people being called "Israel" or "the promised seed" otherwise there will be confusion as to who the name "Israel" actually applies to in prophecy. First there were only the nations just as first there was only the man, Adam. Then the Lord by Moses "took out" of the nations a people, just as the woman was taken out of the man- to be a helper to the man. So now we have "the man" or "the nations" and we have "the woman" or "Israel". Let's say that Israel are 1000 people (they are more but for sake of illustration allow me a small simple number).

Okay now at the "time of the end" (that is, of the old covenant) Jesus came to that 1000 people and said "time has come for fulfillment of the old covenant" and Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom of the new covenant. Now, of the 1000 people called Israel, Jesus then "took out" of them 100 people. So now we have 900 "unbelievers" and 100 "believers".

Now, the 900 "unbelieving branches" we "broken off" of the olive tree of Israel, and the 100 "believing branches" remained intact. So now who is Israel? It is the olive tree with 100 branches. Now then the Gentiles who received the word are also grafted onto the olive tree of Israel. You now have the totality of new covenant Israel, which is the promised seed through which the promises come:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So when we see the name Israel (or any similitude) being spoken of in the new covenant, it is speaking new covenant Israel, faithful Israel, beleiving Israel. It can't be the 900 broken off branches because they are clearly not even part of the olive tree anymore. Jesus pruned the olive tree of Israel and Israel only has believing branches.


However for the sake of their forefathers God is true to His promises.

Yes, and the promised seed is new covenant Israel- the 100 branches, not old covenant Israel and her 900 broken-off unbelieving branches.


Remember He said that if you love me then I will love ad your descendants to the 1,000th generation.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Okay so 900 hating branches and 100 loving branches. Which is the Israel of promise?


Well we haven't reached that time yet and God still loves Israel.

God certainly does love Israel. I believe we'll find in the end that it isan't about what words God uses, but the way we understand the words He is using. Words can be tricky things; they can be misused, redefined, ill-interpreted, etc. But the Lord loves Israel this is true: the question being - who is He refering to when He says "Israel" in the new covenant. Answer to yourself who is in the new covenant "contract" and you'll answer to yourself who is the new covenant party-of-the-aforementioned-contractual-obligation "Israel"


Romans 11 makes it clear along with many other places that the nation of Israel is still to have a part in prophecy. Jerusalem as a place too.

It's not the words being used that is important, it is how we under those words. Reading the scripture will show there are two Israels and two Jerusalems; old and new; earthly and heavenly. The question is, which one do we understand new covenant prophecy as indicating? The new or the old?

If we are to understand it as the old Israel, then that little nation in the Middle East is important in new covenant prophecy of Israel.

But if by some off-chance we are to understand it as the new Israel, then that little nation in the Middle East is irrelevant to new covenant prophecy of Israel- however, it would certainly cause those understanding new covenant prophecy of Israel as indicating old Israel to become very confused.

Vakeros
Mar 25th 2013, 05:11 PM
Thank you for the above in its clarity. Where I find myself disagreeing with you is that Israel in prophecy always refers to believers. Romans 11 is a chapter that talks about Israel and it is where it talks about branches being broken off etc, however every use of Israel in that passage is about the nation and NOT about believers. This is very clear from context. Therefore when we read about Israel in prophecy we can't take a blanket approach, but must read each occasion in context. Some if not most I have come to the conclusion of are speaking of the nation of Israel, though on some occasions they are both talking about the nation and at the same time talking about believers. Rev 7 and Rev 14 being two examples.

retro
Mar 26th 2013, 04:43 AM
Well let's have a look at the crowd that currently inhabit the land of Israel

Ezekiel 36.5
I speak against the people of Edom who took my land for themselves with joy and with hate in their hearts.

Reading Ezekiel 35-39

The Edominates will be removed and replaced by Jacob


Ezekiel 38.8
The people in the land will have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel .

This is referring to dispersed Israel the tribes sifted among the nations finally gathered by Yahweh see Ezekiel 37

Furthermore in the word of Jesus

I came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel Matt 15.24

Those that are grafted on are the wild dispersed Israel.

All the promises are made to the literal descendants of Abraham and Sarah


Read the free .pdf the exclusiveness of Israel-Arnold Kennedy

TheDivineWatermark
Mar 26th 2013, 07:00 AM
Thank you for the above in its clarity. Where I find myself disagreeing with you is that Israel in prophecy always refers to believers. Romans 11 is a chapter that talks about Israel and it is where it talks about branches being broken off etc, however every use of Israel in that passage is about the nation and NOT about believers. This is very clear from context. Therefore when we read about Israel in prophecy we can't take a blanket approach, but must read each occasion in context. Some if not most I have come to the conclusion of are speaking of the nation of Israel, though on some occasions they are both talking about the nation and at the same time talking about believers. Rev 7 and Rev 14 being two examples.

I agree. In all of its 75 NT usages, "Israel" means "Israel" (sometimes, of those of national Israel who believed). :thumbsup:

dunedain
Mar 26th 2013, 08:05 PM
Thank you for the above in its clarity. Where I find myself disagreeing with you is that Israel in prophecy always refers to believers. Romans 11 is a chapter that talks about Israel and it is where it talks about branches being broken off etc, however every use of Israel in that passage is about the nation and NOT about believers. This is very clear from context. Therefore when we read about Israel in prophecy we can't take a blanket approach, but must read each occasion in context. Some if not most I have come to the conclusion of are speaking of the nation of Israel, though on some occasions they are both talking about the nation and at the same time talking about believers. Rev 7 and Rev 14 being two examples.

Okay you're misunderstanding my words: I'm not meaning to say that every instance of the word "Israel" refers to "believers"- but that there is an "old covenant Israel" and there is a "new covenant Israel" and both are called Israel in the scripture- Paul does it right there in the "not all Israel of Israel" verse. What I am meaning is that in new covenant prophecy, then the word "Israel" refers to the new covenant Israel, it simply must be the case.

Under the new covenant, only believing Israelites are counted as Israel, the promised seed; old covenant branches are broken off and no longer count as part of the olive tree. So you simply cannot have new covenant prophecy calling old covenant Israel "Israel" because through the proverbial lens of the new covenant they are not Israel, so you would in effect have a new covenant that makes no sense and defies its own criteria for the covenant relationship with God.

As an example you mention Rev 7 and 14. Now, these sealed remnant people are all new covenant Israel, all believers clearly. Then by correlating the scripture, John is telling us that all of the events that occured to old covenant Israel in the old testament will replay themselves under the new covenant in a spiritual way instead of a carnal way- such as how beginning of the old covenant with a deliverance from bondage by Moses (which is prophecy of Christ, as is everything in the scripture) replays at the beginning of the new covenant with a deliverance from bondage; only the first is carnal (carnal/physical/earthly exodus/deliverance), the last is spiritual (a spiritual deliverance from spiritual bondage).

So then as old covenant Israel was taken out of Egypt; new covenant Israel was taken out of spiritual Egypt (which is "Jerusalem which now is"; which is allegory of Hagar the Egyptian Gal 4:25)- or that is to say, new covenant Israel was taken out of old covenant Israel, and old covenant Israel was "cut off from the name of Israel"- so as far as prophecy is concerned, which must now be new covenant prophecy as that is the covenant in effect, Israel has to be new covenant Israel; otherwise the new covenant is using its terms incorrectly and God doesn't know how to communicate properly.

keras
Apr 5th 2013, 07:29 AM
Vakeros is correct, in that scripture sometimes talks about Israel being a nation and then the believers. Here are some verses to help explain who are Israel;
Romans 9:24-26 We are those vessels of mercy, called from among Jews and Gentiles alike. Those who were not My people, I will call My people - they will be called 'Children of God'.
Psalm 69:36 Those who serve the Lord and love His Name will inherit the holy Land.
Malachi 3:16-17 Those who respected the Lord met together and the Lord listened. Their names were written in the Book of life, they will be Mine, I will spare and deliver them on the appointed Day.
Isaiah 61:36 A righteous people planted in the Lord's holy Land, to display His glory.
There are many more scriptures that say it will be a new righteous Israel that will return to the Land after the great Day of the Lord's wrath that will clear and cleanse all of that area promised to Abraham. It will be the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, Pray to be accounted worthy, to pass under the Rod of judgement. Ezekiel 20:34-38

Aijalon
Apr 8th 2013, 09:57 PM
should we be deeply concerned that the United States may unwittingly be lending its power to the service of those who desire to bring about the destruction of Israel and possibly our nation? This is how I truly feel. I feel we may make the move that may possibly ignite more controversy over Israel's safety than what could be foreseen. The United States has a major role now in trying to mend relations between Israel and Turkey. But I suspect that Turkey and its allies are poker-faced about something....efforts to undermine Israel, to annihilate Israel, over the years took numerous forms. Military, terrorism, economic strangulation through the Arab boycott, and all of these have failed. Israel was able to ultimately defeat all the militaries and make it clear that conventional war is not going to be the way to defeat Israel. It has been able to contain terrorism to the point that the Israeli public is no longer terrorized and even in terms of economic strangulation, Israel has been able to make itself into an island. However, many prophetic theorists are leaning towards the Psalm 83 war which will then lend a hand for Ezekiel's to be fullfilled. Any thoughts?
Since Turkey is currently pointing missiles at Syria, and fully supporting NATO action, I feel that militarily there is no way Turkey stands against Israel. But if so, this would be a dramatic betrayal.

The Arab Spring nations are the ones you question, and rightly so. Why is the US supporting this? This is resulting in further hatred of Israel, further economic instability, and further persecution of Christians. In fact we just sent some more F16's to Egypt to be run by the Muslim Brotherhood.

If you take any stock in Zionist conspiracies, the idea here would be that under the UN>>NATO>>EURO>>British>>US backed Isreali Zionists are manipulating the situation so that they have an excuse to entirely wipe out their enemies.

This is what I would say reflects the set up to a future war as described by Daniel 11:40-45 where the King of the South (Egypt & allies) push-gainst or terrorize the north which is Greece/Europe (Javan) and possibly includes Turkey.

The previous verses of 11:36-39 reflect the start of the antichrists reign of arrogance through the expression of his kingdom in the West. The last verse, 39, reflects the manner in which the Western powers divided up the third world and Middle East for gain throughout the Colonial and Industrial Eras, particularly after WWII through the French Syrian mandate and British Palestinian mandate. (it is well worth looking these up).

I think it is helpful to look at the entire Middle East as a series of puppet states, all under the thumb of western powers. Only Syria and Iran are left blocking Western military Hagemony. The fall of Syria would signal a completely surrounded Iran and I think precipitate a full scale Middle East war, with our good UN buddies Russia and China jumping in the pool on the Iranian team.

China and Russia are the forces of the North and East that will trouble the King of the North after his completely overwhealming invastion of the Middle East and Israel. The king of the North's invasion might already have taken place, as this is demonstrated by the very decisive naval, air, and ground force victories of the Western powers, including Israel over the surrounding nations. Notable wars are Israel's two Arab wars in 1948 and 1967 and the US's two wars in Iraq in 1991 and 2003.

Remember Shock and Awe 2003?

How about the more recent NATO action in Lybia, including what many call an illegally waged war against Lybia without Congressional approval.

What do you think our carrier groups are doing right now in the Persian Gulf? fishing? :P

Aijalon
Apr 8th 2013, 10:05 PM
As to Ez 38 and 39, what is very fun to consider is that the Temple Institute Orthodoxy in Jerusalem considered George W. Bush to be the Prince of Meshech and Tubal in 2008, labeling him the "Leader of the West".

This deserves a completely separate thread though....

Ez 38/39 are two different Battles, read them through slowly and you'll see that one of them (Ch 39) matches the first battle of Revelation (Armageddon). In 39 Gog comes against "the mountains of Israel" and the plagues and punishments upon Gog's armies are just like Revelation's battle of Armageddon and the other references to the Day of the Lord.

In 38 Gog comes against unwalled villiages, and people living in safety. This will be after Christ creates peace on earth and at the end of the millenium Satan is unleashed and his God of war - Gog - will bring the natiosn against true Israel.

The Bible often tells the finality of the issue up front. Which in this case is the final end of Gog at the end of the millenium.

Carefully look at the differnces in Ch 38 and 39. You'll see.

keras
Apr 10th 2013, 08:16 PM
I completely disagree that Ezekiel 38/39 are after the Return of Jesus. Careful reading, as you say; in a modern, unbiased translation, proves that it describes one attack by a Northern confederation onto ' a land recently restored from ruin, whose people have been gathered from the nations'. Eze 38:8 Nothing in those chapters matches with the actual descriptions of His Return. The Gog/Magog battle occurs after the next event, that is the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath, which is the great, many prophesied fire judgement and the fulfilment of Psalm 83. Then the true, righteous Israelites gather and live in all of the holy Land. The so called battle of Gog/Magog is ' in order to display My glory among the nations and from that time the Israelites will know that I am the Lord their God'. Ezekiel 39:21-22
The reference again in Rev. 20:8, simply uses Gog as a type of a vast army.

Aijalon
Apr 11th 2013, 02:16 AM
would like to hear a few thoughts on post 15 as well.... :2cents:

keras
Apr 12th 2013, 09:41 PM
Yes Aijalon, you say how 'all are preparing for war', but Ezekiel 7:14 also says that and he goes on to say: but no one goes to war, for their turmoil has called forth My wrath. This prophecy is in the context of end times, note Ezekiel 7:7 Doom is coming upon you, dweller in the land, [that is: ALL the holy Land] the Day is near- a Day of panic and not rejoicing. So the many prophesied great Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath will happen and virtually all the Middle East will be wiped out. Ezekiel 30:2-5, Isaiah 17:1, Amos 1:3-15
How the Lord will carry out this sudden and shocking punishment, is told to us in Isaiah 30:26, it will be a massive sunstrike. Malachi 4:1

Aijalon
Apr 18th 2013, 02:14 AM
I disagree about chapter 7. Ez 7 is not about the end times, none of the verses point to a distant future, they point to an ending of the land, just as the chapter before - ch 6.

14 They have blown with a trumpet to prepare the whole, And none is going to battle, For My wrath [is] unto all its multitude.
15 The sword [is] without, And the pestilence and the famine within, He who is in a field by sword dieth, And he who is in a city, Famine and pestilence devour him.
These verses say that Israel will attempt to fight, but will not even go out to battle. This is reflected by the domination of the Babylonians who laid seige and Israel could not go to battle. They remained in the cities (the pestilence within)

Also the last verse of the chapter shows that God is using this as an occasion to destroy his people, not liberate them, but the end times will be a time when GOd fights for his people and liberates them. Verse 27 speaks of judgement against an unjust people.

27 The king doth become a mourner, And a prince putteth on desolation, And the hands of the people of the land are troubled, From their own way I deal with them, And with their own judgments I judge them, And they have known that I [am] Jehovah!'

The idea of Chapter 7 as the end times breaks the continuity of the early part of the book, which was all about the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians. Chapter 8 shows the evidence God has against the people of Israel and their sin.

I can't discount the possibility that all the early chapters are tied to the end times, but they are all tied together. So where do the end times chapters start and end?