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AngelNSC
Dec 3rd 2011, 01:38 AM
:hmm:I was just wondering what others thoughts were on "life after death", what does the Bible say happens to a believer when we die? Does our Spirit go to heaven immediately? or do we go to "sleep" until God returns? I get confused when I read the Bible concerning this...it says the "dead no nothing" and then it says "the believers in Christ will rise first" (when God comes back)...does anyone else get confused when reading the Bible?? Thank you for your answers in advance!:confused

david
Dec 3rd 2011, 01:54 AM
:hmm:I was just wondering what others thoughts were on "life after death", what does the Bible say happens to a believer when we die? Does our Spirit go to heaven immediately? or do we go to "sleep" until God returns? I get confused when I read the Bible concerning this...it says the "dead no nothing" and then it says "the believers in Christ will rise first" (when God comes back)...does anyone else get confused when reading the Bible?? Thank you for your answers in advance!:confused

According to the Bible, Abraham (who is long dead) went to Hades (which means grave) after he died (Luke 16:23).

Revelation 6:9-10 says "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'" meaning that the souls of the dead go to "under the altar" after they die. In figure, the altar is in the outer court of the tabernacle and the temple, and the outer court signifies the earth. Hence, the area underneath the altar is the region underneath the earth, where the souls of the dead saints are. Since Hades is underneath the earth (matt 12:40 + Acts 2:27) this means we will be in Hades for a while until the end of the age comes. Yet apparently we can still cry out to God there (Revelation 6:10).

Indueseason
Dec 3rd 2011, 04:21 PM
:hmm:I was just wondering what others thoughts were on "life after death", what does the Bible say happens to a believer when we die? Does our Spirit go to heaven immediately? or do we go to "sleep" until God returns? I get confused when I read the Bible concerning this...it says the "dead no nothing" and then it says "the believers in Christ will rise first" (when God comes back)...does anyone else get confused when reading the Bible?? Thank you for your answers in advance!:confused

Be prepared to get even more confused :) I used to believe we went straight to heaven, then I spent a long time believing that we went Abrahams bosom. I now see things from a different perspective/viewpoint and I'm back to believing we go straight to heaven! :lol:

blessings to you :hug:

ewq1938
Dec 3rd 2011, 08:11 PM
Revelation 6:9-10 says "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'" meaning that the souls of the dead go to "under the altar" after they die.

That only shows the souls of the martyred there, not every soul of the dead.

ewq1938
Dec 3rd 2011, 08:12 PM
Be prepared to get even more confused :) I used to believe we went straight to heaven, then I spent a long time believing that we went Abrahams bosom. I now see things from a different perspective/viewpoint and I'm back to believing we go straight to heaven! :lol:

blessings to you :hug:

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Butch5
Dec 4th 2011, 01:45 AM
:hmm:I was just wondering what others thoughts were on "life after death", what does the Bible say happens to a believer when we die? Does our Spirit go to heaven immediately? or do we go to "sleep" until God returns? I get confused when I read the Bible concerning this...it says the "dead no nothing" and then it says "the believers in Christ will rise first" (when God comes back)...does anyone else get confused when reading the Bible?? Thank you for your answers in advance!:confused

It would seem the straight to heaven idea doesn't work simply because that would mean people go to heaven before the judgment. It was the teaching of the earliest Christians that the souls of the dead went to Abraham's bosom just as Jesus said. It was also taught that they remained there until the judgment after which they would go to the place determined for them in the judgment.

nzyr
Dec 4th 2011, 02:40 AM
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. (Philippians 1:23-24)

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43)

otis lilly
Dec 4th 2011, 02:46 AM
one place i know for your answer is
matthew 20
about the helpers in the vineyard , being like the kingdom of heaven
the last will be first to be paid AKA go to heaven

divaD
Dec 4th 2011, 02:33 PM
It would seem the straight to heaven idea doesn't work simply because that would mean people go to heaven before the judgment. It was the teaching of the earliest Christians that the souls of the dead went to Abraham's bosom just as Jesus said. It was also taught that they remained there until the judgment after which they would go to the place determined for them in the judgment.



What does one do with a passage like the following?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The question is, not they came out of the graves. but where did they go after having appeared to many? It clearly says they which slept, they arose. Where else have we seen something similar?


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I would think these are meaning those that have since died after Matthew 27:52-53 was fulfilled. What's it say about these which are asleep and rise first in 1 Thessalonians 4?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It says...and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The point then is, since Matthew 27:52 -53 also tells us that dead saints raised bodily out of the graves, then why would they not now forever be with the Lord, since that's what happens at the 2nd coming? Surely those bodies in Matthew 27:52-53 didn't return back into their graves after having appeared to many, did they? If so, then what was the point to begin with, since there really is not much focus on this event? We see some of the apostles in Acts referring to Christ's physical resurrection, but they never seem to bring up these in Matthew 27:52-53 as well.

fewarechosen
Dec 4th 2011, 03:13 PM
You first must decide what death is .

Did you ever hear Christ say let the dead bury thier dead.

Christ spoke of people who were walking around here on earth as "dead" do you think he knows what a dead person is ?

so now some would suppose that being born in flesh as being alive.
others might suppose that you are never alive until the Holy Spirit enters you

many see Christ say let the dead bury their dead and sorta blow it off, but if Christ points to someone who is walking around and tells you they are dead, then you know that is what dead is


the flesh is not life, the spirit is life

what do you think God says life is ? do you think he thinks your alive when your here in flesh ? or does he think youre alive when you have the holy spirit ?

fewarechosen
Dec 4th 2011, 04:06 PM
Let me add this as well

I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

so I would ask is it even possible to die after you liveth and believeth in Christ ? now remember we are trying to figure out what it really means to be alive and to be dead.

so really ponder this from all sides, do you believe that ? lets say I liveth and believeth in him. would I be safe to say - I shall never die. Think about that when you are defining death.

just because we live in a fleshy world and have termed us dying in the flesh, death - dont think God uses same definition that we do.

you can be bouncing around having a good ole time here on earth but you can be dead as a doornail at the same time.

So when I ponder it I know the flesh will fall off me or do whatever it has to do but i know that has nothing to do with me dying.

btw when adam and eve were in the garden they were alive, they were told if they ate from the fruit of the tree for in that day they would die. also remember christ saying let the dead bury their dead - see a reason why he might call them dead ?

so when you start pondering life and death think about it from Gods perspective not what we call life and death.

Gen_2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

rom826
Dec 5th 2011, 06:46 AM
It would seem the straight to heaven idea doesn't work simply because that would mean people go to heaven before the judgment. It was the teaching of the earliest Christians that the souls of the dead went to Abraham's bosom just as Jesus said. It was also taught that they remained there until the judgment after which they would go to the place determined for them in the judgment.

So what does that mean - "abraham's bosom"?

John 8:32
Dec 5th 2011, 01:45 PM
Be prepared to get even more confused :) I used to believe we went straight to heaven, then I spent a long time believing that we went Abrahams bosom. I now see things from a different perspective/viewpoint and I'm back to believing we go straight to heaven! :lol:

blessings to you :hug:

Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The reward of the saved is here on earth. Christ comes back here, we do no0t go there.

John 8:32
Dec 5th 2011, 01:48 PM
What does one do with a passage like the following?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The question is, not they came out of the graves. but where did they go after having appeared to many? It clearly says they which slept, they arose. Where else have we seen something similar?


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I would think these are meaning those that have since died after Matthew 27:52-53 was fulfilled. What's it say about these which are asleep and rise first in 1 Thessalonians 4?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It says...and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The point then is, since Matthew 27:52 -53 also tells us that dead saints raised bodily out of the graves, then why would they not now forever be with the Lord, since that's what happens at the 2nd coming? Surely those bodies in Matthew 27:52-53 didn't return back into their graves after having appeared to many, did they? If so, then what was the point to begin with, since there really is not much focus on this event? We see some of the apostles in Acts referring to Christ's physical resurrection, but they never seem to bring up these in Matthew 27:52-53 as well.

Every man in his own order...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

No one is resurrected from the grave to life until the return of Christ, these saints that were resurrected at the time of His death were human and died again.

david
Dec 5th 2011, 09:10 PM
According to the Bible, Abraham (who is long dead) went to Hades (which means grave) after he died (Luke 16:23).

Need to revise this. It does seem odd that Lazarus would be "carried off" to Abraham's bosom whereas the rich man was "buried." Why would Lazarus need to be "carried off" by angels to be buried? Being carried off seems to imply going upward, instead of downward. Second, there's a "chasm" between Abraham's place and the rich man's place that seems to divide the two places. Thirdly, the difference in position between where the rich man was and where Abraham was was "far off." These make me change my mind about us believers going downward instead of upward.

"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'" Luke 16:19-26

fewarechosen
Dec 5th 2011, 10:31 PM
Need to revise this. It does seem odd that Lazarus would be "carried off" to Abraham's bosom whereas the rich man was "buried." Why would Lazarus need to be "carried off" by angels to be buried? Being carried off seems to imply going upward, instead of downward. Second, there's a "chasm" between Abraham's place and the rich man's place that seems to divide the two places. Thirdly, the difference in position between where the rich man was and where Abraham was was "far off." These make me change my mind about us believers going downward instead of upward.

"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'" Luke 16:19-26

Do you recal genises ? this may be of use

the ones on bottom look up and there is a gulf in between

Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Butch5
Dec 7th 2011, 05:47 PM
So what does that mean - "abraham's bosom"?

Hi Rom,

It was taught that there were two locations in Hades. One was Abraham's bosom where the righteous went and there was the place of torment.

Butch5
Dec 7th 2011, 06:11 PM
What does one do with a passage like the following?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The question is, not they came out of the graves. but where did they go after having appeared to many? It clearly says they which slept, they arose. Where else have we seen something similar?


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I would think these are meaning those that have since died after Matthew 27:52-53 was fulfilled. What's it say about these which are asleep and rise first in 1 Thessalonians 4?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It says...and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The point then is, since Matthew 27:52 -53 also tells us that dead saints raised bodily out of the graves, then why would they not now forever be with the Lord, since that's what happens at the 2nd coming? Surely those bodies in Matthew 27:52-53 didn't return back into their graves after having appeared to many, did they? If so, then what was the point to begin with, since there really is not much focus on this event? We see some of the apostles in Acts referring to Christ's physical resurrection, but they never seem to bring up these in Matthew 27:52-53 as well.

Hi divaD,

It would seem to me that those who rose in Mathew 27 did in fact die again. There's no mention of those in Mat. 27 rising to meet the Lord in the air (as Paul says). It simply says they went into the city and were seen by many. Mathew also says that they came out of their graves, he makes no mention of resurrection. While this does appear to be a resurrection it seems strange that Mathew makes no mention of "The Resurrection" in relation to this event. We also know that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, it doesn't appear this was "The Resurrection" that a righteous Lazarus would recieve after the judgment.

Another point is that Paul said those who sleep in Christ "will," future tense, rise. If those in Mathew rose to heaven then they did so before the "Return" of Christ which is when Paul said the dead in Christ would rise. I guess the question would be, if those who died between Christ's death and Paul's writing to the Thessalonians must await Christ's return before they rise and those who were alive at Paul's writing also had to wait for Christ's return, why would think those OT saints somehow went on ahead of everyone else? Paul said in Hebrews, speaking of the OT saints,


Hebrews 11:40(KJV)
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So, it would appear that whatever one believes happens, happen at one time to all believers. I think that would eliminate the idea that some go to heaven immediately upon death.



In addition to that I find no Scripture that tells us that we go to heaven when we die. I find this rather remarkable if Heaven is the eternal destiny of the saints. It seems that this would be a point that would be pointed out by both Jesus and the apostles. Yet, Paul says the Christians hope or Anchor of the Soul is the promises made to Abraham.

John 8:32
Dec 7th 2011, 06:27 PM
Need to revise this. It does seem odd that Lazarus would be "carried off" to Abraham's bosom whereas the rich man was "buried." Why would Lazarus need to be "carried off" by angels to be buried? Being carried off seems to imply going upward, instead of downward. Second, there's a "chasm" between Abraham's place and the rich man's place that seems to divide the two places. Thirdly, the difference in position between where the rich man was and where Abraham was was "far off." These make me change my mind about us believers going downward instead of upward.

"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'" Luke 16:19-26

I beat this one to within an inch of it's life here...

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/231565-Lazarus-and-the-Rich-man/page2

Post #18

percho
Dec 7th 2011, 10:39 PM
Hi Rom,

It was taught that there were two locations in Hades. One was Abraham's bosom where the righteous went and there was the place of torment.

Did it have a name?

percho
Dec 7th 2011, 11:00 PM
Concerning man I do not believe the word of God speaks of any kind of life after death sans resurrection or instant change to immorality at the appearing of Christ.

Peter said, David as a prophet of God speaking of the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades.
Paul said, For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

Well is he had not been raised where would his soul still have been? Dead in Hades. Just as Peter said David was on that day of Pentecost. Both dead and buried, soul and body.

ewq1938
Dec 7th 2011, 11:04 PM
Well is he had not been raised where would his soul still have been? Dead in Hades. Just as Peter said David was on that day of Pentecost. Both dead and buried, soul and body.

His soul was never dead.

Butch5
Dec 8th 2011, 02:09 AM
Did it have a name?


Hi Percho,

To my knowledge it was referred to as the place of torment. If it had a name I'm not aware of it.

percho
Dec 8th 2011, 05:11 AM
His soul was never dead.

Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Who and what is him?
1 Cor. 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: Just what of Christ was resurrected from the dead?
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
1 Cor. 15:3 how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; Was this the living soul Christ or someone else?
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This resurrection is from the dead isn't it?

Would you say the following verse hints at both soul and body?
1 Cor. 15:35 But some will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36; fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: (What was sowed?) 38; But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. (What is the it that is given a body?)

ewq1938
Dec 8th 2011, 05:16 AM
Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Who and what is him?
1 Cor. 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: Just what of Christ was resurrected from the dead?
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
1 Cor. 15:3 how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; Was this the living soul Christ or someone else?
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This resurrection is from the dead isn't it?

Nothing says his soul died. The concept is completely ridiculous. His human body died ONLY, nothing else died.

david
Dec 8th 2011, 05:28 AM
Nothing says his soul died. The concept is completely ridiculous. His human body died ONLY, nothing else died.

just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. John 10:15
Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. John 10:17


I don't think it is completely ridiculous; the "life" words above refer to the psuche life, or soul life.

ewq1938
Dec 8th 2011, 05:35 AM
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. John 10:15
Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. John 10:17


I don't think it is completely ridiculous; the "life" words above refer to the psuche life, or soul life.

It refers to human life, not the life of the literal soul. Christ laid down the life of his human body. Death of the soul is the second death, the punishment of the wicked.

david
Dec 8th 2011, 05:48 AM
It refers to human life, not the life of the literal soul. Christ laid down the life of his human body. Death of the soul is the second death, the punishment of the wicked.
if you check the greek for life in those verses i showed you you'll find that i'm right.

i think death of soul and perishing of soul might be different. perishing of soul might mean it's completely erased, but death of soul is like dying to your sins, as in this verse:
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

compare that verse with this
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

i think those are two different things, being destroyed and dying.

ewq1938
Dec 8th 2011, 05:51 AM
if you check the greek for life in those verses i showed you you'll find that i'm right.

I know what the greek says, you are still incorrect.



And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

i think those are two different things, being destroyed and dying.

Jesus' soul never died. That verse shows that only the wicked's soul shall die.

percho
Dec 8th 2011, 05:54 AM
It refers to human life, not the life of the literal soul. Christ laid down the life of his human body. Death of the soul is the second death, the punishment of the wicked.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Literally to die you shall die or dying thou dost die.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
The son of God came just as Adam was created and breathed into, a living soul subject to the death of a soul that had sinned. He, Jesus was without sin therefore able by death to pay the penalty for sinful souls.

Isa 53:12 because he hath poured out his soul unto death:

ewq1938
Dec 8th 2011, 05:57 AM
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Literally to die you shall die or dying thou dost die.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
The son of God came just as Adam was created and breathed into, a living soul subject to the death of a soul that had sinned. He, Jesus was without sin therefore able by death to pay the penalty for sinful souls.

Isa 53:12 because he hath poured out his soul unto death:

Cool, I might want to post random verses that don't support my claims too.

david
Dec 8th 2011, 06:01 AM
I know what the greek says, you are still incorrect.

"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. John 10:17

My life - ψυχήν - psuchēn- 5590- breath,- the soul

ewq1938
Dec 8th 2011, 06:03 AM
"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. John 10:17

My life - ψυχήν - psuchēn- 5590- breath,- the soul

G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
Thayer Definition:
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a1b) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5594
Citing in TDNT: 9:608, 1342

Rightly understanding what is being said is key here.

david
Dec 8th 2011, 06:12 AM
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
Thayer Definition:
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a1b) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5594
Citing in TDNT: 9:608, 1342

Rightly understanding what is being said is key here.
Ok if you think it simply means breath that's fine. Just a reminder that body is soma, psuche is soul, and pneuma is spirit. (but pneuma and psuche both may be rendered breath apparently)

ewq1938
Dec 8th 2011, 06:15 AM
Ok if you think it simply means breath that's fine. Just a reminder that body is soma, psuche is soul, and pneuma is spirit. (but pneuma and psuche both may be rendered breath apparently)

The only part of Christ that died was his human life. His soul and his spirit did not die and cannot because he is God.

percho
Dec 8th 2011, 06:45 AM
Nothing says his soul died. The concept is completely ridiculous. His human body died ONLY, nothing else died.

Every one of those verses say his soul died.

Answer each question in my posts.

ewq1938
Dec 8th 2011, 06:48 AM
Every one of those verses say his soul died.

Answer each question in my posts.

No verse says his soul died. List your questions in the next post and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

percho
Dec 8th 2011, 07:33 AM
Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Who and what is him?
1 Cor. 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: Just what of Christ was resurrected from the dead?
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
1 Cor. 15:3 how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; Was this the living soul Christ or someone else?
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This resurrection is from the dead isn't it?

Would you say the following verse hints at both soul and body?
1 Cor. 15:35 But some will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36; fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: (What was sowed?) 38; But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. (What is the it that is given a body?)

7 ? I think

I'm going to bed will ck back tomorrow. thanks

ewq1938
Dec 8th 2011, 07:41 AM
Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Who and what is him?
1 Cor. 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: Just what of Christ was resurrected from the dead?
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
1 Cor. 15:3 how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; Was this the living soul Christ or someone else?
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This resurrection is from the dead isn't it?

Would you say the following verse hints at both soul and body?
1 Cor. 15:35 But some will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36; fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: (What was sowed?) 38; But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. (What is the it that is given a body?)

7 ? I think

I'm going to bed will ck back tomorrow. thanks

Nope .

John 8:32
Dec 8th 2011, 12:08 PM
No verse says his soul died. List your questions in the next post and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

So only the hull that carried His soul died? He didn't really die? Kind of like a snake shedding it's skin?

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Naw, He was stone cold dead.

ewq1938
Dec 8th 2011, 08:17 PM
So only the hull that carried His soul died? He didn't really die? Kind of like a snake shedding it's skin?

That is what dying is. Only a part of us die. It's the second death where everything dies. And yes, very much like a snake shedding it's a skin because when you die, you are reborn in a new born.




Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Naw, He was stone cold dead.

Only his body. Christ was alive and preaching the gospel during those 3 days.

percho
Dec 8th 2011, 09:50 PM
Nope .

Good. Study those questions and scriptures with your copy of the Word of God asking for guidance of the HS.

John 8:32
Dec 9th 2011, 03:04 PM
Souls can and do die, the concept of an immortal soul comes from this…

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

What did God say?

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

The word perish…

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Same word here for perish, G622 – apollumi

Where is David, a man after God’s own heart, today?

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Do you believe what Paul says…

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Word for death here is…

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Paul taught a resurrection of the dead…

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Word for dead…

G3498
νεκρός
nekros
nek-ros'
From an apparently primary word νέκυς nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun): - dead.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Word for death…

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
The word for dead is G3498 – nekros, same as verse 20.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Word for die is…

G599
ἀποθνήσκω
apothnēskō
ap-oth-nace'-ko
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively): - be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Word for dead is G3498 – nekros, the same as 1 Cor 15:20 & 21

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Word for die is G599 – apothnesko, same as 1 Cor 15:22

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Died in the faith, but have not received the promises yet. The word for died is G599 – apothnesko, same as 1 Cor 15:22 and Heb 9:27.

Souls die, Bible says so. What then is a soul?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Word for soul is…

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Now man is a breathing creature, that's what a soul is. What other creatures are souls?
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Word life is a compound of H5315 - nephesh and…

H2416
חי
chay
khah'ee
From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Word for creature is H5315 – nephesh. Things that live in the ocean, whales, fish, oyster, clams, crabs, etc. are souls. Are they immortal souls?

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Creeping things on the land are, you guessed it, H5315 – nephesh, souls. Are rabbits and skunks and lizards immortal souls?

Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Life is again a compound of H5315 – nephesh and H2416 – chay.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Creature is H5315 – nephesh.

What then is a soul? A soul is a breathing creature that can die and just like Rover, when it dies, it dies all over. There is nothing immortal about a soul. This is why Paul says…

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That sin earns death, but life is a gift of God.

fewarechosen
Dec 10th 2011, 05:17 PM
the flesh we are wearing is proof of our death, our soul died from the fruit of knowledge of good and evil and now we are stuck in the dirt to bear the indignation of the lord for we have sinned against him.

the Holy Spirit can enter your soul here and "quicken" it, which is to give it life, the very spirit of life sets up its abode in you and "raises" your soul from the dead. Christ was raised and revived, i speak of only raised.

your flesh will never live, it is by very definition death but the seed of life can live within you.

ProjectPeter
Dec 10th 2011, 05:27 PM
Keeping it simple... Judgment... Heaven... or Hell.

percho
Dec 12th 2011, 04:59 AM
Keeping it simple... Judgment... Heaven... or Hell.

Or
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 9:27

ProjectPeter
Dec 12th 2011, 01:55 PM
Or
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 9:27
Pretty simple!

Lone Arranger
Dec 15th 2011, 08:51 PM
Heaven is a temporary dwelling place for the saved, just as hell is a temporary dwelling place for the unsaved awaiting judgment.

Before the resurrection the abode of the dead was divided into two parts. What was referred to as Abraham's bosom for the saved, and Hades for the unsaved (Luke chapter 16). Bear in mind that no saved human could ascend to Heaven until after the sacrificial death of Christ. You will read in Matthew about how the righteous dead arose after the crucifixion (Matt 27:52-53).

At the harpazo all dead Christians will be given immortal bodies and raised to God's throne along with all living Christians who will also be given immortal bodies (see John 14:3 and Rev 3:10). At the end of God's wrath/the tribulation we will return with Christ when He returns to earth to set up His millennial Kingdom (see Rev 19:7-9 and Rev 9:14). This is the fulfillment of the Lord's prayer (and many promises made to the Jews in the Old Testament), "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." We, with Christ, will rule over living people who will have survived the tribulation/day of God's wrath - they will still be in flesh and blood bodies, will marry, have children, etc. (Rev 20:4). At the end of the millennium Satan is loosed for a brief period so that those who have never had the opportunity to chose to accept Christ or follow Satan will have that opportunity (likely billions of people).

After that death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire, the final abode of the lost of all time (Rev 20: 10-15). The saved of all time will dwell with Christ in the new (or refurbished) heaven and earth (read Rev chapters 21-22). The bible doesn't specifically say what becomes of what we now think of as heaven/the throne of God. It's clear the New Jerusalem, which is our future home, descends from it; and an interesting clue is found in Rev 22:1 which states that the throne of God and of the Lamb is in the New Jerusalem which is now on earth or (having descended from Heaven) is suspended somewhere above it.

So neither heaven nor hell (as we think of them now) will exist at the culmination of all things.